The Volokh Conspiracy
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Should the Law Limit Private-Employer-Imposed Speech Restrictions?
The Constitution limits the government's—including government employers'—power to discriminate based on race, sex, or religion. A federal statute and statutes in nearly all states applies these norms to private employers as well. Many libertarians disapprove of any such restrictions on private employers; but for nearly 60 years, American law has imposed such restrictions.
The Constitution also limits the government's—including government employers'—power to restrict people's speech and political activity. And statutes in many states apply this norm, to some extent, to private employers as well. Indeed, a few of them have done this for 150 years (and even longer as to employers' discrimination against employees based on how the employees voted).
Ten years ago, I wrote a descriptive and analytical law review article called Private Employees' Speech and Political Activity: Statutory Protection Against Employer Retaliation, which aimed to catalog these often-little-known statutes. This year, I'm returning to the subject, trying to analyze the strongest arguments for and against such statutes. The article (Should the Law Limit Private-Employer-Imposed Speech Restrictions?) will be published later this year in a Journal of Free Speech Law symposium issue, together with other articles that stemmed from an Arizona State symposium on Non-Governmental Restrictions on Free Speech; and this week and next I'd like to serialize it here.
Let me begin with the Introduction and the beginning of the argument in favor of such statutes, though you can read the entire article in PDF if you'd like; future posts will also of course cover the arguments against such statutes.
[* * *]
About half of Americans live in jurisdictions that protect some private employee speech or political activity from employer retaliation.[1] Of course, that means about half don't. Which jurisdictions are correct? And, if private employers should generally be barred from firing, disciplining, or perhaps even declining to hire workers based on their speech, which sorts of speech should be protected?
Existing private employee speech protection statutes
(the darker the shading, the more protection)
I. Arguments for Protecting Private Speech
A. Democratic Self-Government
To begin with, the threat of losing one's job is a powerful deterrent to most speakers. If the ability to speak freely, and without distortion by the threat of governmental punishment—or even the threat of loss of government benefits—is a necessary precondition of democratic self-government,[2] then legislatures ought to be concerned about the democratic process being distorted by private employers as well.
This is likely why nearly all states forbid discrimination based on how a person has voted:[3] Private economic power ought not be used to interfere, through threat of coercion of employees, with the political process. But American law has long recognized that for voting to be meaningful, the public also needs to freely discuss candidates and issues before voting on them,[4] and to speak out in ways that influence representatives between elections. This suggests that private employer sanctions against employee free speech interfere with democratic self-government almost as much as sanctions based on voting.
And this deterrent effect of restrictions imposed by private employers is likely far greater than with many other private restrictions. If a shopping mall expels leafleters, the leafleters likely could easily find other places, or switch to other media (such as the Internet). If a newspaper refuses to publish some articles (as it has the First Amendment right to do[5]), the speakers might find it harder to reach the same audience, but they won't be frightened into not expressing that view at all. The threat of the loss of one's livelihood is a far more powerful deterrent than mere ejection from a mall or rejection by a publisher.[6]
To be sure, if you're being threatened with jail for your speech, all you can do to avoid jail is shut up. If you're being threatened with being fired, you can find a new job. But new jobs are often not easy to come by. That's particularly true in times of economic difficulty and unemployment (when people might be especially interested in critiquing the existing order). It may also be true when your work skills are useful to only a limited set of employers, especially in your geographical area. Even if you can get a new job, that may mean sacrificing part of your retirement benefits and other benefits related to seniority. And of course finding a new job takes time, time during which you might be unable to keep up on your house payments, your rent, your car payments, and the like. Far safer just to remain quiet.
Moreover, in times of political tension, certain kinds of speech may lead to pressure on many employers (or at least many in an employee's professional field) to forbid the speech, especially by employees who enjoy some public prominence: Consider Communist speech and even some non-Communist left-wing speech in the 1950s, or allegedly racist or sexist or antigay speech today. And the growth of social media has made public pressure campaigns especially easy. An employee who is contemplating making a controversial political statement might thus worry not just about being fired by his current employer, but also about not being hired by future prospective employers. In the words of the Restatement of Employment Law, which urges private employee speech protections as a common-law matter, "There is a public interest in employees' personal autonomy because it is critical to engagement in civic life. Employees must be free to express their own ideas and concerns in order for the public sphere to flourish."[7]
Now maybe despite that, private employees should have no right to continue drawing a paycheck after they have said something that damages their employer's business (whether because it criticizes the employer, creates tension with coworkers, alienates customers, or otherwise draws public hostility to the employer). I'll discuss that a bit more below. But for now, my point is simply that, from society's perspective, if we value free speech as a tool for democratic self-government, we should recognize that the threat of private employer retaliation does interfere with such self-government.
