The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Court Rejects Suit by Volunteer Yale Psych Professor Fired for Public Diagnosis of Trump and Alan Dershowitz
"In January 2020, you called for 'an involuntary evaluation' of President Trump, and you said, 'I am beginning to believe a mental health hold ... will become inevitable.' That same month, you publicly suggested that President Trump, Rudolph Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz had a 'shared psychosis.'"
Lee v. Yale Univ., decided today by Judge Sarah Merriam (D. Conn.), was brought by Dr. Bandy Lee, a volunteer (uncompensated) clinical professor in the Yale School of Medicine's Law and Psychiatry Division. (This volunteer service required her to "participate in four hours of student-related, teaching, or supervisory activities per week. These activities could be satisfied through teaching a course, lectures, through advising students in connection with their thesis preparation, supervising residents, participating in seminars and grand rounds, engaging in scholarly activity, participating in department administration, and other activities.") She was fired on Sept. 4, 2020 for the following reasons:
[T]he review committee … consider[ed] whether the Department could offer you a continuing teaching role …. The key question in our minds was whether you had the clinical judgment and professionalism to teach trainees key aspects of their profession. Your diagnostic impressions of President Trump and several other public figures and your recommendations for treating President Trump played a role in our discussion. This was not because of the political content of your speech. As you know, the Department and the University publicly defended your academic freedom and your right to express your opinions as a citizen. As detailed below, the Committee's concern was what your diagnoses and treatment recommendations said about your clinical abilities and professionalism.
Since 2017, you have taken the position that you have a "duty to warn" the public that President Trump presents a threat to public safety. The duty to warn derives from the Tarasoff decision and subsequent legal developments, and it applies to clinicians in a treatment relationship with a potentially dangerous person. It has never been applied outside that context. In public comments, you said that President Trump was incapacitated by a psychiatric disorder, and you identified symptoms such as aggressive speech, sexual misconduct, incitement to violence, belief in conspiracies, declining cognitive functioning, and neurological deficits. Initially, you did not identify the disorder causing these supposed symptoms. In December 2019, you said publicly that President Trump exhibited a "pattern of delusions," was "lacking rational decisionmaking capacity," and had "definitive signs of severe pathology" that required "an advanced level of care." In January 2020, you called for "an involuntary evaluation" of President Trump, and you said, "I am beginning to believe a mental health hold … will become inevitable." That same month, you publicly suggested that President Trump, Rudolph Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz had a "shared psychosis."
I want to emphasize that you did not make these statements as a layperson offering a political judgment; you made them explicitly in your professional capacity as a psychiatrist and on the basis of your psychiatric knowledge and judgment. For that reason, the committee decided it was appropriate to consider how these statements reflected your ability to teach trainees.
We began our discussion by asking you to address whether your diagnosis of President Trump and your treatment recommendations should have included a disclaimer regarding limited evidence, whether they adequately reflected the process of differential diagnosis, and whether you applied any recognized standards when you determined on the basis of his public statements that President Trump presented a danger to the public health. Your responses failed to address any of these points.
Our discussion then turned to your statement that President Trump and Mr. Dershowitz had a shared psychosis. You told us that "someone doesn't have to be psychotic in order to have a psychosis;" that your observations had convinced you that the strong emotional bond between President Trump and his followers "is a group phenomenon of shared psychosis;" and that, in the presence of this bond, "the default is that you would expect a shared psychosis." You further claimed that you were misquoted; that, in fact, you had said President Trump and Mr. Dershowitz "may" have a shared psychosis; and that you meant to say that they have a shared delusional disorder. We asked you to explain in detail the basis for this diagnosis, and none of the evidence you offered met the DSM-5 criteria for shared delusional disorder. The committee also noted that you explored no other explanations that might have accounted for the data that led you to your diagnosis.
Following our discussion with you, the committee considered whether the information that you shared with us was relevant to your capacity to teach trainees the core competencies required by the ACGME. We decided that our discussion with you implicated three of the six competencies: medical knowledge, interpersonal and communication skills, and professionalism.
In regard to medical knowledge, the ACGME requires trainees "to demonstrate knowledge about established and evolving biomedical, clinical, and cognate sciences and the application of this knowledge to patient care." Our discussion of your diagnosis of shared psychosis or, as you preferred, shared delusional disorder convinced the committee that you do not adequately understand or choose not to follow current methods for diagnosing psychotic disorders, which are common in the psychiatric practice that our trainees will enter.
In regard to interpersonal communication skills, the ACGME requires trainees "to demonstrate interpersonal and communication skills that result in effective information exchange and teaming with patients, patients' families, and professional associates." In our lengthy discussion with you, you were unable to explain to four trained colleagues the basis of a very serious diagnosis. In addition, you have made many conflicting, confusing, and sometimes inaccurate public statements about psychiatric diagnosis and the profession's duty to warn.
Finally, the ACGME requires trainees "to demonstrate a commitment to carrying out professional responsibilities, adherence to ethical principles, and sensitivity to a diverse patient population." Although the committee does not doubt that you are acting on the basis of your personal moral code, your repeated violations of the APA's Goldwater Rule and your inappropriate transfer of the duty to warn from the treatment setting to national politics raised significant doubts about your understanding of crucial ethical and legal principles in psychiatry.
In light of the above concerns, the Committee concluded that the Department should not seek a new teaching role for you. The Committee report was shared with the Executive Committee of the Department of Psychiatry and discussed at length. Its recommendation, that your teaching duties not be reinstated, was endorsed unanimously by the Executive Committee. In the absence of a formal teaching role, your voluntary appointment lapsed….
