The Volokh Conspiracy
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Dobbs Is Making Our Democracy Work
Justice Breyer, whether he admits it or not, should recognize how Dobbs reinvigorated the legislative process on abortion.
Dobbs and Bruen were in tension. In Dobbs, the conservatives said that the people should decide the abortion question, while the progressives said the courts should decide the abortion question. In Bruen, the conservatives said the courts should decide the gun question, while the progressives said the people should decide the gun question. As Justice Sutton asks us, who should decide? Deep down, I hoped that Justice Breyer would be consistent on both questions: let the people decide on guns and on abortion. Such a vote pairing would have been a momentous capstone for his democratic (lowercase "d") philosophy. But, instead Breyer followed his Democratic (capital "D") philosophy. Breyer was so intent on saving Roe that he could not practice what he preaches: making our democracy work.
In the wake of Dobbs, we are already seeing the democratic process at work. And critically, legislatures in red states are forced to confront issues they simply never had to decide before. The absence of Roe is requiring elected representatives to cast difficult votes on abortion. The New York Times distills the process with the headline: "With Roe Gone, Republicans Quarrel Over How Far to Push Abortion Bans." Read through the article. At every juncture, I see government in action.
Abortion opponents, especially in conservative states, had hoped to swiftly pass a new wave of restrictions after Roe v. Wade was overturned. But so far, most Republican lawmakers have moved cautiously or done nothing at all, even in statehouses where they hold overwhelming majorities. A debate playing out in Indiana this week is showing why. Though Republican legislators support the broad idea of restricting abortion, they have clashing views on how far to go. Should there be an outright ban? If so, should there be exceptions for rape and incest? And what if a woman's health is threatened by a pregnancy but doctors do not believe she will die?
One member of the Indiana Senate explained there was never any need to consider these questions before. After all, the "judges of wisdom" "called the contending sides of a national controversy to end their national division by accepting a common mandate rooted in the Constitution." But now, three-hundred million Americans, rather than three lawyers, can discern their own wisdom.
"Those are all questions that are really difficult," said State Senator Rodric Bray, an Indiana Republican whose caucus, which has long worked to limit abortions, has divided over a bill that would ban abortion with some exceptions. Before Roe was overturned this year, Mr. Bray said, lawmakers had not "spent enough time on those issues, because you knew it was an issue you didn't have to really get into the granular level in. But we're now there, and we're recognizing that this is pretty hard work."
To quote George Washington in Hamilton, "Ah, winning was easy, young man, governing's harder." Yes, indeed, legislating is "pretty hard work." Reversing Roe gave that task back to the legislature. Indeed, I see a parallel with West Virginia v. EPA. The major question doctrine restores the legislative issue to the Congress. Writing bills about abortion, and climate change is "pretty hard work." (Ask Joe Manchin.) But this task that belongs to legislators, and not to courts or bureaucrats.
Indiana is not an outlier. Many Republican Governors, several of whom may be presidential or vice presidential candidates, are approaching this issue deliberately:
Leaders in many Republican-led states seem to be biding their time. An exception has been West Virginia, where lawmakers advanced a near-total ban this week after a court blocked enforcement of an 1849 abortion ban in that state. But in Nebraska, where an effort to pass a trigger ban narrowly failed early this year, Gov. Pete Ricketts has discussed the possibility of a special session but has yet to call one. In Florida, Gov. Ron DeSantis has largely avoided questions about whether he would take immediate steps to pass new restrictions. In South Dakota, where a ban went into effect after Roe was struck down, Gov. Kristi Noem backed away from an initial pledge to call lawmakers to the Capitol to consider more abortion bills. And in Iowa, Gov. Kim Reynolds has said she was focused on getting the courts to allow for enforcement of existing restrictions that had been blocked. "Right now it wouldn't do any good to call a special session," Ms. Reynolds, a Republican, told local reporters last month.
The Times focuses at some length on Indiana, which has a unified Republican government:
But even in a state where Democrats have little political power, Indiana Republican leaders find themselves in a political bind. Some Republican legislators, and many of the party's most outspoken supporters, want to ban abortion with few or no exceptions. But one Republican state senator, Kyle Walker, said he wanted abortion to remain legal during the first trimester of pregnancy. And many in the party have raised questions about whether and how to include exceptions for rape, incest and a pregnant woman's health.
"This is one of the most complex issues any of us will ever try to tackle in our lifetime, and this just demonstrates the near impossibility of threading the perfect needle" in a short session, said State Senator Mark Messmer, the Republican who voted against the measure in committee.