[1] This article is a normative follow-up to the more descriptive and taxonomic Eugene Volokh, Private Employees' Speech and Political Activity: Statutory Protection Against Employer Retaliation, 16 Tex. Rev. L. & Pol. 295 (2012). To the list of statutes in that article should be added Utah Code § 34A-5-112 (Westlaw current through 2022 Spec. Sess.) (protecting a broad range of speech); Ann Arbor (Mich.). Code of Ordinances §§ 9:151, :154 (2022) (likewise); Ft. Lauderdale (Fla.) Code of Ordinances §§ 29-1, -12(1)(c) (2022) (protecting "political affiliation"); Lansing (Mich.) Code of Ordinances §§ 297.02, .03 (2022) (protecting "political affiliation or belief," without detailed definition); Wayne County (Mich.) Ordinance No. 2020-586 (Oct. 1, 2020) ("political affiliation"); Harford County (Md.) Code of Ordinances §§ 95-3, -5 (2022), https://ecode360.com/HA0904 ("political opinion," defined as "The opinion of persons relating to government or the conduct of government or related to political parties authorized to participate in primary elections in the state"); Prince George's County (Md.) Code of Ordinances §§ 2-186(a)(6), (23), -222 (2022) (likewise); Howard County (Md.) Code of Ordinances § 12.208 (2022), https://library.municode.com/md/howard_county/codes/code_of_ordinances ("political opinion"); Shreveport (La.) Code of Ordinances §§ 39-1, -2 (2022), https://library.municode.com/la/shreveport/codes/code_of_ordinances ("political … affiliations"); Miami Beach (Fla.) Code of Ordinances § 62-31, -86 (2022) ("political affiliation," defined to cover support or opposition of organizations that support or oppose candidates or that lobby legislators).
[2] See Robert Post, Participatory Democracy and Free Speech, 97 Va. L. Rev. 477 (2011); James Weinstein, Participatory Democracy as the Central Value of American Free Speech Doctrine, 97 Va. L. Rev. 491 (2011). My argument here applies whether one thinks democratic self-government is important because it is a means for society to democratically deliberate, or as a means for each citizen to be able to participate freely and equally in the democratic process.
[3] See Volokh, supra note *, at 336. These laws were first enacted in a time when voting was public, see Burson v. Freeman, 504 U.S. 191, 202–04 (1992) (plurality opin.) (reporting that the secret ballot was mostly adopted in the U.S. in 1888–96); Volokh, supra note *, at 299–300 (discussing early bans on employment discrimination in voting, in 1839–81), but they continue to be relevant even with the secret ballot: Sometimes employees will mention how they voted, or might tell the truth when asked how they voted.
[4] See, e.g., New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 269–70 (1964).
[5] Miami Herald Pub. Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241 (1974).
[6] The same argument would apply to Vince Blasi's "pathological perspective" theory of the First Amendment: If we want free speech law that protects against periods in which "certain dynamics"—whether national or local—"radically increase the likelihood that people who hold unorthodox views will be punished for what they say or believe," Vincent A. Blasi, The Pathological Perspective and the First Amendment, 85 Colum. L. Rev. 449, 450 (1985), we would likely want to protect against the prospect that such dynamics would promote private employer repression of speech and not just government repression.
[7] Restatement of Employment Law § 7.08 Rep. Notes; id. § 7.08(a)(2) (concluding that employers should be liable for firing an employee for "adhering to political, moral, ethical, religious, or other personal beliefs or expressing such beliefs outside of the locations, hours, and responsibilities of employment in a manner that does not refer to or otherwise involve the employer or its business," unless the employer "can prove that it had a reasonable and good-faith belief that the employee's exercise of an autonomy interest interfered with the employer's legitimate business interests, including its orderly operations and reputation in the marketplace").
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As a practical matter, prohibitions against government attacks on speech protects unpopular speech (governments usually being unwilling to attack popular speech); but prohibitions against private-sector attacks on speech protects popular speech — since it requires positive action by the government.
This is the experience of California, where an employer who harms, or is accused of harming, an employee for popular speech (popular with the government of course) will face official retaliation, but when the employee’s speech is less popular, the government can remain inactive.
Look at James Damore. He wrote a memo giving his opinion about the causes of the extreme gender disparity in the company’s most technical roles (3% of their programmers were women). His opinion was, to summarize, fewer women were interested in, or good at, programmer. He suffered extreme harassment and was ultimately fired for having written the memo. The California government did nothing; the Federal government did nothing. His speech was not popular with them.
Malvolio comment - "Look at James Damore. He wrote a memo giving his opinion about the causes of the extreme gender disparity in the company’s most technical roles (3% of their programmers were women). His opinion was, to summarize, fewer women were interested in, or good at, programmer. He suffered extreme harassment and was ultimately fired for having written the memo. "
He got fired for stating facts.
