The Volokh Conspiracy
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Three Reforms to Protect Democracy from Election Denialism
Second post in the symposium on the National Constitution Center "Restoring the Guardrails of Democracy" project. Edward Foley outlines the Team Progressive Report.
The acute crisis confronting American democracy right now is caused by a movement within one of the nation's two major political parties. This movement is appropriately called "election denialism"—meaning that its adherents are willing to deny the lawfully determined outcome of an election if their candidate is the one who lost. The election denialist movement within the Republican Party, led by former president Donald Trump, is seeking to gain control over the institutions and procedures that determine the outcome of future elections. If election denialists prevail in this effort at taking control, self-government—whether one calls it "republicanism" or "democracy"—will no longer be possible. Ultimately, self-government depends on the lawfully determined winners of elections taking office based on those electoral results, and election denialism strikes at the heart of that most basic premise.
The effort to protect the Republic from election denialism should not be viewed as a partisan endeavor. Liz Cheney, among others, is correct when she exclaims that safeguarding the Constitution and its commitment to a "republican form of government" will require Democrats, Republicans, and independents of good will to join forces. As our contribution to the NCC Guardrails of Democracy project explained, democracy protection requires reforms along three dimensions. First, and most immediately, there needs to be revisions to the rules that govern the declaration of winners in presidential elections. Second, there needs to be structural reforms to the nation's electoral processes to prevent election denialists winning races even when a majority of the electorate would prefer other candidates. Third, there needs to be carefully tailored adjustments, consistent with the First Amendment, that deter election denialists from spreading intentional falsehoods about election results. What follows is an overview of these three points.
Electoral Count Act Reform. The good news is that a bipartisan group of Senators, led by Susan Collins and Joe Manchin, have developed a revision to the dangerously antiquated Electoral Count Act of 1887, which was exploited for partisan purposes on January 6, 2021 (among other recent presidential elections). Indeed, the exploitation of this outdated and convoluted statute by election denialist allies of Trump is what set the stage for the insurrectionary riot at the Capitol that delayed the counting of the electoral votes in the 2020 election. The Collins-Manchin bill, while not perfect (what legislative endeavor ever is?), would fix the flaws in the 1887 law and significantly reduce the risk of election denialists negating the lawful winner of a future presidential election. The Collins-Manchin bill does this by requiring Congress to accept whatever the courts determine to be the true outcome of the presidential election in each state according to the applicable law when the ballots are cast. Even if election denialist officials in a state attempt to subvert the true result, Congress must abide by what the courts say and not whatever any election denialists do. The prospects for the Collins-Manchin bill passing Congress are good, given the level of bipartisan support it already has received in the Senate. But until the bill is enacted in the law, presidential elections remain dangerously vulnerable to subversion at the hands of election denialists. Thus, doing whatever it takes to get the Collins-Manchin bill across the legislative finish line must remain the most urgent electoral priority.
Securing the Will of Electoral Majorities. Just because an election denialist candidate wins a partisan primary and then goes on to win the general election, it does not mean that the election denialist is the candidate most preferred by a majority of the electorate. This point is not well-understood, but it needs to be to avoid election denialists holding office even when a majority of voters would prefer someone else. Right now, election denialists are able to exploit the features of the nation's prevailing electoral system that enable candidates opposed by a majority of voters to win partisan primaries, often with less than a majority of votes in the primary, and then win the November general election because the plurality-winner rule in November prevents meaningful competition from anyone other than the nominee of the opposing major party. Altering the structure of electoral competition, so that the will of the majority can prevail, needs to be a top priority in order to counteract the threat of election denialism prevailing even when a majority of voters do not want it to.
A few pending midterm races illustrate this point. In Arizona, election denialist Kari Lake narrowly won the Republican primary with 48%, less than a majority. Her main competitor, Karrin Taylor Robson, was not an election denialist, and perhaps might have won the GOP nomination if a runoff or "instant runoff" using ranked-choice voting had been used to identify the majority preference of the state's GOP voters. In any event, Taylor Robson likely would be more preferred by a majority of all the state's voters—those voting in the November general election—than the election denialist Lake. This presumption is based on the common-sense observation that virtually all the state's Democrats would prefer non-denialist Taylor Robson to denialist Lake. Therefore, although a majority of the state's November voters might prefer the Democratic nominee Katie Hobbs to either Republican, Taylor Robson or Lake, it is also possible that in this closely divided state a majority of the November voters this year would prefer either Republican to Hobbs. But if Hobbs doesn't win, Democratic voters would rather have Taylor Robson than Lake, and given that almost half Republican voters also preferred Taylor Robson to Lake, it seems undoubtedly true that a majority of all the state's voters would want Taylor Robson rather than Lake to become the state's governor.
Yet, given the nature of the electoral system, the November race will be just Lake versus Hobbs, with Taylor Robson eliminated in the partisan primary. Lake thus might beat Hobbs and become Arizona's governor, even though a majority of Arizona voters in November would prefer Taylor Robson over Lake. This is how the majority of the state's voters' actual preference can be defeated in the existing electoral system, and this is what must change to prevent election denialists from taking office even though a majority of voters would favor a different outcome.
Other midterm races illustrate the same point. Election denialist J.D. Vance won the Republican primary for Ohio's U.S. Senate seat with less than a third of the votes, 32.2%, beating among other candidates non-denialist Matt Dolan (who came in third with 23.3%). Vance might win the November election against Democratic nominee Tim Ryan, even though a majority of Ohio's November voters might prefer non-denialist Dolan to Vance. Again, the partisan primary knocked Dolan out of contention even though he would be the candidate that the majority of November voters would most prefer. Something similar could also be true in North Carolina's U.S. Senate election. There, election denialist Ted Budd won the GOP primary, beating non-denialist (and former governor) Pat McCrory. Budd might beat Democratic nominee Cheri Beasley in November, even though a majority of November's voters in the state likely would prefer McCrory to Budd.
In this way, election denialists can come to power after the November elections, in governorships and U.S. Senate seats among other major offices, even though November voters in all these states would have preferred a non-denialist alternative, who got boxed out by the partisan primary. It is imperative to change this anti-majority feature of the prevailing electoral system, and it is possible to do so through a version of ranked-choice voting that conforms to majority-maximizing electoral principles. Known as Round-Robin Voting, because it resembles a round-robin sports tournament in which each competitor faces one-on-one against every other competitor, this version of ranked-choice voting would prevent election denialists from winning office whenever they are not the candidate most preferred by a majority of all the voters in the electorate. If we want to safeguard democracy from election denialism, we need to pursue this reform (among others).
Combatting the Spread of Intentional Falsehoods about Election Results. What is most brazen about the so-called "Big Lie"—that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Trump and that Joe Biden was not the rightful winner pursuant to the rules for conducting the election—was that at least some of the leading perpetrators of this Big Lie knew it to be false but spread the falsehood anyway. Rudy Giuliani, Trump's lead lawyer for contesting the outcome of the 2020 election, admitted that they had no evidence to support claims they were making. Others, including Trump himself, also surely must have known the Big Lie was false if, as Attorney General Bill Barr observed, they were maintaining a connection to reality; only by being utterly detached from, or in defiance of, reality would it be possible to claim, as Trump and his supporters have, that Trump would have won the election were it not for massive fraud inflating Biden's vote totals beyond the ballots cast for him by valid voters.