Again, by decree "judges of wisdom" stole this "complex issue" from the democratic process, because they knew better. They didn't. Now, the elected representatives of the states will wrestle with where to draw the line. And they will draw the line somewhere between an absolute ban, and what Casey permitted. No longer can legislators simply pass absolute bans on abortion, knowing that the laws will never go into effect because of Roe. Now, the rubber meets the road. Some states may start with very strict bans that, over time, prove too draconian, and will be revised. With the zero-sum game of Roe over, there will be more space to negotiate and compromise. Fittingly, states may wind up somewhere around the fifteen-week line Mississippi crafted, and Chief Justice Roberts approved.
Justice Scalia's clarion call in Casey rings true three decades later:
Quite to the contrary, by foreclosing all democratic outlet for the deep passions this issue arouses, by banishing the issue from the political forum that gives all participants, even the losers, the satisfaction of a fair hearing and an honest fight, by continuing the imposition of a rigid national rule instead of allowing for regional differences, the Court merely prolongs and intensifies the anguish. We should get out of this area, where we have no right to be, and where we do neither ourselves nor the country any good by remaining.
The Court got out of this area, and to paraphrase Lord Mansfield, democracy is working itself pure.
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"Deep down, I hoped that Justice Breyer would be consistent on both questions: let the people decide on guns and on abortion."
You hoped he would ignore the existence of a perfectly on point amendment in one case, and it's absence in the other? Why?
Brett Bellmore
July.28.2022 at 8:44 am
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"You hoped he would ignore the existence of a perfectly on point amendment in one case, and it's absence in the other? Why?"
That is a point that progressives simply cant comprehend.
In a similar vain - progressives are opposed to the death penalty for the guilty of henious crimes, yet embrace the killing of innocents
Perfectly on point?
Gee, I wonder where it specifies that any swinging dick is a regulated militia all on their own.
Yeah, it's an amendment concerning the right of the people to keep and bear arms. How much more on point could it be?
Regulated, in this context, does not mean what you seem to be implying it means.
"well regulated" - I've always assumed that this meant a militia that was trained and effective. How is it a "well regulated militia" when people can buy guns with zero training and no participation in any collective defense? And in many states, concealed carry permits require laughably little training. My state of Florida requires a couple hours of sitting through a lecture about gun safety. Then you have to go shoot one round while an instructor watches and certifies that you probably won't shoot yourself the foot.
raspberrydinners is simply pointing out that Scalia's Heller opinion had to declare the whole militia reference to be superfluous and to have no effect whatsoever.
I'll never understand how it is textualist, originalist, or whatever else that conservative jurists claim to adhere to, to so completely ignore words in the Amendment. Treating the actual Preamble of the Constitution as broad statements of purpose and not legally binding on its own makes sense. But within the text of each Article and Amendment, the words were debated and chosen very carefully. To treat the militia reference as not affecting how to interpret the people's right to bear arms is ignoring it because it is inconvenient for what you want to be true.
Unsurprisingly, nowhere does the amendment say that only the well regulated militia can own weapons. It says the right to keep and bear arms serves the purpose of having a well regulated militia. And when your militia members can learn on, practice with, and bring their own weapons, you've got a better militia.
In fact, there was discussion of this at the time: If the right had been restricted to the well regulated militia, it could have been rendered a nullity by simply not HAVING a well regulated militia, setting its size to zero, or controlling its membership to the point of turning it into a standing army.
The right was deliberately not limited to militia members, to forestall that tactic, and assure that you'd have an armed populace from which a militia could be raised in an emergency even if the government had set out to get rid of the militia.
After all, a well regulated militia might be necessary to the security of a free state, but what if the people running the state don't WANT it to be free?
Salia did not ignore it. Read his opinion. Sample: the prefatory clause “does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting.”
He kind of had to claim that, since he intended to largely restrict the right to self-defense and sport, by endorsing prohibitions against ownership of military weapons.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Well educated juries being necessary to just outcomes in an adversarial legal system, the right of the people to own and read books shall not be infringed.
Who has the right to keep and read books? Jury members or the whole population?
The second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to the whole population so that if it becomes necessary to call up the militia (which includes everyone of military age not in the army) more of them will be able to shoot straight.
Incidentally, if it matters to anyone, well-regulated at the time of the second amendment meant properly functioning, not thoroughly controlled; examples at the time included a well-regulated clock and a well-regulated mind.
(The commas are inconsistent in contemporary copies of the amendment and hence cannot change the meaning.)
similar vain
A well regulated road system necessary for transportation, the right of the people to keep and bear vehicles shall not be infringed.
A well regulated school system necessary for the knowledge of a educated population, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed.
As Joe_dallas adds, they could have included those kinds of statements to the other rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights or elsewhere in the Constitution. But they didn't. Why only for the right to bear arms? Are we supposed to think that after debating details of word choice and voting in committees on multiple formulations, that they only included that kind of statement in the 2nd Amendment only for us to not give it any force at all?