A good point is that you cant solve problems if you dont understand the cause of the problem. Case in point, african americans as a rule have lower achievements in school, lower wages, lesser health outcomes, etc than whites. The woke trend to blame the lesser outcomes on racism/white supremacy will lead to solutions that will make the problem worse (along with making race relations worse in this country), while never addressing the core causes.
Just like James Damore, In today's environment, trying to address the core causes of the problem will not be politically correct
In current America, most Americans under 50, or perhaps even 60, don't "own" much of anything of substance. Even what is considered "personal property" is often financed by unsecured debt. They're paying off a mortgage or renting a shelter. They're leasing, or paying off a car (or two), and if particularly foolish and short sighted, they're paying on two vehicles (one a ridiculously expensive pickup truck) plus a boat and/or a several thousand dollar "all-terrain vehicle". Statistics I've read indicate that most people have limited "emergency" funds, and are three lost paychecks away from insolvency.
So if one loses one's job, and especially is "black-listed" for thinking or speaking wrongly, he is at risk for losing essentially everything. (If you are paying off on installments anything which was purchased by "secured indebtedness" you will lose it to repossession if you can't make the final payment. (The exception which "proves the rule" is the protection from eviction that non-paying renters have in some places.)
H.R. people don't understand - or mostly choose not to understand - this reality. They're just doing their job as they process your papers and walk you out the door for having "spoken improvidently". The are not involved. They will continue not to understand the realities that they deal with until they, against their will, become involved and perceive they have some skin in the game to lose.
re: James Damore
I feel bad for Mr. Damore. It's ridiculous that Google fired him. But I wouldn't change the law to "protect" him; see my comment below.
If discrimination on political speech is forbidden, why are employees of the California State University system over 90% Democrat? A mere hint of being a conservative is sufficient to eliminate the chance of hire or promotion.
Sorry thumbs, didn't mean to flag
If that’s true, and not just paranoia and overblowing the usual academic backbiting, then you would think we would see a lawsuit based in those facts. It’s not like conservatives are shy about suing!
Can you explain any profession where 90%+ of all employees belonging to one specific criteria that would not be due to discrimination?
Because you need to establish causality.
A lawsuit based on what exactly?
Discrimination based on "liberal" or "conservative" beliefs is entirely legal.
Jesus Christ.
Read the OP.
Not in California.
"A mere hint of being a conservative is sufficient to eliminate the chance of hire or promotion."
Yup. UC Berkeley's Life Sciences department eliminated three-quarters of the candidates in one search based on diversity statements alone.
That has become a frequent practice.
I don’t think seeing the benefit of a diverse workforce is a particularly partisan point of view.
Sure some in the right try and pretend that conservativism means being against multiculturalism but that tends to be white supremecists laundering their ideology when you inquire deeper.
Diversity statements are why I left academics. I can’t stomach writing one.
I’ve seen one good argument for diversity. The rest is Marxist nonsense.
Conservative ideology has become more and more extreme in its hatred of and hostility towards universities over several decades - why would conservatives work in a place that most conservatives claim to despise? it's kind of a self-explanatory situation.
The government should not interfere in the employer / employee relationship in any way.
I'd repeal all minimum wage laws.
I'd let a private employer discriminate to his heart's content (including political discrimination). I'd also let him dictate what his employees can and can't say, on or off the clock. Don't like it? Go look for another job! You don't have a "right" to work for me if I don't want you to (regardless of my reasons).
The market is the best teacher. African immigrants outperformed whites in the 2010 Census. If you want to discriminated by color, then miss out on top performers who are loyal, mannerly, and not entitled.
There’s always the libertarian paradise, where everything is owned by a few owners, let’s at one giant private corporation. Everybody wxcept the owners is given a deal whereby you either accept, freely and of your own free will, having a microchip emplanted which tells you exactly what to say and do every moment of your life, and you say and do it, or you get kicked off the corporation’s private property into one of the 6x6 foot public squares, the door is locked behind you and the bars lowered, and you are completely free to do whatever you want until you starve to death.
Of course libertarians and their lawyers would point out that the bars are there only to keep you out of others’ private property, not in; a public square is radically different from a prison cell, and it’s merely coincidence thst the two look identical; and starvation that comes from a completely free personal choice not to gainfully support oneself is radically different from starvation imposed as punishment for violating some sort of government rules.
But I suspect very few people other than libertarians and their lawyers (i.e. the property owners) would think themselves free in such a society. Nor would they think that the much-touted legal distinction between what their society calls a public square and what other societies call a prison cell makes any practical difference to their lives.
Impressive. You built a whole strawman society to tear down.
I'm not at all sure the Ed would be as comfortable in the dog-eat-dog world he advocates. If he would be, he is indeed a tough emm-eff.
My family owns a small retail business, I only dream that racism were a legitimate reason for customer choice. I happen to know that our major competition would be taking advantage of that the next day.
I agree!
"And the growth of social media has made public pressure campaigns especially easy."