The First Amendment's freedoms of expression are essential elements to self-government. But the First Amendment historically has never been understood to protect the "knowing lie," and even the U.S. Supreme Court's recent case involving the false claim of being a Medal of Honor recipient does not go so far as to protect all intentional falsehoods from well-tailored and well-justified statutes aimed precisely to protect the political process from deliberately destructive disinformation. Although the idea of using criminal prosecutions to counteract intentionally false election denialism must proceed with great caution, it is necessary to restore a political culture that causes professionals like Rudy Giuliani to exercise an appropriate measure of self-restraint in their public discourse about adverse election outcomes. Going forward, no one should think they are entitled to spread intentional untruths like the Big Lie with impunity; as has become abundantly clear since 2020, this kind of deliberate dishonesty about who really won the election does grave damage to the capacity of the country to conduct elections as a core component of republican self-government, and consistent with the First Amendment the Republic is entitled in the interest of self-preservation to take carefully drawn steps to protect itself from this kind of damage.
Additionally, social media companies have no First Amendment right to simultaneously elevate intentional falsehoods on their platforms and remain immune from the liability that intentional falsehoods cause. No other type of publisher who exercises control over what they publish is entitled to such absolute immunity from their publication choices. Under the famous New York Times v. Sullivan standard, newspapers are liable under defamation law for the intentional falsehoods they print. So too are TV and cable broadcasters, for the intentional falsehoods they disseminate. The same should be true for social media companies—unless those social media companies exercise no control over the content of the expression that flows through their platforms, in which case then the companies should be immunized from liability in the same way that an old-fashioned telephone company would be. But as long as social media companies wish to profit from amplifying some messages over others, then they should be liable under defamation (and, where applicable, other forms of tort law) for the damages that their amplification of intentional falsehoods cause.
The Synergy of These Three Steps. Pursuing these three dimensions of reform cannot guarantee that American democracy will withstand the serious threat it currently faces from election denialism. Unfortunately, there can be no such guarantee if a majority of Americans actually become converted to the election denialism cause. But, thankfully, election denialism has not taken hold among the public to this extent, at least not yet. Thus, as long as election denialism remains a minority rather than majority position among the American electorate as a whole, these three dimensions of reform—especially if undertaken in combination, so that they can reinforce each other's effectiveness—can go a long way to safeguarding the right of self-government that, since the Declaration of Independence itself, has been the nation's foundational principle.
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requiring Congress to accept whatever the courts determine to be the true outcome of the presidential election in each state according to the applicable law when the ballots are cast.
Laws, like the ones abrogated by executive fiat "because covid"?
I agree that Biden is President. The Democrats lost seats in Congress. If they had cheated that would not have happened.
I would ignore denialism. They lost in courts. Case is closed.
Jan 6 Committee and the Mar a Lago warrant are just Democrat lawfare against the future candidacy of Trump in 2024
Yup. Just like the denialism of the 2000 election. Many of the 2000 Election denialists are still in power, and that doesn't seem to have caused much harm.
And Hillary Clinton, an election 2016 denialist, is still respected by many in her party.
Trump lost, let's move on.
Not a single person who had complaints about those elections has been acting how Trump and his supporters have been acting or doing what Trump and his supporters have been doing.
So?
So your analogy to try to normalize this sucks.
Yes, yes they have.
When they cheated they printed only Joe Biden ballots. Go look at GA, a record number of Biden only ballots.
They're as stupid as they are evil.
What a dumbass.
Are you seriously arguing a former president having a bunch of TS/SCI material in a fucking unlocked/unguarded bedroom is appropriate?
Get fucked traitor.
Given the former president already knows about what is in there, yes, it is appropriate. Because seriously who cars?
Only traitors are those prosecuting him.
Securing the Will of Electoral Majorities which we know because we are mind readers!
" . . . a movement within one of the nation's two major political parties . . . "
Stopped reading.
I understand your choice, but keep in mind you have to read enemy pro-government propaganda in order to know how to best counter it.
Everything in this post presupposes that "election denialists" (presumably just the term dujour for nationalist-populists) are NOT favored by a majority of the electorate. That may be the case, but you have to show your work. Also, the legitimacy of the post would be improved by highlighting the fact that an entire half of the American political spectrum perpetrated numerous investigations spurred by the lie that Trump had "stolen" the 2016 election with Russia's help. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, I'm afraid.
He knows, but he's a leftist, so he has to pretend none of what you're saying is true.
Leftists are evil liars.
Well, those investigations concluded that Russia had been interfering in the election, that Trump knew about it and, at a minimum, welcomed it. Multilpe audits and court cases have shown claims about the 2020 election to be utterly without foundation. Sauce indeed.
If a majority thinks 2020 was stolen, our democracy is over and we will soon know.
"the plurality-winner rule in November prevents meaningful competition from anyone other than the nominee of the opposing major party"
Sure, because *someone* restricts ballot access for independent and third-party candidates.
Now the cartel parties want to "fix" a problem they caused, while still enjoying the benefits of suppressing third parties.
Personally, I am not a fan of third-party candidates in our Federal system. They work in parliamentary systems much better, where coalitions are formed after elections. In our system, the coalitions are formed before elections. Tomato, tomahto.
However, Somin's idea for ranked choice primaries does not solve the problem it purports to. To get the true benefit of ranked choice voting, there should be no primaries at all -- just a general election with everyone on the ballot. Only that way do you get the mathematical benefit of ranked-choice voting.
I don't think the issue is whether you prefer third parties or not, the issue is whether the government, at the behest of the cartel parties, should be keeping the names of candidates off the ballot.
The voters, if the prefer the stability of a two-party system which has served us so well, can continue to vote for the cartel parties.
I'm not unsympathetic to your argument, but here's the argument on the other side: When non-cartel parties are on the ballot they typically top at 1% or less of the vote. So why should the ballot be cluttered up with 15 or 20 names that have no real support?
I don't think the 2000 election was "stolen" in the sense of fraud, but I do think all those third parties crammed onto a single page probably did lead to enough voter confusion that Al Gore likely would have won Florida had he and Bush been the only two names on the ballot. Which means that including those third parties probably produced a result that was not what a majority of the voters intended.
The other huge problem with ranked choice voting is that is COMPLICATED. The average voter doesn't (and in a depressingly large number of cases cannot) understand it. On top of that, if NY is any indication, it is extremely difficult to implement and on top of that, time consuming to get results (which may or may not be accurate).
Alaska has not released the results yet from a House special election held several weeks ago.
Let's repeat that nationally! What could go wrong?
The delay has exactly zero to do with RCV. Applying the RCV rules themselves takes literally seconds.
Alaska hasn't released the results yet because the votes hadn't all come in. Military votes could come in as late as this past Friday (the 26th) and still be counted.
probably a lot more fraud in the 2000 FL election than acknowledged
Point 1 - very difficult to get a dimpled chad when punching a single ballot at a time. Very easy to get dimpled ballots when punching multiple ballots at one time.
Point 2 - there was a Fl senate seat election at the same time, that was won the by bill nelson 51.0 vs 46.2 which was a 4.8% delta. That 4.8 margin generally remains fairly consistent thoughout most every precinct. However, that margin skewed rather dramatically in the counties with the highest proportion of dimpled ballots - coincidence?
Assuming you didn't just make this all up, which is likely given your track record: yes.
