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Traditionalism Rising, Part V: The Problem of Politics
I'll conclude my time here discussing my new draft on traditionalism with the problem of traditionalism's politics. The problem is pressing because of internecine political discontent that now seems to afflict originalism, in whose shadow traditionalism at present stands. But it is also vital because all interpretive methods have a politics: they may be motivated by a particular set of political commitments; or they may lead systematically to outcomes with a particular political valence; or the adherents of the method may tend to come from a particular political perspective; or some combination of these. Interpretive methods are of course more than their politics, but in this post, I am focusing on this feature of them. To understand traditionalism's politics, it may be helpful to set it in relief against the politics of originalism against which it is emerging.
In its early years, originalism as a sociological movement was a response to the liberal-progressive legal politics that came to dominate constitutional law in the twentieth century. For first-wave originalists, the jurisprudence of the Warren Court was felt to be incompatible with conventional lawyerly craft and led systematically to undesirable political outcomes. Yet as originalists came to suspect that a direct assault on the citadel constructed by the Warren and Burger Courts might backfire, they pivoted to offer an interpretive program that appeared politically neutral and might not be dismissed as mere political tit-for-tat.
As originalism's second wave accelerated, however, the politics of its adherents changed as well, attracting more libertarian and progressive scholars. Methodologically, the second wave no longer conceived constitutional law as the search for the lawmaker's will, but as a quest for the meaning of the Constitution's words. With its constitutionalism of semantics, methods, conventions, and most recently computerized linguistic corpora, originalism hoped to offer something apolitical.
But politics could not be so easily outrun. At first, originalism's positivism, and its putative rejection of politics, was a way of inscribing a fusionist alliance of libertarianism and conservativism into the constitutional realm. The illusion of originalism's political neutrality, however, could last only as long as the subscribing constituencies sensed that they were equal partners in a strategic alliance of method. As fusionism began to unbind, as originalism attracted progressive adherents, and as social conservatives' sense of embattlement and of the consistent failure to win critical cases increased, originalism's political denialism became less tenable.
Did all that change in the 2021 term, in which ostensibly conservative outcomes prevailed in some of the perennial political hothouses of constitutional law?
In part, that depends upon the extent to which originalists claim the Court's output. There are significant disagreements about that. In part, it depends upon whether the decisions really are originalist. On various metrics, they may not be. But it may also, finally, depend upon how originalists understand and present the politics of their method. In rejecting the Court's output (or perhaps in concurring specially in selected results), some originalists might insist that originalism does have a politics—the politics of classical liberalism, libertarianism, progressivism, or something else not conservative—and that these politics were not reflected in (some of) the Court's key decisions. Another approach might be to persist in denying that originalism has any politics. Originalists might reject the term's cases as non-originalist—or perhaps as "bad" originalism—because they are politically motivated, or because they fail on a technical metric of originalism, or something like this. But this response would ignore the reason for the rising discontent with originalism: the unbinding of fusionism in the political culture and its effect on the constituency that once supported originalism.
Indeed, perhaps frustrated by a perceived divorce of interpretive technique from politics, some legal conservatives (especially younger ones) have begun to invest intellectual resources in alternatives. One of the most prominent is "common good constitutionalism," which, as Adrian Vermeule describes it, holds that the "sweeping generalities and famous ambiguities of our Constitution afford ample space for substantive moral readings that promote peace, justice, abundance, health, and safety, by means of just authority, solidarity, and subsidiarity." One of the felt attractions of such an approach is that it reorients constitutional discourse in an expressly political direction, returning it to the classical legal tradition for guidance. Already, common good constitutionalism has generated many critiques, and it has pushed some originalists to formulate their own political premises more explicitly. It is a time of significant political ferment for conservative constitutionalism.
Traditionalism, too, reflects a response to the present political moment. Unlike both originalism and common good constitutionalism, the politics of traditionalism ought to relate in some way to the enduring practices that sit at the method's core. Also perhaps unlike these others, traditionalism's ground-up approach assumes that constitutional interpretation and adjudication proceed small bore, in cases and controversies that involve ordinary details and the mundane facts of Americans' lives. Traditionalism asks us to recall that ours is a constitutionalism of things: banks, religious observances and symbols, families, homes, businesses, guns, countless varieties of human relationships, voting procedures, schools, contracts and property arrangements, wills, government policies and programs of many sorts, and sundry political and cultural practices.