The court rejected Lee's breach of contract claim, concluding that there was no "implied contract that Yale would not decline to reappoint plaintiff, regardless of whether it found that plaintiff was no longer qualified for the position, based at least in part on her public statements":
Plaintiff fails to acknowledge, in arguing that she expected her appointment to be effectively automatically renewed, that the Faculty Handbook expressly provides: "The reappointment of persons holding term appointments is not automatic at Yale." As noted elsewhere, plaintiff expressly relies on the Faculty Handbook where she believes it supports her claims, but disregards this express statement of the Faculty Handbook that undermines her claims….
[Yale's] alleged generic expressions of "approval and appreciation" or commendation [for her past work] are insufficient to even suggest a promise of continued appointment, much less support a contractual commitment. Even if the Court were to treat these statements as "favorable performance evaluations" of plaintiff, such "isolated positive feedback" does not support a finding that Yale intended to guarantee plaintiff continued appointment….
Plaintiff's vague assertion that some unspecified provision in the Faculty Handbook creates a right to "academic freedom" is plainly insufficient to show that defendant undertook a contractual commitment to guarantee plaintiff continued reappointment…. And [Yale's] generalized statements of principles are not sufficient to manifest the intent to form a contract for guaranteed reappointment. The parties' course of conduct, the statements made by Yale administrators, the Faculty Handbook, and Yale's policy statements—taken individually or in combination—are, as a matter of law, insufficiently definite to create the contract that plaintiff seeks to enforce. Plaintiff has "pluck[ed] out of context" various statements indicating that she was previously successful in her role, and expressing that Yale values academic freedom. Plaintiff has failed, however, to point to any facts, "which if taken as true, would demonstrate Defendants' intention to be contractually liable to Plaintiff" for declining to reappoint her regardless of whether it found that she was no longer qualified for the position….
This is especially true in light of the express disavowal, in at least two places in the Faculty Handbook, of any guarantee of reappointment. See Doc. #32-6 at 23 ("The reappointment of persons holding term appointments is not automatic at Yale."); ("Faculty members on term appointments do not have a right to reappointment[.]"). It is not reasonable to believe that the other portions of the Faculty Handbook, a few stray supportive remarks, and a history of consistent reappointment somehow negates these express statements of intent by Yale.
And the court rejected plaintiff's claim under the Connecticut private employee free speech statute, which provides,
Any employer … who subjects any employee to discipline or discharge on account of the exercise by such employee of rights guaranteed by the first amendment to the United States Constitution or section 3, 4 or 14 of article first of the Constitution of the state, provided such activity does not substantially or materially interfere with the employee's bona fide job performance or the working relationship between the employee and the employer, shall be liable to such employee for damages caused by such discipline or discharge[.]
But a volunteer such as Lee, the court concluded, doesn't count as an "employee" for purposes of the statute:
To adequately allege remuneration [so as to make someone an employee], a plaintiff must allege "either direct compensation, such as salary or wages, or indirect benefits that are not merely incidental to the activity performed." … [S]uch indirect benefits include "health insurance, vacation, sick pay, a disability pension, survivors' benefits, group life insurance, scholarships for dependents upon death, or other indirect but significant remuneration."
Plaintiff concedes that she "did not receive traditional compensation" from Yale. Nevertheless, plaintiff contends that her "relationship with Defendant yielded substantial tangible and intangible benefits for both parties." Plaintiff asserts that she "was given access to the university's libraries, subscription-based research materials, office space, [and] the university's facilities." She also contends that she was "covered under the Defendant's malpractice insurance" for "her forensic consultations."
These alleged benefits supplied by Yale are insufficient to satisfy the remuneration test. "Unlike a salary, vacation, sick pay, or benefits such as health insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, death benefits, and retirement pension, all of which primarily benefit the employee independently of the employer, the benefits put forward by [plaintiff] … , were merely incidental to the administration of the [defendant's] programs for the benefit of [Yale] at large." …
Plaintiff further alleges that "[t]hrough her association with [Yale], she secured prestigious appointments with domestic and international organizations, received research grants based on her academic affiliation and developed and implemented programs within the Yale School of Medicine." As a result of these grants and appointments, plaintiff alleges that "[a] majority of Dr. Lee's income was derived from her faculty appointment, affiliation, and relationship with Yale." Plaintiff does not allege, however, that this income was received from Yale. Absent such an allegation, plaintiff has alleged only that she received such grants and appointments because Yale provided her with the "vague benefit" of increased "name recognition[.]" Such a benefit is insufficient to satisfy the remuneration requirement. …
Finally, the court rejected some other claims, such as for negligent misrepresentation and "the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing."
Note that the result might well have been different for a paid professor: The Connecticut statute might then have applied, and it would be more likely (I expect) that the university's contract with the professor (tenured or even pretenured but tenure-track) would indeed provide some protections for academic freedom.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
So to invoke the state-law protections, every volunteer at Yale should request a nominal $50/week salary.
They can request it all they like.
I have seen many purported medical professionals offering "diagnoses" of the former president, naturally without the benefit of a clinical context. This is the first time I have seen one held accountable in any way, though, so it was a refreshing read.
Docs: you don't get to diagnose someone you haven't clinically examined. Even if you REALLY dislike their politics.
I believe the difference is this was conduct undertaken in the capacity of being an instructor in the field.
