The Volokh Conspiracy
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Kagan Clings To Casey's Conception of Legitimacy
Like the Constitution itself, Casey's precedent on precedent is dead.
On Thursday, Justice Kagan spoke to the Ninth Circuit Judicial Conference. She was careful to avoid talking about Dobbs directly, but she clearly alluded to the case. And, according to the Washington Post, she invoked the concept of "legitimacy" as defined by Casey. (Update: C-SPAN posted the video here.) That is, the Court's "legitimacy" is linked to public perception. Justice Kagan stated:
"I'm not talking about any particular decision or any particular series of decisions. But if, over time, the court loses all connection with the public and the public sentiment, that's a dangerous thing for democracy," Kagan said. "We have a court that does important things, and if that connection is lost, that's a dangerous thing for the democratic system as a whole." . . .
"Overall, the way the court retains its legitimacy and fosters public confidence is by acting like a court, is by doing the kind of things that do not seem to people political or partisan, by not behaving as though we are just people with individual political or policy or social preferences," she said.
That was certainly the conception of legitimacy advanced in Casey, and (likely) drafted by Justice Souter. For three decades, Casey was precedent on precedent. But that is not the only conception of legitimacy.
The Dobbs Court emphatically repealed and replaced that notion of legitimacy. Now, legitimacy is defined by following written law, without regard to public perception. Linda Greenhouse's column laments that shift:
. . . Justice Alito actually had the gall to write that "we do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today's decision." Polls conducted before the opinion's release showing that upward of two-thirds of Americans wanted to retain a right to abortion offered a hint and were perhaps what led to Justice Alito's self-righteous declaration: "We cannot allow our decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public's reaction to our work."
Dobbs overruled Casey's undue burden framework, but also overruled the precedent on precedent. Justice Scalia would often joke that the Constitution is dead, dead, dead. We should say the same for Casey's precedent on precedent. It's dead, dead, dead.
I made this point in my recent Newsweek essay:
During oral argument, Justice Breyer worried that by overruling "a super case like" Roe, the people will "say, no, you're just political, you're just politicians." He warned that such politicization will "kill[] us as an American institution." Justice Sotomayor stated the issue more bluntly. She remarked that sponsors of the Mississippi law limiting abortion after 15 weeks supported it because of the "new Justices on the Supreme Court." Sotomayor asked, "Will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts?" The Court's progressives were imploring the conservatives to avert a Souter-esque legitimacy crisis. Yet, these pleas went unanswered. . . .
This redefined conception of legitimacy upsets long-standing views about the Court. But more importantly, Dobbs compels a recalibration by the Court's critics. In the past, progressives repeatedly warned that overruling a precedent like Roe would undermine the Court's legitimacy. If Dobbs is any indication, these barbs will be met with a collective yawn.
The critics of Dobbs must recognize this new paradigm, regroup, and advance a new strategy.
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Yes, precedent. Do not wash hands between deliveries in the hospital. Do not use computer chips in cars. We did not do that in the past.
This is the dumbest profession in the country, where lack of progress, and opposition to change is a value.
The real problem I think is that with Roe and Casey the court lost all connection with the public and public sentiment, that's the dangerous thing. The Court stepped out in front of the public and created new law rather that doing what it did in Dobbs by finding the existing law unconstitutional and turning it back to the states to fix.
Roe was supported by roughly 70% of society at the time. Southern Baptists even supported it. Not sure how that is "out in front of the public."
Interracial marriage in 1968 had 20% approval per Gallup. So Loving was wrongly decided?
Why are you crediting a poll over the laws of nearly every single state? Why did your overwhelming public support not translate to a change in law?
Legislative intertia.
There is a provision in the Massachusetts State Constitution that provides that the governor of Massachusetts must be of the Christian religion; it dates from the days of the Puritans. Obviously unconstitutional, and no question an overwhelming majority of Bay Staters would favor getting rid of it. But the legislature has just never gotten around to doing it. Unless your ox is being gored, you've got other things to think about.
That’s quite the claim to make without a citation.
shawn_dude
July.22.2022 at 12:35 pm
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Roe was supported by roughly 70% of society at the time. Southern Baptists even supported it. Not sure how that is "out in front of the public."
Shawn - tell us which poll had that result
Dobbs was nakedly political. It was the explicit goal of Trump's three appointments, and they did their legislative duty.
