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Three Points of Agreement on Democracy Protection
Sixth post in the symposium on the National Constitution Center "Restoring the Guardrails of Democracy" project. Edward Foley of Team Progressive highlights some points of agreement between the three reports.
As Walter Olson has noted, one of the beneficial aspects of this Guardrails of Democracy project organized by the National Constitution Center is the considerable common ground shared by the three separate teams, each approaching the topic independently from different philosophical perspectives. This convergence on some core beliefs about what's essential for safeguarding democracy at this moment of peril might even be characterized as the kind of "overlapping consensus" that John Rawls argued was necessary for political liberty, equality, and democracy to exist under conditions of philosophical pluralism.
In an effort to further this spirit of conciliation, I will identify three additional points of agreement concerning our mutual goal of safeguarding democracy from the forces that presently threaten it in the United States:
Broaden as Wide as Possible the Democracy-Protection Coalition
Walter worries that use of the terms "Big Lie" and "election denialism" are counterproductively off-putting, alienating conservative-minded and Republican-affiliated "ordinary" citizens who otherwise could be recruited to the democracy-protecting cause. Walter offers "election fabulist" as a less objectionable label for the same "incredibly dangerous" phenomenon. I'm happy to pragmatically use the more diplomatic term if that will help achieve the objective of preventing the repudiation of valid election outcome by partisans who simply refuse to accept defeat.
Moreover, this kind of terminological restraint is an instance of a more general point: even if "electoral skepticism" (how's that for an even more diplomatic phrase?) over the outcome of the 2020 election is utterly unwarranted based on all the evidence, as Bill Barr among others have observed, it would be wise to consider bolstering those procedures that would help convince election skeptics of the validity of vote totals in the future. Thus, measures to make the process even more transparent and less vulnerable to misinformation—like counting mailed ballots quickly and permitting robust observation of the counting process by representatives of the competing candidates and political parties—should be maximized to the greatest extent possible.
Still, there is a limit to this strategy. If Donald Trump and/or some of his allies attempt to repudiate the valid outcome in any of the hotly contested midterm elections, in the same way that Trump attempted to negate his 2020 loss to Joe Biden, it will be necessary to oppose that effort at election subversion with all the forces available to defenders of democracy. It will not be a moment for linguistic niceties. Rather, plain-spoken bluntness about the repeated refusal to accept electoral defeat will be needed. This point of course would be equally true if it were Democrats, rather than Republicans, refusing to acknowledge the validity of the other side's victory. But realistically, there is more reason to fear at the moment that some of the Republican midterm candidates—like Kari Lake running for governor in Arizona—may be unwilling to concede defeat if the vote tally is against them, than if the same is true for their Democrat opponents.
Ultimately, it is imperative that enough Americans of good will—Republicans, Democrats, and independents (as Liz Cheney said)—are willing to abide by the results, whatever they are. The midterms will be a test of our current capacity to perform this crucial small-d democratic function. Any additional ideas on how to improve our prospects for success on this front would be most welcome.
Let States Choose Which Majority-Winner System They Prefer
Walter also prefers the "plain vanilla" version of Ranked Choice Voting, otherwise known as the "instant runoff" version, to the "round robin" alternative. He fears that round-robin voting is "more complex" than "today's America" can handle. I could argue that the round-robin method of identifying a winner from ranked-choice ballots is actually simpler and more straightforward than the instant-runoff method, especially for Americans familiar with round-robin scoring in sports. But it's not necessary, or productive, to have that debate here.
Instead, as part of the project of finding common ground in the defense of democracy, all of us should embrace a move to majority-winner elections, leaving to states the choice of which particular majority-winner system they wish to adopt: instant runoff, round-robin, or another alternative, including the kind of "top two" system used in California, which doesn't even require ranked-choice ballots. Anyone, like Walter, who favors instant-runoff voting over the status quo ought to favor the congressional adoption of a majority-winner requirement for congressional elections. Walter may be right that ranked choice voting, or electoral reform more broadly, won't eliminate the risk of election subversion (to use that particular term). But there is already evidence from this year's midterms—including Sarah Palin's loss under Alaska's new instant runoff system—that more extreme candidates, like those espousing "election fabulist" positions, have greater difficulty prevailing in majority-winner electoral systems. Therefore, it should be a high priority for the democracy-protection coalition to urge enough Republicans as well as Democrats in Congress to enact a majority-winner rule that would cause states to choose among the many majority-winner alternatives that are all more democracy-protecting to the existing plurality-winner systems that most states use.
Jumpstart a Discussion on Reinvigorating Civics Education
Walter rightly acknowledges the danger that the government's effort at civics education can turn into "taxpayer-funded propaganda" but he still believes that improved civics education is a worthwhile pursuit. I too see no alternative to an attempt to resuscitate a national conversation on the shared precepts of democracy that should form the basis of every American's education for citizenship. Even if in our currently polarized environment there are sharp disagreements among citizens about what democracy entails, we need to have this conversation. We cannot possibly undertake self-government together as Americans unless we embrace some common conception of what self-government is and how it is to be conducted.
This brief follow-up to our initial round of Guardrail essays is not the place for a detailed discussion of what a revitalized civics education would entail. Indeed, precisely because the contents of a proposed civics education would be contested, there should be no claim of imperiously dictating the curriculum to those who would object. Instead, what is essential is to have a serious, good-faith, and ongoing dialogue about what that curriculum should include.
I have faith that if that kind of dialogue occurs, it would be fruitful. The essential elements of a democracy, while contestable to some degree, inevitably have some core components to be mutually discoverable. Democracy is not an infinitely malleable concept, which ultimately has no core meaning. Instead, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people," as Lincoln so memorably put it, has an irreducibly common understanding for all Americans. We need to remind ourselves of what that common understanding is, so that it indeed does not perish.