We could apply tortious interference with contract to public pressure campaigns related to non-government employees. It would be hard to get $10 out of each of 100,000 Twitter users who piled on. Only the instigators would be worth pursuing under current laws and practices where the social media company has no liability and no billing information. I could imagine the government changing the rules for whatever speech happens to be unpopular with the ruling party. Twitter is liable for hate speech unless it makes a good faith attempt to bill the user for any alleged fines or damages. Who cares if it is unconstitutional? The deadline for challenging the fine expired before the user was notified; we already see this with parking tickets and camera tickets for rental cars.
So what about the Mother of the police officer in Georgia a while back who was fired when she spoke in support of her son, who killed a Black suspect?
In Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court seems to have accepted the idea that at least in the context of a closely held company with a small number of principals, people can regard their company as part of their religious mission and seek to act in it consistent with their religious precepts. And this gives them some rights even if the religious mission has some effects on employees.
My question here is, is speech different from religion in this respect? Does a company like MyPillow get to form a brand that closely associates the company with a particular political message? Does that give the conpany at least some First Mendment rights even if other employees are affected?
Or are the two analytically different. Perhaps government is relatively free to impose time, place, and manner restrictions that limit employers’ ability to insist that employees behave consistently with the brand, but is less free to impose time, place, and manner restrictions on religious practice.
In "Hobby Lobby" Scrotus invented the idea that a corporation was a person when it was convenient and was not a person when it would be inconvenient - that "closely held" bullshit.
So you believe that NY Times, Inc. has no First Amendment rights, correct? Government can censor it at will.
"Scrotus invented the idea that a corporation was a person "
They did not invent the ides. It have been common for a very long time.
If you are smelling BS, it could be because of where your head resides
You're not reading it all the way through - Scrotus invented the idea in Burwell that the corporation was both a person and not a person as convenient.
BTW though corporate personhood precedes even the founding of corporate personhood is not part of the Constitution and it is a Scrotus invention that fictitious persons have the same constitutionally recognised rights as natural persons - though no doubt Alito or Thomas would argue that as their rights have traditionally been recognised, it's too late to deny it, stare decisis, don't you know?
corporate personhood precedes even the founding of the US
Rassnfrasn no edit function
Why should people lose their rights just because they organized as a legal entity?
Corporations aren’t sentient beings. Everything a corporation does the the direct product of a human’s decision.
None of those words are true.
I'm relatively sure its been mentioned in the comments already, but just in case here's my IANAL plain unhelpful observation of the day: (no I didn't get through the whole thing)
I think you might be able to get away with private companies
restricting or limiting speech in situations where you could be seen as representing the private company. One of the vice presidents of Great Lakes Higher Ed gave me the idea once because he said he used to swear in extremely awful ways on the golf course until he wanted to change so he wore a baseball/trucker hat with the name of Great Lakes and its symbol on the hat. Said it forced him to think and behave. Eventually. 🙂
My only other opinion is a generality but if companies can be considered people for the sake of donations and political speak, don't try to limit the living people that work for ya.
How about if when you're working for a man, the man, whatever, you STFU and work?
What a quaint thought. Actually earning your paycheck rather than just putting in time.
"This is likely why nearly all states forbid discrimination based on how a person has voted . . . "
I find that hard to believe; as, I suspect, would a certain baker and web designer.
I'm skeptical of laws against discrimination based on political speech, race, gender etc. They don't seem generally very necessary any more. Also they infringe of freedom of association.
However, the issue of whether such laws should exist, is far less important to my mind than the issue of, who decides? Who should get to make that decision over what jurisdiction. It should be a state by state issue. Not a federal government issue or a United Nations issue.
Also, as with many other issues, unfortunately, the underlying framework and assumptions of freedom and markets are being eroded away like a mudslide. Our country becomes more and more crony capitalist by the day. Tyrants use a virus to shut down millions of small businesses while hypocritically allowing big business to stay open, with no possible logical explanation or reasoning. The Federal Reserve creates trillions of dollars to prop up Wall St and big businesses, buying their bonds and their stocks. Excessive regulation creates economies of scale that benefit big business and kills small business. More and more spending flows through the grubby, corrupt hands of government. The power of government to interfere in our daily lives and to pick winners and losers in business grows and grows and becomes more centralized. Meanwhile, the big businesses engage in increasingly anticompetitive behavior, while aligning politically and ideologically with the bureaucratic establishment, getting along quite well and scratching each others' backs in every way. Investment funds with tens of trillions in assets behave like cartels, enforcing ever-evolving ideological "ESG" and using the full weight of their influence politically. When a startup social media platform steps out of line, the providers of internet services and the mobile platform oligopolists act in swift lockstep to kill it. Critics of the regime are silenced to the extent possible, cut off from financial services, their livelihood destroyed, etc.
In short, libertarian ideals that are some times appealing, quickly run aground when it comes to the order of implementation and facing the reality of this environment.