You've called that "bravery" and "legitimacy," but the better term is "judicial activism."
Is judicial activism the new norm? Probably for a while, even when the liberals are back in the majority. It's enabled by the subjective and infinitely malleable History and Tradition test as well as the magic incantations of the Egregiously Wrong Doctrine.
Projection is alive and well in Randal.
"judicial activism."
Is reversing "judicial activism" still "judicial activism"?
You want Roe, naked "judicial activism" likeDred Scot to survive. One way ratchet after all.
Democrats had their own litmus tests on abortion.
Well if the Democrats did it, that makes it ok.
No doubt.
Yet everyone on both sides keeps talking, or did, about not having litmus tests.
It's almost as if there exists a make-believe court that everyone pretends is real, and a real one we're not supposed to talk about.
In other recent blog posts, blackman has said that the other precedents are not really in jeopardy because there is no public sentiment to even bring cases that could overturn those other precedents.
Yet, he still is steadfast that the court should disregard public sentiment.
In order for both of those positions to be consistent, if even one plaintiff managed to bring a case about one of the other precedents (mentioned by thomas in dobbs), the court should not consider public sentiment when deciding whether or not to grant cert.
But blackman seems to imply that sentiment is exactly what will control for the odd case that surely will be brought about those precedents.
Agreed. This the the proof that it's really all about conservative judicial activism for Josh. Those bravely activist conservative justices.
Public sentiment should not affect SCOTUS rulings. Yet public sentiment does affect SCOTUS rulings. No contradiction here.
The contradiction comes when Josh puts Dobbs (which is clearly a product of public sentiment in his mind as that's its limiting principle) forward as a model for legitimacy owing to its disregard of public sentiment.
How is "You know, states, you make your own rules on it" ignoring public sentiment?
The "public sentiment" issue is that a lot of people, laughably inaccurately, believe that Roe legalized abortion, when it did not such thing. It was already legal in several states at the time.
And?
"Yet, he still is steadfast that the court should disregard public sentiment."
Unless "public sentiment" has been codified in law that is not something properly considered by a court.
Exactly.
Lady Liberty is depicted as wearing a blindfold (so that she doesn't favor one of the litigants over another). She should also be wearing earplugs, to avoid being swayed by the mob outside the courthouse expressing "public sentiment."
Oops. I meant Lady Justice.
The famous statue of Lady Justice over the Old Bailey is not blindfolded!
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CX85MN/the-gold-bronze-lady-justice-statue-with-sword-and-scales-above-the-CX85MN.jpg
News flash: We are not longer a colony of Great Britain.
Statue in front of Supreme Court is blindfolded.
Lots of claims about public sentiment. Not as much actual testing of what public sentiment actually is.
Anyone can claim the public supports anything.
Kagan is just a fan of the one way ratchet of decision. Left leaning decisions cannot be reversed!
Thing is, the “left-leaning decisions” in question are decisions that recognize human rights. And the reversals deny those rights. So at least we have one Supreme Court justice who is “just a fan” of human rights.
the right to kill unborn humans?
Not the right kind of humans.
You know what they say, right?
The most dangerous place in America for a black male is in the womb.
and as far as I can tell, no unborn black male has ever (been convicted) or murdering anyone....(not so sure about OJ)
The things I believe are Human Rights!
The things you believe are immoral monstrosities!
ALL HAIL THE STATE!
Wow, four responses from three of this site’s biggest losers. Could be better. But not bad at all.
You should pay attention to how the game is going. Leftists are the ones losing.
That makes four!
No, that's not it. The difference between overruling Plessy v. Ferguson (in Brown v. Board), and overruling Roe in Dobbs, is that the opponents of Plessy hadn't gone on a 50 year campaign to pack the court with justices who would overrule Plessy. Plessy was eventually overruled because the culture shifted to where Plessy was clearly no longer a representation of American values.
What smells bad here is the open packing of the court with justices who would overrule it, despite public opinion being heavily in the direction of keeping it. Even if you think Roe was wrongly decided, precedents should be overruled through natural evolution, not through court packing. If that natural evolution isn't happening, then I'll give conservatives the same advice they typically give me when I complain about the electoral college: Amend the Constitution.
And Bob, your biggest problem is that no matter what the Supreme Court does, the culture has left you far behind. Americans favor abortion rights. And gay marriage. You're trying to use the courts to enforce social conservatism in a country that is no longer socially conservative.