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This won’t ever happen because they cheat and steal elections.
Let me translate what all these Yale indoctrinated scumbags are saying.
You will submit to our big government, rent seeking scheme. This will help us hire more worthless make work, tax sucking Democrat workers.
We will impose electoral systems that split the conservative vote, and install a permanent, Democrat, one party state.
A curriculum must be imposed on our youngest children to inculcate the interests of the Chinese Commie Party to destroy our nation from within. There will be no review of any subject that contains the word, freedom.
BravoCharlieDelta (and every other stolen election kook who follows this right-wing blog), meet Doug.
(I have a packet drawer. I also used car tape about a dozen cars ago.)
Here is another dose.
Just like no one did when the Democrats were “election fabulists” in the 2016, 2004, 2000 elections.
You’re just a bunch of filthy bootlickers.
Did the losing Democratic candidates and their followers spend months going to court in very many cases to try to overturn the results? Hold fake hearings? Insist on repeated audits and then decline to accept the results of said audits? Set “the election was stolen” as part of a new Democratic credo? Set up alternative slates of electors? Vote against approving state votes?
Nope. Stop making stupid equivalents.
So what you’re saying is you can publicly say an election was stolen, but you can’t go to court with your claims? Because that’s harming Our Sacred Democracy?
What I am pointing out is the major difference between the two parties in how they acted in the matter of allegedly stolen elections.
I don’t recall Gore insisting that the 2000 election be re-run after it became obvious that the well-documented Florida voter purge in all likelihood cost him the election.
“voter purge”
Typical lib lie. There was no improper voter purge in Florida nor in 2018 Georgia.
Cleaning up voting rolls is done routinely in most states.
Ignoring SRG’s point, I see.
Point is based on a lie.
The point is not based on that, though – it’s based on what Gore didn’t do and what Trump did do.
You just found a separate point you’d prefer to argue is all.
“major difference between the two parties”
Then he gives an example. But the example was based on a lie. If there was an illegal purge, Gore’s actions would have been different.
As is, he launched a suit in a Democrat controlled system to cherry pick counties to count. No riot at the Capitol but its still “election denial”.
Not pushing as far as Trump is merely a matter of degree, not a major difference between the two parties
If there was an illegal purge, Gore’s actions would have been different.
Gores actions are what they are. Seizing on his hypothetical to yell about is not addressing the issue.
“he launched a suit in a Democrat controlled system to cherry pick counties to count.”
Gore just picked a different method than Trump.
The method of not trying to overturn the will of the voters in 5 different ways, most of which were covert, some of which were illegal, and one of which involved violence.
“election denial”.
Asking for a normal recount is not election denial.
Continuing to bitch and sue and make ridiculous statements about being reinstated, even after you’ve lost all that, is denial.
And why do you minimize the mob? Pretty serious, I’d say.
“Asking for a normal recount is not election denial.”
He didn’t though. He asked for some Dem counties only. Not normal.
It is in Florida. (Or at least was, under the law in effect at the time; no idea if it has changed.)
I thought Gore was too clever by half, the Florida courts made bad decisions, and SCOTUS’s ultimate ruling did the best it could to salvage a mucked up situation. But the fact is that the winner in Florida was in legitimate doubt. It was below the level of precision of the system. (Ironically, that’s why I thought the whole process that everyone was using was inherently flawed. If you recounted the whole state, Gore might well have won. But if you then recounted it again, Bush might have won! The courts would have done better to call it a tie and order a coin flip than to pretend that simply counting again would get a more accurate result.)
But Gore was not “denying” anything. He was not inventing a secret conspiracy based on fake affidavits and bad data by a guy who didn’t know what state he was discussing. He was contesting who got more votes. If Trump had simply asked for recounts in accordance with applicable state laws, nobody would’ve criticized him. (Maybe mocked him, because none of those states were remotely close enough for a recount to change the outcome.)
And as soon as the results were certified, Gore conceded. Period. End of story. He did not try bribery, extortion, or insurrection to change the outcome. He did not exercise his imaginary VP power to declare himself the winner.
The whole thing was a mess.
The candidates should have jointly asked for a statewide recount, rather than screwing around.
I even suspect Gore’s strategy was unwise. If you recount in your counties you gain (probably) if some votes weren’t counted. But if the errors are votes that were counted but recorded incorrectly you are better recounting the other guy’s counties, because that’s where there are more likely to be mistakes that hurt you.
But what he did was normal and legal, and when the court ruled he accepted the ruling with good grace, conceded, and attended Bush’s inauguration.
Quite a contrast from Trump’s behavior.
“But if the errors are votes that were counted but recorded incorrectly you are better recounting the other guy’s counties, because that’s where there are more likely to be mistakes that hurt you.”
Actually, there’s a very well established history of manual recounts, unless something very unusual has happened, simply replicating the existing vote percentages but with a slightly higher yield of readable votes, because people will read marginal votes the machines ignore.
So Gore actually did the correct thing to boost his vote total, asking for a recount only in several largish counties he did especially well in, and thus would do especially well among the added votes the manual recount yielded.
And this, in fact, is exactly what happened, just not to a large enough extent to put him over the top.
Thank you, Brett.
I was not aware of that.
I guess Gore knows more about politics than I do.
Those two weak-tea impeachments were directly because the Dems refused to accept the 2016 election, and this document raid looks to me like a third weak-teat impeachment.
Democrats still claim Hillary won. Hillary still doesn’t admit she lost.
Democrats still claim Hillary won
Not many. And no one in power.