The Court's huzza-filled decision upholding the new 'Josh Blackman Can No Longer Post' law is our Democracy in Action.
I agree that Republicans are struggling with abortion laws. Democrat lawmakers are also struggling, with the issue being abortions up to the moment of live birth. Some even say abortions should be allowed for a short period after birth, stretching the definition of abortion rather far.
There are people pushing the extremes on both sides.
Almost nobody aligns with voters, who would largely accept the Mississippi law that was upheld in Dobbs. (Not the Mississippi ban now in effect.)
Almost nobody aligns with voters, who would largely accept the Mississippi law that was upheld in Dobbs. (Not the Mississippi ban now in effect.)
That is because both parties are more beholden to their respective bases than to voters in the middle of issues. The way elections work in the U.S. makes it difficult to even get moderate or centrist candidates on the general election ballot except in the most evenly divided districts or states.
Well, for fifty years the abortion debate has been all about appealing to people who will donate, march in a protest (either side), volunteer to escort at an abortion clinic, volunteer to work at a pregnancy crisis center, and so on. The people who cared about abortion less than that didn't matter because Roe meant their votes didn't matter, and that's all they had to offer.
So of course the abortion issue has bifurcated into elective abortion always forbidden and abortion always allowed.
Democrat lawmakers are also struggling, with the issue being abortions up to the moment of live birth. Some even say abortions should be allowed for a short period after birth, stretching the definition of abortion rather far.
I would like to see where anyone, especially Democratic Party lawmakers, are supporting elective* abortion "up to the moment of birth". (*elective abortion I define as the pregnant woman deciding that she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a child, with no medical indications of heightened risk to her or of abnormalities in the embryo or fetus)
The basis of being pro-choice is that a woman should not have to be pregnant if she doesn't want to be. "Up to the moment of birth", as you put it, I would think that the simplest and safest way to end a pregnancy is to deliver the baby. And once it is delivered, there is absolutely no need to kill it to end the pregnancy, so that is not something I've ever heard anyone pro-choice propose.
The only thing I can think of is that you are taking things that have been said or proposed out of context or twisting them. If I am wrong, then I would be interested in seeing who said these things and when and where and with full context.
There are people pushing the extremes on both sides.
Be interested in what Dem bills you are seeing about abortion up until live birth.
Just a few -
Women's Health Protection Act of 2022?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2021?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2020?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2019?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2017?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2015?
Women's Health Protection Act of 2013?
Both House and Senate versions of each one.
Oh? And could point to what text within those bills that would allow for elective abortions at say, 38 weeks gestation?
Out of curiosity, what was it exactly that prevented Congress from adopting climate change legislation before West Virginia v. EPA?
A lack of votes in favor of it.
Exactly, which is (I guess) what Josh means with invigorated democracy. Hence my confusion about this bit:
Indeed, I see a parallel with West Virginia v. EPA. The major question doctrine restores the legislative issue to the Congress. Writing bills about abortion, and climate change is "pretty hard work." (Ask Joe Manchin.) But this task that belongs to legislators, and not to courts or bureaucrats.
As far as I can see, everyone has less power after WV v. EVA. Congress, the President, the "bureaucrats". The only people who have more power based on that precedent are the Republicans on the Supreme Court.
I don't see how Congress has less power now. They're still capable of achieving the same set of policies they could before, they just have to actually write them into the law, rather than write something general and count on some bureaucrat to get the hint.
It does reduce the power of the executive, by getting in the way of some delegations of legislative power to the executive. But that's a good thing.
But, yes, I'm somewhat troubled by the discretionary aspect of this doctrine, I'd much prefer the Court just restored anti-delegation, and didn't exercise any discretion about what was major or minor.
The power that Congress has lost is the power to write laws with broad delegations, a power that they had since the Articles of Confederation, and have used frequently. (Eg. in my line of work the Sherman Act basically delegated the task of inventing antitrust law to the courts.)
The only power they've lost is the power to give their power to somebody else. And that's a power they shouldn't be able to exercise, because it removed the making of law from direct democratic accountability; Congress could arrange for things to become law, and deny being responsible for the resulting laws.
In terms of actual policies, they can still get any policy they want that they could have gotten before, they just have to be seen doing it, and suffer the electoral consequences, instead of pretending they didn't mean for "that" to happen, naughty bureaucrats!.
If Congress is supposed to do its own job and the EPA's job, when do you suppose it should do the job of the SEC, the FCC, and the FDA? Or are you telling me that the administrative state is effectively unconstitutional? (In which case Congress has definitely lost something, i.e. the realistic ability to regulate medicines, securities trading, etc.)
If Congress creates agencies, and delegates to them pieces of its law making authority, that authority doesn't cease to be Congress' job, it's just their job they've dumped on somebody else.
