The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
First Amendment Protects Catholic Archidocese's Pressuring Catholic School to Fire Same-Sex-Married Teacher
From a two-Justice opinion in the Indiana Supreme Court case Payne-Elliott v. Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Indianapolis, Inc., written by Justice Geoffrey Slaughter and joined by Justice Mark Massa. Justices Christopher Goff and Derek Molter concurred in the judgment (without a separate opinion), and Chief Justice Loretta Rush didn't participate, so Justice Slaughter's opinion is not a majority, but it's likely to prove influential:
Joshua Payne-Elliott sued the Roman Catholic Archdiocese … for intentional interference with his contract and employment with Cathedral High School, a Catholic school in Indianapolis….
More specifically, he alleges as follows. Cathedral, founded in 1918, was initially owned by the archdiocese, which later turned over care of Cathedral to the Brothers of Holy Cross. Cathedral was incorporated in 1972 "for the sole purpose of maintaining and operating a Roman Catholic secondary school." In substance, Cathedral's bylaws state as follows: "the essential Holy Cross character of Cathedral as a Catholic high school shall be at all times maintained and [ ] a mission priority is to be an educator in the faith." The archdiocese exercises "significant control" over Cathedral, including "its recognition of Cathedral as a Catholic school."
From 2006 until June 2019, Cathedral employed Payne-Elliott as a world-language and social-studies teacher under a contract that was renewed annually. Payne-Elliott, "a homosexual male," married his same-sex spouse in 2017; his spouse teaches at Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School, also in Indianapolis. Cathedral continued renewing Payne-Elliott's teacher contract through May 2019 for the 2019–2020 school year. The archdiocese knew about Payne-Elliott's contract with Cathedral.
In June 2019, Brebeuf announced that despite pressure from the archdiocese, it would not fire Payne-Elliott's spouse. Brebeuf explained it declined the archdiocese's directive that Brebeuf dismiss the spouse "due to the teacher being a spouse within a civilly-recognized same-sex marriage." The next day, Archbishop Charles C. Thompson issued a decree stating that, after extensive dialogue between the archdiocese and Brebeuf, the archdiocese no longer recognizes Brebeuf as a Catholic institution. The decree states that, in accord with Canon 803 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Brebeuf, "by its own selection, can no longer use the name Catholic and will no longer be identified or recognized as a Catholic institution by the Archdiocese of Indianapolis nor included in the listing of The Official Catholic Directory." The decree explains that the archbishop accepted and respected a school's right and responsibility to make decisions, but that it is his "canonical responsibility to oversee faith and morals as related to Catholic identity within the Archdiocese of Indianapolis" and that Brebeuf "ha[d] chosen not to implement changes in accord with the doctrine and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church[.]"
The complaint alleges further that the archdiocese gave Cathedral the same directive it gave Brebeuf. Cathedral chose differently. On June 23, 2019, Cathedral's president informed Payne-Elliott that, according to this directive, Cathedral was terminating his employment. The president stated that the sole reason for his firing was that "the Archbishop directed that we [Cathedral] can't have someone with a public same-sex marriage here and remain Catholic."
Cathedral then posted a letter addressed to the "Cathedral Family" on its website. The letter stated, in part, that "after 22 months of earnest discussion and extensive dialogue" between Cathedral and the archdiocese, "Archbishop Thompson made it clear that Cathedral's continued employment of a teacher in a public, same-sex marriage would result in our forfeiting our Catholic identity due to our employment of an individual living in contradiction to Catholic teaching on marriage."
It continued: "Cathedral has been a Catholic school for the past 100 years and our Catholic faith is at the core of who we are and what we teach at Cathedral. We are committed to educating our students in the tenets of the Catholic faith[.]" It stated further that "to remain a Catholic Holy Cross School, Cathedral must follow the direct guidance given to us by Archbishop Thompson and separate from the teacher." During oral argument, Payne-Elliott's counsel told us that his client "threatened" to sue Cathedral for breach of contract, and Cathedral settled….
[U]nder the church-autonomy doctrine a civil court may not (1) penalize via tort law (2) a communication or coordination among church officials or members (3) on a matter of internal church policy or administration that (4) does not culminate in a criminal act. Here, based on the complaint's allegations, the church-autonomy doctrine bars the case. First, the complaint alleges tort claims, i.e., intentional interference with contract and employment.
Second, the complaint rests on communications between church officials and members, here the archbishop and Cathedral. It alleges that the archdiocese "directed" Cathedral to fire Payne-Elliott in accordance with the archbishop's "directive"; that the archbishop "directed" Cathedral that it could not have Payne-Elliott on staff and remain Catholic; that the archbishop "made it clear" that if Cathedral were to continue to employ Payne-Elliott, it would forfeit its status as a Catholic school; and that Cathedral must "follow the direct guidance given to us by [the] Archbishop."
