The Volokh Conspiracy
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How Can Florida Gov. DeSantis Suspend Elected Prosecutor for Refusing to Enforce Certain Criminal Laws?
Gov. Ron DeSantis has suspended Tampa-area elected state prosecutor Andrew Warren (see this executive order, and this article in the Tampa Bay Times [Lawrence Mower]) for "neglect of duty." The core of DeSantis's stated basis seemed to be this:
- DeSantis cited Warren's having "publicly proclaimed in writing that he will not prosecute individuals who provide abortions in violation of Florida's criminal laws to protect the life of the unborn child."
- DeSantis cited Warren's having "acted as a law unto himself by instituting a policy during his current term of presumptive non-enforcement for certain criminal violations, including trespassing at a business location, disorderly conduct, disorderly intoxication, and prostitution."
- DeSantis also cited Warren's having publicly "pledge[d] to use our discretion and not promote the criminalization of gender-affirming healthcare or trans gender people," but acknowledged that "the Florida Legislature has not enacted such criminal laws." DeSantis therefore didn't argue that this pledge itself was neglect of duty, but argued that it "prove[s] that Warren thinks he has authority to defy the Florida Legislature and nullify in his jurisdiction criminal laws with which he disagrees" and that this "fundamentally flawed and lawless understanding of his duties as a state attorney" led to his non-enforcement policy as to "trespassing at a business location, disorderly conduct, disorderly intoxication, and prostitution."
This helps show how varied executive government structures are in various jurisdictions in our country. In the federal system, of course, the President can generally fire any local U.S. Attorney, because the President is the one elected federal executive official who is in charge of the other executive officials. (There are some complications related to specially-appointed independent federal prosecutors, but that's a minor feature of the system.) In many states, on the other hand, prosecutors are elected by local voters and are basically answerable just to them. And in some other states, there's something of a mix, and indeed that seems to be the situation under the Florida Constitution, art. IV, sec. 7:
(a) By executive order stating the grounds …, the governor may suspend from office any state officer not subject to impeachment, … or any county officer, for malfeasance, misfeasance, neglect of duty, drunkenness, incompetence, permanent inability to perform official duties, or commission of a felony, and may fill the office by appointment for the period of suspension. The suspended officer may at any time before removal be reinstated by the governor.
(b) The senate may, in proceedings prescribed by law, remove from office or reinstate the suspended official and for such purpose the senate may be convened in special session by its president or by a majority of its membership….
Of course, one could argue that "neglect of duty" doesn't include a prosecutor's exercise of discretion not to enforce certain kinds of laws, but that too is a question of state law. And under State v. Allen (Fla. 1937), prosecutors can indeed be suspended for categorical refusal to enforce certain laws:
The suspension of relator is grounded solely on "neglect of duty in office," one of the grounds named in Section Fifteen of Article Four of the Constitution. It is supported by allegation to the effect that in 1934 and 1935, gambling in Hillsborough County reached its peak, that in 1934 only seven informations were filed by relator charging gambling in said county, and that in 1935, no informations were filed by him charging gambling, that two of the informations filed in 1934 resulted from raids on the Panama Cafe requested by C. Jay Hardee in which gambling was seen carried on by the said C. Jay Hardee and the sheriff and his deputies, that no trials have been held under any of these informations and the reason given therefor by the solicitor was that the evidence in support of them was procured without a search warrant and was consequently not admissible….
The charge made for suspension was one named in the Constitution, to knowingly permit gambling and prefer no charges therefor was a neglect of duty, and the allegations with reference to gambling certainly had some reasonable relation to the charge made against the solicitor.
That, the court held, was a sufficient basis for the suspension, though it would be up to the state senate to consider whether the prosecutor was guilty:
We express no opinion as to the weight or sufficiency of anything of an evidentiary nature in the order of suspension. This and the range the evidence may take under the charge are matters for the Senate with which we are without power to interfere.
I expect the same would apply as to a non-enforcement pledge even before any opportunity to enforce the law comes up, since I take it that one important duty of a prosecutor's office is to deter future crime, something that won't happen when the prosecutor pledges not to prosecute the crime.
I in turn express no opinion as to which sort of relationship between the head of the state (or federal) Executive Branch and individual prosecutors is best: the federal, the Florida, or that in other states. But it does appear that Florida law contemplates the governor suspending prosecutors for refusing to enforce certain laws, or even for substantially underenforcing them.
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Can the activist base of the GOP support a governor of a state in which abortion is still legal up to 15 weeks?? Obviously the fact Trump won in 2016 shows how little power the activist base has…but DeSantis seems to have appeal to the activist base like Cruz.
I'm reminded of how DeSantis and other Florida Republicans vetoed the will of the people by gutting 2018's Amendment 4. That man is just hostile to voters making decisions he doesn't like.
I don't! What did he do?
Nope, didn't happen, as I explained in the open thread. The proponents of the Amendment explained it, prior to the election, in a manner that was consistent with what the legislature did. Then they changed their tune after the election was past.