Nice response from someone with a track record demonstrating near zero math or analytical skills
I will add that you never have demonstrated the ability to review the raw data on any subject matter.
consistent with you history of disputing the data without having knowledge of the data
Not bringing in the raw numbers because the people on this blog won't be able to understand what they mean.
Strong argument!
Privatizing the political parties, having them nominate their own candidates subject to the right of dissendent party factions to nominate candidates too, would seem to counteract the "ballot clutter" you're worried about. There might be "clutter" on the general election ballot, but there would be less clutter in the primary ballot because the parties would be private organizations again and their candidates wouldn't be on official ballots until nominated.
In Pres elections, the state legislatures can award themselves the right to name the electors. Or it can nominate two candidates and allow voters to pick between them. Thus, no problems with third parties.
So much for that!
As for other elections, where the voters (unlike in Presidential elections) have the right to select candidates:
We're expected to believe that the cartel parties keep competing names off the ballot because they're worried about confusing the poor voters. And I have a nice bridge to sell you.
If the voters are in fact incapable of self-government, incapable of selecting from among *all* available candidates, then just have a hereditary nobility, or have every office filled by a civil-service exam. Let the voters alone, let them play video games and not bother their betters.
But if you're into that sort of thing, please don't pretend you're interested in free elections, a fair vote count, or any of those other things the cartel is hyperventilating about when they just mean rig the game in their favor and the voters be damned.
The acute crisis confronting American democracy right now is caused by a movement within one of the nation's two major political parties.
I assume this is a reference to Republicans. Mr. Foley needs to be reminded there was a movement within among Democrats denying the legitimacy of President Trump's election in 2016. To this day, they still are "election denialists" regarding the 2016 Presidential election.
2016? Hell, let's go back to 2000 with Bush v Gore.
You mean when Gore conceded after the SCOTUS decision?
Trump's defenders are grasping at imaginary straws.
I rest my case.
Comparing Hillary or Gore to what Trump is doing to this very day (and making a party litmus test) just doesn't work.
It's worse than straw-grasping; it's unmoored from reality.
"what Trump is doing" isn't much of a standard.
Fortunately the OP provides a standard: "...meaning that its adherents are willing to deny the lawfully determined outcome of an election if their candidate is the one who lost."
Hillary certainly did that, as did plenty of folks after 2000.
No, she didn't. She conceded. You can cherry pick her sour grapes if you want, but she took no actions and conceded.
As did Gore, and the entire Dem party in 2000.
"Hillary certainly did that, as did plenty of folks after 2000."
Just a liar.
Because I know that you know that Hillary conceded.
And those "plenty of folks" did not include any U.S. Senators or, most pertinently, the actual candidate (Gore) who conceded.
You know these facts, but pretend the 2000 and 2016 sackcloth and ashes was the same as Trump refusing to concede, twelve Republican Senators and over a hundred representatives voting not to certify the electoral votes of multiple states, after a violent mob attacked the Capitol with the express purpose of stopping the counting of electoral votes, and then, after exerting pressure and failing to achieve it, Trump still claimed that Pence should have "overturned the election", and just today he claims that he should be declared the winner of the 2020 election.
You are a dishonest, bag of shit to try to compare what Trump and his apologists have done to anything that went before from either party.
He is far too blinded by partisanship to acknowledge that. His failure to even make a nod to the considerations of normal people on the other side seriously weakens his argument. You'll never win an argument by starting out insulting half of those listening.
The stolen election/election denial/election fraud believers are a fringe, delusional minority; they do not constitute half of much of anything.
They deserve to be insulted.
He is not blinded. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's just lying.
Yeah, that didn't happen in 2016. People were mad, but no one - not Obama, not Hillary, tried to overturn the election.
Trump tried to overturn the election like 7 different ways.
"no one - ... tried to overturn the election"
The "Hamilton Elector" movement existed so "no one" is a lie. Obama and Clinton are not the entire world.
Again, this is why we call you Gaslighto.
Whoever "we" is continues to have no idea what gaslighting actually is.
No one tried to overturn the 2016 election? Really?
So when Jim McGovern (D-MA) challenged the Alabama electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, he wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Jamie Raskin (D-MD) challenged the Florida electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, he wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) challenged the Georgia electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, she wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Barbara Lee (D-CA) challenged the Michigan and West Virginia electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, she wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Raul Grijalva (D-AZ) challenged the North Carolina electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, she wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) challenged the North Carolina, South Carolina, and Wisconsin electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, she wasn't trying to overturn the election?
So when Maxine Waters (D-CA) challenged the Wyoming electoral votes on January 6, 2017 under the Electoral Count Act, she wasn't trying to overturn the election?
"It couldn't work so it wasn't a serious effort" is an argument you can make, sure -- just as soon as you say the same about the riot on January 6, 2021.
The simple fact is, every single time a Republican has won the presidency in this century, several Congressional Democrats invoked the Electoral Count Act to try to reverse the result. As long as any of them are still allowed to sit in the Democratic caucus and are superdelegates to the Democratic national convention, election denialism clearly has an honored place in the Democratic Party.
Nevermind Stacey Abrams in Georgia.
According to The New York Times, The Washington Post, Politico, the SEIU and the rest of the institutional Democrat media/academy/political complex, Abrams is actually the “incumbent” governor of Georgia. This politburo has continuously propagated Abrams’ lie that the 2018 Georgia election was “stolen” by neo-KKK Jim Crow forces dominating the state’s Republican Party—a party Joe Biden claims is dedicated to “keeping African-Americans in chains.”
Abrams is also the 2022 Democratic nominee for governor in Georgia, running again against the real incumbent Republican Brian Kemp. Kemp is the governor who flatly refused to consider Trump’s demands to overturn the valid results of the 2020 presidential election in Georgia.
But all anyone ever hears about Georgia is how the 2018 governor’s election was “stolen” from Abrams.
I mean, considering Kemp was monitoring his OWN RACE and the backups just mysteriously got deleted....
There's a reason that one appears stolen- because any kind of safeguard was done away with.
Kemp should've never been in charge of monitoring his own election like that nor should the data have gotten deleted. Same thing that Hillary's server data shouldn't have been deleted, Secret Service 1/6 texts shouldn't have been deleted, etc. etc. etc.
Intent matters.
In January 2017, no more than one representative objected to any state except for North Carolina, where two objected. No Senators objected.
At the best, there was a tiny minority of representatives (7) involved.
And do you have their statements explaining their votes? They acknowledged prior to attempting to make the objections that they did not believe their posturing would have any practical effect.
The seven representatives were gaveled down by the then-Vice President and our current President who explained "it's over."
Meanwhile, in 2020, 147 Republicans objected. 139 House members and 8 Senators. With the Senators signing on, this was a formal objection to counting electoral college votes. And the express purpose was not to raise problems with voting procedures, it was a genuine attempt to change the result.
Add to that, there was a pressure campaign on Pence to just reject electoral college votes. He did his clear constitutional duty and refused the invitation.
The objections to the 2020 electoral college votes, the pressure campaign directed at Pence, and the January 6 riots, were all intended to change the result. The point is that the people involved in these escapades though they had a chance of changing the outcome of the election. It doesn't matter that, in retrospect, each of these efforts was doomed to fail. The participants didn't think so at the time.
And, it must be repeated, in each of the examples you cite, the losing candidate conceded well before the electoral college count and, in one case, the loser was the one who gaveled down the would-be objectors. Trump still hasn't conceded and just today told his supporters he should be declared the winner of the 2020 election.