Yeah, Congress is not up to the task of micromanaging the entire country. Nobody is.
The EPA has never been, nor can it ever be, enpowered to "regulate the environment". I realize that some people think that is how it was in the beginning and continued until the dastardly Court unended that, but it doesn't make it so.
Trying to classify carbon dioxide as a pollutant runs contrary to the legal mandate the EPA was granted by the Clean Air Act. No amount of fossil fuel burning would ever make the air itself unhealthy to breath. Higher concentrations of CO2 have a secondary effect which is entirely the controversy about what policy to enact to curtail that effect.
The EPA has never been, nor can it ever be, enpowered to "regulate the environment".
You do know what EPA stands for, right?
a name does not grant carte blanche to act itself
I already clarified below that my complete point was that no amount of fossil fuel burning would make the air unhealthy because of the carbon dioxide generated.
By existing legal grants of authority, carbon dioxide does not make the air less clean. As I said previously and others following have said the "E" in EPA is not a cart blanche grant of authority to do whatever the "experts" think wise. That's exactly what is at stake here with the scope of Congress's authority to delegate.
Mad-engineer - The scientific dispute is whether that secondary effect of increased co2 actually exists.
Far too much of the "settled science" is based on reaching conclusions not well supported by the underlying raw data.
Mad-engineer - The scientific dispute is whether that secondary effect of increased co2 actually exists.
There hasn't been a scientific dispute over whether there is a greenhouse effect and that CO2 is an important greenhouse gas in any of our lifetimes. Reliable data on global CO2 concentrations didn't exist until the 60's, so analyzing how much of an effect fossil fuel consumption was likely to have on the greenhouse effect on human time scales was difficult, at best. But the greenhouse theory goes back about 200 years, with the hypothesis that burning fossil fuels could affect it going back over a century. In all of that time, the data collected and advances in technology could have disproved that hypothesis, but it has only gotten more well supported over time instead. The only people still doubting that increasing CO2 has been and will continue to warm the planet are those that don't want to believe it.
You are rather selectively reading the data and knowledge about how the greenhouse effect actually works. In fact, we know quite well how much direct heating occurs as CO2 concentration increases in isolation. It follows a logarithmic curve which means that almost all of the possible warming attributable to CO2 already occurred long ago and that further warming requires exponential increases in CO2 concentration. No one contests that data.
The catastrophic global warming hypothesis does not and cannot depend on CO2 alone. That hypothesis assumes that CO2 is not in isolation but that it acts as a driver of other greenhouse gases, principally water vapor. That is, as CO2 increases, it will drive increases in atmospheric water vapor which is not yet at saturation. The problem with this hypothesis is that the predicted increase in atmospheric water vapor has not been observed. Therefore, the multiplier effect either doesn't exist or is much smaller than the catastrophists believe.
On the contrary, there is interesting and compelling counter-evidence that the so-called multiplier might even be negative, leading to a negative feedback loop. This is consistent with the observation that long-term climate is remarkably stable even in response to large perturbations of CO2 concentration from, for example, volcanic activity.
A nice summation, I have nothing to add.
The CO2 saturation argument was actually first made by Angstrom a few years after Arrhenius published his hypothesis in 1896. It misses a couple of important points about how the greenhouse effect works. But first, I simply note that there is empirical evidence showing that greenhouse gas IR absorption is not saturated. That paper, from 2001, and extended and confirmed from later satellite measurements, shows a clear difference in the amount of outgoing IR being absorbed within various wavelength bands by different greenhouse gases. (There are also results showing the difference in IR coming from the atmosphere back toward the surface, as expected.)
The issue here is that increasing GHG concentrations raise the altitude at which the IR can escape the Earth's atmosphere to space. The concentration of all gases decreases with altitude, and eventually, the absorption bands are not saturated anymore. And it is colder at those higher altitudes, making the outgoing power less.
The problem with this hypothesis is that the predicted increase in atmospheric water vapor has not been observed. Therefore, the multiplier effect either doesn't exist or is much smaller than the catastrophists believe.
From what I have been able to find within the last half hour, that seems to be false.
The abstract of that paper:
Data from the satellite-based Special Sensor Microwave Imager (SSM/I) show that the total atmospheric moisture content over oceans has increased by 0.41 kg/m2 per decade since 1988. Results from current climate models indicate that water vapor increases of this magnitude cannot be explained by climate noise alone. In a formal detection and attribution analysis using the pooled results from 22 different climate models, the simulated “fingerprint” pattern of anthropogenically caused changes in water vapor is identifiable with high statistical confidence in the SSM/I data. Experiments in which forcing factors are varied individually suggest that this fingerprint “match” is primarily due to human-caused increases in greenhouse gases and not to solar forcing or recovery from the eruption of Mount Pinatubo. Our findings provide preliminary evidence of an emerging anthropogenic signal in the moisture content of earth's atmosphere.