Here's an academic paper on how the restrictions in the implementing legislation really were a choice on the part of the amendment sponsors, to make it easier to pass. They weren't invented by the legislature.
The Future of Felon Disenfranchisement Reform: Evidence from the Campaign to Restore Voting Rights in Florida
Or, here's a quote from one of the sponsors:
"Susanne Manning of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition told Vox that Amendment 4 “is going to affect people who have been waiting forever. People who have done their time. People who have finished their sentence, done their probation, paid their court costs, paid their fines, paid their restitution—and have still been waiting.”"
They made choices to make it easier to pass, and those choices limited the impact. But THEY made those choices, not the legislature.
Would you believe the word of someone who thinks a 2015 SCOTUS decision was the cause of a 2003 law?
I wouldn't.
Would I believe an argument which doesn't address the base issue, and instead resorts to an unsupported ad hominem argument?
No.
I've already explained to you that Obergefell was not the start of the judiciary imposing SSM, it was just the Court going out on the battlefield and killing the wounded after the war had already been won.
Brett. Bruh, let me translate. Felons means, diverse thugs who will only vote for the pro-criminal party, the Democrat Party. It is just gaslighting by servants of the Chinese Commie Party.
We love democracy. Until we don't.
Recall Prop 8 in California. I have no problem running off to courts to expand personal rights. But I don't run around in all other cases screaming of the validity of ignoring restraints because The People ostensibly want something some charismatic demagogue blathers they want.
What separation of powers? Prosecutors are members of the Executive. If a prosecutor is a threat to our children, he should not only be removed, but sent to prison for suborning child emotional, and sometimes, physical abuse. That applies to all pro-criminal scumbags, now fully in control of our failed criminal law system. These lawyer scumbags are allowing 15 million common law crimes and 100 million internet crimes.
Then, there are 100000 missing persons reports that are not resolved. They are likely murder victims. The failure of the scumbag lawyer profession is fatal to our people, especially to our diverses.
When you say "scumbag lawyer profession" are you referring to all lawyers or just the ones you consider corrupt?
Mr Behar appears to believe that "corrupt lawyer" is a redundancy.
I am not aware of any useful, non rent seeking, non thieving lawyer. If you can find one, I am willing to make an exception. Every year a lawyer breathes, it destroys $10 million from our economy. This is straight cash, and does not count their failures, for example, the real cost of crime, the real costs of covered up safety violations, the real cost of bastardy from their ongoing attacks on the American family. It could well be a $100 million a year per scumbag. They are far more toxic than organized crime.
I suggest you modify your position to speaking of the average. For example, One Kirkland [assuming he is actually an attorney] drags down ten Volokhs.
BTW, even if you are invoking hyperbole, your point is valid enough that you shouldn't degrade it by such extreme hatred.
Un. Did you ever hear the expression, easy as taking candy from a baby? Have you ever tried to take candy from a baby? Not so easy. Now try to take the $trillion rent from 1.5 million adults. You may have to crack some eggs. They will never just see the light of logic, facts and reason.
Eugene is a great human tragedy. He was a prodigy. He should have been a tech billionaire providing value to us all worth many multiples of his billions in personal assets. His intellect got destroyed by 1L. Now he is doing the same to hundreds of intelligent, ethical young people each year. He has to be on the list, like the religious leaders providing the intellectual justification for Al Qaeda, an enemy of our nation.
DeSantis was elected by a percentage of four-tenths of one percent, yet acts as if he were anointed dictator for life and uses his office (in an authoritarian manner) mostly to "own the libs."
Will that work in modern America, even in a southern state?
I expect time to demonstrate that Ron DeSantis, much like Samuel Alito, is a counterproductive indulgence for right-wingers. Using power to enforce unpopular, backward preferences seems a short-term strategy at best.
So carry on, clingers -- so far and so long as better Americans permit, as usual.
DeathSantis killed more Americans than Osama Bin Laden by attacking public health officials. So Florida and GA and SC could have a Covid death rate similar to NC had they not went nutz in 2021…and NC’s economy didn’t suffer due to mask mandates.
Now do Cuomo.
Cuomo seems to have been a jerk, much like DeSantis.
His personality is very off putting but he saved a lot of lives. Unfortunately with the right wing echo chamber Democrats that do good things will at most get a 55% approval rating because the right wing echo chamber is relentless in attacking Democrats. So that is why Obama only hit 56% approval after killing OBL while Bush was hitting 80% for being incompetent and not stopping 9/11. Trump’s low approval rating shows that another 80% approval rating is highly unlikely which considering how awful Bush was is probably a good thing.
He saved all those senior citizen lives when he shipped COVID patients to nursing homes!
C'mon Man! they were gonna die anyway, not everyone can get the Paxil-livid, I mean Pixa-lovid, I mean, whatever that shit they were shooting me up with! I told Hunter , "Hey (Man!) Now I'm the one getting IV drugs! why don't you go back to Ukraine and breathe some Burn Pit fumes! Only way I'll get re-elected in 24' is if I have another dead son to cry about!
