The Volokh Conspiracy
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Do the Supreme Court's Low Approval Ratings Show it is Undergoing a "Legitimacy Crisis"?
The Court's popularity has indeed fallen. But its relatively low approval ratings are neither unprecedented, nor worse than those of the other branches of government.

The Supreme Court's low approval ratings in the aftermath of the overruling of Roe v. Wade in the Dobbs decision has led some to claim that the institution is in a "legitimacy crisis" (e.g. here, here, and here). The Court is indeed less popular now than at most other times in the recent past. On the other hand, its popularity remains as high or higher than that of the other branches of government. And its current poll ratings are not significantly worse than they were on a number of previous occasions over the last twenty years. Thus, claims of a legitimacy crisis are, at the very least, premature.
In the long-running Gallup poll, the most widely cited measure of various institutions' popularity, the Supreme Court's approval rating stood at 43% in July, compared to 55% who disapprove. That's bad. But it's as good or better than the standing of the other two branches of government. Despite some recent improvement, President Biden's approval rating stands at an average of 42.5% in the 538 website's aggregation of polls. He has an average disapproval rating of 53%. Biden sits at 44% approval and 53% disapproval in the most recent Gallup poll. Congress's approval rating is chronically low, most recently clocking in at 17% in the same July poll that gave the Supreme Court its weak 43% rating.
If the Supreme Court's low ratings are enough to create a legitimacy crisis, Biden is in the same boat, and Congress is in far more dire straits than either. Biden's most likely 2024 opponent - Donald Trump - is even more unpopular than Biden himself. Thus, there is a good chance that the presidency will be held by an unpopular figure for years to come.
Of course Biden's popularity might increase. Perhaps even Congress might become more popular. But the same is true of the Supreme Court, which has a long history of bouncing back from negative public reaction to unpopular decisions.
It may be that Congress and the presidency are also facing a crisis of legitimacy. The generally low ratings of all three branches of government may be a sign of declining faith in institutions across the board. But, if so, it's not a problem specific to the Supreme Court, or primarily caused by its recent rulings. Moreover, the unpopularity of the president and Congress weakens their ability to curb the Court's power. In a confrontation between unpopular politicians and unpopular judges, the former could end up losing.
It is also worth recalling that the Court's current relatively low polling numbers are far from unprecedented. It's 43% approval rating today is very similar to the 42% rating (with 48% disapproving) it had in 2005, after the highly unpopular ruling in Kelo v. City of New London. But the Court's ratings soon recovered. I literally wrote the book on why Kelo was an awful ruling. But even I can't seriously claim that it did long-term damage to the Court's standing. The Court also stood at 42% (with 52% disapproval) in the summer of 2016 (a result possibly influenced by the Court's unpopular decision upholding racial preferences in college admissions that year). Again, it bounced back.
Perhaps this time the Court's popularity won't recover, or won't recover to the same extent. It is notable that this year's Gallup numbers are actually similar to those of last summer, when the Court was at 40%. But it is also likely that Dobbs and the negative reaction to it forestalled what would otherwise have been a gradual recovery from last year's low numbers. Such a gradual recovery could happen over the next year or two, as memories of Dobbs recede and public attention focuses on other issues.
Moreover, the numbers could easily go up if the Court makes popular decisions in prominent cases. That is likely to happen as soon as next year, when the Justices are expected to issue a high-profile ruling curbing racial preferences in higher education. Racial preferences in education are overwhelmingly unpopular, and majority public opinion would probably welcome a decision striking them down.
Another sign that the Court may not be facing much of a legitimacy crisis is that, even in the aftermath of Dobbs and other recent conservative rulings, most Democratic politicians are not advocating court-packing or other measures to curb the justices' power, as part of their platform for the upcoming 2022 election. Abortion is, of course, a major issue in the campaign. But measures to clip the wings of the Court are not. If the Court's legitimacy was as damaged as some claim, we should expect Democratic political strategists to seize on that fact, and exploit it. The decision of most of them not to do so is a notable dog that didn't bark - or at least isn't barking very much.
That doesn't mean the Court is entirely out of the political woods. The increasing polarization in perceptions of the Court - with only 28% of Democrats viewing it favorably, compared to 73% of Republicans - is a potential danger. Even if the Court's overall popularity isn't terrible, Democrats could potentially try to move against it, if their political base becomes angry enough.
A Democratic Congress could try to enact court-packing, or a Democratic president could choose to disobey rulings the party's supporters strongly disapprove of. Democrats might ask: If Republicans like Donald Trump can defy political norms and undermine the Constitution when they find it convenient to do so, why not us? I described such scenarios in a 2018 post, but also noted various obstacles to their occurrence. For the moment, nothing of the sort seems likely to happen in the short to medium term.
At the same time, however, court-packing has become a part of mainstream political discourse in a way that wasn't true five or ten years ago. The norm-breaking political behavior of the right has helped weaken norm-based taboos on the left. That doesn't mean court-packing is likely to happen. The odds are still against it, in my view. But it is a much more plausible scenario than it would have been if the idea had remained beyond the pale.
Some, of course, would argue that public opinion is irrelevant to legitimacy. What really determines the Court's legitimacy is not approval ratings, but the quality of its decisions. If you think Dobbs was a horrible ruling that indefensibly gutted a constitutional right, you probably believe that would still be true, even if majority public opinion welcomed the decision. The same goes for other Supreme Court decisions you might consider to be especially awful. Alternatively, maybe legitimacy depends on whether the Court uses the right methodology, such as originalism or living constitutionalism. A wrong decision may still be legitimate if the justices honestly tried to apply the right interpretive theory in the process of reaching it. But not if they reached it by using the "wrong" kind of reasoning.
This may be the correct normative approach to assessing the Court's rulings. I certainly agree that popular rulings are sometimes badly wrong, and unpopular ones right. I also think some methodologies are better than others.