Professor Volokh, please consider conditioning your discussion on one of two premises:
1. An internet dominated by giant, "platforms," which publish pretty much everything without editing it.
2. A publishing regime governed by myriad and diverse inputs from private publishers free to make whatever speech decisions they prefer, and regulated by them with private editing of almost everything which gets published.
Your attempt to engage consideration of the public life of the nation, with an eye to private speech regulation, would be heavily affected if premised on one choice or the other.
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this post is about you. But since Prof. Volokh is expressly discussing employers, it's hard to see why your stupid hobby horse would have anything to do with the discussion.
At the time of the founding, corporations were much more limited in scope and pervasiveness. Corporations were for a set purpose, like building a railroad line. Not the all encompassing, eternal megaliths we have today. It's not surprising that the constitution doesn't say much about corporations and their influence on free speech.
A nit...
This seems inconsistent with the map shown. I can easily count 17 states that are labeled as "no protection" (albeit some have cities or counties that have some protections, but they are not "states"). That's over ⅓ of the states leaving at most ⅔ that have protections including related to how an employee votes. I don't characterize ⅔ or less as "nearly all".
One point I missed seeing discussed is the timing of the imposition of the restrictions.
It's one thing if a job applicant is informed of them when applying, quite another, ISTM, if they are imposed, or discovered, later on.
The nature of at-will employment is that the terms and conditions of one's employment can change after one is hired.
Great point, Rhoid. Good comment, bruh.
Purposeful decisions of exclusion are not the same as the disparate impact of policy.
Denying tenure based on political leanings is one thing. Removing punishment for students who are disruptive because more blacks act up is another.
Surprised you don’t know the difference (not really).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
In the case of schools, they promised the IRS to provide education in return for their privileges. In education, one reviews all aspects of a subject. If you allow only one side to be presented, that is called indoctrination. All woke schools should should be de-exempted. Please, Google Form 13909 and report all woke incidents in schools.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf
Then collect a bounty on Form 211. Reason does not allow two links.
This reporting should apply to all non-profit agencies.
I think in no small part there is a serious cultural crisis in the inner city AA community where education, achievement, and success are very stigmatized. I don't know what the answer is but it has to be addressed.
One of the hardest things to be in America today is to be Black and an aspiring bookworm.
Surely it can't be these Democrat-filled & run educational institutions systemically harming blacks?
Right?
Why should that make any difference with respect to punishing truthful speech?
What is the “core cause” of lower “african american” achievements?
On a macro scale? Inherited traits. 'Race' is agreed by scientists who have studied it, to be more akin to familial traits than speciation. The differences disappear when inbreeding is eliminated.
Racism can certainly affect individual outcomes. But that is not what is being discussed.
I haven't. I'm not sure who you're referring to.
Why are leftists so quick to demonstrate that they are garbage people?
You are confusing government regulation with private reaction. A libertarian would say, a private employer has the right to insist on ideological uniformity of any kind among its employees. But the market, both the labor market and the employer's customers, have the right to react accordingly.
If Employer X's hyper-wokeness causes it to be unable to attract and keep a qualified work force, or if the customers are disgusted and take their business to the competition, that's the market working as it should.
Shorter version: You have the right to go woke. But you take the risk you will then go broke.
Bruh doesn't understand what "often" means in this blog's slug line.
Rhoid, cool denier comment, bruh.
Yeah, Ed. You have to say racism.
Rhoid, Rhoid, Rhoid. Colin is a servant of the Chinese Commie Party. Zero tolerance for traitors.
Rhoid, incisive comment, bruh. Thank you. What is your preferred pronoun, Sweetie?
Cool comment, bruh.
Good Democrat lawfare, bruh. Don't you look forward to Inauguration Day, Queenie, when an experienced Trump takes office?
If Trump is as rich as he wants people to think he is, he can afford to pay a few years of an NFL star's salary.
Pushing? Did he use the DOJ, the FBI, or maybe Homeland?
No, he Tweeted or used a microphone. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the govt compelling or preventing employers’ hiring practices. You know, something akin to a law or regulation.
If you are going to play whataboutism, at least make them comparable.
Great come back, Bruh.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/stepmom-of-ex-atlanta-cop-garrett-rolfe-stunned-she-was-fired-from-job-after-rayshard-brooks-shooting
The employer denies that this is why she was fired.
Rhoid, where do you live, Sweetie? I worry about your safety if you live in a Democrat hellscape. All Democrat jurisdictions are hellscapes, even if extremely rich.
https://wmmr.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2019/04/San-Fran-poop-map-1024x819.png
Rhoid. Thank you. Great chart, really makes my point. Even if you subtract the total underperformance of overly entitled, crybaby diverses from the US born employees, North African and Sub-Saharan immigrants are doing great.
I can’t speak for everywhere but you are absolutely wrong as a blanket statement about black intellectuals being stigmatized.