It's just dishonest to pretend that any prior objections were similar in kind, scope, or magnitude to the the denialism prior to, during, and after the 2020 election.
Correct. All of those people were engaging in performative silliness, not trying to overturn the election.
If voting not to certify an election is "performative silliness," then so is gallivanting around the Capitol wearing furs and brandishing a spear. Hell, you could even chalk up the zip ties and nooses to being "edgy and transgressive."
I am having a hard time understanding why you insist on defending the Dems' indefensible behavior. Their antics and rhetoric over the past 20 years made it much easier for Jan 6 to happen.
That does not excuse Trump, and Jan 6 was far worse that any of the stunts the Dems pulled. But that does not mean that what the Dems did was OK.
Some performative silliness is criminal. Some is not.
I hope this helps you distinguish between these two events, even ignoring that one is making a janky vote and the other is hunting for Congresspeople with express violent intent to subvert our democracy.
I am having a hard time understanding why you insist on defending the Dems' indefensible behavior.
This is you, begging the question.
Think about why this 'indefensible behavior' was not really remarked on at the time by anyone, including the GOP. No one thought it was a big deal - we're all fans of democracy here. Until we weren't.
Because in retrospect it sowed the seeds for 1/6. Democrats like to pretend that their own words and deeds are never harmful or dangerous, but they are. I don't expect you guys to get in a time machine and condemn those congresspeople back in 2004 and 2016, but at least you could say something like "Knowing what we know now, that was a really dumb thing to do." it would go a long way to giving you some credibility with the people on the other side.
Related to this is the penchant for Democrats to paint any Republican presidential candidate as the "most extreme ever." They did it to McCain and they did it to Mitt Freakin' Romney. That kind of wolf crying dulled the impact of much more accurate criticisms of Trump.
The lesson we should all be drawing is to tone down the rhetoric, not to mention the actual violence. But what I am hearing from the Democrats is that Republicans just need to shut up and suck it up. That is not, as they say in HR-land, helpful or constructive.
Indefensible *in retrospect* what kind of time travel world do you live in??
Though more importantly, Dems did not sew the seeds of Jan 06 - that was the GOP and Trump and only the GOP and Trump. They did all sorts of stuff without precedent; don't pretend they cared a jot what the Dems did in 2016.
Related to this is the penchant for Democrats to paint any Republican presidential candidate as the "most extreme ever." They did it to McCain and they did it to Mitt Freakin' Romney. That was not done with Romney. He was a cold-hearted dog-terrifying capitalist, not a wild-eyed radical.
But the other side's candidate is an extremist tactic has been on the table for a while. Also done with: Obama. Freaking Joe Biden. See also FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Nixon, Bill Clinton. Hillary too. You feel injured now, so you want it to be special. But this is not special, this is politics.
The lesson we should all be drawing is to tone down the rhetoric, not to mention the actual violence. But what I am hearing from the Democrats is that Republicans just need to shut up and suck it up. That is not, as they say in HR-land, helpful or constructive.
Again - both sides have been telling the other to shut up since at least 1972.
But also, the 2020 deniers can suck it and shut up. I have no time for violent anti-democratic radicals and neither should you.
The beam in your eye is about a 4x8 sheet of luan plywood.
I laid out arguments. Care to engage, or just gonna pass empty judgement?
What would be the point? If you don't grok what I have said already, another post isn't going to help.
Me: They did it to McCain and they did it to Mitt Freakin' Romney. You: That was not done with Romney.
Arrested Development Narrator: That was done with ROmney.
Here is the Atlantic (noted RW rag) making my exact argument, and noting that, among other things, "He’s the most conservative nominee that they’ve had going back to Goldwater,” top Obama aide David Plouffe said of Romney in 2012."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/the-democrats-who-cried-wolf/493928/
And if you google "Romney "most extreme"", one of the first hits is a DNC Video entitled, "Mitt Romney: The GOP's Most Extreme Candidate"
That opinion piece cites David Plouffe and 2 MoveOn contributors.
And then you cite a 55 second DNC video. Truly, the 2022 message.
Get out of here with this weak ass revisionism.
You think "performative silliness" is a defense?
Calling out the rampant election denialism on the left would help out with that.
What "rampant election denialism on the left ?"
There has been no election in which the Democrats behaved as odiously as the Trumpists.
You are equating some grumbling and complaining with Trump's determined campaign, including threatened violence.
That's nonsense.
Depressingly, Trump's hardcore supporters were even more gullible than those of Gore, Kerry and Hillary. But you shouldn't pretend that those antics did not set the stage for Trump. The Dominion "conspiracy" is almost a carbon copy of the Diebold "conspiracy" in 2004.
Essentially true, but some Dems, including Jamie Raskin in typical congressional hypocrisy, voted against seating electors for Trump's win. They also perpetuated the Russia hoax to first prevent Trump winning and, failing that, second to kneecap his presidency. So the shenanigans happen everywhere and this joke of an article's failure to acknowledge that renders it an exercise in preaching to the choir from the get go.
1) There was no "Russia hoax."
2) Not only was the Russia investigation not designed to "prevent Trump winning," but the FBI properly (unlike with Hillary's emails) kept it out of the election.
Among others the Russia Hoax was assisted by Kevin Clinesmith, the ex-FBI lawyer who falsified data on the Carter Paige secret multi-party wiretap warrant application; he not only did not spend even Martha Stewart time in prison for material perjury, he was not disbarred and thus may still practice law.
You would think that the FBI and DOJ would want to send a message regarding the requirement of honesty of their agents, in response to gross lies made in service of a false politically-driven narrative; but then again perhaps they did by slapping the guilty with a satin cushion instead any real penalty.
Neither the FBI nor DOJ decides whether someone is disbarred or how much time the person spends in prison. Clinesmith was properly fired and prosecuted. The rest is out of their hands.
Trump is certainly the worst, but it's a difference of degree and not of kind—the nadir of a long downward trajectory.
And there is a sizable conservative constituency willing to call him out for it—hopefully one large enough to remove him from the conversation altogether (though admittedly the recent election results are not cause for optimism on that front). Whereas Democrats like you seem to be constitutionally incapable of even mildly critiquing the bad actors in your own ranks.
+1
I'd say Gore and Clinton both conceding is a fairly fundamental difference. They're allowed to complain, just as anyone is, but there was a tendency for their own side to dismiss them as sore losers, and foam-flecked rage from the right every time Clinton opened her mouth. There's nothing whatsoever like the behaviour of Trump and his supporters to call out on the left.
What specifically are you referring to, Noscitur? Like, I didn't love the wanking about Hamilton Electors, but that did not amount to much at all beyond some dumbass twitter threads.
Well for starters, you have Krychek_2 engaging in election denialism in the comments on this very post...
What election?
You are so right. There never were demonstrations and rioting in the streets when the Dems lost. A crowd never tried to storm the Supreme court building and the leader of the party never threatened sitting justices with "you will reap the whirlwind" rhetoric. The FBI never colluded with Big Tech to spread lies in 2016, and suppress stories unfavorable to the Dems in 2020. Zuckerberg never spent a half billion dollars to buy election staff in key races. Election rules in Democratic strongholds were never relaxed illegally. None of those things happened. We imagined them all.
None of this happened, barring demonstrations after the election. The amount of lying you have to do to strain for equivalence is embarrassing. As for rhetoric, for fuck's sake, the right has been howling about civil war since the MAL search, the bloody ARCHIVES are getting death threats. Death threats have become the default response on the right to anything they don't like.