But we should avoid conflating the legitimacy of the Court's decisions with their correctness. At least in one significant sense of the former term, it refers to the Court's political standing, rather than to the soundness of its rulings. In addition, if legitimacy just comes down to the correctness (or lack thereof) of the Court's rulings, then the former ceases to be a useful concept. Any debate over legitimacy will simply devolve into a debate about the quality of the Court's rulings or the soundness of its methodology.
Even if you don't care about the Court's standing for its own sake (I generally don't, myself!), it is important to remember that the Court must have at least some substantial political support in order to ensure that its rulings will be obeyed. As Alexander Hamilton famously wrote, the judiciary doesn't control either the government's "sword" or its "purse" and therefore depends on others to enforce its decisions. For that reason, among others, the Court's legitimacy - defined as its standing with public opinion - does make a difference. If the Court become unpopular enough, the other branches of government could move against it, or just simply ignore its decisions when they don't like the result.
While the Court's popularity has fallen, it has not gotten to the point where its political standing is seriously threatened. A legitimacy crisis could still occur in the future, especially if the justices' popularity declines still further. On the other hand, past history suggests that it could instead rise.
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"The norm-breaking political behavior of the right has helped weaken norm-based taboos on the left."
The cartel parties have been pulling this "look what you made you made me do!" crap since the beginning of the Republic. This is why they are desperate to throttle third parties, lest voters who tire of the Punch-and-Judy show try to find an alternative.
Not sure I agree with that. Third parties are on the ballot in most states and only rarely do they get more than one or two percent of the vote. If the voters want to vote third party there is nothing stopping them. They choose not to.
Many choose not to vote for third parties because they don't want to throw away their vote in the current plurality system. Ranked choice and similar instant runoff voting systems give people the opportunity to vote a third-party candidate who they truly would prefer to win, while preserving their preference for the least-worst establishment candidate. It's a win-win for everyone except the current entrenched parties.
I would support ranked choice but I think your argument misses the point. A vote is only a throwaway if the candidate has no real political support. Which takes us back to my point that third party candidates have no real support.
If by "real" you mean a chance to get a plurality in our current system, that's unmeasurable at this point because you can't divorce the person from the process. Most voters are realistic enough to know that the nearly certain outcome under the current system of voting is to split the vote and therefore elect the person they'd least like to see win. So they hold their noses and make the least-worst choice from the two entrenched parties. We can't know how much actual support third-party candidates have until that dynamic is fixed.
I think it's entirely predictable that a libertarian will not do well in Manhattan, nor will a socialist worker's party candidate do well in Mississippi, and there is no possible rule change that would alter that.
And?
As I understand your previous post, the reason third parties don't do well (or at least better) is the rules are stacked against them. My response is that the rules aren't the problem. You can make whatever changes to the rules you like; voters will not vote for third parties because they disagree with third parties on the merits. There is very little support in this country for either libertarianism or socialist workers-ism. That's your problem. You're trying to sell the dogs on a brand of dog food they just don't like.
I understand your broader argument just fine. But I don't at all see how your last two highly contrived examples support it.
The spoiler effect is well understood and not controversial. At this point it feels like you're arguing (with me and several others) just for the sake of doing so. Even more bizarre is that you're doing so in light of the beginning of our exchange where you said you would support ranked choice. It's not clear why you would burn the sort of political capital it would take to roll out ranked choice on a large scale if it just becomes another sorting stage for establishment candidates.
Everyone is looking at this from a top down view. The parties are giant grab bags of planks, to pull in as many different voter types as possible. They evolve continuously to adapt and maximize their numbers.
The reason is the need to win the presidency, a vital component to passing laws. This is also why parliamentary type systems aren't limited to two. The parties form the government by jumping around into a ruling coalition. That is of little use if you don't also capture a presidency.
We've had what, two major party rollovers into a third party, retiring an old one, in our entire history, and one was near the forming of the republic and the other, the civil war.
Any issue that serious will be massive or inhaled by an existing party. After all, existing corruption wants to win so their spouses can remain investment savants.
And, on a related note, I think we would be much better served by a parliamentary system, for the reasons you gave.
If that is the case I would expect a much higher percentage of votes for third parties in states/districts dominated by one of the two major parties.
For example consider a voter in California making their choice for US President in the general election.
There is very little question that all of California's EC votes will go to the Democratic candidate and if that's not the case it's inconceivable that the Republican candidate won't end up being elected regardless of how Californians vote because the election would be a landslide for the Republican candidate with or without California's contribution.
Yet in the 2022 general election in California Trump and Biden collectively garnered 97.8% of the popular vote (Trump @ 34.32% and Biden @ 63.48%). The Libertarian candidate got only 1.07% of the popular vote and the Green party candidate got only 0.46% of the popular vote while candidates for the remaining seven parties on the ballot collectively only garnered 0.66% of the popular vote.
Any California voter anywhere on the political spectrum who preferred one of the other parties or other party's candidates was absolutely free to pick their preferred candidate rather than "the lesser of the two evils" with no fear that their vote would change which candidate became President. Yet very, very few did.
In such races in California I nearly always vote for the Libertarian candidate even though I rarely would actually want that candidate to be President and I'm not a member of the Libertarian party. However, since my vote doesn't matter in the outcome, I do this to signal (very weakly!) to the two dominate parties where they would have to move in hopes of getting my vote (so far though, decades on, my attempts remain to be in vain!).
Maybe you should consider supporting abolishing the electoral college then. That way, all Californians (as well as citizens of every other state) would have an incentive to vote for the candidate they really want since every vote would count toward the national total.
Ding ding ding! You've hit the nail on the head. "Safe" states ought to show substantial 3rd party votes, yet they do not.
Eg.: https://ballotpedia.org/Presidential_election_in_California,_2020
https://ballotpedia.org/Presidential_election_in_Oklahoma,_2020
The problem is unlikely to be rules that compel people to vote for their non-preferred candidate. The problem is essentially a branding problem. Third-party candidates are perceived to be not worthy of consideration.
Mostly, third party candidates aren't perceived in the first place. Because mostly they're airbrushed right out of existence by campaign coverage.
