The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Section Three Disqualification
The first government official has been removed by judicial order for participating in the January 6th "insurrection"
One of the lingering issues arising from the events of January 6, 2021 has been whether it would resuscitate the little used Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment. Section Three provides:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
The January 6th riot has been called an "insurrection" at various points, including in the second House impeachment of President Donald Trump. There has been a fair amount of interest in making use of Section Three to disqualify various participants in that riot from holding future public office.
Of course, the big target here is Donald Trump himself. There are many challenges to using Section Three to disqualify Trump from being inaugurated for a second term as president, but the legal theories are being tested on some smaller fish.
Representative Madison Cawthorn battled a ballot challenge on a Section Three argument in North Carolina, but his failure to win his primary election largely ended that challenge. The Fourth Circuit did address a limited set of issues in that case.
Today a judge in New Mexico gave the advocates of Section Three their first serious victory. This was a much easier case than the Cawthorn challenge or any possible Trump challenge.
Cuoy Griffin was a county commissioner in New Mexico and a founder of Cowboys for Trump. He's been a vocal proponent of various election conspiracies, ordered an "audit" of election returns in his county, and obstructed the certification of the primary election results in his county in 2022.
Griffin also participated in the events of January 6th. He was not among the worst offenders. He did not enter the building itself, but stood on an exterior landing exhorting the crowd. As did so many, he had himself livestreamed to his social media audience while doing so. In subsequent days, he celebrated the riot and urged further armed activities in the future.
Unlike Cawthorn, Griffin was convicted in a federal court for his role in the riot and given a short jail sentence. He was not, however, convicted of seditious conspiracy but rather for a misdemeanor offense. His was one of the first trials prosecuted by the Justice Department.
In today's action, the New Mexico judge held that the events of January 6th amounted to an insurrection within the terms of the Fourteenth Amendment and that Griffin had engaged in and aided that insurrectionary activity. Making use in part of my casebook co-author Mark Graber's historical research, the judge concluded that Section Three's language regarding insurrection and those who engaged in it had a fairly broad meaning in the nineteenth century.
Defendant traveled across the country to participate in a demonstration the purpose of which was to stop, impede, and delay the constitutionally-mandated process of counting electoral votes and, in turn, the certification of Joe Biden's election as President. Defendant knowingly breached barricades put in place by the Capitol Police to prevent interference with Congress's election-certification proceedings. He illegally trespassed onto the steps of the Capitol, where he proclaimed that it was a "great day for America!" as fellow Trump supporters assaulted law enforcement, smashed in the windows of the Capitol building, forced their way inside, and halted the electoral vote count. Defendant was then criminally charged for unlawfully breaching and occupying restricted Capitol grounds and engaging in "disruptive conduct" to "impede and disrupt" Congress's certification of the 2020 presidential election.
Defendant personally contributed to the overwhelming of law enforcement by
entering through the site of the initial breach of the Capitol Police's security perimeter at the Capitol's West Front grounds, where crowds first began to flow into restricted areas and "all available" Capitol Police units were immediately deployed. By breaching these barricades and illegally remaining on restricted Capitol grounds for an hour and a half, Defendant contributed to the chaos that delayed Congress's election-certification proceedings.While at the insurrection, Defendant relished in the violent attack on the heart of American democracy and later threatened further such attacks unless the insurrectionists' false and debunked claims of election fraud were addressed.
A sitting government official who actively engaged in the riot itself would seem to be the low-hanging fruit of the Section Three effort. We'll see what happens next with this case and future ones.
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As the corrupt judge in Florida shows everyone how bad our judiciary has become, it is nice to know there are some honest judges out there.
Jan 6 was a pro-democracy protest. It is being intentionally, and hysterically mislabelled by lying skank Democrats as an insurrection. Any disagreement with the government is an insurrection by that measure.
Lawyer scum conducting lawfare against 73 million voters. They should start a list. and come looking for these internal enemies.
"corrupt judge in Florida "
How "corrupt"?
Overmatched and partisan does not necessarily (or perhaps even customarily) constitute corrupt.
I have seen no evidence of corruption. I have not heard a credible allegation of corruption.
I have seen no evidence of corruption.
I have seen no evidence of legal training.
"Disqualifying" opposition politicians from holding office for supposed crimes.
Where have I seen this before?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-factbox/factbox-venezuelas-jailed-exiled-or-barred-opposition-politicians-idUSKCN1G31WU
Those are load bearing scare quotes. Unless you think running for office makes you immune to investigation.
Well, it does appear to be something 3rd world countries do to opposing politicians they don't like. Find a "crime" and make sure the politician can't run because of the "crime."
"Sorry Mr. Brown. You've been convicted of (Trespassing/speeding/jaywalking). Due to this, you can no longer run for political office. You're also conveniently the politician from the opposing party"
I don't want to be too unkind but you clearly have no understanding of litigation. Trump may have prevailed on the motion but in no way did he win. He LOST, Big Time. He lost this one months ago its true when he and his lawyers turned a housekeeping matter into a criminal case.
Now this goes to a special master and Trump has to figure out something the Special Master is going to do other than cull privileged info or maybe documents covered by executive privilege. Who cares?
But that doesn't change the fact that the FBI found a trove of classified documents that make my teenage daughters room look exquisitely organized. And he can't appeal. He won. He can't complain, he won. He effectively has affirmed the warrant and can't appeal or complain he won. He now has to come up with a protocol for what the Special Master must cull. And by his lawyers responses to the judge last week they have no clue. They would have much preferred to lose. Now in the criminal case how are they going to exclude evidence? Trump's special master has said it was ok. Beyond Malpractice.
Law is often Toppsy Turvey Land where up is down and down is up. This is one of those cases.
He lost this one months ago its true when he and his lawyers turned a housekeeping matter into a criminal case.
I agree, and made a similar point in one of the other multitude of threads on this issue. From a legal perspective, his actions make no sense. If he had actual concerns about turning over certain documents because he felt they were privileged, there are perfectly legitimate approaches to take. Submitting a false statement to the FBI, while keeping the documents in your office, is probably the stupidest. Other approaches with a higher probability of success include a shredder and a big bonfire "for making s'mores," and/or a waterproof container, shovel and a pumpkin patch.
Or did the FBI lie, again? That you marxists reflexively believe them despite their history of outright fraud is sad.
Do you consider Donald Trump more credible in this context?
How often does the world go the way you want or expect it to?
I'm guessing you missed the DOJ announcement the folders classified were empty.
I'm looking forward to your reaction when it's announced zero documents found were classified. I'm expecting a text book case of cognitive dissonance.
Some folders were empty. That likely creates rather than solves problems for Trump. An educated, informed, and experienced person would recognize that.
Your joking, right? Do you seriously believe that empty classified folders were transported from D.C. to Mar-a-Lago in January 2021? Won't you be surprised when it turns out that those folders -- when they arrived in Florida -- contained classified documents that have now disappeared. Shredded? Burned? Given out as souvenirs to friends and donors? Given to the ghost-writer who is writing Trump's memoirs for him? You must be just as excited as the rest of us to find out.
We already know there were no classified documents at all at Mar-a-Lago.
Why? Because Trump had plenipotentiary power to declaring anything he wanted and wrote a memo doing so.
Now I suppose Joe can reclassify them, but that doesn't then make possession a crime unless Trump is notified document by document of the reclassification.
But as for the empty folders, if possession is 9/10's of the law, what's lack of possession?
I'm not holding my breath waiting for indictments, but by all means hold your breath as long as you want.
Your disaffectedness and bigotry have broken your brain.
Replacement will take care of that.
Even he isn't claiming he declassified them!
Eleven folders were found empty which raised serious national security concerns about the missing contents.
Given the astonishing behaviour of that judge, an indictment may be pointless - Trump may actually be above the law. Fantastic, isn't it?
Nige
September.7.2022 at 6:45 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Eleven folders were found empty which raised serious national security concerns about the missing contents."
Lets discuss really serious national security concerns
Hillary server - remember purple and magic codes
JCOAP - nuclear weapon facilitation agreement with IRAN
cia f/uwith iraq
pay for play with hillary
bribery payoff with Iran
these classified doc are very small potatoes compared to just a few of those mentioned above.
Yeah, but the government documents and empty folders in Lar A Lago were real, your list is just made up. Which, again, shows just how low down a priority national security is to Republicans.
Nige - you have a serious detachment from reality
A) you are purely speculating as to the what documents were actually in those empty folders
Real national security issues
1) JCAOP
2) hillary server - complete disregard for the relevant issue and security - complete disregard of the lessons learned from magic and purple
3) hillary bribery/pay for play
4) cia f/u with intellegience in iraq
5) hostage ransom with iran
Again - in terms of real national security issues, the empty folders are very small potatoes
I haven't speculated at all aout the contentcs of thise folders, only pointed out that the problem is their whereabouts right now.
Also, I stand corrected, 4 and 5 are egregious - I misread them the first time, sincere apologies, but that does not change the fact that the documents in Mar A Lago and the circus around them, the lack of any apparent urgency and the massive leeway being afforded to trump have done serius damage to the reputation of US national security.
the iran nuclear deal is extremely egregious
Hillary 's unsecured server was extremely egregious - only ones defending it are those that ignore the obvious lessons from magic or purple.
Hillary' bribery/pay for play is in many ways very similar to the pay for play that the biden family played with china and ukraine.
Again - the classified docs at mar-a-l are seriously small potatoes in the grand scheme.
Well, it was working, so I can understand why Republicans wouldn't like it.
Only a handful of the emails sent to her server were classified, and nobody's ever tried to claim they were in any way important, so, no, not egregious at all.
Hialry's bribery stuff is wrapped in so much right-wing smearing and lies who knows what's ture about it.
You don't know what was in the documents or where the missing ones have ended up, you have zero grounds for that claim. Meanwhile, US allies and enemies are looking at this treatment of secret documents and intelligence and will no doubt draw their conclusions.
Nige
September.7.2022 at 9:37 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Well, it was working, so I can understand why Republicans wouldn't like it."
Yes the JCOAP is working to facilitate Iran getting a nuclear bomb - that is exactly why republicans dont like it
Nige
September.7.2022 at 9:37 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Only a handful of the emails sent to her server were classified, and nobody's ever tried to claim they were in any way important, so, no, not egregious at all."
Only a handful were classified - what about the 30K missing emails?
Only a handful were classified - what about the bleach bit server?
Lets be fully honest and intellectually consistent
Only a handful
Yes, it was working, then Republicans wrecked it, and now Iran are getting nukes.
Were any of the deleted emails classifed? It was Clinton's work e-mail, it was not used for classified e-mails.
ige
September.7.2022 at 10:20 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Yes, it was working, then Republicans wrecked it, and now Iran are getting nukes."
Nige - you are seriously deluded regarding the Iran Nuke deal.
the original deal negotiated by obama facilitated iran developing nukes. Yes the republics wrecked it - which slowed the process. The new revised iran nuke deal is much worse than the original deal negotiated by obama.
https://www.hudson.org/research/18158-seven-myths-about-the-iran-nuclear-deal
You seriously need to get a better grasp of reality
The Republicans killed the deal, which was working, and now Republicans are to blame for Iran developing nikes and trying to blame Obama. Typical Republicans.
