The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Progressive Free Exercise Clause
Progressives are pivoting to find arguments that will work with a conservative Court.
When Justice Kennedy reigned supreme, advocates on both sides had to frame arguments to appeal to the swing vote's proclivities. Mix a little federalism, sprinkle some dignity, balance everything out, and BAM! You got a narrow, incoherent 5-4 opinion in your favor. Thankfully, those days are long gone. But now, there is a new game in town: the way to win is religious liberty. And progressives have turned to the free exercise clause.
Exhibit A is abortion. Before Dobbs even dropped, members of progressive faiths argued that the Free Exercise Clause, and state RFRAs require exemptions to abortion restrictions. Indeed, Marci Hamilton, who has long assailed RFRA, has learned to stop worrying and love the substantial burden test. If there is hope to persuade a conservative Court to protect abortion, it must be based on religious liberty.
Exhibit B is affirmative action. Yesterday, a group of Catholic universities filed an amicus brief in the Harvard and UNC cases. The brief, authored in part by Kathleen Sullivan, argues that the Free Exercise Clause supports a religious liberty claim to consider race in admissions.
For Catholic colleges and universities like amici in particular, the Free Exercise Clause supplies an additional constitutional dimension to the compelling interest in racial diversity as one factor among many in admissions. Amici's foundational Catholic values and teachings inform their commitment to give value to the identity of the whole person in admissions and to compose a student body that will, after graduation, promote the Catholic mission of the common good and service to others, especially the poor and underserved.
Common good!? Did Vermeule ghostwrite this brief? That has to get five votes, right? Who knew that the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA support such progressive outcomes? Really Roe and Grutter should have been Free Exercise Clause cases--so much more elegant. The Due Process Clause and Equal Protection Clause can take a backseat to religious liberty.
I expect a third category to be environmentalism. Groups will argue they have a religious liberty interest in pristine nature, clean air, endangered species, etc. The APA is only the starting point. RFRA will be the backstop.
If you sense some sarcasm in my tone, you're very perceptive. I worry that these claims will irreparably set back the religious liberty movement. It took three decades of careful work to move the ball from Smith to Fulton. But less than two years after Justice Ginsburg's death, litigants are prepared to gerrymander the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA to fit every facet of the progressive agenda.
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"The brief, authored in part by Kathleen Sullivan, argues that the Free Exercise Clause supports a religious liberty claim to consider race in admissions."
Oh yeah, it's right here in the Bible:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Oh, wait - - - -
I'm sorry, where does Galatians 3:28 mention race? It says nothing about there not being black or white. Besides which, not every religion is founded on the Bible, and the others are entitled to protection too.
Do I understand correctly? The idea is, you give us money now. You will be rewarded after your death. Is that the scheme?
Now the scumbag lawyer wants to base national policy on that scheme? It is the best scam ever, I give it that.
On top of that is, there is nowhere to look up a religious tenet. It is subjective, whatever the person believes, not any religious authority. I identify as the Paraclete of Caborga. My book was removed from the Bible by the rent seeking hierarchy of the early Church. As that person, I believe the lawyer profession is an abomination, and its hierarchy should be arrested. Any problem with that?
The lawyer profession is faith based. They believe minds can be read, future rare accidents can be forecast. And that standards are set by a fictitious character, a thinly veiled Jesus. They are quite delusional. The Catholic Church attributed those powers to God in accordance with their faith. Not even the Church said, man had those supernatural powers.
Let's see if the scumbag lawyer profession will arrest or sue the crime victim.
https://ijr.com/80-year-old-store-owner-fires-suspect/
We are sick of this scumbag lawyer profession protecting, coddling, privileging, and empowering all the violent criminals instead of killing them. The sole purpose of the scumbag lawyer profession is to generate worthless, rent seeking jobs.
This brief is specifically advocating the position of Catholic colleges.
While no expert on Catholic theology, it is my understanding that they hold to the Bible as interpreted by history, tradition, and the teachings of the church. The Bible also says that a bishop is to be the husband of one wife, which is not current Catholic polity.
That said, I have no doubt there are other Biblical passages that could be construed as teaching racial justice, which in turn could be construed as supporting affirmative action. One of the wonderful things about the Bible is it is so malleable; give me any position at all and I'll find you a Biblical passage to back it up.
" give me any position at all and I'll find you a Biblical passage to back it up."
OK...I'll take you up on that.
Find a biblical passage to back up the position "Trump is the greatest president ever".
This will be fun, no matter how it turns out.
That's not the type of position I had in mind, but here goes:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/3/5/16796892/trump-cyrus-christian-right-bible-cbn-evangelical-propaganda
Other Christians have a different view:
https://www.alamongordo.com/bible-say-donald-trump/
Black and White are not the only races that have ever been.
It's in there, but you will have to learn a bit of the ancient world history and sociology to see it.
Oh, so the Bible as interpreted by you. Thanks for clearing that up.
More to the point, the line "Jews and Greeks" refers to people of different ethnicities, directly analogous to "races"
Nope. In the King James Version, "Greek" means Gentiles; the division Paul is talking about is between Jew and Gentile.
And....those were still different ethnicities.
But that wasn't the relevant factor. It was a division based on religion. There were people of non-Jewish ethnicity who converted to Judaism.