That was one of the less formal defenses against third parties that the major parties mounted after 3rd parties started gaining traction: Discouraging the media from reporting on them.
"Third parties are on the ballot in most states...If the voters want to vote third party there is nothing stopping them."
Well, in states where write-in votes are allowed there's nothing stopping the voters, but as for being on the ballot in most states I'm not sure what you mean. Some third parties surmount the arbitrary hurdles to access and many others don't, certainly not in all states.
As I say, even if a write-in option is allowed, imagine a ballot with only the Republican candidates' names printed and write-in slots where you can write in the names of Democratic candidates. How generous!
And in some states, again, write-in votes are disregarded altogether, or only regarded if some hurdles are met.
If the voters don't want third parties, the cartel parties have nothing to fear with an honest ballot giving names of *all* candidates, right? So why don't they do exactly that, to prove how unpopular the third parties are?
And that needs to be changed so that every vote counts. But in states in which third party candidates are on the ballot, they still only get one or two percent of the vote, if that.
Again: What are the cartel parties so afraid of?
I don't think they're afraid, at least not of the third parties. State election officials don't want to go to the work and expense of balloting people with a next to zero chance of getting elected.
Now, if you really want third parties to have a shot, a parliamentary system would make that result far more likely.
I dunno, the Green Party seems to have excited a certain amount of fear in one of the cartel parties.
And the other wing of the cartel is fairly mad at Libertarians, Constitution Party, etc., the latter of which - which isn't woke and may make even more inroads into the Republican base - doesn't seem to get much ballot access.
Oh, one thing third parties occasionally do accomplish is pushing one major party or the other to the extremist fringe, thus making them less electable in November. Whether that's good for the country is a separate question.
Has the Green party pushed the Democrats to the extremist fringe?
I think in some parts of the country the Greens have pushed the Democrats further to the left than they would be otherwise.
On environmental issues? Absolutely. We would have nuclear power in this country if not for the efforts of UCS, Greenpeace, and the Green Party.
A broader look at Green "success" globally: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics
I doubt very much that "state election officials" lobbying the legislature explains the ballot-access laws.
Imagine the legislators sitting there, thinking that there's nothing wrong with an honest ballot, and the elections officials convincing them that counting votes is just too darn much work with all that ballot clutter. "Wow, we hadn't thought of that before!" say the legislators, and promptly pass ballot restrictions.
No, the more likely scenario is that they didn't like third parties.
First of all, I disagree with your implication that the current ballot is a dishonest ballot. Second, the election process has been modernized in most states over a period of years, and the more likely scenario than the one you've proposed is that tougher ballot access was passed in most states as part of a more comprehensive package.
Reason itself has chronicled how Georgia's ballot-access requirements magically went up after the Commies tried to get on the ballot, and there's even a news article tying the new rules to getting commies off the ballot.
https://reason.com/2022/07/13/how-georgias-extreme-ballot-access-law-keeps-libertarians-and-everyone-else-off-the-ballot/
So I guess that could be a form of modernization.
I wonder what would be necessary for an honest ballot? Would it be OK to list only Republican Party candidates, especially in districts gerrymandered Republican? Anyone voting for a Republican in such a district would be wasting their vote, anyway. Including all the viable candidates - that's honest, isn't it?
Anyone voting for a *non* Republican in that district would be wasting their vote.
It's not honest or dishonest; it's utilitarian. Please stop imputing moral flaws to something just because you disagree with it.
How about every party that garnered 10% of the vote in the previous general election, with those parties that did not having the option to collect signatures?
Or, we could adopt the former Canadian system (no longer in place), in which every candidate has to pay a deposit ($1,000 for someone running for the federal Parliament). You get your deposit back if you get one-sixth of the vote. If you are a national party, you have to pay a $200,000 fine if you lose your deposit in a total of 100 districts nationwide. That way, there is some financial deterrence to a crank running a vanity campaign.
Or we could require third parties to be on the ballot in primary elections and only parties that collect 10% of the vote in the primary get to be on the general election ballot.
There are lots of choices. But none of them would make a rat's patootie's worth of difference because the third parties lack popular support.
"It's not honest or dishonest"
The cartelites work themselves up into a fine moral indignation about whatever gets in the way of their side, why can't their opponents point out the moral implications of what the cartelites are doing? Sauce for the goose is sauce for gander.
"it's utilitarian."
Useful for the cartel parties, yes.
There could be fees for ballot access, not to compensate the state for the privilege of allowing unpopular parties to run, but to pay for the legitimate advertising costs of ballot placement. Of course this would ne nonrefundable, even if you're a cartel party.
No, it's utilitarian for the country; a thousand-name presidential ballot would not be helpful for anyone. Not wasting money is utilitarian.
And the only moral implications are the ones inside your head.
A dishonest ballot would be one that said, in big bold letters at the top, "No one other than the candidates listed has expressed any interest in running." THAT would be a dishonest ballot.
I've already made suggestions for how to meet your objections - both in Presidential elections specifically and in elections more generally.
A filing fee to cover the "advertising" costs of putting one's name on the ballot would put paid to the expense argument - not that the cartel parties care much for the taxpayers, but in case they did that would meet their objections.
"A dishonest ballot would be one that said, in big bold letters at the top, "No one other than the candidates listed has expressed any interest in running." THAT would be a dishonest ballot."
Fine, list the Republican candidates and let the Dem candidates get written in. Perfectly honest.
you identify just what happens via CA's jungle ballot as the Dems try to keep the Reps off the November election ballot.
Yes, the third party guys could run in the primaries that get 30% voter participation so that the fringes of the majority party dominate.
That's progressive democracy in action.
Imagine you're holding a marathon. Two of the runners get to start fresh at the starting blocks. The rest, 'in order to prove they're serious runners', are required to run a marathon just to arrive at the starting blocks as the starting gun fires.
Really, they're getting in the race, the fact that they show up already exhausted just proves they're lousy runners...