"court packing"
Let's use a phrase to mean a totally different thing! Then I win!
As for your last paragraph, maybe your side shouldn't have used the courts for big society change for 50 years. You made the weapon, my side is just using it finally.
As with many terms, court packing has multiple meanings based on its context. If Trump had had the opportunity to put five justices on the Supreme Court who would rule that he could be president for life, that would be court packing by any reasonable definition of the term.
As for my last paragraph, you're about to find out what happens when a conservative court attempts to foist deeply unpopular policies on people. As someone else pointed out above, in general, the difference between a liberal decision and a conservative one is that liberal decisions tend to expand rights. Well, people like having their rights expanded.
"court packing has multiple meanings based on its context."
No it does not.
The only definition at Merriam-Webster is"
"the act or practice of packing (see pack entry 3 sense 1) a court and especially the United States Supreme Court by increasing the number of judges or justices in an attempt to change the ideological makeup of the court"
Not filing vacancies a certain way.
"you're about to find out "
Ok, lets find out.
Merriam-Webster is not a legal treatise; if you check out what the legal scholars have to say you'll find increasing the number is not the only way to pack a court.
Geez, Krychek. You can’t stop making irrational arguments. If “winning political offices so that I can put judges on the court sympathetic to my point of view” is “packing the court”, then every president and senator since the beginning has been a court packer. You’ve taken all meaning out of the phrase. What is left then to describe what FDR tried to do?
During the Obama admin I argued court packing was only referring to something akin to FDR's move.
I was basically laughed at, and indeed lost that argument - the broader definition of the term decisively prevailed in discourse, and continues to do so.
Bob taking umbrage at this late date is silly.
Still waiting for you to list the other meanings rather than just say “there are other meanings.”
It would be helpful.
As you could tell from context if you cared to read up, It now means putting ramming a bunch of judges through quickly.
I don't think it's a very useful definition, but here we are.
Conservatives were arguing back in the 60s already that Democrats were "packing" the court with liberals. As Sarcastro points out, the same claim was made by conservatives over Obama's appointments. So it's a little late in the game now to argue that it only applies to expanding the number of justices.
The issue is not winning political offices so that I can put judges on the court sympathetic to my view. If I were president, and had five vacancies to fill, I could probably find five lawyers who would be willing to declare the electoral college unconstitutional. And the court packing would not lie in the fact that I appointed judges who share my dislike of the EC; the packing would lie in the fact that I went shopping specifically for judges that would give me a desired result in a specific case.
You want to play semantics, fine. I’ll go along. Trump packed the Court by doing exactly what Obama did. If Biden gets the opportunity to “pack” the court in the same manner, so be it.
Just don’t try to tell me adding four members is the same thing because it’s also called “packing” the court.
The semantics are a side show. Everyone knows what everyone else meant.
Now we're all off on a dumbass tangent.
The difference in packing and not packing is whether or not the President tries to change the structure of the court. When Trump (and for Sarcastro, Obama) were inaugurated they had no idea how many justices they’d be able to nominate, or even if they’d nominate any. Justices retired and died on their own timing, and they nominated replacements, which is their duty. Of course they nominated replacements consistent with their philosophy. That’s what every president has done forever and is not court packing.
If RBG had lived 6 more months would you still be screaming packing? That wasn’t Trump’s doing. Your definition and phrasing is absurd on its face.
Gallup and Pew are not legal entities, and they are not the American citizenry. We choose our laws by electing representatives.
If it were up to you, we would make our laws based on what polling organizations say, rather than the citizenry choosing elected representatives.
That makes her the female Clarence Thomas.
Next term ought to be a riot when PBJ joins the Court as the first Black ?woman? Justice.
EK's right! Mr. Plessy, Mr. Brown, go pick Mr. Ferguson's Cotton, after you've taken your kids to the Blacks Only School!
Roberts sunk the legitimacy of the court with is ACA ruling. The gay marriage and transgender rulings buried the legitimacy under tons of stone at the bottom of the ocean.
No one believes any of these clowns are apolitical.
So Kagan is a clinger?
Meesa be thinking mostly no.
These discussions of "legitimacy" are useless until they are based on clear definition of the term.
I don't much like the term myself. For example, I think the Justices were lawfully nominated and confirmed, and are entitled to exercise the powers of the Court.