We can scour the internet all day, but in the end, we are not climate scientists. It is not our full time job to study this, and we could never match their knowledge and understanding. It is part of the job of scientists to communicate what they have learned to a general audience when their research has implications for public policy, no doubt. (And just to get people excited about supporting their work, such as with the amazing JWST images coming out.) But then, our skepticism, as always, needs to be directed everywhere, not just at things we don't want to accept.
There are always contrarians in scientific fields. When I went to an APS meeting as a grad student, I was cornered by a guy convinced that he had disproved Einstein's theories of Relativity. If we really don't want to believe something, finding contrarians, even ones with some real experience in those fields, is always possible. The mantle of Galileo, the persecuted, but correct contrarian, gets passed to those that are proven right by the weight of evidence that is able to convince other scientists. No one gets to put it on themselves.
You are missing the point of what I posted. Greenhouse gas IR absorption in aggregate is not at saturation but CO2's direct contribution to that effect is. The article you cite makes the very point I made - that it's dependent on assumptions about water vapor.
Your second citation is not based on observation. That "study" is attempting to use climate model outputs as evidence. Models can't do that. Computer models are complicated mathematical translations of the researcher's hypothesis. They are not and can never be evidence confirming the hypothesis.
You may not be able to understand climate studies but some of the rest of us can. And to the point above, when the people publishing the catastrophic studies get the easy things so wrong that even the rest of us can see them, why should we trust them on the harder things?
Greenhouse gas IR absorption in aggregate is not at saturation but CO2's direct contribution to that effect is. The article you cite makes the very point I made - that it's dependent on assumptions about water vapor.
No, CO2's direct contribution is not saturated either. As I said, increasing GHG concentrations mean that the altitude at which the IR radiation escapes into space increases, which results in warming the surface.
That "study" is attempting to use climate model outputs as evidence. Models can't do that. Computer models are complicated mathematical translations of the researcher's hypothesis. They are not and can never be evidence confirming the hypothesis.
You are not describing the role of models in science correctly or what that abstract is saying. They describe the models being used in two ways: 1) to simulate how much climate noise (natural variability) could be expected over that time period and the chance that the observed increase is such noise rather than real trend. 2) What the "fingerprint" of increased water vapor would be if it was being driven by GHG warming. (The abstract doesn't detail what those fingerprints would be, so we'd have to read the paper to evaluate that aspect of it.)
The abstracts first words were "Data from the satellite-based Special Sensor Microwave Imager (SSM/I) show that the total atmospheric moisture content over oceans has increased by 0.41 kg/m2 per decade since 1988." That was measurement data, not computer models. And again, that contradicts what you said about water vapor not increasing as predicted. Comparing models to observations is the point of developing models, and they are doing that all of the time. If the models fit past observations well, then we can believe that they would be useful in giving us likely outcomes when projected into the future under various scenarios.
The British statistician, George E. P. Box is quoted as saying, "All models are wrong, but some are useful." All of science is developing models. We may use other words, like theory or law or hypothesis, but what we are really doing is creating models of what we think is going on. The current theory describing three of the four fundamental forces of physics is even called the Standard Model of Particle Physics.
You may not be able to understand climate studies but some of the rest of us can. And to the point above, when the people publishing the catastrophic studies get the easy things so wrong that even the rest of us can see them, why should we trust them on the harder things?
I never said that I couldn't understand them, just that I don't spend the time doing so the way that professionals do. I can understand what I find and read when I am motivated to do so. Frankly, I don't think you are understanding what you read as well as you think you do, since what you think is "so wrong" is not.
JasonT20 - the greenhouse effect is not in dispute.
The dispute is solely how much of an effect it has on temps. the theoretical data shows a large effect, the real world empirical data is quite inconclusive with lots of contradictory data. (along with lots of misrepresentations by the advocates).
Same with masking - virtually everyone agrees that masking will reduce the spread of a respiratory virus. the question is how much.
the real world empirical data shows very little effect while the lab data shows a large effect.
No amount of fossil fuel burning would ever make the air itself unhealthy to breath.
Bullshit. I suggest standing directly behind a diesel truck and doing some deep breathing if you really think that. Is smoking tobacco harmless as well? Do you have some scientific basis to say this, or are you just being contrarian?
Sorry, I should have been more explicit:
No amount of fossil fuel burning would ever make the air itself unhealthy to breath because of the CARBON DIOXIDE generated. Including from that otherwise dirty diesel truck.
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that the concentrations of CO2 that become significant to human health could not be reached by burning fossil fuels within at least the next 100 years, even with "business as usual" scenarios. (It is plausible that burning fossil fuels indefinitely could, after multiple centuries, as CO2 does eventually become toxic. Remember the movie Apollo 13.)