No; you're looking at it from the perspective of 21st century America, which uses the term 'religion' promiscuously as a set of beliefs analogous to Christianity. But Judaism is not a creedal 'religion' in which one is a member by professing a system of beliefs. Then (and now), "Jew" referred to a people, not a 'religion.' Ethnicity is a better analogy than religion, but that's a bit misleading too, because we tend to view ethnicity as race-like, something you're born with and cannot change. Jews are a tribe, a people, a nation.
"...neither male nor female..."
So the Apostle Paul anticipated, and supported, modern gender-fluidity theory. Who'dathunkit?
The most important step in this direction - which is one progressives will not like - is to declare atheism a religion. That actually underlies many of their Free Exercise claims.
Oh religious people have been arguing for years that atheism is a religion. And in some cases it has been treated as a religion for First Amendment purposes.
But I see no good reason why atheists aren't just as entitled to a conscience exemption as the religious. If someone is entitled to an exemption because a ghost told him to, then why shouldn't someone else be entitled to a conscience exemption based on reason and logic?
Belief in climate change is a religion and Greta is the messiah.
What about belief in Newton's laws of motion; is that a religion too?
Your jet flight proves Newton's laws are not based on faith, when you land at your destination in Chicago, verifiably, not faith based.
This is a useful framing for religious extremists because they can declare anything they don't like to be a form of heresy.
How would one go about declaring atheism a religion and who would declare it?
I DECLARE ATHEISM A RELIGION!
- Micheal Scott
Right, and not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Right, and not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Your grasp of bumber sticker retorts...based on middle school reasoning...isn't as impressive as you might think.
The above would might be somewhat apt were the subject declaring agnosticism to be a religion, as that particular philosophy makes no claims regarding the metaphysical, and in fact posits that knowledge of things such as the existence/non-existence of deities is inherently unobtainable. Atheism...as it is most often used in this context...refers to a positive belief that there are no deities, not simply the absence of belief in one or more deities.
Please tell me you cut and pasted that from a Josh McDowell tract and aren't silly enough to have come up with it on your own.
Here's what atheism actually holds: I cannot prove that God does not exist, any more than I can prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. But, I don't believe things for which there is no good evidence, and thus far, theists have yet to produce any.
That does not, however, make me agnostic on the question of whether God exists, any more than it makes me agnostic on the question of whether the Easter Bunny exists. Show me some evidence, I'll reconsider. It's not that I believe God "can't" exist; it's that thus far I've seen no evidence for it. Or for leprechauns, or for Father Christmas, or for Bertrand Russell's china teapot orbiting the planet Mars.
I really hope Elon had a teapot in that Roadster he launched. Not orbiting Mars, but not on earth, either.
You're redefining "atheism" to mean the same thing as "agnosticism", and they're different words for a reason: They mean different things.
Are you agnostic on the question of whether the Easter bunny exists? Will you concede some tiny possibility that he might, even though you consider the likelihood at near zero?
It’s the old issue with trying to prove the negative. It’s almost impossible to prove most negatives. I can’t prove Elvis isn’t camped out in Buckingham Palace. But I’m quite certain he isn’t, even though there’s a tiny pissyi may be wrong.
It's almost like you "believe" God doesn't exist.
That would be atheism.
If I had to bet money on it, my bet would be that God doesn't exist and that Elvis isn't camped out in Buckingham Palace and that there isn't a china teapot orbiting the planet Mars. I believe none of those to be true. There is a small, though non-zero, possibility I could be mistaken as to any or all of them. But the likelihood is so small there's no practical point to taking it into consideration.
That's the practical equivalent of atheism. Again, there's no point in having two words, "agnostic" and "atheist" if you're going to redefine one to mean the same as the other.
"Agnostics" don't know, and "atheists" think not. That the latter may reserve some sane residue of doubt doesn't change that.
Atheism is an active, non-falsifiable faith about the existence of god(s), spirits, afterlife, etc.
It's no different than the other active, non-falsifiable faiths about the existence of god(s), spirits, afterlife, etc.
Secular Humanism, General; don't forget Secular Humanism.
"Humanism has an impressive history. With deep roots in the early Greek philosophers and in Eastern thinkers" etc.
"Beginning in 1927, a number of Unitarian professors and students at the University of Chicago who had moved away from theism organized the Humanist Fellowship." etc.
"Around the same time, Charles Francis Potter founded the First Humanist Society of New York. Formerly a Baptist and then a Unitarian minister, Potter began the society with the intent of it being a religious organization, calling humanism 'a new faith for a new age.'" etc.
"A major humanist milestone was achieved in 1933 when A Humanist Manifesto was written" etc.
"The American Humanist Association (AHA) was formed in 1941, when Curtis W. Reese and John H. Dietrich, two well-known Unitarian ministers and humanists, reorganized the Humanist Press Association in Chicago, into the American Humanist Association.
"The goal was not to establish a religion as Potter had originally intended but instead to recognize the nontheistic and secular nature of humanism, organize its advocates, and align the organization for the mutual education of both its religious and nonreligious members."
Thus, not a religion. I'm surprised there was ever any question.
https://americanhumanist.org/about/our-history/
There's not a question.
There are only some sophomoric arguments.
Of course, it says right there they didn't *mean* to establish a religion, therefore they can't have established a religion, QED. They simply set up an organization to teach proper spiritual principles to the members.
Iirc atheism is a religion in that it suffers the same first amendment religious protections as standard religions, and is not just protected via free speech.
I don't see why that would make it a religion.