OTOH, I think there is a tremendous amount of political hackery. I think the Court has been overtaken by RW radicalism, and was stacked that way by dishonest, if legal, methods, and I have little respect for its decisions.
So do I regard the Court as "legitimate," or not?
The Supreme Court is a political institution with judicial trappings. Been that way since at least Marbury.
"legitimacy" just depends on whose ox is being gored. Since 1960, its been conservative, now its leftists. One day it will go back.
I don’t think it’s as bad as you think it is, although in the context of Dobbs I understand why you think so. The other “controversial” decisions lately - EPA, the gun case, the school choice case - IMO were pretty reasonable decisions, although the praying coach decision was iffy. Dobbs is a shocker though.
In the other cases, the Court was dealing with issues that one may actually find in the Constitution without using a Ouija Board. Not so, Dobbs.
That pesky ninth amendment. Unenumerated rights are hard to define, so let's just pretend the amendment doesn't exist.
The praying coach case was an absurdity - based on an outright misrepresentation of the facts.
The school choice case was bad also, given the context of the schools in question.
In the gun case they ruled that a law that dates back to the Taft Administration was not rooted in history.
In EPA they sort of followed a made-up rule.
And even if you think these were 60-40 correct the pattern is disturbing. 40% wins some of the time. In fact, to do a silly calculation if you think that there should be only a 21.6% chance all three come out as they did.
IOW, you can't just talk about individual cases to get a picture of where the court is. You have to look at the pattern of decisions as well.
The school choice case was correct unless you expect the court to use an absurdly broad definition of "establishment". If the state gives me tuition funds (just like everyone else) and I use them to send my kids to a religious school there is no reasonable way to interpret that as the state establishing religion.
In the gun case they ruled that the right to bear arms is the right to actually bear them. They are a helluva lot closer to the constitution than the state of New York law was.
On the EPA case they said the unelected administrators can't capriciously make up laws and change them whenever they see fit. I don't think the founders anticipated that trying to live within the law in the new country would amount to Calvinball. Which is the way it's been for decades. Example -the FDA has been trying to drive the entire vaping industry out of business. Is that what Congress intended?
I'll give you the coach case. Close enough to the edge that I probably wouldn't have decided the way they did.
The school choice case was correct unless you expect the court to use an absurdly broad definition of "establishment". If the state gives me tuition funds (just like everyone else) and I use them to send my kids to a religious school there is no reasonable way to interpret that as the state establishing religion.
That all makes sense if you ignore context. These schools were in thinly populated areas likely to support only one school. So it's not like they were in a city where parents had several choices.
And they explicitly discriminated in hiring and admissions, and explicitly taught their version of Christian doctrine. So that looks to me like an Establishment problem.
Bevis, if the state gives you tuition funds, and you and many others are using them to send your kids to religious schools, can the state regulate what is being taught, i.e. can the government money come with government strings? Isn't this an example of the entanglement with religion that the Establishment Clause is trying to avoid? I don't see the denial of that situation as an unreasonable interpretation. The Lemon Test suffered a good deal of valid criticism, but at least it was an attempt to balance the two competing values.
Yes. I’m sure the one of the requirements be that schools are certified by the state. Here in Texas all schools, private and public, have to be certified by the state. If a school isn’t, you basically get no credit for attending.
Certification includes making sure there are a minimum number of school days in a year, making sure that the base required state curriculum is taught, making sure that teachers are qualified and so on. Amazingly, Texas hasn’t instituted a program like this, but if they did it would almost certainly only allow choice between certified schools.
Im guessing that every state, including Maine, is the same but I admit I don’t know.
If the parents are freely choosing, I don’t see how it’s establishment.
Maine doesn't give the parents cash. Maine still pays the schools. So the money comes with additional strings beyond just certification. Think, like, gov't contractor requirements: equal opportunity etc.
Well, the religious schools aren't equal opportunity, so they're not planning to accept the government money anyway.
I guess that's fine, make separation of Church and State essentially voluntary but desirable on the part of Churches. In some ways it's an even better separation... the State doesn't have to think about which organizations are religious or not, it can just design requirements that force religious organizations to exclude themselves.
Oh no, people who are not like you are able to exercise power in a government by the people. Sad day for self-styled elites.
That's a strange way to defend power being exercised by five or six unelected Justices with life terms.
The question of whether a policy is popular among the electorate, has precisely zero relevance to the question of whether that policy is required or permitted by the Constitution.