The thing is, though, Brett, that even if you required the two major parties to, say, come up with the signatures of 1% of the people who voted in the previous elections, the major parties would regard it as a minor annoyance and comply with the requirement in no time flat. How long do you think it would take the Republicans in Alabama or the Democrats in California to gather the necessary signatures? Almost no time at all.
And the fact that this requirement can be lethal to third parties simply underscores the fact that those parties lack the necessary public support to build the necessary machine to easily meet the requirement.
These access requirements aren't long standing, though. They were instituted when 3rd parties started gaining in the late 70's and the 80's, I think specifically to handicap the third parties. A lot of policy changes were being made around then, and all of them hostile to 3rd parties. Prior to then ballot access was easy. (Still is for the major parties, which typically only have a small filing fee, and even that gets waived if somebody forgets to pay it.)
When I joined the LP back in '77, we were well aware that we'd have to grow fast, because there would be a period where we were getting big enough to look like a threat, and still be small enough we couldn't block any hostile legislation. We needed to rocket through that period of vulnerability.
We didn't, the majors had time to get their defenses in place. And any time a third party looks like they've found a way to get around those defenses, they get updated.
But that’s not why the LP struggles to get 3%. People simply aren’t buying what we’re selling. Freedom is scary.
It doesn’t help that the LP often resembles a loony bin reunion tour more than a political party, but the ultimate problem is that people like drug prohibition, social security, and sticking it to the bankers, and as soon as a large enough number change their mind about a key libertarian issue, one of the major parties will change its position to match. We’re never a distinct choice for very long on issues that anyone really cares about.
"specifically to handicap the third parties. A lot of policy changes were being made around then, and all of them hostile to 3rd parties."
That is just what happened in CA. Hence, the jungle primary.
FWIW I am reminded of how the Americas Cup rules were rigged for years which is how the US managed to retain it for so long. Competitors had to sail to the location of the competition - IIRC, where the winners came from. So American yachts could sail up the eastern seaboard at their leisure, while British yachts had to sail across the Atlantic. Ocean-going yachts tend not to be fast and lightweight Americas Cup winners...
Duverger's Law attributes that to rational voter behavior in our electoral system.
Then why not have an honest ballot so that the lack of third-party support can be exposed for all to see?
What would the "honest ballot" look like? In 2020, there were at least three third-party candidates listed in the same manner as Trump and Biden. None got more than 1.5%. Even if we postulate that the third-party candidates were listed after the two major candidates, that fact doesn't explain the dismal showing.
I don't understand what kind of ballot change you are envisioning that magically makes 1% preference jump to 10% preference, let alone 51% preference.
https://ballotpedia.org/Texas_official_sample_ballots,_2020
I don't know what the votes totals would be on an honest ballot, all I know is that
-an honest ballot is right and just in and of itself and
-anything the cartel is so anxious to prevent is probably a good thing.
Voting for a third party candidate does nothing except help the major party candidate you object to more. Most voters are aware of this.
But that explains *why* there's no real support for third parties; it doesn't detract from the point that there is no real support for third parties. These arguments all sound like excuses and whining from parties that simply have no public support, and would have no real public support even if the rules were changed.
And here's the problem on the other side: Suppose anyone could run for president just by showing up and paying a nominal filing fee. At that point, how many cranks and vanity campaigns do you think you'd see? ("Oh, I'm tired of selling insurance; I think I'll run for president.") Suddenly my presidential ballot has a thousand names on it, at great cost to the taxpayers, and at great annoyance to voters who have to wade through pages and pages of names to find the one they want.
We can quibble about whether there are rule changes that would make things fairer. But I don't see how you dispense altogether with a requirement that third parties somehow demonstrate that they have enough public support to justify putting them on the ballot. You saw the chaos in Florida with the 2000 butterfly ballot; making it a free-for-all would make it a thousand times worse.
" Suppose anyone could run for president just by showing up and paying a nominal filing fee. At that point, how many cranks and vanity campaigns do you think you'd see? "
Arguments like this blow my mind. The whole "Suppose we allowed [What we used to allow!], you'd surely get this horrible problem [That didn't actually happen when we did allow it!] genre. This genre relies on historical ignorance.
Prior to the late 70's, Anyone COULD run for President just by showing up and paying a nominal filing fee. And it wasn't a problem!
Brett's making this up, but it's a self-refuting argument anyway.
"They used to allow this, and nobody voted for third parties. Therefore, they must have changed the rules because they were scared of third parties!"
@David Nieporent - off topic: P'92?
That's me.
The problem that was proposed was an excess of candidates, not third party candidates getting votes. And prior to restrictive ballot access, you didn't get an excess of candidates.
If you're worried about too much voter choice in Presidential elections, remember that the state legislatures can solve that problem. They can assume unto the selves the power to choose Presidential electors; or they can nominate two candidates and have the voters choose between them only.
Of course, that leaves all the other elections in which we have to fear the results of having the ballot more honest...
I don't think less democracy is the answer here.
Certainly no...remind me who's making the case for less democracy?
Not me. I'm fine with people voting for whomever they like, and I think every vote should count. I just don't think allowing anyone on the ballot would actually change the outcome, which is the specific discussion we're having.
I was discussing obstacles to ballot access, plus the obvious reality that the cartel wouldn't like having an honest ballot beause first, if they wanted one they would allowed it, and two, when people look into the history of these restrictions, the timing is really strange: Tightened restrictions tend to follow closely upon a third party actually having a boost in votes.
And I don't think the major parties are as afraid of third parties as you think they are. Third parties are unpopular because they occasionally gum up the works, are a nuisance, and cost already financially strapped election offices both time and money.
But again, if your real concern is making things more fair for third parties, you'd far more likely get those results with a parliamentary system. Israel is basically run by third parties.
So unless I'm willing to accept the status quo, I'm bound to support some parliamentary system or Israeli-style proportional representation?
"And I don't think the major parties are as afraid of third parties as you think they are."