Nige
September.7.2022 at 12:45 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"The Republicans killed the deal, which was working, and now Republicans are to blame for Iran developing nikes and trying to blame Obama. Typical Republicans."
Reality - the final frontier .
Read the following
https://www.hudson.org/research/18158-seven-myths-about-the-iran-nuclear-deal
The Republicans killed the deal, which was working. They're to blame for Iran getting nukes.
Randal
September.7.2022 at 5:04 pm
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"The Republicans killed the deal, which was working. They're to blame for Iran getting nukes."
It takes some serious delusion from reality to believe the JCPOA was designed and working to reduce Irans nuclear program.
You're right, it was obviously not designed to reduce their nuclear program. This is the same slippery game that your Hudson article is playing, which offers a lot of spin, but does nothing to refute what Nige and I are saying. If anything, it's confirmation.
After the United States left the JCPOA in 2018, Iran violated its terms in multiple ways—such as by enriching uranium to 60 percent purity, stockpiling tons of enriched uranium, and experimenting with uranium metallurgy.
Randall - both you and nige are claiming that it was working until trump/republicans stopped from working.
It never worked and it was designed to facilitate iran developing a nuclear bomb.
Trump had plenipotentiary power to declaring anything he wanted and wrote a memo doing so.
Plenipotentiary is...a choice.
Also: wrote a memo?
It was a mental memo to himself.
This doesn't hold up.
Assuming (arguendo) that Trump was able to create a blanket declassification scheme for any classified document he took back to his golf club, they would need to be tracked by the administration, DOD, and any other impacted agency. So we would have a list of them. And they'd be declassified, meaning anyone could submit a FOIA request and get a copy. This would include any US citizen, news organization, or foreign agent.
IOW: it would dramatically reduce the value of the documents to Trump. Since when has Trump ever been generous to anyone about anything?
As Bill Barr said, it's actually worse if he haphazardly declassified a bunch of stuff that shouldn't have been.
The list would be of everything the GSA packed(Which they would have recorded) and sent to Mar A Lago before Jan 20th. Unless you have evidence that he removed documents after he was no longer president. Do you?
They didn't announce that.
The classification status is irrelevant to the whole thing, except in the broader since of Republicans now putting Trump ahead of national security.
Empty folders?
Seems odd
If docs are removed from folders labeled classified, why keep the folders? Why not remove the empty folder and destroy ?
Maybe they were keepsakes? I understand he also had some cocktail napkins in there.
fwiw - the folders may have contained actual sensitive and classified info (or they may not have contained actual sensitive info)
or that classified info may have been declassified
or that classified info may now be public info. lots of info is public info that remains "classified" for gov purposes.
Point being is that it is all speculation as to the true level of "classified info"
This is an extraordinary condition of uncertainty for a bunch of classified documents to be in.
He doesn't give a shit, Nige.
All he cares about is that Democrats are Bad and Republicans are Good.
Jason Cavanaugh
September.7.2022 at 11:33 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"He doesn't give a shit, Nige.
All he cares about is that Democrats are Bad and Republicans are Good."
How about intellectual honesty without the double standard
Wasn't an empty classified folder discovered on display in a bar in Trump Tower? That kind of memorabilia is gold!
When I had classified documents, I usually kept the folders in my safe after I returned the documents. It is not so unusual to keep the folders.
All Trump has to do is prove he returned the documents, or took them away empty. Not holding my breath.
No disagreement that Trump has to show that he returned those documents that were recorded as being in his possession when he left office.
As to what was in those particular folders there is no way of knowing they are not tallied as part of the documents
Try to be precise.
The 'no way of knowing' is the problem.
Not a problem with the folders.
What is a problem is that the FBI receipt did not specify documents o pby document number and serial number. Those are the only things that are tracked (unless there is a bar code in addition).
If documents were moved without detailed records. It would be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any documents are actually missing. The FBI may have a detailed tally sheet, but if they do, we do not know about it.
I consider that to be a serious flaw in any investigation of document mishandling that is politically highly charged.
I would suppose securing documents that appear to be missing and proving some sort of crime has been committed in their handling and disposition are actually seperate concerns.
His real error was supposing Justice had enough integrity to treat him like Hillary Clinton or Sandy Berger.
Sandy Berger was prosecuted.
so, this brainiac got jail time but Ray Epps didn't? Ok...
Just like all those FBI and Antifa agitators whom nothing at all happened too.
Makes sense. Two sets of systems of justice.
He breached the barricades. You left out that part. I’m not surprised.
Oh dear. Just like thousands of other rioters that year.
Not to the US Capitol, which was in session at the time.
So? Its just a fancy government office building.
Violent rioters breached the barriers at the US courthouse in Portland multiple times. Set fires multiple times. Assaulted more officers than on January 6 too.
Hundreds of protestors invaded the Wisconsin capitol a decade ago over the union law, occupied the rotunda for weeks. Elected Dem senators ran out of state to prevent votes as part of the "protests". Was that an "insurrection" against the Wisconsin state government?
Trying to create a “good for the goose, good for the gander” argument based on Portland is absurd. One, everyone who attacked property is subject to criminal charge. If they attack federal property, surely they can be charged by the reds and not just the local liberal DA. Two, I’m not aware of anyone in Portland attempting to breach a government building to disrupt an election.
Yes, and they got out on bail...with the bail money paid by rich progressives including now VP Harris. Oh, when they showed up for the criminal cases, the bail money was paid TO THEM. Such a deal. And they got free legal assistance. Did they spend months locked up in jail, in solitary confinement? No. And the people funding their bail and defense are praised as heroes.
Meanwhile, progressives are trying to block any funding to assist the January 6 rioters.
Double standards and hypocrisy.
That’s such a vast overgeneralization. Seriously, Harris paid bail for all the people in Portland charged with crimes? I think not. This has been debunked. Bail is also presumed. If denied, this guy could have appealed it. Otherwise, I’d assume a judge denying bail considered appropriate factors and found it inappropriate here for reasons I really doubt you will consider thoughtfully.
The “your rioters are worse than our rioters” game is really pointless. As is the “other people rioted too so my side is blameless” game.
Point being, there suddenly seems to be two sets of laws....
I'm sure any government officials found guilty of breaching barricades in Portland could have been dealt with in a similar or otherwise appropriate fashion.
I hear AOC is still a sitting member of Congress for some reason, despite her actions...
Must have been different actions from the ones under discussion, so.
Off topic deflection means you are losing AL.
Two sets of laws really means no laws.
Luckily, there is only one set of laws, and a bunch of false equivalences.
A bunch of straw grasping doesn't mean we're a lawless country, just one full of sad partisans straining to defend the indefensible.
Or course there is. I mean, this is just a big "no duh" moment.
There are laws that make disorderly conduct, vandalism, and other acts of violence that occur in a riot illegal.
There are other laws that make interfering in an act of Congress and elections illegal.
Portland rioters are guilty of the first set. The Jan 6th insurrectionists and rioters are guilty of both.
Two sets. Which apply depends on what you did. That's how our legal system works, right?
Also, republicans tried the “run out of the state capitol to prevent a vote” on legislation they didn’t like in Oregon too. That’s not an exclusively liberal tactic, and I think it’s dumb. But again, not intending to disrupt an election.
Not sure I'd agree that it's "dumb." It gets a lot of news attention and scores political points. Otherwise, I don't recall it ever changing the immediate outcome. But if your only rational move is to shine some light on it and make more people aware, that could have future benefits.
Dem government worship is just awful. Desecrated the Temple, did they?
I love the idea that the 'thousands' of rioters that year were all government officials letting off steam.
Yet another word that has been stripped of its original well-understood meaning and repurposed to support overwrought memes like this one.
He walked across a place where a barricade used to be. He breached nothing.
He was convicted of a crime with knowledge. Walking across a barricade that others broke down doesn’t excuse it. If I see someone beak into a house and I just follow them in, I’m still trespassing.
All well and good. But did you notice how you managed to describe that without resorting to melodramatic abuse of the English language? I have to wonder if you'd have seen this opinion issue had the judge been similarly disciplined. "Disqualified from elected office due to 14-day misdemeanor sentence" doesn't have a particularly sexy ring to it.
He was disqualified on the authority of the United States Constitution.
Convicted of a misdemeanor.
all those FBI and Antifa agitators whom nothing at all happened too.
Keep fucking that chicken.
You can't gaslight your way out of the facts.
You have provided no facts, though.
Do you realize how self-deprecating it is each time you guys accuse Sarcastr0 of "gaslighting" you? You're not particularly self-deprecating in any other context, so I assume you don't... which makes it even funnier.
Keep it up!
Oh and, you're basically admitting that he's right and you're wrong. Just FYI.
What about the chicken?
Sarcastro maybe was attacked by a chicken as a child. This explains his animus/indifference to their fate.
What precipitated conservatives’ animus toward modern America?
Spoiler: Reason, progress, inclusiveness, tolerance, science . . .
How long until this reaches SCOTUS?
A long time, if ever. Has to go thru the state appeals process up to the state supreme court. Then an appeal to the USSC which they don't have to take.
Several years at least.
It won't reach SCOTUS, because the 14th amendment clearly doesn't apply in this case. I don't think county commissioner would come under the rubric of any of the proscribed categories:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States,"
There really is no colorable argument that a county commissioner comes under any of those categories.
So it probably won't even get past the next level in state court, unless its based on some state law, and since New Mexico became a state in 1912 I don't think insurrection was probably a big topic then.
Which part of the State government do you think a county commissioner falls under?
Its certainly not as "member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer."
County commissioner is a county council, its not an executive, or judicial office, and its certainly not a State Legislature.
You failed to answer my question.
One of the cases cited in the ruling we are discussing is United States v. Powell. Powell was charged under a Federal statute which made it a misdemeanor to accept or hold any office for which the individual is ineligible under section 3 of the 14th Amendment. From the judge's charge to the jury:
If your claim is that the bolded claim is wrong, then it seems reasonable to expect you to state what other type of officer exists. (If you are wondering, the judge later says that the office of county constable, which Powell held before the war, is an executive office. The office of county sheriff, which Powell allegedly held after the war despite being ineligible, is presumably an executive office as well.)
Powell may be right, I can also see a 4th category 'Magistrative' where an individual has none of the discretion inherent in a legislative, judicial or executive office, but I digress.
What Powell seems to have missed though is that while the 14th amendment seems to be pretty lackadaisical about defining state judicial or executive offices, it was very specific to one kind of state legislative office, only a "State legislature", State is even capitalized to make sure there is no confusion about lesser legislative offices under the state, like say, a county councilman.
Now that I look at Powell I see that case involves a county sheriff where I don't think there is any doubt its an executive office, recognized by the state constitution.
But this is a county commissioner which is most assuredly is not a membe of a State legislature.
Executive officer is at least colorable. But I agree it's a stretch.
Well, we have to see how the 17 Justices align.
Griffin was found not guilty on the charge of disorderly conduct "with intent to impede and disrupt the orderly conduct of Government business and official functions". The conviction was for violating the Secret Service's protective perimeter around the building where the Vice President was working. I don't consider that disqualifying.
"Insurrection" could end up like "crime of violence" before the Supreme Court narrowed the laws defining it. It could be almost anything depending on the whim of the judge. It could be a virtuous but criminal protest without any relation to Trump.