Well the thing is- he's not arguing in good faith.
He knows he has jack shit to work with and is just spinning a shit sandwich with it anyway.
There were no riots in 2016. There was like a car and a trashcan, nationwide.
The rest is bullshit you've been fed, and now regurgitate uncritically.
"no riots in 2016"
"A total of 214 people have been indicted so far on felony rioting charges in connection with the Inauguration Day protests in downtown Washington." CNN
The subsequent dismissals don't change the fact of the riot.
This is why we call you Gaslighto.
Come on, Bob. We have been over this. The use of that law does not mean there was ‘rioting in the streets.’
Where are the pictures? That is why the best story the media had was the car and trash an.
Right, they got violent, smashed windows, assaulted cops, set fire to stuff, and you stupidly insist that we can't call a violent protest with arson a "riot". Just because you want to pretend there weren't any riots when Trump was inaugurated. And not just in DC, either.
Like you don't know damned well the left has it's share and then some of violent extremists. You know just how STUPID you look, denying those riots happened?
This weak story without pictures and highlighting individual or small-group incidents really shows how much there wasn't a riot in 2017.
Clicking through, I see some scuffling and mutual melees. And then the story about Washington spends half it's length finding individual incidents across the nation.
The U.S. Secret Service, Washington police and other law enforcement agencies had about 28,000 officers in place to secure a roughly three-square-mile (7.8 square km) of the city.
Yeah, truly an environment ripe for a riot.
I know you still believe, Brett. But the stories of the riot of 2017 didn't go anywhere not because of a media coverup (as though the right would let that go), but rather it wasn't a thing.
In addition to what bernard11 said, whatever grousing Democrats may have engaged in about 2016 was ended by another election in 2020. 2016 is not only a dead horse, but the carcass has been thoroughly scavenged by the birds.
Unlike 2020, which Trump continues to make an issue of. There's a Republican running for Congress in my district who has already said that if elected she won't certify any results in 2024 that favor the Democrats because the 2020 election was stolen.
Which just so happened to end in the election of a Democrat. Whadaya think the grousing would have been like had it gone the other way?
Oh, is this one of the circumstances where it's ok to use the nuttiest of nut jobs as a proxy for their entire party? I keep losing track.
Oh, the same thing that actually did happen in 2004, which ended in the re-election of a Republican. The Democrats who had been complaining that the 2000 election was illegitimate understood that once 2000 had been confirmed by 2004, resulting in the re-election of George Bush, it was a dead issue. Had Trump been re-elected in 2020, the same thing would have happened. The question is will Republicans do the same if Biden is re-elected in 2024.
The problem with the nuttiest of nut jobs is that they keep winning Republican primaries.
Is this a joke? In 2005, Democrats in Congress—including January 6 committee chair Bennie Thompson—engaged in the exact same Electoral Count Act misconduct that the Trumpists tried in 2021.
No joke, just pure revisionism on your part:
"The move was not designed to overturn Bush's re-election, said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection.
"The objecting Democrats, all of whom are House members except Boxer, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems."
https://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote/
They still objected. Precedent set.
Most of the GOP in 2020 who voted not to certify only did it because it was hopeless, just like Boxer et al.
No, that's not true. Objecting because you are trying to overturn a democratic election, and objecting because there is something in the system itself, are not the same thing. We can have a discussion about whether the 2004 objections were the best way to go about it, but their intention was to make the system better, not overturn an election.
"intention was to make the system better,"
LOL You believe that?
Do you think the intent was to overturn the election?!
I do think with what we know now, that shouldn't happen again. But don't pretend that was anything like what happened in 2020.
What I believe is that Bob will adopt any argument, usually what aboutism, regardless of whether it conflicts with what he argued yesterday, to get the result he wants. 2004 and 2020 are not comparable. They just aren't.
"don't pretend that was anything like what happened in 2020"
Do you know what "precedent" means? 2020 built on 2004 and the Raskin attempt in 2016.
From small acorns come large oaks.
I'm sure the Democrats in 2005 (and 2017) didn't think they were going to successfully overturn the election. I'm sure most of the Republicans in 2021 didn't either (correctly, as it turns out). What's your point?
Bob, some of us can distinguish between acorns and trees.
I'm sure most of the Republicans in 2021 didn't either
That most is pretty load-bearing. Especially given the party's shift since Jan 06.
"That most is pretty load-bearing."
Isn't it, though? I'd say it's overloaded given the failed candidate himself clearly thought at least one of his acknowledged efforts to "overturn" the election should and would have succeeded. In fact, just today, he appears to think there is some chance he'll be declared the winner.
This isn't the behavior of someone making a political point without the intent of overturning the will of the people. That guy clearly wanted to overturn the will of the people. He expressly said so when he said Pence should have "overturned the election." That's what those words mean. You can try to claim he didn't mean what he said, but it is what he said. And it's what a majority of Republican voters think too, if polls on this issue and their 2022 primary winners are any indication.
Indeed, unlike some of the other Trumpkins here, Bob is honest enough to admit he's dishonest. He admits he has no principles and all he cares about is winning.
A call for reform versus a call to overturn an election? Same thing.
Can you expand on the circumstances where you think it's appropriate for a member of Congress to vote against certifying that the candidate who won the election should be the winner of the election?
If you’re talking about 2004 the Democrats said they weren’t trying to keep the Bush results from being certified. They were simply pausing the process to call attention to an issue.
I was fine with it until recent events taught me different. I'm not going to become retroactive, since no one else had the information I do now either.
Going forward I'm not a fan.
Just a total and amazing coincidence that you were fine with Democrats doing it and pouty about Republicans doing it. What are the odds?
What in the world could have made me change my mind? Must be blind partisanship!
Did you think this co,,met through?
I'm kind of the same way about the faithless elector thing. In 2016, I thought it was a neat strategy. But having seen the chaos of 2020, I have changed my mind and no longer support the idea of electors going their own way. It's just too far removed from the way our system actually works, and if it actually happened (that they picked someone else) it'd be a disaster. Even if it were done to avoid Trump.
I don't think it's appropriate for members of Congress to object to electoral vote counting merely as a means of drawing attention to an issue.
But it's still dishonest to compare what happened post-2020 election with any of the other examples. In 2005, for example, one representative and one Senator making an objection with the express purpose of drawing attention to any issue and expressly not aimed at challenging the results of the election. In 2021, there were multiple coordinated efforts to stop the counting of the electoral college votes in the hopes that they would, in tfg's words, "overturn" the election, with the participants including 139 House members (a majority of the Republican caucus), 8 Senators, and the then-President who was the failed candidate.
Yes, the 2005 objections were wrong, in that, posturing isn't what electoral college vote counting is for. But that doesn't make them anything like the 2021 objections which were part of a larger scheme including pressure on Pence to not count the votes to which there were objections, despite those objections failing to draw enough votes to prevail.
Political posturing can be wrong in the wrong place (2005). Trying to steal an election as the Republicans did in 2021 is a different animal altogether.
The Democrat running for governor of Georgia this year is still claiming that she won in 2018.
Has there been another election for governor in Georgia since 2018? My point is that once there's been another election, the previous election is a dead issue.
So if Trump officially drops the issue in October 2024, Saul Goodman? I didn't think so.
