The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Cloudflare Says Its Online Security Services Won't Be Canceled Based on a Site's Ideology
"Just as the telephone company doesn't terminate your line if you say awful, racist, bigoted things, we have concluded ... that turning off security services because we think what you publish is despicable is the wrong policy. To be clear, just because we did it in a limited set of cases before doesn't mean we were right when we did. Or that we will ever do it again."
Posted by Cloudflare yesterday; I think this is the right decision, in part for reasons I sketch in my Reverse Spiderman Principle article (and see also this Twitter thread from Daphne Keller (Stanford)):
Giving everyone the ability to sign up for our services online also reflects our view that cyberattacks not only should not be used for silencing vulnerable groups, but are not the appropriate mechanism for addressing problematic content online. We believe cyberattacks, in any form, should be relegated to the dustbin of history.
The decision to provide security tools so widely has meant that we've had to think carefully about when, or if, we ever terminate access to those services. We recognized that we needed to think through what the effect of a termination would be, and whether there was any way to set standards that could be applied in a fair, transparent and non-discriminatory way, consistent with human rights principles.
This is true not just for the content where a complaint may be filed but also for the precedent the takedown sets. Our conclusion — informed by all of the many conversations we have had and the thoughtful discussion in the broader community — is that voluntarily terminating access to services that protect against cyberattack is not the correct approach.
Avoiding Abuse of Power
Some argue that we should terminate these services to content we find reprehensible so that others can launch attacks to knock it offline. That is the equivalent argument in the physical world that the fire department shouldn't respond to fires in the homes of people who do not possess sufficient moral character. Both in the physical world and online, that is a dangerous precedent, and one that is over the long term most likely to disproportionately harm vulnerable and marginalized communities.
Today, more than 20 percent of the web uses Cloudflare's security services. When considering our policies we need to be mindful of the impact we have and precedent we set for the Internet as a whole. Terminating security services for content that our team personally feels is disgusting and immoral would be the popular choice. But, in the long term, such choices make it more difficult to protect content that supports oppressed and marginalized voices against attacks.
Refining our policy based on what we've learned
This isn't hypothetical. Thousands of times per day we receive calls that we terminate security services based on content that someone reports as offensive. Most of these don't make news. Most of the time these decisions don't conflict with our moral views. Yet two times in the past we decided to terminate content from our security services because we found it reprehensible. In 2017, we terminated the neo-Nazi troll site The Daily Stormer. And in 2019, we terminated the conspiracy theory forum 8chan.
In a deeply troubling response, after both terminations we saw a dramatic increase in authoritarian regimes attempting to have us terminate security services for human rights organizations — often citing the language from our own justification back to us.
Since those decisions, we have had significant discussions with policy makers worldwide. From those discussions we concluded that the power to terminate security services for the sites was not a power Cloudflare should hold. Not because the content of those sites wasn't abhorrent — it was — but because security services most closely resemble Internet utilities.
Just as the telephone company doesn't terminate your line if you say awful, racist, bigoted things, we have concluded in consultation with politicians, policy makers, and experts that turning off security services because we think what you publish is despicable is the wrong policy. To be clear, just because we did it in a limited set of cases before doesn't mean we were right when we did. Or that we will ever do it again….
Regulatory realities
Our policies also respond to regulatory realities. Internet content regulation laws passed over the last five years around the world have largely drawn a line between services that host content and those that provide security and conduit services. Even when these regulations impose obligations on platforms or hosts to moderate content, they exempt security and conduit services from playing the role of moderator without legal process. This is sensible regulation borne of a thorough regulatory process.
Our policies follow this well-considered regulatory guidance. We prevent security services from being used by sanctioned organizations and individuals. We also terminate security services for content which is illegal in the United States — where Cloudflare is headquartered. This includes Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) as well as content subject to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA). But, otherwise, we believe that cyberattacks are something that everyone should be free of. Even if we fundamentally disagree with the content.
In respect of the rule of law and due process, we follow legal process controlling security services. We will restrict content in geographies where we have received legal orders to do so. For instance, if a court in a country prohibits access to certain content, then, following that court's order, we generally will restrict access to that content in that country. That, in many cases, will limit the ability for the content to be accessed in the country. However, we recognize that just because content is illegal in one jurisdiction does not make it illegal in another, so we narrowly tailor these restrictions to align with the jurisdiction of the court or legal authority.
While we follow legal process, we also believe that transparency is critically important. To that end, wherever these content restrictions are imposed, we attempt to link to the particular legal order that required the content be restricted. This transparency is necessary for people to participate in the legal and legislative process. We find it deeply troubling when ISPs comply with court orders by invisibly blackholing content — not giving those who try to access it any idea of what legal regime prohibits it. Speech can be curtailed by law, but proper application of the Rule of Law requires whoever curtails it to be transparent about why they have.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Hopefully not the last provider of services to adopt this approach.
Just as the telephone company
Wow. Compliments. Finally.
This sounds like a good decision.