Africans are the new Koreans. They have tiger moms.
The hardest place is for a Black male to be in the womb.
Queenie. Just kidding. The IQ measures educational attainment. Diverses have street smarts. There is no real difference in intelligence between the races. All disparities are from the bastardy rate.
The bastardy rate spreading to all races now is 100% the fault of the scumbag lawyer profession that is destroying the American family. If diverses want to move forward, beat the ass of a lawyer.
I can’t speak for everywhere but you are absolutely wrong as a blanket statement about black intellectuals being stigmatized.
What part of...
"in the inner city AA community"
...did you interpret as a "blanket statement", let alone one that is "absolutely wrong"?
I think Currentsitguy is thinking of things like this: we had next-door neighbors (I don't care about their race, but if you do, they were Black). They paid money they couldn't really afford to send their kids to parochial school, and they weren't Catholic. The reason, they said, was that when their kids went to the local public schools, doing your homework etc. meant getting harassed for 'acting White'. And yes, that's a verbatim quote.
Now, it worked out for them, because their parents were willing to make the sacrifice to send them to parochial school. But think about all the other kids - the cultural environment of that school system is going to leave many of them disadvantaged their whole lives relative to kids in a school system with a culture of 'education is important, study hard and you will succeed'.
That’s not what he said.
You don't think there have been at least some periods where hospitals were to blame for racial disparities in health?
And, to be clear, you're saying that educational institutions don't systemically harm blacks?
Because one might say that you're the one saying the quiet parts out loud.
Blacks are less likely to get pain meds, less likely to get workups for the same complaints. One explanation is that talking time between cross racial interaction is less. Providers have to make an extra effort to overcome that barrier, and have to talk more across the races.
Whose to blame in the Justice System for its systemic oppression of blacks?
Queenie is so well spoken, so clean, as Biden would say. She rebuts all allegations of lower IQ. Queenie, you have done great. Did you grow up in a single parent family or in a two parent family? Make the bastardy point.
Lol. You side is the one saying that schools are systemically harming blacks.
I don't pretend to know why there are disparities in certain measures of achievement, and I'm not sure that there's much to be gained by spending too much time worrying about it.
If individuals have the tools to succeed, they can use them.
Frankie, you still workin'? Try to not use the word, homo, in an employment setting, to being this back to the subject of the thread.
Queenie, tell us your story, bruh. How did you become so successful?
Do you dispute its accuracy or write it off as a one-off with no wider currency?
So at this point in the thread, you have rejected both statistical data and anecdotal data. Do you have anything useful to add? Or are you just being contrary because you enjoy it?
At some point when individual accounts turn from a few to thousands, tens of thousands, etc or more, you cross the line from anecdote to evidence.
Denying there is a problem in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is not helping to find a solution.
I hate to break it to you but there is no nationwide overarching white conspiracy to keep inner city youth in their place. Believe it or not business don't care about anything when conducting a hire other than whether or not they contribute to the bottom line.
Flagging does nothing. It is ignored.
Diversity is a Chinese Commie Doctrine to force underperforming people on our economy, at the point of a gun. That aims to destroy our economy. All PC is case, and is to generate rent seeking jobs for the scumbag lawyer profession.
Objection - assumes facts not in evidence.
On the contrary, the available evidence suggests that
a) colleges do not value intellectual diversity (see, for example, the multiple studies about political affiliation among professors, especially when controlled for discipline) and
b) that getting students ready for employment in the market place is not their goal at all (see the multiple studies of employers complaining of precisely that).
Queenie. Stop the Commie gaslighting about college. You are making a fool of yourself. They are all treason indoctrination camps. They must be de-exempted, defunded, and shut down. Their assets must be seized in civil forfeiture for tax fraud. To deter.
Colleges value diversity of immutable characteristics. Which would be great if the purpose of college was setting up a Benneton photo shoot.
Diversity of opinion, thought, or ideology is not so important.
Bruh, walk looking down. Where do you live, bruh? I worry about you.
Bruh, look at the first line, US Born, 143000000 people.
Let’s see the breakdown of legal vs illegal.
When we choose to issue visas it’s because the person has something to offer or has a sponsor.
Not so much for the great unwashed flooding our southern border.
"If individuals have the tools to succeed, they can use them."
I do feel sympathy, though, for kids who lose the parent lottery and get parents who don't care if the kids succeed, or perhaps don't know how to tech their kids the basic life skills of, e.g., doing your homework.
My father was an example of what today you would call an 'at risk child', but the schools of the day were better at teaching (indoctrinating, if you prefer!) the basic behavioral skills even if the parents didn't. He was much better off for that.
The average IQ in Japan in 1945 was 100. This is after all the dumb people were killed in the war. It is now 110, because of their emphasis on education. The IQ was designed to predict educational attainment. Genetic make up of a nation cannot change that quickly. African underperformance cannot be excused by brain differences. Underperformers must be punished to improve. In Japan, don't study, get beaten with a stick.