Psychiatric pros making derogatory diagnoses from afar of political opponents has a rich history going back go Barry Goldwater. Iirc the outcome back then was they would shut the hell up unless they had a proper clinical analysis.
Shouldn't have insulted a Yale alumnus (Dershowitz).
Life lesson: when even Yale thinks you've wandered off the map, there may actually be something to it. Ms. Lee's personal/business/whatever it is website is one of the richest displays of TDS I've seen, bar none. One could well imagine she was simply incapable of talking about much of anything without dragging her rent-free tenant into it.
They got a complaint from Dershowitz, one of their most famous alumni, and they seem to have taken that complaint *very* seriously. That overrode anything the Yale administrators may have thought about Trump.
I don't know about Alito, but Kavanaugh seems to be a go-along-to-get-along kind of fellow, not someone who would provoke the Yale administration.
And the money of conservative alumni is as green as the money of non-conservative alumni.
It's possible for an influential institution to be woke without going beyond all bounds of sanity.
Wow! I just looked at that website. Holy Mackerel. She is getting rich on this single topic of diagnosing Trump. She probably doesn't care any more about what Yale says. She's laughing all the way to the bank and ready to retire.
Is this your professional diagnosis?
I hope you didn't think that was clever.
No, the lesson is this sort of behavior is reserved for people like Ronnie Jackson and other elites who are more equal than a Yale volunteer or you.
From your own link above:
Jackson said Tuesday that he was speaking as a “concerned citizen” and not as a Republican congressional candidate.
“As a citizen of this country, I watch Joe Biden on the campaign trail and I am concerned that he does not — am convinced that he does not have the mental capacity, the cognitive ability to serve as our commander in chief and head of state,” Jackson told reporters on the call.
“I really think that he needs some type of cognitive testing before he takes over the reigns as our commander in chief, if that is in the cards,” Jackson added.
Jackson later acknowledged, in response to a question from a reporter, that he has never treated or evaluated Biden and said he was not making a medical assessment of Biden’s mental health.
“I am not making a medical assessment. I actually don’t even practice medicine at this point. I am not doing that,” Jackson said. “I am not trying to remotely diagnose him with anything. I have not accused him of having Alzheimer’s or anything of that nature. I have not made that statement.”
So, yeah, you don't see any difference here? "Yale volunteer" in their capacity as a teacher, claiming to make a medical diagnosis... You're really flexible, maybe you should try out for the Mental Gymnastics team.
Saying you're not making a medical assessment after making a medical assessment doesn't really cut it.
I read that as saying that there was enough concerning evidence to warrant a medical assessment being made. Not a statement as to what it would find.
Hair splitting, and you know it. A medical professional saying 'I am concerned this is X' acts exactly like a medical diagnosis. And no amount of provisos change that.
If there is going to be a rule against medical opinions (and I think there should be), then it should apply to this 'I'm not touching you' nonsense as well.
Hair splitting?!
One person very clearly stated that they were giving an opinion and that their opinion was not a medical diagnosis, while another person was attempting to pass off their opinion as a serious medical diagnosis.
Yeah, totally the same.
Might be hair splitting as far as you're concerned, but the hair is being split in the right place. A doctor needs to examine a patient to diagnose them, he doesn't need to examine them to decide they need an examination.
Imagine going to court to show you are as deranged as Donald Trump.
I can't even imagine being deranged enough to support Trump.
I blame my education, experience, intellect, and character.
well the Child Molesting sort of cancels out everything else.
Dr Lee: "Trump's a psycho"
Yale U: "Link?"
I think that state law and professional organizations can impose and enforce a rule like “you can’t issue a formal diagnosis anout a person in your professional hat without developing a doctor-patient relationship and examining the patient” without running afoul of the First amendment. So I think this professor could very likely have been fired from a paid position at a state school in the absence of contrary contractual or statutory terms.
I agree that this professor crossed the line between political speech as a citizen and professional diagnosis as a doctor. And just as a merchant doesn’t have a first amendment right to act on an opinion that a pound weighs less than professional standards say it is, think a professional diagnosis implicates conduct and is not pure speech, and states can require conduct meeting professional standards before issuing it.
I don’t agree with this at all.
A merchant misrepresenting the weight of some good that they are selling may be engaged in fraud. And fraud is a long-established exception to the First Amendment.
Just because speech is “professional” doesn’t mean it isn’t protected.
A doctor claiming to make a medical diagnosis without having taken the necessary examinations to make such a diagnosis is also committing fraud. This case fits precisely within your "long-established exception to the First Amendment."
No; that has none of the elements of fraud.
Sure, a doctor trying to charge a patient for a diagnosis without having done the exam might be defrauding the patient. But that's not what this is.
Who exactly do you think is being defrauded in your claim?
Under the doctor's legally binding code of ethics, the doctor has a duty not only to the patient but in some cases to the public at large. The people to whom she made that "public health" statement were defrauded.
Okay, this doesn't exactly line up with the conventional examples of fraud. Nevertheless, the point is that this was a very clear violation of the ethical standards of the profession and that does make it unprotected for First Amendment purposes.
As members of the Conspiracy have regularly argued, the fact that something happens to be in a professional code of ethics doesn’t automatically create an exception to the First Amendment or require courts to uphold it. Legislatures don’t have to recognize professional societies’ codes of ethics.