Trump is going to be claiming it was a stolen election for the next 20 years if he lives that long. If, in October 2024, for sake of argument, he found Jesus and publicly acknowledged that he's been lying all this time, it would somewhat mitigate the damage, which would be the best we could hope for by then.
It takes a mighty keen set of eyes to look at Stacey Abrams' claims that the Georgia election overseen by Kemp and Raffensperger was stolen from her as legitimate and acceptable (subject to a 4-year sell-by date), but to look at Trump's claims that the Georgia election overseen by Kemp and Raffensperger was stolen from him as seditious and beyond the pale.
Why is it so hard for you guys to say that Abrams was wrong?
Candidly, I suspect the election was stolen from Abrams, but assume for sake of argument that I'm wrong. She did not incite her followers to riot. She did not file a bunch of lawsuits that were promptly dismissed as frivolous. She did not try to overturn the results. She acted like a grownup.
It's not merely that claims were made; that's not the issue.
Seditionist!
And I think we're done here.
I take it you didn’t read the rest of the comment.
The point you are missing is that once if you concede that a major election (like a gubernatorial election in a high population state like GA) can be stolen, you have lost the argument. The "Stop the Steal" guys go from being "deluded fools" to "brave truth tellers." The only difference is which side your guy (or gal) was on.
I disagree with Abrams saying some of the things she said and refusing to concede.
However, as Krychek points out, it isn't the same thing.
Also, you ask: "Stacey Abrams' claims that the Georgia election overseen by Kemp and Raffensperger was stolen from her as legitimate and acceptable (subject to a 4-year sell-by date), but to look at Trump's claims that the Georgia election overseen by Kemp and Raffensperger was stolen from him"
Most obviously, Kemp and Raffensperger are members of Trump's party and so have no partisan interest in making determinations that undermined Trump's vote count. Kemp was Abrams' opponent.
But more importantly, it takes willful blindness not to see a conflict of interest in a person (Kemp) being in charge of the election process in which they are also a candidate.
Claiming a game was rigged and having your supporters threaten beat up the refs after the game and declare your team the winner (2021) is fundamentally different than pointing out that the foul calls were suspiciously lopsided and that the ref making those calls was also the coach of the opposing team (Georgia governor's race 2018).
If you don't have evidence to change the result, I think it is wrong to refuse to concede and make claims of a stolen election. But, there is wrong, and then there is the deliberate attempt to dismantle our democracy and rebuild it in Viktor Orban style.
What a curious and convenient statute of limitations
One fundamental disconnect here is that because this is about politics, there's a facile self-serving assertion that all claims must be treated as equally credible or equally false, just as apparently Trump is supposed to be pre-emptively granted immunity from any charges arising from the current investigation because Clinton was not charged after being investigated. I haven't been following Abrams' election claims, but Trump's have been subjected to multiple audits and court cases - there is simply no factual evidence for any of them, yet he carries on making them, and so do his supporters. Because of that we'resupposed to simply dismiss Abrams claims out of balance with no recourse to any facts and/or evidence but simply because she is a Democrat? That's not balance. That's the opposite of balance.
If you think there's any evidence that Stacey Abrams won the 2018 election, I'd invite you to share it.
Perhaps Brett Bellmore can point you to some sources?
And you’re missing the point. Stacey Abrams subjectively believes her election was stolen, but unlike Trump she acted like a grown up. Even if she’s wrong, she at least didn’t incite a riot or threaten election officials, unlike Trump.
I heard arguments around the time of the Clinton investigation that we shouldn't lock her up even if she was guilty of something because in America we don't jail the losers of an election.
No, that's not what you heard. What you heard was people pointing out that a candidate leading cheers of "lock her up" is disqualifying when the person to whom he is referring is his opponent and has not been charged, much less convicted of any crime. Republicans like to throw around the "banana republic" phrase these days, but that, leading chants of "lock her up", is true banana republic stuff.
What we don't do is, after a Republican helmed FBI has decided there is insufficient evidence to charge Democrat.
That's what you heard, because that's what was said at the time.
The Democrat running for governor of Georgia this year is still claiming that she won in 2018.
And calling for thugs to attack the state capitol?
No, she isn't. She's a sore loser, but she's claiming that she would've won if the election were run differently, not that she actually did.
"whatever grousing Democrats may have engaged in about 2016 was ended by another election in 2020."
So the cutoff date for grousing about the 2020 election is 2024?
That might be a cutoff date for mild complaining in press interviews or using it as a basis to call for reform, maybe. Of course, that's not what's going on, not even remotely.
Has the MSM put together two weeks without somebody with a major platform bringing the alleged "Big Lie" in some way shape or form?
Trump may have the biggest platform to argue that the last election was stolen; he's not the only one keeping it alive.
"The acute crisis confronting American democracy right now is caused by a movement within one of the nation's two major political parties."
This would be true except for the fact that the Democrats alleged that every presidential election they lost since 2000 was stolen. In 2000, we had, among other things, trick ballots that induced Florida snowbirds to vote for Pat Buchanan. In 2004 Diebold swung Ohio to Bush. Then everything was perfect in 2008 and 2012. But in 2016, the Russians meddled and caused Trump to win.
This does not excuse what Trump did and continues to do, but provides some context as to the cleanliness of everybody's hands. This is particularly true when you see the Democrats supporting "denialist" primary bids, because they see them as easier to beat in the general.
I am profoundly depressed that Trump's lies have taken hold more strongly than did Gore's, Kerry's or Hillary's, but let's take a clear view of the history, before we rip up the 1st Amendment.
let's take a clear view of the history
I'm all for that. Gore, Kerry, and Clinton all conceded, Kerry and Clinton doing so within a day of the election. Gore conceded, quite graciously, after the SCOTUS decision.
There was no concerted campaign of denials and lawsuits and lies and violence supported by any of these.
There's your clear view.
Your comparison is idiotic.
Your comparison is idiotic.
But inevitable. They can't help themselves.
AFAIC fundamentally they don't really believe that people other than themselves have electoral legitimacy but they know enough not to say it out loud, so they have to resort to propaganda.
You seem to think that acting thorough amanuenses somehow absolves the principals. I do not.
If Trump had "grudgingly conceded" but then had a bunch of minions keep appearing on talk shows grousing about conspiracies and stolen elections, would that have been much better? Because that is exactly what Gore, Kerry and Hillary! did.
I doubt there would have been a January 6 had Trump conceded, grudgingly or otherwise.
It probably would not have been nearly as bad, but as Noscitur said above, this is a difference in degree, not kind.
This is a matter of partisans viewing reality through extremely tinted glasses. It is not motes and beams -- both sides have beams in their eyes.
Look at the BLM protests. Many on the Left here saw them as righteous yet mostly peaceful expressions of justifiable outrage. Too put it in Trump terms, they were "Perfect Protests." Most on the Right, while potentially conceding that there may be some legit grievances, saw widespread violence, looting and rioting, often condoned or minimized by sympathetic government officials. Conversely (and unfortunately), many of those same people on the Right see Jan 6 as righteous yet mostly peaceful expressions of justifiable outrage, ignoring the genuine violence and at least symbolic (if not real) threat to our electoral system.
It is not good.
You would probably consider me a leftist and I think there are a lot of BLM rioters who belong in jail on arson and other charges, and there are a lot of other leftists out there who agree with me. And I say that as one who thinks many of their complaints against the police are legitimate.
