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Not Everything Bad is "Anti-Democratic" - and that which is Democratic isn't Always Good
Tyler Cowen explains why it's a mistake to conflate democracy with what is good and just.
In a recent Bloomberg column, my George Mason University colleague Tyler Cowen - a prominent economist - warns against the growing tendency to conflate "democracy" with good and just policy, and describe anything we oppose as "anti-democratic":
One of the most disturbing trends in current discourse is the misuse of the term "anti-democratic." It has become a kind of all-purpose insult, used as a cudgel to criticize political and intellectual opponents. Not only is this practice intellectually lazy, but it threatens to distort the meaning and obscure the value of democracy.
The advantages of democracy are obvious, at least to me, and deserve greater emphasis:
- Democracy helps produce higher rates of prosperity and economic growth.
- Democratic governments are more likely to protect human rights and basic civil liberties.
- As philosopher Karl Popper stressed, democracy helps societies escape the very worst rulers, by voting them out of office and in the meantime constraining them with checks and balances.
Of course democracy is not perfect. First, a lot of individual democratic decisions are not very good…. Second, there are periods when some countries might do better as non-democracies, even though democracy is better on average…
Too much commentary ignores these nuances….
The danger is that "stuff I agree with" will increasingly be labeled as "democratic," while anything someone opposes will be called "anti-democratic." Democracy thus comes to be seen as a way to enact a series of personal preferences rather than a (mostly) beneficial impersonal mechanism for making collective decisions….
[M]any on the political left in the US have made the charge that the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade was "anti-democratic." It is fine to call Dobbs a bad decision, but in fact the ruling puts abortion law into the hands of state legislatures. If aliens were visiting from Mars, they simply would not see that move as anti-democratic….
By conflating "what's right" with "what's democratic," you may end up fooling yourself about the popularity of your own views. If you attribute the failure of your views to prevail to "non-democratic" or "anti-democratic" forces, you might conclude the world simply needs more majoritarianism, more referenda, more voting.
Those may or may not be correct conclusions. But they should be judged empirically, rather than following from people's idiosyncratic terminology about what they mean by "democracy" — and, by extension, "anti-democratic."
The conflation of what is "democratic" with what is right and just has a number of unfortunate consequences. First, it promotes intellectual confusion. Second, and more importantly, it essentially defines away the possibility that democracy - understood, more reasonably, as a majoritarian political process - should be constrained in order to protect other values, and counter various predictable pathologies of democratic government, such as widespread voter ignorance and oppression of minority groups.
All too often there are trade-offs between democracy and other values, such as liberty, equality, and justice. We shouldn't let terminological confusion blind us to that reality.
I have made similar points about the need to avoid conflating democracy with good and just policy in previous writings, such as here:
Admittedly, the term "democratic" is sometimes used as just a kind of synonym for "good" or "just," rather than in the more narrow sense of referring to governance by majoritarian political institutions. By that standard, such policies as school segregation, cruel punishments, and laws banning same-sex marriage are inherently "undemocratic," no matter how much political support they enjoy. Whatever the linguistic merits of this usage, it is not analytically helpful. If anything good is by definition also democratic and anything democratic is by definition also good, then democracy ceases to be a useful concept for constitutional theory, or any other type of intellectually serious analysis.
Recognizing that democracy isn't inherently good and that not all evil and harmful policies are anti-democratic doesn't by itself tell us how much democracy should be constrained and in what way. But it does help remove conceptual confusion that impedes clear thinking on the subject.
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At a minimum, the English language could do with a concept like Rechtsstaat, which describes a system that has the rule of law, human rights, and democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat
Hi, Ilya. May I repeat my introduction to the dose response curve. Too little of a remedy does not work. Too much is toxic. It hard work to find the correct dose. The lawyer has never fulfilled this requirement. Why do the hard work when you have men with guns?
Not the best connotation
Explain?
German-language legal concepts do not conjure up the best images in the American mind. You may see secular judicial utopias presided over by Erasmus, Spinoza and Kant. We see Volksgerichte and Peoples' Praesidiums.
That's just dumb.
"Those Germans are really nice guys. Sure they made some mistakes in the past, but that's why pencils have erasers."
If it makes you feel better, "Dutch" doesn't have such a great connotation in English either.
Wait, are you telling me that Kant is to blame for the Holocaust? Or is it just your terrible language skills that he's to blame for?
And the swastika is a perfectly harmless symbol in various religions and cultures. I still cannot unsee its history.
In fairness, most countries have some skeletons in the closet. In terms of 'let's conquer Europe just because' the Swedes have Gustavus Adolphus, France has Napoleon, etc. The Danes and Norwegians have the Vikings, which were into raiding more than conquest, but still weren't nice people. The US of course has Jim Crow.
You can argue there should be a statue of limitations, but that raises the point that Hitler was deposed a bit before Jim Crow ended.
Jim Crow was bad, but comparing it to the Holocaust (or the USSR for that matter) is silly for reasons that have been hashed out ad nauseam.
A more apt historical parallel to American Slavery and Jim Crow would be how our Dutch friends behaved in what is now Indonesia and their various other colonial holdings.
1)However one ranks it, it is a skeleton in our closet.
2)The Dutch/Spanish/Portuguese/etc were terrible slavemasters. OTOH, Jim Crow was practiced right out my front door, in my lifetime, so it hits a little closer to home than Borneo.
I get what you are saying, and am not claiming that the US is perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
I just get sick of being lectured by smug Europeans -- it activates my inner Col. Jessup.
If you don't want to be lectured by Europeans, maybe try and suck less than Europe does?
You can't handle the truth!!
Wow, it worked.
The US supervised fair, democratic elections in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
They basically voted to end democracy.
Democracy in and of itself isn't particularly valuable.
I suppose free speech, or trial by jury, also aren't totally necessary to a free society, but there are good reasons for having them.
By taking away democracy you have essentially taken away the right to self governance, which I view as at least as important as free speech. Because if your leaders go too far off the reservation, you have the right to change them.
You can keep your trial by jury. I'd rather have rule of law.
Japan had a 99.99% conviction rate before jury trials, when judges (former prosecutors) were the ones deciding guilt or innocence.
What lovely rule of law - for the people the choose which laws to enforce.
I'm not sure why you think that's a slam dunk argument when you yourself explained why their previous system was also terrible.
In my native land the court has to write a judgment that explains the law, its findings of fact, and how it applied the law to the facts. If any of that is wrong, the defendant can appeal and get their guilty verdict overturned. That is the rule of law, and I personally think it's rather important.
Jury trial I would agree with, but I think free speech is definitionally necessary for a free society.
This is why it is so critical to have a constitutionally limited government to prevent the passions of the moment to run roughshod over the rights of the individual. Far too many people think if Congress votes for it that alone is enough to make it legal and moral.
Yes and no on the value of democracy. The point is that a country needs certain cultural institutions in place (including notions like a universally-applicable rule of law), before a functioning representative government can take hold.
We use democracy as shorthand for that -- a functioning and representative government. But sometimes people get caught up in semantics, and see elections as the sole attribute of a democracy. That is when "democracy" becomes overvalued.
Classism and democracy are mutually incompatible.
Some wonder why South America keeps screwing up. Why do they end up democratically voting in Chavez, Peron, and Allende (and now Petro in Columbia and Boric in Chile. Chile is in the process of writing a non-democratic constitution.
And the answer is classism. South America is classist in ways not really comprehensible by Americans. You just can't get a good job unless you're connected. People don't like that. And they vote to end it any way they can, which is to vote for socialist revolution.
And then the socialists blow it up and they cycle back to either democracy or dictatorship.
