The Volokh Conspiracy
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North Carolina State Supreme Court Makes a Bold Move
The court declares that legislators elected in gerrymandered districts cannot fully exercise the powers of their office
The North Carolina state supreme court likes to play with fire.
Just a few months ago some Republicans were talking about the possibility of impeaching members of that court as it deliberated on whether to strike down legislative maps drawn after the 2020 census as unconstitutional partisan gerrymanders. The court eventually split along partisan lines to strike down the Republican drawn maps, and the case is now before the U.S. Supreme Court.
Today the state court again split along partisan lines in another extraordinary case. The electoral map that the state legislature had drawn after the 2010 census had previously been declared unconstitutional due to racial gerrymanders, but legislators were allowed to be elected and serve out their terms until a new map could be approved. The court today declared that those legislators had only limited authority given the flawed maps and some legislative tasks they were not allowed to perform. Specifically, the majority determined that the legislature was barred from proposing some constitutional amendments. Although the case was remanded back to the trial court for further proceedings, the clear implication is that the state constitutional amendment that had been proposed by that legislature and ratified by the voters that had empowered the legislature to adopt a voter ID law is invalid.
The principles of popular sovereignty and democratic self-rule as embodied in article I, sections 2 and 3 mean that individuals can only exercise the sovereign power that the people have transmitted to the legislature if they validly hold legislative office. The constitution defines and structures the processes by which individuals assume offices that permit them to exercise sovereign power, and sovereign power can only be lawfully exercised by individuals who have come into office through the processes established by the constitution for that very purpose. Burke v. Elliott (NC 1844). The legitimacy of any individual officer's claim to exercise sovereign power depends upon the legitimacy of the process by which that individual came to assume the office to which sovereign power has been delegated.
Consistent with the principles of popular sovereignty and democratic self-rule, only the people can change the way sovereign power is allocated and exercised within North Carolina's system of government. And, through their constitution, the people assigned the General Assembly a vital role in the amendment process. Specifically, the constitution authorizes the General Assembly to initiate the process of enacting constitutional amendments by "adopt[ing] an act submitting the propos[ed] [constitutional amendments] to the qualified voters of the State for their ratification or rejection," provided that "three-fifths of all the members of each house shall adopt [the] act." is undisputed that three-fifths of the members of each house adopted acts submitting the proposals to add the Voter ID and Tax Cap Amendments to the North Carolina Constitution, and that a majority of voters ratified both amendments in 2018. The sole question before us is whether the legislators who passed the bills submitting these two amendments to the voters could validly exercise the authority conferred upon the legislature by the people in article XIII, section 4.
The court lays out a new test for determining whether a constitutional amendment proposed by a legislature and ratified by the voters should nonetheless be struck down as constitutionally invalid.
Thus, when the votes of legislators elected due to an unconstitutional gerrymander could have been decisive in enacting a bill proposing a constitutional amendment, courts must assess whether there is a substantial risk that the challenged amendment will (1) immunize legislators from democratic accountability; (2) perpetuate the ongoing exclusion of a category of voters from the political process; or (3) intentionally discriminate against a particular category of citizens who were also discriminated against in the political process leading to the legislators' election. If any of these factors are present, then the balance of equities requires the court to invalidate the challenged amendment. If these factors are not present—or if the legislators elected due to an unconstitutional gerrymander were not so numerous as to be potentially decisive in the vote to put a proposed amendment to the people—the challenged amendment must be left in place.
The majority concludes,
"We should ever be mindful that the Constitution to a great extent is the rudder to keep the ship of state from off the rocks and reefs." Hinton v. Lacy (NC 1927). Although the questions raised in this appeal are novel, the answers can be found in the principles that are the foundation of North Carolina's system of government as expressed in multiple provisions of the North Carolina Constitution, the people's fundamental law. The people have reserved to themselves the power to amend or replace these principles and provisions. While they have assigned the legislature a role in the amendment process, the potentially transformative consequences of amendments that could change basic tenets of our constitutional system of government warrant heightened scrutiny of amendments enacted through a process that required the participation of legislators whose claim to represent the people's will has been disputed. Consistent with these constitutional principles and provisions, we conclude that acts proposing constitutional amendments passed by a legislature composed of a substantial number of legislators elected from unconstitutionally racially gerrymandered legislative districts, after the unlawfulness of those districts has been conclusively established, are not automatically shielded by application of the de facto officer doctrine.
The three justices in dissent practically begged the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn this case as a potential violation of the republican guarantee clause of the U.S. Constitution.
Breathtaking. Will be interesting to see what comes next.
The opinion can be found here. I have already edited the case for the companion site to the Howard Gillman, Mark Graber, and Keith Whittington American Constitutionalism casebook. Happy to share it for anyone interested.
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"By any means necessary" is the leftist motto.
Leftists try "by any means necessary."
Race-targeting voter suppression, unconstitutional gerrymandering, and delusional conspiracy theories for the gullible and uneducated constitute the bigoted Republican conservative playbook.
Where is the hope for America?
Just a few months ago some Republicans were talking about the possibility of impeaching members of that court as it deliberated on whether to strike down legislative maps drawn after the 2020 census as unconstitutional partisan gerrymanders.
High time, the legislators did its duty to protect the public from the lowest scumbags in the country, the toxic little tyrants on the appellate courts. The Congress must begin to impeach judges for their decisions.
It's Brett who is talking about lynching judges. No leftist he.
Judges in name only
You want to lynch them too?
There are other remedies available still.
Replacement will solve everything.
I think this is going to resolve itself pretty quickly, perhaps through impeachment, and probably through an election.
There are 2 seats on the NC Supreme Court up on the November ballot, both Democrats.
This could really motivate a lot of voters, especially voters who resent being told their vote on a constitutional amendment doesn't matter.
The NC House can step in and impeach a justice and they will be likely be suspended until the Senate has a trial, I say likely because the law says "officers" are suspended, are judicial officials officers?
But no matter being impeached and awaiting trial may affect the judges election prospects.
Plus I wonder about the proprietary of a justice making a ruling on a case that will affect their own election less than 90 days before the election, this might explain why they didn't make a final ruling and remanded the case for a lower court to do the dirty work.
If the legislature impeaches one or more of the judges the same NC Supreme Court majority will rule that the *iillegal* legislature does not have the power to impeach NC Supreme Court justices.
Extraordinary? That's 'nearest lamp post' material.
No, it isn't Brett. You can tell because it's not happening.
This is the first time I've seen you go down the dumbass path of the keyboard warrior. So that's not a good sign for you.
Yes, it absolutely is. This is judicial usurpation of the highest order. It calls for immediate impeachment, they can resort to the lamp post when the majority on the court rules that the legislature has lost that power, too.
Yeah, no.
There was racial gerrymandering - these legislators are invalid. Did you miss that? If you think that's judicial usurpation, you need to go waaaaaay back and lynch a bunch of dead guys.
So, again, you're actually super pissed about remedy.
Are the laws these invalid legislators pass invalid? No, thanks to the de facto office doctrine.
Are all the amendments they suggest invalid? They change fundamental law in a way an ordinary statute does not. BUT the court says most of those are fine.
Only those amendments that "alter the way the people's sovereign power is allocated, and exercised by the people's representatives" are invalid, as an illegitimate legislature monkeying with that machinery is threatening self rule.
BUT even then, whether the policy choices burdened the particular group burdened by the unconstitutional gerrymander.
This is not what you think it is, unless you can show more work than just shooting off. Quit the melodrama, read the case, and think of what you would do in the alternative.
Did you miss that the people of the state voted to ratify the amendments? Did that somehow slip your attention? The court didn't just presume to render part of the legislature only partly elected, they decided to disenfranchise a majority of the state's voters.
But the amendments wouldn't be before the people but for the illegal legislature.
Are you going to declare that all referenda are valid, regardless of how many rules they broke to get on the ballot?
They didn't break any rules. The decision to hold the election under the existing map made the result valid. FULLY valid. There's no provision for people to be partly elected.
FULLY valid
Says you. The court says differently.
There's no provision for people to be partly elected.
That's not how remedies work - courts don't need a provision; remedy is part of the judicial power. Maybe this isn't within that power, but you can't just ipse dixit that.
You’re giving no credibility to the highly partisan legislature here and all of it to the highly partisan court.
There is no good guy here. Just politicians trying to gain political advantage for their side. Putting their parties before the people.
May they all burn in hell.
? It's not a credibility question. I presume both parties are acting in good faith. This is about the interplay of branches of government.
I think gerrymandering is bad, but it's absolutely within the state of play, but only up to a point. Thus, the court has the power to say if a gerrymander has gone too far. That is long held and undeniable.
And the court can craft remedies for the wrongs it finds. This is also undeniable.
But these remedies can also go too far. Is that the case here?
My initial take is no - the court is allowing lawmaking to continue, even constitutional amendments. But not amendments that effect the franchise of the group previously burdened by the illegal gerrymander. That seems pretty reasonable to me. But it is early days yet and I may be missing something.
Yeah, in your world "judicial remedy" is a magical incantation that allows the judiciary to strip the other branches of their constitutional powers, selectively even.
Let's see if the legislature agrees.