Third, the archdiocese's decision whether a school maintains its Catholic identity is an internal matter that concerns both church policy and administration. The gist of Payne-Elliott's claims is communication between the archbishop and Cathedral, a Catholic school, over a matter involving church discipline and doctrine: whether and when the archdiocese would continue to recognize Cathedral as Catholic is at the heart of the communication (i.e., the "directive" to Cathedral). The complaint and attachments show the directive was, like the one to Brebeuf, a choice the archdiocese gave Cathedral. It could either retain its recognition as a Catholic school by following the archdiocese's instruction on what was required to be recognized as a Catholic school or forfeit continued recognition. This choice reflects the archdiocese's authority to declare which schools are Catholic, consistent with Dwenger.
Fourth, the complaint does not allege the archdiocese's tortious conduct ended in a criminal act. {[C]riminal conduct is not protected by the church-autonomy doctrine—even if carried out using communications about church doctrine or policy. [The court cited for this proposition a precedent that noted that "the Free Exercise Clause would [not] prevent prosecution for an agreement with another person to commit a felony, even if that other person is another church member or official and the agreement implicates ecclesiastical issues, if the state also proves an overt act in furtherance of that agreement in accordance with Indiana's conspiracy statute. For example, a defendant charged with conspiracy to commit murder via terroristic attacks could not insulate himself from liability merely by claiming that the agreement element of the crime occurred within a protected discussion of church doctrine or policy. -EV]} Thus, Payne-Elliott's complaint establishes the church-autonomy defense and requires dismissal ….
Congratulations to John S. (Jay) Mercer and Paul J. Carroll of Wooton Hoy, LLC, and Luke W. Goodrich, Daniel H. Blomberg, and Joseph C. Davis of The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Some reading this might wonder why the Jesuit school was the one who did not do what the archdiocese wished while the one run by the Brothers of the Holy Cross did. Nearly all orders-- likely including the Brother's of the Holy Cross-- serve the parish, and so archdiocese. They are ordained under what might be called the "hierarchy". The Jesuits are an exception. They do not report to any parish or archdiocese.
Ref
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/understand-pope-francis-look-jesuits
So the Brother's of the Holy Cross and discuss their POV on complying with the dioscese for a while, but ultimately, according to RC church rules, the ultimate choice is not theirs.
In contrast, the ultimate choice for the hiring would fall to the Jesuits, unless they got a Papal order.
On the other hand, the archdiocese can decide who or what gets to claim to be Catholic. But taking away that designation from the school is pretty much the only thing they can do. They can't actually order the Jesuits to do much of anything.
What do you call a Priest who isn't Catholic?
A Jesuit
Worth noting that the current pope is Jesuit. The first of his order to ever become Pope.
Is the Pope Catholic?
Close enough, he's a Jesuit.
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of Those Striving To Keep The World Safe For Old-Timey Bigots
Any comment on that ostensible civility standard you use to justify censoring liberals, Prof. Volokh?
I thought not.
Mr. Nieporent forgives you.
#ConservativeCowardice
You're free to call people "bigots" to your heart's content. But, as long they are not government officials, they ought to be free to "discriminate" to their heart's content (for any reason whatsoever). If you deny them that right, you're worse than a bigot, in my opinion. (And sure as hell not a "liberal.")
Bigots have rights, too.
It is interesting that the bigots, through conservatism and the Republican Party, are seeking expansive special privilege to prevent others from discriminating against them, while the propose to be permitted to discriminate against everyone else.
Has this blog mentioned the armed conservatives at library board meetings, demanding that hundreds of books (often related to gays) not be offered at school libraries . . . that do not offer those books?
Has this blog mentioned the Nebraska conservatives who shut down a school newspaper that published content recognizing that gays exist and are people?
At this white, male, bigot-friendly, movement conservative blog, the feel-good story that the proprietor finds interesting is the one in which the conservative bigots were challenged . . . and prevailed!
Carry on, clingers. So far as lamely nipping at mainstream ankles could carry anyone in modern America . . .
Ed,
I'm not even sure that the Rev disagreed with the legal right to be a bigot and prejudiced and to engage is odious discrimination. Surely, those are all legal behaviors under current jurisprudence. And you did note that the Rev has a right to call them out for their dreadful actions.
But I'd go further. Don't you and I (and Eugene? and other posters??) have a moral duty to state publicly how awful we think this sort of discrimination is? [Assuming that we do, in fact, think it's bad behavior...of course homophobes and other sub-segments of conservatism will see this discrimination as an affirmatively good thing.] As I get older; I find myself often musing, "When I publicly applaud good lawyering, do I have any responsibility to also bemoan the morally bad result?" We all agree that there's no legal responsibility to do this, of course. But a moral or societal responsibility? I'm gradually moving to that position, I admit.