Presumably the Establishment Clause, at least for now, doesn't let government discriminate against atheists, but that hardly makes atheism a religion.
Upholding freedom of association and economic liberty would have been so much simpler.
O how much we fail to plan
When down the road we kick the can
Freedom of association and economic liberty are anathema in the "progressive" religion. "Progressives'" reaction to these things is comparable to the way a religious Jew or Muslim reacts to the prospect of eating pork.
Hatred of independent thought and action is the hallmark of statists everywhere.
Hoi polloi progressives. The ones in power know it is feel good smoke and mirrors to authorize getting in charge so they can use that to get in the way if things. Then stuff happens, their investment genius spouses' fortunes skyrocket, people facetiously find nothing wrong, and they get a little bit back out of the way.
You’re correct, the right to discriminate and segregate (what you call “freedom of association” and “economic Liberty”) are not part of the “progressive religion.” Or the Christian religion for that matter.
You don't understand "economic liberty" at all, and "freedom of association" only a little better, if that sound bite is your best rejoinder.
People discriminate every single day. You discriminate in who you party with, who you work for, who you carpool with, who you buy birthday presents for, which church you go to, whose products you buy, what food you eat.
Everybody does.
Since no one has the authority to tell their neighbor how to discriminate, how can they possibly delegate that authority to a government?
Upholding de facto Jim Crow is simple. But it is not liberty.
Yeah, I am not "free" unless I can force my neighbor, who doesn't like me for some reason, to associate with me.
What bullshit!
False. Business concerns are very different from socializing. You have to know that but choose to make absurd claims because you can’t address reality.
litigants are prepared to gerrymander the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA to fit every facet of the progressive agenda.
Sauce for the goose...
Shorter Josh: There are in groups whom the law protects but does not bind, and there are outgroups whom the law binds but does not protect.
The religious right has pursued this 'heads we win, tails you lose' approach -- religious conservatives can discriminate against anyone, but no one can discriminate against religious conservatives -- for decades. Federalist Society judges have acted as matadors with respect to such claims, waving them along, likely never considering principle or practicality (let alone the long term).
The Congregation Of Exalted Reason recognized long ago such a condition could not long survive, especially not in modern America.
"religious conservatives can discriminate against anyone, but no one can discriminate against religious conservatives."
That is absolutely where Title VII jurisprudence is headed. The Court will declare a large religious freedom exception to Title VII in the coming years. But the Court will also use the Title VII protection of religion to control private conduct that they don't like. We've already seen this with the airline vaccine mandate cases in the Fifth Circuit. Three judges, with the ill-informed cheering of Josh Blackman (and the groaning of actual employment lawyers everywhere), have held that burdens on (Christian) religion are such a unique harm that plaintiffs are entitled to preliminary injunctive relief.
Relax. The 'heads we win, tails you lose' standard will not long survive in modern America. Not at a legitimate marketplace of ideas, not in a nation that becomes less religious, less rural, less backward, less bigoted, and less White essentially daily.
As Hunter Thompson observed: "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Similarly, when religion is transformed into an unreasonably powerful sword and shield, everybody will get religion.
The Congregation of Exalted Reason was, not surprising, far ahead of this one.
Yeah, your side is always taking it in the shorts while the other side is always treated like royalty. Because your side believes in liberty and those assholes over there don’t.
It’s a terrible burden that you’re having to bear.
I since this is sarcasm, but this is exactly what Josh is arguing. Progressive religious views don't count for whatever reason so religious freedom protections don't work to their benefit and don't bind conservative actors. But they do protect conservative religious beliefs and all progressive policies must be bound by that protection.
*sense
Yes. It’s because conservative Christians think their faith is the one true religion so they must save everyone else from damnation. Religious liberty to them is the freedom to force everyone to be saved. It’s a pernicious viewpoint with no resolution I can see besides them adopting a live and let live mentality. Which they’ll never do. And which is why we’ll forever have these battles between their church and state.
This guy gets it. This is why giving Josh a soapbox in VC never made sense to me.
Your aspirations with respect to this blog may differ from those of the proprietor.
I sense the person who hires at the Volokh Conspiracy wanted precisely what he gets from Prof. Blackman.
Right. He thinks it's a problem when Catholics follow the Pope's teachings about environmental preservation, but applauds Catholics who defy the Pope on vaccination. The latter are heroes of religious freedom and the former are somehow "gerrymandering." He simultaneously thinks Jews aren't religious enough to warrant RFRA protection at all unless we can prove, with documents and witnesses and cross, that we are ultra-Orthodox. He doesn't even pretend to have a standard other than his preferred results.
It's not so different from the way so many liberties have been shoehorned into freedom of speech, really. When the courts won't take the full range of liberties seriously, you try to pretend the liberty you want is really one of the one or two they actually enforce.
Essentially, the 1st amendment is being turned into a 9th amendment substitute. People attempt this from all perspectives.
Except your take on liberty does not define liberty and rights.
You can argue what it ought to be, but you don’t get to define what it is for everyone, we have institutions for that, and none of them are you.
The issue is double standards. When faith demands conservative things you and Josh call it freedom. When faith demands liberal things you and Josh call it pretend,
Won't the ship of "progressive free exercise clause" interpretation founder on the rocks of history, text and tradition that SCOTUS has written about in many of their decisions?
Not seeing how this ship sails through SCOTUS shoals. 🙂
You believe the conservative free exercise clause different from the progressive one?