I worked for a company in the late 90s that had properties in South America, including Bolivia. I’d go down there from time time. At the time I was traveling to Bolivia the president was a democratically elected guy named Hugo Banzar. This was his second stint as president of Bolivia. For most of the 70s he was a military dictator. I think now Bolivia is also in the socialist phase, but I haven’t kept up.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I don’t think the experience of countries with no democratic traditions is particularly useful. Afghanistan has no real tradition of democracy. Neither does Iraq. So it’s to be expected that their experience would be different from ours
So it’s to be expected that their experience would be different from ours
And yet, GW Bush put hundreds of billions down on a bet that democracy was somehow magic. The key to American success.
He was wrong. Totally wrong.
Economic freedom in all forms, along with protection of earned assets is what drove American prosperity.
Exactly.
W embodied a post-Cold War utopianism that transcended party lines. It believed that "oppressed" people were just caged hearts yearning to be free, and that with our support nascent democracies would hatch and turn into fully-functional liberal democracies, ready to take their places as responsible world citizens. Afghanistan and Iraq put the lie to that. But we continued to nurture the same fantasies about places like Egypt, Libya and, to a slightly lesser extent, Ukraine, after their various technicolor revolutions. It was like the Obama administration took a hard look at Bush's missteps and miscalculations, and proceeded to draw exactly the wrong conclusions.
Well, if you're going to depose a dictator and install someone else, by making it a democracy you at least avoid some of the blame if the person doesn't work out - they chose that person, not us.
You mean conquest, geographic isolation, etc. had nothing at all to do with it?
It's a bit unfair to compare Iraq and Afghanistan to the US of today.
How much in the way of "democratic traditions" did the colonies have in the early 19th century before the American Revolution?
It's a bit unfair to compare Iraq and Afghanistan to the US of today.
It's totally fair to point out that democracy isn't the key ingredient.
I seem to recall one of the big sticking points of the revolution was that the colonists were not allowed to participate in the democratic traditions of Great Britain
But every country didn’t have any experience with democracy at some point.
I would suggest that to be lasting and stable, democracy is better developed from within than imposed from without. As the people are the sovereign in a democratic republic, the people need to value democracy and individual rights in order for them to endure hardship.
Doesn’t this idea of yours really just benefit abusive rulers? You are like arguing, for example, that Chinese people NEED to be viciously abused by the Chinese Communist Party or some other controlling entity because they don’t have the capacity to govern themselves. I am not sure who other than vicious regimes benefits from anti-democratic arguments.
Not at all. External pressure to reform can and should be done. I am talking about the track record of "regime change" by force. In some cases it seems to have worked (post WWII Germany and Japan, for instance), but in others it clearly failed.
I am mainly saying that a country moving to democracy from authoritarianism is going to need real, home-grown leadership that values democratic ideals and individual rights and for the largest portion of the society to also value them. It is not something that can simply be imposed. Without substantial 'buy-in' from a large majority of the population, instability and conflict will likely wreck whatever democratic institutions are imposed.
Fair enough. Good intentions are not enough. A proper implementation is needed and even then, success is far from guaranteed.
Yeah - "generally but not universally leads to better outcomes than other political systems or practices" doesn't have the pithiness of "good".
The pithy formulation is that "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried."
It's not so much that it's great, as that it generally precludes some of the worst excesses of the other forms, while its own excesses are mostly survivable.
It's not an alternative to oppression, it's a way of choosing the oppressor, but it generally at least results in only the minority being oppressed, while the other forms permit the majority to be oppressed.
I agree that there are problems with democracy but the question is what to put in its place. I see little evidence that the political minority is any better at policy making than the majority. Authoritarianism in its various flavors has generally not worked well.
I think the best solution is to allow the people to elect by simple majority their elected officials, while having in place a strong bill of rights.
There are options. Among them, include as you and I have discussed, is anarchism. Another is to mitigate the worst aspects of democracy with bills of rights, as you suggest. But more than that is needed. All that does is forbid action in a few areas but fails to prevent the government from acting in every other area. Thus a constitution of enumerated and limited power must accompany a bill of rights. Our constitution has been interpreted to otherwise as Justice O’Connor’s dissent in South Dakota v Dole where she recognizes that there are no limits to what Congress can do save what limits it imposed on itself. That is not how one defines limited government.
Political philosophers going back even to Machiavelli have said the only way government limits itself is when government has competing elements of democracy, aristocracy and monarchy one what is today described as mixed government. Our nation tried to create an executive which had monarchical elements and in lieu of aristocracy, a senate whose members were not directly elected.
We have abandoned this model in favor of more democracy without these other mitigating elements. We now directly elect senators and the presidency is for all intents and purposes, a popularly elected office with the formality of the EC reflecting the popular will of the democratic majority in each state. We no longer have the other elements of a mixed government.
As I understand it, in the Marxist conception democratic institutions can only exist once the super structures that oppress the unliberated are destroyed. Thus, anything that does not move history in the direction of a revolutionized society (so as to then become the new super structure that creates the next round of man who then creates a new society and so on until the end of history) is undemocratic or anti-democratic.
Democratic institutions are also considered to exist only when such a new world exists, a world that is asserted to be good and better than what is simply "by definition" as it is a movement through the dialectic of history and society. Thus, since that world is defined as "good" (even if simply by mere assertion) and democratic practices can then finally be achieved in this new, good world populated by the "new socialist man" then those democratic institutions by default must be good... or else they could not exist in such a world.
This isn't the product of lazy linguistics. The genesis of this type of wordplay is purposeful. That it is ignorantly carried out by "useful idiots" means little in the grand scheme of things.
It is of course a true sentiment, one indeed people should remember.
Conservative types, of course, increasingly complain about democratic outcomes as they have to share representation more, and make noises like this. It is worth remembering Cowen's admiration for Singapore's mode of government.
Less verbal accomplished types fall back on the logically broken and factually incorrect Bircher "republic, not a democracy" canards, but it is a spectrum.
Did John Birch write the Pledge of Allegiance?
"...and to the Republic for which it stands..."
For that matter, did John Birch write the Constitution?
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..." (Art. IV(4))
"The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended." /Federalist #10 (Madison)
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp
It should be noted, for those that didn't read the whole of Federalist #10, that Madison was referencing "pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person..."
I generally assume that people use the word democracy, as a form of government, as meaning the same thing as what Madison was calling a republic - that representatives are elected by a majority of citizens. The pure democracy that had critics of the concept in the Founding era does not exist anywhere in the modern world, except perhaps on very small scales, like in extremely small towns where every adult citizen could literally meet in the same town hall at the same time.
"greater sphere of country, over which [a Republic] may be extended" - that seems to cover the ground.
Not that we're bound by a definition formulated by (to use Scott Adams' term) cross-dressing slaveholders who pooped in holes - we can use our own terminology if we want, or we could use Madison's and recall what he considered key distinctions.
But the Constitution refers to republican form of government, not democratic, so keeping the constitutional usage could be seen as useful.
Whether we are a republic or a democracy depends on whether we are speaking Latin or Greek. Republic is Latin for democracy, and democracy is Greek for republic.
Res - thing
Publica -- people's. Thus, a republic is "the people's thing".
Demos - People
Kratika - Rule Thus, a democracy is "the people rule".
Plus, even if there were a genuine difference, that doesn't answer the question of whether we would be better off as one or the other. It's the difference between "is" and "ought". Making an "is" statement of fact doesn't answer the "ought" question of whether we would be better off as something else.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/01/19/the-u-s-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy/
So, if the majority voted for slavery for Black people, that would be Democracy in action?
No. That would be Republicancy in action.
Rev:
You are more intelligent than this.
No. The special people are above democracy. Democracy in action only justifies hurting you, stealing from you, oppressing you.
The justification they use when they hurt black people is that they didn’t intend it but it keeps happening over and over anyway. And it’s probably actually somehow your fault, not theirs, even though they did it and you opposed doing it.
This is a fucking bizarre response to that hypothetical.
And yet it actually reflects the (increasingly bizarre and repulsive) claims and behaviors of the left.
Michael, find me a leftist who actually said that.