I wish I could find it, but I read a very convincing piece a while back, arguing that from 1868 until Jan 5, 2021, the Disqualification Clause was understood to be talking about the Civil War/Confederacy, and only that. The subsequent statutory amnesties basically rendered the clause a nullity.
Some people have argued that. None persuasively. Most have not been lawyers. Some seemed to struggle with standard English.
If they'd meant it to be restricted to the Civil War, they would have said so.
It wasn't just the language of the DQ, it was the DQ as supplemented by the subsequent amnesties.
So a misdemeanor conviction can constitute insurrection. Well, progressives argue that "silence" = "violence." With that as a standard, we could argue that Biden's speech last week also constituted violent insurrection. Throw the bum out.
Dorkuses, disqualification under the 14th doesn't depend on ancillary convictions. It's an interesting aside that he was convicted of a related crime, but a person could be disqualified from office without having any criminal convictions whatsoever.
I think the due process clause, ironically also part of the 14th amendment would require some process to determine whether someone actually participated in the alleged insurrection.
Why would the disqualification hearing not suffice?
Due process needn't require conviction of a related crime, though, so not sure why you think that's responsive to Randal's point.
I doubt Due Process even applies, since the result of the inquiry isn't a deprivation of life, liberty, or property. I suspect that qualification for office counts instead as a privilege or immunity.
Maybe the Due Process clauses of the 14th Amendment and the 5th Amendment no longer apply to Republicans and Conservatives.
In fact, lots of people were, right after the Civil war.
The problem with doing it today is that it's not right after a civil war. That really makes a difference. Back in the 1860's, you had an absurdly clear cut case, whole states had seceded, openly. So there wasn't a lot of need of procedure.
There's no such situation today, and half the population doesn't even agree that what took place on January 6th even WAS an "insurrection". So applying Section 3 calls out for some serious process, more than some local judge saying, "Yup, looks like insurrection to me!".
Well you can put that in your constitution when you secede.
Adios, vaquero. Don't let the barn door hit your horse in the ass on the way out.
The "logic" of this decision makes any riot where a police barrier is disturbed in front of a US government building an "insurrection".
If applied across the board, such a result might be ok as far as I'm concerned but this is a onetime only kind of logic.
Did you read the OP?
By breaching these barricades and illegally remaining on restricted Capitol grounds for an hour and a half, Defendant contributed to the chaos that delayed Congress's election-certification proceedings.
Seems a bit more limited than your wishful writing to me!
Breached barriers. Being in a restricted area. Contributing to "chaos" [whatever that means].
Sounds like many a anti-government riot.
The nebulous "contributed to", an unmeasurable nonsense phrase used to make nothing sound like something super serious.
Nice new goalposts, Bob.
You said: 'The "logic" of this decision makes any riot where a police barrier is disturbed in front of a US government building an "insurrection".'
I pointed out the specific facts that distinguish this scenario, and you pivot to whining about some of the words not being concrete.
Erratum: The link is to the complaint, not the judge’s opinion.
You can go to
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22275517-ruling-on-couy-griffins-eligibility-to-run-for-officer
There's a link to the PDF version of the opinion in the right side panel.
I've downloaded it but haven't even begun to read it.
I'm curious how much of an analysis was given to "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof". The second operative act, if the definition of what constitutes an "insurrection or rebellion" can at all be sustained, provides a lot of room for abuse.
Suppose an official has published an essay arguing for substantial modification or even replacement of our current form of government - not an outlandish or intellectually-inconceivable position - and the insurrectionists or rebels are inspired by it and initiate action based upon it; or perhaps it is published after their actions and they use it to "salve their consciences". (I realize there are Freedom of Speech issues but I'll defer those here.) Could that be construed as "giv[ing] aid or comfort?
Suppose you express support for a movement, and the movement goes on to do a riot....
Read the Time Magazine article about the [self-described] conspiracy involving the 2020 election. In particular, read about how demonstrations were planned for every major city in the US. That sounds more like a conspiracy to engage in an insurrection than Jan 6.
Demonstrations.
Jan 06 was manifestly not a 'demonstration.'
If it is the writer's error it is a corrigendum not an erratum. That is for errors by the publisher
Interesting that not only is the writ of quo warranto alive and well in New Mexico, but any citizen who is a resident of the applicable jurisdiction can petition for one and get a judge to rule an official is holding office unlawfully and order hom chucked out, with no special standing requirement of any kind.
Surprise other quo warranto suits haven’t been filed.
This decision looks ripe to be overturned on appeal. If not, I agree with ReaderY that we should use this decision as a model for getting rid of politicians we don't like.
Words mean only what progressives want them to mean. "Sex" means...anything. What was once a simple binary is now a complex matter thanks to a court ruling. So be it. Let's strip all words of their meaning. Once we lose language, how long will it be before we give up the rest of civilization.
What was once a simple binary
It was never a simple binary. It's just that most people - except rabbis or developmental biologists, for example - didn't know better.
It is a simple binary. Instances where humans are not biologically male or female are genetic/biologic errors and occur less than 1 case in 7,000.
The next time I interact directly with someone's DNA, and don't mind ignoring like 47K Americans, I'll be sure and remember that!
Errors? These are people.
And Trespassing. On the steps. Of our public Capitol Building. While our "public servants" were in session. Doing public work. Open -theoretically - to the public.
Really seems like that time they had a great reason not to be open to the public, eh?
You can claim trespassing, but you and I both know what they were there to try and do. And there are tons of charging documents which include social media posts laying out exactly what they were prepared to do to get there.
"but you and I both know what they were there to try and do."
You see, there's a continual problem you have: It's not enough for you to have your own opinions; You bizarrely insist that people who are publicly and vehemently disagreeing with you share them. They're just perversely denying it, I guess.
No, we DON'T both "know" what they were there to try and do. Try to free yourself from that delusion. We actually disagree about what they were there to try and do.
Yes, I don't think anyone in good faith thinks the Jan 06 crowd was 'tourists' or merely trespassed.
That includes you. I've not heard you say they intended a sit-in, but if you did, I would think you were lying.
I think a significant fraction of the Jan 06 crowd, (And that's excluding the biggest part of the crowd, the people who attended Trump's speech and didn't enter the Capitol building.) probably were just tourists, guilty of unknowing trespass.
Capitol Police Suspends 6 Officers, Investigates Dozens More After Capitol Riots
"Videos from the day of the attack appear to show some officers escorting rioters inside the building. In one video, USCP officers can be seen opening barricades allowing the mob to enter the Capitol complex without resistance."
If you arrived after the hullabaloo, with the barricades cleared out of the way, and people freely entering and leaving, you might very well have thought that the Capitol was open to the public. And some people have been getting off on that basis, if they hadn't already pled guilty just to get out of jail on time served.
OTOH, I think there were certainly a core group who were there with criminal intent, and premeditated at that. But, criminal intent to what? Force Congress to crown Trump? Force them to send it back to the states for examination? Hell if I know, and I'm amazed you're certain.
Big if. And, of course, that would provide a pretty easy defense. But most of the folks going up right now have pretty extensive records of what they planned to do, and did. No one yet has claimed they wandered in by accident.
Criminal intent does not require a specific story or plan, and mobs rarely have one.
How many 'tourists' does the Capitol entertain on that date normally?
How many of those 'tourist' visits involve breaching barricades, smashing windows, crushing police officers, and chants indicating the desires to hang the Vice President and Speaker of the House?
If you arrived after the hullabaloo, you saw all the news reports about the hullabaloo before you arrived.
Brett thinks that what people say and do cannot be used to figure out what they think. Unless of course they're Democrats, in which case it can be used to prove nefarious intent.
Did the Capitol seem open to the public that day to you?
Don’t be a disaffected, contrarian, un-American jerk. Or, at least, try.
Nothing says "Come on in!" like a staffed police barrier.
If the facts of Jan. 6 had been put to everyone here as a hypothetical ten years ago, everyone would have agreed it was an "insurrection" under the 14A, and that this man was part of it. No exceptions.
" everyone would have agreed it was an "insurrection" under the 14A, and that this man was part of it. No exceptions."
Since you are a great mind reader, what are the next MegaMillions numbers? We can split it.
When it happened in a state capitol 10 years ago...it was "Democracy in action".
But those were DEMOCRATS storming the capitol.
When it happened several times at the US Capitol during the Kavanaugh hearings, eventually forcing the entire Capitol complex to close for a day, disrupting the proceedings multiple times, it was awesome and an amazing display of the people's power.
Because it was Democrats doing it.
Shouting 'shame' is not the same as actively hunting for Congresspeople, calling their name, and injuring police officers to get there.
This attempt at equivalence is not going to play for anyone who isn't already into Trump taking power by hook or by crook.
One is worse than the other, but both were acts of tresspassing which attempted to interfere with, and did interfere with and delay, the business of Congress. So why is the one insurrection and the other not? That's really the rub, not whether they are "equivalent" but whether they both qualify as an "insurrection" under whatever definition of that term you want to use.
One is worse than the other, but both were acts of trespassing
So why is the one insurrection and the other not?
For the same reason one is worse. You've already conceded the argument; they are distinguishable.
Are you a moron or just play one on TV? Both seem to fit the definition of an insurrection that is being used here by posters.
You can have the same crime and one be worse than another. Person A tortures someone to death. Person B slips poison into the person's drink and person dies quietly in his sleep. Both are murder.
Do you have even a basic understanding of how law works, or are you just playing for the galleries?
You said: "one is worse than the other"
You also argued that you cannot say one is insurrection and the other is not.
You cannot consistently say both things. In the first you draw a a line, in the second you say no line can be drawn.
You're not citing or mentioning any criminal statutes (till just now), but making a broader logical point. Right after you contradicted it.
You can bluster all you want and appeal to your own authority, but your muddy thinking has betrayed you. Be a better lawyer, even if it makes you a worse partisan.
So, you really are a moron. Let me see if I can set you straight, but I doubt it.
Insurrection is a term in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. If someone previously took an oath of office to support the COnstitution, and then participated in an Insurrection, he is disqualified from further office.
To fall within that disqualification, one must have participated in an "Insurrection." The definition most seem to be using here is an act of invading a government building to interfere with the funciton ot the government. As to which both events qualify. (So would a protest that attacks and shuts down a federal court in Portland Oregon.)
That one is worse than the other is neither here nor there. If you meet the definition, you meet the definition, whether you barely do so or also engage in egregious conduct, just like the two murders are murder in my example.
The fact that you don't grasp this means that either you are being purposefully stupid or are stupid. I suspect the former, and that the reality here is you sympathize with some protests and not others.
So, in fact, I am being a "better lawyer" that you ever will be.
The definition most seem to be using here is an act of invading a government building to interfere with the funciton ot the government.
Muddy definition. The OP's definition is different. Did you not read the OP?
Above, you didn't specify a definition, just argued NOT that both things fell under one definition but that they could not be distinguished, even if one was worse than the other....self-contradictory, as I said.
So now, you have decided to pick a definition. And, of course, declare that's the one you had been using all along. Except you picked a definition that, you admit, violates the 1A (As to which both events qualify. (So would a protest that attacks and shuts down a federal court in Portland Oregon.)). Which, as we both learned in law school, is a clue you may have the wrong definition.