Or you don't believe it, but hope the Supreme Court finds distinction after distinction in order to own the libs?
Blackman is, pretty unsubtly, embracing a double standard. He's proven himself one to miss such things in his devotion to his side, but I don't think that's something you should embrace as well.
That's what I came here to say too. If the Republican justices have decided that they get to make sh*t up wrt the establishment clause (and occasionally other parts of the Constitution), then why shouldn't applicants before the Court play along with that approach?
1A meet 14A
14A meet 1A
“Hey, no fair! The RFRA is *OUR* scam! You guys are abusing it…”
RFRA was passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by a Democratic president, yet it's a conservative scam? Weird.
In reality, RFRA had wide bi-partisan support. Then-Congressman (now-Senator) Chuck Schumer, introduced it in the House, while Ted Kennedy did so in the Senate. It passed with near unanimity in both houses of Congress.
Yes, and it’s not weird at all.
It's only wierd if you think the proper role of government is to punch religion in the nuts because the choir likes to see you go out of your way to do so.
That falls on deaf ears in general elections. Few want government used that way.
Religious people figure they are getting punched in the nuts if they do not benefit from endless, special privilege.
This may be because they are gullible enough to fall for just about anything.
"RFRA was passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by a Democratic president..."
In response to a conservative SCOTUS decision that removed 1A based protections put there by a more liberal court.
It’s almost as though it is not 1990 anymore.
"The brief, authored in part by Kathleen Sullivan, argues that the Free Exercise Clause supports a religious liberty claim to consider race in admissions."
That claim is not relevant to the cases at hand. Harvard is not claiming a religious motive and as a public school UNC can not claim a religious motive. If Bob Jones University wants to limit admission to people who look like Jesus it can make that argument in its own case.
If Bob Jones University wants to limit admission to people who look like Jesus it can make that argument in its own case.
How are they going to know what Jesus looked like?
Everybody knows that the Jewish people of the Levant under Roman rule were tall with pale skin, long blond hair, and blue eyes.
Nah, I'm pretty sure they were short and swarthy. I do laugh a bit when I see Christian artwork that makes Jesus look like he was from Northern Europe.
I am pretty sure Mr. Carr was kidding, but his broader point is correct.
If religious freedom allows one to discriminate against whites, then it must allow one to discriminate against blacks. IIRC, the Bob Jones Univ. case rejected the second prong of that argument, but unless you reverse Bob Jones Univ., I don't see how the first prong could succeed.
"When Justice Kennedy reigned supreme, advocates on both sides had to frame arguments to appear to the swing vote's proclivities."
At first. I thought "appear" was a typo. on further consideration...
" But less than two years after Justice Ginsburg's death, litigants are prepared to gerrymander the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA to fit every facet of the progressive agenda. "
Does South Texas College Of Law Houston teach that general applicability of law constitutes gerrymandering?
Orthogonal observations are grand. You would end up with these salamander-like tortuous paths to capture a thousand and one little items.
For the life of me, I don't understand why progressives don't see where this religion argument goes. If abortion is a "free exercise" of your religion, then you have to be open to the claim that the state will accuse you of trying to perform human sacrifice as a part of your religion. I don't see that getting five votes, but it DOES immediately open up the question of whether the child is in fact a human life that falls within the 14th Amendment protection of "life."
Remember, they don't think the conservatives on the Court are actually engaged in reasoning or following principles, they're just handing the right wins and engaging in hand waving to do it. So, why shouldn't they try to get a win by just hand waving, and ignore where the reasoning leads?
Exactly. Nobody is expecting the Republican majority on the court to behave according to consistent principles.
Actually, I think most of the justices, perhaps all of them, have fairly consistent principles. It's just that they more or less all have different principles from each other.
And when you aggregate that in a majority vote, it ends up looking kind of random and ad hoc. But if you look at any given justice, you can largely predict in advance where they'll fall on any given issue.
The equivocation lies in what constitutes "principles". For example, Alito has a claimed adherence to textualism but he also consistently supports the police - so which is his real principle? (I note that you cannot honestly be a textualist while supporting the use of John Doe warrants, which are as an extreme a violation of 4A as it is possible to conceive of.)
Yeah, I think they all have consistent individual principles. I'm not so sure I'd say they're all honest about WHAT those principles are.
I expect them to behave according to consistent principles, but not those they proclaim.
Brett's description of my attitude is pretty accurate, though for Roberts and maybe one or two others it's "Republicans win," while for Alito and Thomas, at least, it's "The right wins."
I think it's perfectly natural that the right would usually, but hardly always, win, under an originalist reading of the Constitution. They're 'conservatives', it's the left that's continually pushing the limits. The right is generally just doing the same stuff as before.
When you have a Constitution that was deliberately written to limit government reach, and put all sorts of obstacles in the way of legal change, of course it's going to be the party of change that runs into the most problems.
Mind you, if the Court ever became consistent in its originalism, a lot of laws conservatives tend to like, like federal drug laws, would fall. But just as a general matter, the party that's trying to do stuff and change things is going to be the one that has more trouble with a constitutional doctrine based in fixity of meaning until amendement.
If abortion is a "free exercise" of your religion, then you have to be open to the claim that the state will accuse you of trying to perform human sacrifice as a part of your religion. I don't see that getting five votes, but it DOES immediately open up the question of whether the child is in fact a human life that falls within the 14th Amendment protection of "life."
That abortion is murder has long been a claim of the anti-abortion movement. I don't think the "abortion is free exercise" affects that.