So why does NY have a lower Covid death rate than FL even though NY has the most nursing home patients in America?? FL has significantly fewer nursing home patients than NY because unhealthy elderly generally don’t move to Florida to go to a nursing home.
Eeek! Facts!!
It does not. As of 7/25, NY's rate is 360/100,000, FL is 359/100,00. Dam things, those inconvenient facts.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
And that's not even adjusting for demographics: Covid deaths are very heavily age related, and Florida has a lot of retirees.
Indeed. Florida has the nation's second oldest population, NY comes in at around 25th -https://www.prb.org/resources/which-us-states-are-the-oldest/
Nope, Maine is the oldest state and it has a relatively low Covid death rate. With Covid % below poverty rate is the driver of Covid deaths all things being equal—but all things aren’t equal. 3 factors determine a population’s Covid death rate:
1. Initial wave
2. Travel restrictions
3. Low information Trump populations did awful after the vaccines were introduced
zztop says:
Florida has the nation's second oldest population, NY comes in at around 25th
Sebastian responds:
Nope, Maine is the oldest state
Damn, Sebastian, it has to be exhausting moving those goalposts around. No one said Florida was the oldest state, you moron.
It was August 4th when I posted that dum dum. Check out the updated data.
i checked it today , and both states are at an identical 362/100,000. What's that you were saying about NY having a lower rate?
Nope yourself. Just as I wrote, florida has the second oldest population, and NY is 25th.
Rev. Thank you for the groomer point of view. You are suborning ghoulish child abuse, as if by Dr. Frankenstein.
FL had a lower COVID death rate than NY (strict mask mandate and lockdown). And NC had a higher rate than no-maks mandate Nebraska. Masks and lockdowns have had very little impact in mortality rates, which are were far more affected by things like population density, age and levels of comorbidity risk factors (like obesity or diabetes)
What you are saying is backed by research papers and actual experience [e.g., Sweden]. What Cremmington is claiming is backed by CNN, the NYT, and WaPo. How dare you disagree with him?
Florida has a higher death rate than Florida even though when the vaccines were introduced NY had roughly twice as many Covid deaths. You people are so stupid!
Florida has a lower death rate. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
You keep linking to different data…even by your links the difference is inconsequential and it shows how awful Florida has done since the introduction of the vaccines v
I linked to two sites- one from Statista, showing that indeed the difference is inconsequential , with Florida being slightly LOWER, belying your idiotic claim that NY has a much lower death rate.
And I linked to the PRB site to show that Florida has BY FAR an older population than NY, so adjusted for population age, FL has done much, much better then NY.
Sebastian is just pissed because you're not using data that proves his point.
Comparing random states is pretty dumb, but the county with a quarter of Nebraska’s population had a mask mandate through February 2022. Masks aren’t a silver bullet but we have reams of data by state and county that shows masking mitigated spread prior to Omicron, and populations that masked have significantly lower Covid death rates. So had Florida done what NC did upwards of 20,000 fewer Floridians would have died. And that means over a several week period in August that more people could have been saved than died in 9/11. Ipso facto—DeathSantis killed more Americans than Osama Bin Laden!
So after you cherry picked a comparison of FL , GA and SC to NC and NY (and did it wrong, but that's for another day), now suddenly "Comparing random states is pretty dumb"?
there is no evidence that mask mandate did anything to reduce covid spread or death rates, your hand waving about "reams of data" notwithstanding.
You think 362 is less than 362–you are an idiot. Compare states that are always grouped together…nobody ever compares Alabama to Nebraska except in the 1990s in college football.
When I posted it, it was 359 vs 360, and yes, 359 is lower than 360. Today they are both at 362, the difference in both case is inconsequential, belying your fantasy that NY had better COVID mortality rates than FL. They had nearly identical rates, despite NY's harsh lockdowns and maks mandate, and FL's more lax attitude. There is simply no evidence that mask mandates or lockdowns did anything to limit spread or mortality,
Nebraska didn't have statewide mandates, but county mandates covered Omaha and Lincoln and all the other largest cities had city mandates (most notably Grand Island and Kearney). Describing the state as "no mask mandate" is either ignorant or deliberately misleading.
The same is true of several cities and large counties in Florida, including Miami-Dade, Palm Beach and Hillsborough (which includes Tampa).
What is your evidence that mask mandates did anything to reduce spread or mortality? There is none. Especially when you realize that mandates could be satisfied with cloth masks, which everyone today (including the awful CDC) concedes do not stop the spread.
Yep, and Orange County in Florida which defied DeathSantis has one of the lowest Covid death rates in Florida even with demographics similar to high Covid death rate counties in the Panhandle.
Orange county has a COVID mortality rate of 219. Miami-Dade which had similar mask Mandate to Orange county and similarity did not follow Desantis anti-mask orders is at 427.