Legislatures don’t have to recognize professions as such in the first place. For example, there are professional societies of numismatists and philatelists, but you don’t have to be a member, abide by their rules, or get a professional credential to open a stamp or coin shop. So far as the state is concerned, these are ordinary businesses, not professions. If the state does incorporate a professional society’s code of ethics, it is limited by the First Amendment.
The upshot is you have to decide both whether the state has incorporated a professional code and whether a particular provision violates the First Amendment on a case by case basis. You can’t just say “this is a very clear violation of the ethical standards of the profession” and conclude from that both that it is prohibited by law and that prohibiting it is consistent with First Amendment.
This is not to say that standards never matter. If you claim a coin is uncirculated and it obviously isn’t, courts can look to generally accepted standards. But they can do this in any business dispute, whether there is a society with a standards body or not.
You are, of course, correct. I was trying to be concise and assumed some things applicable to this situation (such as that the legislature has recognized and incorporated the medical profession's code of ethics) rather than stating it explicitly. As you say, an "ethical code" by numismatists might well not get the same deference.
If it's not fraud, then it is libel. The doctor is making and publishing a diagnosis, knowingly making a statement that they cannot support.
The lie is that they have examined the person sufficiently to make that diagnosis. They know it's a lie, so it even passes our "actual malice" test.
Thus, it's also not protected from the first amendment.
Volunteer (uncompensated) getting fired. Reminds me of Seinfeld, where Kramer gets fired from a job he’s been showing up to even though he was never hired and was not getting paid.
“We’re going to have to let you go.”
“But I don’t even work here.”
“That’s what makes this so difficult.”
why did Kramer want to work? he made all that $$$$ selling his stories to Peterman
But he bought them back, didn't he?
My father was a psychiatrist (Columbia College '32, Columbia Physicians & Surgeons '36), and no fan of Barry Goldwater, but in 1964 when some anti-Goldwater shrinks went public with "diagnoses" of Goldwater's mental "illnesses", Dad went ballistic because the shrinks were thoroughly unprofessional in purporting to diagnose someone they had never examined. I don't know who he wrote to about this, but he was not alone, and the "Goldwater Rule" referred to in the opinion was the result.
Why do we have to learn the same lessons over and over again?
Because human frailty is always with us, and the temptations which lead to abuses don't go away just because some rule is adopted.
1. I think this woman stepped beyond the line, and was properly sanctioned.
2. Did she ever tell students (eg, on rounds, while doing diff. diagnoses, etc) about how she is diagnosing Pres. Trump? In other words, was her improper diagnostic approach on display directly to impressionable students? If not; did they even know about her opinions re Trump? (My assumption is "Yes, everyone knew about her views." But it was notable that examples of the above were not given, as far as my quick reading could find.)
3. On my cases, I have had appointed 730 experts meet with another party and give a diagnosis based on only an hour or two of in-person meetings. Or, even less time, plus the expert's review of the case file. And just as many examples of my own clients being diagnosed based on an hour or three of meeting the psychologist and/or psychiatrist. They all say, "That was plenty of time to come to a conclusion." (If you don't like the opinion, you of course try to impeach by emphasizing the minimal amount of contact b/t expert and client.) But query:
a. In situation #1, an expert meets with a client for an hour or two, and spends another 2 hours reviewing the written record in a case. Courts routinely believe diagnoses based on this sort of contact. Nothing unethical is seen about experts doing this.
b. In situation #2, you never meet with the person in question. BUT...this person is president, so she or he is on TV all the time. You, collectively, have first-hand observations of 250 cases of pathological lying, 75 instances of incoherent rage, 300 examples of physical feebleness, 12 examples of what appears to be fugue states, 11 examples of an inability to confidently drink a glass of water, 37 examples of slurred speech, and so on. Is it really manifestly unethical to form some sort of diagnosis, based on all that (which take up 17 hours of observations, added all together)? In what way would observing this person face-to-face add to the diagnosis in a meaningful way? (Of course, even if you accept my argument, I think we'd all agree that any conclusions should be qualified by the acknowledgement that, "My diagnosis was based on observations B, C, D ... Z, AA, AB, AC ... CF, CG, CH . . ., and not based on any in-person testing or observations.", so that a reader or listener knows exactly what did and did not go into this expert's analysis.)
Well, to some extent, diagnosing a politician based on their public behavior is like diagnosing an actor based on a role they're playing.
But it's worse than that, because what you see of a politician's public behavior isn't even a random sample. You don't know the media outlets aren't playing up something, or omitting context.
So, sure, if you see a politician zone out for 30 seconds in the middle of a press conference, that's probably a valid observation. More subtle stuff? Not really.
Absolutely valid point. Especially true when watching a politician speak off-the-cuff. Not easy to speak coherently, on difficult subjects, esp when you might not know the topics in advance. See a politician slur his speech once? I'd never diagnose someone based on that. But, after 30 examples, over months? It might give me concerns. President Obama, when speaking, hems and haws. A LOT. I then looked for other indica. Word salads, inappropriate language, etc. But I didn't see them, so it appeared (to me) that the stammering was a verbal tic, rather than a symptom of something, say, neurological.
I do think it's fair to wonder about a politician who lies pathologically. Lie about your sex life? Sure, there's a rational reason for that. Lie to hide culpability re email servers, stolen documents, grabbing women by pussies? Again, lying seems to be a normal human response. But it's the pathological aspect that is troublesome, from a clinical sense. Why lie about the size of your inauguration crowd? It is (a) about something really meaningless, and (b) is EASILY falsified. AND...when caught in the lie, why not make it a one-day story, but simply saying, "Yeah, I misspoke." It is the doubling down and tripling down that really screams "mental or psychological illness" to me. I had to deal with this sort of pathology in my practice (and, years later, after I went to law school and became a lawyer). You just, as a rational being, just scratch your head and say, "Why is this person absolutely refusing to acknowledge the falsity of their past statement? Don't they realize that they are sacrificing all credibility for all time by doing this?"