I repeatedly state that
(1) bigots have rights, too,
and
(2) Prof. Volokh is entitled to impose hypocritical, viewpoint-controlled censorship at this blog.
But bigotry is not improved, or transformed into anything other than bigotry, by a cloak of superstition or a politics. So superstitious gay-bashers are downscale, obsolete bigots and race-targeting vote suppressors are Republican, conservative bigots.
Similarly, Prof. Volokh is entitled to censor liberals at this blog, and to claim that censorship derives from civility standards (which ostensible standards plainly are not applied to conservative commenters), but I am similarly free (unless I am banned for making fun of or criticizing conservatives) to observe that the censorship the Volokh Conspiracy has been imposing for more than a decade is repeated, hypocritical, selective, blatantly partisan, and devastating to this white, male, right-wing blog's efforts to ride a high horse as a champion of free expression. This blog's devotion to free speech flutters with the political winds -- conservative preferences in particular.
Congratulations to John S. (Jay) Mercer and Paul J. Carroll of Wooton Hoy, LLC, and Luke W. Goodrich, Daniel H. Blomberg, and Joseph C. Davis of The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty.
For what? Helping the Archdiocese perpetrate an injustice?
I wonder how vigilant they are in examining the conduct of other teachers, priests, and staff at the school.
I don't think Eugene cares very much about "justice."
Because "justice" means using the coercive power of the state to compel Catholic institutions to stop being Catholic. Once you let Catholic dioceses insist that teachers in their schools not publicly flout Catholic teaching on chastity and marriage, it's just a short step to letting them burn Protestants at school assemblies. There's really no way to draw the line except to nip the whole thing in the bud.
it's just a short step to letting them burn Protestants at school assemblies. There's really no way to draw the line except to nip the whole thing in the bud.
Are you really a clown, or do you just play one one TV? Or is this supposed to be sarcasm?
Because "justice" means using the coercive power of the state to compel Catholic institutions to stop being Catholic.
No. "Justice" might look more like the state preventing the Church from engaging in tortious activity.
The teacher in question taught secular subjects, and it's nowhere alleged here that he was Catholic or in any way attempted to instruct his students on matters relating to Catholic teaching on same-sex marriage. The school was apparently happy with his performance and contracted him to continue teaching. It was the Church that decided that their anti-gay teaching required his termination.
Our law might well give them that constitutionally-protected right. It doesn't mean that it is "just" to allow them to harm this teacher in this way.
The fact that the teacher taught secular subjects does not mean he was engaged in a purely secular enterprise. The Catholic understanding of Christian education was explained by Pope Pius XI:
"For the mere fact that a school gives some religious instruction (often extremely stinted), does not bring it into accord with the rights of the Church and of the Christian family, or make it a fit place for Catholic students. To be this, it is necessary that all the teaching and the whole organization of the school, and its teachers, syllabus and text-books in every branch, be regulated by the Christian spirit, under the direction and maternal supervision of the Church; so that Religion may be in very truth the foundation and crown of the youth's entire training; and this in every grade of school, not only the elementary, but the intermediate and the higher institutions of learning as well. To use the words of Leo XIII: 'It is necessary not only that religious instruction be given to the young at certain fixed times, but also that every other subject taught, be permeated with Christian piety. If this is wanting, if this sacred atmosphere does not pervade and warm the hearts of masters and scholars alike, little good can be expected from any kind of learning, and considerable harm will often be the consequence.'" (Divini Illius Magistri, no. 80.)
Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Especially over sacred ignorance, dogmatic intolerance, and superstitious nonsense. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so.
Choose reason. Recognize that competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition-based arguments or assertions in reason debate among adults.
Choose reason. Be an adult (rather than a gullible consumer of nonsense).
Or, at least, please try to be an adult.
Thank you.
The fact that the teacher taught secular subjects does not mean he was engaged in a purely secular enterprise.
Look, the Pope could claim that janitors need to be exemplars of "Christian piety," also - doesn't make it so.
Besides which - tell me how threatening to revoke the "Catholic" accreditation of a school over an employment dispute involving a single, apparently well-liked teacher, exemplifies "Christian piety."
I get that, in our system, we legally have to treat blatant hypocrisy as irrelevant. But I'm not talking about some fact pattern on a Con Law exam. I'm talking about principles of justice that transcend what a fascist, corrupt pedo-organization might like to say about itself.
Religious schools discriminate in essentially every context. Hiring. Firing. Admission. Disciplinary action. Research. Promotion.