The preservation of the enduring practices of the past, practices that have given people's lives structure, meaning, and worth, motivates traditionalist interpretation. Often such a politics would be what many consider conservative, but it might be politically unconventional as well. It is preservative and custodial, and while it might interest some conservatives, it might also appeal to political progressives concerned about the displacement of communities, customs, and ways of life.
Consider traditionalism's politics in what might seem an unlikely area: civil procedure. Traditionalism might be the custodian of enduring practices reflecting the constitutional sensus fidelium of what is just and right in, for example, a state's power to compel a defendant—whether an individual or a multinational corporation—to answer for wrongs done to the community. Or consider free speech. Speech that wantonly disgraces military valor, attacks families grieving at the funerals of their loved ones, floods communities with commercial messaging that degrades common spaces, inundates children in blood-soaked forms of entertainment—state regulation of these might be preserved by the traditionalist judge as civic expressions of an enduring, healthy, moral and political ecology against the onslaught of those in the grips of a destructive vision of freedom.
Not all traditions will be worthy of preservation and continued custody, and it will require elaboration of the justifications I discussed in an earlier post (or others) to determine which should endure. But many should, and many urgently require a concerted defense and reconstruction. To the extent that a revitalized constitutionalism is possible today, it will depend upon interpreting the words of the Constitution with an eye to the sustenance, custody, and conservation of these old and enduring ways of doing and being.
Traditionalism, perhaps unlike some of its rivals, proceeds toward the common good inductively and from the ground up. The freedoms we enjoy, the obligations we are bound by, and the goods we pursue are intimated in our concrete experience of them as they exist in our world. Traditionalism therefore takes an oblique approach to the common good. It finds its way bit by interpretive bit into an older metaphysics of law now largely lost to us.
Rediscovering the role of justice, freedom, security, prudence, human well-being, and others, as well as their relationship to one another in law, is an important and necessary political project. But it may be that, perhaps unlike in centuries past, the line of causation in their rediscovery, at least in constitutional interpretation and adjudication, will run today from the particular to the general. The extent to which courts might encourage and promote the rediscovery of the political virtues of American constitutional law will depend upon whether they can protect and cultivate the sustaining traditions of the past within the compass and limits of their office. As Dante learned when he was suddenly struck blind by the brilliance of the face of St. John, the metaphysics may come easier with time, patience, and enduring practice.
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It’s now clear that what Professor Derivolami means by traditionalism is totally different from the references to “history and tradition” in few Supreme Court opinions, mainly ones interpreting Due Process (especially rejecting an expansive interpretation of what used to be called privacy) plus more recent ones on the 2nd Amendment.
Instead, an academic movement is being discussed that has a much broader scope. What is this movement? Perhaps it might have been best to introduce the movement and key participants, papers, and tenets at the beginning, rather than simply assuming its existwnce, nature, and scope is known and proceeding to discuss issues.
It's funny how Prof. Degirolami's traditionalism - specifically US constitutionalism - was actually a step AWAY from traditional, contemporary forms of government, e.g. monarchies, theologies, city-states, etc.
It's like we ignored the old traditions and made new traditions.
And now that he's on the losing side, he wants us to adhere to 19th century norms and doesn't want to allow us to make new traditions.
Perhaps he should conclude (and bury), the entire thesis.
So-called "progressives" are not making new norms, they are reverting to ancient ones. It is out with the new and in with the hold.
*the old
Hold works -- getting in the way of business is the primary way to extract donations and "donations" and curiously high-paying jobs for kids and the wonderful, profound mysteries of elected officials' spouses becoming the Gregory House, MDs, of investing.
"as originalism attracted progressive adherents,"
I don't think that's quite what happened. Or at least, it's a misleading way of describing what happened.
What actually happened is that 'progressives' noticed that originalism had a good reputation with the public, and decided that "the long march through the institutions" had to include originalism.