Brett,
Only after it has been found that those legislators were elected under a gerrymandered system that stripped the ultimate sovereigns, the people, of their power. But you apparently have no problem with people elected under an unconstitutional map participating in a process that further entrenches their ill-gotten power.
To avoid that, you have to argue that the initial map wasn't an unconstitutional gerrymander. But the entity with the constitutional power to decide that question decided it.
It's not an easy question. This is a high stakes game. But the legislators who tried to disenfranchise one racial group in order to gain partisan advantage are the original bad actors which created a situation in which there aren't great solutions.
And, no, I don't buy that the amendment being ratified by the voters cleanses the process of that original sin. There is a reason the legislature is tasked with proposing amendments. Even if you disagree with the court's remedy, it is not a good look for the legislature.
Because he’s highly partisan.
The districting map was used because the legislature proposed it, and the court order that it be used. Now they don't like the result coming from the people elected to the districts the court itself demanded, so they are attempting to curtail some - and only some - of the powers of the lawmakers elected from those districts.
If the map was illegitimate in the first place, it was the duty of the court to reject it, period.
Seems those with the power to decide the question in NC disagree with your ipse dixit, Toranth. And they wrote a lengthy, well-argued opinion on the subject.
But your "nuh-uh" is noted for all the worth it has.
Beg the question much?
The court in this case forced the problem, and now uses their own decision as a justification for creating an extra-constitutional sub-class of legislators, whose powers are ad hoc determined by the same court as whim strikes it.
And you think this is legitimate?
"That's not how remedies work - courts don't need a provision"
Yes...they need a provision.
The courts can't say "well...you're illegally a legislature. We're the new legislature". Technically that's a "remedy". But there's no provision anywhere for that, and it's a blatant abuse of power.
What's the provision for the exclusionary rule?
It's comments like these that have me convinced sarc is a very long running troll account.
They broke no rules that existed at the time the amendment was proposed.
Which is how judicial review tends to work, right? Legislature thought it was acting constitutionally, but it wasn't and the court invalidates the law.
You didn't have a problem when courts ruled that election law was violated during the 2020 election but the votes would count anyway.
Yeah, that's right. Because different courts can apply different remedies tailored to the situation. Since in that case the election would have remained as it was, that seems the proper remedy to me.
The court spends a lot of time explaining why it chose the remedy it did in that case - it's pretty interesting, you should read it!
"Yeah, that's right. "
Because "my side" won.
Because your side lost every court case and recount and audit.
Nige,
There you go again. You just spout nonsense based on you made-up, deliberate misinformation..
"my side" has not lost any courts cases, because it has not filed any court cases. Your assumptions are horse hockey just like most of the opinions that derive from them
The only reason Biden is president because Democrat-led states said "but COVID!" and broke their own election laws. It's precious watching you whine about how things "get on the ballot". Literally zero self-awareness.
Zero awareness of your alternate reality. What you described isn't what happened.
Pennsylvania had a split government. And your side made this argument in court and lost. You continuing to believe that they "broke their own election laws" carries less weight than the opinions of the bodies constitutionally authorized to make that determination.
Arizona was controlled by Republicans.
George was controlled by Republicans.
Wisconsin had a split government. Again, your theory was tested in court and lost.
But even so, gaining Wisconsin and Pennsylvania still wouldn't have gotten Trump the win. The premise of your outrage is flawed.
Oh wow. Brett Bellmore, who doesn’t give a crap about voter disenfranchisement if we’re discussing the electoral college or two senators per state, has suddenly decided that disenfranchising voters is a bad thing after all.
Here’s a thought. Maybe the NC legislature could stop racial gerrymandering.
I got to vote for a senator. You got to vote for a senator. Everybody gets to vote for a senator. No disenfranchisement at all.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids both rich and poor to steal bread, sleep under bridges, or beg in the streets.”
And, indeed, only idiots think that if the law abandons that equality, it's the poor who will get the better deal.
Whoosh. Entirely missing the point of the quote.
It's a meaningless pablum, often cited by people attempting to avoid supporting the principle of equality before the law, usually in favor of 'equity' or some other form of discrimination.
One the argument involved mulch and Brett pretending that the fact that each voter in the United States does not have equal voting power by virtue of various anti-democratic mechanisms is somehow "equality."
And now here you are doing it too.
Whether you think the electoral college is wise or not, it doesn't ensure equality among voters. it quite clearly ensures California voters are not equal to Montana voters.
NOVA I said there was no disenfranchisement. And there was none.
You've completely failed to defend the idiotic quote you were supporting, and instead decided to attribute to me something I didn't say.
How about you actually addressing what I said, and try to justify the stupid phrase K_2 was pushing as some sort of argument or deep thought, rather than creating a straw man to attack me?
Brett Bellmore entirely disagreeing with the point of the quote.
mulch,
Do you deny that the purpose of the racial gerrymander was to weaken the political power of the disfavored racial groups?
If you don't deny it, that is an admission that loses this argument.
If you do deny it, that's an even worse admission.
Toranth,
You ignore Krychek_2's quote which was clearly skewering a system in which there is emphatically not equality. As I pointed out, people in Montana getting to vote for 2 senators and people in California getting to vote for 2 senators is not equality. Thus, the objection that people using that quote don't actually want equality doesn't apply here where it was used in a context where there obviously is not equality under the law. Some people have more political power than others based on where they live which is heavily influenced by the accident of where they were born.
Maybe you stay on topic and we can have a conversation.
NOVA, I object to the quote because it's meaningless feel-good bullshit that exists entirely to distract from whatever the topic at hand was.
It's precisely as on topic to object to the use of the quote as it is to use it in the first place.
As for the topic at hand - the equal representation of states in the Senate - well. You've defined it as unfair, and therefore declare it as unfair because you've defined it that way. The Senators exist to represent their state, and each state gets 2. Sounds pretty equal with that definition, right? Why is that one not acceptable?
Do you apply the same rules to the House? Should the smaller states be denied representation entirely, because it is "unfair" to guarantee one representative?
If that's ok, how much population variance is allowed before the differences become problematic? House districts can easily vary by tens of thousands of people.
Brett's position is noted.
However, the point of the quote is that entire socio-economic-political systems are set up to advantage the powerful and then, often, the powerful who benefit will preen about how everyone, whether overfed or starving, is equally prevented from stealing bread. The point of the quote is to skewer systems that pretend to equality, but, in fact, are very unjust. If you build a society with rules such that some people have to choose between stealing bread and starving, then a law that penalizes anyone who steals bread is just enforcing the inequality, while pretending to equality.
You can argue whether any particular system fits that description, but it's a valid criticism of at least some systems.
Your objection to those who use the quote seems to be that it implies that they want to abandon equality before the law as a principle. That is, frankly, an idiotic interpretation.
"these legislators are invalid."
Heh, got me.
You became a parody account so gradually I didn't pick up on it until now.
Pretty sure you know what I mean.
I think this is the pithiest encapsulation of my current thinking: I'm not sure this is the right remedy, but I think it's ridiculous to say 'You disenfranchised the blacks. Don't do it again! In the meantime, feel free to disenfranchise them in other ways.'
"There was racial gerrymandering - these legislators are invalid. "
If they're invalid, then they are fully invalid.
You can't "partially" invalidate someone. That's like having a President after an election who can only use "some" of the presidential powers, not all of them.
Can you imagine if after an election, a case when to the SCOTUS, and they said the President was still President...but just couldn't veto bills. Or sign them. But could do executive orders and control the military.
It makes no sense.
You can't "partially" invalidate someone. That's like having a President after an election who can only use "some" of the presidential powers, not all of them.
You mean like a legislature passing a law binding an executive agency? Or the judiciary saying that some consent decree is invalid?
You keep saying this, but you have zero evidence for it being true.
But look what you had to do to make your point. You had to invoke the legislature passing a new law, not the judiciary. Or have the judiciary say a degree was invalid. Not "partially" invalid, but completely invalid.
Let's put it this way Sarcastro. Do you really believe that if the SCOTUS decided a president was illegitimately elected, it would be perfectly within the SCOTUS's power to have a "partial" president who couldn't veto laws or sign them, but have all the other powers a President has? Do you really think that?
If it turned out Obama was born outside the country, would that invalidate every law he signed?
If some mysterious boxes were found and validated showing Gore won, would Bush's laws be invalidated?
No and no. Except "certain" laws would be invalidated under this new NC SC premise.
" they can resort to the lamp post "
Are these repeated threats from your bigoted, gape-jawed conservative fans really what you want from your blog, Volokh Conspirators?
The only evidence-based answer is yes.
Maybe it's time to censor me again, for making fun of conservatives? Or for criticizing downscale Republicans?
#Hypocrites
#FauxLibertarians
#Losers
You are a disaffected, bigoted, autistic, antisocial, all-talk loser, Brett Bellmore.
And the target audience of this white, male, right-wing blog.
Thank for your continuing compliance with the preferences of your betters.
Rev. Artie referring to someone else as "all-talk" is just *chef's kiss*.
Wrong as always, clinger.
I have devoted countless hours for decades to defeating Republicans and conservatives -- including innumerable victories in court, often vindicating the rights of voters -- as an elected and appointed Democratic Party official and as a lawyer.