A nationally known and extremely successful (national champion) basketball coach once asked me (decades ago, when I was a sports writer, interviewing several basketball coaches each week), 'what is the number one qualification someone wanting to be a college basketball coach can have?'
That led to an interesting discussion. Skill at recruiting? Development of players (basketball skills, leadership, teamwork, eligibility)? Technical mastery of offense, defense, or both? A unique or unusual twist to offense or defense? Alumni relations and fundraising? In-game decisions and adjustments? Discipline?
Press relations and public speaking? Motivation?
Others began to follow the conservation. The coach controlled the conversation, for several reasons, but it was an insightful, enjoyable, and extended exchange.
It concluded when the coach indicated it was time to answer the question.
I can't recall what I offered as an answer, but I remember the coach's broad smile as he delivered the punchline:
'Go to mass. Be a Catholic.'
That led to an insightful discussion of why Catholic schools tend to fail at football but can compete at basketball -- and why so few Catholic coaches succeed in the NBA or at non-Catholic schools.
Since that conservation occurred, I have watched religious schools discriminate strenuously when hiring everyone from basketball coaches to landscapers, professors to secretaries, administrators to cafeteria workers, building contractors to caterers . . . and still complain that they don't get enough unearned privilege or a fair shake in our society.
"The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty"
Ha!
The conflict between Becket and Henry II arose out of priests who sexually abused laypersons. Becket wanted the priests tried in the ecclesiastical courts; Henry knew that they would just get a slap on the wrist there and wanted them tried in secular courts. Sound familiar? Even the Catholic Church would be on Henry's side today.
The Becket Fund - striving to make the country more hateful, bigoted and stupid for 28 years now.
Catholic priests have to be celibate. SOCOM operators hone their physical characteristics their entire lives, doctors sacrifice years of their lives on intensive courseloads. High magistrates of a vegan organization are expected to avoid meat.
If you want to be a Catholic teacher. Don't get a SSM. Its just part of the job role. As far as professions go its not a particularly onerous requirement or sacrifice if you buy into the whole Catholic doctrine thing. And if you don't why are you bothering to apply?
I really don't see what the big outrage is here except in the way of a reflexive SJW societal assumption.
" Catholic priests have to be celibate. "
If that is a joke, it is a poor one.
If it is not a joke, it's a comprehensively stupid statement.
Wait they're a private organization right? So what's the issue?
Freedom of association is dead, it's pining for the fjords, it is no longer a freedom.
Excuse me.
The guy taught there for 13 years.
Are you telling me they didn't know he was gay and, presumably, in a same-sex relationship?
What was it about the marriage that changed things?
And how many teachers have been fired for violating other Catholic precepts about sex, or maybe contraception?
Religious liberty is just as important as sexual liberty.
Religious liberty has its own text in the Constitution. Sexual liberty has to be implied.
I'm not claiming the decision is wrong.
It simply seems to me that firing the guy under these circumstances is unjust.
Life's not fair. The Church doesn't ban "gays" but treats all sex outside of traditional marriage (one man, one woman) as a sin.
He may have worked at the school for 13 years, but when did he "marry"?
Life's not fair.
No. But that doesn't excuse the church being unfair.
The Church doesn't ban "gays" but treats all sex outside of traditional marriage (one man, one woman) as a sin.
And of course no other teacher at the school has ever sinned in this fashion.
He may have worked at the school for 13 years, but when did he "marry"?
He didn't "marry." He married. Do you think it likely that he and hos spouse never had sex before the marriage? Do you ythink the archbishop thought that?
So let the Church have a policy that if they know of some bad thing going on but they haven't been doing anything about it, they must keep the bad thing going on indefinitely. Such a policy has worked wonders in the past, so why not now?
What 'bad' thing? Being gay might be a sin, but Catholc doctrine is that we're all sinners deserving of mercy, which is just as well because bloody everything is a sin.
Being gay is not a sin, any more than being tempted to gluttony is not a sin. It may be difficult for some to resist the temptation to be a glutton, have sex with other men, etc., but the temptation is not a sin.
bernard11,
You asked
I assume from the question you aren't familiar with Catholocism. I'm now an atheist, but I grew Catholic.
What the marriage changed is it is a public, open declaration to live in sin and to say you intend to persist.
Homosexual acts are considered sins by the church. But every one sins. But you can be forgiven if you are trying not to stop or trying to avoid it or whatever. But getting married is an open and public declaration that you are not.
As for birth control: A blind eye can be turned because people don't go to church wearing signs that said "I'm using birth control". So, while lots are clearly using birth control, it's not an "open public declaration".
Anyway, that's how getting married changed it for the church. YMMV, but that's how the church tends to see it.