People are complicated. Politicians perhaps even more so. 🙂
I think you have a fair point about the lying. Why DO people tell easily debunked and unnecessary lies?
And it's not just Trump; Biden routinely falsifies his past, and lies about the present. Even CNN's fact checker has remarked on that, albeit with an unnecessary claim that Trump was worse.
If the WaPo wanted to create a Biden lies project, the way they did with Trump, they'd hardly lack for material, and if they used the same crazy standard for declaring a lie, they could achieve similar numbers.
Now, Trump typically tells self-agrandizing lies, more in the nature of braggadocio than a calculated attempt to deceive. He's actually been fairly honest on policy, perhaps because he thought his policies popular, and so he didn't see any need to lie about them.
Obama told fewer lies, but they were basically all calculated attempts to mislead people on important policy matters, so that Obama could get away with doing things that a public that hadn't been misled wouldn't have permitted. Call me crazy, but I think that's actually a lot worse than lying about the size of an inauguration crowd.
Probably not any more psychologically healthy, just sociopathy instead of narcissism.
good rational analysis
Yes trump lied , he lied a lot, though very little lying on policy
Obama
obamacare
Iran nuclear deal
nato
All vastly more detrimental to the the Nation's and world's geopolitical health
Obama...just sociopathy
The things you hear on the Conspiracy...
Sarcastr0
August.31.2022 at 10:14 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Obama...just sociopathy
"The things you hear on the Conspiracy..."
Impressive - take statements out of context
"Now, Trump typically tells self-agrandizing lies, more in the nature of braggadocio than a calculated attempt to deceive. He's actually been fairly honest on policy, perhaps because he thought his policies popular, and so he didn't see any need to lie about them."
You spelled bullshitting wrong it is not spelled braggadocio.
I dunno. "Mexico will pay for the wall." was a lie that really helped him get his nomination, and then the general election win. A lie that was (a) unambiguous in language, (b) almost laughably absurd on its face, and (c) was repeated hundreds and hundreds (thousands??) of times. My recollection was the Obama said, "If you like your health care plan you can keep it." a grand total of three times...but I might be wrong about this.
Surely, when evaluating false statements a politician makes, the number of repetitions should factor in somewhere. (I think it speaks to the length, depth, and variety of Trump's lies that no one, in 2022, actually talks any more about his first Lie of The Year (Mexico will pay for the wall.) That lie is so ancient in Trump-lie-years that it's practically antediluvian. Ah, to be in those simpler, more-innocent, times again.
How much insight do you think these expert witnesses who have so little contact with a patient are bringing to the table?
As a non-expert diagnosing Trump, it took me only a few seconds looking at his doctored Sharpie presentation of a hurricane projection map. I immediately pronounced him incompetent—at least as a meteorologist. How much farther that incompetence might extend has remained a troubling question. It pretty clearly isn't limited to meteorology.
If you think Trump is incompetent as a meteorologist you clearly have not had much experience with meteorologists. I tend to ignore almost all predictions they make, even about afternoon thunderstorms in Florida during the summer and forget what they say about hurricanes.
There is a problem in situation 2. Persona.
Trump adopts a public persona. The man is an actor and a showman. Even when he plays himself, he's playing a role. Much of the time, especially when president, he was deliberately riling up the crowds in order to draw attention or anger towards himself.
Would you diagnose Jim Carey with multiple personality disorder because he acts like completely different people? Or hallucinations since he argues with alien hedgehogs? No. Because he's acting.
You cannot diagnose Trump based on his public appearances any more than you can diagnose Jim Carey.
Rudy. Does anyone really want to take the position that a clinical examination is needed in order to conclude that Rudy is crazy?
One has to be a little more subtle. "In recent appearances [1][2][3][4], Giuliani exhibits behavior which if replicated in a clinical setting would be not inconsistent with a diagnosis of Meshuggeneh Syndrome [5] as well as Meshuggaas by Proxy [6]"
thread-winner.
I did laugh out loud.
I laughed at Somnolent Joe extorting (no error, Somnolent does/did alot of extorting in his career) the Quadriplegic dude to "Stand up Chuck!!"
and there was the whole "Dog Faced Pony Soldier",
or his creepily complimenting little girls on their hot outfits,
but hey, he's only in charge of the World's largest Economy, anyone check the market today?? this year??
Frank
The original Apollo moonwalkers were a pretty diverse lot academically, 3 Naval Academy, 2 West Point, 2 Purdue, Georgia Tech, U Texas, Carnegie Mellon, Cal Tech, and Princeton, don't see that any majored in Queer studies though.
Frank. Does anyone really want to take the position that a clinical examination is needed in order to conclude that Frank is crazy?
They said Manson was crazy too.
You're not helping your case with that comment.
It’s easy to analyze Trump, at least, even from afar. Even if he was a secure enough man to hit the couch, a therapist probably wouldn’t uncover things we don’t already know.
I think this is interesting. I certainly can understand the temptation to try to psychoanalyze Trump, even if one does not have access to all of the data necessary to do a complete job.