Their actions speak a lot louder than these reassurances. Assigning an entire team in North Carolina to visit people at home to get them to retract their Green Party signatures, mounting a major challenge to get the Greens off the ballot, etc? What term besides fear would you use?
"Third parties are unpopular"
Irrelevant, since popularity is measured by voting on an honest ballot. The ballot isn't just for popular candidates.
"occasionally gum up the works"
What does this refer to? Somehow obstructing the smooth operation of the system which has served us so well, simply by allowing at least protest votes against the system?
"a nuisance"
Fairly subjective - I think the cartel parties are much worse than a mere nuisance, but I wouldn't mutilate the ballot to discourage people from voting for them.
"cost"
A position on the ballot is basically advertising, so *every* party (or independent candidate) which wants a ballot position should pay a nondiscriminatory fee for the advertising - a fee which is designed to cover the extra cost, not to deter people.
No, what you've now posited is the logical fallacy of undistributed middle.
Sorry, I typed too fast. I meant the logical fallacy of the false alternative.
I thought that was you.
"Voting for a third party candidate does nothing except help the major party candidate you object to more. Most voters are aware of this."
That's an argument against voting third-party; it's not an argument against an honest ballot.
I believe voting for Ross Perot, in 1992, not only gave us Bill Clinton, but also gave us a Republican Congress in 1994. Voting for Tea Party candidates not only showed that Republicans and Democrats were both members of the club and didn't want outsiders in, but it also gave us Donald Trump, the first Tea Party President.
As long as Court rulings are seen as due to fundamental political differences then people may be unhappy (and continue to be pissed off at the circumstances of the most recent appointments) but will probably shrug their shoulders. They know that a conservative judge will tend to rule according to conservative thinking while a liberal judge will tend to rule according to liberal thinking. It's not that different from soccer refs where some go strictly by the rulebook while others are more flexible. You accept that them's the breaks.
Legitimacy will be sorely strained, however, if enough people feel that the Court goes beyond their natural biases. For example, if the Case of the Unreturned Boxes goes to trial, Trump is convicted on whatever charges, and on finally getting to the Supreme Court, 5 or 6 justices rule that say PRA is unconstitutional or that Trump's claims of blanket declassification required actual disproof by the prosecution, or other spurious justification including arguments not raised by Trump (Thomas writing for the majority, natch) and it were obvious that the Supremes were finding a way to get Trump off, then I think that the Court's legitimacy would be rightly questioned, and under such circumstances it should be regarded as illegitimate.
Hey kinda like those ACA and Ogberfell rulings!
Neither of which were in defence of a specific person.
So?
That is my point. Justices ruling consistent with their general political or social biases would not IMO strain legitimacy (much). A ruling clearly designed to benefit Trump in a criminal case, for example, would do so.
But what if upholding normal standards of justice would clearly benefit Trump? Do they have to make an exception to avoid benefiting him?
No. If the Supreme Court were to rule that some executive privilege still persists after a president steps down, and that therefore some of the documents seized in the Maga Lago raid should remain under Trump's control (Kavanagh's opinion in Trump v Thompson suggests as much though it's not binding). That would, I think, be normal.
But suppose at trial Trump swore under oath that he had declassified the documents by standing order and that therefore he could not be convicted of anything to do with handling or mismanaging of classified documents, and the jury convict following appropriate judicial instruction; if on appeal the Supreme Court ruled that Trump's declaration under oath should be given special weight as he had been president and the judge failed to recognise it, and that therefore he should not have been convicted, that would be abnormal.
Whoo hoo!
Preemptive declaration that the Court is only legitimate if it rules the way SRG wants, even on issues that haven't happened yet.
The funny thing is that approval polls about the Supreme Court were pretty constant since the 1970s, with the only major dip being in 2000, which recovered just a few years later (see Gallup's Supreme Court category on their website).
At least, until 2016, when suddenly the Supreme Court "legitimacy" dropped like a rock, among one group of people: Democrats, due explicitly to the failure of Garland's nomination. By now, after Dobbs, roughly 50% of Democrats claim the Court is illegitimate (about a 15-20 point increase) (See Harvard SCOTUS polling history). A majority in the Harvard polling post-Dobbs said the Court should be eliminated.
Funny thing, though. A solid majority of Republicans accept the Supreme Court as legitimate even when they don't approve of the rulings, as they have since the 1970s.
A solid majority of Republicans accept the Supreme Court as legitimate even when they don't approve of the rulings,
Republicans don't approve of the rulings?
That's laughable. The Court has consistently made pro-Republican decisions - Shelby County, Rucho - based on spurious logic.
The only case where that didn't happen was the census case, where Roberts was too embarrassed by the Administration's obvious mendacity to rule in its favor, even though the other RW Justices were shameless.
Just to pick one - Republicans agree with Oberkfell? They agree with the Obamacare tax decision? They agree that the CRA bar on discrimination covers gays and transgenders?
You’re dramatically overstating what’s been happening.
By pro-Republican I mean decisions that help the Republican Party politically.
As for Obergefell, I'd say they are glad to see Kennedy gone. They are certainly not happy with Roberts over the (clearly correct, IMO) ACA decision.
Bernie: You must have been asleep when the Court expressly ignored the provisions of the ACA that imposed a penalty and not a tax. Or are you result-oriented?
Also, the occasional non-RW ruling doesn't outweigh the attacks on the Establishment Clause we've seen recently, or the overturning of Roe.
There is no "Church of the United States" with compulsory tithes. I think you'll be okay.
[X] Gigantic memeplex to gather large masses of people
[X] Takes money to help the poor, provide marriages, help the sick, provide orphanages and hospitals, etc.
[X] Goal is the brass ring of power so it can force itself on unwilling hosts who disbelieve in that particular god
Sounds like a religion to me. They just swapped out "for God" with "for The People". The clergy does pretty much the same thing as in centuries past.
As we discussed earlier at the time I think your overstating the degree of attacks on the Establishment Clause. I see your point about Coach Ostentatious, but as we discussed at the time I don’t see the Maine case having anything establishment effect.