That's why we have a bill of rights, to keep majority rule from going too far afield. That's a separate question, though, from whether the majority should be able to choose its own leaders.
Except that leftist judges ignore the Bill of Rights if they don't like what it says, and invent things that aren't there.
There is no right in the Constitution to kill an unborn baby or to penetrate another person without protection.
They don't ignore it, they understand it to have a different meaning than you do.
The conservative trope that there is only one way to amend the Constitution is just flat out wrong, and reasonable minds can disagree about what something means. Some parts of it aren't ambiguous -- you can't be president unless you're at least 35 years of age really isn't susceptible of an alternate meaning. But when we get into vague, amorphous terms like due process and equal protection and privileges and immunities, you're going to have reasonable minds reaching all kinds of different conclusions.
Due process and equal protection are not vague. In no universe does it refer to Lawrence barebacking his "husband."
Yes it does. Equal protection requires homosexuals and heterosexuals be treated equally by the law.
Yes, and they always were. The laws against unnatural sexual acts applied equally to all people. Nobody was permitted to bareback another person of the same sex.
"The law, in its majestic equality, makes it illegal for both rich and poor to steal bread, sleep under bridges, and beg in the streets."
Yes, and they always were. The laws against unnatural sexual acts applied equally to all people.
Grandfather clauses treated white and black people equally under the law, right?
"The conservative trope that there is only one way to amend the Constitution is just flat out wrong"
That's just flat out wrong 🙂
There will always be ambiguity - does the 4A allow warrantless GPS trackers, for example. The Constitution just doesn't address those explicitly, so you have to take your best guess as to how the principles apply. But I don't think it's right to characterize taking that best guess as 'amending' the Constitution, as long as you stick to your guess once made.
What we shouldn't do is, without the formal amendment process, is change our minds about what the existing meaning was. For example, hanging rapists did not violate the 8A when the Constitution was written. If we decide that's a bad idea today, we should amend the constitution using the formal process, not just decide that the very same words that once allowed it now forbid it. The meaning of the Constitution shouldn't be subject to change every time a new justice is sworn in.
At the time the Constitution was written, there were a great many things that were considered acceptable that would shock the conscience today. South Carolina executed someone by burning at the stake as recently as 1830; you really want to make the case that that wouldn't be unconstitutional today?
The Constitution should not and does not change each time a new justice is sworn in, but over time, a consensus develops that this or that practice is no longer in line with our national values. Unfortunately legislatures are governed by inertia, so lots of laws remain on the books that no longer reflect our values. Most of the time they don't get challenged in court because you need a plaintiff with standing; that is, a plaintiff who has actually been singled out for bad treatment. But when such a plaintiff happens along, I don't think the courts are required to wait for inertia-bound legislatures to catch up to the times. If they did, we'd probably still have racial segregation in parts of the South.
"At the time the Constitution was written, there were a great many things that were considered acceptable that would shock the conscience today."
Sure, e.g. slavery. And there were things you couldn't do - ban booze or have an income tax. Women couldn't vote. When we decided times warranted changes, we changed the Constitution to suit our new preferences, instead of just ignoring it.
"The very word "unusual" implies that context matters."
I disagree. The 4A prohibits unreasonable searches, also implying context. Can the court say 'because of drugs/terror/satanic cults we now consider it reasonable for any police officer to search any house if he, in his sole judgement, thinks the search is reasonable'? Redefining things in that way is not a power I'm willing to cede to the court.
What we shouldn't do is, without the formal amendment process, is change our minds about what the existing meaning was. For example, hanging rapists did not violate the 8A when the Constitution was written. If we decide that's a bad idea today, we should amend the constitution using the formal process, not just decide that the very same words that once allowed it now forbid it. The meaning of the Constitution shouldn't be subject to change every time a new justice is sworn in.
Bad example, not to mention a particular definition of "meaning."
The very word "unusual" implies that context matters. Things that are usual in some contexts may be unusual when the context changes.
C.S. Lewis on the general issue.
Yeah, Democrats just say whatever to attack people. They don’t pay attention to what they say, so why should anyone else?
Giving the governed a voice in their governance is morally correct.
Good policies are also morally correct. But the lack of one does not obviate the other.
Democracy is an inherent good, independent from good policy outcomes that may or may not arise.
I wouldn't say it is, in and of itself, an inherent good. It is certainly better that people have a voice than not (even if that voice ends up being bad or dumb... the mechanical aspect of "the people" having a say is still better than not). But the only truly inherent good, in and of itself, is concented agreement... individual choice limited by rights. That is not democracy at all... it is anarchy. Because as you rightly pointed out the outcomes may be bad, but the moral nature of the system can be judged separately.
Anarchy fails to enable the level of society that facilitates maximum human flourishing. Maybe democracy isn’t a good compared to an imaginary world where every person was an immortal god, with full control over their environment. But in the real world, it is a good thing.
Per sarcatro's point... a system and its outcomes can be judged separately. An ideal is not always practical, that does not make it not ideal.
the only truly inherent good, in and of itself, is concented agreement
You do not believe this. Because you also say: "It is certainly better that people have a voice than not."
So to you there is a ranking: direct consent->democracy->others.
A rank order does not make all things in the rankings good things in and of themselves. The ideal may be a good, yet in practice we utilize things that are merely better than other options but still contain elements that prevent it from being an inherent good.
Democracy assumes some collective control of humans by others. That is what it is. That is not an inherent good, quite the opposite. But that it does allow at least some level of personal input is better than other options.
OK, fair - I was seeing a continuum but you can declare a threshold within said continuum.
Of course both democracy and individual autonomy have limits - you can't see yourself into slavery, a society can't vote your rights away (without a lot of effort).
A slavery contact, voluntarily entered into and enforced by others, is contrary to full individual autonomy.
In a world with full individual autonomy, contracts could only be enforced by reputation. Thus, only those who were fanatics would honor a contract resulting in their slavery.
In a world with full individual autonomy, contracts could only be enforced by reputation.
Which is a pie in the sky and not worth really thinking about. It may be a consistent ideological edifice, but it's not worth much more than that.
You are the one that brought up slavery contracts. So, I don’t think your objection that it is pie in the sky makes sense.
You suggested that making a slavery contract was a limit on individual autonomy. I suggested it was not. In fact, a modern contract is a combination of individual autonomy (agreement to enter into a contract) and democracy (public enforcement of a private arrangement).
I brought up slavery contracts being illegal. And they are...so I'm pretty concretely in reality.
And we can see in practice post-Lochner why we put those guardrails on. Unless you think the child labor 126 hour week no safety conditions era was maximum freedom.
Contracts being universally enforced only by reputation is dealing with a humanity that does not exist as much as any Marxist theory ever did.
The idea of dealing with others based on reputation rather than using the law to keep their promises is actually quite common and far from crazy. Examples include things like promises to marry. That you can't enforce an engagement through specific performance has not resulted in the fall of civilization. If people couldn't force people to keep their promises, they would adapt by limiting dealings to fewer people based on trust. (In fact, people still do this. Just because you CAN enforce a broken promise doesn't mean it is worth the expense and trouble of doing so. Or that the person is not judgment proof. Hence credit checks. And most of us would much prefer the promise was honored than going to the trouble of dragging someone into court.) That is hardly outside the bounds of humanity.
Think about it. Use your imagination. Just because that is outside our legal tradition doesn't mean it is crazy. (I wonder if Native Americans had a system of enforceable contracts?)
But I digress. My point is this. That slavery contracts are illegal is NOT a limitation on individual autonomy, because in a world with maximum individual autonomy, contracts wouldn't be coercively enforceable in the first place. Coercively enforceable contracts may facilitate social harmony, but they do not maximize individual autonomy.
This is true. Based in the assumption that everyone should be able to run their own life and make their own decisions as adults. In contrast to serfs who must obey nobility.