Leon County in the panhandle which followed DeSantis' order regarding maks mandates is at 238. You can stop digging anytime now -there is simply no correlation between mask mandates and mortality rates.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/us/florida
You are really fucking stupid. Leon County had a mask mandate through the Delta death surge because it is a Democratic county. Also it is a super young county and if you’ve read my comments on previous posts you would know age makes a big difference in Covid death rate on the low end. On the high end age doesn’t have much of an impact because America in general is old and unhealthy. The reason age isn’t a big factor is because % below poverty level effectively trumps age on the high end.
I don't care if Leon county is Democratic or not - the point is that it followed DeSantis's orders and lifted the mask mandate, and still had a relatively low mortality rate, because mask mandates were immaterial to covid spread or mortality rates.
Age is the #1 factor in covid mortality, you simply have no idea what you are talking about : https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html
So Leon county likely had a low mortality rate because of that, despite lifting its maks manadates. That's also the likely reason that Orange had low rate, not its maks mandate, Martin had high rates correlated with its older population, as did Sumter.
Those correlations exist, but correlations with mask mandates do not.
Desantis' approval rating among Floridians is substantially higher than Joe Biden's approval rating among Americans, yet Biden governs as if he doesn't have the lowest approval ratings at this point in his presidency of any modern president.
American voters preferred Pres. Biden by a margin of seven or eight million. (The edge was particularly large in educated, modern, accomplished states.) Biden won by 4.4 percent -- roughly 11 times the margin of victory that placed DeSantis in office.
Of course, this is before all of the election stealing, rigged voting machines, election fraud, bamboo ballots, Italian cybervoting, Dominion cheating, Venezuelan ballot-stuffing, etc. is taken into consideration by Volokh Conspiracy fans.
Ballots preferred Biden, not voters.
There's a difference.
The Dead love Biden
There isn't.
"Reverend" and you're welcome for me not highlighting how long it's been since you've succumbed to your weakness for young boys,
and perhaps the years of Incarceration and Anal Violation, have afflicted your memory, buttttttttttttt
Biden was elected by 538 "Electors" chosen by the Several States as their Legislatures may direct (I prefer the original version where Electors chose 2, wouldn't a Biden/Pence Administration be great??)
So Sleepy Joe did win, 306 to 232, or by 74, a little less than your "Seven or Eight Million""(What's a million here or there?)
And a few less dead peoples voting in Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Arizona, and....
But hey, Sleepy's doing a "Bang Up" Job, gotta admire how his party stands behind him....
Frank
This fact may shock you, but we don't choose presidents via popular vote.
It's like you telling me the basketball scores and bragging that your team had the most rebounds.
You should brush up on basic civics.
Bush’s approval rating hit 80% after he failed to stop the 9/11 terrorists. Obama’s only hit 56% after he killed Osama Bin Laden…approval rating is pretty dumb although it definitely can be used to make predictions about presidential elections in the week or two before the election which polls can also do.
Bush cut taxes and didn't charge peoples a penalty for not buying shitty insurance. And Bin Laden was only still alive in 01 due to incompetent Clinton administration. Oh, and Obama was a huge dickhead.
Lol, you are still making excuses for Bush even though he wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire. And Dick Cheney could shoot you in the face and you would apologize to him. You should go by—Frank Cuckman. 😉
And Sleepy Joe WOULD Piss on me??? (not on purpose of course, that BPH's a bee-otch) umm, where I come from we don't appreciate peoples pissing on us, even if we were "on fire" (funny, 60 years old, never set myself on fire)
Umm, don't really like Dick Chaney, fat fuck could have easily beat Barry Hussein in 08' if he'd done the proper preparation, not having a heart attack every week, and Liz is even worse than the Lesbo daughter...
And I don't need to come up with a nickname for you, oh wait a minute "Se-bastard" , seriously "Sebastian"??? did you carry Poo-Bear to School every day??
Frank
" Liz is even worse than the Lesbo daughter... "
Prof. Volokh:
How is your "civility standards program" (the one you claim to be enforcing when you censor commenters who criticize conservatives at your white, male, right-wing blog) coming along?
If you apologize, I will have less occasion and reason to highlight your dishonesty and hypocrisy.
Anyone that believes any Republican could have won in 2008 against any Democrat is delusional—Bush’s approval was in the low 20s because he was an awful president.
Great Italians both of them...giving to the bolshies every day. And don't forget..October is Italian American History Month...now it is time for media and especially hollywood to allow Italian Americans their rightful place.
Certain groups have been overtly attacking and discriminating against Italian Americans for decades..it really needs to stop.
Today I learned Rev Artie no longer believes in the popular vote deciding elections. Why is he trying to undermine democracy?
The only valid action to remove elected officials is the next election, for poor performance of their duties, or impeachment as the relevant constitution outlines.
These are not government employees. They are the government. They serve at the pleasure of The People, not at the pleasure of other officials.
That isn't what Florida law provides.