If you’re a Dem and you think Trump as in office illegitimately, do you really think a quixotic impeachment is what you’d reach for? Methinks your telepathy is off again.
“And no one in power.”
Well, you’ll say she is not “in power” bu the White House press secretary is on record several times as saying that. Given the opportunity to disavow the comments today, she declined.
While press secretary? Seems like no, since you’re faffin about with ‘did she disavow’ always the sign of a weak case.
That in fact shows the difference between the Dems priorities, which seem to have required her to shut up on that front, and the GOP priorities, which are all about condoning and even defending those who push that false narrative.
You’re just a bunch of filthy bootlickers.
Small correction. These are all Yale indoctrinated filthy bootlickers. They want big government little tyranny so their worthless tax sucking parasites can be hired.
Why obsess over the struggle between the Tweedledee/Tweedledum parties when the ballots simply don’t list all the candidates?
There’s room in these reports for Prof. Somin’s “if you don’t like it, leave” idea, but a key problem of the cartel parties writing the election laws isn’t addressed.
The cartel supporters would have the world believe that they’re just oh-so-concerned about “ballot clutter.” OK, declutter the ballot altogether by printing only the names of one party’s candidates.
That’s a persistant point of mine: When this country was founded, there wasn’t any such thing as “ballot access”, because people provided their own ballots, in the form of hand written slips of paper with their votes on the, or preprinted ballots from parties or other interested groups.
It was only about the time of the Civil war that the government started printing ballots, and then using what was sold as a convenience as a choke point to control who the voters could easily vote for. Now they’re starting to even prohibit write in ballots!
The right to vote is the right to vote for whomever you damned well please.
Hang on…
You’re the guys crying about voter fraud and the need to tighten election processes and controls.
Now you want to go back to. . . hand written slips of paper?!?
Or what are you suggesting?
He’s suggesting that restricting ballots to the two parties is wrong. It would be better to go back to all votes being write-in.
However, while I have the same general understanding of the shift from full write-ins to pre-printed ballots, I do not know if write-ins were all counted, or if there were preset allowable candidates as now, and only those write-ins were recognized and counted.
That’ll be fun sorting all that out.
Hey! Who gets the ballot with the name Bubba on it?
I dunno but this one just says Kill the Jews on it.
Can a person write in their pet (and how would the election officials know it was a pet)?
There are constitutional requirements for certain offices (age, residency, etc.).
How are they supposed to know if Aunt Katie is meets the requirements?
What does it matter while counting ballots? It only matters when they have a winner.
People coped with this for 100 years, without computers or even mechanical calculating machines. We can surely cope with it now.
Did you know that Britain forbade colonials using British currency? They had to make do with Spanish, French, German, and other currencies, with Indian wampum, with barrels of tobacco and other commodities, and they handled this bizarre and changing mess without computers or calculators, with news taking a month to get from north to south.
People are pretty damned good at dealing with what they need to. It is only collectivists who think people are incompetent and must rely on government to wipe their ass.
And not a lick of fraud or corruption either!
I’m really not sure if you’re being facetious here or not. Was there any fraud or corruption that is DIRECTLY tied to the type of ballot used?
Prewritten ballots used to be provided by the parties themselves (not handwritten, obviously, but printed). Of course, voters could change the names if they really wanted.
But we don’t have to go back to that if it’s non-feasible. given the current system of govt-printed ballots, there’s no reason to limit which candidates are listed based on those approved by the cartel.
Sure, once a party or candidate’s name is on the ballot, demand (subject to fines) that they pay a reasonable fee for the privilege and form a campaign committee with a treasurer (if they haven’t done those things already). If they’re fined for noncompliance, that would be a reason not to vote for them.
“You’re the guys crying about voter fraud”
I know *I* am – fraud by the cartel. What exactly would you call leaving the names of candidates off the ballot? Would you say it can’t be fraud so long as the cartel-run legislatures approve? By the same token, a Republican legislature could order the names of Democratic candidates taken off the ballot, and it wouldn’t be fraud because it was nice and legal.
In my libertopia, every voter can submit a name as a “volunteer”, one of which is chosen at random as a co-equal legislator; every district sends an extra legislator to Congress. I originally thought of it as a way to pick an actual random volunteer with no legislative experience, then realized it can also be thought of as a more generalized write-in vote.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of half of the House being random volunteers. Being randomly selected, they probably provide a better overall true representation of the population than the two-party cartel we have today. But the candidates are self-selected.
Allowing submitting anyone’s name dilutes this representativeness but it wouldn’t bother me to limit it to volunteering yourself. People sometimes suggest a random draft, but I’d prefer a true volunteer.
The last time you falsely claimed this, you could plausibly plead ignorance. Now you’re just lying.
Come on, many, they were doing this back in 1992, with Supreme Court approval.
“Held: Hawaii’s prohibition on write-in voting does not unreasonably infringe upon its citizens’ rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Pp. 432-442.”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/504/428
From 2016:
“…eight states – Arkansas, Hawaii, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma, South Carolina and South Dakota – won’t accept any write-ins at all, while a ninth, Mississippi, almost always discounts them….
“‘”Georgia requires an advert in a newspaper. There has to be a petition of 500 signatures in North Carolina. In Illinois, a formal declaration of intent has to be filed in every single county and board of election commissioners,’ explains Richard Winger, of nonpartisan Ballot Access News.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37626319
(Of course, I have the eccentric view that in Presidential elections, the legislature can simply nominate two candidates (cartel candidates obviously) and have the voters choose between them – but there are more elections than just Presidential, you know.)