In concurrance/ response to ML & Noscilar - Patton was correct - initially germany was the immediate threat , though Russia was the long term enemy.
Though queen's response shows his weakness in understanding the geopolitical landscape.
Queenie, you are great. How did you overcome all that adversity? You might consider becoming a motivational speaker, like the guy in the Prevagen commercial.
Great point, Rhoid.
Almost everyone has a past where they were part of a group that was discriminated against. How is that an excuse today?
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Obvious you never served (I Know, "Homo" but much better now) common misconception that only the dumb people join/got drafted
I served 3 years.
Does employment speech law apply to court and to seduction?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/prosecutor-who-got-defendant-pregnant-and-had-affair-with-juror-is-now-running-for-judge/ar-AA10dKkl?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4630d76d24ec4c08b4323e7f1dc336b5
Because QA is a contrarian.
That's a much too polite description.
Hard to argue, though, that an educational establishment that uses government funds is private.
That would be a lot more persuasive if y'all didn't complain about "cancel culture" so much.
Face it, you only like people/companies facing social consequences (including loss of employees and business) when you perceive the person/company as doing something "woke" or liberal or whatever. When you read about a person/company facing such social consequences (including loss of employees and business) you call it "cancel culture" and "liberal totalitarianism" and other such nonsense.
I saw his comment mentioning the Patton quote, which I believe was "we fought the wrong enemy." Meaning, they were both enemies, but Patton saw the Soviets as more of a threat to the US. In context, I believe he just wanted to continue on and drive the Soviets out of Eastern Europe, after having defeated the Nazis as well. So your comment seem inaccurate (probably intentionally so).
That may be a fair description of Patton's views, but what mad_kalak said was
If you want to rationalize that as something other than "we should have allied with Nazi Germany" you're going to have work a lot harder than that.
*more blacks as a percentage of the demo
What are the systemic racist systems that the Left says we need to correct, and how are education and health excluded?
I'm talking about the basic structure of our government, and the economy, in relation to the topic at hand. To the extent you have crony capitalism rather than free markets, oligopolies rather than competition, and government fiat rather than consumer choice -- the underlying assumptions about a laissez faire marketplace of both ideas and products tends to break down, and the argument for anti-discrimination laws (as to political speech and other things) may perhaps become stronger. But yeah, genital-related freedoms and whatnot.
Even if the science behind 'intelligence is inheritable' is confusing to you, it saddens me that the axiom 'not procreating with your stupid cousin will help your family get smarter' is confusing to you, because that really seems like a no-brainer.
Science is not racist. IQ tests are not racist. It is unquestionably genetic diversity that increases intelligence in a given population of humans, not cultural diversity. There were thousands of years of isolation and inbreeding within tribes in sub-Saharan Africa and the Americas unlike the continual waves of conquest and colonization that intermixed the populations of Europe and Asia.
Maybe you should look at some of the data that Ancestry and 23&me have compiled regarding genetic diversity. Or you could just point your finger and bleat RAAAAAAAAACIST like a triffid.
Oh it happens. Way more than it should. But as a blanket statement that’s stereotyping at best.
Queenie. Very dark skinned African are the New Koreans, chased by employers and admissions officers waving wads of cash. The ethos is, what can you do for me, not race.
The underperformance of our diverses is from bastardy, 100% the fault of the scumbag lawyer profession destroying the Black family. It had survived slavery, war, discrimination, lynchings, poverty. Until the feminists destroyed it, racial disparities in social pathologies were small, like 10% across the board. After the feminist lawyers got through with it, they soared to 400%.
Yeah. I own a recruiting agency. Have for 14 years. I network with hundreds of others. I know the hiring industry inside and out. We've literally placed thousands of people over the years, white, black, Asian, what have you. We've placed all over the world for US companies. Never once, personally or from any single member of my industry has race ever even brought up, let alone a preference stated. Not overtly, not couched in hidden language. It is a complete non-issue. I suppose somewhere out there there is a business that does, but they are such a miniscule number as to be statistically meaningless.
Anytime I hear someone use the term "institution racism" I always ask "Where?" How can I have worked in an industry that specializes in hiring for going on 18 years now (worked before I owned) and have never seen nor heard of a single example? How can I have never spoken to a candidate who has ever relayed an example in their career?
This isn't a few people, or a neighbor I heard something from I'm talking about. This is years of speaking to thousands upon thousands of people
In all of my years I know of one black man who was blackballed, but that was due to having been dismissed from 3 prior positions for repeatedly sexually harassing female coworkers, and not subtlety, that we found out during a reference check. We were told by multiple sources something along the lines of "Good worker, but he has a problem with the ladies." At that point I don't care what your race or background is, I'm not presenting you, my E&O insurance rates are high enough already.
20 million black babies have been exterminated. Without Roe, there would be 60 million more Democrats today.