But it also seems like one that aligns with economic incentives. If Cloudflare were to use denial of its services to censor the web, it would have to spend a lot of money to monitor content. So, there is an economic incentive not to do so.
I remember when Google shopping decided they would no longer show firearm results, even ones which were from dealers, on the made-up grounds that they didn't want to facilitate private transactions which bypassed dealers. Once you start letting politics govern your search results, they are no longer reliable. How many other politically incorrect results did they not tell us they were skipping? How many were misclassified that even they did not know about? How much did all that effort cost them?
Life is a lot simpler when you stick to real principles, not principle-of-the-day. I wonder how much stress these days is from so many people putting feelz ahead of principles all day long.
Yeah, Google is a ridiculous company. It has gotten extremely political, not to mention fat. This is one of the bad side effects when a single company captures a disproportionate share of a particular market. There is no longer sufficient incentive for creativity and efficiency, but plenty of resources to be heavy-handed, clumsy, and bureaucratic.
But it won't last. It is short-term lucrative, long-term not so. I don't use google any more, partly from not knowing how complete or accurate or fair their search results are, partly to give others a chance. I've tried duck duck go, quit when it turned out they lied about keeping search results secrets. Currently using neeva, occasionally comparing with duck duck go and google, and only found one or two where google found different results which were not necessarily better.
Google's biggest problem is themselves. That mindset which says they have a market lock and can diddle the product, leads to diddling the product, a contempt for customers and competitors, wasting resources elsewhere, and an opening for competitors. It is a universal outcome.
I’d like to believe but they’ve dominated for 20+ years and have now captured the Establishment, securing protection from would be competitors.
"But it also seems like one that aligns with economic incentives"
Econmic incentives are what drive many good decisions.
" I think this is the right decision "
Bigots have a reliable friend.
Your desire to curtail communication you don’t like isn’t pure.
I think you are Exhibit A for why people can’t be trusted to engage in censorship. You think everything you disagree with is bigotry.
In any case, the answer to logical fallacies is dialogue not censorship. Dialogue can actually change minds.
I repeatedly state that bigots have rights, too.
But not the right to avoid being recognized as bigots.
The censor around here is Prof. Volokh. He has censored me repeatedly. Which is his right. Hypocritical, partisan, viewpoint-driven, selective censors have rights, too. Especially at their websites. His playground, his rules.
If you think you are helping Prof. Volokh, I doubt he agrees.
Do you think your comments about bigots and bigotry have anything to do with either Cloudflare's action here or Prof. Volokh?
Because everyone else, as far as I can tell, thinks it's just your usual delusional/obsessive namecalling nonsense.
Be better. Not that you can.
Prof. Volokh is sticking up for the bigots with respect to the Cloudfare issue (involving Cloudfare's decisions and conduct with respect to 'awful, racist, bigoted' content). Do you genuinely fail to recognize the relevance?
Which -- standing with the right-wing bigots -- is as predictable as this white, male, conservative blog using a vile racial slur every few weeks, just to keep the right-wing fans suitably lathered and to signal what this blog is about.
Try to keep those gloves up, Sigivald, or this is not going to be a very sporting exhibition.
Your argument that anyone advocating for a liberal approach to freedom when that freedom might be used in an undesirable way also endorses the undesirable thing is a complete non sequitor.
The ACLU famously defended the right of a neo-Nazi group to march in Skokie. Not because they liked neo-Nazi groups, but because they wanted to defend a constitutional right. Here, there is no constitutional right implicated, but what is implicated is whether speech should be de facto censored by something that one could think of as a utility. In no way does believing that private censorship is a mistake in this context does that imply agreement with what people might say.
Your use of the words "white, male, and conservatives" as terms of abuse is also ridiculous.
Overall, I believe you could actually contribute to the discussion if you took a different approach. To be honest, I rarely learn anything from what you write, because it is always the same thing over and over again. Usually invective, rarely informative. I am sure you are a more interesting person underneath all this. If you want to introduce that more interesting person, feel free.
Defending the rights of Nazis to march and the rights of online horrors to stalk, harass, doxx and SWAT are rather different things. Marching Nazis - yeah, they're offensive and repulsive but you can always yell at them, well, until there are enough of them to make yelling at them dangerous. All those other things Cloudfare is bravely defending with their bland corporate press release, and the elephant in the room Volokh is benignly ignoring, are crimes.
If they are in fact crimes, then they should be prosecuted, not merely deplatformed.
If, on the other hand, you don't have enough evidence to prosecute, you also don't have enough evidence to deplatform. Deal with it.
Also, if you ignore it and pretend it isn't happening and lie about how these crimes are just 'views.'
If you know about these criminal things, why have you not reported them youself? To the authorities, not to Cloudflare.
Assume for a moment that the people affected have reported to authorities, and that nothing, or very little, has happened, and the activites continue.
re: "Assume for a moment..."
Then one of the following must be true:
- the prosecution is corrupt - in which case you have far larger problems to worry about than one abusive group
- the case is not as strong as you claim.
- the case is strong but going slowly - in which case, be patient. As the frustrating old saw goes, "The wheels of justice grind slowly."