If a psychiatrist were to try to use their training to discuss the psychological characteristics of a deceased historical figure (say Napoleon Bonaparte), would they have also been dismissed from a voluntary position with Yale I wonder? The same issue would exist trying to diagnose Napoleon, after all, namely access to incomplete information so that ideal diagnostic practices could not be performed.
I doubt that public discourse is actually improved by forbidding this sort of speculative diagnosis with respect to inaccessible public figures. My view is that those who disagree with her should make their own case rather than firing her.
I agree. "Psychological biographies" written by professors were popular in the 1970's (Nixon was a popular "patient") and I don't remember any of them getting fired.
Just like HOAs adopt rules to protect their home values from being dragged down by irresponsible neighbors, professions and universities adopt rules to protect their credibility from being dragged down by irresponsible individuals.
Then maybe America should adopt a speech code so people like Noam Chomsky doesn’t damage the reputation of America?
The idea that a profession should be trying to maintain its reputation through censorship is deeply problematic. What if there are problems that SHOULD damage the reputation of a particular profession?
"But what if it was a dead person" is hardly a stunning defense.
But they aren’t trying to defend Donald Trump, are they? This is about methodological limitations, isn’t it?
The methodological limitations apply as much of more to Napoleon as Trump.
Yes, if one were to claim to have analyzed Napoleon with the certitude with which this person declared to have analyzed Trump, then one should expect that their teaching credential might be called into question.
The critical difference is that those "historical diagnoses" (when made by medical professionals claiming to speak in their professional capacity) are all presented with disclaimers about the sources of their data and explicit statements about the limitations of the reliability of their conclusions.
A historical diagnosis about Napolean that was equally outrageous and unsubstantiated and not properly disclaimed would be justly criticized as a violation of ethical standards.
So, in your view, an appropriate disclaimer ought to also protect a speculative diagnosis of Trump?
Yes. Not speaking for Rossami, though the question appears to have already been answered.
Absolutely there is a difference between saying "I think Donald Trump is a psycho, in my personal opinion" and declaring "as a Dr, it is my duty to warn you that Donald Trump is a psychopath."
Not merely "ought to" but "would have" and in other circumstances, "did".
This sounds like a reasonable action taken against someone who violated actual professional norms and standards. That being said, I doubt the woke brigade will allow it to stand.
Cue "But Trump.......!!!!!!!"
If the nazis had taken antipsychotics, would that be enough to disabuse them of their malignant ideas?
The real crime here is Yale getting away with hiring uncompensated faculty.
If an uncompensated position is so important that someone will sue to keep it, I suspect they think they’re getting something of value.
Stop! She’s already dead!
Not even a real professor?
ProTip for Yale: Free teachers are worth every penny.
Best comment yet!
The dismissal letter mentions "repeated violations of the APA's Goldwater Rule". The so-called "Goldwater rule", adopted by the APA in 1973, is section 7.3 of The Principles of Medical Ethics with Annotations Especially Applicable to Psychiatry, which states "it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement."
The impetus for the rule was a 1964 article in Fact magazine that stated that psychiatrists overwhelmingly believed that GOP nominee Barry Goldwater was psychologically unfit to be president. The magazine had sent questionnaires to over 1800 psychiatrists with one question: "'Do you believe Barry Goldwater is psychologically fit to serve as President of the United States?". The respondents could check "yes" or "no" and were invited to provide additional comments. The full-page frontispiece to the resultant article proclaimed: "Fact: 1,189 Psychiatrists Say Goldwater Is Psychologically Unfit to Be President!" Walter Earl Burton, medical director of the APA, sent a letter to the magazine condemning the article and stating that APA would take all possible measures to disavow it.
Goldwater sued the magazine and its editors for defamation. A jury awarded him $1 in compensatory damages and $75,000 in punitive damages. The Second Circuit upheld the verdict. Goldwater v. Ginzburg, 414 F.2d 324 (2nd Cir. 1969), cert. denied, 396 U.S. 1049 (1970). Justice Black, joined by Justice Douglas, dissented from the denial of certiorari, writing that New York Times v. Sullivan (1964) had not gone far enough, anyone should be able to say whatever he pleased about a public figure, and that he would have granted certiorari and summarily reversed the court of appeals. 396 U.S. at 1050-53.
thanks
Correct decision and just dumb on the Dr Lee's part.
A simple disclaimer would have covered everything.
"This diagnostic impression is based solely publicly available information and I have not personally examined Pres. Trump nor any of his personal medical or psychological records (if any exist)."
Or something like that.
Agreed
That's rather like saying "I am not speaking as a judge or jury, but my opinion is that So-and-So committed murder." You can't disclaim away the substance of a factual claim by calling it an opinion, or the substance of a medical diagnosis by saying you have no sound basis for the diagnosis. The professional approach is to avoid medically or professionally specific terms like psychosis.
re: "You can't disclaim away ..."
Actually, you can do exactly that. And if she had included the appropriate disclaimers, this would clearly have been protected speech. It was by explicitly wrapping her speech in the trappings and credentials of her profession that she got herself in trouble.
Sure, the better approach would be to be more nuanced and, well, sane in your choice of words. But that is not required for First Amendment analysis.
The First Amendment is not implicated in this case. Yale is a private university.
"And the court rejected plaintiff's claim under the Connecticut private employee free speech statute, which provides,"
Any employer … who subjects any employee to discipline or discharge on account of the exercise by such employee of rights guaranteed by the first amendment to the United States Constitution
No? Seems to me the question was avoided by finding that she was not an employee. If she was an employee, she would be protected by 1A, by virtue of Connecticut statute. Same difference.