Atmospheric CO2 levels are currently at approximately 400 parts per million. For context, submariners routinely tolerate CO2 levels between 2000 and 5000 ppm and generally use a safety level over 10,000 ppm.
A study a couple years back concluded that burning 100% of all known fossil fuel reserves worldwide would be insufficient to get even one more doubling of atmospheric CO2 in the terrestrial atmosphere. So, no, it's not plausible even over multiple centuries that we will ever be able to raise concentrations of CO2 to levels significant to human health.
By the way, the Apollo 13 CO2 levels were a bit shy of 60,000 ppm. I'm not sure if that counts as additional context or just trivia but it's fun to know.
I'm sure there is plenty of uncertainty surrounding it, but what I am seeing in quick searches shows that those known reserves would only last ~50-150 years (depending on type of resource) at current production rates. So, we would need to be continuing to discover new reserves to continue to meet demand beyond the century mark regardless.
Where in the Clean Air Act do you find the standard "make the air itself unhealthy to breath[e]"?
Well that last parenthetical explains your problematic viewpoint. While such broad grant of authority may have been made in the Sherman Act, not every other statutory regulatory grant of authority is necessarily as broad. The evolution of federal pollution/air quality laws from the 1950's disproves the notion that Congress ever just grants general regulatory to policy area such as the environment.
Writing bills about abortion, and climate change is "pretty hard work." (Ask Joe Manchin.) But this task that belongs to legislators, and not to courts or bureaucrats.
Tell that to the Shelby County majority. Never mind that Congress had reauthorized the Voting Rights Act just seven years before, and could have updated the formula for what jurisdictions were subject to preclearance if it wanted to. Roberts and the other conservatives lamented how difficult it was for Republican Congressmen vote for removing that protection to voting rights, because they might get accused of racism. So, they had to do it.
Are you suggesting that the second amendment doesn't confer a right to bear arms?
No, he's suggesting that it would be better if it didn't, because without the 2nd amendment the US would have a more invigorated democratic debate about gun control.
Maybe he was just hoping for some consistency from Breyer?
But, no. Josh seems not to consider the 2nd amendment to be relevant.
Without the 13th amendment the US would have a more invigorated democratic debate about slavery.
Sure, you can use that example too. That's basically why the OP is dumb.
Maybe the point is the BOOK is dumb, because the job of the judiciary isn't to invigorate democratic debate, it's to uphold the laws (Including the Constitution.) that result from it?
Originally, the bill of rights only restrained the federal government, not the states. In this situation, the federal government could not infringe on the right to bear arms in any way, shape or form. States could regulate gun ownership in accordance with the desires of their local population, subject to State constitutions which may protect the right to bear arms.
There is no tension between Dobbs and Bruen. The second amendment actually exists, and any interpretation which does not convey an individual right to keep and bear arms forces the meaning of the word "people" to change within the same document. There is no provision in the Constitution which guarantees a right to abortion. Hence, no conflict, just correct interpretation of the supreme law of the land.
I agree, except that I'm skeptical of the doctrine of incorporation, though it is admittedly well settled case law.
In my comment here I was just trying to clarify how the 2nd amendment can indeed "confer a right to bear arms" while also not applying the states. The original effect and intention of the 2nd amendment was just that.
Incorporation via the 14th amendment is on pretty solid grounds, if you go back and look at the debates concerning its drafting and adoption. The problem was that the Supreme court almost immediately set out to render the amendment moot, and terminate reconstruction.
I don't blame anybody who finds the details of how incorporation finally got accomplished in the 20th century kind of sketchy, though.
M L
July.28.2022 at 11:15 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Originally, the bill of rights only restrained the federal government, not the states. "
That certainly was the conclusion in Barron v Baltimore - that the BOR only applied to the federal govt.
though worth reading Thomas concurring opinion in Mcdonald and his footnote. There is a school of thought (granted a minority position ) that the states were parties to the constitution, as such, contract between the federal government, the people, and the states, that therefore the BOR was incorporated against the states at ratification. (most specifically the double jeopardy clause - which is why Gamble was wrongly decided)
Should the people get input on government policy and societal values though? Or should government policy and societal values be left entirely to the elites, with the people merely instructed to believe and act as the elites demand?
The premise that democracy works is argumentative at best. While people like VC commentator Queen Amitha (sp) worship at its alter, and find any criticism of democracy as some sort of evil attempt at dictatorship, there really is no connection between democracy and liberty.
Democracy becomes a legal means for the masses to engage in legal plunder and deprive people of their rights. Interestingly, according to abortion rights activists, that is exactly the argument they are making. They argue that if the question of abortion is left to a democratic process, a “right to abortion” may be lost.