“Maine is Latest State to Reverse Course from Past Practice, and to Refuse to Tally Write-in Votes for Presidential Declared Write-in Candidates”
https://ballot-access.org/2021/02/03/maine-is-latest-state-to-reverse-course-from-past-practice-and-to-refuse-to-tally-write-in-votes-for-presidential-declared-write-in-candidates/
“The Utah legislature has passed HB 272. It requires declared write-in candidates to pay filing fees. Write-in presidential candidates would be charged $500. Other candidates would pay one-eighth of 1% of the annual salary for the full term of the office.”
https://ballot-access.org/2019/03/25/utah-legislature-passes-bill-requiring-write-in-candidates-to-pay-filing-fees/
There is no “last time I falsely claimed this”, since the claim was true, as I documented.
Rather, since I did document it, the last time you falsely claimed I was lying, you could plausibly plead ignorance. Now you’re just lying about me lying.
No, you imbecilic fabulist, you did not “document” that anyone is “starting” to prohibit write in votes “now”.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/09/06/three-points-of-agreement-on-democracy-protection/?comments=true#comment-9688199
Filing fees and not tabulating votes of those who already lost? That’s what you came up with?
It’s a start. A tax on stamps may be small, but if it’s illegitimate it should be called out.
There are already several states with bans on write-in voting, and now write-in votes in Utah will be thrown out unless the candidate kicked back a portion of the salary of the office in question. What does that have to do with whether to count someone’s vote?
The tax on stamps was not small at all though.
You also haven’t established any boundaries for what’s illegitimate.
Filing fees have been required in the past, and so have signature requirements. Have they always been bad, or just now?
Write-in candidacies are the emergency back-up in case an issue, or a candidate, comes up after the official ballots are printed – if all the candidates’ names were on the ballot, the only reason for a write-in candidate would be if the problem comes up too late for more people to be on the ballot.
“Have they always been bad, or just now?”
Sigh…I suspect you’re insinuating something about Republicans being bad, but it’s hard to tell. Maybe if you could voice your accusation boldly and unequivocally I would be able to mock it more effectively.
That’s a very extreme hypothetical you have, and one in which there are other solutions.
I also don’t like the two party system, but I don’t think impediments to write-in votes are inherently evil, nor are they in my list of top concerns.
Wasn’t saying anything bad about the GOP, so don’t worry nothing went over your head!
Why did you ask “Have they always been bad, or just now?”
You know what, never mind trying to figure out your vague insinuations.
Write-in voting, again, would only be an issue in those extreme cases…if they could put all names on the ballot. The only obstacle to putting on all names would be if someone comes forward after the ballots are printed and sent out. I hope that doesn’t happen too often, but when it does, of course there should be a write – in option.
I brought up that option because the cartel in some states sees fit to ban or restrict that option, so it must be threatening to them in some way.
The main issue is ballot access. You are obsessed with the number two.
Why did you ask “Have they always been bad, or just now?”
You called them illegitimate. If they’ve been going on for a while, that is a different statement than if they are new and illegitimate.
The cartel has been doing this for a long time, yes, so…it’s legitimate?
So your complaint simply boils down to my having a longer time perspective than you, so that I consider election law changes that are only decades old in a centuries old country to be recent?
That’s sure a weak basis for claiming I’m lying.
Writing is at least 5000 years old.
If I said that the Divine Comedy was written “recently”, I’d be wrong.
If someone had already pointed that out to me, and I said “this Dante guy has now started writing a poem about the afterlife”, I would be lying.
I think in your insistence on citing Dante to call people liars, you’re missing the point that some states will simply throw out your vote if it’s written in.
Utah has recently made a step in that direction by throwing out the votes of anyone who didn’t kick back a part of the salary of the office they’re running for.
And of course the write-in option is the escape valve for restrictive ballot access, letting candidate who are kept off the ballot to get votes anyway. That’s exactly why these states want to restrict write-ins. They don’t want voters to be able to escape the cartel in any way.
The federal and state constitutions – and you can correct me if I’m wrong – lay down the qualifications for public offices at all levels, but among these qualifications you *won’t* find “must have signatures supporting his candidacy” or “must kick back some of the salary of the office they’re running for.”
If you find nothing wrong with this, or deem it a less important issue than insulting someone on the Internet, then you’re just the kind of obedient serf the cartel wants.
It’s better to utilize a real runoff than an “instant” one. It’s just silly to pretend voters actually have well formed rank order preferences for the candidates that they can translate into ballots. Most people aren’t that sort of political junkie.
Once we know a runoff is happening, we can have a second phase of campaigning, with media coverage of just two candidates, to focus the voters’ attention on the choice they actually face, so that they generate actual, not hypothetical, preferences.
Moreover, an actual runoff election requires far less in the way of trust of obscure processes going on in the background. How are outside observers supposed to validate an instant runoff? You’d more or less have to make the entire database of ballots publicly available as they were cast, (Not actually a bad idea, mind you.) so that outside groups could replicate the calculations!
Sounds like you’re still smarting from that Tina Fey ranked-ballot voting loss.
But c’mon, the voters will have election-fatigue and definitely won’t be responsive to, “. . . a second phase of campaigning, with media coverage of just two candidates, (etc.) . . . . “
The problem with the Alaska method is that it rewards the party which only has one realistic candidate. GOP here had two so lost. It will work the other way in other elections.
RCV is bad but if you have to have it, the Maine method is better. RCV in primaries lets two candidates into the general that are consensus party choices. Still lets independents run in the general.
I prefer actual enumeration of votes cast. If a second run-off election is needed, so be it.
RCV very much seems like statistical sophistry, to me.
It’s not, really.
Consider Alaska. Suppose they had an ordinary primary/general election system.
Then Palin narrowly wins the R nomination and loses to Peltola in the general, as some of Begich’s voters go for Peltola. And that’s what happened with RCV.