The brief says:
"The Free Exercise Clause has long protected
religion-based decisions relating to the education of
students. See, e.g., Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205
(1972) (compulsory secondary school attendance of
Amish students against the teachings of their faith
violates the Free Exercise Clause); Pierce v. Soc’y of
the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus & Mary, 268
U.S. 510 (1925) (compulsory public school attendance
violates the Free Exercise Clause, inter alia)."
Pierce never mentions the first amendment or free exercise.
The schools argued "that the enactment conflicts with the right of parents to choose schools where their children will receive appropriate mental and religious training, the right of the child to influence the parents' choice of a school, the right of schools and teachers therein to engage in a useful business or profession, and is accordingly repugnant to the Constitution and void."
Can't wait for the first ?Black? ?woman? PBJ's opinion especially since she unrecused ?herself? from the UNC case.
All Breyer had to do was chop his balls off and declare himself a woman and he couldn’t have stayed on the court…his balls aren’t even good anymore so I don’t think it was asking too much.
"Catholic values and teachings inform their commitment to give value to the identity of the whole person in admissions and to compose a student body that will, after graduation, promote the Catholic mission of the common good and service to others"
This has to be one of the most spurious claims ever to support racial discrimination by a secular university.
I'd say that the amici ae sinning by falsifying Catholic teaching in a lie.
Look everyone, the Pope showed up!! Pope Don Nico!
Tu sei un propio stronzo, SC.
Da sempre e per sempre.
I’m no Catholic but do you get to police others take on the faith like that? Isn’t that above your pay grade?
Wherein Blackman advances the "why then, the case is altered" argument.
I worry that these claims will irreparably set back the religious liberty movement.
He means,
I worry that these claims will irreparably set back the religious liberty for conservative Christians only movement.
Yes. It is a naked effort to gain government power to impose conserve Christianity on everyone else. The free exercise claim is as much a farce as Republicans’ election integrity proposals.
I expect we’ll also start to see a free exercise claim that the government favors conservative Christianity because of the public interest in saving our souls from damnation. Then there’ll be the interest in teachers and coaches leading prayers for students to save their souls. Then bans on practicing other religions in school like saying prayers to Allah because, you know, the public interest in saving their souls. And because the teachers and coaches have a right to freely exercise their religion.
Abortion's not going to go anywhere with religious liberty, because the answer the is the same as somebody claiming a religious compulsion to commit human sacrifice. Compelling state interest & least restrictive means satisfies that no problem.
I would tend to agree that religious liberty protects discrimination by private individuals, and I would see that generally as a good development toward getting government out of relationships between people.
Unfortunately, the textualists have nowhere to go wrt human sacrifice, as the free exercise clause is utterly clear and unambiguous - more so than 2A. But then, no-one is truly a textualist where the outcome would be inconsistent with their feelz.
Dobbs allows the possibility. It held that abortion is generally a rational basis wuestion and that the state’s interest in prohibiting abortion is rational. Dobbs never said the state has a compelling or even a heightened interest in prohibiting pre-viability abortions. So far as Dobb’s is concerned, abortion is analyzed more like zoning ordinances than murder laws. And zoning ordinances often give way to religious liberty claims.
You may think abortion ought to be treated like murder. But Dobbs did not treat it like murder. And that means that the constitution, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, doesn’t. Dobbs made it clear that states do not have to have abortion restrictions at all. They can make abortion completely legal if they want to.
The analogy I use is war. The fact of the matter is the constitution permits unjust wars, it’s up to Congress. Killing enemy soldiers in war, even an unjust war, isn’t considered murder, despite the fact that enemy soldiers are clearly human beings, not just lumps of flesh. And while the Geneva Convention and other laws limit what can be done in war, if Congress really wanted to it could abrogate the Geneva conventions and repeal laws protecting prisoners, non-combatants, etc., just as it can abrogate any other treaty and repeal any other law. It’s up to Congress.
Abortion after Dobbs is in some ways similar. States can impose rules protecting fetuses much as Congress can decide not to go to war at all and inpose rules of humane combat when it does go to war. But just as killing an enemy isn’t inherently murder, an abortion isn’t inherently murder either.
The RFRA has been held to protect _use_ of drugs, but not _sale_ of drugs. Courts could say the same about abortions. You can not be punished for having an abortion if required by your religion, but you can be punished for performing one.
Courts could say the same about abortions. You can not be punished for having an abortion if required by your religion, but you can be punished for performing one.
Which would be uncommonly stupid, much like the DaVita decision.
As long as a college doesn't take a dime in federal money or federally insured student loans they can blacklist all the Irish and Italians and Greeks to admit as many African Americans, trannies and any other minority they wish to admit to assuage their conscience. Seriously...colleges are on their way out as they should be. After we defeated communism, it fled to academia where it festered, rebranded as DIE and this cultural marxism has taken over pretty much govt, media, and HR departments...but eventually the kids who pay the colleges are going to dry up. Graduating with $100K in debt and a bullshit degree will ensure the end of woke colleges. Unless your teaching engineering, business or computer science and maybe real science (physics and chemistry) you deserve to go out of business...
Education-disdaining right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war losers.
Open wider, Bill.
(Your lack of familiarity with standard English inclines me to believe you attended a conservative-controlled school or two.)
There's so much foolishness spoken and written on this issue. Religious freedom under the Free Exercise/Establishment Clause has never meant that if you are an orthodox Aztec you can engage in human sacrifice.