GOD HATES FAGS!
Did I get that right?
No that's a typo. God hates figs. We know this because Jesus cursed the fig tree.
Except he cursed it because it didn't have any figs. It was the equivalent of a cheese shop uncontaminated by cheese.
the complaint does not allege the archdiocese's tortious conduct ended in a criminal act.Doesn't Title VII apply to the school and thus the firing might be illegal (noting that the plaintiff nonetheless likely loses because of the ministerial exception which this court did not address because it reached its decision based on church-autonomy doctrine)?
That's not a criminal violation.
Does the church-autonomy doctrine trump Title VII when the janitor is fired because he is gay?
No, you're thinking of the "ministerial exception." Janitors are moral exemplars, after all.
I am referring to the church-autonomy doctrine. It's clear the janitor is not a minister and hence the ministerial exception does not trump Title VII if he is fired because he is gay. But, it is not clear to me whether the church-autonomy doctrine nonetheless trumps Title VII as applied to the janitor because 1) that doctrine does not apply to criminal violations and 2) Title VII is civil law and hence no criminal violation occurred when the janitor was fired.
I was being flip. Janitors aren't "ministers", yet. I don't expect it to stay that way, under this Court.
In terms of the church-autonomy doctrine, it seems that if the diocese threatened to withdraw the "Catholic" label from the school, unless it fired a gay janitor, it would be on all fours with the case in the OP.
I'm not addressing Title VII. I'm just saying that's not a criminal violation.
Does the church-autonomy doctrine trump Title VII because Title VII is not a criminal violation, and thus allow the firing of a gay janitor?
Damn, you really hate that janitor!
Well, it certainly trumped Title VII when a janitor was fired for not being Mormon, Corporation of Presiding Bishop v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327 (1987), so I'm guessing yes.
Admittedly, the Court arrived at its decision on the basis of a provision of the Civil Rights Act that accommodated church autonomy rather than on the basis of the constitution.
Indeed. Title VII provided the exemption and it was limited to discrimination on the basis of religion. The decision says nothing about whether the Constitution requires an exemption for discrimination on the basis of sex.
At what point can one mention that the Archdiocese's "religious" position is a laughingstock to its own flock? Increasingly, the Catholics who to go Mass, who contribute, who in the end pay these bishops' salaries approve of gay marriage. In most cases, the teachers who have been fired were well loved and respected by students, parents, faculty and their own principals. I can't imagine the directive to fire them caused anything but resentment against the (closeted gay) bishops responsible.
captcrisis: One can mention it at any time. But as a legal matter, I don't see how it affects the analysis of the Church's First Amendment rights.
There's "the Church" (as understood by non-Catholics) and there's "the Church" (as understood by Catholics).
Do you take the same position vis a vis the "government" and the "governed"?
What the Church thinks about the Church has no impact on the legal rights of the Church.
I'm just pointing out the farce and laughingstock of the situation.
There are not many instances where the corporate hierarchy of an entity is taken so unseriously and is regarded with so little respect by the people who compose that entity.
Guess you don't count my government analogy as relevant.
One could imagine a slightly less deferential construction of the First Amendment, that takes religion more seriously as a system of genuine belief and practice, instead of just a "cause I say so" kind of regime used to protect bigotry and malfeasance.
But it is also true that, as a matter of law, that is not what we currently have. It will apparently take a couple of decades of lawless mischief unleashed by the current Court before we come to our senses, as a society, and courts begin to bring some rationality back to these cases. And it is equally evident that anyone curious about a scholarly proposal to more properly balance religious freedom against secular interests will have to look elsewhere.
the aspects of belief at question here preexisted and were formalized long before the country they are being disputed in existed. Its not just some random troll to piss of the libs like you are characterizing it as.
Yes it is.
The hierarchy can simply look the other way, like they have with so many other things. They do nothing about Catholics who use birth control. They do nothing about Catholics who cohabit. Until Obama came along, they didn't even care about providing contraceptive coverage for their own employees.
They've been worldly and corrupt for so long that consistency requires they continue with the worldliness and corruption.
What would you have them do? Burn them at the stake? That type of argument is the same as government prosecutorial discretion. Catholics believe in sin and in confession. While Kirkland will claim superstition sinners face punishment in the next life for those committed and not forgiven in this life whatever the hierarchy does or doesn't do.
If you're not perfect and can't enforce everything including practically nonenforceable aspects of your philosophy you should abandon everything. Wow what an insight. Maybe you leftwingers should keep this in mind when firing poor people for one time slip ups, uttering a slur etc. The people you like to can aren't even telling you they're planning on continuing the behavior.