Except if you know anything about federal funding.
The government can put strings on its funds, including not discriminating against political opinions.
A grocery store is not the same thing as a university. The latter has a tradition of intellectual openness and free inquiry. The government can insist that its funds support that.
As for a grocery store, I never heard of one that has any interest in its customer's politics.
Cool. But not relevant.
Actually, research has demonstrated that "Acting White" is a real issue. In general, as white kids get higher GPAs, they get more popular and have more friends. But with black kids, once they exceed a 3.5 GOP, their popularity drops, especially among other black kids. Not to mention, they get in more fights.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46497414_An_empirical_analysis_of_'acting_white'
I dare you to find some who's either been a slave, or has a relative who was one less than 150 years ago. Really I don't care if their parents were, its still not an excuse. Past history is utterly irrelevant.
There are no excuses for lack of excellence.
Where is the systemic racism?
No, it’s not based on culture. It’s based on race. We both know it. If it was just culture then they wouldn’t ask for race.
The employer has filed a libel suit against the employee and against Marjorie Taylor Greene (the Republican member of Congress).
https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/lawsuit-accuses-qanon-congressional-candidate-of-planting-defamatory-lie-on-tucker-carlson-tonight/
(The text of the complaint is at the end of the story.)
Blanket statement AL. Not statistical tendency.
“ One of the hardest things to be in America today is to be Black and an aspiring bookworm.”
That remains quite wrong no matter what a study says about marginal differentials. Like, what are HBCUs about if not black intellectualism?
Also: “ Earlier studies showing a positive relationship between popularity and academic achievement for blacks are sensitive to the inclusion of more continuous achievement measures. We argue that the data are most consistent with a model of 'acting white' in which investments in education are taken as a signal of one's opportunity costs of peer-group loyalty, though imprecise estimates make definitive conclusions difficult.”
Don’t post that to prove more than it claims to,
That sound like more like a Black problem. I was given a chance to go back to College by my Employer. I was assigned a "mentor". My "mentor", Roger was a Black Electrical Engineer. I spent many an evening at Roger's kitchen table while he pounded theory into my head. The reason I mention this is that Roger grew up not too far away from his current home. He would not take his kids to his Parent's house, he would always bring his Parents to his. The reason was that his old Neighborhood considered him a "sell out to Whitey". The attitude is that if you weren't a Musician, Singer, Athlete or an Actor and made a success of your self, you were considered a "sell out".
I do wonder how it is that black Americans put up with the Democrats and liberals, who are often well meaning but patronising, engage in cringeworthy white knighting, all the while remaining blissfully ignorant of their own racism - then I read what conservatives have to say about them and it becomes abundantly, horrifyingly clear.
Black people in the US have effectively been living under a brutal fascist dictatoriship for most of its history.
Really I don't care if their parents were, its still not an excuse. Past history is utterly irrelevant.
Sure, parents don't matter in one's intellectual choices!
You mean since 1872?
You need to learn about how Blacks were treated in the South after Reconstruction. It might not have been formal slavery, but with debt peonage, among other things, it was often the practical equivalent.
How can I have worked in an industry that specializes in hiring for going on 18 years now (worked before I owned) and have never seen nor heard of a single example?
That is you not doing your research and coming to a conclusion anyway. Because institutional racism is not about examples, it's about tendencies ad embodied in expectations, school location, network effects.
How did QA misinterpret mad_kalak's comment?
He didn't say we should have fought the Russians after defeating Germany. He said we were on the wrong side.
That's pretty much a pro-Nazi POV.
Okay.
A hundred years ago, I would have grown up working in a factory (no child labor laws yet), would have been a de facto criminal in every state as an adult (sodomy laws in every state), would have had to support my sister until she died (chronic disabling health condition before disability and medicaid), would have been expected to maintain a large presence in my other sister's life as well (never married adult woman), all the while working grueling long hours (this was before the 40-hour workweek).
Oh, and I never would have met the man that became my husband because of segregation, had no opportunity to go to college (no inter-generational wealth in this family) so I would have been a laborer all my life instead of an engineer.
And that's if I survived the Spanish Flu.
But sure, that capital gains taxes were different back then means I would have been so much more free.
Face it, unless you're exclusively talking about rich white men and their freedom to exploit workers, you are way more free in your personal and professional life then any previous generation of Americans.
Awesome!
You're sure it exists, you just can't give any examples, because... reasons.
But you're sure it has an effect! Even though you can't measure it, detect it, or identify it - because all of those would allow examples.
Great science there, Sarc-o, buddy.
Do you really not understand the difference between freedom - liberty - and affordability? Or just plain choice?
Most of your examples have absolutely zero to do with 'freedom'. You're just saying you would have wanted something but might not have been able or willing to pay for it. That doesn't make you unfree.
I mean, I mostly agree with you, but most of your arguments presented are garbage.