So they set out to take it over from the inside. Balkin's "Living originalism" is best understood, not as an effort to practice originalism, but instead as an effort to subvert it, render it just another flavor of living constitutionalism.
Rather like 'progressives' managed to subvert 'liberalism' in the early 20th century, forcing actual liberals to start calling themselves 'classical liberals' or "libertarians."
". . . take it over from the inside."
As opposed to your side's tactics of storming from the outside.
Fabianism is alive and well on the left, though I get the impression that sheep's skin is starting to chafe.
Oh. I see. The One True Originalism only produces results you like.
I don't have to like the results. Originalism is what the Constitution means whether I happen to like it or not.
You can't get over your absolute conviction that there's nothing but outcome oriented reasoning going on here. You're guilty of it, so everybody must be.
But, yeah, the new originalism is increasingly just living constitutionalism with an originalist sheep's skin hiding the wolf within.
I see. Only those who disagree with you are outcome-oriented.
Brett, you are so convinced you just know the truth you can't see your own biases.
I appreciate Brett's contributions here, but in this case it's at such a level of generality as to be worthless. Originalism is what the Constitution means. That's fine, but empty. The current argument, practically, is about what it means.
Are you a fellow birther, or just a disaffected, obsolete wingnut?
I'm sorry, Arthur, but I don't understand the genesis of your question. Is it because I appreciate Brett's contributions, as I do yours and others? Since the rest of my comment assumes that his comment is of little value, that must be it but I'd like to be sure.
Marc, I get the distinct impression that your work on this topic suffers from a near-total lack of critical viewpoints. This all reads as though it's written for an audience more or less amenable to your position. Obvious objections aren't anticipated or foreclosed, and there's a fundamental lack of rigor in developing your position analytically, your high-fallutin' language notwithstanding.
Here, for instance, you promise to discuss the "problem of politics" in the context of traditionalism, but at no point do you clearly lay out what you mean by this, or what the "problem of politics" means for "traditionalism" as a theory of constitutional interpretation. Are you talking about the internecine conflict between originalist, common-good constitutionalist, and traditionalist camps, within the conservative legal community? The "politics" of appointing judges and judicial legitimacy if "traditionalism" guides more than a few important Supreme Court rulings? The inherent political valences of "traditionalist" holdings? It seems like you could be talking about any of these things, with nothing clearly to say about any of them.
"Traditionalism" will always read as "conservative" as long as it purports to be based on an interest in protecting "enduring practices" but hyperopically looks beyond the immediate past and current cultural conditions for the relevant contextualizing "traditions." It will always read as "activist" - and so threaten the legitimacy of the judicial system - if it rather transparently ignores important traditions that have emerged from more recent constitutional practices, in favor of other traditions that existed prior to those interpretations. And it will (hopefully) fail, politically, if the main proponents of the method tend to be Catholic professors at Catholic institutions who have a funny way of talking about legal philosophy without acknowledging their prior commitments to a religious metaphysics of law, which screws with their methodology in ways that they don't themselves seem to recognize.
I, myself, am not totally set against the idea that "traditions" can and perhaps should inform how the courts interpret statutes and constitutional provisions. But where this whole argument goes off the rails is when you divorce the normative justification for traditionalism from its analysis. If we, as a society, have an interest in preserving "enduring practices," that interest rather obviously seems to be in today's enduring practices, not those of fifty, one hundred, or even one hundred fifty years ago, which have been left off quite naturally by our society - and certainly not some cherry-picked, syncretic "enduring practice" derived from various historical periods since the country's founding.
For instance, a century of economic development and prosperity have brought us to a position where most of us can leave our homes and travel without needing to worry about our personal safety - and so, without the need to carry firearms for our self-defense. Nearly a century of Supreme Court holdings have established a broad freedom of speech that enables us to do things like leave snarky comments pseudonymously online without fear of criminal or civil liability. Half a century of Supreme Court holdings has (or had) established a general right to privacy that meant that we could make our own decisions about our bodies, how to use them, what medical procedures to undergo, etc., as well as a general expectation that, when we travel between states, our parental and familial rights will not vary according to which state we happen to be in.