There is nothing tricky about it.
RCV is an actual enumeration, and involves no statistical anything. It is a runoff election. It just is conducted immediately (some might say “instantly”) rather than being done a month later.
The problem with the Alaska method is that it rewards the party which only has one realistic candidate.
Not true. Given the preferences indicated by the vote Palin would have been the R nominee, and lost to Peltola, because there were a lot of voters whose ranking was Begich-Peltola-Palin.
There is nothing tricky here that helped Peltola. She won because there were enough Alaska Republicans who apparently dislike Palin enough to vote for the Democrat.
The actual thing it rewards is parties who don’t run ridiculous candidates.
We’ll be able to test this in November when they do the whole thing again, presumably with four candidates in the mix.
No, that is in fact not the problem with the Alaska method. The GOP absolutely did not lose because it had two. The Alaska method is the solution to that issue.
The reason the GOP lost is because there was no “the GOP.” There were two separate factions of the GOP that didn’t like each other. A large percentage of Begich voters either preferred Peltola to Palin or were indifferent between Peltola and Palin.
I see the instant runoff as a crude way for the public to offset political gerrymandering. If you live in a gerrymandered district where only X party will win then primary/main election does nothing for you if you favor the Z party. In RCV you can express your preference for Z, but follow up and say that in reality which of the X party candidates you find more acceptable. The current primary/main election system forces candidates to the extreme. I think a RCV system would force candidates to the middle.
This too.
It’s just another way you can vote your true preference, even if he’s a guaranteed loser, without losing your voice.
The 2 candidates who go to a traditional runoff are typically the ones with the most media coverage before the election, so I don’t see why a second round of coverage is necessary.
Your concerns about transparency apply to any election. They count the first round of ballots and post the numbers, then count the second (and subsequent rounds). How is that different from counting ballots in any other election, runoff or otherwise?
Voters may not be able to provide percentages of agreement with different candidates, but it’s unlikely that even the average voter can’t distinguish between 3 or 4 candidates based on the candidates’ parties and impressions from other sources.
AFAIC the opposition to RCV is rationalisation drive by expected or feared results.
35.5% of voters really like mangoes, are happy with pineapple, and hate bananas.
34.5% of voters really like bananas, are happy with pineapple, and hate mangoes.
30% of voters really like pineapple, but hate bananas and mangoes.
On FPTP mangoes win it. despite 64.5% of voters hating mangoes.
On a runoff between mangoes and bananas, the pineapple voters stay away, and mangoes still win it. As before, 64.5% of voters hate mangoes.
On RCV, pineapple wins, 30% of voters really liking them, 70% being happy with them, and no-one hates them.
I disagree with your starting premise. Pollsters routinely ask about rank order preferences and respondents are easily able to answer. (Whether they are telling the truth about their preferences to the pollster is irrelevant – my point is only that there is little to no delay in answering.) Maybe you won’t know your preferences deep down into the 6th or 7th tier candidates for the AlohaʻĀina Party of Hawaii or the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party of Minnesota but even average voters have information and can rank preferences for all the ones that are going to matter to them. And that’s enough for instant-runoffs to work.
“Whether they are telling the truth about their preferences to the pollster is irrelevant – my point is only that there is little to no delay in answering.”
It’s entirely relevant if you want the outcome of an election to be the product of considered judgement.
Sadly, you now rebut yourself. Elections are never the product of considered judgement. And they never have been outside the setting of a social sciences lab. They are dirty and messy.
Ranked-choice voting, however, does not make them any messier or ill-considered than they already were. Those who are going to consider candidates carefully will do so regardless.
It’s just silly to pretend voters actually have well formed rank order preferences for the candidates that they can translate into ballots.
Not really.
Alaska looks pretty straightforward. Basically, some significant number of Republican voters just couldn’t stomach Palin. Others were pure GOP voters, putting Begich and Palin 1-2 one way or the other.
I don’t think they needed to be political junkies to sensibly decide their preferences.
“Basically, some significant number of Republican voters just couldn’t stomach Palin.”
How can we know that that is what happened unless all the raw votes are publicly available?
Are you asking for each ballot, or just totals by round?
The totals are available here.
The first round was:
Begich 53,810
Palin 58,973
Peltola 75,799
Begich was dropped and Peltola got 15,467 of his votes, while Palin got 27,053. The rest were “exhausted,” which presumably means they had no second choice.
That is correct – “exhausted” is the term used in their system for ‘voters who abstained from there on’.
I fear your faith may be misplaced. I think that too large a proportion of current GOP voters are uninterested in protecting democracy ever since Obama got elected, and that attitude was reinforced after Trump[ lost in 2020. I can’t tell how many Trump voters genuinely think the election was stolen and how many are merely happy to spread the lie either as propaganda or from the
Lutherian position that it’s in a good cause but I have not heard from any Trump supporter or mainstream GOP politician any suggestion for electoral reform that would both make elections more secure and make it easier for citizens to vote.
So they’ve caught up to the Democratic party after Bush was elected, and Clinton lost in 2016. The only difference is the Democrats’ lack of meaningful action strongly indicates they are simply happy to spread the lie “for a good cause”
JFTR, you’re full of shit.
Only GOP voters?
Your partisanslip is showing.
The Democrat voters aren’t the ones getting in the way.
And the Democrats are the party trying to make voting easier. Now I doubt that this is because they are so full of the milk of human kindness rather than partisan policy – it is generally agreed, after all, that more voting favours the Democrats. But motive aside, if I’m given a choice between two parties one of which wants more citizens to vote and the other wants fewer, in this instance I prefer the former. YMMV.
“generally agreed, after all, that more voting favours the Democrat”
Not any more. Your knowledge is obsolete.