In none of these scenarios is vigilantism justified.
Or law enforcement is simply not up to or unwilling to perform the task of protecting people from this kind of behaviour or for prosecuting the perpetrators, which leaves the victims exposed and vulenrable and subjected to intensified attackes if they're brave enough to go public. But since this is the major issue, its complete absence from Cloudfare's statement, and from Volokh's endorsement of that statement, in the main article, and commenters insisting on sidelining or dismissing it when raised, amounts to outright deception. It's not 'ideology' at issue.
the rights of online horrors to stalk, harass, doxx and SWAT are rather different things.
Then, why are you threatened by a security company that purports to want to prevent people from doing such things? Is it because stalking, harassing, doxxing and SWATing the people you don't like is totally ok?
Because they are no preventing people from doing these things, they're protecting the perpetrators.
" Here, there is no constitutional right implicated, but what is implicated is whether speech should be de facto censored by something that one could think of as a utility. "
Any comment on the Volokh Conspiracy's repeated, viewpoint-driven, partisan censorship of me?
If you are not familiar with the record, I was -- still am -- forbidden to use "sl_ck-j_wed" to describe conservatives. A parody screen name -- Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland -- was banned for making fun of conservatives a bit too deftly for the proprietor's taste. There are other examples, but those should suffice here.
(Conservative commenters, meanwhile, have without objection by the Volokh Conspiracy's Censorship Board called for me and other liberals, including Democratic judges, to be (1) shot in the face as we opened doors, (2) gassed, (3) raped, (4) placed face-down in landfills, (5) sent to Zylkon showers, (6) lined up and shot, and the like.)
I use "white, male, conservative" because (1) it is accurate and (2) I believe it provides important context with respect to plenty of this blog's content.
Regarding "I rarely learn anything from what you write, because it is always the same thing over and over again," that describes my contributions because it describes the blog content to which I respond.
Your efforts to defend this hypocritical, censorious, right-wing blog seem lame, perhaps because you are unfamiliar with this blog's record.
Rev:
How you respond to the blog is your choice. I am just saying, I would be interested in reading genuine opinions and arguments from you if you wanted to share.
Not everything has to be insults 24/7. But that is up to you. This is just my preference. You do you.
Your teasing of bigots is appreciated, but I have said repeatedly the value in the First Amendment isn't that there's value in sound waves barfed from the mouths of every lice-ridden, monkeypoxxed yokel.
The value is in denying dictator-wannabees their greatest golf club in the bag of tyrant tools.
The left, and I use this term sadly, now is actively engaged in a campaign to illegalize harsh and harrassing statements.
I brought this up last year when a "revisiting" of the "marketplace of ideas" seemed odd to me, so I predicted it was not some re-iteration of committment to free speech, but a first attempt at censorship, real government censorship, by claiming some ideas were of no value, and so may be censored.
Sure enough, a few weeks later, Radiolab hosted such a debate, where one side concluded exactly that. That government should illegalize certain ideas because they were worthless.
So to hell with those who want to censor for any reason. Let's dig a hole by an apricot tree, and all those who think so can jump in and I will cover you up, so your organic molecules can be of some value, you actively foolish ones whistling past the graveyard.
People keep saying this about 'the left' yet it's the right that's out to ban 'CRT' from education, a vague grab-bag of whatever they don't like, and remove anything LGTBQ related from schools and libraries under the pretext of 'grooming.' These are laws and measures and policies enacted, peaople fired, books removed, textbooks selected, teachers and librarians threatened, libraries closed. What the fuck has 'the left' done? Complained forcefully to Cloudfare that one of the sites they service routinely sends SWAT teams to the homes of people they don't like? What an equivalence!
Most of the left complaining about how horrible views are being platformed are basically the equivalent of you and your hole by the apricot tree where people you don't like should be figuratively buried.
" So to hell with those who want to censor for any reason. Let's dig a hole . . . "
How large a hole do you have in mind? The conservative schools are going to occupy a substantial volume in there.
Never happened.
For someone who is so "censored" he sure is all over these threads, usually sharing invective rather than insight.
There is apparently some desire to be a victim. I find it amusing how he insults this blog constantly, but is somehow addicted to it. I guess some crack addicts hate crack.
Why engage him?
This is what I read from him:
"Comment hidden because this user is muted. Unmute
Show username"
I recommend it.
Backwater bigots who never accomplished much with their law degrees seem to think little of me.
Also non-backwater, non-bigots with degrees in something other than law think very little of you--when they think of you at all.
Your rote regurgitation of the same tired ad hominem attacks is tedious and adds nothing.
How many different angles does the Volokh Conspiracy trot out in its incessant nipping at the ankles and heels of its betters?
A half-dozen? Maybe eight? Do you ever tire of the polemical monotony?
Or are you just happy to find a few law professors who side with the right-wing (losing) side of the American cultural divide?
This concept of “betters” that you use all the time. Such crazy talk.
There are winners and losers in America.
Better and worse. Contributors and heroes. Stains and drains.
Clingers hardest hit.