You started with no definition, but still an objection. I called you on it, so now you've turned to a definition that is pretty clearly incorrect. Because you need something so absurdly overbroad to continue to make your equivalence argument.
This is just sad, dude. You are turning off your higher reason because you have an outcome you really really really want.
You really are pathetic. I nowhere admitted that the protest in Oregon that attacked and shut down the federal court there is protected by the First Amendment. It isn't, and if you think it is, you really are an ignoramus when it comes to the law.
Bottom line. Both Jan. 6 and the Oregon federal court events were insurrections, that potentially could disqualify someone from office. (Assuming the other requirements of Section 3 are met, like a prior oath.)
State clearly if you agree or not. If not, you are a political hack, and I will mute you.
This you: So would a protest that attacks and shuts down a federal court in Portland Oregon.
One of those insurrection protests that isn't protected by the First Amendment, I suppose?
Bottom line. Both Jan. 6 and the Oregon federal court events were insurrections,
You have talked a lot, but not come anywhere near to laying out that reasoning, much less establishing that.
Bottom line: I disagree. I find Jan 06 an insurrection, and not Portland. Your insisting they are the same (but also differently bad) has thus far been largely ipse dixit and unconvincing.
Sarcastr0, answer the question. Why is one insurrection, and the other not? Bored Lawyer was talking degree, not kind.
Mostly the violence. And the intent. And, the other crimes.
BL said: "One is worse than the other" you should ask him how he made that determination as well. Because that is him saying one is worse the other.
Of course they are distinguishable!
They took place at different times.
They were disrupting different government proceedings.
They had different consequences for the rioters.
They were rioting about different issues.
But both meet the criteria of 'insurrection' that is being used to harass the 1/6 rioters only - while the Kavanaugh rioters were released without charges and celebrated by media and some Congressfolk on the Left.
Look at those goalposts fly!
Interfering with a government proceeding is interfering with a government proceeding.
And yes, some of the Kanavaugh protesters did fight with police, force their way through doors, and go hunting for specific congressmen. In fact, the threat of violence was bad enough that the Capitol Police closed the entire complex one day out of fear. Many of the 'protesters' were arrested! And then released without charges, for some strange reason.
Merely interfering with a government proceeding isn't an insurrection. Where did you get that nonsense?
Here's the Cambridge definition:
an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence
That's quite a bit more than just interfering with a government proceeding. But it describes Jan 6 perfectly.
When it happened in a state capitol 10 years ago.
Can't tell a sit-in from an insurrection. People looking like fools, because that's what you need to do to defend your guy when he's trying to mess with our democratic transfer of power.
Sure. If it's Democrats doing it, it's a "sit in". If it's Republicans doing it, it's an "insurrection".
"Shortly afterwards, hundreds of protesters gathered outside the locked entrance to the Capitol, chanting "Break down the door!" and "General strike!" The crowds grew to thousands, surging into the Capitol."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_protests
That's because the Democrats say 'Let's do a sit-in' and then they go and do a sit-in. The Republicans say 'let's do an insurrection' and they go try to do an insurrection.
I don't see why we're any more obligated to call January 6th an insurrection than we are June 24th, for instance. If you've raised the bar for declaring an insurrection high enough that the various attacks on government buildings during the Trump administration don't clear it, neither does January 6th.
What's sauce for the goose... Shouldn't have made excuses for political violence when it was your side perpetrating it.
Okay. An insurrection as I understand it is a violent uprising against the lawful government. I also think it implies some effort to permanently alter or overthrow that government. So — the autonomous enclaves that folks set up during the BLM protests and riots, to me, were “insurrections.” They were radicals trying to shut out the government from certain areas and do their own thing in those places so, yeah, that’s an insurrection. I don’t think it cheapens the word to use it like that.
At the same time, the Jan 6 attack was also an insurrection, with the added dimension that had the Jan 6 insurrectionists achieved their aims their actions would have had a national reach. Fair?
I also don’t think it’s persuasive to say “I’d condemn political violence on the right if those on the left were intellectually honest and would do the same but they’re hypocrites so I can’t.” But maybe you aren’t saying that. And FWIW I do think liberals and the media were far too slow, denialist and tepid about condemning widespread violence accompanying BLM.
The autonomous enclaves were dumb, and apparently lead to some deaths. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those chuckleheads and kinda wish more happened to them. But their insurrection was extremely local, and clearly not destined to last long.
But if the J6 insurrectionists had thrown over the vote count...who knows where we would be.
There was violence accompanying the Floyd protests, but the right insists on saying the protests themselves were the same as the subsequent riots. And those riots were *quite* well covered.
They were never gonna overthrow the vote count. How would that even be possible? If they took over the entire building there’d have been no vote. If they had massacred 80% of the voters there’d have been no vote.
How would a vote favoring Trump have occurred as a result of this “insurrection”?
The point was to intimidate Congressman on pain of death to overthrow the vote count.
I don’t care what the plan was.
Give me a plausible series of events that would have resulted in Trump being elected as a result of the riot.
They kill someone. The chaos lasts only a day or so, but gives Trump time to:
pressure Pence into not certifying the Count, or
fire up his folks to support to alternate slates of electors, or
get the DoJ to release a statement calling the election into question, or
get some governors to bow to his will and find the votes he needs in that state. Enough to set a precedent.
Chaos didn't go his way this time, but it absolutely could have.
“Everyone changes their mind”. Seriously?
Trump had already pressured Pence and he wasn’t changing. To this day he hasn’t changed his mind. To the other people voting if it changed anybody’s mind it moved them against Trump. If they’d actually injured someone it would have just hardened resolve anti trump.
You can’t just say everyone would have done the opposite of what they actually did and claim it’s plausible. Of course you being you, you will anyway.
There’s just no way this insurrection had anywhere to go.
After breaking into the capitol building the Proud Boys et al capture Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi. They execute them and several other senior congressional leaders and pressure surviving senators to declare Trump the rightful President. Order is eventually restored in the capitol but the government is thrown into upheaval. The coerced proclamation of Trump’s win has no validity, of course, but Biden’s win can’t be certified that day either. Trump immediately announces that given the unprecedented dual crises of the deaths of serval senior members of congress and the VP combined with a fraudulent election he will “temporarily” remain in office past the normal end of his term while the situation is sorted out. He further announces martial law to crack down on “Antifa,” who he insists instigated the capitol attack to discredit him. House republicans cheer the moves, while senate republicans are split but offer mostly muted criticism. Without McConnell’s leadership there’s no stomach in the Republican caucus for a quick certification of Biden’s win. Support builds for Hawley’s proposal for a procedural delay so that a “debate over election integrity” can occur. This “debate” buys Trump exactly what he needs - time. He coordinates with Republican legislators in several states Biden won and convinces them to issue proclamations “rescinding” Biden’s electoral votes and submitting their own slates of Trump electors. When the senate finally does reconvene to count the votes the stage is set for a disputed result with competing slates of electors - which Trump wins thanks to his stronger positioning as the incumbent. Riots break out in some parts of the country over Trump’s theft of the election - which are quickly suppressed by the military units Trump mobilized for his ‘anti-Antifa” crackdown.
No doubt you’ll call this a ridiculous scenario. It isn’t. It just didn’t happen. Because we were lucky.
You are as stupid as you are bigoted and obsolete. That is why your betters have defeated people like you in the culture war
You forgot the aliens, O Below Average One.
Your hysterical fantasy is no different than the crazy folks that declared Obama was going to have Trump killed, or the ones that thought impeaching Trump would make Hillary President.
Are you crazy? There was no chance AT ALL that riot was going to end with Trump President. NONE.
Sure, suppose they'd captured enough members of Congress to force a sham vote declaring Trump President. You think anybody in the rest of the government would have treated a coerced vote as legitimate? Or that Trump could have politically survived attempting to stay in office on the basis of it?
Even the little riot you saw was enough to force Trump to abandon his challenges. Predictably so! A more "successful" one would have literally put his life at risk if he hadn't repudiated it!
Sure, dictators sometimes use coerced votes as a basis for claiming legitimacy. But never as the only basis, they're already in substantial actual control, and just looking for a rubber stamp on the reality. Trump was presiding over an executive branch that was inches away from open rebellion on a good day, they would have fallen on their knees in thanks for an excuse to throw him up against the nearest wall and shoot him.
Trump's plan wasn't to bust into the Capitol and physically threaten Congress. It was to over-awe them with a huge and enthusiastic crowd on the OUTSIDE, to strengthen the nerve of his supporters in Congress, and put the fear of the electorate in the hearts of anybody inclined to go against him.
Breaking into the Capitol not only wasn't on his to-do list, if the idea had occurred to him, it would have been on his "make sure this can't happen!" list.
How the heck do you know that? He piled up the gasoline then threw the match and stood back to let it happen. He may even have thought it would spark a country-wide uprising to put him back in power. At best, he didn't care what specifically happened so long as the election results were either overturned or continually undermined and Biden's authority eroded. But calling him and his followers a threat to democracy is the real fascism.
Once it popped off? No, it didn't go as planned. But this shit was in power points, Brett. The halting of the count via supporters was something Trump's folks talked about and wanted.
What do you think Jan 06 was about, Brett? Trump's people worked on logistics with some of the organizers, and it wasn't for a big ole protest!
Even the little riot you saw was enough to force Trump to abandon his challenges.
He is still continuing his challenges now, Brett!
The specific details of the violence were not contemplated, but the general thrust absolutely was.
What I think it was about, Sarcastro, is exactly what I said I thought it was about: A big political rally OUTSIDE the capitol, to apply political pressure.
Not the riot that started while he was still talking, and broke into the capitol.
That riot was certainly premeditated, there's extensive evidence that it was planned on the part of at least some people, but there's diddly squat in the way of evidence that it was planned by Trump. It actually derailed his plans, and predictably so!
A big political rally OUTSIDE the capitol, to apply political pressure.
Yeah, that seems Trump's style. Dude is all about political pressure via protest!
I can only presume that's why he said it would be wild. And tried to prevent them from being screened for weapons.
"We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," is strongly protest-indicating quote.
And boy did Giulliani screw up when he talked about single combat!
Sad such a peaceful protest supporter as Trump wanted to go to the Capitol to calm things down.
At some point these things need to add up.
Don't bother, Brett. Sarcy won't admit that the FBI already investigated and reported that there was no plan to kidnap, murder, or threaten anyone at the Capitol, so all of his claims are already debunked by an agency that is already going way beyond the questionable to get back at Trump and the 1/6 rioters.
Yes, it was. Although I do think the primary idea was not to threaten them to directly vote for him, but to threaten them to stop the process so that he could pressure swing state legislatures (or governors) to throw out their state elections, declare him the winner, and adopt the forged electoral votes from those states.
Competence is not a necessary component of insurrection.
Clearly in this case it wasn’t.
That’s not my point. My point is that everyone on the left is like “oh we were so close” or “he almost killed our democracy” but we weren’t and we didn’t. There was no possible outcome here that was going to result in Trump having a second term. No path to it.
It was embarrassing, it was stupid, it was pointless. People should be punished. But the so-called guardrails of our democracy held up quite well. All these projects and bullshit Biden speeches are noise about something that isn’t really there.