“favours”
Are you a Brit?
Well, more voting by voters the GOP tries hard to shut out.
Your knowledge is obsolete
Well, the GOP seems to agree with me. Trump said this: “They had things, levels of voting that if you’d ever agreed to it, you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again,”
He’s not the only one
Are you a Brit?
Yes, though I’ve been naturalised American for about 10 years. If it were good enough for Christopher Hitchens, it was good enough for me lol
All the MAGA assholes have these days is false equivalence to the awful stuff they’re into.
As opposed to the house progs here, who only have what caricatures in their small minds tell them.
It’s been explained six ways from Sunday how Gore and Hillary are in no way like Trump’s antics.
You just keep repeating that they are, without any explanation. Because all you really need is *a* response. An actual answer isn’t required.
Please explain to me ONE single thing (that these GOP voters you refer to) that leads you to believe that they’re uninterested in “protecting democracy”. Because I know quite a few Trump voters, and your take on them is the exact opposite of the stupid caricature you’ve designed in your head.
As for suggestions to make it more secure? It’s simple: do exactly the OPPOSITE as was done in 2020. No mail-in ballots mailed by the thousands. No questionable computer vote tallies. People vote by hand, and in person, if they’re physically able. Counts are done by hand, with an equal number of people from both parties there to supervise.
If you’d get out of your partisan bubble, you’d know that many of us have been suggesting these changes all along, including before 2020. Right now, a good portion of the right (and the left, if they’re honest enough to admit it), does not trust the current system, and until that changes, calling them “uninterested in protecting democracy” and spreaders of the “big lie” will just prove to them you’re more willing to spout talking points you’ve heard instead of actually thinking about the problem.
Jan 06 is cool with them – trying to stop the vote with violence is fine.
All of Trump’s attempts to overturn the clear will of the voters is something they condone, even approve of. Because Dems are so bad, such shenanigans are fine.
How many on this Conspiracy talk about purging the liberals out of the country? Not how democracies work!
You accuse others of being in a bubble, but it seems you only retain what you’ve read if you want to.
And you insist we indulge people who deny reality? No, appeasement does not work.
If we have trouble teaching math without interjection of politics, how can we teach civics? Can we come up with a civics course acceptable to all, or at least most?
Not a chance. Points out yet again why government-run schools are abominable indoctrination centers, as intended right from the start. Go back and read the political arguments for government schools; it was all about indoctrination in the one true hard-working Protestant ethic. They were particularly focused on outlawing Catholic schools.
Walter worries that use of the terms “Big Lie” and “election denialism” are counterproductively off-putting, alienating conservative-minded and Republican-affiliated “ordinary” citizens who otherwise could be recruited to the democracy-protecting cause. Walter offers “election fabulist” as a less objectionable label for the same “incredibly dangerous” phenomenon.
Walter should get out more. The number of potential allies put off by plain language who would sign up if we called the people we’re asking them to sign up against something more hifalutin’ is probably in the double digits.
This past Sunday, Democratic Rep. Jeremy Raskin claimed that only “Fascists” refuse to accept election results. I’m sure it will surprise no one that in 2003, Raskin declared that the 2000 presidential election was “stolen”. Democrats still claim the 2000 election was stolen and likely will until the end of time. And, of course, Hillary Clinton and her acolytes spent the entirety of the Trump presidency claiming the 2016 election had been stolen. As recently as 2020, she publicly proclaimed the election had been “stolen” from her.
So, where were all these fierce defenders of the “guardrails of democracy” then? It was their silence then that makes people doubt their sincerity now.
More “fascistic” than questioning an election result is the creepy Thought Police demand to “ACCEPT THE RESULTS! DON”T QUESTION WHAT YOUR GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU!” This very recent crusade against “misinformation” has a very Soviet vibe. I don’t much care if people believe the 2020 was stolen, or the 2016 or 2000 elections for that matter. To call it a “threat to democracy” is absurd.
Off to a good start!
Democrats still claim the 2000 election was stolen and likely will until the end of time. And, of course, Hillary Clinton and her acolytes spent the entirety of the Trump presidency claiming the 2016 election had been stolen. As recently as 2020, she publicly proclaimed the election had been “stolen” from her.
Do we really have to have this horseshit for the ten thousandth time. There is a huge difference – orders of magnitude – between some grumbling and what Trump did and is doing.
Did Clinton or Gore demand that they be arbitrarily put into the white house? Did they file dozens of pointless lawsuits? Did they provoke mobs to attack the Capitol? Did they hold the entire Democratic Party hostage to the idea that the elections were stolen? No.
What they did was something Trump has never done – which is to concede once the result was determined.
Furthermore, no one, least of all Gore, claimed that the 2000 election was “stolen” by fraud. The claim was, and is, that the SCOTUS ruling was incorrect and partisan. That’s vastly different from claiming massive fraud by the other party.
It doesn’t matter what Jamie Raskin said in 2003.
Just STFU with this cultist idiocy about how Trump is no different. It’s disgustingly dishonest BS. And stop paying attention to those who spread this crap.
The fact that you don’t even see the similarities is evidence of the thickness of your partisan blinders. Did Trump supporters say some outrageous things? Yeah. So did the Clinton and Gore supporters. Your claims of difference do not look all that different to those of us outside the parties.
There will be no progress until you recognize that you also are part of the problem.
“The fact you don’t agree with me proves you’re partisan and blind!”
–Guy who is totally objective.
That’s as empty a retort as you can get.
It’s not empty if it’s true.
First, you’re one to talk about objectivity.
Second, no, it’s still empty, true or not. Insulting someone as too biased and then leaving it there is not a useful comment to anyone.