I worked on Thanksgiving and Christmas a couple of year ago helping to to impose adult supervision on Trump Election Litigation: Elite Strike Force (the fourth-stringers who currently confront disciplinary actions for their Keystone Kops conduct in court) and the un-American losers who hired those lawyers.
What have you done for America, other than stain it with your bigotry and backwardness while you await replacement?
OK. Let's note that you are clearly calling for political violence - lynching in fact - because you don't like the way the court ruled.
Apparently, based on your repetition of the call below, this is not hyperbole. Do you stand by your call? Do you consider that a legitimate response? Would you criticize someone on "the left" for similar comments, and raise hell about Steve Scalise again?
I may be faulted for a lack of imagination, but I never dreamed that a state supreme court would rule its own state legislature "illegitimate" and thereby disallow some (or all) of its actions.
This and other recent actions by Democratic partisans remind me of the scene in "Dr. Zhivago" where Zhivago's father-in-law plaintively asks "Why did they have to kill the Tsar?" and Zhivago answers "There's telling us there's no going back".
There is no longer any "norm" or expectation that the Dems won't violate to achieve their partisan ends, or, equally importantly, to block the other side, even if a majority, from achieving their ends. Like it or loath it, violence will be the end result and this decision brings it one step closer to that day.
Conservatives are not a majority in America. They are not a plurality. They are a fading minority in modern America, as better Americans continue to shape our national progress against conservatives' efforts and preferences.
Republicans still tend to lord over much of the uneducated, bigoted, parasitic backwaters, though, a circumstance that apparently confuses some of the depleted human residue that inhabits those can't-keep-up stretches of failed America, precipitating delusions of adequacy and relevance.
steeltown lad — I do not fault you for lack of imagination. I just note that you, and almost everyone commenting on this thread—both sides—show cluelessness about sovereignty, one of the most important concepts in American constitutionalism. There is no personal fault in that; it has gradually, over more than a century, become a default condition of American political discourse.
Central and indispensable though it is, the notion of sovereignty gets ignored by nearly everyone. That is unsurprising. During the lifetimes of people today, in practically all civics classes, and in most college history surveys, the implications of the notion of sovereignty—which in times past were regarded as the very keystone of American constitutionalism—have gone untaught.
Lawyers especially tend to misunderstand. Professional convenience encourages lawyers toward customary use of an intellectual shorthand which makes government seem sovereign. Others do that as well, and are doing it on this thread.
Strikingly, the North Carolina Supreme Court, for whatever reason, has taken note of sovereign power implications created by the history of political gerrymandering in that state. Surprisingly, given more-typical political and judicial conduct, the North Carolina Court seems to have recognized that under the original philosophical doctrines which structured American governments, it owes a duty to the collectively sovereign People of North Carolina, to guard jealously their sole power to constitute government. Arguably, illegitimately elected legislators lack power to exercise the People's constitutional delegation of sovereign power to create amendments. The Court has taken note, and decided accordingly.
However theoretically correct that is, nobody today is used to seeing legal decisions made with an eye to defense of the actual sovereign, instead of defense of mere government power. Hence the surprise and outrage.
Maybe also to its credit, or maybe alas, the Court has even taken note of a nuance in the situation which practically never gets discussed by anyone—that being the fact that some of what legislatures may do under constitutional guidance may involve exercise of sovereign powers, but other legislative actions do not implicate sovereignty. Appropriations to buy paper clips and pay bureaucrats are ministerial activity, not sovereign exercises; activity to create constitutional amendments is indisputably exercise of constitutive power—the power to create government.
That power defines sovereignty. Defending that power is the very first duty of everyone in government, including the courts—but in modern practice it is a duty honored more in the breach than otherwise.
Thus, the North Carolina Supreme Court has got much of the basic analysis right, while also creating a challenging muddle. The Court is right to construe broadly its duty to guard jealously the sovereign power of the People of North Carolina on every issue implicating the constitutive power. The Court is also (arguably) technically right to limit its own purview, by excluding purely ministerial activity by elected office holders from the sovereignty analysis.
Where elected office holders (including even presumptively illegitimately-elected office holders) are not traducing sovereign prerogatives, the Court's duty to defend the actual sovereign is not implicated. On the basis of that distinction, the decision continues to make sense, but also becomes doubly incomprehensible to bystanders unaccustomed to thinking about sovereignty at all.
If you could recast all the commentary on this thread in terms of the pros and cons of defense of the People's sovereignty, it would be less of a muddle. Many of the assertions made against the Court's power to decide as it has would collapse. Other criticisms more on point would come to the fore.
Your usual "the people are the sovereign" analysis would have noted that the people voted for the amendments on the ballot, and that was the end of the matter regardless of how the amendments ended up on the ballot, because the actual sovereign had spoken.
But that reasoning doesn't apply to amendments you don't like, I guess.
Bellmore, a racial gerrymander raises a question whether any ratification vote can be legitimate. I am assuming a racial gerrymander occurred for the sake of argument. If it did not, you are doubtless correct.
Somehow Brett, you've demeaned yourself even further.
I suggest that, the next time you are this angry about something, you walk away from the keyboard for a bit.
This is inappropriate - and at your age you have no excuse for not knowing better.
There is no need for heated rhetoric, the NC House has the power to suspend the errant justices tomorrow with a majority vote.
Just like the US Constitution the House needs a simple majority to impeach, and the Senate needs a 2/3 majority to convict, which is unlikely of course.
But, NC law also calls for a suspension of duties after impeachment until it's resolved at trial:
"12312. Accused suspended during trial.9, c. 168, s. 13; Cod Every officer impeached shall be suspended from the exercise of his office until his acquittal. (1868 e, s. 2934; Rev., s. 4634; C.S."
That would get their attention.
Less unlikely than you think; The constitutional amendments needed just as many votes to pass the state Senate, so the court has just pissed off exactly as many state Senators as are needed to convict.
As I stated above, it's somewhat obvious that the same majority on the state supreme court would declare the impeachment proceedings illegal based on the same analysis. Would this then be checkmate?
No. There is no doubt in our system of government that the legislature, when backed by enough votes will when any power confrontation with either the executive or judicial branches.
And of course the people will have a chance to weigh in with 2 Democratic SC seats up in a statewide election.
And the NC Senate needs 5 more GOP votes for 2/3 majority, that would also be game, set, match.
I don't see it that way, and I'm not happy about it. Our "system" as it has been since Marbury v. Madison has granted final deference to the Courts, and there are innumerable examples in our everyday civics lessons of Courts being anti-majoritarian and striking down acts of the legislature, whether enacted via a super-majority or not, or of the voters acting directly via referenda. Going forward It will be a trivial matter for the NC Supremes to nullify any actions of the legislature they have deemed entirely illegitimate.
Probably needs the governor on board, the proper thing with a conviction in the Senate is if the Supreme Court Justice refuses to voluntarily leave office then the marshals or state police show them out and arrest them for trespassing if necessary.
Any other justices that try to claim the impeached and convicted judge is still in office could also be impeached and convicted, same as a governor that refused to implement the decision.
And at some point maybe the Republican form of government clause would come into play, because "republican form of government" means the legislature is ultimately in charge.
Republican form of government means the People are sovereign, and in charge. It stipulates they manage day-to-day governance by electing and/or removing the occupants of political branches.
What? Is the NC SC just making up these new limitations out of whole cloth?
Making up how to deal with stuff how courts deal with a case of first impression.
Is there a precedent you can point to?
Is there ANY basis in existing law, anywhere, for the NC SC to make up these specific limitations in regards to the legislators power?
Listen...if the NC SC said "These legislators are illegitimate, none of their votes count for anything"...that might stand up.
But specifically limiting "certain" of the legislators powers, but allowing others? It makes no sense. There's no "partial" legislator anywhere. They either have all of the powers endowed to the legislature or none of them. The justification that they only have "partial" powers? Doesn't exist anywhere.
Unless you can magically point to part of the NC law that allows it.
They either have all of the powers endowed to the legislature or none of them.
You say that, but you have not backed it up. Why can't courts tailor a remedy in this case? I could be missing something, but so far all you have is ipse dixit.
Also, all or none legislative power would be news to the Supremacy Clause which is all about feds deciding the extend to state legislators' power.
What I have is the Constitution of North Carolina and the US Constitution.
Presumably the same was available to the Judges. They came to a different conclusion than you.
Got a citation or just gonna waive them around!
Again, what was the power to do the exclusionary rule? You can’t find it because remedy tailoring is inherent.
Here you go.
https://www.ncleg.gov/Laws/Constitution
Nitwit. The exclusionary rule governs the judiciary themselves; It only kicks in when somebody tries to use evidence in a trial before a judge, after all. So it's the judiciary saying what the judiciary is going to do.
The exclusionary rule governs the judiciary themselves.
Not really. It governs what prosecutors, executive branch officers, can submit to court. It is a remedy that avoids throwing out the entire case, but is crafted to vindicate the right violated.
The North Carolina Supreme Court sought to craft a similarly tailored remedy here, given it is a case of first impression. Not unlike the exclusionary rule, there were three options: Ignore the violation and proceed as if it never happened. Invalidate everything (throw the case out; the legislators are wholly invalid and cannot act at all). Or find a middle ground as narrowly tailored as possible to vindicate the right violated, but with as little disruption to the system as possible.