Does the fact that the Florida Supreme Court has interpreted the Florida Constitution’s right of privacy clause as containing a state abortion right have anything to do with this?
Could the district attorney sue in the Florida courts and argue that because under current precedent the abortion law violates the state constitution, the Governor had no legal authority to characterize refusing to enforce it as neglect of duty, and hence no legal authority to remove him?
Florida appears to recognize the common-law writ of quo warranto, which would seem a catch-all way to address the situation in the courts if there is no other more specific route.
I haven't shephardized it, but the Allen decision that Prof. Volokh cites would seem to allow courts to adjudicate such a claim.
And here it is, a 2019 Florida Supreme Court Case in which the Florida Supreme Court denies a writ of quo warranto by an official who claimed her suspension by Governor De Sanctis was in violation of law.
Jackson lost her case, as the Florida Supreme Court held the suspension was valud. But petitioning the Florida Supreme Court for a writ of quo warranto does indeed appear to be the correct route to challenge a suspension of this nature.
https://law.justia.com/cases/florida/supreme-court/2019/sc19-329.html
According to the opinion, if a suspension order identifies a constitutional ground for suspension and alleges facts sufficient to support the ground, it is valid, and the matter is then up to the Senate.
That said, I would think that it cannot be neglect of duty to refuse to enforce an unconstitutional law, so at least some of the alleged facts are insufficient.
The writ called quo warranto is traditionally used to challenge the right to hold office. In Massachusetts when no other relief is available one can bring an action in the nature of certiorari if the record clearly shows a substantial error.
If it were just the abortion law he could have a good point, but there were lots of other laws he said he wouldn't enforce like shoplifting and prostitution, so its going to be hard to just rely on the status of abortion.
De Sanctis’ action isn’t solely based on the abortion issue. But the fact that it is based on it in substantial part might be enough to invalidate it.
The DA did not say he would use discretion, he said that nope, I don't like that law and I will not enforce it.
Reminds me of Obama vis-à-vis DACA
Wouldn't malfeasance work just as well as neglect-of-duty?
re: #3 - I would go further and say that Warren thinks he has the authority to "nullify in his jurisdiction criminal laws with which he disagrees" because he does in fact have such authority. It's inherent in the doctrine of Prosecutorial Discretion.
The only relevant question is whether a prosecutor is a subordinate member of the Executive Branch subject to discipline by the head of that Branch or has some kind of free-standing authority. If subordinate, then Warren's authority to nullify is bounded by his boss's tolerance of such action.
Being separately elected is a clue but not the sole determinant of the answer, especially as here where the state constitution grants disciplinary authority to the governor.
What's the difference between prosecutorial discretion (good) and jury nullification (bad)?
The difference is in who does it - and both are good.
I'd say the difference is a prosecutor has a boss, who's directives they are obligated enforce, whereas a jury has none and who's decision is final.
So the voters are boss. Who's *their* boss? They don't have a boss any more than a jury does.
The voters don't have a boss, but a prosecutor certainly does. He doesn't get the option to pick and chose what parts of his job he wants to do.
So politics over the will of the people as embodied by the jury, got it.
Where is there politics here? Just like any job, public or private sector, if you are unwilling or unable to do your job, you don't get to keep it.
Refusing to do part due to your personal beliefs is about as political as it gets.
No one cares what the prosecutor's personal opinion of the the laws they are hired to enforce, nor does anyone care about their willingness to take orders from their employer. If they have trouble with that time to find new employment. It is irrelevant what the law is they are employed to prosecute violations of. He is a prosecutor, not a legislator or governor. He doesn't get to set policy.
I see that I misunderstood your point.
"Refusing to do part due to your personal beliefs is about as political as it gets."
If a pharmacist doesn't want to dispense legally prescribed medications, does this standard apply to them as well?
It's a lot more defensible to say that a prosecutor, who couldn't prosecute every crime committed in their jurisdiction even if they wanted to, has a reason to choose where to use their limited resources than a pharmacist.
"If a pharmacist doesn't want to dispense legally prescribed medications, does this standard apply to them as well?"
Yes, yes it does. If you can't do your job, find another career. I can respect someone who to their own detriment follows their conscience, but that doesn't mean your employer needs to accommodate you.
The problem with the "refusing to do your job" argument is that it presupposes that it actually is the prosecutor's job to prosecute every instance of every possible crime. That is simply untrue.
Not only is that not in the prosecutor's job description, the opposite is there. Principles of fairness and justice require prosecutors to exercise discretion and to not prosecute when that would result in an unjust outcome. They are also supposed to (and in fact are required to) exercise discretion in allocation of scarce resources. The doctrine of prosecutorial discretion is deeply built into our legal system.
You might get a prosecutor fired because he/she is exercising that discretion in a way that you don't like but you will eliminate that discretion. Nor should you try to.
And that policy is a matter of departmental, or in this case State, priority, not personal preference. You can't have everyone making it up as they go. That's arbitrary and capricious, in other words, anarchy. Justice can't depend on the luck of the draw as to who happens to get assigned to your case. Remember that whole "We are a nation of laws, not men" thing?