But she wasn’t an employee.
But she wasn’t an employee.
Is there an echo in here?
...or your diagnoses of DavidBehar here in the comments.
Ever seen those people claim to be making a clinical diagnosis rather than a common-sense one?
Doctors are subject to ethical standards that are legally binding. That means you and I can sometimes do things that a doctor cannot.
Making a medical diagnosis without proper clinical context is one of them.
Queen almathea
August.30.2022 at 4:22 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Ever seen people diagnose of the current President without proper clinical context? Or of a Secretary of State? Asking for a friend."
A) no one is giving a clinical diagnosis of biden's cognitive skills
B) Bidens significant decline of his cognitive skills is obvious to everyone.
"both sides do it"
Really? Please provide some examples of psychiatrists diagnosing Clinton [your reference I presume] like she did?
I have not acted against Queenie, because I love my Queenie. It is the only one stupid enough to actually reply to me. I get lonely here, when it does not stalk me.
My Queen found the KGB Handbook in some wet trash. They call dissenters insane and shoot medication into then.
You are being purposefully dense. A professional cannot do a diagnosis of a person without meeting and examining them.
That does not mean that a lay person cannot form an impression of someone based on long-term observation. It's not hard to tell when someone is senile or half-senile.
You think some lay pundit or Twitter rando making a comment about Clinton is the same as a psychiatrist doing a purported diagnosis?
It's certainly better than your side's frequent lay diagnosis of "literally Hitler". If we're going to appeal to the claims make by people who aren't expected to know better.
"medical professional to make one sans the preferred clinical context is outrageous!"
Yes, it is. An authority figure claiming professional expertise is worse than some lay person doing it.
The profession has a long standing rule against it because medical professionals think its wrong.
You really enjoy beating up on straw men. Shows the weakness of your argument.
It's not just vague notions of professionalism. The thing about doctors not diagnosing people they haven't examined is LAW in most states.
Lol, Bob suddenly discovers professionalism (but only to try to tie their hands, of course)!
This is typical of conservatives. Professionals are wrong, they carry no more weight than anyone on a topic, they’re just biased…
Then suddenly, hey that professional is not living up to the standards of professionalism, what an abomination!
This is why nobody takes you seriously.
Except the chef was formerly a master plumber who decided he'd rather work with food before it became shit.
You're clutching at straws today and you've used this analogy before.
Take a nap or huff a whippet.
Yes, you demonstrate that with every comment you make. Purposefully dense!
Not everything is a moral panic, purposefully dense bruh. Sometimes a gross breach of professional ethics is just a gross breach of professional ethics.
In 2019, I filed this complaint against Dr. Lee and against her Chairman of the Department. It lays out the problems with her behavior. The Board is totally biased, and suborned her misconduct. The court used other arguments, but it should not force an employer to compensate unethical behavior. Forecasting is medical quackery. It sure is in the lawyer profession too, yet remains the central doctrine of torts.
RE: Bandy X. Lee, MD, MDiv; Department of Psychiatry, [personal information omitted]
Unprofessional Conduct
Dear Doctor:
The evidence for this complaint is from the chapters written by Dr. Lee in her book, The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, pp 1-22. The unprofessional conduct is the making of a psychiatric diagnosis, and using technical psychiatric diagnostic terms about a person she has not personally examined. The second element of her unprofessional conduct is the making of a prediction that a person is dangerous. I reserve the possibility of filing other complaints about her utterances elsewhere.
Complaints: 1) She called Donald Trump a sociopath, paranoid; 2) she then falsely stated that she is not making a diagnosis, but is assessing his dangerousness. The prediction of dangerousness is itself quackery. The President has not harmed anyone, nor threatened to harm anyone. Prediction of dangerousness in psychiatry remains quackery, even in those who have previously been physically dangerous.
Knowledge of Wrongdoing: Dr. Lee provided an excellent, and very knowledgeable analysis of her own violations in her 2 book chapters. She discussed, at length, the long established ethical requirement to not make a psychiatric diagnosis in people not personally examined by the health provider. She added a review of the long history of calling dissenters against the Soviet political system, paranoid, involuntarily committing them, and involuntarily giving them mind altering medications. This KGB practice was widely condemned around the word, she reported. Psychiatry in politics has been condemnable many other times, than in the Soviet era.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry )
Legal Aspects of this Complaint: See your "Sec. 38a-175. (Formerly Sec. 33-179a).
Definitions: ... Section (8) "Health care" includes, but shall not be limited to, the following: ...and (xiv) any other care, service or treatment related to the prevention or treatment of disease, the correction of defects and the maintenance of the physical and mental well-being of human beings. Any diagnosis and treatment of diseases of human beings required for health care as defined in this section, if rendered, shall be under the supervision and control of the providers;" Dr. Lee by her diagnosis has engaged in Health Care, as defined by your rule. You therefore have jurisdiction to regulate the health care utterances in her book.
In Padilla v Kentucky, the Supreme Court held that regulation of professional speech must defer to the "weight of prevailing professional norms." The American Psychiatric Association (APA) felt compelled to issue an addendum to their ethical rule, likely prompted by the egregious violation by Dr. Lee and by her co-authors. In a statement released Jan. 9, 2018, the APA vigorously upheld the principles articulated in the Goldwater Rule, writing,
"We at the APA call for an end to psychiatrists providing professional opinions in the media about public figures whom they have not examined, whether it be on cable news appearances, books, or in social media. Armchair psychiatry or the use of psychiatry as a political tool is the misuse of psychiatry and is unacceptable and unethical... A proper psychiatric evaluation requires more than a review of television appearances, tweets, and public comments."