Now, you might not like it. You may think it, or the exclusionary rule, is wrong because there isn't textual authority for that particularly remedy. Or you just may think they chose the wrong middle ground. But Sarcastro is absolutely right that the court has the authority to determine the remedy and, historically, hasn't been limited to an all or nothing approach.
You're not disagreeing with me: The exclusionary rule only works in the places the judiciary directly controls, it is the judiciary declaring what the judiciary itself will do, not what anybody else can do.
"Not unlike the exclusionary rule, there were three options: Ignore the violation and proceed as if it never happened."
There is no violation to ignore. The legislators were elected from a map the judiciary itself directed be used in that election.
This is also the judiciary declaring what the judiciary itself will do.
Here's what the state constitution says:
"Sec. 20. Powers of the General Assembly.
Each house shall be judge of the qualifications and elections of its own members,"
You see any, "Unless the judiciary disagree" in there? There is no provision for the judiciary to play a role here.
I'll note that it takes no more votes to impeach members of the state judiciary than it did to pass those constitutional amendments. Something they should have thought about before they did this.
Judicial review is not something you can just write out of the constitution.
Judicial review does not allow the judiciary to make new laws.
Judicial review does not allow judges the power to overrule the legislature and the people when new amendments are made and ratified by the legislature and the people.
That concept destroys the very core of democracy.
In North Carolina, the people elected the judges too.
Moreover, you are relying on the argument that the constitutional amendment was validly made and ratified. Which is precisely the question in dispute.
Sure, if you start with your conclusion, your argument is impeccable. But the whole point is that not everybody, particularly including the North Carolina Supreme Court, agrees that the constitutional amendment was validly made and ratified.
And if the legislature votes to impeach the judges...but the judges suddenly say "Well, you don't have that power either, because we've decided you were illegitimately elected.
What then?
What other powers of the legislature or executive can the judiciary suddenly decide don't apply, because of how they view the election?
Impeachment isn't something that happens in the courts, so they would have no opportunity to rule on that issue.
But the crux of the matter, do you deny that they can declare an election unconstitutional due to overt racial discrimination? Are you suggesting they have no remedy if they make that determination?
If you concede they could have not seated them at all, then how do you escape the principle that the greater power to completely ban something necessarily includes the lesser power to enact a partial ban? Posadas de Puerto Rico Associates v. Tourism Co., 478 U.S. 328, 345-56 (1986).
Very few things in life are all or nothing propositions. The idea that legislators elected pursuant to a racially discriminatory map can engage in ordinary legislation, but not make constitutional amendments seems, on its face, a reasonable compromise to practical necessity. I haven't formed a strong opinion yet on whether it is the best course. But those rejecting it out of hat seem, to me, to be ignoring the very real conundrum that the NC Republican legislature created when it decided to engage in racial discrimination in the electoral process.
And I should say, constitutional amendments that affect the electoral process with the potential to perpetuate the discrimination that resulted in the need to declare district maps unconstitutional in the first place.
Judicial review of laws under the theory that, is it possible for a law and the constitution to be logically in conflict? Yes, of course*. Therefore the court must follow the correct law, in which case the constitution wins.
This is something different.
* This is the whole point of constitutions, to gird the types of laws legislators may pass.
Shouldn’t someone write judicial review into the constitution in the first place?
Yeah you can:
"Each house shall be judge of the qualifications and elections of its own members".
I highly doubt that if this was a case of a GOP Supreme Court deciding that liberals in power had illegally found ways to entrench their political party's power for the future, that you would have a word of complaint to offer.
Well Jason I clearly said I didn't support Trump and his tenacious 12th amendment interpretation. That never got to a court, but if did a court ruled in his favor I would say the same thing, it can't stand and the justices who ruled for it should be impeached.
This case is even worse, at a state level, because it directly contradicts the state constitution, not take advantage of some poor wording to assert their is an elephant in a constitutional mouse hole like Trump's 12th amendment argument.
But let's be clear about what you are saying, and I suppose Sarcastro too, if the court ruled in Trump's favor on Eastman's 12th amendment theory it would have been legitimate, right?
As Sarcastro would say: there is no precedent or other authority to cite saying it isn't legit.
Kazinski, legitimacy comes in flavors: sovereign legitimacy; government legitimacy; legislative legitimacy; executive legitimacy; court legitimacy; procedural legitimacy, legal legitimacy—none of those is analyzed like any of the others. Arguments founded on the legitimate/illegitimate distinction must thus apply narrowly to whatever scope is intended, or risk boggling complications by entangling different scopes.
A huge complicating factor in this case is the U.S. Supreme Court decision to punt the racial gerrymander problem back to the states. Had that been acknowledged as a problem for federal solution, subject to the supremacy clause, North Carolina would not now be on the brink of a multi-scope legitimacy crisis.
That can probably only get legitimate resolution at the level of a sovereign decree—which many in government seem committed to attempt to thwart. Your own advocacy above is distinctly in line with the state legislature as the ultimate authority in North Carolina. That is utterly contrary to the North Carolina constitution, which makes the people of North Carolina the ultimate authority.
The right solution to this crisis—which will probably never happen—would be for the legislature to recognize a constitutional crisis is ongoing, and step back, to invite instead some sovereign process with power to decree a solution.
If that fails to happen, there could be a renewed opportunity for the U.S. Supreme Court to un-punt its terrible decision to abrogate responsibility to solve gerrymandering problems. Few indeed will be holding their breaths for that one.
Most likely now, seems to be an unsettled and continuously unsettling quasi-resolution, in which legislative supremacy de facto does replace popular sovereignty in North Carolina. Your advocacy may indeed carry the day, at least for a time, and deliver the botch it inevitably implies.
Because the remedy would be a redrawn district and a new election, not disenfrahchisement of voters because jackasses played games and other jackasses are playing games in response.
Who the hell do these clowns think their power derives from?
And then the jackasses who played the games in 2010 did so again in 2020. But most of the usual suspects here apparently think those jackasses should be able to do whatever they want, despite their game playing. That's not really an acceptable solution.
Or maybe they think that if the Court determined that the 2010 districts were racial gerrymandered and therefore invalid, the Court should have refused to let them be used at all rather than making up this new "limited lawmaker" position that has never been mentioned before.
Have you heard anyone making that argument?
I have heard people say the NC could only declare that the racial gerrymandering rendered al legislative acts invalid, but not some of them. What I have not read or heard is that the NC Supreme Court should have done that.
Everyone I have heard/read who hates this decision also thinks the legislators should have been accepted as validly elected with no limitations on their power to propose constitutional amendments that entrench the very harms the legislature was found to have committed in the first place.
Are you the unicorn who hates this decision, but thinks the racial gerrymandering should have rendered the entire election invalid?
I am afraid that your explanation seems awfully self-serving.
But okay, you say that legislators can be half-pregnant.
Where in the NC Constitution does it says that its Court can write its own constitution creating new forms of elected officials?
The part that says you can't racial gerrymander strongly implies there is a remedy to redress the harms when the legislature engages in racial gerrymandering. But you know that, you're just one of those people who demand ever more specificity in constitutional provisions when it is a human right you don't like. Luckily, originalism of any sort rejects that unoriginal view of the U.S. or state constitutions.
You show that you are just another commenter who likes to mind-rape.
But go ahead, mr attorney, give me the line in the NC constitution that I asked you for.
You cannot because it is not there.
Instead you spin some overarching legal principle out of your head.
The courts approved the last election using the "tainted" districts. One the election is held and certified the NC Supreme Court can't say: "When we allowed the election we didn't tell you that we put you on double secret probation, now you violated the double secret probation so the hammer is coming down."
That's at least a better argument.
And, again, I haven't staked out my position, just pointing out weaknesses in the arguments of those who are especially upset at the decision.
If the districting was invalid, the court should not have allowed it at all.
If the court told the state to use those districts, then it made them valid, for at least that election, and as any other district it approves. Remember, the districting took place before the election, so unlike what you suggest, refusing to validate a districting plan the court felt was unconstitutional would not have "rendered the entire election invalid".
Yet here, the court as invented a sub-category of legislator, defined no where before this moment, whose powers are contextually limited - but only post facto, when the court decides so.
And finally, there is no limit to anyone's ability to suggest stupid, selfserving, or harm-entrenching constitutional amendments, no matter what district or race the proposal comes from. The idea that there should be content-dependent and racial-district limits on such proposals is... a "novel legal theory", as I believe the phrase goes.
"ou say that, but you have not backed it up. Why can't courts tailor a remedy in this case?"
Because their decisions have to be backed up by a law, not their preferences mainly.
There is no such thing as a "partial" legislator. It is binary. Either you are one or you are not.
I'd say precedent or no, any decision that is clearly contrary to a black letter provision in the NC constitution is invalid:
"Each house shall be judge of the qualifications and elections of its own members"
There is no way for the NC SC to say after an election they allowed that some of the legislators are partially disqualified.
The ruling is judicial supremacy run amok.
But I will point out again that they didn't actually make a final ruling, I think the purpose is to stay the ID law until after the election.