Did Trump supporters say some outrageous things? Yeah. So did the Clinton and Gore supporters.
Oh for Pete’s sake. While I disagree that there is any equivalence there, I was talking about how the candidates themselves behaved. And you have no response because there really isn’t any comparison.
For Gore and Clinton no endless ridiculous lawsuits, no stream of lies, no mob incitement, no absurd claims that they should be installed in the White House immediately, no attempts to bully election officials, no false electors, no plots to stop the certification…..
Clinton grumbled occasionally, but she conceded the day after the election. That’s all. Gore’s behavior was the fucking polar opposite of Trump’s, and you talk about “equivalence.” Because Jamie Raskin said something in 2003.
For Pete’s sake, Rossami, look at the facts.
Al Gore’s behavior was orders of magnitude better than Trump, but it was not by any means the polar opposite.
The polar opposite would have been to hire zero lawyers, file zero court cases, and let Florida officials handle it among themselves without any pushing or suggestions, with immediate and meek acceptance of their decisions.
OK.
Nonetheless, when SCOTUS finally ruled, Gore accepted it with good grace. He did not go on claiming he had been cheated, etc…
Unlike Trump.
Bullshit it’s the exact same thing. It was Ok then and it’s Ok now. You just switched sides.
There is a huge difference – orders of magnitude – between some grumbling and what Trump did and is doing.
Absolute, bald faced nonsense. Trump isn’t doing ANYTHING different than what Gore did in 2000, other than stick to his laurels. They both fought all the way to the USSC. And since then, Democrats have whined incessantly about it, until 2020, when it was convenient for them to ignore what they said before to project onto Trump.
Another idiot to mute.
How does the Volokh Conspiracy attract such a concentration of belligerently ignorant commenters to an ostensibly academic blog?
By design, of course.
Two of the hallmarks of a fascist political party are one, they don’t accept the results of elections that don’t go their way and two, they embrace political violence. And I think that’s why President Biden was right to sound the alarm this week about these continuing attacks on our constitutional order from the outside by Donald Trump and his movement.
Zounds, what a scandal! Weird you left off the violence bit.
Need I remind you about BLM and the violence they caused in 2020? And how the Democrats egged them on? And no, don’t deny it.
Well, that’s both incorrect and off-topic.
Work with what you got, I guess!
Funny thing, I was always taught that quotation marks were for quotations. But the clip floating around twitter does not have Raskin declaring that the 2000 presidential election was “stolen.”
Where does the Biden administration’s repeated attempts to suppress speech they don’t agree with under the guise of “misinformation” sit on the scale of threats to democracy? Seems like that should be pretty high on the list.
Yes Trump did try to do something to steal the last election. But he failed – the “guardrails” everyone keeps worrying about held just fine and he really didn’t come close. At this point he’s no different than Abrams – bitching about a lost election.
Actively suppressing speech while the watchdogs are sleeping seems a lot more threatening than Trump’s caterwauling.
How many lawsuits did Abrams file? When did she sic a mob on the GA Capitol? When did she insist she be installed as governor immediately? When has she insisted she has some of the powers of the governor?
Sorry, Bevis, there is no comparison.
All of that stuff you refer to is he did, he did, he did. Past tense. I acknowledged that he did that stuff.
You ignored AT THIS POINT. Right now. Can you read that sentence and comprehend what I said? Fucking today. Today he and Abrams are exactly the same. Just a couple of whiny losers.
Neither of them are as much a threat to democracy as Biden and his speech suppression campaign.
You don’t see what Trump and his folks are doing *right now*? In statehouses, and in speeches? Yes, Trump continues to be a threat to democracy, and the movement he’s still riling up is also. And so are those who are still working plans regarding the 2024 election counting.
You can be angry at Biden, but there is no equivalence here.
Speeches. Words. Not sticks and stones.
Like Abram.
And if you don’t think that the people in power trying to suppress speech is a problem you really don’t deserve to enjoy a democracy anyway.
Words get shit done. We can’t censor him, but we can tell what he’s doing to his followers.
And that ignores the push to elect 2020 denying Trump partisans to election oversight positions. Which has been going on.
And the active opposing of any attempts to reform the system to address the stuff Trump tried last go-round.
I’m not saying you can’t criticize Biden, but don’t let that occlude the anti-democracy movement building in the GOP, fomented but in no way exclusive to Trump.
Political words? Lol. Do you understand how microscopic the signal to noise ratio is when it comes to the bleating of our political class? Trump has always received extraordinary media attention. It’s funny – they hate him so much that they ruined themselves over him but they just can’t let him go.
And yeah the Republicans don’t seem to have any policy positions beyond bitching about the last election.
What’s happening in the state houses doesn’t come close to justifying the angst. All the noise about Georgia and they just had a primary with no complaints about people being shut out. Here in Texas, best I can tell they eliminated drive thru voting and 24 hour voting. Bull Conner didn’t allow those either I guess.
Meanwhile, the current administration is SUPPRESSING SPEECH THEY DISAGREE WITH by pressuring the big platforms and the media doesn’t care. Hell, the media supports them. You don’t care either. That’s a much bigger threat to democracy than anything Trump is ever going to do.
Bevis, you will have to get used to the idea that press freedom guarantees that publishers can publish what they want to publish, and not publish what they dislike, or even fear to publish. They are even free to not publish stuff because they fear government pressure.
So if you are convinced the Biden Administration is pressuring big platforms to not publish stuff you think they should publish, you have to stop the Biden administration, not constrain the publishers. But I don’t think that is what you want. I think you want some kind of law to end press freedom, by compelling big platforms to publish items you want, but they don’t want to publish. I hope I am wrong about you.