I mean, that’s not true. They do in fact fire teachers who cohabit. (I’m not sure how the church would know about whether they use birth control.) And your Obamacare argument makes little sense, since that’s the first time the federal government invented a right to have someone else provide contraception.
I did not intend to make a legal point about the church's 1A rights.
Even if the decision is correct as a matter of law, the firing remains an injustice, and the lawyers who abet it are, IMO, not to be congratulated.
"Even if excluding the illegally--seized evidence from the defendant's trial is correct as a matter of law, the defendant is a rapist so the rapist's lawyers who abet this ruling are still in the wrong."
Margrave,
You are (respectfully) shifting the goalposts. NO ONE is saying that the lawyers in this case did anything wrong. No violations of the canons of legal ethics.
When I read Eugene's post, I admit to having a slight reaction to him offering congratulations. On one hand, I totally get it. It was an effecting job of advocating for your client, with a successful outcome. Why not offer congratulations?
But look at things from the other side as well. When a lawyer does a great job, but this leads to a (morally) unjust result, surely you can see how that same congratulations could possibly seem just a bit "off." Imagine a criminal defense attorney, defending in a rape case. She does a fantastic job, manages to rattle and impeach the victim when the victim is testifying on the stand; and somehow, is also able to do this to the lead detective and totally impeaches that testimony as well. So, the rapist goes free, and rapes another woman a month later. Now, in terms of lawyering--this was an amazing job. Well worth acknowledgment. But when we read of the praise; many of us will react, in part, "Yeah, that was a great job in the courtroom. In fact; I'll remember that lawyer's name, in case I ever need a good defense. But, man; I feel terrible for that poor first victim. And feel bad that a rapist is still on the street. And feel bad for that second victim. Should the public praise for the lawyer be tempered by an acknowledgment of the harms and ills that happened in this entire case?"
It's a troubling phenomenon for me. As a lawyer, I always am pleased, on one hand, to see examples of zealous and effective advocacy. But, sometimes, it's internally difficult to reconcile these feelings with my sadness (or anger) at a result I don't morally agree with.
We used very similar hypotheticals, so I guess it comes down to saying "not to be congratulated" versus saying "are still in the wrong."
Mar,
Are you an attorney? I guess that, as an attorney who sometimes represents bad people (and, on rare occasions, represents REALLY bad people), I'm a bit sensitive about calling ethical lawyers "in the wrong" for effectively advocating for their clients. I am a big believer in our legal system, and a big believer in the idea that everyone should get a good lawyer.
So, I'm gonna fight you on this one, and I hope to convince you to move to my side of this semantic fine point. 🙂
I hope you realize my remark was sarcasm.
I did not. (I often/usually miss this re online postings)
So, the clarification was appreciated.
Also, if you were always in the habit of representing good guys, you would probably become insufferable.
Of course the exclusion serves a useful - even arguably just purpose: discouraging the police from illegally seizing evidence.
That may or may not be enough, but it is a countervailing factor.
I don't see that in this case.
Because you don't agree with the Church's position on the subject.
Its position on the subject isn't mine, but I think the principle of religious institutions being allowed to pursue their own values without interference from the state is a useful one.
" But as a legal matter, I don't see how it affects the analysis of the Church's First Amendment rights. "
This blog's view of First Amendment rights flutters with the political winds, and in a predictably right-wing direction, reflecting paltry partisanship over anything approaching principle.
#FreeSpeechChamp
#FreeSpeechChump
"(closeted gay)"
I do find it amusing when "liberals" imply being a homosexual is bad when its someone they don't like.
I was pointing out the hypocrisy, as rank as Roy Cohn's.
"I was pointing out the hypocrisy"
Thee are gay priests, but you have no evidence that this bishop is one.
Nothing hypocritical about being a gay priest either unless the priest has gay sex. Priests are supposed to be celibate, they aren't dead.
" Priests are supposed to be celibate, "
Someone should have told the Catholic Church.
Thousands of children would be better off (and their parents wouldn't be consumed by guilt for entrusting their children to an immoral, shit-rate organization that facilitated and concealed abuse of children to protect personnel, image, and wealth).
If you're looking for outrage, consider this:
The Ten Commandments doesn't have one statement regarding two adults of the same gender getting married. But, down at #7 of the sins God wanted everyone to know about is adultery. Catholics believe that divorce and remarriage (while your former spouse still lives and not including annulments) is adulterous. You can be excommunicated for it, in fact.
How many employees at the school are in a second marriage? Statistically something like half are. Why are they still employed?
God went through all the trouble to set a bush on fire, demand loudly in a British accent that Moses carve up a bunch of words on stone, and then had that grey-haired dude march the heavy tablets all over the place to make sure everyone knew that these were the most serious requirements for his believers. But some Archbishop somewhere is only willing to pry into the personal details of LGBT employees who are barely mentioned in Leviticus (although with a command to put them to death, mind you) next to eating shrimp and wearing mixed fabrics.