But I think the House should act now and impeach at least the justice that wrote the decision, and probably all 4 in the majority.
Yes.
Democrats gonna Democrat
Judicial supremacy at work.
Death threats and yelling that the left has gone too far is fun and all, but this is a remedies question.
If a legislature is found to be undemocratically elected (as was the case here), what is the remedy other than something akin to this? Forbidding them from being seated?
You can't challenge the results of an election after it's certified. That's sedition.
Sedition?! That's bad news for a lot of Trump supporters!
Ain't it ironic that the poster who chose the name Sarcastr0 can't even recognize the real thing when it's dripping off the bottom of the screen?
Since no one official has said that about 2020 truthers, it's not really on point.
You and I both know plenty of people have said that. What cover are you trying to create with "official" and why do you think that matters?
How many people said that is not relevant to the current discussion. So I'm not going to take your irrelevancy bait. Go fish somewhere else.
LOL -- weak. This was the very subject of the thread you decided to snark into. Puff yourself up like a little yappy dog while you retreat with your tail between your legs.
"Since no one official has said that about 2020 truthers, it's not really on point."
Courts routinely keep people in jail for 18 months before trial for trespassing?
The treatment of them is the proof.
Note that Sarcastr0 doesn’t argue the point.
Because it's below engaging with that this judicial opinion is seditious, you wannabe denizen of a dictatorship.
NC Supreme Court is already acting as a politburo. Citizens of NC might want to overthrow their dictators and go back to being a democracy.
The Supreme Court in NC is elected. Your point would at least have a veneer of plausibility if these were appointed, life tenured positions. They aren't. All the usual arguments about unelected judges doesn't work here. At all.
That might be a good reply to such an argument, if someone had made that argument. No one did.
Elections don’t confer ultimate power under the NC constitution.
You claim NC is not a democracy, that the justices are "dictators." So, yeah, you made that claim. I'm glad you acknowledge that it is a good argument with respect to those, like you, making the claim that NC is now a dictatorship and not a democracy.
Elections don’t confer ultimate power under the NC constitution.
No, but the people who made the determination of what is allowed/required under the NC constitution are tasked with that responsibility under the constitution. And they are elected. Whatever else this is, even if an egregiously wrong-headed decision, it isn't a dictatorship and NC is a democracy still.
Also, note that Sarcastr0 still doesn’t argue the point
Hmm. President giving a speech? Sedition! Judges overturning the will of the people because they don't like the result? No big deal!
Yup, it is for them and for the NC Court.
There IS no "remedy"; The decision to hold the election under the existing map means that the result of the election IS legitimate. The voters have spoken, period. There isn't the slightest hint of a power for the state courts to make the winner of an election only partly elected. That's the grossest imaginable separation of powers violation.
The majority on the court need to be impeached immediately, assuming they haven't presumed to take that power from the legislature, too.
The voters haven't spoken, is what the decision said. You're looking at the initial decision's remedy for substance, because you don't like the initial decisions' actual substance. Your fury is covering some elementary fails in your reasoning.
There isn't the slightest hint of a power for the state courts to make the winner of an election only partly elected
A court's remedial power is pretty wide. You just think this; you have not established it.
There may be arguments as to why there is no remedy, but as usual you are certain about stuff you have no idea about. Anger has given you certainty; it has not given you clarity.
The court may well be wrong - this is pretty interesting and cool new ground - but you stamping your foot and declaring what is legit and how the voter have spoken in an illegal gerrymander is not going to get there.
The voters DID speak. There was an election.
The decision to hold an election under the existing map was the end of it.
The election was found to be tainted by an illegal racial gerrymander. The court thinks that maybe such a court shouldn't be able to mess with the franchise of the group that was disenfranchised by the gerrymander.
I concur.
I'm not sure this is the right remedy, but I think it's ridiculous to say 'You disenfranchised the blacks. Don't do it again! In the meantime, feel free to disenfranchise them in other ways.'
Voter ID only disenfranchises people who do not have any form of identification.
Jim Crow only disenfachised people who couldn't answer some simple questions correctly.
RIght, you think blacks are some sort of retarded subhuman farm animals who don't drive or shop or have credit cards or bank accounts or send their kids to schools or get prescriptions or any of the millions of other things that modern society requires ID for.
But I'm the racist.
You are a racist.
Yet you do not use a vile racial slur nearly as often as Eugene Volokh does.
Oh noes!
I think efforts aimed at disenfranchising black people will disenfranchise black people because white people are really good at finding ways to disenfranchise black people.
What a nice tautology.
Ref: Jim Crow.
How many black people do you personally know that have no ID and are too stupid to get a free state ID to vote?
If you don't know any, what percentage of the blacks do you think are too stupid to get a free state ID to vote?
You can call black people stupid all you want for being disroportionatey affected by racially motivated voter supression, but if your policies are stopping people from voting, then the problem's with the policies, not the people, and of course with the people for whom stopping black people voting is the point of the policies.
"Jim Crow only disenfachised people who couldn't answer some simple questions correctly."
Why do many progs think darker-skinned folks are too incompetent to do the basics of life, like secure an ID?
Why do so many white people love creating obstacles to stop black people voting?
You have the opinion that, as a rule, blacks do not have photo ID. Do you have any evidence to bolster this claim? I've never met one who did not have one, but perhaps I know the competent ones only.
I don't have that opinion. I have the opinion that if a measure like this disproportionately affects one part of the population, then that measure is either bad and must be discontinued or is deliberatey designed to do so, and must be discontinued. Rest assured I would have the same opinon if the affected part of the population were white Republicans.
damikesc — To secure the ID is not the issue. Voter suppression schemes do not turn on that process.
What they do turn on is a requirement to have an ID, and present it in some location where there is a police presence, in order to effectuate voting. Right wing election strategists well understand that many black men have disorderly legal records, with offenses ranging from unpaid traffic tickets to felony charges pending against them.
The voter suppression tactic is simply to create a voting process which requires such men to go to locations actively guarded by police, and present ID which police could use to check their records. Nobody expects black men with legal troubles—who are many—will be willing to take that risk in order to vote. That is how that kind of voter suppression works.
But that's not "racial" vote suppression, even if you want to call it "vote suppression". It's "criminal" vote suppression. Because a white with an arrest warrant out on him would be just as concerned.
Now go attack it for what it really is, and see how many people are offended by the notion of making criminals nervous about voting.
Sarcastr0...What is the right remedy, and why? You tell me.
C_XY,
He doesn't know or does not dare say. But he liked this result so he will defend it despite it being absurd on its face.
Come on, man. I'm arguing in good faith, don't just say I must be in bad faith because you don't like what I'm saying!
S_0,
It is hardly good faith to sidestep the question and bridge to your pitch, just like everyone is trained to do in "Dealing with the Media."
'I'm not sure this is the right remedy' neither means 'this is not the right remedy' nor 'I know exactly what the right remedy is.'
I don't see anything better, but I'm open to suggestions. So far not seeing any other than mass impeachments from people who seem unclear on how remedies works.
Look, once you've made sure that black people's votes don't count as much as white people's, THEN the acceptable voters have spoken!
Since they have remanded the case, impeachment is urgent. It's the only way to preserve the NC constitution.
You are glossing over a bedrock constitutional principle.
Each house shall be the judge of it's own members election and qualifications.
That doesn't leave any room for the NC SC to say different.
But let's not over react it's telling that the SC did not make a ruling, the remanded to a lower court for a rehearing and fact finding.
It's almost like they lost their nerve at the crucial time.
Maybe getting impeached and suspended will clarify things for them.
They wanted the effect, the Voter ID amendment suspended, while dragging things out to push the reversal past the election.
Because Dems plan to fraud all over the NC election.
Have you considered there may be principles at work? No. Because you are never able to understand the concept of liberals with principles.
A question of an unprecedented remedy that has gone too far, a Rubicon that SFAIK has never before been crossed at the federal or any state level.
States throughout the South disenfranchised black citizens of a massive basis through legal and extra-legal means from the end of Reconstruction till the 1960's. This is indisputable, and on a scale dwarfing the current argument that, say, "statistical analysis proves to the satisfaction of a majority of the NC Court that NC District 5 should have been moved 11 miles west", or something. The massive historical disenfranchisement gave Southern (and probably some non-Southern) states a Congressional representation that it would not have had absent this disenfranchisement. If the liberal Warren court in the 1950's had therefore peremptorily declared the United States Congress to be illegitimate, or illegitimate as to some (undefinable) set of actions and failures to act, can you imagine what the reaction would have been?
From the headline, I was certain this would be another one of the blogger's, posting something typically overwrought.
I was wrong, and the wroughtness is fully justified. It's amazing to see a "partisan" split of a Supreme Court reject constitutional amendment this way.
Beyond amazing. They just threw out representative government in favor of politburo-style governance.
There’s nothing Dems won’t do.
The original holding of racial gerrymander was premised on a confessional-system like doctrine which instantiates a kind of affirmative action in voting.
This ruling brings the NC Supreme still further into the third world, by bending judicial doctrine to declare state constitutional amendments racist (the notion that voter ID laws are racist is premised on the idea that citizens in a first world country cannot be expected to live up to the minimal standards of competency required to obtain the ID)
Obsolete, downscale right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Why do you think blacks are top dumb to acquire ID, Rev?