Everyone on the left is poimting at him and his followers and telling you they WANT to kill our democracy and you're just shrugging off their most high-profile attempt so far. How many Jan 6th supporters are running for positions that give them a say in how elections are run or decided or questioned? How much more realistic is THAT as a plan to overhtow democracy?
"they want too kill our democracy"
is pure demagoguery aimed a salvaging the Nov 22 election.
It's just stating the obvious. People who lie about the election result and make it the fundamental litmus test of their elected representives while their leader demands over and over again to be reinstated as president are no longer interested in preserving democracy.
Says you, Nige
But you don't get to defined our political system
Says I.
Which and $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks
Ok.
Look, when somebody points out that, if something was an "insurrection", it had no chance at all, and in fact was obviously counterproductive, you can't just say, "Well, they were incompetent."
That's like somebody dumping sand on a fire, you can't just defend the claim they were arsonists by claiming they were incompetent arsonists. You first have to establish that somebody not wearing a straight jacket would have thought it would work.
I'm open to the possibility that there was some tiny core group who had insurrectionary motives. And the outside possibility that it wasn't another case of the FBI egging things on so that they could publicly save the day, and then screwing up the save. I mean, there ARE nuts out there.
But nobody outside that tiny core was acting in a manner suggestive of insurrection.
Brett, check out the Jan 06 hearings. They lay out Trump's plans.
His intent was absolutely to ignore the intent of the voters and stay in office, by hook or by crook. It didn't work. That does not mean it was cool and good.
You are defending someone who wanted to end our democracy if he could. And the violence that was one of the results of that desire.
You consider yourself a good person, but look at what you're straining at the facts to ignore and condone!
Trump has more or less sworn allegiance with the Jan 6th rioters by promising them pardons. Jan 6th believers are running for office all over the country. We've just seen the behaviour of at least one Trump-appointed Judge. These people only love democracy when they control the outcome.
The January 6th hearings rigged to make sure everyone involved was hostile to Trump?
Sorry, Sarcastr0, you don't get to appeal to those hearings. That's the cost of not letting the Republicans be represented: Nobody has to care what the kangaroo court said.
Brett, don't argue facts with them. We are in Humpty-Dumpty territory now. They want it to be an "insurrection" and that is the end of the matter. Beliefs are more important that evidence. This is what modern education has given us.
'rigged'
By Republicans, if anyone.
Ad hominem about the hearings won't make the facts they lay out less true.
They have the recepits. You just don't wanna see them.
Why don't you want to engage with that case, Brett? Why are you so committed to ignoring what Trump is trying to do?!!
Sarcy, the 1/6 Star Chamber has already been caught altering and suppressing evidence multiple times. If you think it is rational to claim we should trust the evidence from the people already caught forging evidence, in the same presentations, you are a fucking moron.
Toranth, you're making up lies and calling other people the 'fucking moron?'
Your parents failed you.
Pelosi named GOP representatives Rodney Davis, Kelly Armstrong, and Troy Nehls to the committee. You think they were hostile to Trump? Are you unfamiliar with them?
We ought to wait until they come up with a better plan before concluding they're a threat to democracy, I guess.
"If the J6 insurrectionists had thrown over the vote count"
If pixies were real, then Narnia would exist...
But both of these ideas are utter fantasies with no basis in reality. A bunch of protesters were not going to "overthrow the vote count". It just would've been moved elsewhere.
Do you think Cesar Sayoc should have been acquitted because his attempt at multiple assassinations was so inept?
Sarcastro, you've fallen for the lie.
The protestors wanted an audit and the vote checked for shenanigans. Instead, nearly every politician has fought tooth and nail to prevent any sort of investigation. The results looked suspicious and instead of a transparent and open investigation, every avenue of checking has had barriers thrown in the way.
The protestors we're trying to ensure an insurrection didn't take place.
The protestors wanted an audit
Not protestors, calling for a lynching not an audit.
It's on tape, dude.
Not indulging you anti-reality assholes is not about hiding anything, it's about not appeasing assholes.
They wanted an audit. That’s why they were beating the shit out of cops and breaking shit.
Someone has fallen for the lie but it’s not who you think it is.
They got loads of audits. Some of them even increased Biden's margin slightly. Meanwhile it turns out Republcans have been engaging in voter fraud in Florida.
"The autonomous enclaves were dumb, and apparently lead to some deaths."
They weren't dumb. They were considerably worse than dumb. The people living in those 'enclaves' were terrorized, sometimes for weeks on end.
And they didn't "lead to" some deaths, that's far too indirect. They murdered some people.
Considerably worse than dumb.
You think the invasion of the Capitol ain't no thing, but some idiots with more Marxist Theory than sense try and cordon off a few blocks and suddenly you think the republic was threatened?!
That's what we call instrumental outrage.
No, the leaders of the CHOP or whatever didn't murder people, they just didn't let the police in. Directly murdering is a different thing, dude.
I don't know much about the so-called enclaves, but reports about murders and crimes - did they by any chance come from the police?
Bullshit. Words have meaning, and if 1/6 was an insurrection then charge and try people for sedition and not for trespassing and mischief.
Civil laws and criminal laws have *different* meanings. Oftentimes for the same word.
Sorry, the law is an ass.
Sure, being convicted for "illegally entering or remaining on restricted grounds" is clearly the same as an "insurrection".
I can't wait for AOC to be removed from Congress for her actions in "illegally entering or remaining on restricted grounds"
You really are a shitty Armchair Lawyer.
It's in the OP.
Whose rendition of the facts?
In this parallel universe, had we already learned the term "mostly peaceful protests"? Or would that be sprung on us afterward?
I take issue with only one part of the judge’s ruling and it’s a really big issue. I don’t buy Judge Mathew’s definition of insurrection which rested largely on the testimony of Professor Graber. According to the conclusions of law, insurrection is (1) assemblage of persons; (2) acting to prevent the execution of one or more federal law; (3) for a public purpose; and (4) through use of violence, force or intimidation by numbers. Insurrection does not need to rise to the level of trying to overthrow the government or secede from the union, resisting the governments authority to execute a single law sufficed.
Not only should this not be the standard, I don’t think it’s the correct standard. In Herndon v. Lowry, the Supreme Court addressed a conviction for incitement to insurrection under a georgia statute with a very similar definition of insurrection. The underlying case was crap, the defendants were communists doing leafleting. The court said no good. Then, in 1966, the district court had a case regarding Stokley Carmichael doing real rioting. The court upheld a vagueness challenge to the statute under the First Amendment.
The definition used by the court turns a lot of protestors unrelated to elections into insurrectionists, especially when pared with the broad definition of engagement (which is correct, lots of civil war cases on this in regard to trading with the enemy and blockades). Which would make a lot of public employees ineligible for employment (14th amendment applies to any office, civil or military of any state, not just executive, legislative or judicial officers). I would also note that you don’t need this crazy broad definition to find Griffin ineligible for office.
Indeed...it does. It's dangerous in its overbreadth.
Did you donate to BLM? If so, you may be guilty of aiding and abetting an insurrection, according to this definition.
Love it.
I see your point, though
1) force or intimidation by numbers was not required in this case, and
2) it won't survive and as applied challenge if they try and use it against large protests. Cept maybe for Alito.
Huh? This is a force or intimidation by numbers case.
My much bigger concern is the idea that any interference with execution of any federal laws can constitute “insurrection.” It might not have to be attempted overthrow of the government, but it needs some sort of hook like that to limit “insurrection” to an insurrection-like scope. But yes, the first amendment harmonizing issues are important as well (obviously section 3 is a constitutional provision, so it can’t be unconstitutional. But it does need to be harmonized to the extent feasible. I see no evidence that section 3 was supposed to curtail citizens first amendment rights).
The OP doesn't seem to mention numbers, what makes you think this is the case?
The courts opinion. Conclusion of law 26
The mob that arrived at the Capitol on January 6 was an assemblage of persons who engaged in violence, force and intimidation by numbers. The mob numbered at minimum in the thousands. Many came prepared for violence in full tactical gear. They used a variety of weapons, brutally attacked and injured more than 100 police officers, sought to intimidate the Vice President and Congress, and called for the murder of elected officials, including the Vice President.
That does not seem material to the conclusion they reached about Cuoy Griffin, specifically.
I know you’re engaging in good faith but you are confusing the hell out of me as to your position.
1. Judge Mathews lays out his conclusion as to the elements of what constitutes an “insurrection.”
2. Two of those elements are (a) assemblage of persons; (b) through use of violence, force or intimidation by numbers.
3. So how is the conclusion that this was an insurrection not material to the conclusion about Couy Griffin? There has to be an insurrection in existence for Griffin to have engaged in insurrection.
The element of intimidation by numbers was not needed to reach a conclusion as to whether intimidation through numbers alone was sufficient since there was violence, both generally in the events and specifically this guy.
At some point "failing to vote for a Democrat" constitute "insurrection."
If you really believed that, you'd leave this soon to be totalitarian country.
But you don't - you're just flexing your victimization bona fides.
Under that squishy of a standard, Jesse Jackson and his ilk would be insurrectionists.
But for them, it's merely #GoodTrouble.
"According to the conclusions of law, insurrection is (1) assemblage of persons; (2) acting to prevent the execution of one or more federal law; (3) for a public purpose; and (4) through use of violence, force or intimidation by numbers. Insurrection does not need to rise to the level of trying to overthrow the government or secede from the union, resisting the governments authority to execute a single law sufficed."
Not even clear to me that the Confederate secessionists would fit under that definition. Since they are the paradigmatic group that the section of the 14th Amendment was aimed at, that would be ironic.
Well, Section 3 provides disqualification for both insurrection and rebellion. So confederates would still fall under the rebellion definition probably. But i still think this is a bad definition of insurrection. A lot of the war time civil war cases referred to the civil war as an insurrection. Another thing completely ignored by the New Mexico court.
I don't know why you would have any trouble seeing that the Confederate secessionists were engaging in insurrection under this definition.
(1) “assemblage of persons” - The Confederate Army would qualify.
(2) “acting to prevent the execution of one or more federal laws” - It was a stated goal of the Confederacy to make every single Federal law inoperable within the boundaries of the Confederacy.
(3) “for a public purpose” - I believe that this just means having a shared goal, which in the case of the Confederacy would be preserving slavery over the long term.
(4) “through use of violence, force or intimidation by numbers” - Shooting at Federal soldiers, which the Confederate army did on a regular basis, qualifies as violence.
So wait. I know first it was Antifa who staged Jan 6 to make Trump look bad. Now you’re saying it was Antifa and the FBI staging the Jan 6 capital riots to make Trump look bad? Dear me.
At this point when they want to unwind do Trump fans just put on the movie Die Hard and run the scene where the FBI helicopter blows up and the teacher from Breakfast Club’s like “I guess we need some more FBI guys” on a loop?
I NEVER COTTONED THE GUY IN DIE HARD WAS THE TEACHER IN BREAKFAST CLUB! HAH!
He is also Clarence Beeks from Trading Places.
Geez, he's everywhere.
"Where is Beeks?"