It's bad enough we have defendants who go judge shopping. Do we want to extend that to prosecutors as well?
1. "Shopping" for prosecutors happens all the time. That horse is long out of the barn.
2. You are correct that the prosecutor is accountable to his/her "boss" for the exercise of discretion (and the interesting question above is whether or not the governor counts as that boss) but the principle of discretion and the risk of capricious non-enforcement is inherent to the system. As a ... not just society but the entirety of the Western legal system ..., we grant prosecutors greater discretion to arbitrarily not prosecute than to prosecute.
Lest you still think that prosecutors must prosecute every possible crime, consider this story from another article on Reason today.
"In 2021, she prosecuted Pamela Moses for violating the law by attempting to register to vote. Moses had lost the right to vote in Tennessee for a previous conviction but said she had been told by a corrections officer that she could have her right to vote restored if she had completed probation. That officer was wrong. But Weirich's office went after Moses, and when she insisted on a jury trial for the chance to prove her innocence, the D.A.'s office threw the book at her. When she was convicted, her office asked for and received a six-year sentence for Moses, seemingly as punishment for fighting back and not accepting a plea deal."
That was an unjust prosecution which should never have been pursued. Your mindless "do your job" approach would deprive even the good prosecutors from actually doing their job.
This doesn't sound like the problem was lack of prosecutorial discretion:
"Subsequently, the state revealed that it was, in fact, their fault that Moses got bad advice and acknowledged its error at the time that Moses was convicted. A judge determined that prosecutors failed to disclose this evidence at the trial. The judge ordered a new trial for Moses, upon which Weirich announced her office was dropping the charges."
Did this prosecutor claim that he just doesn't have enough money to enforce the abortion laws, etc? If that's not his claim, then if he goes to the state Senate he would have to try a different line of defense, like "these laws are unconstitutional." If the Senate accepts that premise (though I hope they won't), then they should let the guy keep his job, because he's refusing to enforce a non-law, which is a non-offense.
But if these laws are constitutional, then by all means throw him out.
That's a whole different argument. Nevertheless That a job for the State Supreme Court, not the prosecutor.
I think these laws are 100% constitutional, so he should be fired for not enforcing them.
But what if it were a law to forbid "hate speech," or confiscate all guns, etc?
If the only way to test the constitutionality of such laws was to arrest some poor sap, threaten them with imprisonment, and hope they contest the charges, then maybe there would be force to your argument.
But there's another avenue to review these constitutional questions - to go after the prosecutor for non-enforcement, which in Florida at least has a specified procedure. If the Senate agrees this law is unconstitutional, and lets the prosecutor off the hook, that's close enough to judicial review for me. Especially when the alternative is to imprison some person exercising their constitutional rights and impose heavy legal fees on them.
Why not let the prosecutor take the risk of being punished for non-enforcement, rather than take it out on people disobeying a law which might be invalid?
What's the difference between prosecutorial discretion (good) and jury nullification (bad)?
Plenary power.
?
Sheriff's are elected too, lets not forget DeSantis fired Scott Israel the Sheriff where the Parkland School shooting happened. His reasoning was not only lack of leadership in the poor response, but failure to take any action against Nicholas Cruz despite multiple run ins with the law. The Senate upheld the removal, and he is gone.
The Governor of Florida taking action to remove local officials may not be an everyday occurrence, but its been done, and fairly recently.
Is DeSantis afraid to do the dirty work himself? He should simply take such cases away from the D.A. and have his Attorney General prosecute them. That’s what Gov Pataki of New York did in 1997 when the Bronx D.A. refused to pursue the just-enacted death penalty.
Maybe Florida law differs?
I don't know. Does it? Maybe Eugene, who has done the research, can answer that question. It seems relevant to this discussion.
That doesn’t solve the issue of having a prosecutor in office who declines to do his job.
Are you claiming that other prosecutors don't decline to prosecute specific crimes? Because that would be a really thin branch to stand on.
I think probably the only difference here is that DeSantis likes to use the power of the state to punish those who he doesn't like.
Which is why 1838 special tax districts in Florida are A-OK to him, but the other 6 were awful and needed to be eliminated.
I wonder what the difference between the vast majority of special tax districts and Disney's was? Perhaps something about speech DeSantis didn't like?
Of course DeSantis didn't like Disney getting involved in a state political debate, but Disney's special district was hardly a run of the mill special district, giving a corporation near total control over a substantial chunk of land. Making the corporation an unelected political subdivision.
Maybe it would have been a good idea to stay out of local politics if they cared about their special status as a corporate run jurisdiction.
Other prosecutors do not publicly decline to prosecute a whole class of law.
With his pen and phone?
Most folks here think this is a legal use of executive authority, which is not the analogy I think you're trying to make...
The context Obama used that in was if he couldn’t get what he wanted out of Congress, so no not really.
Most folks who favored it when Obama were a lot less pleased when Trump did. Hard to imagine, huh?