Any other decisions are based on the RFRA, which passed Congress nearly unanimously after being proposed by Democrats (Shumer and Kennedy) and was signed by Clinton. And it was mainly driven because laws at the time were giving trouble to indigenous Americans practicing their religions. Not really even a Republican thing, although obviously it was something congress felt strongly about at the time. If congress wants to dial that back, they can certainly do so.
SCOTUS made rulings before 2010, you know.
And the Republican view of the Court's legitimacy hasn't changed much, even when their approval of the Court was down.
That's the difference that is remarkable here - approval never varied all that much amongst either party (2000 election aside), until "legitimacy" became a Democrat talking point in 2016. And now a majority of the Left wants to get rid of the Court entirely.
Are you claiming that Republicans have always approved of every SCOTUS ruling since the 1970s, where Gallup's data started? That's pretty silly.
For decades, the Republicans were upset by losing cases about abortion, gun control, communism, or any number of other issues - every time they lost, in other words.
History did not begin in 2016, bernard.
Preemptive declaration that the Court is only legitimate if it rules the way SRG wants, even on issues that haven't happened yet.
Reading is not your strong point, evidently. I specifically made it clear that rulings in general did not affect legitimacy - and I certainly do not agree with some of the SC's rulings.
And "for example, if..." is a reasonable way to begin a hypothetical - to illustrate the circumstances under which I think that, yes, their legitimacy would be blown. A ruling that was not merely partisan but which was transparently geared to let Trump walk would IMO remove the Court's legitimacy. And one step towards that illegitimacy would be if Thomas failed to recuse himself in a case involving organisations with which his wife is closely involved.
As I said, you've already decided the outcome of a future case which doesn't even exist yet, but you've already decided MUST go your prejudiced (literally) way or the Court is illegitimate.
No case exists, no arguments made, no rulings delivered, and yet you already know what would be the legitimate outcome.
And your recusal logic is its own special brand of stupid. Tell me, do you expect judges to recuse in cases involving the President that appointed them? A situation far more personal and influential than the six-degrees of Thomas's wife.
So you've never come across a hypothetical before.
Are you so intellectually deficient that you do not understand the meaning of the word "if"?
A hypothetical that spells out very specific details of something you claimed elsewhere will happen in reality?
Yeah, sure, pull the other one.
You've prejudged an entire case that you think is going to happen, and stated the specific players and positions that will result in the case being "legitimate" or not to you.
You are exactly the prejudiced person, demanding that the Court give the rulings you want, and any deviation is "illegitimacy". You are the "illegitimacy crisis".
Constitutional adjudication is by definition anti-majoritarian. So lack of popularity on Constitutional issues (which is most of what the public cares about), is inherent in the job. If an Article III judge rules based on what is popular, or what he or she believes to be popular, that is a violation of their oath to uphold the Constitution.
Constitutional adjudication isn't so much anti-majoritarian as a-majoritarian. It's not specifically contrary to public opinion, but rather, supposed to be unrelated to it.
But I suppose the point is that cases where public opinion and the Constitution align don't get to the Court, because democratically elected politicians don't violate popular parts of the Constitution?
As if.
The Court usually has to rule on Constitutional issues when a majority of the people (or at least their representatives) support something that is unconstitutional.
By definition, they are opposing the will of the majority.
Correct. It's not perfect, because what passes Congres or a state legislature does not always reflect on the majority's position. But generally it does.
The SCOTUS has a legitimacy problem because you can pretty much predict the outcome of any politically charged case based upon the makeup of the court.
And screw that bootlicker Somlin for blaming the Left's horrible conduct on the Right.
I agree with you, there is a feeling that there is always a judicial finger on the scales. Thomas and Alito have been very vocal about their political bias. Many of us have lost faith in the court, which is not representative of the views of the american public. There is an ugly elephant in the room, cookie cutter, originalist, federalist society judges, acting in the most parochial way conceivable.
Do you think PB&J will have the ethics to recuse themself from any cases involving women since she doesn't know what one is?
Blue Heron - I agree Alito , Thomas absolutely have a bias - A bias to adhere to the constitution.
Two great examples -
Dobbs - abortion is not in the constitution, so lets return abortion back to the states to be decided by the democratic process.
Bruen - the right to keep and bear arms is specifically in the constitution , so lets adhere to what is written in the constitution
Given that Alito notoriously supports John Doe warrants, which are on the literal text of the Constitution unequivocally unconstitutional, and some of his other opinions on searches, I am by no means convinced of his bias to adhere to the Constitution.
Ever hear of the Ninth amendment, Poindexter?
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Bring a shoulder fired missile to the Piggly Wiggly next time you are buying mush and you will understand that even the right to bear and keep arms has its limits.
blue heron
September.12.2022 at 7:54 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Ever hear of the Ninth amendment, Poindexter?
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Blue - that is exactly what dobbs did - it returned the abortion issue to the states
If the right to abortion is an unenumerated right retained by the people, how does it help to protect that right by allowing states to outlaw abortion?
blue heron
September.12.2022 at 7:54 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Blue's comment - "Bring a shoulder fired missile to the Piggly Wiggly next time you are buying mush and you will understand that even the right to bear and keep arms has its limits."
Your statement is entirely consistent with the holding in Bruen, Heller and mcdonald. Did you bother reading anyone of the three opinions?
I'd argue that the expense involved with getting a shoulder fired missile launcher (not cheap) AND the ammo to fire (also quite not cheap) AND the liability for all damages caused by it are a rather effective deterrant to randomly firing off missiles at folks.
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Do you think Dobbs banned abortion?
Okay. Now explain to me the basis in the Constitution for the original Roe v Wade decision. The opinion doesn’t even sound judicial.
High SCOTUS approval is not a goal in and of itself; it should rather be understood as a necessary condition to allow it to make unpopular (but correct) decisions. Avoiding unpopular decisions to preserve a higher approval rating (or "legitimacy") is directly opposed to the public interest. It's regrettable that folks, including the Chief Justice, use the Court's decreasing approval rating as evidence of error.