You are delusional. The entire idea is anti-American.
" Never happened. "
You lie. I have provided the record, repeatedly. Prof. Volokh never questions the point because he knows I have the emails.
If I am lying, Prof. Volokh, please vindicate Mr. Nieporent. Otherwise, he's just another lying wingnut, flailing to try to make his stale, ugly thinking competitive at the modern American marketplace of ideas.
As a lawyer, you should know better, Mr. Nieporent. Lying to defend your right-wing allies should be beneath you. But I know it is tough out there for those on the bigoted, poorly educated, obsolete, losing side of the cultural divide.
Are you going to leave your faithful servant, Mr. Nieporent, hanging like this, Prof. Volokh?
(Just kidding. I know the record ties your hands. So Mr. Nieporent and his lies must continue to hang.)
Mr. Nieporent and his lies still dangle as Prof. Volokh just watches . . .
In the same way that the Kraken team provided the proof of election fraud.
Poorly played, Mr. Nieportent . . . at least, in the reality-based world.
Prof. Volokh has publicly acknowledged censoring me, more than once, at this blog. He nearly boasted about it at least once, indicating he would unapologetically continue to enforce civility standards when I used vulgar puns, a parody account, and mean words about conservatives.
Privately, he instructed me to stop using the terms "sl_ck-j_wed" and "sl_ck-j_w" by email logged at 1:02 a.m. on April 26, 2019. He ascribed that censorship to "trying to promote something of a civil conversation." (When I asked Prof. Volokh how his ostensible civility standard squared with then-recent comments calling for me and other liberals to be placed "face-down and lifeless in landfills," Prof. Volokh did not respond.)
More recently, he forbade me to use the term "p_ssy" to describe a conservative. That email logged at 2:00 a.m. on June 9, 2021.
After Prof. Volokh vanished some comments by Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland and blocked additional comments, he reinstated my Arthur Kirkland posting privileges while banning Artie Ray. The email censoring Artie Ray with prejudice arrived at 6:02 p.m. on October 6, 2010.
After Prof. Volokh removed several comments that described conservative defenders of abusive policing as "c_p s_ccors," he instructed me on March 2, 2014 to stop using that term.
I will not search for Prof. Volokh's public admissions of his censorship for you, Mr. Nieporent. That research seems more the work of an associate than of a partner.
With respect to the private admonitions, I encourage Prof. Volokh to correct the record if I have misstated any of his emailed instructions on censorship. Those messages were sent from a UCLA account, so I doubt the development of any disputes concerning provenance. I therefore am confident my descriptions of events will stand.
I also am confident Prof. Volokh is grateful for your uninformed, partisan sycophancy, Mr. Nieporent, but I would expect him to counsel you not to lie quite so much in a manner so easily refuted.
That seems to have concluded your interest in attempting to defend your statements of falsehood, Mr. Nieporent.
If you apologize, I would accept that apology.
At 12:14 p.m. on June 24, 2013, Arthur Kirkland emailed me and confessed to his involvement in the Sandy Hook shooting.
And at 6:02 a.m. on November 14, 2021, Arthur Kirkland sent me an email admitting that he was actually a paid agent of James O'Keefe trying to make liberals look bad.
Also, on April 19, 2020 at 4:21 p.m., Arthur Kirkland told me that he had helped Hillary Clinton assassinate Antonin Scalia.
Wow, it's easy to supply evidence of just about anything if one can just make it up.
I have been asking Prof. Volokh to correct the record -- if I am misstating that record with respect to his censorship -- for years.
He does not. Despite the obvious point that he would love to discredit me (because I highlight his hypocrisy, cowardice, and hackishness in the service of bigotry and backwardness).
I prefer to think that he does not challenge my account because he prefers not to lie (a point at which he diverges from you). Maybe, at least a little, the point that he sent those messages from a UCLA account -- creating a verifiable record -- contributes to his decision not to call me a liar. I think he regrets at least some of the censorship he has imposed, he doesn't like being called out for it, he knows the hypocrisy is a bad look -- but he doesn't call me a liar, and I would like to think he wouldn't do so even if he could get away with it. I am not lying, and he knows it.
You are flailing right-wing loser, Nieporent. And a liar. A shitty liar. And, I would expect to learn, neither a strong lawyer nor an admirable citizen. I therefore look forward to celebrating when you next contribute to American progress by being replaced, like the other bigoted, obsolete, right-wing culture war casualties.
If I am not the rightful King of England, I demand that the soi-disant Queen Elizabeth produce proof to the contrary. If she does not do so by 10:30 p.m., GMT-4, on September 3, 2022, it proves that I am.
You should hope the disciplinary authorities never inquire concerning your repetitive lies, Nieporent.
If you are a licensed lawyer, that is. Maybe you have misappropriated the identity of some poor bastard who couldn't make partner.
If Prof. Volokh would acknowledge error and apologize for censoring me, and rescind the censorship with respect to certain words and with respect to the comedic stylings of Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland, I would accept that apology and have far less reason or occasion to mention his hypocritical mistakes with respect to selective censorship.