But I don't see the BLM riots as being a useful analogy to January 6. On January 6 we essentially had a sitting president incite a riot. That has never, ever happened in our history; that's brand new. And as bad as the BLM riots were, they weren't instigated by an inflammatory speech designed to enrage the crowd by a high office holder in the Democratic party. Yes, I know, Maxine Waters shot her mouth off, but I don't consider her on the same level as the President. For that reason, January 6 is pretty much in a class all by itself.
"...I think there are a lot of BLM rioters who belong in jail on arson and other charges, and there are a lot of other leftists out there who agree with me."
I do not doubt you personally on this. Unfortunately, I heard very few on the Left say this out loud while the riots/protests were going on. Basically, they condemned the violence at about the same level as Trump proclaimed his standing order regarding the declassification of all documents going to Mar-a-Lago during jhis presidency.
One of the things that makes discussing politics on this board and elsewhere (especially over the interwebs) is that nobody is willing to give an inch because nobody thinks the other side is arguing in good faith.
'Basically, they condemned the violence at about the same level as Trump proclaimed his standing order'
Which is appropriate, because in the one instance, Democrats roundly condemned violence at BLM protests, and on the other hand there is absolutely no indication that it ever actually happened but you have magically made them equivalent. One side might have actual grounds for thinking the other is acting in bad faith.
Please define “roundly”, because many mayors in large west-coast cities certainly did not take _action_ against the continual month-after-month violence in any meaningful way.
If by “roundly” you mean that much air passed over many vocal cords causing sounds that resemble condemnation to issue forth, then _perhaps_ you’re correct in that narrow sense. However for an elected executive (such as a Mayor, or District Attorney) there is actually a point at which the lack of physical action speaks much more loudly than mere vibrations in the air. “CHAZ”, “CHOP” in Seattle and that blue locale’s homicide rate provide a useful example of violence tolerated and abetted for political reasons.
Without taking anything in your rant as true, lets say: any condemnation. At all.
Because the right, and Trump specifically, has been playing quiet and cutsey with political violence for some years now.
It is a difference of kind. The candidate conceding and the candidate not conceding are fundamentally different things.
Look at the BLM protests. Many on the Left here saw them as righteous yet mostly peaceful expressions of justifiable outrage. Too put it in Trump terms, they were "Perfect Protests."
This is stupid. A significant difference is that no one called the BLM protests perfect. Your need to pretend that decrying riots while praising peaceful protestors is equivalent to those claiming the January 6 rioters were mere trespassers is telling.
Most on the Right, while potentially conceding that there may be some legit grievances, saw widespread violence, looting and rioting, often condoned or minimized by sympathetic government officials.
Meaning, they watched Fox News rather than seeing what actually happened.
ignoring the genuine violence and at least symbolic (if not real) threat to our electoral system.
Not symbolic. It was real. Trump has said Pence "should have overturned the election". He just today said he should be declared the winner. This isn't symbolic stuff. He and his supporters had ever intent to undermine our electoral system. That's what a disturbing number of Republican candidates for office in 2022 expressly told primary voters. (One saying they wouldn't vote to certify any vote for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2024, regardless of the official vote.) Pretending these things are the same isn't evenhandedness, it is willful blindness.
acting thorough amanuenses
You need to go full nutpicking-cum-conspiracizing to even approach what Trump openly did.
Yes!
But no, that's not what happened in the other years. No "minions" did any such thing in those other elections. Gore/Kerry/Hillary did not send people out to make those arguments; that would've been weird since they had already conceded. Gore/Kerry/Hillary did not set out to run out of the Democratic Party everyone who wouldn't back them, declaring it a victory when those people lost primaries.
It is absolutely a real problem when large swathes of people become willing to believe that elections are only valid when their side wins, but I can't take this article seriously when the first paragraph says it's purely a Republican problem, and the second says that the article shouldn't be taken as a partisan message. Really? Just the use of the word "denialism" is partisan. Democrats have used that particular form of Reductio-ad-Hitlerum since the 60s. A person who can use that word unironically and then claim to be non-partisan is living in an airtight bubble and beginning to suffer from oxygen deprivation.
But it is purely a Republican problem. The GOP response to the electoral loss in 2020 is orders of magnitude worse than the Democrats' response to losses in 2000 and 2016. Take a simple example - did any Democratic candidates lose or risk losing primaries (or retire from Congress) because they refused to accept that those two elections were stolen? Did Democrats hold large numbers of press conferences, hold fake legislative hearings, insist on multiple audits (by "friendlies"), break into voting machines?
And did Democratic state legislatures change counting rules so that they could later use count swings as evidence of stealing?
So STFU with the fake equivalence.
If Trump had won in 2020 you actually think the Democrats would have quietly accepted it? Seriously? Like they did in 2016?
From my read the people you’re arguing with are going out of there way to say there’s not an equivalence. Trump was worse. But you and your side here are trying to deny there’s any similarity. Which is bullshit. There is plenty of similarity.
This won’t be fixed if both sides don’t play. Your side appears to me to be no more eager than the other. The fact that the other side has a loud scoundrel making the most noise doesn’t change that.
Yes. There would have wailing and gnashing of teeth on an epic scale, maybe demonstrations, but Biden would have conceded. It would not have become a basic tenet of any Democratic candidate running for office that Biden really won.
If Trump had won in 2020 you actually think the Democrats would have quietly accepted it? Seriously? Like they did in 2016?
Counterfactuals prove nothing except the worldview of the one using them to try and prove something.
Great - we know now you think Dems are as bad as the GOP. No real evidence of that but your certainty, though.
And did Democratic state legislatures change counting rules so that they could later use count swings as evidence of stealing?
I don't think you want to get into discussions about changing election rules after 2020. It's plausible--barely--that all the hair-on-fire rule changes about mail voting, vote harvesting etc were nobly-intentioned efforts to make sure people could vote during the pandemic, but they sure also would have facilitated fraud. That's an issue whether or not serious fraud took place.
"hold fake legislative hearings,"
John Conyers held a phony hearing on the 2004 election. Even isued a book long "report"
What Went Wrong in Ohio: The Conyers Report on the 2004 Presidential Election
Authors United States. Congress. House. Committee on the Judiciary, John Conyers, Gore Vidal
Editors John Conyers, Gore Vidal, Anita Miller
Contributor Gore Vidal
Publisher Academy Chicago Publishers, 2005
ISBN 089733535X, 9780897335355
Length 142 pages
This fascinating and disturbing book is the official record of testimony taken by the Democratic Members and Staff of the House Judiciary Committee, presided over by Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the Ranking Member. Originally released in January, 2005 by the Committee and now available in print for the first time.
Witnesses included both Republicans and Democrats, elected officials, voting machine company employees, poll observers, and many voters who testified about the harassment they endured, some of which led to actual vote repression.
While shreds of the electoral chaos in Ohio were reported in the press, the issue soon faded from public view. What Went Wrong In Ohio provides new insights into the abuse and manipulation of electronic voting machines and the arbitrary and illegal behavior of a number of elected and election officials which effectively disenfranchised tens of thousands of voters in order to change the outcome of an election.
What's your point?
Don't have one - posting the text of your link for others to read and decide.
Don't be so jumpy!
The purpose of a primary election is to allow each party to choose their candidate for the general election. This has been bastardized by open primary laws so that people can choose to vote for the candidate in one party least likely to win against the candidate of that voter’s party. (This bought us Trump, whose win in 2016 was a testament to how much people disliked Hillary.) We need to return to having the best each party has to offer rather than the Machiavellian mess we have today.