Every law school whose name is stained by association with this white, male, racial slur-heavy, right-wing blog should consider that point carefully when considering whether to hire any more movement conservatives for faculty positions.
The voter ID laws are held to be racist because they disproportionately dienfranchise black people, by design.
...except Gerogia's ID law increased participation amongst all groups.
Sorry that darker-skinned folks aren't the incompetent boobs who desperately need your charity that you feel they are.
Do you even KNOW a minority? Ask them about how they managed to get an ID when it is nigh impossible, if your eyes, for them to do so.
I'm sure if the ID laws failed to be an effective obstacle to black people voting, they'll find something else - there's no shortage of Republican voter supression tactics.
"I'm sure if the ID laws failed to be an effective obstacle to black people voting, they'll find something else - there's no shortage of Republican voter supression tactics."
Yet the GOP is happy about it and have made no such moves, but hey, you're a racist so I have doubts what your opinion is really worth.
Haven't they? No voting stations closed in black areas lately? Or will they wait until closer to an election? Maybe some laws about giving people waiting hours in line to vote some food or water being a criminal offence? Oh, and lety's not forget the gerrymandering.
Nige,
Can you only spout slogans?
Can you guys stop acting as if it's okay to suppress people's votes?
Mere whataboutism.
Another of your bankrupt debating concepts
Not sure that word means what you think it means.
You surely don't.
But how about those Red Sox?
From the decision:
"The issue is whether legislators elected from unconstitutionally racially gerrymandered districts possess unreviewable authority to initiate the process of changing the North Carolina Constitution,"
"enacted legislation presenting six constitutional amendments to North Carolina voters."
"Both amendments were ultimately ratified by a majority of North Carolina voters."
Unreviewable? What exactly did the state's voters do when they decided whether or not to ratify the amendments, if not review them? Let's be clear, the court didn't just usurp the legislature's authority, it usurped the voters' authority, too.
Nearest lamp post. I stand by that.
Review means judicial review, chief.
You're saying the people get to override the judiciary role now.
Lamp post means lamp post.
Log off then - this is a place for talking, and you want to get a lynchin' tough guy.
Engage with the case and put forth an argument justifying yourself, and quit with your melodramatic bullshit.
Piss off you ignorant wanker. NO ONE put you in charge and given your idiotic, repetitive posts no on ever will.
Concern trolling and tone policing, it's all he's got. Oh and bald faced lies.
I think, as I said, that the lamp posts can wait until the legislature impeaches them, and they refuse to go.
But you don't seem to grasp the enormity of what they did. The people of the state amended the state constitution following all the rules, and the state supreme court just made up a rule to stop them.
As of this moment, NC isn't a democracy anymore. It's a judicial oligarchy. The state supreme court has given itself permission to countermand anything the legislature does that it disagrees with.
"The people of the state amended the state constitution following all the rules"
You like like a cheap rug.
The judicial decision that the election would go forward under the existing map WAS a decision that the election adequately complied with the rules.
Again, the state constitution itself says the chambers are the judge of the qualifications of their members. Not the judiciary, which has no role in that. They seated them, they're members.
Threatening lynchings and a supporter of racist disenfranchisement. We've seen that before.
Sounds like Robert Byrd.
Old school Klan racism? You said it.
Maybe take a break from typing for a while, Mr. Bellmore, and spend some time with your mail order bride.
If judges get the lamp post, nonces get the wall. I don’t think vigilante violence is a route you want to go down . . .
The opinion is premised on the idea that the composition of the allegedly racially gerrymandered assembly was a potential but for cause in the enactment of the challenged amendments, such that the amendments bear a taint.
But the amendments were presented to the North Carolina's voters — apparently at large, without regard to district—who ratified the proposals.
I don't buy that the people voting for something is a sufficient intervening cause to obviate it being improperly put before the people in the first place.
Apparently they could put forth any amendment except for this one particular kind that fortifies elections.
Weird.
Fortifies elections? Well, that's some extremely strong question-begging.
I unmuted you for this? Ugh.
Yes, Voter ID fortifies elections.
Mailing out ballots to every person and having zero security or verification is the opposite of fortifying elections which is probably why you people call it "fortifying elections".
"I don't buy that the people voting for something is a sufficient intervening cause to obviate it being improperly put before the people in the first place."
"The people should not have a say on this" seems like a borderline moronic decision by any judge.
"If we had our way, the voters would not have been allowed to even speak on this" is not much of a defense of democracy at all.
damikesc — There is a historically long-standing flaw in the notion of popular sovereignty, to do with the power of the popular sovereign to disfranchise some subset of its own members. Racial politics in the South exploited that flaw to the limit for almost a century. Then a larger popular sovereignty—of the nation as a whole—stepped in to reform abuses which had tyrannized some of the members of state sovereignties throughout the South.
Catastrophically, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected that oversight role for the national sovereign, when it punted back to the states responsibility to oversee political and racial gerrymandering. That was a blunder. This case in North Carolina examples the consequences to expect.
You can vote to disenfranchise other voters? Who knew?
More "Darker-skinned folks are too inept to handle the basics of life" from the ever-so-tolerant left.
The basics of life being that Republicans will do everything in their power to stop them from voting and to reduce the effectiveness of those that do vote? They've been handling that for a long time.
Again, can you back up this claim that darker skinned folks just, as a rule, do not possess photo ID? Feel free to lift up your hood if you need to see better.
I don't have to, because it's not a claim I made. The only claim at issue is that these are designed to disproportionately effect black people, and they do. You could always look up why and how, but I expect you don't actually care.
allegedly racially gerrymandered assembly
Not allegedly. That's been determined conclusively.
Racial gerrymanders are basically required by law in order to give African Americans majority minority districts.
There's a fun exercise that can be done to demonstrate this.
Fivethirtyeight has a nice algorithm that can redesign congressional district lines. Using the current district lines, there are 2 majority-minority districts. But if you just use an algorithm for the most compact districts...those minority majority districts disappear. Now every district is majority white. If the state actually tried this redistricting however, they'd get hit with a civil rights suit.
(If you follow county lines, you drop from 2 to 1 majority-minority district).
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/north-carolina/#algorithmic-compact
Racial gerrymanders are basically required by law in order to give African Americans majority minority districts.
You're being dishonest. First, that proposition is very much in dispute, as you well know. Second, only a racist would say that racial gerrymandering to suppress black voting power is the moral and legal equivalent of "gerrymandering" to ensure meaningful representation of groups historically excluded from the democratic process.
Your argument reveals you.
Are you saying that racial discrimination in districting is good when you support the outcome? That sounds pretty racist there.
Tell me, what's the difference between a required majority-minority district and a racially packed one?
If you think whether or not a district shaped by race to suppress the voting the voting power of one racial group is good or bad depends on what race benefits, then you might be a racist.
Are you saying that to correct racial gerrymandering will itself be racist because the resulting redistricting will be along racial lines, therefore the only non-racist approach is to leave the racist gerrymandering the way it is or perpetuate it? Now that's an ugly little tautology of the powerful.
If you think whether or not a district shaped by race to suppress the voting the voting power of one racial group is good or bad depends on what race benefits, then you might be a racist.
No one has made that claim which you believe is racist. At least not in this thread.
But if you ignore the history of inequality, including both economic and political, in this country, including ongoing efforts in North Carolina, to disadvantage one racial group, then you're almost certainly a racist when you argue that taking account of race is the same no matter what the purpose is.
Which is not to say you can't argue that, despite historical inequities that have effects through the present AND the fact that legislatures like North Carolina's continue to implement maps and policies to entrench the historic inequities, the best policy is to be race neutral or that the Constitution requires it. It's not a gimme, by any stretch, but there are non-racist arguments for that proposition.
Pretending policies designed to enhance white voting power are the moral equivalent as policies designed to try to undue the effects of historical discrimination in an effort at parity in voting power is a different animal altogether. It is racist. It is racist because it requires either denying the fact of historical discrimination and the continuing effects of that discrimination or denying that such discrimination and its effects are a moral evil worthy of redress.
(For example, giving money to an all-white private school that does not admit black students because the students are predominantly white is not the moral equivalent of giving money to a school that, because of past historical housing and education practices, has an all black student body even if the primary motive in leaving money to that school is that the students are predominantly black.)
Your argument is that perpetuating discrimination is the moral equivalent of trying to cure the effects of past discrimination. It's a racist argument.
You seem to be supporting the existence of forced minority majority districts, which is explicitly racist - you just support that particular instance of racism because you feel that it is necessary to counteract those historical injustices you mention.
That's still racist. You just like it. Switching the conversation to "moral equivalent" doesn't change the fact, you're just trying to evade the object point by switching to subjective ones.
The policies you support are objectively diluting the voting power of certain races in order to benefit a specific race - and the vast majority of the people being harmed by this policy had nothing to do with the "historical wrongs" you are punishing them for. Scapegoats are a fine religious policy, but are really shitty when used as a basis for voting allocation.
Not to mention: "cure the effects of past discrimination"? What, are you going to redo those past elections? No? Then why do you think perpetuating racial discrimination onto different people will somehow remedy the harm suffered by previous generations, mostly long dead?