But he has not done so, just as he has not challenged my descriptions of his repeated, hypocritical censorship. So it seems important to offer context when Prof. Volokh and his fans climb their highly partisan high horses with respect to censorship and freedom of expression.
Bolshevik style censors have many more "reliable friends."
Disagreement is reeeciss!!!!
Welcome sanity.
This cloud flare service seems much closer to a utility than Facebook or Twitter
Maybe. Is there any reason that you couldn't just use some other service to protect your website? Do they have control over some critical resource that a competitor focused on security can't use?
There are alternatives. However, the alternatives are like bricks in the foundation of the platform. There is no brand accountability, like there is with Facebook and Twitter.
It part of the critical internet infrastructure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Internet_infrastructure
It's not. It's a security service and it has competitors just like Facebook and Twitter.
In most places, utilities do not compete. You only have one landline phone provider that can drop a line to your house. You only have one coax cable TV provider. You only have one electricity provider. Etc. All of these are limited by physical infrastructure and the practicality of having multiple providers cram their pipes and wires into a single area.
Cloudflare is virtual and if you don't want to use them, you can hire a competitor like Amazon or build your own system in-house.
I feel like building your own in-house system would be prohibitively expensive. Isn't scale one of their biggest weapons (hard to DOS something when it's already designed to handle a huge load)?
Pretty much. You need scale to defend against DOS attacks. Some other aspects of their service might not be as reliant on scale.
No. The physical-world equivalent would be the police department announcing that it won't respond to requests for assistance from certain persons or in relation to certain events, creating what in Latin America is called "zona liberada." And guess what? We now see this phenomenon here too (and the courts say it's A-OK!):
https://thenewamerican.com/crushing-dissent-government-gets-vdare-event-canceled-by-withdrawing-police-protection/
Neither analogy is apropos. Both compare the decisions of a private actor to government services the taxpayers all support, without the option not to.
A better analogy would be to private lawyers who choose not to take money from certain types of litigants to represent them. Cloudflare can choose to accept any client no matter how reprehensible, but that's not because they owe a moral duty. Heck, it's not even censorship.
Cloudfare should be commended, but its actions may be too little too late.
It is truly frightening that tonight an American president will speak of "the continued battle for the soul of the nation," openly branding his political betters as threats to democracy and echoing words spoken decades ago: "Since those days of treason, the Almighty has withdrawn his blessing from our nation. Discord and hatred have moved in. Filled with the deepest distress, millions of the best American men and women from all walks of life see the unity of the nation disintegrating in a welter of egotistical political opinions, economic interests, and ideological conflicts. [...] May Almighty God favor our work, shape our will in the right way, bless our vision, and bless us with the trust of our people,"
Lofty words are often portents for pogroms.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/politics/biden-philadelphia-speech.html
My googling suggests that an accurate quote would read "millions of the best *German* men and women", because that is from 1933, not a Biden speech.
Well the NY Times headline is this:
Trump-Led Extremism a Direct Threat to America, Biden Plans to Say in Speech
That's hardly better.
Ahh yes, Biden is as bad as Hitler.
Congrats on becoming parody.
Let's see...Biden is calling roughly half of America fascists. I think the violation of Godwin's law occurred there.
Godwin's law doesn't apply to strawmen or actual fascists.
It's a Law.
You just can't make it up as you go. What's next? The law of gravity doesn't apply to strawmen or fascists?
Of course that actually would make fascism more attractive.
It's not half of America. Maybe 30 percent.
The half-educated, roundly bigoted, childishly superstitious, un-American, Republican 30 percent.
I think he's already as bad as early Hitler. Whether he'll ever be bad as mid or late Hitler is yet to be seen, but that speech last night was not encouraging.
I mean, Hillary had her basked of deplorables, but it really doesn't look like Biden thinks he can stop at just deploring his enemies.
"I think he's already as bad as early Hitler."
Then your judgement is pretty far off.
The Nazis opened their first concentration camp just over a month after Hitler took power:
"On 30 January 1933, Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany...The first camp was Nohra, established on 3 March 1933 in a school...About 70 camps were established in 1933"
I generally think Biden is a terrible president, but if he has been locking up his political opponents in camps for a year and a half without word getting out, I'll have to give him credit for being more effective than I thought.
The only people with any cause for concern, in Biden's speech, are people who are actively trying to subvert election outcomes they don't like and threatening political violence when that doesn't work.
So, you're telling on yourself here. People like you are a threat to the American project.
Oh, come on. The only people with any cause for concern, in Biden's speech, are people he accuses of actively trying to subvert election outcomes.
His declared enemy are "MAGA Republicans"; That's a wildly over-inclusive group if you're talking about election subversion. By a factor of tens of thousands, at least.
Birther Brett proudly stands with MAGA!
'people he accuses'
Oh come on, nobody who's doing it is hiding it, no Republican can get nominated currently if they're not making it part of their platforms.
I'm sorry that the mean president hurt your feelings with his speech. Do we need to find you a safe space where the bad words can't hurt you?