We also need to simplify the elections, not add more clever and confusing variations. If the plurality selects one among several candidates, so be it.
I still don't think the public should be paying for primary elections. If you are correct, and "the purpose of the primary election is to allow each party to choose their candidate," then let the parties themselves pay for it.
I am surprised the VC published this claptrap, and alarmed that the head of Ohio State's election law department is this derangedly partisan. There is no constitutional principle these clowns will not throw aside in their desire to game the system.
Them's some scary clowns...
"derangedly partisan"
He though the assignment was how to "protect Democrats", it makes perfect sense then.
Reminds me of "How To Serve Humans".
Ranked choice voting in the general election and no primaries is the only way. Primaries enable more extreme candidates as we are seeing now with the primaries-not so much from within their party, but the opposing party looking to sabotage their opposition.
You realize that Alaska still hasn't finished counting ballots from its "ranked choice" primary.
Probably the worst way evr conceived of to hold an election.
Perhaps people wouldn't view it as a "partisan endeavor" if all these academics who are in a state of hysteria about the 2020 election, had not stood in absolute science when Democrats used the Electoral Count Act to challenge certification after the elections of 2000, 2004, and 2016. Nothing is ever viewed as a problem by academics until Republicans do it. They view it as partisan because it is.
Were the election results of 2020 overturned? Were they almost overturned? Only in the minds of those who want to turn the events of January 6 into the Reichstag Fire. And if you honestly think the Congress was on the verge of overturning the election, then it was the "insurrectionists" that stopped the process.
As for the "Reform Act", it will fundamentally change nothing. Obviously, if a sinister Congress is intent on not counting certain electoral votes, it is not going to feel constrained by a statute. "Oh, we can't challenge these votes because our false, pretextual reason is not among the reasons enumerated in the statue. I guess our efforts have been foiled!"
If "virtually all" Arizona Democrats would have preferred Robson, perhaps the party shouldn't have gone out of its way to help her opponent win the primary?
The Florida court divined the meaning of dimpled ballots. New Jersey's court literally re-wrote the election code after Sen. Torricelli's resignation in the late summer of 2004. The courts in both Wisconsin and Pennsylvania have also re-written their state codes after election day. In 2008 Minnesota's court required as many Hennepin County recounts as needed to push Al Franken past Norm Coleman. What is this "as required by law" of which you speak?
As I noted previously regarding the Florida 2000 election -
Its very difficult to get dimpled ballots when punching one ballot at a time.
Very easy to get dimpled ballots & hanging chads when punching multiple ballots at one time .
As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. The very same voting equipment that those Florida counties were using in 2000 were hand-me-down stuff from Maryland, and I am very familiar with it on a first-hand basis. We had dimpled ballots and hanging chads all the time, it was the worst, most confusing election system I've ever seen. Maryland moved to a Diebolt touchscreen, which they have now discarded in favor of paper ballots and an optical scan tabulator.
Alpheus W Drinkwater
August.30.2022 at 11:26 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. The very same voting equipment that those Florida counties were using in 2000 were hand-me-down stuff from Maryland, and I am very familiar with it on a first-hand basis."
First hand knowledge - then you should grasp the physical perimeters of my statement. It was noted in the Florida recount that a high percentage of the dimpled ballots lacked scraping on the paper from the stylis
No, it wasn't. Nobody noted that. You've made it up.
This presumes upset with the voting BS is the primary concern of these voters. Good luck beating that drum.
If Lake wins, that means that a majority prefer him regardless of whether he is an election denialist or not. The citizens of Arizona will determine in November whether "election denialism" is a deciding factor or not.
Ultimately, the author is suggesting that we change the system to get the outcome that he prefers. That doesn't seem to be a cure for the each side's general disinclination to accept election results as "valid" if their candidate loses.
State supreme courts are often rather partisan. Why should we force Congress to trust them?
If the Wisconsin Supreme Court had decided that part of the absentee ballot statute which says "Ballots cast in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be counted. Ballots counted in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be included in the certified result of any election" actually means what it says, and thus thrown out a bunch of absentee ballots, Congress should have been forced to abide by that? What if they decided that they couldn't determine exactly which absentee ballots had been improperly counted, and threw out all of them just to be sure? Should Congress just have to sit there and take it when an election is actually being stolen?
I understand the desire to use a supposedly neutral third party like the courts. The problem is, not only are they already not neutral, but the more power you give them, the more likely it is that they become a target of those who would influence the system.
Honestly, this sounds more like those rails they use on carnival rides so that kids can think they're steering a car, while not actually having any control over where it goes. Not "guard" rails, "guide" rails.
The moment you start talking about how changing the system would alter what kind of people get elected, that starts to become obvious.
I mean, *I* understand how IRV works, and I do believe it could be honestly implemented. In theory it's a pretty good system, too: In a theoretical world where the voters devote a huge amount of time to researching and thinking about the candidates, in order to develop individual, considered, rank order preferences to use on the ballot.
The theoretical world we don't remotely live in, and everybody promoting IRV knows damned well we don't live in. Which makes IRV something of a scam, no?
In a real world, you'd be better off just holding a NON-instant runoff election a couple of weeks later, so people would actually have time to form those opinions once they knew they were needed.
But another problem is that it is VERY hard to implement in a transparent manner. You're doing math in the background! Try convincing suspicious people the math was done honestly, and that it's perfectly legit that the guy who led the first place votes lost.
To even have a chance, you'd have to make public the full ballot each person voted, anonymized, sure, but every full ballot. Ideally as it's cast. That way people could independently run the math, to know the official results weren't faked. Is anybody doing that?
We can’t use that system, the people are too stupid!
Now let me tell you how important it is to listen to those who think 2020 was stolen based only on Trump yelling about it.
You persist in thinking that it's enough to have a system a bunch of college math majors who were paying attention would trust. For some reason you don't care that the population we actually have would be suspicious.
It matters if people trust elections. It matters a lot. And the effects of them not trusting elections are there whether or not they're justified in not trusting them.
So you need a system that will be trusted by the population we actually have. That means avoiding doing anything fancy.
Your contempt for the people of this country to not trust math is noted.
Me? I think the people that wouldn't trust the math are the same people who already are down with distrusting any election their side doesn't win.
So nothing lost on that front.
I don't know if this is the key to election reform or not, but 'Too many Real Americans won't trust math' is really some elitism and not a good argument.
Boy I thought I had heard it all but you saying "the people are fucking morons and we need to keep a clearly inferior system because of that" is one heck of a hot take.
I suppose, loosely speaking, "counting" could be described as "math."
Progressives are why we had the Prohibition amendment, Internal Tax and popular election of Senators. I dread what these progressives are proposing
The politics of 100 years ago have very little to do with today, so weird flex.
A more truthful title for this piece would be "Three Proposed Changes to Protect Election Fraud from Correction or Even Visibility."
What I get from the comments is that a bunch of people are trying to "both sides" this and say it's not a big deal.
To you I say- go fuck yourselves.
The next beer hall putsch might not be so unsuccessful. But then again, I kind of expect a lot of the people here to be on the side of the fascists anyhow.
We say, go fuck yourself.
This was a four hour mostly peaceful protest, not any type of overthrow.
But if we have one, it'll be from the left, not the right anyway. They are the fascists.
Am I on Vox or Reason?