Where does "traditionalism" take us, on each of those points? If the answer is, back to the wild west days of the 19th century, when only a fool would travel unarmed, and to the days when states generally saw no issue with regulating public morality directly - with implications for interstate travel, which was perhaps less of a primary concern in the days before the automobile - then it seems bizarre to call this "traditionalism." It's nothing of the sort. It's revanchism.
Simon, you need to follow the science. The political science. Don't attack the science.
it seems bizarre to call this "traditionalism." It's nothing of the sort. It's revanchism.
Correct. One problem here is that many "traditions" were formed at times when significant groups were excluded from the formation process. They might look quite different otherwise.
So? Even from this approach, text trumps 'tradition', if the current majority don't like the Constitution as it is, they're free to change it, and even 'traditionalist' judges have to bow to Article V.
You can't just posit that a changed electorate agrees with your preferred constitution. Prove it by amending the actual words to mean what you want them to mean.
I say you don't want to use Article V because you'd fail that proof test, your preferred meaning doesn't have that support.
Prove me wrong.
So you're into Textualism now?
Framework Originalism
Intrinsicist Originalism
Instrumental Originalism
Liquidated Originalism
Original Intent
Original Meaning
Original Methods Originalism
Original Public Meaning
Semantic Originalism
Structuralism
Textualism
So?
Brett, this conversation is beyond you.
It is a bit silly here to say that "text trumps tradition," because the whole point of this series of posts is to walk through a theory of textual interpretation. We're not talking about ignoring the text and imposing somehow a set of legal rules that are consistent with so-called "traditional practices." We're talking about referring to "traditions" to make sense of "texts."
To assert that texts have a meaning that can in some sense "trump" that kind of interpretation is largely to beg the question. You're inserting another layer of constitutional interpretation without acknowledging it or justifying its primacy over "traditionalism."
Bernard's point about the exclusion of communities is relevant, insofar as the normative justification for "traditionalism," according to Marc, is its preservation of "enduring practices" that societies tend to value. If it becomes clear that you're making some kind of sotto voce distinction between the traditions of one segment of society and the traditions of society as a whole - which may cohere together, or may not - then the normative case that Marc has made seems exceedingly hollow.
It's like saying "separate but equal" worked out pretty well for white people, so it should be consistent with how we interpret the Equal Protection Clause today.
I'm a pastor, so this discussion is way beyond me at a variety of levels. I recognize, though the similarities between interpreting the text of the Constitution and the various hermeneutical approaches to the Bible. "God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me" makes a nice gospel song, but isn't helpful when you're working through a text and trying to decide it's meaning, let alone it's application. The Constitutional literalism that some espouse is similar to Biblical literalism, and begs just as many questions.
Brett, this is nothing but "Nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, amend the Constitution if you don't like it," response.
And, "Nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, amend the Constitution if you don't like it." is a perfectly reasonable position.
The Constitution that got ratified, as amended, IS the Constitution we have. If you don't like it, amend it.
Failure to attempt amending it amounts to an admission that you know the changes you want aren't popular.
Failure to attempt amending it amounts to an admission that you know the changes you want aren't popular.
Oh bullshit.
You know perfectly well that amending the Constitution is extremely difficult. A proposal that has, say, 70% support nationwide might easily fail. All the more so if the 30% opposition is concentrated in the privileged states.
Stop telling me it's raining.
If a proposal has even 55% support nationwide, and that support is uniformly distributed, every member of Congress, every state legislator, will find that 55% of their constituents support it, and it will be a slam dunk.
If a proposal has 70% support, but that support is unevenly distributed, you could easily get a situation where a third of Congressmen and state legislators find their constituents overwhelmingly favor it, but most find that it's relatively unpopular.
IOW, the system is designed to probe whether a proposal is widely popular, or has only localized appeal. A perfectly reasonable standard for amendments to the constitution of a federation of sovereign states.
Historically speaking, no amendment has failed ratification for the reason you suggest, it is merely a theoretical possiblity.
The real issue is that members of Congress are no longer very representative of the general population in terms of their personal opinions, and so have no interest in originating amendments that would actually be popular, and know better than to send the amendments they WOULD like to the states to be overwhelmingly defeated.
But that doesn't change the fact that you demonstrate a change is popular by votes on a formal amendment, not by simply asserting its popularity.