I can't help but think that this court's "imaginary friend" jurisprudence of delegating all questions of rights and remedies back to the even-less-popular branches must necessarily cause some convergence of their popularity levels.
If the Court says, e.g., that rights against cops or rights to abortion or access to constitutional remedies or what-have-you are the business of the imaginary wise deliberators in Congress, why should the Court be any more popular than Congress is?
Elections, elections. The people speak through elections. Not too long ago a prominent Democrat reminded us that “elections have consequences”. He forgot to say that it only applied to Democrat wins.
Somin's political analysis seems unperceptive.
Welcome to the Volokh Conspiracy! You must be new here.
"The norm-breaking political behavior of the right has helped weaken norm-based taboos on the left."
Harry Reid says, "Da fuq?"
That line jumped out at me, too. This endless drumbeat of "they did bad stuff so we will too" is precisely why Congress' approval ratings are so low.
Note that the President's approval ratings also dip every time he parrots those absurd retaliation threats.
The huge difference between the Sup Ct (and, to a MUCH lesser extent, other federal courts) and Congress/President is that voters have the right and the ability every 2 or 4 or 6 years, to make changes. And, to prove this point, American voters do do this, regularly. Massive gerrymandering may make this happen less frequently than would be optimal. But it does happen often enough. If your side thinks the president is illegitimate (really, almost all the time; this means merely that you don't like his policies), then you get to vote him out of office. Or, vote his party out of office.
But, of course, with an illegitimate court, we the voters are fucked. Esp regarding the Sup Ct, which has only 9 openings. Till one dies or retires, it matters not a whit how America views the court. We are completely impotent.
This makes this, IMO, much more upsetting to the Average Joe, and much more frustrating.
Well, not completely impotent.
We can amend the Constitution and also impeach SC Justices.
Definitely not EASY methods but they are available.
Congress also controls the size of the Supreme Court -- they could enlarge it if they think the political calculus favors that path.
It's lots of fun to talk about, but the last time a president seriously attempted it, his party took a drubbing.
So send it to committee to die, where it will look like it's active.
“I want you to use my words against me. If there’s a Republican president [elected] in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said let’s let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination."
When Scalia and Ginsberg's bodies weren't even cold as McConnell talked first about not considering any Obama nominee, and then saying that a Trump nominee would get an up or down vote before the election, how is it possible to not view the Court as having a deficit of legitimacy now?
Maybe if Congress did its job and wrote clear, concise and un- ambiguous laws there would be less concern with "Imperial Presidents" and "legitimate" courts.
They followed to a.letter the constitutional procedures for filling Supreme Court vacancies using the majority the voters conferred on them.
How that illegitimate?
I hope you aren't going to claim the result would have been any different if the roles had been reversed.
Legal does not mean legitimate.
And your next argument shows you know this.
Alas, Hypothetical Dems being bad do not absolve the real GOP being bad.
It's only in hypothetical situations where Democrats act badly!!!
lmao good one Gaslightr0
He's dumb
Lindsey Graham is your guide? Har har de harhar.
It happened - multiple times! - in the 19th century. It happened in the 20th century. And, surprise, it happened in the 21st century.
Not getting a vote is the most common way to fail to make it onto the Court, in fact.
If you think the most common outcome, through a legal process in use for 180 years, is "not legitimate", then you've got quite the unusual definition of legitimacy.
How about you share that magic definition with us, hmm?
Dems had never done what Mconnell did. Inconsistency on his part was illegitimate.
Also, the Constitution does not bestow the power of advice and consent on the Senate Majority Leader. It bestows that power on the entire Senate collectively. Many political sophisticated observers thought Garland could win if he got a vote. That too makes withholding a vote illegitimate. McConnell's personal power to over-awe and punish dissent within his own party is no part of the constitutionally mandated power of advice and consent.
Not never:
They didn't have the opportunity to do that more recently.
Stephen Lathrop
September.12.2022 at 6:45 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Also, the Constitution does not bestow the power of advice and consent on the Senate Majority Leader. It bestows that power on the entire Senate collectively."
Lathrop - did you forget about the part that both houses of congress can make their own rules.
The Senate can reverse a majority leader, but he is the majority leader because he commands a majority to back his decisions.
The disparate treatment by the Senate of the Scalia vacancy and the Ginsburg vacancy is pure Calvinball. Completely unprincipled. The Court's legitimacy accordingly suffers.
Since becoming AG, Garland has demonstrated quite extensively that he doesnt belong on the SC.
Right!
Graham is one of my Senators. I'd be glad to be rid of him, but we have open primaries here in S.C., and the crossover vote keeps saving him.
Why do you make this shit up, Brett? Setting aside that by definition there's no "crossover vote" in S.C., since there's nonpartisan registration, Graham has never faced a serious challenger in the GOP primaries and hasn't needed any such "crossover vote" to "save" him.
Lindsey Graham is your guide? Har har de harhar.
Because it lacks the real power of the political branches, the Supreme Court runs on legitimacy. Thus, to stay effective, the Supreme Court needs higher public approval than the other branches do.
Note also, for the Supreme Court an appearance of political partisanship will erode legitimacy faster than it will reduce the approval ratings delivered by public polling. Everyone agrees political partisanship tends to make the Court illegitimate. At any given time however, partisan performance by the Court will be welcomed by the political partisans it assists. That puts a floor under the court's polling numbers which is unlikely to correlate accurately with perceptions of lost legitimacy. Perceptions of legitimacy may continue to plunge, while partisan approval from one side or the other buoys upward the public approval results. It is probably possible for the public to hold the Court in actual contempt, while at least part of the public welcomes some of the results it delivers.
S/C has been illegitimate since Marbury v. Madison.
But, Bob, the SCOTUS has to be the ultimate arbiter lacking a Constitutional simile of the House of Lords’ veto.
Judicial veto of the actions of co-equal branches is not in the Constitution though.