But the same sense that people must have autonomy which supports democracy also supports a floor of rights that can’t be rightly infringed by the democracy. For example, democratic deliberation is only possible with an individual right to free speech. But also, speech on non-political matters is also important so people sense that they run their own lives.
"For example, democratic deliberation is only possible with an individual right to free speech."
That is true; however, in order for the deliberation to achieve a successful end, shouldn't the individuals have some level of understanding of the issue(s)?
We won't be a successful nation if we have mouthbreathers determining safe levels of pollution.
Speech is the means by which education is transmitted.
As an experiment, go into a political forum and propose an outrageous policy (but not too outrageous) based on a clearly incorrect premise. People will tend to provide a free education in that context.
Who gets to decide the necessary 'level of understanding'?
Will you trust Behar to be the one that determines if you get to even speak on an issue, much less vote?
For example, democratic deliberation is only possible with an individual right to free speech.
I don't think that's true - see Athens. Democratic in an almost radical sense, but also no right to free speech and a bunch of other bizarre anti-liberty policies.
But to the extent that certain issues can’t even be discussed, it isn’t really a democracy, is it?
You can’t intelligently decide what you can’t discuss.
You appear to be redefining democracy from the common usage, then.
America wasn't a fake democracy until women could vote. It was just an imperfect one. Still is, actually.
That you call it imperfect concedes the point. If one prohibits or impede democratic deliberation, you also prohibit or impede democratic decision-making.
This has long been reflected in the law. When decision-making was limited to white males, speech that might otherwise result in civil liability, such as slander and libel, was privileged when made on the floor of legislatures.
Democracy requires discussion. Thus democracy requires free speech. You can’t govern yourself collectively along with others without the ability to speak freely.
Just a note that "speaking freely" doesn't and shouldn't imply a lack of social consequences for saying things people find offensive.
I don't necessarily even agree with that.
There is no reason that social consequences, if they are severe enough and comprehensive enough, can't practically inhibit the ability of people to discuss things and in that way prevent democratic deliberation and even undermine democracy itself.
There is a book titled "The Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town, 1930-1935" by William Allen. It's a fascinating read. The tl;dr is that the Nazis, when they had *any* kind of power, used it against their political opponents. If a Nazi happened to be the manager of a local factory, the vocal opponents would just happen to get laid off. If the police chief was a Nazi, opponents would have their weapons permits revoked on some pretext. People noticed the pattern and decided their job - they had kids to deed - was more important than objecting to the Nazis. It's a very insidious way to take over.
(I just looked - it's $3 on Kindle. Worth a read if you're interested in how democracies fail)
Now you're doing violence to what imperfect means.
An imperfect scarf is still a scarf.
Requiring perfection from a human endeavor is a recipe for nothing to ever be anything.
Our freedom of speech is even now imperfect - plenty of disagreements as to it's specific contours. Does that mean we're not a democracy?
Now we are just running into limits in human language.
When is a system "really" still a democracy and when isn't it? Is a hot dog really sandwich?
I think our democracy is, as you say, is imperfect. That has always been my position. Whether I go so far to call it something else is rather subjective.
In my opinion, calling it something other than a democracy would be pragmatically inadvisable, despite its imperfections. But I do not dogmatically adhere to that.
People argue a lot about definitions. I have always been of the school of thought that it doesn't matter what you call something as long as you are clear what you mean by it. So, if a writer wanted to define democracy as excluding the present system for purposes of some conversation, I could the rest of their writing perfectly well assuming they were consistent with their definition. Even if my pragmatic judgment about what to call our system of governance differed. Instead of calling our system of government a democracy, you could call it a blarg.
And no, a flawed scarf is not a real scarf! That is just crazy talk!! Off with your head!!! (Kidding. But I hope you already knew that.)
I have seen it said by many around here that democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. That sounds clever and expresses the negative possibilities of majority rule, but it also doesn't fit what democracy really is.
Democracy is one method of governing a body of people that have shared interests and thus all stand to benefit in the long run from wise decisions. The wolves and sheep have no shared interests or problems that voting would solve. What each wants is diametrically opposed to what the other wants. While on some issues, there will be opposing interests among different groups of people and individuals, the overall purpose of government is something that all have the same interest in supporting - the protection of basic human rights and pursuing prosperity for the whole of society. Until someone comes up with something better than democracy to achieve this purpose, democracy is the best option available.
Besides, I think someone once wrote that government derives its "just powers from the consent of the governed." I have yet to see any other method of determining when the governed have given their consent to the government other than through democratic elections.
That, in fact, is the issue: If you have a society where large parts of the population want diametrically opposed things, you get "two wolves and a sheep". This is why we need limited government, which attends only to those things there is a solid consensus on, and leaves the things we're fundamentally in disagreement about alone. Because we're always going to be divided that way about SOMETHING.
Unfortunately, that the government should limit itself to topics where there is a strong consensus isn't one of the things there's a strong consensus on, anymore. That's the heart of the problem: We've got a major party in this country that actually thinks they're entitled to do huge, irreversible things that wide swaths of the population oppose, so long as they've got even the smallest, most transitory majority in the government.
And now they've convinced themselves that the opposition are evil, and that absolutely anything is justified to fight that evil.
Look at that speech Biden gave last night: He's declaring the opposition party to be evil, not just mistaken. That's the sort of speech you give before initiating a purge, not before an ordinary election in a peaceful democracy. That's the sort of speech you give when you think the other side can't be allowed power even if they win a vote.
And if whoever arranged for the visuals wasn't deliberately aiming for "demagogic dictator" vibes, I don't know what they were thinking. Blood red lighting and soldiers standing behind him? You'd have thought that over the top if somebody were doing a movie!
Brett, I don't know anyone who supports "unlimited" government and I'm not even sure what that would look like. The question is how limited.
And the other question is how strong the consensus. I don't favor passing any policy that enjoys 50% + 1 support, but neither do I think the 30% of the country that can, as a practical matter, block anything they don't like, should be able to do so. Your political minority contains a certain number of cranks and malcontents and Luddities who will "just say no" to anything the majority wants. They should not be allowed to block progress just because they can.
Why should the minority be allowed to import unlimited numbers of immigrants solely to turn themselves into a majority?
"import"?
I think you missed some important news...
Be allowed? You mean be allowed to legitimately pass laws your nativist ass doesn't like?
We're not a direct democracy. Don't get violent over it.
Ignoring the law to permit millions of people to stream across the border is not "legitimately passing laws."
The American people never voted for the borders to be flung open to every third world peasant with illegitimate children.
Plenty of courts disagree with you on what counts as ignoring the law.
The American People vote for representatives, not policies.
And the border is not wide open. You can check the USCIS website - we deport people all the time.
The same "courts" composed of people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg (may she rot in hell) who thought that the Due Process Clause really meant that women can shove a needle into the heads of their third trimester baby and suck the brain out?
Yes, that Court.
You may not like it, but the Supreme Court is the one that interprets the law, not your personal take as fueled by your rage.
Feel free to go full 'an unjust law is no law at all' but be prepared to pay for your disobedience. That's a proud American tradition. But you don't seem like the type to make sacrifices of any sort, noble or no.
No, the proud American tradition is using force to alter and abolish "any government that becomes destructive of these ends."
It's not a proud American tradition for Jewish women to sit on the nation's highest court in order to promulgate lies.
Political violence because you're pissed off and antisemetic has a history, but not really one of liberty.
But I'm not worried. You're pretty clearly one of those inwardly turned bitter cowards. All you will ever manage is some cowardly antisemetic keyboard wankery.
Congrats on reaching your peak.
I suppose that unlimited democracy would be UK-style parliamentary supremacy.
30%. Lol. I didn’t realize that it took 70 votes to pass the senate. And you are on here all the time pushing for 50% + 1 victories.
Your political minority includes people who glue themselves to works of art and mass loot stores. You look pretty stupid up on that high horse.
It also includes people who think that gender is something you choose.