You are making a racist argument. You just don't want to admit it.
'That's still racist.'
It really isn't. BUT it is the Republican version of racism, the white supremacist version.
The argument that everything other than immediate race-blindness is just racism is ridiculous.
Where we are and how we got here can't just be ignored in policymaking. And that's not racism or discrimination by any definition anyone uses.
This isn't a hard concept. Those blithely trying to pretend ignoring race is the only truly equal policy are either pretty dumb, blinded by being fed white resentment for too long, or trying to sell us (and maybe themselves) something white supremacist.
"Nearest lamp post."
Antisocial bigot.
Disaffected wingnut.
Autistic loser.
All-talk asshole.
Birther.
Brett.
Kirkland, who daily posts about how glorious the coming day will be when he’s allowed to jam something town his opponents throats is suddenly against political violence. And has the gall to call someone else a hypocrite.
It's not a "coming day," you bigoted right-wing rube. It is every day in modern America.
Better Americans have been shoving progress down the throats of bigoted conservatives and Republicans for more than a half-century.
You guys get to whine about it as much as you like -- especially at this white, male, bigot-friendly conservative blog -- but you will comply with the preferences of better Americans.
Make that continue to comply.
Fuck off, Kirkland. It’s obvious from what you just called me that you’ve never read anything I posted. You just want to argue your idiotic hateful tripe with no regard for what the other person actually said.
You are not someone to be taken seriously.
Your comments indicate you are a clinger, bevis the lumberjack. Do you deny it?
My first impression is negative toward this idea that the majority came up with. But I will say that the dissent’s argument that it violates the guarantee of a “republican” form of government interesting. I would think that partisan gerrymandering would also violate that guarantee. Nothing violates the principle that the people choose their representatives in a republic like gerrymandering away the peoples’ chance to do that.
I wouldn't mind that clause being given a bit more teeth myself.
You do know when the term "gerrymandering" was coined, right? If gerrymandering alone is sufficient to say a state doesn't have a republican form of government, then every state in the union has been acting unconstitutionally pretty much since the Founding.
Since that is a ridiculous result, it suggests that the premise is probably untrue. Gerrymandering is bad but that doesn't make it unconstitutional.
But that can be taken ad absurdum, right? There is a threshold - there has to be - where it has gone too far and cracked and packed too many people to be anything other than a mockery of being in a republic.
There is a threshold - there has to be
Of course there does, and we are way past that threshold already, IMO. Rucho is one of the worst SCOTUS decisions in recent years.
"If the democratic process has been completely subverted, the democratic process should fix it."
It's as bad as Shelby County: "No one has driven off the road lately, so we can take down those guardrails."
I concur (though IMO Shelby is worse, just because it's reasoning is so clearly out of pocket), but i'm in is-land, not ought-land.
Absurd doesn't make it unconstitutional either. Nor, by the way, have you (or anyone else) offered evidence that the level of gerrymandering is worse than the cases at the time the word was coined.
Again, it's bad and we should come up with a better way of setting voting districts but that doesn't automatically make this court's approach the right fix. "We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do this" is no way to run a government.
Nor, by the way, have you (or anyone else) offered evidence that the level of gerrymandering is worse than the cases at the time the word was coined.
I'm not sure why this is relevant. If there was extreme gerrymandering in 1812 does that make it OK in 2022?
If it was common in 1812 (and has been pretty much ever since), it makes the novel argument that 'gerrymandering = violation of republican form of government' rather suspect.
The promise of a republican form of government has been around since the Founding. So has gerrymandering. If the very people who wrote the Constitution didn't think that gerrymandering violated that clause, it certainly invites skepticism of the claim now.
So are certain Illinois districts illegitimate because they're obvious racial gerrymanders? Or does it not count when the minority wants the racial gerrymander to increase its political power?
It's not so much a matter of declaring them illegitimate because they're racial gerrymanders, as it is because not enough racial gerrymandering took place for the court's satisfaction; The map went out of its way to create majority black districts, but not as many as were possible to create.
S_0,
Elections mean that "you get what you get and you don't get upset" until it's time to vote again.
You really are as bad as Trump claiming that he can change the rules after the fact if you do not like the results.
This is what I was thinking. Is not the drawing of districts and such specifically left to the legislatures as a political process? This was acknowledged as a flawed process, but the least flawed option out there as at least there could be accountability from the voters.
I'm not sure that such a thing as an "unconstitutional gerrymander" exists. If anything, statutes that restrict the legislature from drawing them as the voters empower them to are unconstitutional.
Is not the drawing of districts and such specifically left to the legislatures as a political process? This was acknowledged as a flawed process, but the least flawed option out there as at least there could be accountability from the voters.
But the whole point is to remove accountability - to entrench the current majority in power.
Voters, by and large, aren't going to vote based on some abstract ideal. They want their side to win. No one is going to say, "I really like Republican policies, but I'm going to vote for the Democrat because the way the GOP drew the districts is unfair."
I live in NC. We are a swing State, but we are basically "conservative" in the old, good, non-partisan sense. But not our Supreme Court. The Justices are elected by the People who (of course) don't know much about them. But we usually vote for the first name on the non-partisan ballot, which is why there's a Democrat majority on the Supreme Court. But we approved the redistricting, and WE ARE THE PEOPLE!
Dems don’t care what you did. You’re Americans, so you are automatically a suspect class. In Democrat reckoning. So they get to overrule you whenever it suits them and whenever they can get away with it.
And they’ll tell you that you have a moral duty to thank them for it.
You don't speak for the population of NC.
They spoke for themselves by approving voter iD by popular vote.
Das Raycist!
North Carolina has improved a bit -- with a few legitimate educational institutions to offset some of the backwater religious schools, and a slightly more educated population that its fellow southern states -- but it is in many ways still the state of Jesse Helms and the losers, bigots, and traitors of the Confederacy.
Rev, we're getting a lot of yankees moving here to get away from the crime, high taxes, and misgovernment in the States you like (I used to live in DC, so I know). A lot of reasonable folks like it here just fine. But stay where you're happy. Please.
The number of reasoning, sensible residents in North Carolina is climbing, making it slightly better than the likes of Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi, but there are still enough vestigial racists and half-educated gay-bashers to make North Carolina a recognizable part of the deplorable American south.
I do not sense that you would much mind those parts of North Carolina, Mr. VonSalzen. That makes North Carolina a suitable spot for you as you await replacement by your betters.
Where is Stephen L to remind us that the Sovereign has spoken?
Right here, Nico. The North Carolina legislature is not the sovereign. Nor is any subset of the North Carolina people voting in gerrymandered districts a legitimate sovereign. Popular sovereigns cannot remain legitimate after they disfranchise systematically subsets of their membership.
The right countervailing power is unavailable to correct what happened in North Carolina. The U.S. Supreme Court punted its accountability for gerrymandering. Now North Carolina gets in consequence a constitutional crisis and an irresolvable muddle, which promises to overturn tacitly the North Carolina constitution. The likely result will be to install instead of the people, the North Carolina legislature as putative sovereign.
Perhaps we should view this as an early step along the road toward complete destruction of American constitutionalism, as advocated by Trump's right-wing acolytes.
You do realize that, when the people vote in NC on an amendment, they don't do so by district, it's a state wide vote? So no gerrymandering at all was involved in producing the solid majority votes in favor of those two amendments.
By your own reasoning, if it was honest, you'd have to say those amendments were legitimate, as the ultimate sovereign has spoken, and fairly loudly, too.
SL,
Nope, the people are and they voted. But You get a gentleman;s C for effort in avoiding the issue.
Son if the legislature decodes to impeach and remove, will the justices just declare it a nullity and continue on.
The governor will refuse to let the decision be implemented, and he and the NC Supreme Court will rule by fiat.
Hence my references to lamp posts.
Democrats everywhere are completely out of control and disenfranchising people everywhere. We, the People, are running out of boxes to express our displeasure.
You'll always have the Volokh Conspiracy to provide a platform for your whining.
What should come next is impeachment. Of course, the majority would probably say that the legislature isn’t quite pure enough to vote on that, either, and then you’d have a real constitutional crisis.
This constant battle over redistricting and claims of gerrymandering needs to be put to rest once and for all.
I agree.
SCOTUS had a chance, and muffed it.
What would you expect from Mr. Narrowest Grounds CJ Roberts?
Two members of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts thought their decision on same sex marriage was so obviously right that the people should not be allowed to overrule it. The legislature prevented the constitutional amendment from getting to the ballot so we never had a chance to see if they could get two more votes to protect the court from the voters.
The summary makes the North Carolina decision appear a blatantly politcal act, saying lawmakers can vote on some things but not things the court especially dislikes. I think the Supreme Court will decline to take the case anyway. If they set a precedent that the guarantee clause can be invoked, people will start invoking it.
There are a couple of ways for the US supreme court to go about fixing this.
The "Republican form of Government" guarantee is one, but it's not a well trod path.
But it's clearly a one man one vote violation:
The legislators in one district have more powers than a legislator in another district, which means the people in one district have more power than the people in another district, that's clearly unequal representation for quite a few voters.