Obama did it because he had to. He was facing a Congress that rejected everything he proposed even if they had supported it the day before.
Trump did it because he didn’t know how the federal government works and he was too lazy to ask a compliant Congress to do it correctly.
So the President unilaterally usurping the role of Congress is cool if Congress is opposed to what the President wanted, but if Congress might have reached the same outcome itself the President's hands are tied?
O...kay.
Amazing how tribalism is the enemy of principle, right?
I oppose all executive orders that usurp the power of Congress, even if I support the policy. Because an imperial Presidency is a bad thing regardless of whether George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, or Joe Biden is the one doing it.
Anyone else agree?
I do.
Yes and no. Congress is supposed to have all positive legislative power. Executive orders that usurp power by imposing regulations that have the effect of law are a bad thing and I oppose them even when I like the policy.
The Executive Branch does, however, have negative legislative power. Executive orders that reject a regulation or that decline to enforce a law (especially on constitutional grounds) are not usurpations of congressional power. Whether I support those executive orders depends entirely on my opinion of the underlying policy.
Note: the fact that Congress has the power to enact laws but no power to enforce them - the fact that it requires the consent of an independent branch of government for enforcement - is a feature, not a bug. The idea behind divided government is to intentionally place roadblocks such as this in government's way so the people retain as much liberty as possible for as long as possible.
"Executive orders that reject a regulation or that decline to enforce a law (especially on constitutional grounds) are not usurpations of congressional power."
But wouldn't that be a usurpation of judicial power?
I agree with your note. Co-opting the powers of any of the three co-equal branches of government makes it easier to restrain liberty.
Not what I said.
And it wasn't that long ago. We all remember what happened.
Obama didn't usurp anything, LoB. That's just the usual right-wing calling everything they don't like tyrannyb.
He had to scale his policy plans way down to fit within the executive power rather than be passed via lawmaking.
Because the GOP had gotten to the point that even good policy was worth sacrificing if it meant owning the libs. A shame.
"I have a pen and a phone" is a threat. Resisting a threat isn't "owning" your attacker, it's protecting yourself. As I point out lower down the conversation here, what strikes me about the DeSantis team is how organized and methodical they are. They never threaten, they find solid ground to stand on and then act. Obama had all kinds of national good will to draw upon, and he had plenty of time to get things done. Instead of going about the changes he wanted from a position of slow strength, he decided to take the easy way out, quick and dirty. That's my take on it, FWIW.
No, it's not a thread, weirdo. It was Obama saying what he was going to do, and then he did it, and the whole thing wasn't very threatening, though it did make the usual suspects yell. But they were going to yell anyway.
LTBF seemed to be arguing Obama's 'pen and phone' actions were illegal.
Obama used his executive power as he could when Congress was in full-on block everything mode. That is a Presidential prerogative. Sometimes he overstepped, but it was always borderline - a SCOTUS decision level question.
Trump did the same thing, albeit in my view in service of more partisan ends than policy ends. He in my view abused the process when it came to emergency powers, but again that was a SCOTUS-level question. Trump overstepped when it came to the election, though it is clear he wanted to overstep a lot more but was stopped by his staff. Most of whom he fired.
Biden is doing the same thing.
DeSantis, on the other hand, is flaunting the US Constitution to do performative culture war bullshit. However, in this case, he is within his power in the culture war bullshit.
Well, which is it? Flaunting the law or within the law? Can't be both.
In this case, means he'd done other shit.
Hope this helps in your future reading.
Well what other shit has he done that's unconstitutional?
Us constitutionalists need to know.
How can he suspend a Prosecutor for "refusing to enforce certain criminal laws"
How can he NOT suspend a Prosecutor for refusing to enforce certain criminal laws?? I'm just a stupid Gas Passer, but generally, in Medicine, Doctors get fired (Yes, Doctors DO get fired) for not doing their jobs.
How about a prosecutor who refuses to prosecute Afro-Amuricans for drug crimes, because how did Don Giuseppi put it in "The Godfather"?
"They're animals anyway, so let them lose their souls"
OK, I know not prosecuting Afro-Amuricans for Drug Crimes is pretty much how it is in all the big Urban areas...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=they%27re+animals+anyway+godfather&&view=detail&mid=C20573EEACCD6FB633DFC20573EEACCD6FB633DF&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dthey%2527re%2Banimals%2Banyway%2Bgodfather%26FORM%3DHDRSC3
Not surprising.
If an official openly says they won't carry out the law, then they should be able to be removed.
Let's all bookmark this. It'll be very useful the next time AL argues the exact opposite position in the future.
During the pandemic, various conservative public officials openly said they wouldn't enforce mask mandates that were legal under state law. Should they have been removed?
"Legal under state law"?? So was Slavery (at the time) and Segregation, sometimes you gotta take the MLK Jr. route. This Florida Dickhead was locking up Preachers for having services and not prosecuting Gang members for shooting into homes.