But there is no textual basis to hold that it excludes such cases. On the contrary, the text is clear that you can engage in human sacrifice for religious purposes. There is no escaping the wording...if you claim to be a textualist.
Of course, in practice many people are "textualists, but..."
Nonsense. If we're being actual textualists, a ban on Congress making a law does not, in any way, ban the states from making a law. States are perfectly free by the text of the Constitution to establish religions, limit the free exercise thereof, etc.
The only problem here happens when non-textualists take the vague provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment and declare it somehow directly incorporates the language of limitations on Congress against the states. No actual textualist would look at either "privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States" or "due process of law" and invent a prohibition on states making laws limiting the free exercise of religion.
Now, that does mean, strictly, the free exercise of religion cannot be restricted in the District of Columbia, and places purchased by the Federal Government (with the consent of the state legislature) for the construction of military facilities, since those are places where Congress exercises exclusive legislative power.
For the latter, the easy thing is to ban people who aren't members of the military from them, and discharge from the military anyone who does anything disruptive to good military order.
For the former, we just have to make peace with the fact that anyone living in DC can be legally murdered for religious reasons by anyone at any time, and see if we can organize religiously-motivated vigilantes to control the religiously-motivated human sacrificers.
The only problem here happens when non-textualists take the vague provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment and declare it somehow directly incorporates the language of limitations on Congress against the states.
When the text is vague, one often turns to the discussion while drafting. Incorporation was absolutely discussed as the intended result.
The basic problem with the atgument that the Free Exercise Clause permits religious institutions to consider race is Bob Jones. Bob Jones appears to stand for the proposition that there is no Free Exercise right to engage in conduct the Court considers racially discriminatory.
Kansas voters resoundingly voted to preserve reproductive freedom for women, rejecting a constitutional amendment to remove abortion rights from the state constitution. Sanity still prevails outside Josh's world of religious tyranny.
Hoisted by my own petard? No thank you! I'd much rather not be!
But fret not, Josh, this court will doubtless make sure that litigants follow the true spirit of religious liberty, which is, of course, when multi-billion dollar corporations want to take away benefits from their cashiers who make $11 an hour.
I think that a majority of the court won’t allow religious exemptions to abortion laws. I think there will be a split opinion on the rationale:
1. One faction will say Smith remains good law and abortion laws are laws of general appicability under Smith. This faction will distance itself from the position that if you make any exceptions, you also have to except religion.
2. Another faction will say astates have a compelling interest in restricting abortions and hence Free Exercise rights are overridden.
It will be interesting to see if any of the court’s liberals, who generally support an expansive interpretation of Smith, side with the first faction. There might be.
"This faction will distance itself from the position that if you make any exceptions, you also have to except religion."
I thought the position was more, "If you permit an exercise of discretion, it ceases to be a law of general applicability."
The seminal case on the doctrine, authored by Alito when he was a 3rd Circuit judge, was Fraternal Order of Police v City of Newark.
Newark had a rule requiring police officers to shave, but allowed a medical exception. A Muslim police officer sued (the Fraternal Ordero f Police sued on his behalf) claiming a religious exemption for wearing a beard. Alito’s opinion held that since the City permitted medical exceptions, the rule wasn’t really of general application, so the City had to permit religious exeptions too.
Abortion frankly fits quite neatly into this framework. Abortion restrictions generally permit medical exceptions. So under Police v. Newark, they need to permit religious exceptions too.
My view is that Police v. Newark, which I’ve called “strong Alito,” reached the right outcome for the wrong reasons. Under what I think is the more correct approach, exceptions simply take you back to pre-Smith doctrine, they do not establish a right to religious exemptions. And under pre-Smith doctrine, civilian police simply do not get the virtually free ride that the military does, and the state simply doesn’t have a compelling interest in their all being shaved. (Alternatively, the state had a compelling basis for medical exemptions). Since the Muslim police officer would win under pre-Smith law, he wins here.
But Alito didn’t rule that way. He interpreted things in a very strong way - pretty much if you exempt anything, particularly if you givr medical exemptions, you have to exempt religion too. I think that under his interpretation, the my-religion-requires-me-to-have-an-abortion people win.
That’s why I think that there will be a faction that will distance itself from the “strong Alito” interpretation of Smith. I think they will say that the existence of exemptions does not mean religion automatically gets one too with no further inquiry. Whether or not they find the state has a compelling interest in abortion, I suspect they will find it has a compelling interest in giving medical exemptions.
police v Newark is:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-3rd-circuit/1022700.html
You're overreading the decision. It's not "if you exempt anything." It's only if you exempt things unrelated to the purpose of the rule. Thus, Alito noted that Newark's exemption to the rule for undercover cops did not make their rule one not of general applicability, and would not trigger any 1A right.
So medical exemptions to medical rules would likely not by themselves be problematic.
Clarifying that the discretion issue, from Fulton, is distinct from the Police v. Newark doctrine, which is much stronger and broader. In Fulyon, entire court signed on to the idea that you can’t give government officials unfettered discretion to decide whether or not to give religious exemptions.
But Police v. Newark wasn’t remotely like Fulton. It didn’t involve unfettered discretion. It involved a specific medical exemption.
So I think Alito’s past views have created petards that make it legitimate for his opponents to attempt to hoist him on.