An UNARMED "insurrection"? The right-wing is the pro-gun wing, but not a single demonstrator on 1/6 (so far as I know; correct me if I'm wrong) brought a gun to this knife fight (to quote a Democrat leader).
Look, I think the 1/6 demonstrators, like most demonstrators, were out of line, but did they fire canons at Ft Sumpter, did they march in arms against the Capitol, did they raise armies to overthrow the National Government? That's the kind of activity that this clause was intended to address. How many people who protested against US involvement in WWI were subjected to this provision?
If I were you (and I am!) I'd be a lot more worried about the threats to my liberty from the prosecutors and their allies than the defendants.
" Look, I think the 1/6 demonstrators, like most demonstrators, were out of line, "
And I think you might be an old, cranky, white, male, obsolete, Republican bigot who can't abide the thought of fellow right-wing assholes being held to account for their un-American, delusional, belligerently ignorant conduct.
Carry on, clinger. Until replacement.
Rev., I plead guilty to "old, cranky, white, male, and Republican". I deny the balance of your accusation and demand competent proof of same.
Judgment will be rendered at replacement. Your betters are content to wait. That is one of the benefits of being a winner in the culture war.
You get to continue to whine and whimper as much as you like, until replacement.
I am glad I never see the Rev's posts anymore.
I concur, though I am wholly-ignorant of the events of 01/06/2021, having, for my own sanity, sworn off MSM for the last 5 years.
In my opinion, an "insurrection" requires a sustained and organized effort, led by a sufficiently-hierarchical set of leaders usually with an explicit program of radical change, and provided with the means of possible success (be it weapons or otherwise). Anything less essentially constitutes but a mob.
A mob might rise to the level of an insurrection but it would require engaging in its efforts for a sufficiently-lengthy period of time. An effort of a day or two would not seem to rise to this level.
Surely you’re not going to try to bullshit us that a mob simply mysteriously appeared out of nowhere, random people just happened to be passing by at the time, there was no organization that had been planning a coup for months?
Really.
If you read the opinion, Mr. Griffin was an active organizer. He worked for weeks to encourage and organize people to come to Washington to fight to overturn the election. That’s no mob. That’s an organized insurrection.
Look, the Cosa Nostra said with a straight face there was no such thing as organized crime for decades, just individual criminals with no connection to each otjer. It’s not like we haven’t heard this bullshit before. If you’re going to bullshit, at least bullshit something original, something semi-semi-credible, not organized crime’s classic “there’s no organized crime” line.
Yeah, but if you think an election has been stolen, it isn’t insurrection to seek to overturn it.
It absolutely is when you decide to break the law and use violence to achieve your delusional goals.
What if it wasn’t delusional?
Insurrection still?
But it was? And the lie is being upheld and propagated by people running for positions that give them authority over elections.
Right. My point is that being wrong about something probably ought not be the difference between being a traitor, a seditionist, or an insurrections or not being one.
To me, these crimes imply intentional disloyalty.
What if it wasn’t delusional?
Insurrection still?
Then you're out of the realm of law, and into the realm of 'treason doth never prosper...'
I Googled it. I must admit I was not familiar with this particular quote, although it sounded familiar.
By the way, you can hold people accountable for breaking the law without charging them with insurrection. So… it isn’t insurrection or free pass.
So the armed guy that stormed a pizza parlor to save the children in the (non-existent) basement from Democrat cannibals didn't commit a crime because he truly believed in the cabal and lizard people?!
It matters less what you believe and more about what is actually real.
If the election was really stolen, we'd have seen the evidence produced in one of the very, very many court cases. To a conspiracy theorist, lack of evidence is, itself, evidence of a conspiracy.
And recall that the Trump lawyers explicitly said in court, more than once, that they were not alleging fraud.
By that BS logic so is BLM and everyone who supported them, their violent riots and their secession attempts.
You figure it was not organized?
You sound too stupid to live.
A (rather small) number of rioters did have guns, and some have been convicted for that.
But they didn't use them, or even unholster them, which shows how unlike an insurrection it was.
They didn't need to use them. Their violence breached the Capitol without guns because the law enforcement officers did not apply adequate violence to repel the insurrectionists.
Would the un-American assholes have used guns -- they brought plenty, and stashed them nearby with 'ready response teams' or something similar -- if needed to overcome the police? That seems difficult to determine.
Keep flailing, losers. Some of us enjoy watching ignorant bigots flail.
But remember, it was a "deadly" incident where many police officers died as a result. The Democrats are quite creative in interpreting the facts.
There are people on here calling the people involved 'tourists' and it ain't any Democrats.
This is a dangerous decision, that represents a bigger threat to our Democracy than any protest that occurred on January 6th.
An democratically elected official has been summarily removed from office for a non-violent misdemeanor conviction by a random judge. He was not convicted of insurrection. He was not charged with insurrection. To my knowledge, not a single person involved in the January 6th protest has been convicted with insurrection. But because the judge decided to use an extraordinarily broad definition of "insurrection"
Again, here is the definition.
" insurrection is (1) assemblage of persons; (2) acting to prevent the execution of one or more federal law; (3) for a public purpose; and (4) through use of violence, force or intimidation by numbers. Insurrection does not need to rise to the level of trying to overthrow the government or secede from the union, resisting the governments authority to execute a single law sufficed."
This of course includes the BLM protests.
Did you donate to BLM? Did you support BLM with tweets? Congrats, you're now guilty of supporting an insurrection, and can be summarily removed from federal or state or local office.
I do not approve of the insurrectionist label. However, what specific federal law were BLM activists trying to prevent from being executed? And do people need to specifically know which law they are interfering with?
Burning down a federal courthouse would have prevented the execution of a whole lot of laws.
No, you don't need a magic house to do judicial stuff.
You do need all you reps to be alive and free to do the electoral count, though!
Who is being partisan now. Under that definition, it was an insurrection, same as the events of Jan. 6th. That the government function may eventually go through some other means is neither here nor there. If you burn down a federal courthouse, you will be impeding the function of a branch of the federal govt. for some time.
I think Sarcastr0 is being a touch facetious here.
Execution of any federal law probably includes protecting federal property.
What laws are prevented from being executed when law enforcement personelle are not "permitted" to enter public spaces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest
Before Jan. 6, 2021, I believe that all but 1 of the people disqualified under Sec. 3. Were ex-confederates.
Here's the 1 - Victor Berger.
https://emke.uwm.edu/entry/victor-l-berger/
The House wouldn't let him serve after he'd been convicted of sedition, but let him serve after the Supreme Court overturned the conviction.
So unlike the ex-Confederates, Berger's status depended on whether he'd been convicted in a regular criminal trial.
And so it proves with this latest example, it seems.
Except that Berger was convicted of actual sedition, and this guy wasn't.
This is why I fault the Department of Justice for offering plea bargains and leniency to these un-American, worthless jerks. They should have been prosecuted relentlessly, convicted of the most severe offense the evidence would support and sentenced without mercy.
Problem being, Artie, they actually tried to convict this particular fellow of... wait for it... Disorderly. Conduct.
And they couldn't even pull that off.
So knock yourself out droning on about "leniency" and "should have been prosecuted relentlessly." You've bought in part and parcel to a dreadfully bad joke.
Do you feel this way about plea bargains in general or only plea bargains in this particular instance?
It depends on the circumstances. If someone has no remorse and will seek to avoid consequences of the conviction, or capitalize on avoiding a more severe conviction, the justifications for leniency fade.
Un-American conduct also is a relevant factor.
But the point of plea bargaining from a defendants perspective is to minimize negative consequences for themselves.
Remorse is often faked. Also, in cases where the crime is actually more understandable, remorse is likely to be lower. It is easier for people to be remorseful when the law and their own conscience align and they know they did wrong. But in cases where the law is more questionable, remorse may be lower.
Disclaimer: I am not really talking about J6 specifically at this point. I have just always thought that remorse was a factor that sometimes had weird consequences in sentencing.
The issue isn’t whether the in-American right-wing scum should seek plea bargains. The issue is whether better Americans should make plea bargains available.
Agreed on that. The demand for remorse is especially hard on anyone who thinks they were wrongfully convicted, since, from their perspective, they haven't actually done anything to be remorseful about.
So you think Colinford Mattis's plea bargain was too lenient?
Two years seems reasonable at first impression.
How many years seem right to you for the below-average insurrectionist?
The criminal conviction and subsequent overturning of that conviction presumably mattered in the case of Victor Berger because Congress relied on the criminal conviction to determine whether Victor Berger had engaged in insurrection.
In contrast, the judge in the Cuoy Griffin case examined the evidence to determine whether Griffin had engaged in insurrection. Griffin's criminal conviction didn't affect the outcome of the case because Griffin wasn't convicted of engaging in insurrection.
I see...OK, then, the court didn't defer to the Washington, D. C. court. Oops.
Yes, by contrast Berger had actually been convicted of insurrection in a criminal trial, while Griffin was just declared to be guilty of it by a judge despite never having been charged with it.
You can call it "examining the evidence", but what it WASN'T was an actual criminal trial. Griffin is still legally innocent of the crime the judge used as a basis for disqualifying him!
I've heard a number of variants of, “Better a hundred guilty men go free than that one innocent person should be convicted.” I've never heard anyone assert, “better a hundred ineligible candidates be allowed to run for office than one candidate should be erroneously disqualified.”
The idea that there should be different standards of proof for criminal and civil proceedings is older than the United States. You are free to argue that centuries of jurisprudence have all got this wrong, but sitting judges have to follow the law as it exists.
So this guy did about a quarter of what Ray Epp did, but not being in a protected class (federal agent?) he got charged, unlike Ray Epp.
Is there a link to the opinion? All I see are links to the Complaint.
Curious whether the judge made his own fact-finding, or relied exclusively on the misdemeanor conviction.
See linked. Did not rely on the conviction. Said the acquittal for disorderly conduct was irrelevant.
https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/D101CV202200473-griffin.pdf
If you are inclined to think the political persecution of the Capitol Hill tourists is funny, then by all means do so. Just do not pretend like it is not a blatant double standard and that people don't notice this fact. Also, don't be surprised when the next time leftist inspired looting or antifa try their crap they get their ass whooped and no one on the right cares. Why should they?
You call them tourists, and then pretend that anyone who doesn't agree with your pure-strain bullshit has a double standard.
No, you're just full of shit. There is a single standard, but it is being applied to reality.
That chicken you are screwing really must like it, eh?
Dude it's a complete double standard when applied to the BLM protestors. Really at least try and apply the "but they were protesting racism" excuse.
But absolute clownish.
Genuinely unsure what the double standard is supposed to be. Lots of people got arrested at BLM protests, lots of peopl egot charged, lots of people got batoned, shot with plastic bullets and tear gassed by police. If a Democrat official had been caught anywhere near the front lines battling with the cops, caught up or participating in one of the riots, or seen amongst or even near any looters the response would have been incandescent. Their life would not have been worth living.
It's more basic than that. How many BLM protestors ran for office? That's the only effect of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
The BLM *protestors* did not do an insurrection.
Quit pretending the ruling above covers both and then crying about it. It does not, you have nothing to cry about. Quit misapplying the law to get yourself the double standard you want so badly.
Sarc is right the protesters didn't do anything. It was the violent looters, rioters, and criminals that were the doers. Unfortunately that was the vast majority of people who were supposedly engaged in "mostly peaceful protests."