I suggest we have a constitutional convention to bypass Congress, and see whose ideas are really popular.
IOW, the system is designed to probe whether a proposal is widely popular,
Yes, and that's a serious defect, especially since "widely" here means geographically widely, and nothing else. When it comes to affirmative action or whatever you hate the idea of some group getting disproportionate benefits, but if it's geographical diversity that's being privileged you just love it to death.
Anyway, you well know that the support is never going to be uniformly distributed, and if there are enough places where the proposal has only 45% support it will fail.
So again, stop the BS.
It seems evident that a lot would remain implicit in any analysis of historical "traditions." The problem is related to the "level of generality" problem Marc discussed in an earlier post (where he waves off the problem as not unique to "traditionalism," without apparently acknowledging that the nature of "traditionalism" makes it particularly vulnerable to a "level of generality" objection), but it is distinct.
For instance, if you were to ask what the "traditional" family looks like, the most common reference point in modern political discourse would be to some hazy recollection of the 1950s - i.e., one man, one woman, married, with the man generally being the "breadwinner" and the woman being in charge of domestic responsibilities. We can imagine various ways in which we might re-think our constitutional traditions if we were to take that as an "enduring practice" worthy of preservation.
The problem with that approach - setting aside that it's not horribly accurate in itself, and also bracketing the fact that women didn't have much say in developing those practices in the first place - is that it takes as granted various background legal, cultural and economic conditions that no longer hold, and have not held, for some time. The nature of work has changed, our economy has become more international, wages have not kept up with inflation, the post-war period in particular had features that helped support an unsustainable period of suburbanization alongside economic growth, etc. While there may be merits in that kind of family organization, we can't simply pretend in modern contexts that it exists today and interpret the Constitution accordingly.
That example is a bit provincial and cartoonish, so perhaps it's not germane to the actual "traditionalist" argument. (I would hope not!) But the same kinds of arguments would apply to any historical traditions that we hope would inform modern-day constitutional interpretation. Traditions arise within economic, cultural and legal conditions that are particular to those traditions. Those traditions might make sense in those conditions, and the fact that they generally do underlies Marc's whole normative argument. But you often won't be able to recreate those conditions through constitutional interpretation; that being the case, when and why would those traditions be relevant at all?
Perhaps a perfect example of this can be seen when considering the constitutionality of the regulation of sodomy. The modern notion of sexual identity just didn't exist in the nineteenth century. So the regulation of sodomy, in the nineteenth century, would have been just a regulation of sexual mores, akin to the regulation of adultery, bestiality, or pedophilia, without any special implication for any particular group of people. Yes, you might have been somewhat more inclined to engage in same-sex sodomy than others, but that wasn't a part of your identity. You probably were married to someone of the opposite sex and got whatever sodomy you wanted with someone of the same sex on the side. It wouldn't make sense to say, of anyone then, that they were "straight" or "gay" or "bisexual" or anything else.
So what sense does it make, now, when sexual orientation is recognized as something that is relatively fixed in people and not a cause for moral ostracism, to regulate sodomy the way we did then? Why should our modern constitutional interpretation be tied to a cultural, economic, and legal context that we haven't had for more than a hundred years? Or, if we don't choose that tradition (I select the nineteenth century practices only because nineteenth century practices are taken by this Court as relevant to the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment), which tradition do we choose, and how do we pass the relevant traditions through a modern lens, for purposes of constitutional interpretation?
Seen in comparison, the silly kinds of dictionary-diving that happens when trying to tease out the "original public meaning" of a text seems downright straightforward.
" One problem here is that many "traditions" were formed at times when significant groups were excluded from the formation process. "
You contend that is a problem.
Right-wing bigots -- most fans of a white, male, conservative blog that regularly publishes racial slurs, for example -- consider it a reason for celebration.
The problem is broader than either you or I stated it. The good Professor Degirolami doesn’t explain what he means by ANY of the concepts that he discusses. He proceeds, on everything, assuming the audience is both completely familiar with the subject and completely synpathetic to his point of view. So non-insiders remain on the outside, practically as unaware of what is being talked about as when the good professor began.