In the Senate, Wyoming cancels California, so yes, 30% of the population has the ability to block something. I didn't say 30% of the Senate; I said 30% of the population.
In the Senate, Vermont cancels Texas. Bullshit cuts both ways.
The people that are “blocking” things got a helluva lot more than 30% of the votes. The problem is that your side is trying to completely redo the country without an obvious mandate. That shit should be blocked.
If you look at the top ten population states, and the bottom ten population states, you'll find that the system favors conservatives. If it didn't, conservatives wouldn't be so adamant about keeping it the way it is.
The mandate isn't "obvious" because of anti-democratic institutions like the Senate and the electoral college. But if you add up the national vote totals for Congress, yes, Democrats do have a pretty good majority of the population behind them. You'd just never know it because Wyoming cancels California.
Sure. And the House majority is a whopping 5.
Scrawny little Vermont is canceling out my senators with their commie.
Biden does not have the mandate to make all the extremist changes he’s making. That, along with the results of his destructive extremism, is why his popularity is brushing historical lows. People voted for him to be a centrist Not Trump. Instead, he’s governing like Bernie Sanders.
Biden would have a mandate if the Senate had population-proportionate representation. You can't preclude democracy by anti-democratic institutions and then argue that Democrats should just win elections if they want to pass their stuff.
Our anti-democratic institutions are a shell game, which Democrats are increasingly no longer playing. Good.
The senate doesn’t give mandates. The people do. Biden is very unpopular with the people, in part because he’s way overstepped his grant from the people.
Biden may be unpopular in your conservative circles, but his polling data is not showing "very unpopular."
He's in the low 40's, comparable to where Trump spent most of his Presidency. Would you claim Trump wasn't very unpopular?
Biden's numbers have been going up for the past two months. They're not where they should be, but if current trends continue they will be by November.
"Should be"?
In the Senate, Vermont cancels Texas. Bullshit cuts both ways.
A BS data point. Senate Democrats represent somewhere around 55% of the population.
It’s a perfectly fine argument. A pointless whine answered with a pointless whine.
And you know that the set up of the senate is a feature, not a bug. So complain about 55% all you want. The design of the senate is keeping NYC and California from dictating to the rest of us, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT IT’S DESIGNED TO DO. Talking about it is a waste of time.
So what other complaints about violations of rights would you consider "pointless whining"? Losing your right to free speech? Having your guns taken away? Or is it only pointless whining if its a right you don't care about?
And "the rest of us" no more has the right to dictate to California and New York what national policy should be. Besides, it's not New York and California anyway; it's the voters who live there, whose votes should count just as much as votes from Kansas and South Dakota.
No, bevis. It's a stupid argument. It is relevant to absolutely nothing that some small states are blue and others red. It tells us nothing about how representative the Senate is or is not, or, more important, which party benefits from its unrepresentative structure.
As to whether that structure makes sense, there are differences of opinion. I think it's idiotic. The idea that NYC and California are going to dictate to the rest of us is idiotic. They are not conscious entities. They don't dictate to anyone. They are geographic areas where, as it happens, a lot of people live.
Now, it seems that you, and others, think those people's votes should count less than the votes of people in Wyoming, or Vermont. I have no idea why this is supposed to make sense, or be democratic.
Senate-lovers would, I suspect, react with outrage if I suggested that African-Americans should be given some sort of disproportionate representation, to protect their interests. Yet that would actually make more sense than giving people in small states that privilege. (Not that I'm advocating such a proposal.)
I understand it was a compromise necessary to get the Constitution ratified. That doesn't make it a wise arrangement.
The country has prospered with it in place for more than 200 years, but yeah it’s really a disaster.
It forces compromise bernard. I know the zealous like yourself prefer to simply bend your opponents to your will but some of prefer the middle ground. I don’t want to be bent to your will (or that of the wacky right).
And the political map changes. Given population trends, the day will come when Texas and Florida will be in a position to impose their will on everyone. You’ll appreciate the protection a lot more then.
Blah blah blah blah blah
Start a constitutional amendment. I'm sure you'll have no problem getting it ratified.
If the left wants a civil war, I don't think they're going to like the result.
Shush... You're making a fool of yourself.
All you big fucking talkers talking about a civil war. It’s cheap ass talk.
The conditions for survival that an actual civil war would create would leave you crying like a child.
Bevis, for once we agree. The consequence of a civil war would be mass hunger, a completely disrupted economy, and large sections of the country with no basic services. It would be lord of the flies.
His family trying to survive the winter in a bombed out house with no power or obvious source of food would be something he couldn’t cope with. Reality is a lot different than trash talk on a message board.
Civil war would hurt everyone. But make no mistake about it, conservatives would win. Badly
Whoever succeeds in overthrowing the democratically elected government is by definition not a conservative, though they might be (and probably would be) reactionary.
And, as others have explained, that's a very peculiar form of "winning".
No, they wouldn’t. If someone actually tried to start an active shooting civil war the vast majority of the country would step up and crush them like a bug. Whichever side.
All of you crazy zealots (right or left) see a handful of other zealots posting bullshit on the internet and think you’re part of some huge movement or something. You’re not. You’re a tiny tiny minority. Most of us out here are trying to ignore your garbage but will step up if you start some armed uprising crap.
What are you liberals going to "step up with?" Your Nerf guns? The extra-large vibrating dildo you ordered with your Amazon prime account?
Yeah, bevis, what are you liberals going to do, LOLOLOL.
I just got chided for hanging in conservative circles by Krychek and called a dildo totin’ liberal by this guy.
Within 30 minutes.
This is the best day ever.
Oh, I would never chide anyone for hanging in conservative circles; I've been known to hang out with conservatives myself. Merely cautioned that the people one surrounds oneself with are not necessarily representative of the public as a whole.
Point is I don’t hang in conservative circles. If I’m pissing off the left and the right, I’m having a good day.
If every MAGAt in the country snatched up their bejazzled AR-15 and headed off to civil war, you'd get maybe 10% of the country, most of them over 50 and white. The "leaning Right" independents are going to think of their kids first and join the Democrats to end the charade in under a month. You want to threaten the future of the nation's children with your boogaloo B.S.? Even a majority of Trump-voters would be against you.
It's not time yet, but if the Democrats keep pushing their grooming (they want to teach 5 year olds how to have gay sex with teachers), it's only a matter of time before it's 30-40%. You don't need a majority.
This is insane.
It is Republicans who take the position that if they don't win they were cheated.
It is Republicans who are setting up to use gerrymandered legislatures to give EV's to their candidate in 2024.
It is, just a day or two ago, Republicans in Michigan who invalidated an abortion rights petition over a ridiculous issue.
It is Trump who now announces he will pardon the 1/6 insurrectionists.
It is a very prominent Republican governor who is trumping upvoter fraud accusations.
You really are projecting.
The MAGAts are, in fact, a major threat to democracy in this country.
Democrats gerrymander too, bernard. Take a look at the original proposal for Maryland in the current cycle.
Who are the people importing tens of millions of immigrants solely for votes?
Ask those commies in the chamber of commerce.
Face it, you people want unlimited numbers of worthless third worlders because you know that they're mentally inferior and incapable of taking care of themselves, so they will always vote for free stuff. And the Democrat Party is really the Free Shit Party.
1. Your racist views suck.
2. Immigrants cannot vote.
3. If it weren't for the Cuban Americans, Florida would go Blue far more often.
Das raycis!
You're an idiot. In 18 years, the anchor baby "citizens" can vote. You leftists are playing the long game, by replacing Tom and James with Shaniqua, Carlos, and Ahmed.
A vast majority of Democrats claim the 2000 election was stolen and Bush was not legitimately elected.
A plurality - over 40% - of Democrats claim the 2004 election was stolen due to Diebold voting machines, and that Bush was not legitimately elected.
A vast majority of Democrats claim the Russia altered the 2016 election's vote totals and that Trump was not legitimately elected.