So while Queenie, et al, claim to worship at its alter, they will argue that the process will result in exactly the outcome I said, to deprive people of liberty. I wonder if she will agree with me now about democracy? Unlikely, because the greater outcome of plunder is more important.
Ultimately, we can not eradicate democracy because people believe in its fallacies too strongly. These include the belief that an uniformed populace can make choices about policies about which they know or understand very little. That the “will of the people” is expressed in an election on every issue when in fact, it may only reflect a small percentage of the total number of people and certainly is not representative of the entire platform of every candidate. (One can vote for a candidate but only support 60% of their agenda, eg). And of course the biggie, that democracy insures liberty. Pro-abortion advocates can no longer argue that fallacy.
The only way to eradicate democracy would be to eradicate the state. While a condition of anarchism might be better than democratic governance, it is unlikely to come to fruition, ever. Therefore, perhaps it is time to revisit the Founders’ vision of mitigating the worst aspects of democracy and democracy itself and even to go further than they considered:
https://libertyseekingrebel.blogspot.com/2021/09/freedom-amendments.html?m=1
*altar.
I mean, not really.
Dobbs did nothing but punt the issue of a right back to states, which it shouldn't ever have to begin with. Moreover, even with Congress, you have a democracy horribly skewed in favor of land versus the people. There's no sane reason a voter in Wyoming should get a comparably more powerful vote than someone in California or Texas.
If nothing else, it just shows that our democracy is broken. You shouldn't be letting states decide on human rights and you shouldn't have geographical location deciding if your vote counts or not.
There is a reason that anywhere the US invaded and helped set up a democracy has NEVER been in the style of the US Government- because it's fucked from the jump.
"There's no sane reason a voter in Wyoming should get a comparably more powerful vote than someone in California or Texas."
There's no sane reason that a voter in Wyoming should get any vote at all on what happens in California or Texas. And vice versa.
The current leftist line is basically New York City and Chicago should run the rest of nation simply because more people live there. Because the residents of New York City clearly would know how to govern Wyoming or even care about the best interests of remote states....
The current line is that when most of the people want something, that should matter.
Y'all are the ones making it about location. In modern America, all kinds of people are scattered everywhere in greater or lesser concentrations.
Now now, let's not attack the guys writing the constitution in the late 18th century when there was no Wyoming. They were trying to find a way to model themselves after Britain, but with a weaker executive, and an aristocracy that had no titles. Fast forward to today, and you have an aristocracy of the rural v. the rest of the population. That wasn't how anyone foresaw things at "the jump"
How do you define "aristocracy" such that you think the rural US is one? Or do you mean that they are the non-aristocracy?
If you prefer the example of Delaware we can use that, in fact Delaware having proportional representation might have saved us the Pedo Pete Presidency.
"There's no sane reason a voter in Wyoming should get a comparably more powerful vote than someone in California or Texas."
Then you should be delighted by Dobbs: It has now been made clear that a voter in Wyoming has no say at all about the abortion laws of California or Texas.
Bur there was sane reason, when the Constitution was written and then adopted, why Delaware's Senate vote should have the same weight as New York's. Without that proviso, we would not have a Constitution, and probably not a country. If it's time to change it, refer to the Constitution for how to git 'er done.
And that reason - the Constitution is a compromise between a national government by and responsible to the people, and a national government by and primarily responsible to the states, in which the states retain a significant amount of say as states - remains the reason why Wyoming gets the same votes in the Senate as California ans New York.
Onely one half of one branch of government - the House of Representatives - was to be elected directly by the people. Senators and Presidents were to be selected by state legislatures. Judges were selected by the President and Senate with no say from any directly elected branch. The idea was the states retained residual sovereignty and representation in the federal government as sovereigns, much like countries are respresented in the United Nations.
If one is going to claim compromises are irrational and only purist positions hold up to reason, could just as well argue it would more consistent with the real plan of the Constitution to abolish popular elections for the House, or perhaps abolish the House entirely, and that given how much the rest of the federal government is primarily under the control of the states, direct popular election of the House of Representatives is the irrational anomaly that ought to be abolished in order to give effect to the “real” intent of the Framers.
Two changes have occurred, one by amendment and one by statute. Senators became selected by popular election instead of by legislatures. And legislatures have generally chosen to use a popular vote to select presidential electors instead of selecting them themselves.
But neither change alters the fact that both the senate and the President are chosen by states, not being the people of the United States as a whole. All elections for those officers are by state voters acting as state actors and agents of their state, not by people acting as agents of the United States considered as a single entity.