No one is buying this shit anymore, but the left keeps peddling it. You can't use and abuse the language like has been done for the last 4+ years without people taking notice.
The left does not stand for anything except the exercise of raw power to forward its agenda. Stop pretending.
'Also, don't be surprised when the next time leftist inspired looting or antifa try their crap they get their ass whooped and no one on the right cares'
The cops kill people with impunity every day, and the small-government right-wing conservatives who are suspicious of state power and cherish their guns as symbols of resistance to that power sided with the cops because most of the protestors had the temerity to be black. Nobody will be surprised.
It's about as funny as when Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the movie theater. He pulled a gun and tried to shoot an officer point blank in the gut. The officer was not shot because he had grabbed Oswald's gun and blocked the hammer from falling. Oswald then fought with that officer all the while yelling that this was "police brutality."
Okay.
I believe this logic fails for Jan 6 protestors who sincerely thought the election was stolen. GIVEN that belief, I would not think they had the intent to engage in either rebellion or insurrection. Instead, they would view themselves as challenging rebellion or insurrection.
On January 6, I felt as alarmed as anyone. The attack in the Capitol was disturbing. But it is important that we correctly understand the motives of those involved in this event rather than unnecessarily turning up the temperature.
Election conspiracies are interesting in that you have a phenomenon where people must rely on indirect proof to conclude that an election is legitimate. No human is capable of perceiving the outcome of an election; the counting of ballots is a group activity that ultimately relies on trust and a shared commitment to the rules by the participants in the group activity. Considering the totality of the circumstances, the correct conclusion is that the election was legitimate. But at the same time, the argument is difficult. There are a lot of claims of fraud or evidence of fraud out there that are difficult to verify (and we live in a society where people will manufacture false claims for their own purposes and disseminate that, sometimes in a viral fashion, through social media).
We had similar problems during COVID-19. Like elections, this is a non-simple phenomenon. And that left a lot of room for conspiracy theories to be spread on social media.
There are no perfect solutions to the serious problems of misinformation and disinformation. But, as a start, I think we could benefit by taking a more understanding approach of people who become confused. That a person thinks an election is stolen and wants to do something about it does not make them a traitor, a rebel, or an insurrectionist. We should not seek to try to overcome misinformation and disinformation by stigmatizing confused people.
I think our instinct towards stigma is partially understandable, because it can feel like you are talking to a wall sometimes when it comes to talking to confused people.
Delusional, violent, un-American dumbasses get a pass? That’s nuts. How does this blog attract so many silly commenters?
Feel free to be more specific regarding your criticism. No one said anything about a pass.
That's not how intent works. They intended the specific acts they were charged with.
Your standard would expand not guilty by reason of insanity massively.
I am not talking about other crimes. I am talking about treason, and insurrection, and sedition. For these specific crimes, I believe we need to inquire more deeply into the mind. Merely being mistaken about who is on the right side of a conflict isn’t enough to establish these crimes, which imply a lack of patriotism.
I think that maybe goes a little too far; Nobody questions that the Southern states' secession was the very "insurrection" that the 14th amendment was written to apply to. But as is well known, the Confederates didn't think they were engaged in insurrection.
They had already left the Union, and "insurrection", like treason, is a crime you can only commit against a government you are under. They did not understand anything they were doing to be "insurrection", because they weren't revolting against their own government.
So it can't be purely a state of mind thing.
treason, and insurrection, and sedition. For these specific crimes, I believe we need to inquire more deeply into the mind.
Nope. The Constitution says what you gotta do for treason, and doesn't mention that. The First Amendment has something to say about sedition.
Other than that, you've just made this up.
And the fundamental problem is that the judge disqualified Griffin on the basis of a crime he was never tried for, and never convicted of, and thus is legally innocent of.
The government simply does not get to impose the consequences of a criminal conviction, without first criminally convicting. But that's what happened here.
Section 3 has previously only been imposed under two circumstances: Confederates, after a civil war, and Berger, after a criminal conviction for insurrection.
This is neither, it's just a judge deciding that, yup, looks like insurrection to him.
It’s not a criminal proceeding or identified as a criminal penalty under Section 3. It’s a bar to public office for breaking your oath to defend the constitution, by engaging in insurrection or rebellion.
But the acts that invoke Section 3 ARE criminal acts. So it's my position that Section 3 can't be invoked without either a conviction, or something as clear cut as a civil war. Not just a judge saying "Yup, looks like it to me!" on the basis of some misdemeanor.
And I'm guessing that will be the decision on appeal, too.
But the acts that invoke Section 3 ARE criminal acts
Says who? No text I can tell. And not the court here.
You're actually claiming to be unaware that insurrection, rebellion, and treason, are all crimes?
They are crimes and also just plain words.
Civil laws, judicial proceedings, etc. that happen to use a word that is also a crime doesn't automatically incorporate the elements of that crime.
I know consistent edifices of the law and use of language appeals to you, but our system doesn't work like that.
The use of insurrection in this case does not require that the crime also called insurrection be found.
Got it?
If it was intended only to apply to those who have been convicted of those actions, then the Amendment would state as much.
It does not. It says "engaged in."
Whether one is charged with crimes by those names or not has absolutely no relevance.
And a judge awarded a lot of money to the family of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman on the basis of a crime he was never convicted of, and thus is legally innocent of. What's your point?
No, it isn't. The guy isn't being put in jail or even fined. Those are consequences of a criminal conviction. Disqualification is the consequence of participating in an insurrection.
So… you agree that conviction is not required. Thanks for playing!
You forgot the trial part an d the innocent until proven guilty part
HE had a trial. To disqualify him from office. He is not punished in any way, no fine, no jail, he can live his life as free as anyone except hold office.
Not a criminal trial. And also the trial is over.
Sarcastro:
Treason is defined in the Constitution, but you need more than that to understand it. Because levying war is dependent on the state of mind, isn't it?
You can't unintentionally levy war against something. For example, when someone engages in so-called "friendly fire" they aren't levying war.
But intent no longer matters, at least to progressives. Maybe they will do away with the intent requirement in criminal law.
The January 6 prosecutions will occur in DC, where the juries are heavily biased. They will be ready to convict before they are even seated on the juries. Of course, if a Democrat is tried for lying to the FBI, that Democrat will get a pass from the jury.
Dems would like to criminalize anything that Republicans do to hinder Dem actions. If they can get a few more seats in the Senate and hold onto the House, they can abolish the filibuster and pass any law they want. Add 3 or 5 or 7 progressives to the Supreme Court, admit DC as a state (or as 127 states), admit Puerto Rico as a state. Nationalize all state election procedures. We will be a one party state in just a few years.
You should submit this whole story you've written to fanfiction.net.
Righteousness of the cause, or subjective belief therein isn’t going to be a defense to insurrection or rebellion. That’s every insurrection and rebellion.
A county commissioner. Low hanging fruit indeed. Fruit hanging way too low for the 14th amendment to take notice of.
I'm sure none of us expect too much from local judges but I would expect a judge to put a little more thought into this.
The first red flag should have been when the complaint quoted Section 3 the 14th amendment with a very truncated segment:
"Because Defendant took an oath as an “officer of [a] State” to “support the Constitution of the United States”"
But that's not what section 3 says, it says "as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State".
There is absolutely no analysis in the opinion as to whether a county commissioner is a "member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State", nor any fact finding as to whether he took an oath previously in any of those roles.
County Commissioners in New Mexico are a local legislative office, the 14th is clear, they are not part of the state legislature, although I'm sure they would appreciate the promotion, they are not part of the judiciary, nor do they have any executive powers either locally or State.
When you read the complaint, they conflate taking an oath as county commissioner as taking an oath as one of the categories listed in the 14th.
"Defendant Took an Oath to Support the U.S. Constitution as a State Officer
73. As detailed above, state law required Defendant, as an elected County Commissioner, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States. See N.M. Const. art. 20, § 1; NMSA 1978, 10-1-13(B) (2012). Defendant took that oath on December 28, 2018."
Whether or not county commissioners can be considered "State officers", they are not listed in anyway, shape, form or broad overreaching category in the 14th under any possible construction.
Which of course is why neither the complaint or the decision did any analysis on the subject.
Did his lawyers raise these issues? Sounds like they might have merit, but our system works on the assumption that you raise them.
And I can see how someone like him might not want to make that argument. "Yeah I participated in an insurrection, but I am too small a fry to be disqualified" is not exactly a complimentary argument.
"not exactly a complimentary argument."
True enough, but we have an adversarial legal system, you make the arguments that you have to to win.
Which is why I asked if his lawyers raised them.
'our system works on the assumption that you raise them.'
Unless you're Trump...
Did he raise that as a defense?
Interesting opinion...I'm afraid I didn't read all of it, but it starts off by quoting a grand jury charge which - and I had to look this up - was by federal judge Peter Grosscup in the Debs case - the Pullman strike. In 1894, after this grant-jury charge, Debs was indicted for obstructing the U. S. mail. The charges were ultimately dropped (Debs was convicted of contempt, though, in a bench trial by another judge).
Historians tend to be sympathetic to Debs on this one, and unsympathetic to Grosscup - maybe these historians are biased, of course. but some discussion of the context may have been useful to show that these historians were wrong.
The injunction specifically prohibits the guy from "seeking or holding" the offices listed in Sec. 3. This includes "Senator or Representative in Congress."
What, then, becomes of the Constitutional provision that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members" (Art. I (5))?
The judge may well be right in finding the guy to be an insurrectionist, but it's these other details which are, to use the modern phrase, "problematic."
Well that's an easily disposed upon objection, the 14th amendment modified the constitution, and added the qualification of not an insurrectionist to existing the age limits.
Let's go further. Let's interpret the 14th Amendment to mean that anyone who engages in "insurrection" as defined by the Democrats and the media, are subject to imprisonment and/or summary execution without need for a trial and with no appeal. That will certainly protect our Democracy from the peril of a tyranny by the election of Republicans.
The objection is who decides, a state court or the relevant branch of Congress.
As I point out, this guy had a local position, COunty COmmissioner. So that provision of the Constitution is not relevant.
"Due to his disqualification under Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, Defendant is constitutionally ineligible and barred for life from serving as a “Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President,” or from “hold{ing] any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State,” including his current office an an Otero County Commissioner....
"6. Defendant is permanently enjoined and prohibited from seeking or holding any federal or state position specified above in Paragraph 2."
The first paragraph was marked 2
pp. 45-46
That begs the question. Yes, the 14th Amendment added a disqualificaiton to public office. But it nowhere mentions WHO determines whether the person is disqualified. So presumably you revert to the prior provision that provides that Congress is the judge of Qualifications.
Problem here, though, is this guy was not running for Congress. He had a local position, which he apparently wants to keep. So that prior provisions does not apply.
see above
Will the ruling survive an appeal if one is made?
Not if the appellate judges are Republican. If so, there is a 60% chance that they believe that Biden stole the election, so Jan. 6 was not an insurrection but rather people trying to prevent insurrection.
It won't survive if they just get a judge who thinks that it's relevant that Griffin was neither charged with nor convicted of "insurrection", and so is legally entitled to be treated as innocent of it. That doesn't require a Republican judge; A Democrat judge who isn't a total partisan tool could easily arrive at that conclusion, too.