Democrats have taken the position that Republicans cannot win the presidency without cheats for more than 20 years. The last time the Democrats accepted a Republican presidential victory was in 1988. More than 30% of the Democrats have never accepted a Republican victory in their lives. 20% of Democrats were not even alive the last time their party accepted a Republican victory.
Don't pretend that Democrats do not accuse the Republicans of cheating when they don't win. They do it, and more often, too.
Can you provide citations for these?
I was a Florida voter in 2000 and your take on things doesn't align with my experience.
Also, I don't recall anyone making serious claims about Russians hacking voting machines. They certainly took advantage of Facebook's generosity with its user data and access to American voters to influence people's votes. But those votes were still accurately tallied as far as I know. Any evidence to prove this "vast majority" believed Russians actually hacked machines?
You appear to have constructed quite the straw/boogieman there.
You people constantly say the Supreme Court "installed" Bush. Don't you people ever get tired of lying and grooming?
"This is why we need limited government, which attends only to those things there is a solid consensus on, and leaves the things we're fundamentally in disagreement about alone."
This limited government is actually described in the constitution. That is what government is allowed to do is pretty narrow or at least should be.
AND if you disagree with the constitution it can be amended by super majority.
We should get back to following that
The Constitution is a contract. Contracts can be changed by course of dealing.
They can it's called an amendment. It requires a super majority.
No, it's called course of dealing. If the parties to the contract, by their conduct, are doing something different than what the contract says, the contract is considered to have been changed by their course of conduct. No super majority needed.
You're wrong. As usual. Make some more stuff up
Krychek_2: I see what you did here. You mention the "parties to the contract", without defining who they are, and then say "No super majority needed."
So, apparently you believe some percentage of the population are not parties to the contract. Could you be more specific who those people are?
The constitution is absolutely not a contract in the legal sense. There are no counter parties. Nobody to negotiate changes with.
And even if it were, the method of amending the “contract” is established in the “contract” and there isn’t any party that can agree to change it in a negotiation with a separate party.
This is a silly argument.
Oh, and keep your fucking zealotry away from my bill of rights.
The Constitution is a contract between the states and the federal government. They are the parties to the contract. The point of the amendment process is that the parties can change the contract if they choose to, which is why both Congress and the states get to vote on it.
However, in practice, when a course of dealing has persisted for a long enough period of time, it has become the course of dealing and therefore becomes the new contract. This is Contract Law 101; I doubt there's a lawyer here who will disagree with me on that point.
There is much that the federal government does that is well beyond the scope of what the original parties to the contract intended. Nevertheless, it has largely been done with the acquiescence of both the states, who benefit from federal money, and the voters, who keep re-elected politicians who do so. At this point, for example, the argument that social security is unconstitutional is about 75 years too late.
And, the amendment process is a shell game that my side is largely no longer playing.
The Constitution begins with the words “We the People” and ratification bypassed the states (by bypassing state legislatures).
Because your side is a bunch of totalitarian progressive assholes. Above the law. Something to be proud of.
Do you think that crap makes those of us out here in neutralville eager to consider voting for you?
Your policies, as implemented by Biden as he governs for the approval of progressive Twitter, are making a mess of things. The backlash will come assuming the Republicans ever manage to escape their Trumplove.
No, we're not totalitarian. We don't equate student loan forgiveness or single payer health care with Siberian gulags.
Hey, look! An example of your side no longer playing the shell game from main Reason yesterday!
https://reason.com/2022/09/01/these-emails-show-how-the-biden-administrations-crusade-against-misinformation-imposes-censorship-by-proxy/
"We don't like our opponents having 1st Amendment rights so let's use our weight to lean on someone else to take them away"
You must be so proud. But here's the thing. Trump is an imbecilic, amoral, narcissistic megalomanic. And your side keeps bleating "threat to democracy, threat to democracy!" But your side is a much, much bigger threat to democracy than Trump is, because as you say you give no shits about the rules any more. I don't want y'all anywhere near power, and I'll do whatever I can to make it so. Sorry, but you shouldn't be trying to take my rights away.
And how does this play with that "rule of law" thing?
Or are laws outdated, now, too?
Democracy is incompatible with open borders. If we have to have open borders, then I am against democracy.
Democracy is incompatible with open borders.
Well, then it is a good thing that it would never happen in the U.S. There certainly isn't any significant political movement trying to make it happen.
I'm really tired of the gaslighting, outright lies, and bullshit from you people on this issue. As it is, millions of people are streaming across the border every year. They are turning themselves in and claiming "asylum" even though the most immigrant friendly groups acknowledge that very few of them have legitimate asylum claims (hint: poverty does not count).
Since they don't get detained, they are released into the United States while they await proceedings in courts that are overloaded with cases. These often take years. Some of them will show up, be denied asylum, and voluntarily leave or be deported.
Many won't show up at all, or, if they do and are ordered deported, the same people claiming that there is no movement to enact open borders will say "Well, they've already been here, living a law abiding life for the past 2 years. Not to mention, they've had children, who are now U.S. citizens! It would be 'cruel' and 'inhumane' to make them leave now, after they've established lives and families here! That's just not who we are. So they should be allowed to stay."
Rinse, wash, repeat. This is de facto open borders whether you are honest enough to admit it or not.
I'm really tired of the gaslighting, outright lies, and bullshit from you people on this issue.
That's because you don't understand what "open borders" really means. It would mean a legal ability for anyone from other countries to come here to live and work without restrictions. No country currently has a deliberately open border policy, because of the security and economic risks involved. Even requiring some form of identification to cross a border, like a passport, would mean that borders are not "open". The U.S. is actually fairly restrictive for people that want to legally immigrate, and obtaining work visas is also restricted.
Your claim of de facto open borders is still an exaggeration, at best. The claims of politicians that "many" asylum seekers aren't showing up for court is not held up when people dig deeper into the reported statistics. For instance, a 50% rate cited by multiple politicians was based on in absentia orders compared to completed cases, and thus wasn't counting those showing up for hearings that didn't get a final decision. When pending cases were considered, 88% of asylum seekers were showing up to hearings, according to one study of the data.
And as for what to do about the issue, scare tactics about floods of illegals don't match what laws those same Republicans implement. Florida politicians, including Gov. DeSantis, will complain bitterly about illegal immigration, but the Florida legislature has again and again failed to pass a requirement for private businesses to use E-Verify. They did pass a requirement for state and local governments to use it, but the estimated 770,000 undocumented workers in Florida aren't getting jobs with the government. They are working at cleaning hotels, harvesting produce, landscaping, construction, etc. The businesses that hire them don't want to use E-Verify, because they would have to pay U.S. citizens and legal immigrants more. Therefore, the politicians that rely on campaign funding from those businesses will continue to tell you how bad illegal immigration is without doing anything effective about it.
You intentionally didn't address the point. What percentage of the people who are ultimately denied asylum end up leaving?
Your screed about DeSantis and E-Verify is completely irrelevant.
Selective enforcement. We've gone from actual prosecutorial discretion to just not enforcing laws. Or prosecuting them in a purely political manner.
Take "sanctuary city". A local government declares it's exempt from a federal law , e.g. immigration, because it disapproves. And folks just go along and basically it is a gigantic gaslight.
Can a devout Christin community declare itself a sanctuary form gay marriage. I mean why not? Ah the Feds selectively enforce based on politics.
Iowa doesn't have control over who crosses its border with Illinois. Therefore, Iowa does not have a democratic government.
Sorry, not convincing.
I am so proud that no American Legacy Media Outlet -- neither the New York Times nor the Washington Post -- compared little Joey Biden with General Grievous. When Lil Joe was choking back his words tonight, nobody -- no person anywhere in the world -- made the comparison. Lil Joey is the pinnacle of fair play!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TiRW_MAa84
Not every claim of democracy is honest. #LetsGoBrandon
Interesting how many commenters here say that far-right people banning books from schools and libraries isn't really banning books because school boards, taken over by these extremists, vote for it.