Tells us again about your opinion of Trump's constant branding of the media as "enemies of the people."
Oh... "political betters," right. This is just situational outrage. Bigots don't like being called bigots and fascists don't like being called "semi-fascists."
When Trump called Democrats fascists, these half-educated racists, gullible gay-haters, disaffected misogynists, and can't-keep-up xenophobes cheered.
These Republican losers are losers because they deserve to lose. They have bad ideas, poor judgment, lousy character, substandard education, shambling communities, and did I mention the multifaceted bigotry?
It's also the reason the Volokh Conspirators operate at the disaffected, losing fringe of modern American academia. Their ideas suck and their character isn't great.
Bravo. May cooler heads continue to prevail.
Cloudflare turned of the Daily Stormer, a site with a lot of interesting political commentary. It was terminated purely for political opinions, and not for anything illegal. Let me know when Cloudflare reinstates the site.
You think that, years later, the site is still there exactly as it was behind Cloudflare's security, ready to be turned back on ?
No, the Daily Stormer has lost its domain name and hosting service several times since then. Google seized its domain name, and never gave it back.
Then how can Cloudfare "reinstate" the site?
Cloudflare could service the current host. The site has had to move several times. Cloudflare normally follows its customer to a new host. Currently it uses a domain name registered in Rwanda.
OK, so not really reinstating. But it looks like the current site is on a CDN that specializes in untouchable websites and thus isn't going to bow to political/societal pressure. Barring any future issues, I don't know why they'd consider going back to a service that dropped them like a hot potato once and could do so again if their appetite changed down the road.
That you think Nazis have "lots of interesting political comments" is maybe something you should be embarrassed to say. Also, Cloudflare is not a hosting company and cannot "turn off" a website.
Yeah, the same way a fire department can't burn down a house, just withdraw it's protection and drop the neighborhood arsonist a note.
Sounds more like a freedom of association issue.
They are not really Nazis, although they joke about it sometimes. Some people are offended by the humor on the site, as well as the political opinions.
"I was only fucking that goat to own the libs!"
They are really Nazis. Or at least neo-Nazis.
Can someone explain to me what is Cloudflare?
Cloudflare acts as a gateway to many popular web sites, and it very good at blocking denial-of-service attacks.
The best description I've found of their services is here.
The even shorter version is that it's a service you add to your website that protects both the computer that hosts your website and your readers' computers from some attacks.
It's not necessary to run a website.
It has competitors.
The service it provides can be built in-house with some effort.
The vast majority of small-to-medium sized websites don't need it.
Any website covering a controversial topic would benefit from it.
This is really about a site they host, called kiwifarms, whose users regularly doxx, harass, threaten and swat people. Mostly women and LGTBQ people and assorted other right-wing edgleord soft targets, but lately, oddly enough, Marjorie Taylor Greene, if reports are accurate. So focusing on 'reprehensibe views' is disingenuous at best - these are reprehensible acts.
Cloudflare doesn't "host" anything. See above. They provide some intermediary services that protect the computers of the actual host and of the readers of the website.
If you think kiwifarms is evil (they might be - I'd never heard of them before your comment), then you should go after them directly.
Attempting to deplatform them by attacking vendors and service providers sets precedents that will do far more harm in the long run than the kiwifarms people could ever do.
The service providers are being criticised for providing a service to a site that regularly swats people. Regardless of whether you think that is or isn't the correct approach, that's what this is about, and it's weird that nobody wants to acknowledge it.
I don't care about acknowledging it - because even assuming it's true, even if it were literally Hitler, the solution you are advocating sets precedents that are worse than the original problem.
I don't know what principle is being preserved by continuing to provide services to a website that doxxes, harasses and SWATs people.
The "we're not the judge, jury, and executioner" principle?
You think these sites are doing something illegal, there's a way to establish that and sanction it, and it's not companies engaging in shunning.
Is there? How many times does a person have to get SWATed and told authorities can do nothing before a person can appeal to service providers who protect the sites responsible? Ho many people can it happen to, over and over again? How many people driven to suicide, off the internet, into hiding? Is that worse than shnning the site full of the people responsible? If service providers are going to protect that behaviour shouldn't they at least come out and say so, and if Volokh approves, shouldn't he at least say as much?
Every time you've repeated this point, people respond by reminding you that we have laws and a court system which is set up precisely to deal with your scenario.
Since this has been repeated so many times, I have to ask what it is about that answer that you find unacceptable? What is your alternative solution -- that every organization involved in the transmission of information via the Internet just make up their own rules? That hardly seems like a good idea.
My chief point is Cloudfare's ommitting the subject from their statement, Volokh ignoring, and commenters shrugging it off as if it doesn't matter. Most commenters here are happy to denounce the criminal justice system for its failings on a regular basis, and here they are brushing victims of appalling, dangerous behaviour off and into its gentle arms with a shrug.
It's all pipes, and then someone flushes all the toilets at once.
Wasn't that site associated with an amazing amount of violence and murders? Just amongst its own members? Why the fuck would anyone want to host that?