How many employees at the school are in a second marriage? Statistically something like half are. Why are they still employed?
Forgive me if I doubt that you'd be OK with the Diocese of Indianapolis firing teachers who have attempted marriage after civil divorce. When the Catholic Diocese of Arlington fired an employee for exactly this a couple of decades ago, the same kind of people squawking about the firing of this teacher squawked about the firing of that employee.
And what the hell, by the way does it mean to say that "statistically something like half are" in adulterous second unions? Was there a survey of Diocese of Indianapolis school employees or something?
"I despise Christianity so my argument here won't convince me. I will use it in the hope you'll feel guilty so you will do what I want."
Christianity doesn't improve bigotry, except in the eyes of bigots.
I want to be President of PETA while eating a rack of spare ribs in their face but they won't let me. Can I get the leftists on this thread to cry for me as well?
Amos,
I think you meant to write, "I want to CONTINUE TO BE President of PETA, after eating hamburgers around co-workers for 10+ years with no problem, but now after writing a public Op-Ed in favor of eating meat."
Yeah, sure, I'll support your case. Sounds like all the upper management was fine with your job performance over the past decade. I'm not sure if I'm a leftist (I think my pro-gun positions and my "tax cuts for the filthy rich" positions disqualify me from that category), but I'll support you nonetheless.
So if the leader of a organization manages to hide their flaunting of the fundamental rules of the organization for long enough its no takebacksies? This one person gets to make everyone else in the group suffer so they can keep their job According to what coherent philosophical system? Does this apply to a conservative leading an leftwing organization?
Man the entitlement is off the charts here.
Firing gay people is just how the Catholic church diverts attention away from it's own sexual and moral failings.
I don't understand why LGBT people continue to take employment at these places and expect decent treatment.
The Church wants gays not to work at the school so gays should not take jobs at the school. That will show the Church!
The Catholic Church has been demonstrated to be a morally bankrupt, criminal organization.
Plenty of gullible, stale-thinking clingers are willing to overlook that, though, because they lack judgment, character, and a reliable tether to the reality-based world.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.
Do you belong to a political party, Arty?
Which one?
Yes. I am a registered member of the Democratic Party.
I blame my education.
I guess you know all about morally bankrupt, criminal organizations, then.
You don't think I learned anything from decades of kicking Republican ass in election court?
(That's with respect to the moral bankruptcy issue. I do not contend the Republican Party is a criminal organization, although decades of being governed by a consent decree says a lot about Republicans and conservatives that goes beyond just the moral failure reflected by voter suppression, racism, misogyny, xenophobia, gay-bashing, and belligerent ignorance.)
I suppose you forgot how deeply most of the Catholic hierarchy is in bed with the Democratic leadership. Why do you think most of them give Communion to pro-abortion Democrats?
Yet you would have the world believe that you are untainted by your association with the Democratic Party.
At least Democrats would never stoop to child abuse.
" I suppose you forgot how deeply most of the Catholic hierarchy is in bed with the Democratic leadership. "
What experience or evidence underlies that assertion?
I have been an elected and appointed official of the Democratic Party. I have never observed what you describe.
I have seen a Catholic church that provided (for a fee) a polling place remove the Democratic signs along the walkways from the parking lot to the polling place while leaving the Republican signs.
That was the final year of service for that church. Maybe those assholes will another chance after I die.
Have you heard of this guy? From the clingers at the New York Times, see if you can guess who this sentence refers to:
"he fit seamlessly into a 1980s Catholic cityscape forged by the spirit of Vatican II, the influence of liberation theology and the progressivism of Cardinal Joseph L. Bernardin, the archbishop of Chicago...
"To expand congregations as well as the reach of his organizing program, Mr. Obama went to Holy Ghost Catholic Church in South Holland, Ill., to ask Wilton D. Gregory, an African-American bishop and a rising star in the hierarchy, for a grant for operating costs. Archbishop Gregory...recalled Mr. Obama as a persuasive man who “wanted to engage the people of the neighborhood.” He recommended that Cardinal Bernardin release the funds."
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/us/the-catholic-roots-of-obamas-activism.html
This from 2014. Now let's see what happened to the "rising star," Gregory:
"Wilton Daniel Gregory (born December 7, 1947) is an American prelate of the Catholic Church who is the archbishop of Washington, US. Pope Francis elevated him to the rank of cardinal on November 28, 2020. He is the first African-American cardinal.