This means we can’t even criticize fairly. Regarding your “revanchism” etc. comment, your criticism may be just as off-point as the criticism I gave on his earlier posts based on what I mistakenly thought he meant. How can we give any sort of fair or useful criticism when we still don’t really know what he’s talking about?
your high-fallutin' language notwithstanding.
Indeed. The language is almost unreadable.
Looks like about a thousand words or more—on the subjects of originalism and traditionalism—without even a single mention of the word, "history." How can you even do that? Only, I think, with a single-minded focus on other subjects entirely.
What seems to be going on is an attempt—on behalf of traditionalism and originalism both—to claim for judges and lawyers the respect which the historical discipline won for consideration of the past. The method appears to be to invent from scratch parallel disciplines, controlled entirely by lawyers, who are to be left free to use made-up allegations, in pursuit of present-minded goals, without any systematic regard at all for what actually happened in the past. All of that gets treated as unwanted baggage and inconvenient constraint.
What the lawyers want from history is the intellectual respectability the discipline's best practitioners earned for their activity by systematic, disinterested inquiry; what the lawyers seem determined to discard is everything else.
" Rediscovering the role of justice, freedom, security, prudence, human well-being, and others, as well as their relationship to one another in law, is an important and necessary political project. "
Pining for illusory "good old days" is paltry stuff.
A Fantasy Marketplace Of Ideas would be a great place to test traditionalism, or the contention that 'people (who had less information and experience) have long done it this way (or close to this way)' is a persuasive argument.
This being football season, I envision an 11-on-11 match at the hall of great debate.
On one side would be Prof. Marc DeGirolami and his choice of assembled traditionalists.
I would draft this team for the other (non-traditionalism) side of the debate:
Giordano Bruno
Nicolaus Copernicus
Charles Darwin
Albert Einstein
Galileo Galilei
James Hutton
Mondino de Luzzi
Isaac Newton
Muhammad ibn Zakariya Rasi (Rhazes)
Ignaz Semmelweis
Michael Servetus
As always, may the better ideas win!
(If Prof. DeGirolami is wondering where he might find enough advocates willing to try to defend traditionalism, this seems a fine place to recruit plenty of traditionalists.)
Copernicus and Galilleo labored under government thugs who ordered them to shut the hell up.
Why are you helping their oppressors?
By offering an easy opportunity for Copernicus and Galileo to kick every bit of the shit out of today's traditionalists?
Copernicus and Galilleo labored under government thugs
Well, Copernicus' ideas weren't popular with the Church, but I don't think he was ever personally told to shut up.
Galileo of course was threatened with punishment, but it was by the Church, not "government thugs." Kind of dangerous to give religious organizations political power, don't you think? They tend to be rigid, and traditionalist, in their thinking.
Maybe Prof. DeGirolami could field Tolsani and Spina on the traditionalism team, to try to finally discredit Copernicus and all of this new-fangled, anti-tradition, fancy, anti-religion science!
The only rational lens to view any interpretive scheme under is the same one the Founding Fathers used when creating the Constitution: a viable government framework that stops weasels from growing their own power at their own whim, sans supermajority approval of it.
They did not envision no change, but merely recognized sordid, mass murderous human history when this goes unchecked. Simple, transient majorities are no barrier against this; indeed, it is the charismatic demagogue's one true superpower. It's like asking Carl Lewis to long jump 4 feet.
I’ll repeat a comment made several times previously.
A number of European countries have maintained systems that have high taxes and spending, and some degree of featherbedding. They may not have the best or most efficient governments. Their societies may not be the freest possible But there doesn’t seem to be evidence of mass murder, tyrrany, and similar horribles. Their suboptimality comes in fairly mild ways. And many people prefer the quality of life they experience to life in countries with less regulation, taxing, spending, and social services.
Simply associating taxing, spending, regulation, and other policies you don’t like or find burdensome with a parade of horribles like mass murder and tyrrany may make for stirring rhetoric, but it just doesn’t seem to hold up under empirical evidence. One can only compare (say) a European country’s social medicine system to Stalin if one has no clue what life under Stalin was like. Sure, rich people can’t get as advanced or as good care, there are wait lists for expensive services. But most people seem to get better care, and this means that life spans tend to be longer and quality of life higher on average. And drawbacks like not being able to get the most advanced cancer treatment at end of life so easily is just not the same thing as mass starvation, mass murder, mass imprisonment, and mass fear.