And 4chan was notorious for child porn! Freedoms!
Linking authoritarians calling for dissident sites to be shut down to the shutting down of those two toxic dumps is nice sleight of hand, though, therefore we can't now go and shut down the site that has become a byword for swatting!
Not even 'shut down,' just 'sorry we're not hosting you any more, you vile criminal scum!'
No, the site was not associated with violence and murder. One of its worst offenses was to criticize the woman who was hit and killed by a car in the 2017 Charlottesville protest.
You mean, besides this:
"Payton S. Gendron, the suspect in the 2022 mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, cited The Daily Stormer as having inspired the attack, in addition to 4chan and the writings of New Zealand mass shooter Brenton Tarrant."
Here's a reasonably good article the whole affair: The New Yorker.
These are real neo-nazis attempting to spread the word about Jews and everything else you'd expect from neo-nazis. And, they were so unsubtle about it that they made other, more mainstream white Christian nationalists nervous.
The New Yorker spreads the word about Jews also. And it publishes hate pieces on a regular basis. The article starts with the offensive 2017 comment about the dead woman. You can decide for yourself whether it was in poor taste.
I'm sorry, are you actually suggesting that it was OK for CloudFlare to dump the Daily Stormer in 2017 because of something a person did in 2022?
Remember the group that incited the attempted murder of a Supreme Court justice?.....oh, wait, that was CNN and MSNBC
"Words are violence!!!!!" , said the Very Smart Constitutionalist
Twitter was "associated" with the attempted association of Kavanaugh.
....is this how it works?
Yeah, and twitter STILL has its own Nazi problem which it prefers to ignore.
If you're a Daily Stormer fan, you're a natural at the Volokh Conspiracy.
"Disagreement = Reeecism", said the Reverend
Stick with the Daily Stormer, FreeRepublic, the Crusader, Newsmax, the Volokh Conspiracy, Instapundit, and Gateway Pundit, Troonshine. They suit you.
If CloudFlare was asked to bake a cake for a gay couple, this entire thread would be reversed.
The Volokh Conspiracy would be twisted like a pretzel.
"Asked", or threatened on pain of the entire force of the government shutting down their business?
by providing services in a non-discrimatory manner?
.....Youre a real galaxy brain
Excellent, CloudFlare. Amazon Web Services, why aren't you on board with this, too? And oh, the entire banking and clearinghouse industry. Not to mention the world's ISPs.
All of you are conduits. Infrastructure. Just like the telephone company. Just like the fire department.
I used to run a small, non-profit internet-based media company. We had to face exactly the same kind of question when we got some customers whose content was ... odd, to say the least. What we decided was that what we told people we were selling was media services. Our name wasn't on their content. The only people who knew we were involved in the delivery chain were our own customers.
What we asked ourselves is who were we to pass judgment on content? We had no special expertise. Our name wasn't on it. It was none of our business. Our business was the bits and bytes of delivering media over the wire.
We also reached the same conclusion about relying upon the courts to identify the limits of what content we could publish. If it was against the law for anyone to publish the content, it was against the law for us to do so as well.
I'm glad to see some normalcy and rationality being applied to this critical infrastructure. If we let this go, we will be granting the security state everything it always wanted.
I'm glad to see everyone pretending this isn't about Kiwifarms, a website that regularly doxxes, harasses and SWATs people.
Wait until you hear about this Twitter website
Gosh, what it that?
Take it to a prosecutor, then, and they get a trial.
I agree there.
I bet its victims never thought of that. But I thought your faith in the justice system had been shattered into a million pieces years ago?
Says you.
And there's the problem, see. You want us to be the world's Internet police, but who are we, and how are we qualified to pass judgment? Whose interests do we represent? By what authority? Using what standards? Overseen by what body? Funded with what monies?
We have laws and the courts. That's where we go with issues like the one you are describing. Not to the technicians.
Says a lot of people who have been victimised by it. It's not that hard to find the details, unless you're looking for them in Cloudfare's statement - which is directly realted to complaints about kiwifarms - or Volokh's endorsement, or commenters here who don't want to acknowledge it and who are happy to entrust it to the justice system they've been loudly villifying since Mar A Lago got searched, and long before.
I don't understand who the 'us' and the 'we' is in your comment. Cloudflare is a private company, and it's not doing any policing.
My reading that 'us' and 'we' refer to DaveM's company mentioned in his first post - his company faced the same question about 'customers whose content was ... odd, to say the least' as Cloudflare, i.e. whether DaveM's company should 'police' (in the colloquial sense) their customer's content. And his company decided that they would allow any legal content, and leave the policing (in the governmental sense) to the ... police.
LGBT+: Stop stopping us from doing illegal things!
Cloudflare: No
BLM: Stop stopping us from doing illegal things!
Democrat politicians: Yes
Weird how none of these stories mention Keffals' fart fetish porn or her black market hormone distribution to minors.....
Ah....journalism.
Oh look, a sample.