Sure it is:
"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
And the principle of judicial nullification was already well established in British law at the founding:
"Sir Edward Coke, Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas in England, in the course of his opinion in Dr. Bonham's
Case, in 1610. Among a multitude of reasons for the court's decision he said: "When an Act of Parliament is against Common Right and Reason, or repugnant, or impossible to be performed, the Common Law will controll it, and adjudge such Act to be void."
The lesson seems straightforward. Politicians are trusted less than judges, so judges should avoid behaving like politicians, lest they lose the people's trust.
The fact that "suburban women" think the court's legitimacy is based on whether or not they or their slutty daughters can kill their babies shows why women should not be in any positions of power in the first place.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/3638657-1-in-3-says-presidents-should-be-able-to-remove-judges-over-decisions-survey/
The totalitarian left isn't even trying to hide it anymore.
Why Republicans aren't embracing Dobbs is beyond me. It didn't "outlaw" abortion and, in fact will do more to settle the abortion issue to everyone's satisfaction more quickly. Kansas was a wake-up call to the ban abortion crowd. Now, all that has to happen, is they put a reasonable bill up to a vote, something like restrictions after 15 weeks which a majority of voters will go for, and let the Democrats support abortion up until crowning and see who wins.
1) The base will howl if any law is proposed that doesn't ban abortion in almost all cases. 15 weeks is far too "soft" for the fervent supporters, and any Republican who proposes it will lose the primary.
2) Support for "abortion up until crowning" is vanishingly small. It's not the position of the Democratic party.
Popularity and legitimacy are orthogonal concepts. As other have pointed out above, a major role for the court is to uphold individual rights in spite of a majority (or their elected representatives) acting to curtail them. By definition, that's going to be unpopular. e.g. Mixed-race and same-sex marriage were distinctly unpopular not very long ago. The first amendment guarantees the right to say unpopular things.
That said, for the court to retain legitimacy, their rulings must be well argued and reflect the facts of the case. When it's clear that the result was pre-ordained to side with the party that nominated them, and the reasoning is poor or the facts are twisted, the court loses legitimacy.
Increased usage of the shadow docket, where they render decisions without explaining the reasons why, definitely erodes legitimacy.
When the court blatantly ignores the facts, as Gorsuch did in the Kennedy decision, the court loses legitimacy. When they fail to act on Texas SB8, which clearly interfered with a (at the time) well established constitutional right, they lose legitimacy.
When they just make up new tests or exceptions out of whole cloth, like the "Major Questions" doctrine or Alito's "deeply rooted" test, the court loses legitimacy.
When a majority of the court has been appointed by a president who failed to win the popular vote, the legitimacy is called into question.
When the court issues a ruling that is a one-off instead of based on general principles ("Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances...") that is along party lines, their legitimacy suffers.
When the wife of one the justices is actively working to overturn democracy, and the justice fails to recuse himself when those cases come before hand, and is the lone dissenter, and fails to explain why, there's very serious doubt about his ability to judge fairly.
When every other judge or public official (elected or appointed) has some sort of code of conduct they must adhere to, but the Supreme Court does not, and the Chief Justice proclaims in public that such a judicial code is unnecessary, it makes one think that the justices consider themselves above the law.
As the stolen documents case winds it's way up the appeal ladder, we'll see whether the 11th circuit (which is majority Trump appointed) overturns the nonsensical ruling by the district judge, or whether the justice who rides that circuit (Thomas) can apply the law over partisanship, or if it gets to the Supreme court itself whether two conservatives justices can be found to state clearly that no man is above the law. The fact that this is in doubt casts a severe shadow over the court's legitimacy.
In sum, there are lots of reasons to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the Supreme Court that have nothing to do with "popularity" and everything to do with intellectual rigor and ethical behavior. Roberts seems to be tone deaf about this.
Clem. You liked the reasoning in Roe v Wade, I gather. Chuckle.
Jim B, JD
As someone with strong libertarian leanings (small L), a verdict establishing an individual right against government intervention in our private lives make a whole lot more sense to me than one that takes away those rights on the flimsiest of arguments.
YMMV.
And it's perfectly reasonable to think that Roe was decided on incorrect grounds while thinking that the decision itself was the right one - based on 9A for example.
And it's perfectly reasonable to think it was decided on incorrect grounds, and the 9th amendment would have been just another incorrect ground.
Yes. 9A is undoubtedly problematic - but I think we can agree that one can't just ignore it altogether even if it causes difficulties for judges. We do know why it's there in the first place.
"Alternatively, maybe legitimacy depends on whether the Court uses the right methodology, such as originalism or living constitutionalism."
This seems vanishingly unlikely, one aspect of the ideological basis of modern SC decisions.
No one ever supports getting the wrong answer by using the right methodology (beyond small bastions of constitutionalists). On the other hand, everyone is ok with getting the right answer by a perfectly nonsense methodology.
Quit whining, clingers.
Especially you, Chief Justice Roberts. Why not do something useful, like review the effect of the antics of Justice Thomas's wife on the Court's ethics performance?
I lost respect for the SC with Roberts' contrived rationalization regarding the ACA's "it's a tax" decision. It's the Supreme Court's *job* to hold Congress accountable to the Constitution by saying "No. Go back and try again." when necessary, not "Well, if you squint and wish really hard, then yeah, I guess it's okay."
Wait a minute. Did Prof. Volokh ban Behar? This post should've been catnip for the guy.
Perhaps the ABA pushed Behar out of a convenient window.
The statement itself is debatable, does popularity overpowers the constitutional limits of the Supreme Court? The legislature is stated to maintain law and order, and people can have mixed thoughts about working. As far as it works for the betterment of society, the work should not be a subject of discussion. How can we make it popular by showcasing the court hearing? Isn’t it so lame to make it like a reality show? It is better to believe in the system and raise your voice when injustice is served. Popularity is not even thought about regarding government and governing political parties. Justice needs to be served, and every life matter should be the ultimate motto by hiring the right attorney and seeking proper consultation.