Appellate judges are not randomly selected from people who respond to political polls. I bet they are much less likely to think Biden stole the election. At the bottom of the judicial barrel, like town justices in New York or clerk-magistrates in Massachusetts, there you find some less rational people.
"He's been a vocal proponent of various election conspiracies, ordered an "audit" of election returns in his county, and obstructed the certification of the primary election results in his county in 2022."
Substitute 2016 and you have half the Democrats in congress now.
No you don't.
So it's completely different than fabricating a dossier, colluding with the FBI, wasting millions on a faux Russian collusion conspiracy theory.
Dude you're a law professor?
Well, the Steele dossier and the Mueller Report have nothing to do with this whatsoever and he knows it, so yes, he's a law professor?
Protesting anything is free speech even if it's ridiculous. Like the Kenosha protests regarding Jacob Blake or the Michael Brown protests.
But rioting is against the law no matter the "cause".
This ruling is complete BS.
One thing this ruling assumes, correctly in my view, is that you don't need a criminal conviction to disqualify someone under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. That is not a criminal provision, it is a disqualification from public office. To my mind, that result is a civil matter. Still requiring due process (which happened here -- there was a hearing) but civil.
Suppose someone runs for Congress, and someone else asserts, he is only 23 and not qualified. You don't need a criminal conviciton to determine that.
But, while being 23 isn't a crime, both insurrection and rebellion, and giving aid and comfort to enemies of the US, are all crimes. So it's not unreasonable to apply a presumption of innocence in such cases, and require actual conviction.
And the Berger case stands as precedent: When his conviction was overturned, Congress treated Section 3 as no longer disqualifying him, even though it was overturned on a technicality. THEY thought a conviction necessary!
Not convinced. Sometimes the same act can have both civil and criminal consequences. Say a cop beats up a suspect. That can be criminal assault. It can also be grounds for discipline or termination. The two are different results, with different standards of proof, determined by different judicial bodies.
How many of the Confederate officers and office-holders were convicted of a crime? Not many. They were still disqualified.
Again, this was after a civil war, which absolutely nobody was disputing had occurred. Things that got done during and right after the Civil war would make absolutely horrific precedents for normal times.
I'm suggesting a basic rule here: You don't get to treat people like the losers in a civil war without holding a civil war and winning it first. You don't get to say, "Well, obviously that was an insurrection!" when half the country doesn't agree, and you haven't conquered that half by force of arms.
You are arbitrarily drawing a line and saying 'this is treating people like losers in a civil war, and thus illegitimate.'
You don't get to make up principles that draw subjective lines and then pretend that has anything to do with the what the law is.
This might be you jankiest reasoning yet - it's so blatantly instantiating your own subjective rule!
We are a land of laws, not Brett.
Just not laws about insurrection, though?
No, those laws too.
You insisting over and over that there is a double standard doesn’t make one.
It's hardly an arbitrary line, when literally the only occasion on which Section 3 was ever applied to anybody without a conviction for insurrection WAS for participation in the Civil war. You could hardly get less arbitrary, really.
The writ of quo warranto is a civil proceeding that determines whether an individual lawfully holds an office. Petitions for such a writ are often based on alleged election or qualification irregularities that, if sustained, in no way prevent the person from holding a future office or reflect badly on the person’s reputation. Disqualification is a civil remedy, not a criminal one.
Such a civil proceeding does not seem an ideal fit for a disqualification from holding any future office based on allegations of infamous conduct. Such a disqualification seems more in the nature of a criminal punishment than a civil remedy.
I realize that an impeachment trial in the Senate is, in practice, hardly a model of due process of law. The members of the tribunal are not exactly disinterested. If trial in the Senate is the benchmark, perhaps a civil court is just a good, maybe better. I nonetheless feel troubled about permanently disqualifying a person from office based on only a civil proceeding.
I nonetheless feel troubled about permanently disqualifying a person from office based on only a civil proceeding.
Agreed, notwithstanding that in this case the man deserved it ("Deserve ain't got nothing to do with it"). But presumably he can appeal.
"I nonetheless feel troubled about permanently disqualifying a person from office based on only a civil proceeding."
Why? Most thing are decided in civil proceedings. This is not a punishment, the man is still at liberty and pays no fine.
More interesting question is whether the standard of proof should be by a preponderance of the evidence, the usual civil standard, or by clear and convincing evidence, the standard used in some cases either when fundamental rights are at stake, or the claim is inherently suspect. I would lean to the latter.
It's absolutely amazing at times now many nasty things the government can do to you, that will just be dismissed as "This is not a punishment."
Just to clarify, the court went beyond kicking the cowboy guy out of his county office:
"Defendant is permanently enjoined and prohibited from seeking or holding any federal or state position specified above in Paragraph 2."
Paragraph 2, quoting Amendment 14(3), specifies "Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President” and "any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State."
I think there's only a minimal risk of the voters wanting him in Congress, but under this order he not only can't run for Congress, he can't sit in the House or Senate if elected, even if the House or Senate rules him qualified.
This is a small but probably correct point. Back to harmonizing constitutional provisions, each house of Congress is the sole decisionmaker as to the the qualifications of sitting. I think you’re correct that the prohibition on seeking or holding a Senator or representative position is beyond the jurisdiction of the court.
Doesn't the 14th Amendment bind Congress in this respect?
Sure, but that doesn't mean a state trial court can overrule, say, the House, if it rules that this fellow was duly elected and qualified. The House may rule that the guy is *not* an insurrectionist, that the trial court was wrong.
Then it's a question of which decision is authoritative.
If the House chooses to seat someone whom others deem unqualified, where is the remedy? In state court?
You're not harmonizing; you're reading in extra words in order to rendering that portion of the 14th amendment superfluous. The 14th amendment does not say, "Congress shall have the power to exclude people who engaged in insurrection." It simply says they're ineligible. (Moreover, it does not set off Congress separately from the other offices; all are governed by the same ineligibility rule. You'd have to completely rewrite it to get to where you are.) More importantly, Congress doesn't need the 14th amendment to kick out a member who engaged in insurrection.¹ They didn't need to include that unless they wanted to make it automatic, not the result of Congressional action.
¹Under Powell, it couldn't refuse to seat such a person, but even if Powell is correct, and even if there's a meaningful distinction between refusing to seat him and kicking him out 1 millisecond after seating him, Powell wasn't decided until 100 years after the 14th amendment, so they weren't trying to circumvent the case when they ratified it.
My only point is that a state court judge can't stop someone from sitting in, say, the House, the House would have to make the call as to whether they're qualified.
Say there's a dispute over whether someone meets the constitutional age requirement. The House says he meets the requirement, the state court says he's below the age - who prevails?
Likewise with Section 3.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting a scenario in which Griffin gets elected despite this court order, and the House decides to seat him?
I suppose I agree that if this happened, it's not like this particular judge could somehow enjoin Congress from doing so. (Of course, Congress has the express power under the 14th amendment to remove this ineligibility anyway.) But surely a state court could prevent Griffin from appearing on a ballot in the first place, based on this order.
Very likely could keep him off the ballot. Plus I'm not exactly sure the voters would *want* to elect him.
So this part of the order, forbidding him to be in Congress, seems superfluous.
Calling this an "insurrection" is immediately discrediting. It should not be taken seriously and is far from a legal argument, it is purely political at best and more accurately, lawfare.
Ah, the good old 14th amendment. The one that was never constitutionally ratified.
So the 14A doesn't require incorporating the Bill of Rights against the States
Doesn't create birthright citizenship
And isn't a real Amendment anyway
You know those people who think Prof. Somin has an issue wherein he's fixated on a few things, and sees them everywhere? Sure seems like you've got a thing about wishing our government was like it was in 1860.
You know, ugly history is still real history. It's actually true that the 14th amendment's adoption was really dubious, that's part of what I mean when I say that there are really ugly precedents from the Civil war that ought to never be applied in normal times.
Like having state legislatures literally ratify amendments at gun point.
To the contrary, I originally read the DQ in a vacuum the way most people would: that it applied to any insurrection or rebellion, which then raised the question, who decides what is an insurrection or rebellion? The upshot of the article (IIRC) was that Congress via the terms of two statutory amnesties, decided it was limited to the Civil War, and per Section 5, that was enough to answer the question, at least absent a new statute.
Well, it wasn't breaking and entering, because he didn't break, and he didn't enter. That's doesn't leave a lot of breaking and entering left, you know.
Oh dear, it delayed something. [So did the insurrection in Wisconsin.]
This is just like firing on Fort Sumter!
Quit whining, clinger.
He was trying to overthrow the results of the election. He had no proof of fraud or malfeasance related to the election, he just didn't like the result. He could have just engaged in peaceful demonstration, instead he took part in an attack that was supposed to prevent certification, in the apparent belief that this would either suffice or be the start of a larger uprising.
Easy on the projection, your Highness.
So you're saying that the Civil War wasn't really an insurrection because the Confederates didn't attack the US Capitol.
Well, it's not really any dumber than anything else you post....
No, something here was a ceremonial rubber stamping of some numbers. In contrast, January 20th rioting would have the potential to delay the peaceful transfer of power.
But hey, it's no stupider than anything else you post.
But again, he didn't break, either.
Weird phone call Trump made to Pence then. And weird advice that crappy lawyer gave to Pence as well.
All in all, the Trump folks seemed at the time to think it was a lot more than the ceremonial rubber stamping you are now claiming.
A ⇒ B ⊬ ¬A ⇒ ¬B
This is pretty basic stuff.
Saying that X is sufficient for something to be an insurrection is a QA-level vapid response to an argument that Y also indicates an insurrection, unless the implied argument is that X is necessary for an insurrection. And that implicit argument would be wrong for the reason I said.
This is pretty basic stuff.
Your offensive swipe at Lady and the Tramp and 101 Dalmations is duly noted!
X is sufficient. Y may or may not be.
Now you're at war with elementary logic. This is where defending Trump takes you.
If people are talking about whether Y is sufficient, again, the only reason to bring up X is if either Y implies X or if X is necessary. In this case, "courthouse" does not imply "a fancy government building engaged in the transfer of federal executive power", leaving the alternative that QA was suggesting that attacking "a fancy government building engaged in the transfer of federal executive power" is required for something to be an insurrection.
I'm sorry that basic logic is beyond your grasp. That's probably why you have such bad TDS.
Are you switching X and Y on purpose?
You're the one bringing in the second conditional, chief.
I'm not switching X and Y. X has been QA's "fancy government building engaged in the transfer of federal executive power" as a distinction from Bob's "fancy government office building" (Y).
In this case, Y does not imply X, so I infer that QA thinks X is required for an attack on the building to be an insurrection. Or QA was throwing out a red herring.
Oh it's fun watching you dig deeper on this Pichael.
If the discussion is about how come Y is sufficient for some set of cases but not others, pointing out that X is both sufficient and a relevant subset of Y is a pretty astute answer.
Great comment, bruh. I pray you do not get the monkey. Be careful going out there, bruh.
There were attempts to burn down the Mark O. Hatfield Courthouse in Portland.
Of course, some people were more offended that the vans used to transport suspected rioters were unmarked...