Dr. Lee admitted violating these established norms in her chapters, excusing herself by urgency.
She also misled her readers by failing to disclose, the prediction of dangerousness remains a type of medical quackery. Given this terrible state of the art of predicting dangerousness, Dr. Lee is unaware that the word "dangerousness" has been replaced by the word, "risk." It was estimated that 3000 already seriously mentally ill people would have to be incarcerated in a mental hospital to prevent the one correctly predicted suicide. Pres. Trump was pronounced healthy, after extensive examination at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, including mental testing.
Suborning Unprofessional Conduct by Other Licensed Practitioners: As editor, she suborned the same misconduct and violations of ethics by 11 co-authors, who are medical doctors.
Nor, am I alone in expressing concern about the misconduct of Dr. Lee. Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman served as advisor to the Clinton campaign, opposing Pres. Trump politically. ( https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/889189#vp_1 )
Here's Ronnie Jackson diagnosing Biden:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/520830-former-trump-doctor-ronny-jackson-questions-bidens-mental-fitness-for/
I suspect Ronnie was probably drunk during that interview, I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.
I'm sorry, you were saying...?
Yes, your both-sidesism was incoherently comparing professionals claiming to do professional things that typical people are unqualified to do, against typical people doing typical-people things.
I corrected you by pointing out that the analogous typical-people behaviors were actually "hey, Joe Biden is acting senile again" versus "DEATHSANTIS IS LITERALLY HITLER".
What are my media outlets? I haven't even told you my pronouns, and you think you know my media outlets?
I admit puzzlement. As he is still a threat in 2024, Task Force All Against Him is still in progress. So why do this? Once he is out everybody drops their footballs wherever they are and goes home. This point has not yet been reached.
President Trump exhibited a "pattern of delusions," was "lacking rational decision making capacity," and had "definitive signs of severe pathology" that required "an advanced level of care."
Not likely. Trump is from NYC real estate, exactly the same as Leona Helmsley, but less mean spirited. He is just an ICD 10 F63.0, a liar, and needs to be punished. He was by the voter.
Honestly that's about as bad as it gets. Ronnie Jackson was supervising Biden's medical team for 8 years even if he never directly treated him (I don't know). Making public comments on one of your patients without permission is a major violation of professional ethics and could cause suspension of his license if Biden made a complaint in most states.
The only person who uses the name "DEATHSANTIS" is Cremmington, and I don't think he's part of anybody's side. Maybe 9/11 truthers, but even they've moved on except for our Sebastian.
Wrong. https://www.wibc.com/blogs/tony-katz/the-view-host-sunny-hostin-dubs-gov-of-flordia-deathsantis-for-handling-covid-miserably/
I should have said the only one "around here" who uses that term.
We were not talking about people "around here". Except for Mr. Bumble pointing out that QA personally seems to enjoy diagnosing people over the Internet.
"DEATHSANTIS IS LITERALLY HITLER".
A common theme by the left in reference to covid/florida
though it should be noted that per capita death rate by age group in almost every state was remarkably similar. Florida per capita death rate was right in the middle. Especially true of over 65 age group.
Rview of shared delusional disorder. Judge for yourself. A delusion is not a lie, where the person knows the falsity. It is not indoctrination, where the person has been taught the belief, including religious beliefs. A delusion is not changed by facts nor logic, and remains firm. Commie is a delusion, but indoctrinated. Marx, its originator, was just wrong, not mentally ill.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK541211/
Hey, I know for sure that those italic tags were in the right place! C'mon Reason, spend some of that Koch money on a fully functional chat software.
It's not hard to tell when someone is senile or half-senile.
In its incipient stages, Alzheimer's diagnosis is literally so difficult that professional neurologists—at least the good ones—tend to require at least repeated examinations over a period of years to make a diagnosis, and then they tend to hedge. What they will tell you with confidence is that you can get definitive diagnosis with an autopsy.
Biden is nowhere near being actually senile. If someone like Bored Lawyer, for instance, had an opportunity to debate Biden publicly on U.S. foreign policy, he would be wise to decline. Biden would mop the floor with him.
Half the reason for that is that Biden would just confidently proceed with the argument not caring one bit that a lot of what he was saying was outrageous BS, possibly not even being aware of it.
In an academic debate before an informed crowd, Biden would get slaughtered. But that's not where his competence lies. Like any high level politician, his main competence is manipulating people.
There is a strong difference in medical treatment between dementia, Alzheimers, stroke, brain cancer, and multitude of other diseases and conditions that affect the brain. Therefore, doctors have to be very careful when determining the exact diagnosis.
You can generally tell someone is unable to adequately do a job in a much shorter span of time with much less direct observation.
As a comparison, this is why psychiatry has textbooks on how to diagnose mental illness, but courts have a much shorter decision on mental fitness (whether you can understand right from wrong and act on such an understanding). It's easy to tell when something's wrong. It's much harder to know how to fix it.
Democrats are currently (pretty successfully) pushing legislation that will allow them to call dissenters insane and take away their guns.
(Of course, once they disarm us, what's to stop them from locking us up, forcibly medicating us, or doing anything else they feel like doing to us?)