The full court has never accepted the full “strong Alito” doctrine of Police v. Newark. My prediction is they won’t.
That sounds about right. I don't think specific medical exemptions really qualify as discretionary, and it's the exercise of discretion that requires the religious exemption, by establishing that the rule isn't really generally applicable.
"I expect a third category to be environmentalism. Groups will argue they have a religious liberty interest in pristine nature, clean air, endangered species, etc."
You know Prof. Blackman, YOU don't get to say what is a religion (and what isn't).
Even religions (at least in the US), don't get to say what a religion is.
So when a Satanist, Pastafarian, or a Jew for abortion says their religion requires XYZ then YOU will accept that.
On environmentalism, I don’t think it’s a valid use of even strong religious-exemption doctrines of the Police v. Newark sort.
Religious liberty, throughout its history and through all the changing doctrines applied to it, has generally only meant that you can force government not to require something of you. It has permitted you to force it to give you something only under very limited circumstances, like prisons, where the government has an unusual amount of control over you.
So you simply can’t use religious liberty to force government to do something general. The fact that your religion requires a prestine environment might give you an exemption from government laws thet require you to do something you regard as polluting. It might apply to preventing government from destroying land you have a religious connection with, such as native American sacred sites. But it doesn’t, under any of the doctrines that have been promulgated, permit you to force government to clean things up for you.
Further, I would think that sincerity rules and evidentiary rules would apply if people suddenly start deciding that the site of some planned development is a sacred site for them. Native American sacred sites generally have a long history that can be established by evidence.
As I’ve written before, I think you need evidence of existing belief not triggered by opposition to a proposed government action. I understand this tends to favor established religions over new ones, but all evidentiary requirements tend to favor people with well-established bodies of evidence over people without them.
And although it seems to be a surprise to many Conspiracy people, for at least a substantial number of people (Jewish claimants in particular) I think the sincerity and evidentiary hurdles are going to pretty easy to overcome. Religious positions that say abortion is required (not merely permitted but required) under certain circumstances have been around for a while and are fairly well established in the religious literature. This religious literature is quite outside the experience of most conspirators, who seem to be very surprised by it and respond by saying it can’t possibly be genuine. But it is genuine, and it’s been around for a while. And that makes establishing sincerity (i.e. view is a legitimate, sincere religious one and not simply feigned in response to government action) straightforward even under tighter evidentiary rules for sincerity than are now in use.
You're aware of Lyng v. Northwest Indian Cemetery Protective Association, right?
Big picture history of the Free Exercise Clause:
* The mid-century liberal court was indulgent of Free Exercise claims.
* Conservatives thought the indulgence went too far, and rolled back Free Exercise in cases involving out-of-the-mainstream religious practices: refusal to take a Social Security card (Bowen), preservation of a Native cemetery (Lyng), and drug use (Smith). If Roe hadn't been on the books, there would have been a case telling us that there's no Free Exercise right to abortion.
* Conservatives were then shocked that their new precedent was faithfully applied in the lower courts to rule against their favorite religion.
* Now that there's a stronger conservative majority, they're openly struggling to figure out what ought to replace Smith. They know what results they want, but it's actually kinda hard to ban religious peyote use while allowing a school employee to make a spectacle of his prayers on a public school football field. I suspect we'll get a lot more of "we'll just deny cert for the Muslim convict and then grant cert for the Christian one next term" style of practice.
"deny cert for the Muslim convict"
https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1459/holt-v-hobbs
(Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, an attempt by Congress to enforce the 1st Amendment)
https://apnews.com/article/north-america-ap-top-news-courts-supreme-courts-politics-d317bc165ab24eacb73b6e63e6eeb070
Domineque Ray is the Muslim convict whose execution went forward, while the Court took a different convict's similar claim soon after.
It's not that the Court will *never* take a Muslim's claim -- it's just that they'll tend to find ways to be solicitous of favored religions' practices while they tend to blow off the likes of Domineque Ray, Alfred Smith, Stephen Roy and the Northwest Indian Cemetery Protective Association.
When conservatives were arguing free exercise exemptions to vaccine mandates (of individuals who never had a problem with vaccines in the past), that was perfectly fine. But liberal groups doing it is "gerrymandering the free exercise clause"? How does that follow - beyond that it isn't going in a direction you like?
Anyway, considering the Supreme Court denied a stay of execution that claimed a RFLUA exemption to have an imam with them but granted the stay of execution when an individual wanted a pastor with them, it feels like your concerns may be overblown. But, even if they aren't, why shouldn't sincere religious beliefs that support progressive ideas be supported under RFRA?
So, who wants to write the press releases for Students for Fair Admissions, for release to English-language newspapers throughout Asia, that 57 prominent American Catholic colleges and universities have declared before the US Supreme Court that discrimination against Asians is a part of the Catholic faith?
That depends - if you divide up the data, is the discrimination aimed at Americans of Asian descent, or does it include Asian-Asians?
If the discrimination is against Asian Americans only, then foreign governments should butt out.
Um, he didn't say anything about foreign governments.
You want religious liberty Professor Blackman? You got it. So stop being a hypocrite and accept it for all cases, not just the ones that fit your right-wing philosophy.
Theoretically the Pope has ultimate authority in the church, if he declares he's speaking ex cathedra. (Last time that happened was 1950.) OTOH, he has a limited stock of moral authority to get away with using that theoretical power, and frankly, Francis has less moral authority than most. I think John Paul II was probably the last pope who could have gotten away with anything particularly controversial on the basis of pure moral authority, he was VERY widely respected.