Democracy thus comes to be seen as a way to enact a series of personal preferences rather than a (mostly) beneficial impersonal mechanism for making collective decisions….
Unsurprisingly, Cowen (and almost all the commenters; the exception being the citation to Federalist 10) conflate government and sovereignty. That delivers the confusion this thread attempts to address, but instead increases.
American constitutionalism, and its successful legacy, owe their effectiveness to a historical insight that those two notions—sovereignty and government—must exist separately, and run differently. They are on contrasting principles, not uniform ones. The transformative American political invention—a popular sovereign with unlimited power to constitute and constrain government—must run democratically. Absent that, American constitutionalism fails.
American government, on the other hand, must run under constraint by the popular sovereign—constraint typically but not exclusively applied by the sovereign's constitutional decree—thus a government not exclusively democratic, but only democratic in specified parts, and otherwise respecting sovereignly ordained personal rights and government bounds which democratic processes are not empowered to disrupt.
Under that system, American constitutionalism delivers simultaneously purely democratic power, and constrained government. That notion has always been hard to grasp, because it seems paradoxical to many.
Since the founding era, abiding awareness of that dual character of American constitutionalism has gradually declined, and in our modern era scarcely any of that awareness still remains influential. That explains much of current confusion about American government, policy choices, and constitutional decision making. It explains the confusion in Cowen's remarks.
It is fine to call Dobbs a bad decision, but in fact the ruling puts abortion law into the hands of state legislatures. If aliens were visiting from Mars, they simply would not see that move as anti-democratic….
That presumes politically obtuse Martians. If the visitors were instead time travelers from the American founding era—named James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, and James Wilson—they would recognize instantly the anti-democratic, and anti-constitutional import of Dobbs. Madison in particular set forth the relevant critique in Federalist 10, and in various other advocacy which became influential to establish the dual character of American governance which I mention above—with a democratically founded sovereign in active charge of a constrained government.
A principal problem with Dobbs is that it presumes to negate by a government diktat (the Supreme Court is a government branch) the national sovereign's previously established extension of a personal right. That should have constrained government, including this Court.
To be sure, that previously-established right was announced by a previous Court, but produced in fact by a sovereign democratic process which had evolved over centuries, beginning historically before the founding, and continuing uninterrupted until Roe v. Wade gave it formal recognition as a government constraint. To the extent that process was resisted, it was resisted throughout national history more by state governments than by the people themselves, as the historical record cited (and selectively un-cited) by Dobbs shows clearly. Note that the so-called, "history and tradition," argument in Dobbs is nothing of the kind, but principally a recitation of state laws—with actual historical practice to the contrary left unaddressed.
Dobbs is thus a constitutionally illegitimate revolt by state government champions against the notion of a democratically-founded national sovereign with superior power. American constitutionalism commands state government allegiance to the national sovereign. Dobbs should have compelled that, but did not.
There are enough on-point examples in Madison's record to enable legitimate inference that he would have pointed all that out instantly. Among the founders, Wilson and Franklin, at least, were similarly minded.
"A principal problem with Dobbs is that it presumes to negate by a government diktat (the Supreme Court is a government branch) the national sovereign's previously established extension of a personal right. That should have constrained government, including this Court."
Wrong, that which was established by nine robes can be overturned by nine robes. See "separate but equal".
That applies alike to Heller and Bruen, right?
Yes it does and Oberkfell also. And I guess we could revisit separate but equal also.
I know such elegant writing takes time and effort, but perhaps you've got a moment to take a few questions.
(1) Could you clarify your method for distinguishing the "national sovereign" Supreme Court decisions "produced in fact by a sovereign democratic process", from the other decisions?
(2) Maybe we could clarify with examples: in which category would you place Heller and Citizens United?
(3) Generally, we recognize people who toss around the word "sovereign" a lot as cranks who believe it's a magic word that wins arguments, frees them from income tax, ends debate on immigration policy, etc. How do you feel about those people?
ducksalad, thanks for your questions.
1. American popular sovereignty is by definition small-d democratic. Each citizen has an equal influence to wield. To say that a Supreme Court decision was dictated by a sovereign demand is closely akin to acknowledging an overwhelmingly influential role for history and tradition in the Court's analysis. Any powerful public consensus maintained for at least many decades is a candidate for that kind of regard. Another example—in addition to the public support for a right to privacy generally, and for access to abortion specifically—is the right which exists now to use of a gun for self-defense—a right almost certainly omitted on purpose from the 2A by the founders.
2. The notion of an argument from history and tradition is well justified. It is a mistake, however, to suppose such an argument must be orginalist, and obviously also a mistake to get the history and tradition wrong as a matter of historical analysis. You have to take the relevant historical interval whole, and present the findings without cherry-picking the arguments. You need to apply historical methods which would pass muster among professional historians. Neither Heller nor Citizens United pass that test. In Heller the quality of the historical analysis was wretched. That does not necessarily mean Heller could not be justified historically, on the basis of post-founding era history. It cannot be justified historically as originalist. The founding era historical facts are almost entirely against it.
It had not occurred to me to question whether Citizens United was historically justified. It strikes me as the kind of SCOTUS decision we get more commonly, derived from reasoning related to legislation, precedent, and in its case, a particularly egregious mistaken assertion of fact by the Court. It seems without any especially coherent basis in the historical record, and certainly without the kind of unified and enduring sovereign consensus I mentioned above.
3. The people you mention are accurately regarded as cranks. Nothing in their peculiar conduct or outlandish demands has any connection to the history of this nation. Even less does it engage any theoretical understanding of sovereignty as a political concept.
That theoretical insight began to coalesce in the 17th century, especially in work by Hobbes, Adam Smith, and (I suggest) Spinoza. Such theoretical questions became dominant preoccupations of political discourse in England throughout the turbulent 17th century. In the eighteenth century, two of the Americans I mentioned, Franklin and Wilson, were directly involved in that discourse, via personal involvement in the so-called Scottish Enlightenment. Wilson was born in Scotland and educated at Edinburgh before emigrating to the colonies. Franklin—probably the only person of that era born in American who won intellectual renown in Europe—dined at Hume's home. Madison (and Jefferson) seem to have picked up many of those ideas via interaction with Wilson, by the way. I suggest intellectual ferment centered on questions concerning national sovereignty died out in England and France largely because the founding of the United States, with its revolutionary invention of the notion of popular sovereignty, was accepted in Europe as the answer to the conundrums which kept the debate going.
If you have other questions on this subject, I will answer as best I can. I am not a historian, just someone who got some historical training in college and graduate school, and took an interest in this topic much later.
"Recognizing that democracy isn't inherently good and that not all evil and harmful policies are anti-democratic doesn't by itself tell us how much democracy should be constrained and in what way."
This is the key point; democracy isn't good or bad the same way a hammer isn't good or bad.
It's simply a tool that can be used in a good or bad way.
So where Jerry B asked above if "Democracy" enabled slavery, it wasn't "Democracy" it was the user(s), i.e., voters, who abused "Democracy" for an evil purpose.
Just like using a hammer to build a house or to murder someone.
If we had Plato's Philosopher King, we wouldn't need democracy.
Plato argued that the ideal state – one which ensured the maximum possible happiness for all its citizens – could only be brought into being by a ruler possessed of absolute knowledge, obtained through philosophical study.
Democracy is an example of self-determination, albeit unavoidably combined with giving people power over each other. The alternative is that people don't even have power over themselves. So I don't agree that there is no inherent good in democracy.
As for Plato, the man was a fascist, as Bertrand Russell famously said. Let's not pretend that he knew anything about democracy.
Oh, Plato knew democracy, they way the Athenians practiced it.
He hated it and wanted to adopt a Spartan style of autocracy, except that with the philosophers on top (because he could never make it in actual Sparta, thanks to his foot).
Our nation is great because it is free, not because it is a democracy.