Wow, rationality from the tech world. How refreshing.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/kiwifarms-blocked/
'...the rhetoric on the Kiwifarms site and specific, targeted threats have escalated over the last 48 hours to the point that we believe there is an unprecedented emergency and immediate threat to human life unlike we have previously seen from Kiwifarms or any other customer before.'
Well, now.
Here is an update Prof. Volokh likely will be disinclined to share unless he can come up with some twist that uses it to nip at the ankles of strong, mainstream America to flatter disaffected, bigoted, faux libertarian Republicans.
Carry on, un-American clingers.
Bad argument. You can't persuade people you don't talk to.
Instead of reacting emotionally, you can respond logically. Analyze why the person has adopted the point of view they have.
Admittedly, it is a lot of work and it is no one's job in particular. But being lazy ("don't associate") isn't actually a morally a superior choice.
You shouldn't call people assholes just because you disagree with them, and want to treat them badly.
one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist
How does treating them like any other customer "enable" them?
These right-wingers are trying their best with the limited substance and abilities they possess. They can't afford consistency and principle -- they're barely operating at subsistence level.
"Not providing services based on one's Constitutional freedom = providing services!" said the Kweeen
The same way selling guns to gang members like any other customer enables gang violence. Are you trolling?
The logical response to people who doxx, stalk, harass, threaten and swat is to shut them the fuck down and report them to the police.
" You can't persuade people you don't talk to. "
You can't reason with bigotry, superstition, or belligerent ignorance. It is pointless to try, perhaps counterproductive at the practical level. The point is that better Americans should focus on continuing to win the culture war, shaping our national progress over the objections and efforts of conservatives. This has been working quite well for more than a half-century. Why change something that has been improving our society in such important ways?
I'm not trying to persuade half-educated racists, superstitious gay-bashers, xenophobic bigots, obsolete misogynists, disaffected clingers, and the other core elements of the current Republican-conservative electoral coalition. I am trying to continue to defeat them in the shaping of American progress.
Are you trolling? That's an absurd comparison. In what way does providing cybersecurity services enable someone to commit acts of life-threatening violence upon another?
Gang members wear distinctive clothing to enable their gang activities. Should all clothing stores blackball them?
Gang members use cell phones to enable their gang activities. Should all cell providers blackball them?
Etc.
Neo Nazis are assholes. I disagree with them. I don't want to talk to them. I don't want them to feel welcome in civil society.
Neo Nazis use their internet resources to organize violent activities (See: Charlottesville "Unity the Right" as an example.) Protecting those internet services from third party harassment so that the Neo Nazis can go on to use that service to assist in harassing others is enabling.
Seriously... if Cloudflare was asked to bake them a cake, conservatives would defend their right to refuse service until blue in the face.
So if you're taking persuasion off the table, what's the end game for these folks in your mind?
I've taken futility off the table. But their life choices used to be limited to failed attempts at election (see: David Duke) but now appear to include being elected President (see: Trump.) With over half of the Republican party backing their larger perspective these days, what could I possibly do to convince them that their ideology is a bad thing? The last President said they were "good people."
As I'm not an expert on cults and violent political ideologies, I can only guess that most of them outgrow most of this stuff when they get married and have kids, the rest probably end up in jail or rot in loneliness as the angry old guy with the swastika tattoo no one wants to talk to. But if I knew how to convince them that angry, authoritarian ideologies were destructive, evil, and damaged society, I would be making a ton of cash on the news circuit as someone with a solution to the biggest problem facing our country today. Imagine a world where someone like Romney could get elected and Trump wouldn't have made it past the chuckle phase.
Nothing says "freedom fighter" like advocating for genocide.
Unite the Right? You mean the gathering that was authorized pursuant to a valid court order?
Despicable bigots and worthless right-wing asswipes have rights, too.
Including the right to be flattered at and courted by a white, male, conservative blog with a vanishingly scant academic veneer.
The saying isn't literal. You are supposed to think about it.
It's impossible to believe you expect to be taken seriously when you label Trump a Neo Nazi. Carry on.
David Duke endorsed Hillary Clinton.......
The losers usually complain about the winners' actions.
Who cares? Let them whimper.
CloudFlare isn't a "platform". It is infrastructure, a conduit. No one posts content "on" CloudFlare. It acts as a security gateway on the envelope containing the content, not the contents of the envelope.
Don't want to get too deep in the weeds here, but the Internet runs on a 7-layer protocol. Each layer is responsible for a different part of the job of delivering data. Only the very last layer in the chain contains the human-consumable content. The layers below it have no idea what the content is. Those layers don't need to know. A packet is a packet.
Please protect us from different ideas!!!!!!
You are the perfect example of someone who cannot be persuaded, Reverend.
You despise those who disagree.
I don't like racists.
I don't like gay-bashers and have no use for jerks who claim bigotry is improved by a coating of childish superstition.
I don't like misogynists.
I don't like immigrant-haters.
I don't like disaffected, antisocial clingers.
I don't like un-American insurrectionists.
I don't like delusional liars or virus-flouting jerks.
This seems to bother this blog's fans.
How we all laughed.