Perhaps the NC SC could clarify there decision to get around the problem with a one sentence holding:
"All legislators and their constituents are equal, but some are more equal."
Oh, yeah and the court of appeals, or SCOTUS, if necessary should stay the ruling at least until after the election, as is pretty standard practice in these court decisions that change election procedures just a few months before election day.
Especially if it's changes that favor the majority party on the court.
The surest remedy is immediate impeachment and removal of these four so-called judges.
Then when the case returns it can be decided based on the words in the NC constitution.
re: "The legislators in one district have more powers than a legislator in another district"
How so? Gerrymandering makes a it more likely that one particular person will be the representative of that district but it doesn't grant the winner any more authority or power than the winner of a non-gerrymandered district. It's still one legislator per district. Nor does changing the shape of a district affect the number of people in the district. 'One man, one vote' isn't implicated at all.
Did you read the post?
The supreme court said that some legislators shouldn't have the power to vote for constitutional amendments, while others do, that gives some legislators more power than others.
I think he's saying that by stripping the power to vote on amendments from some representatives, the NCSC is thereby depriving the residents in those districts of representation, lessening the power of their votes.
I did some digging, and found that during the 65-year period in which the NC legislature was illegitimate because large numbers of black americans were disenfranchised, it proposed several constitutional amendments which are generally considered to have been ratified but which, in hindsight, are illegitimate and void.
One of these amendments enlarged the public school term from four months to six.
Another established a board of parole and authorized it to parole criminals.
And another "amendment" provided for a more uniform system of taxation.
All invalid!
Time to round up all the criminals released by the illegitimate parole board, let the kids out of school early, and make the tax system less uniform.
Is the court “playing with fire?” Or is it, to paraphrase Josh Blackman, demonstrating judicial courage under fire?
Look, if it’s a violation of the state constitution for the legislature to entrench itself through partisan gerrymandering (as the court has held), why wouldn’t it follow that the acts of a legislature that arrogated power to itself unconstitutionally could be deemed ultra vires? Seems pretty straightforward.
In 1900, North Carolina disenfranchised large numbers of black people in violation of the 15th Amendment.
This kept on until the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965.
The approved creating a parole board during that time, and voters agreed.
If that's ultra vires, it's time to round up everyone who was prroled and make them finish their sentences (unless pardoned).
You figure North Carolina's racist, unconstitutional, deplorable suppression of black votes and voters ended when the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was enacted?
What a stupid, ignorant, and partisan position.
How does this blog attract so many belligerently ignorant, bigoted commenters?
Other than by design, I mean.
When you signed up for basic logic classes in college (or high school), you were probably on your way to the classroom but got lost and came to an Andrew Dice Clay performance instead.
So it's no wonder you confuse logic with random invective.
" This kept on until the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965. "
If you contend that I misunderstood or misstated the meaning you intended with those words -- a meaning that differed from 'North Carolina stopped suppressing black votes in North Carolina in 1965, with the enactment of the Voting Rights Act' -- please illuminate the point.
Otherwise, your assertion was wrong and you should withdraw it.
You misstated or misunderstood, because you're either droolingly stupid or breathtakingly mendacious.
If you think North Carolina had no vote suppression before 1900, then I'm surprised you're even able to tie your own shoelaces.
The issue your comment -- "This kept on until the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965" -- involved is whether North Carolina continued to engage in racist voter suppression after 1865. The plain meaning of that declaration is that the suppression stopped when the Voting Rights Act was enacted.
If that is not what you meant, what did you intend?
You sense dishonesty and racism wherever you go - could it be you're carrying it with you?
The fact that you would dishonestly sever my comment from its context, which was the disenfranchisement of 1900 - is all we need to know about your standards of integrity.
You seem to be trying to throw sand in the eyes of your readers since I pointed out that your favorite political party had a disenfranchisement policy for 65 years. I will cheerfully acknowledge that your favorite party (Democrats) also had *other* periods when they practiced disenfranchisement or vote dilution. How that bolsters your lying, dishonest argument I have no idea.
Are you a bigoted right-wing culture war casualty, or are you just affecting that role for a bit of jousting?
You seem to meet the standard defintion of right-wing, because you are such an enthusiastic Brownshirt, fantasizing about stomping people and forcing things down their throats.
You fail to realize that your current allies will turn against you like the original Brownshirts' allies turned against them in 1934.
These three tests just seem entirely made up, to me. Where is the statutory basis for invalidating an amendment because it would "immunize" legislators from "democratic accountability"? What does that even mean in the first place?
How can a constitutional amendment put before the voters themselves "perpetuate" an "ongoing exclusion of a category" of those same voters? That doesn't even make sense, logically. It's a contradiction on its face.
And likewise how can a voted-upon constitutional amendment "intentionally discriminate" against the very same people who had a chance to vote for or against it? It's ludicrous.
It appears like they're literally just making things up at this point.
It falls into the category things democrats don’t like.
They don’t care and ends justify means
Also they don’t like the J6 protestors so no civil rights for them either
Why assume I do not like the January 6 participants?
I like them when they are dragged to jail.
I like them when they beg to be released from jail and are told to stay in jail.
I like them when they acknowledge their un-American conduct in court.
I like them when they whimper for mercy, blaming their crimes on ignorance, delusion, bad childhoods, and being stupid enough to fall for Trump.
I like them when they are sentenced to more time in prison.
I like them when they lose their jobs.
I like them when they lose their guns.
I like them just fine, when viewed from the proper perspective.
FO Arty
Which of the Volokh Conspiracy's all-talk, bigoted, inept, worthless right-wing fans is Adam Bies? Can anyone confirm the screen name?
I hope that 12-year-old never sees his father again, other than perhaps during prison visitations, separated by a glass partition. In particular, I hope the appropriate authorities place that child in a suitable home, from which he can overcome the obstacle of a lousy parent.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/08/18/schoolteachers-first-amendment-rights-to-publicly-criticize-transgender-pronoun-policies/?comments=true#comment-9659186
The Democrats at the Census Bureau "oopsied" and undercounted a bunch of red states and overcounted a bunch of blue states, causing at least a 4-5 seat shift in the House.
That means every bill passed by the Democrats is unconstitutional and illegal.
PA Supreme Court also decided election laws didn’t apply after the election when they needed extra votes that did not meet validity checks required by law for their party’s candidate to win.
And SCOTUS did nothing. At some point when a state goes full Putin they are violating the US constitution SCOTUS has to step in.
Seems like other state courts have decided they don’t like Dobb’s so state laws on abortion are no good because Dems don’t like them
It’s a trend.
Figured it out. It's actually same as the PA move. PA courts just once again ruled ballots in the primary that don't meet the valid ballot criteria can still be counted.
They haven't declared the voting law unconstitutional because it is constitutional.
But every time a little partisan nudge is needed in an election there they are putting their finger on the scale. AND the governor who would enforce the laws is a Democrat in PA. Bingo same situation in NC Governor is a Democrat. PA governor Wolf approves so no enforcement.
It's a collusion of a partisan court with a partisan governor over riding the actual branch of government's ability to make laws.
Well you see the General Welfare Clause grants Democrats the power to whatever they think is for the best.
In these cases, Democrats think it’s best for the people to not allow them to choose their own leaders but instead be led by self appointed Democrats.
It is a Sacred Democracy after all and we must defend it at all costs from Actual Democracy.
So voter fraud doesn't exist because the courts say so? Hahahahahahahah
So voter fraud doesn't exist because the courts say so?
Eh? Nothing here about voter fraud.
So the motivation of the NC court is not to affect elections? I think so. Which of course is just another method of fraud. But the same motive.
So the motivation of the NC court is not to affect elections? I think so. Which of course is just another method of fraud. But the same motive.
Just because something is headed in an authoritarian direction doesn't mean it's fraud.
Could be the most definitive statement of judicial superiority in modern times.
Maybe the NC Supreme Court could next decide their own membership.
Any challenge to putting a constitutional amendment on the ballot must happen before people vote on the amendment. Once they have voted, it's simply unacceptable to throw out the millions of votes cast in good faith. Most elections can be arguably said to have some problems, but nothing short of proven vote-counting fraud or error should invalidate an election result..
Can someone explain the difference between good and bad racial gerrymandering?
Gerrymandering to create minority majority districts is good.
Gerrymandering to create too few minority majority districts is bad.
Is this the correct understanding?
Where "too few" just means the number of them you'd get if you ignored race. Pretty much. Literally, the judiciary's current interpretation of the Voting Rights act requires that maps be racially gerrymandered to maximize minority representation.
We will never know the number if you ignored race, because race was not ignored in districting for quite some time, and is part of the baseline districting plans of many states.
Let me try again.
If a state had three districts and was 2/3 black and 1/3 white which would be the currently approved racial line drawing?
Two districts all black because it guarantees a black representative to each black voter.
Each district 2/3 black because it gives the greatest likelihood but no guarantee of the most black representatives elected.
Of course. Democrats gerrymandering is as bad or worse, but that's always ok.
Democrats are so desperate to stop a simple, common sense thing like voter ID (a policy common through the libtopian Europe) that they will issue absurd reasonings and flagrantly abuse constitutions and laws warranting impeachment.
Why is that?