Democracy is the servant of freedom, not its master. Remember that democracy is just an abstraction of might makes right.
Politicians talk much about democracy, because that is their power growth, and much less about freedom, because it means freedom from their control.
Not arguing but what makes our nation free (freer?), and why is it different than any other nation?
Good question.
I think having had a frontier for so long was helpful. A pressure valve helps keep the pressure in society low, and government can only get so obnoxious when people are able to leave, and take their taxes with them. When governments don't need a productive economy and happy citizens to be funded, things get ugly. The natural resource curse.
The natural resource doesn't need to be an actual resource, just access to taxes raised elsewhere will have the same effect. Foreign aid, for example. Or revenue sharing.
Then you need a diversified economy, and a society with lots of alternate power centers that can resist if government gets aggressive.
A lot of countries that try democracy and fail have very simple economies, a shortage of alternate power centers, and some version of the natural resource curse.
The only thing really keeping us afloat right now is that we are the reserve currency, so we can print money and basically trade those printed dollars for actual goods and services from overseas. Once that charade falls apart, we'll have to actually return to a productive economy again.
government can only get so obnoxious when people are able to leave
From lots of other places people came to the US.
A lot of countries that try democracy and fail have very simple economies, a shortage of alternate power centers, and some version of the natural resource curse.
And a lot of other failed democracies don't.
A lot? That's exaggerating, I think. A few.
That depends on how far back you go. If you want to count all failed democracies since, say, World War I (and why wouldn't you?), you end up with a long long list of diversified economies, large and small countries, with and without natural resources. From Republican China to Weimar Germany to pre-Mussolini Italy to Republican Spain and the First Brazilian Republic. Not a resource curse in sight.
So we're free because of geo-political status.
That's Mathis (IIRC), who described geography as a major factor in a nation's ability to be secure and successful.
Some geographical reasons we're so immensely successful are because:
We have warm water ports to both oceans (trade)
Long, inland, navigational rivers (trade)
Borders with friendly nations (security)
Huge areas for farming, ranching, fishing, etc., i.e., able to feed the nation (economy)
Large deposits of potential energy, e.g., oil, coal, natural gas, dams, wind, solar (economy)
Only the Rockies are a hinderance to easy transcontinental transportation (economy)
The reason for every difference between countries is ultimately "geography". Every other explanation just results in another "why?"
I dunno. Haiti and the Dominican Republic have pretty similar geography but rather different outcomes.
I'm also not sure that the outcome between Rome and Carthage, say, was determined by geography.
The only other explanation that stops any further questions is "chance".
In the case of Haiti: Why did the French end up with the western half of the island? Why were the French so keen to prevent Haitian independence in the first place? There are many more questions like that, and the answer to any number of them may well be "geography".
As for Rome and Carthage, the initial "geography" is that Rome won the fight out of an area full of warring tribes, while Carthage was the USA of this story in that they didn't have any local enemies back home that they needed to worry about. That got the Romans a large and well-trained infantry full of sociis, and the Carthaginians a strong navy. Geography.
And yet the Carthaginian army that was defeated at Zama had more infantry than the Roman one.
Scipio Africanus may be one of the greatest generals of all time. If he had been killed as a young soldier, those wars would probably have ended differently. Replace Marlborough and Eugene and those campaigns would have turned out differently. If US Grant had died young of a fever, I wouldn't bet that the Union would have won the civil war. One of Hitler's cronies was shot by his side when the police opened fire during the Putsch (Hitler hid behind the body). If those bullets had hit Hitler instead, the middle of the 1900's would have played out rather differently.
Etc, etc. Chance does play a big role. Geography surely matters - if England hadn't been an island, or if Poland had been one, they would have very different histories. But history isn't a deterministic function of geography.
Sure. Now explain Switzerland. Which has none of those things.
I (and Mathis) didn't say that's the only way.
Obviously Switzerland found another way; strict neutrality, unique banking system, Alps which prevent invasion, etc.
Since at least the beginning of the 18th century, Geneva had become a favoured destination of French royalty and other European elites seeking discreet havens to stash their wealth, and in 1713, Swiss government authorities announced laws prohibiting bankers from giving out information about their customers. Thus began a powerful culture of silence and secrecy that went on to become the defining feature of Swiss banking.
In 1934, Switzerland passed the Federal Act on Banks and Savings Banks, commonly known as the Banking Law of 1934 or the Swiss Banking Act. The best known part of the law, Article 47, made it a crime to reveal details or information of customers to almost anyone — including the government — without their consent and in the absence of a criminal complaint. Violators can get five years in prison; Article 47 lies at the heart of some of the most stringent banking secrecy laws anywhere.
As wealth became easily mobile across international borders, the safety and stability of Swiss banks, located in a peaceful, politically neutral country committed to discretion, presented an irresistable attraction for the super rich and others who did not want to answer questions about sources of their wealth.
Swiss bank accounts are attractive to depositors because they combine low levels of risk with very high levels of privacy. The Swiss economy is extremely stable, and the banks are run at very high levels of professionalism. (Indian Express)
Our nation is great because it is free, not because it is a democracy.
Our nation is great because it is government by the people, government of the people, government for the people.
It is also great because it is free.
Liberty is great. Thinking it is the *only* good thing is simplistic.
Simplistic? In the VC comments section? Surely not?
Authoritarianism might get you Singapore, Taiwan, or South Korea, but it is also what gets you an invasion of Russia in the winter. Democracy makes both very good and very bad outcomes more difficult.
Is it your opinion that Singapore is a "very good" outcome?
It's all a question of which things you care about more or less. The three examples I picked are all Asian cases of strong development. Singapore now has a higher HDI than the US: https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI
But, for sure, there's more to life than development.
My parents visited and raved about how good it was: safe, prosperous, modern, no panhandlers or pushy people bothering them.
However, after four or five days they did decide to come home anyway.
You're still pretending the HDI measures something meaningful?
Look, when you pick an arbitrary measure made up out of whole cloth by a single academic to weight the things he felt "mattered", you are making an argument about anything - you're just repeating a old guy's opinion.
It's exactly as meaningful as citing Trump's views on other countries, and however silly you are, even you wouldn't just take his word for that.
You're still pretending the HDI measures something meaningful?
Now do GDP.
We're not a democracy so? And for good reason.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/01/19/the-u-s-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy/
Democrats' idea of "democracy" is "Vote for me and I'll give you free shit."
Hmmm...
Not Everything Bad is "Anti-Democratic" - and that which is Democratic isn't Always Good
OK, and now for the counter-point:
Everything Bad is "Anti-Democratic" - and that which is Democratic is Always Good
Wait, you mean there is none? That's because no one holds the position the author is arguing against. That puts this in a category called The Obvious Profundity.
That's typically something pretty much everyone already knows but someone believes is a unique insight and, since only he is perceptive enough to recognize it, is compelled to announce to the world.
Ilya Somen has occasionally exhibited this outlook before but I don't recall quite this blatant of an example. And I don't blame his source (Tom Cowen), who is more careful to note this is a tendency, not a principle.
But the "conceptual confusion" of the final paragraph, which the headline perfectly summarizes, is all Ilya:
Every accusation you make is a confession.
I've already told you that if you climb into the gutter I'm not ashamed to, as the saying goes, "meet you where you are."
I know a gal who lives on the hill
She won't do it but yo mama will.
Right, like Obama was simultaneously a Muslim and a Marxist.
I don’t think he is joking.
It was a joke. A good one.
Comedy (like much art) works mostly when it involves an underlying element of truth.
That may be why the liberal-libertarian, Democratic mainstream dominates the world of comedians, screenwriters, directors, actors, movies, television, etc. and Republicans must settle for a ragtag bunch of fourth-stringers.
(The underlying point here is that our vestigial bigots -- racists, gay-bashers, misogynists, immigrant-haters, etc. -- strongly tend toward being Republicans and conseratives.)