At some point, rhetoric has to put up or shut up. At some point, you can’t just believe whatever you want because it sounds nice or it’s in your interest to do so. You have to pay at least some attention to the empirical evidence.
The federal spending clause goves Congress broad authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, permitting it to create a European style social seevice system if it wants. It may be a good idea. It may be a bad isea. But the idea that it’s a road that inevitably leads to mass murder is just nonsense. It’s like saying all religion is dangerous and should be banned because the crusades, 30 years war, etc.
The fact is, tyrants and mass murderers do what they so in the name of the ideology of the day. It just has nothing to do with the ideology du jour that they espouse. Before socialism became chic, they were perfectly happy to do it in the name of religion, social darwinism, and plenty of other isms. The fact that Buddhists are persecuting Moslems in Burma in the supposed name of Buddha’s principles of universal peace and brotherhood illustrates the point all to well. Bullshit. Would-be tyramts be just as happy to murder and oppress in the name of your prefered ideology too as any other, if they think doing so will get them followers.
+100
Traditionalism makes little sense to me when so much of what was “traditional” in the 1780s and 1860s is inconsistent with contemporary morals. For example, Matthew Hale (quoted in Dobbs) though witch burning and marital rape were “traditional.” So of course were slavery, racial segregation, and treating women as second class citizens without rights. One might argue that the reason the ERA was never adopted was that the Supreme Court interpreted the Equal Protection Clause to require equal treatment for women in most instances, making the ERA unnecessary. And Congress passed a statutory fix when the Court that discriminating against pregnant people on the job was not sex discrimination.
There is a dialectic at work here, and a Supreme Court decision favorable to the right wing does not end the debate, as we see from Dobbs. If the right wing position is that abortion should be illegal even if the pregnant person is a ten year old child or a woman who has breast cancer and will be more likely to live in chemo starts now rather than 7 months from now, the right wing may discover that they are in fact a political minority and they may well lose at the ballot box.
But of course those are not most conservatives' positions, so: never mind.
abortion should be illegal even if the pregnant person is a ten year old child or a woman who has breast cancer and will be more likely to live in chemo starts now rather than 7 months from now,
That sure sounds like the conservative position to me.
Degirolami makes progress, but just can't to the end.
Primarily, any "revolutions" have involved ideological shifts in the Supreme court. Lots of us here applaud the 2022 shift.
Secondarily, sure, putting some kind of lingerie over naked politics can make it prettier.
" Lots of us here applaud the 2022 shift. "
Indeed. The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of The Wrong Side Of History And The Losing Side Of The Modern American Culture War.
That it is a white, male blog is the cherry atop that doomed sundae.
Carry on, clingers. Although you know how this turns out.
As even this post acknowledges, tradition is a mix of good and bad which must be judiciously distinguished; thus tradition per se is of little normative value. It is instead the principles used to *make* those distinctions which are truly important (and this is of course the case whether the ideas being evaluated are traditional or non traditional).
There are parallels here to appeals to Biblical authority. Like tradition, the Bible contains a mix of good, bad, indifferent, incoherent and truly abhorrent ideas. It is only through extra-Biblical normative distinctions that one can separate the good ideas from the bad (and of course few if any good ideas are unique to the Bible, and all *new* good ideas come from elsewhere).
Bible-thumpers and traditionalists each identify a certain deeply flawed package of ideas as deserving of special deference, when in fact membership in the package is pretty much orthogonal to an idea’s merits. Having thereby disabled the critical faculties of their acolytes, the thought leaders can then cherry pick the in-package ideas which best serve their agenda of the moment with a minimum of pesky interference.
tradition is a mix of good and bad which must be judiciously distinguished; thus tradition per se is of little normative value.
Yes.
It seems to have plenty of rhetorical value to conservatives.
But not nearly enough to diminish, let alone reverse, the longstanding, powerful tide of progress that will continue to prevail against traditionalism in America.