If the concept of sovereign states is irrational, why should the concept of sovereign countries be spared? Why should the United States be permitted to have different laws from, say, Egypt? Why shouldn’t Egyptions get to vote for President? Why should the US government get to ignore the will of the United Nations? Why ahould small countries get the same vote in the Unitef Nations as big ones? Why should there be a US government? Why shouldn’t everyone in the world have one government and all get the same vote? Why should nations be permitted residual sovereignty? Why shouldn’t they be regarded as just provinces of the one world government?
That is not remotely what Dobbs said.
I wonder if you'd be OK with population based voting in the United Nations?
If it were on the same basis as the US Constitution? Sure, why not? One chamber population based, one chamber equal representation of states, and both chambers must agree in order to do anything. With the things they CAN do severely limited, and most matters subject to subsidarity.
Mind, there's the little catch that the world's most populous country is a totalitarian state without anything like a genuine democracy.
How is that different from a lot of the most populated states in the US?
The left is not interested in "democracy" as an ideal. It is merely a rhetorical device used to make the useful idiots think they are doing something virtuous. Just like the left really didn't care about "freedom of speech" which is a principle they quickly abandoned once they had a firm grasp on that lever of power.
The left is interested in only imposing its will which is some weird form of totalitarianism and cultural marxism. I would expect no such concession from anyone on the left as now they have to "work" for an issue they used to otherwise just be able to let a few democrat appointments to the federal judiciary to carry their water.
There is no tension because these are two different issues.
Issue 1) the right to keep and bear arms is a right expressly defined in an amendment to the constitution. Your rights are not violated if I own or carry a firearm. The right to own and carry is not subject to democracy.
Issue 2) abortion brings the rights of two humans into conflict and the constitution is silent on the matter. Because rights are in conflict, the best place to decide where the line is is through the democratic process.
We do have a democratic line in regard to guns. It’s in their use for self defense. Democracy decides when it is proper or improper to use a firearm in self-defense. The constitution says democracy can’t keep me from owning or carry a gun (and SCOTUS allows for some restrictions). But it’s the legislatures the legal requirements for define self defense.
See, no conflict.
"Issue 2) abortion brings the rights of two humans into conflict"
Excellent point - a concept the abortionists cant grasp
Though as queen notes - Until the baby is born, it has no rights under the US constitution even though it a living human being.
"In Dobbs, the conservatives said that the people should decide the abortion question, while the progressives said the courts should decide the abortion question. In Bruen, the conservatives said the courts should decide the gun question, while the progressives said the people should decide the gun question."
Only if you ignore the Constitution.
The Constitution explicitly expresses a view on gun rights; it does no such thing regarding abortion. "
Enumerated rights matter.
It would be supremely ironic if the norm became the 15-week mark which was the law at issue in Dobbs. The Chief Justice would get his wish, albeit in an entirely different way.
It's a story as old as history.
"Hey, we have more bodies in this City of ours. Let's go dominate and rule over these other lands and peoples that don't want anything to do with us, because we can."
consent of the majority without trampling the rights of the minority
progressives cant seem to fathom this constitutional thingy
The Second Amendment.
Read it. It doesn't say that.
Just imagine our country leaving your cancer treatment access 'to the states' because of your 'God-given' genetic tendency to the disease.
Neither you, nor 'the legislators', nor anyone else, besides myself and my doctor, should be involved with the decision on who uses my organs to live.
If you are somehow confused as to whether my right to determine who uses my organs to live is 'in the constitution', like the military having access to guns is, then we absolutely should spell that out for the slower folks in the room in the form of a formal amendment.
Jesus H Christ, the arrogance is breathtaking.
No, it's a right to keep and bear arms, period. Not for any specified purpose.
Having the right to keep and bear arms, you can then use those arms for any lawful purpose, of which self defense is one.
yes it does - try to read 2a sometime
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Compare and contrast the actual 2A with the one proposed by Stevens (where stevens basically admitted that his dissent was wrong)
Nor do they understand the concept of federalism and the proper role of federal vs. state governments....
Queen almathea
July.28.2022 at 12:36 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"The Constitution only recognizes the rights of people born."
What ever justification you can use to let yourself sleep at night.
Voting is not really domination.
It can be. That's why the concept of the "tyranny of the majority" exists.
For a simple example, consider two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner.
All government action rests on the threat of force and violence.
“Voting is not really domination”
Bahahaha. That is the best joke I have heard today. Majority imposing its will over others is precisely the definition of domination.
Whether the oppression of people is committed by a dictatorship of one person or many makes no difference to the person who is being forced to comply.
You just cannot bring yourself to the conclusion which logic requires. Or, perhaps abortion is one of those so-called rights which some have to give up, according to your interpretation of Locke?
As for a process that respects all participants autonomy, anarchism infringes on no rights. Agorism infringes on no liberties. Democracy by its very nature is the opposite as it imposes the will of the majority on others.