"He was the auxiliary bishop of Chicago from 1983 to 1994; the bishop of Belleville, Illinois, from 1994 to 2004; and the archbishop of Atlanta, from 2005 to 2019. He was the first Black president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) from 2001 to 2004, when the USCCB issued the "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People" in response to Roman Catholic sex abuse cases."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilton_Daniel_Gregory
Now let's take a look at Archbishop Gregory allowing communion to Nancy Pelosi:
"Despite the ban on her receiving in San Francisco and Santa Rosa, Pelosi reportedly received Communion May 22 during Mass at Holy Trinity Catholic Church in Georgetown, in the Archdiocese of Washington.
"Cardinal Gregory told a reporter — Jack Jenkins at Religion News Service — in 2020 that he would not deny Communion to pro-abortion Catholic politicians."
https://www.ncregister.com/cna/dc-archdiocese-mistakenly-gives-candid-response-on-pelosi-communion-denial
You may come across some clinger prelates who think there's some sort of problem with Democratic policies, but these clingers are on their way to replacement by better, more Democratic prelates.
I can understand you missing an article in the National Catholic Register, but how could you miss an article in the New York Times, the Paper of Record?
Consequence of losing this case? Teach in the public schools, and get a raise of 40%. He would have had to pay tax on the full settlement and could have been bankrupted if he had won, after the lawyers took almost all of it.
I consider it lawyer malpractice to not disclose the tax consequences of a settlement prior to proceeding with these cases. Failure to do so it to mislead and should be deterred with exemplary damages.
But Payne-Elliott gets fired.
Maybe he can. Maybe not. I doubt you know.
The fact is he didn't do that, so maybe it's not such an obviously great move, at least from his POV.
Because he's been there for 13 years, presumably likes his job and is at least competent at it, possibly good, may have built up pension benefits, seniority, etc. may have done other things, like decided to live near the school, etc. Because he doesn't teach religious subjects.
Besides, it is just trolling, as captcrisis says, or making a political statement.
The church has let the guy teach for a long time. There's no reason it can't go on. No one is forcing them to say anything about the marriage, or recognize it, or anything.
That's a ridiculous reading of the comment.
Is it not allowed to point out hypocrisy?
Of course not.
It's bunk for totally different reasons.
One less teacher to impose childhood indoctrination and teach absolute fucking nonsense in a classroom.
The children in that classroom have an excuse for being gullible. The adults? They're indefensible.
He kept his sexuality to himself, presumably, for 13 years, before he decided it was safe to violate company policy,
You are making that up. It seems extremely unlikely to me.
No. Not at all. I said zip about the whole religion being bad.
What I said was that the firing was unjust.
You are misrepresenting my comments badly, because you have no response. Essentially, you say, "the Church requires it." Ok. Doesn't mitigate the injustice.
Lame, m_k. Straight to the strawman victimizer.
Not sure if you're oversensitive or deflecting, but either way you should recalibrate.
bernard11,
I also doubt he kept his sexuality entirely to himself. That said, we don't know how much he publicized it or his choices about sex.
Whether they knew or not is likely not important to their view. The archdiocese view is likely that until he married, he was not making an open, public declaration to live in sin.
Notice, their objection was he was a spouse:
The objection is not that he is gay. It is not that he has gay sex. It is, quite specifically, that he has a spouse.
.
They may well have known he was gay and behaving in ways they consider sinning, But everyone sins. So, from their POV, while he was unmarried, they didn't necessarily require them to not hire him to teach their students.
But then he made a material (to them) change in his position. The marriage is/was a proclamation that he intends to openly, publicly live his life in a state the church considers sinful.
(Note: not Catholic. But parents were and sent me to Catholic school. So I often know how the hierarchy tends to think about these things.)
Why does it seem more unlikely to you that the church hierarchy wasn't aware of his sexuality, and they wanted him fired once they learned about it, than that they shrugged for a dozen years and then one day just decided to get him fired?
The firing seems unjust. Forcing the church to retain an employee who openly and publicly defies the tenets of their religion would also be unjust.
There was a similar issue at Benet academy near me. Benet is a catholic school that used to have ties with the Benedictine Monks. The controversy first erupted in Sept 2021, when the school offered a job to a lacrosse soccer coach in a same sex marriage. Then they rescinded the offer, but then they extended it again. In Jan 2022 Monks cut ties after Benet hired and retained the lacrosse soccer coach.
I haven't found any news stories since Jan 2022. However, I don't see the coaches name (Amanda Kammes) on Benet's list of staff anymore. https://www.benet.org/m/staff/
She seemed to be an excellent coach and may have gotten a job elsewhere. (Though I can't imagine there are tons and tons of Lacrosse coach jobs.) Or maybe she found the atmosphere of the school unappealing. But for sure, the Benedictine Monks felt they couldn't associate with a Catholic School that retained her.