I long ago began to insist that big platforms are out of hand, giantistic, and quasi-monopolies in the market for advertising sales. Those facts make big platforms into big problems—including big political problems. And big problems for the public life of the nation. The nation would be far better off with those problems fixed. Ending press freedom cannot be the fix.
Far better to go back to the previous publishing regime which worked better, and which no one much objected to. Public policies to encourage profusion and diversity among far more numerous private publishers are the only safe harbor press freedom has ever enjoyed. It was Section 230 which destroyed that system. To get rid of Section 230 would be the first step to getting that former system back.
If you are serious in your objections, you ought to agree with me about that, and join to advocate an end to Section 230. If you are unwilling to do that, then I reluctantly conclude you are not forthright. Perhaps you just want a broken, abusive, monopolistic publishing regime to stick around, but do more for you.
There are a lot of folks like you. I predict you will either all get your way, and wreck the last chance for press freedom to endure and recover. Or you will all suffer growing frustration, until at least some of you figure out that what you want you cannot have and still enjoy press freedom.
I hold out faint hope that some of you will in your frustration change your minds. I hope you can recognize that public policy to encourage diversity and profusion among private publishers is really the only constructive way out of the mess created by passage of Section 230. Help get rid of it, and you won’t need to be so frustrated.
A whole lot of words to completely misread me and miss the point. I don’t care what people choose to publish or not publish. I can just ignore those that demonstrate so much bias that I can’t trust their accuracy.
The elephant in the room you ignored in your pamphlet is the pressure from the executive branch of the government to not publish certain things that they disapprove of. That makes it unconstitutional and frankly is every bit as impeachable as anything trump did.
Lathrop your a looney if you think anything I’ve said to mean that I think a law is needed to suppress the press. I’m the biggest advocate for freedom of speech on this board, and certainly much more than you.
Frankly, you’re delusional b
Missed the mark by a 100 miles. The Biden administration ACTIVELY PRESSURED social media companies to shut down speech. Period. This has NOTHING to do with whether companies can decide to publish or not publish something.
How is it that you don’t see that?
There was a mob of pink hats at the Capitol. And filing a lawsuit, not against the law.
A mob of pink hats? That’s your comparison to Jan 06?!
What side do you think you’re on, anyway?
When Democrats are skeptical of election outcomes, they are heroes. When Republicans are skeptical of election outcomes, they are dangers to the nation and must be discredited, silenced, and investigated.
“they are heroes”
Yeah, Stacey Abrams gets cameos on Star Trek!
DB, do you consider the Pillow Guy “skeptical” or just bat-shit crazy?
Skeptical people had their chance(s) already with the courts – and all lost.
— with an exception or two….
Which proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the system did what it was supposed to do. There never was, and there isn’t currently, a thread to “democracy”. It’s political pablum to say so.
Defining “election denialism” as solely a thing done by Trump about 2020 is complete partisan horse crap and, of course, very convenient. Rightfully derided by the vast majority of GOP voters, only accepted by a small rump of people who voted for Trump neither time.
Calling Trump’s like 5 different ways he tried to overturn the 2020 election the ordinary course of politics is insultingly incorrect.
I’d be amazed, but you continually talk about the virtues of lying in politics, so I presume this is just your usual.
After all, it’s not a lie if enough supporters believe it, eh?
“ordinary course of politics”
Not what I said.
I said that “election denialism” takes many forms. “Selected not elected”, “Diebold!”, “voter purges”, “2004 EC challenge”, “Lincoln electors”, but Democrats think its only Trump.
You are equating things that are different in kind and magnitude, because they are part of the same broad category.
That is a insufficient, and clearly so. A raspberry and a dozen pineapples are the same type, but I know which one I’d like thrown at me.
No, they’re not different in kind OR in magnitude. Period. The fact that the media does its best to make Trump and his followers deeds the number one issue on the planet doesn’t change that point. Your problem is that you drank the kool-aid.
It’s BS from top to bottom.
Well, if you say so with no logic or evidence other than your own anger, then that’s the same as proving!
Also putting the word “denial” after something is also a sign that the person saying it is a complete idiot.
It’s like a Spanish Inquisition statement.
To quote GOP Congressman Joe Wilson, “You lie!”
So incredibly dumb Reason. Protesting elections is free speech. There was no attempt to over turn it.
BUT idiots like the author are now part of our allegedly independent judiciary. And they collude with the executive which bypasses the checks and balances that are supposed to be there.
That’s the danger. Not challenging elections as has also been done in 2000, 2004 and 2016.
Let’s get all the Titanic deck chairs neatly aligned!
Ranked choice elections are designed to benefit candidates who would lose the runoff election in a traditional race, and have no place in our electoral system.
There was so much plainly documented malfeasance in the 2020 election that anyone who claims that contesting the outcome is unreasonable exposes genuine ill-will toward our republic. Former Attorney General Barr is Exhibit A, instructing US Attorneys not to investigate claims when they might have resulted in timely challenges to the electors and continually refusing to admit that fraud occurred.
Other than that, great essay.
There was so much plainly documented malfeasance in the 2020 election
No. There wasn’t. So STFU.
” There was so much plainly documented malfeasance in the 2020 election ”
Tell it to the judge, clinger.
Oh, wait. You dumbasses did. Repeatedly. And your lawyers are going to be disbarred for making such stupid claims for such worthless, disgusting, un-American clients.
You’re a deplorable loser, Yogis_dad. Thank you for being the kind of counterproductive right-wing misfit who has made it so easy for better Americans to win the culture war at your expense.
There was so much plainly documented malfeasance in the 2020 election that not a single Trump-appointed judge ruled that there was, and more than one excoriated the Trump lawyers for what they tried to argue.