Very few liberal officials in Massachusetts enforced the governor's mask order. They didn't boast about not enforcing it. They talked about it, they requested compliance, but almost all of them did not cite violators.
Which reminds me. During the Trump era there was some kerfuffle about a federal DA in I think New York, where the federal court had appointed someone to a vacancy because the Senate hadn't got round to confirming someone, and there were questions about whether Trump could fire the guy the court appointed. Did we ever arrive at an answer as to :
(a) how it's constitutional for the judiciary to appoint executive branch people ? and
(b) whether the President can fire such folk ?
We did not get an answer. The guy resigned voluntarily rather than trigger a constitutional crisis.
See https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/barr-trump-has-removed-top-federal-prosecutor-in-manhattan
Desanctimonious' jackassery knows no bound.
"instituting a policy during his current term of presumptive non-enforcement for certain criminal violations, including trespassing at a business location, disorderly conduct, disorderly intoxication, and prostitution."
Is there anyone here who runs a small business and who is willing to support this policy?
I don't have any opinion about the substance of this action, but I will say that I am again very impressed by the unity, thoroughness and preparedness of the DeSantis organization. This is going to be a very tough bunch to beat. They do their homework, they know where all the edges are, they pick very solid ground to fight on, and they speak together.
This may be just a personal impression, but the Trump team always seemed to me to be flying by the seat of their pants, and the Biden team is inept and surprisingly weak. Maybe it's DeSantis' military training. The dude is organized.
I don't know, he might have some trouble against Charlie Christ.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I crack myself up, just curious about who DiSanto will be running against, and saw they haven't even had the Primary yet, and even Christ probably won't win against the other candidate "Nikki Fried" (Nikki Reed probably would do as well)
Charlie Christ, Already lost in 14, but hey, at least he's not a Black Gay Drug Addict, he's a White Gay Drug Addict.
Frank
" Maybe it's DeSantis' military training. "
As I understand it, DeSantis used the military to pay for school, then promptly became a lawyer for the military. Did he complete basic training -- or was he waved into a military lawyer's office chair, risking the occasional coffee cup burn or maybe a paper cut here and there?
It appears that after three years as a military lawyer, he was assigned to a job in a U.S. Attorney's office. The only action DeSantis saw, it seems, was avoiding genuine military service after taking military money to pay for law school.
One man's patriotic journey.
Yeah. I realize the line can be quite grey, but prosecutors are executive officers. When they start making decisions about entire categories of laws (not prioritizing among different violators of the same law), they are acting as legislators, and that's improper.
On the face of it, this seemed like an unconstitutional overreach, but the FL constitution is quite explicit. The legislature even tried to amend their constitution so they could remove attorneys as well, and "preserve the Governor’s existing authority to suspend state attorneys and public defenders from office".
At first I thought DeSantis was acting like an autocrat, but seeing he actually has this authority, I applaud his use of that authority in this case.
IANAL, but I can't believe some of the comments here...
If a prosecutor knows a crime has been intentionally committed, and has solid evidence of who committed the crime, he or she must act on it, or is lawfully negligent. I don't think any definition of "prosecutorial discretion" allows otherwise.
Barnstormer demands that Trump be arrested!
That's literally what prosecutorial discretion is.
Then I submit that somewhere along the way, something got screwed up. The legal profession, especially the DA side of it, needs a wake-up call.
Well here we have some Gubernatorial discretion at work.
I remember Kim Davis. In essence, the Andrew Warren situation is no different.
I disagreed with Volokh then. Davis was a public servant bound to perform a task only her office could, and I didn’t see how “Public Accommodations” could be made in her situation.
You can quibble over religious versus political idealism, but at the end of the day both were refusing to do their jobs on ideological grounds in defiance of what was prescribed by law. Abortion restrictions are the law in Florida, and if you refuse to prosecute lawbreaking because you don’t like the law or its results, fine. Step aside and resign or be removed.
They hated Trump in 2016. They loved him after he governed like Jeb!
Not really. If you recall, at least during the campaign Trump's primary appeal was to people who weren't particularly politically active prior to 2016, but were deeply angry and disaffected. Things changed after the election, and a lot of activists got on the bandwagon and claimed they had really been there all along.
Rhoid, great comment, bruh.
And now Dick Cheney is attacking Trump—Lizard Cheney is bringing out the attack dog!!! I remember when criticizing a Cheney would get one renditioned to Gitmo to be tortured!
I thought he was a decent SECDEF, but after that, not so much. Too Washington machine for my liking.
And he took Somnolent Joe's advice, "Got a Shotgun" and shot his hunting buddy in the heart (and that was a dude he didn't have a problem with, imagine what he'd do to Trump)
All governors should fire all prosecutors if their jurisdiction crime rate goes up for the year. That rate should be measured by household crime victimization survey, since these scumbags make the police throw out crime reports.
Guy got 3 years for threatening Fauci. So much for the immediacy requirement when it comes to threatening Democrat attack dogs like Fauci.