Francis won't invoke that power because it would be really embarrassing to see the majority of the church schism away leaving behind a rump church headed by him.
A lot of assumptions there, chief.
I believe in the law of gravity, the laws of heat, and the laws of motion because I can see them for myself. Every time I cook breakfast I demonstrate the laws of heat. Every time I drop something it falls to the floor.
That's a little different than assuming that God, if she exists, is thinking anything. For one thing, the very existence of God assumes facts not in evidence. (I read a shelf of books on Christian apologetics and have yet to encounter a coherent argument for the existence of God.) Anything that does exist, including the universe, has discoverable properties; it's impossible to exist with no properties at all. And if you then ask "Why this specific property" the answer is that if it had a different property you'd then be asking why that one.
Francis has less moral authority than most among American right wing Catholics.
Same, but reversed for JP2 who dipped his toes into the Cold War. Americans love him, but we are not the Catholic world.
So much for religious liberty.
All right, what exactly would "nothing" look like? If you spend a few minutes actually think that question through, you realize that "nothing" is literally impossible. Something is going to exist. And its existence is going to be governed by the laws of physics. Which takes us back to my earlier comment that if the universe looked different than it currently does, you would then be asking why does it look like that. Grass is green because that's how it evolved to do well in conditions that exist on earth; in some parallel universe in which photosynthesis happens using blue chemicals rather than green ones, it would be blue for the same reason.
None of these attempts at using complexity as an argument for God's existence ultimately stand up to scrutiny. And one of the arguments against God's existence is that the more science learns, the fewer and fewer things there are that can't be explained by natural processes. Even the argument that the processes themselves are too complex to have evolved on their own misses the basic point that in any universe, there will be physical laws; it's impossible to have a place without natural processes. If we didn't have the ones we have, you'd then be asking why we have different ones instead.
Why does the creator want it so?
Francis’s social teaching basically boils down to “don’t be a dick,” and that upsets the American right greatly. I mean Brett, is saying the pope lacks moral authority over him because he’s being told to be a better person and he won’t have that.
If nothing is impossible, what happens to you, the conscious you, when you die?
If you take a box that is made of boards and nails, and pull out the nails, the box no longer exists. You now have boards and nails, but no box.
Once I die, the electrical impulses that make up my conscious self cease to fire and the conscious me no longer exists.
And BCD, here's an interesting thought experiment for those who believe God will raise us from the dead:
Take a random carbon atom found in one of my fingers. I acquired that carbon atom from a cow when I ate a hamburger. The cow got it by eating some grass; the grass got it by being fertilized when an animal pooped on it, the animal got it from something that it ate, and so on and so on and so on. Every one of the over a trillion atoms in your body has belonged to hundreds of other living things over the years. No new matter is being made; the same matter just gets recycled over and over again.
So when resurrection morning arrives, what happens when you've got hundreds of people vying for the same carbon atom? "It's mine; I had it first." "It's mine; I had it last." And over here is a nitrogen atom that lots of other people are claiming ownership to.
One of the problems Christianity has is that large segments of it simply do not survive if one just thinks through their ramifications.
"the grass got it by being fertilized when an animal pooped on it"
Just an FYI, that's not generally how plants get their carbon.
Just as an FYI, that's not always the way plants get carbon, but it's one way. The feces are absorbed into the soil and the resulting nutrients are taken up by the roots. Otherwise farmers wouldn't bother putting down fertilizer.
That having been resolved, do you have a response to my main point, or is this just another of your distractions?
So the conscious you becomes nothing.
Which you also say is impossible.
When did I say that was impossible?
No Krychek....
Plants don't get their carbon from fertilizer. They get it from the carbon dioxide in the air. Farmers don't fertilize their crops to give the plants more carbon. They fertilize their crops to get them more nitrogen, phosphorus, and other trace minerals.
You say these things which such certainty. Once, may have been an honest mistake. Whoops. We all make them. Then you double down...
Armchair Lawyer, we have this pattern in which I'll make a central point, you'll find some tangential nit to pick that has nothing to do with my point, and we then go off on a discussion about that rather than what I was centrally talking about. If you have something to say about my main point, fine; otherwise your distractions are nothing but annoying.
That said, I did not say that plants get carbon from fertilizer. I said they get nutrients from the soil, and used putting down fertilizer as an example. And plants do in fact get nutrients from the soil, including some carbon from animal feces. So, if you're going to take us off on a tangent, please at least quote me accurately.
When I came to the comment section, I wasn't expecting to find an argument in favor of religious discrimination, much less one endorsed by fifteen members of Congress. At issue is a State Department solicitation of grant proposals to promote religious freedom. You can read the full thing (link at end), but the key paragraph is:
The letter by Jim Banks and fourteen other members of Congress graciously concedes that it is OK for the State Department not to engage in religious discrimination, but for it to try to stop others from engaging in religious discrimination is a bridge too far: “It is one thing for the Department to be tolerant and respectful of a wide range of belief systems.... It is quite another for the United States government to work actively to empower atheists, humanists, non-practicing, and non-affiliated in public decision-making.”
https://www.state.gov/statements-of-interest-requests-for-proposals-and-notices-of-funding-opportunity/drl-fy20-irf-promoting-and-defending-religious-freedom-inclusive-of-atheist-humanist-non-practicing-and-non-affiliated-individuals/