If that were not the case, and SCOTUS could amend the meaning of the Constitution based on popularity, then what would be the point of the real amendment process?
You would think highly educated liberal activists would understand such a simple thing.
Incidentally, issue polls are junk "But 70% of people think X!" and are barely relevant even to the question of whether a policy is popular among the electorate.
Yes, issue polls are garbage, without exception.
You should read Jack Balkin on the subject. Popular movements among the electorate (or a highly motivated minority) have always been a legitimate way to effect constitutional interpretation. Look at the recent changes in Second Amendment jurisprudence, or the push for gender equality under law. It's always been a part of our history and tradition, and in his view is completely legitimate. It doesn't always produce the change one wants or agrees with, but it's ridiculous to pretend it doesn't or shouldn't happen.
Isn't that the crux of the "originalism" vs "textualism" vs "living constitutionalism" discussion? Depending on how you sit on that subject, your understanding of the meaning of the Constitution can vary in logically consistent ways.
This post is hilarious, and telling, because it implicity assumes that the SCOTUS gets to set the terms of its own legitimacy, a premise that is absurd on its face.
The Supreme Court was polling badly but that was reversed by a 5-4 majority holding that everyone thinks the Supreme Court is awesome.
what exactly is her quantitative definition of legitimacy? If its 'preserving precedent' the leftwing justices certainly seem to have no problem repealing conservative precedent. Seems her actual definition is doing whatever the Tiktok crowd wants.
It was Mitch McConnell and the Republican Senate that compromised the legitimacy of SCOTUS with its disparate treatment of the Scalia and Ginsburg vacancies. Pure Calvinball.
And now Blackman is posting "neener neener" articles.
But hey, other than the Open Thread Thursdays, his gloating articles are great clickbait.
I'm very sad about this fact. But they work on me too (obviously).
I wish the conspirators weren't entirely ignoring the Jan 6 hearings. That would be fun times, and a break from Josh Blackspam.
We can always go further back. If the Democrats hadn’t rejected Robert Bork, Casey would have been decided the other way. Not to mention Lawrence v. Texas. Bork’s rejection resulted in Kennedy being nominated as a compromise, and the rest is history.
Was the Democrats’ rejection of Bork any fundamentally less fair than the Republicans’ handling of Garner?
Sorry, any fundamentally more fair.
Yes it was. They held a hearing and an up or down vote. The Democrats on the committee who were against Bork looked him in the eyes in public view and stated their opposition.
It could be pointed out that after Bork was rejected Reagan was willing to nominate someone acceptable to Democrats on the key social issues, but Obama wasn’t willing to nominate someone acceptable to Republicans. He wouldn’t play ball to enable the court to have regular capacity. Where Reagan bent, Obama wasn’t willing to take the Senate’s advice.
Huh?
You presume that there was a potential nominee who would have been acceptable to both Obama and McConnell.
Not true. If Garland was not acceptable to the GOP then no one Obama could nominate would have been. He wasn't going to nominate Gorsuch, after all.
McConnell made it clear that he wasn't going to let any nominee come to a vote. I suppose a strong conservative would have been an exception, but that wasn't happening.
Note, BTW, that Kennedy, who eventually was nominated to Powell's seat, was unanimously confirmed, less than a year before the 1988 election, by a Senate controlled by the Democrats.
Was Garland, from the GOP point of view, a less desirable nominee than Kennedy was from the Democratic POV?
I think the answer is a resounding yes. What Garland has done to the DOJ in just 18 months has proven how political he is. Such proclivities had to be known to the Republicans. Regardless of how much the media claimed Garland was a moderate.
That is a pretty ridiculous statement. But you are correct about jazz being hep.
Garland was the compromise. He's not a firebrand lefty.
The whole reason McConnell didn't let it come to a vote is that he was afraid Garland would win!
If Garland had gotten a vote and been voted down, and then Obama nominated another person and that person got voted down, and on and on until his term was up, that would have been fair. We would at least have a voting record that the public could evaluate.
You mean Garland?
Yes. It was vastly more fair. Here's why:
1. Bork was rejected on the merits. He was in fact a crackpot, as his writings reveal.
2. Bork got hearings and a vote. He was rejected through normal procedures.
By contrast:
1. There was no claim that Garland was any sort of extremist, or in any way a poor choice. I'm sure you are familiar with the praise he received from various GOP members, including suggestions that he would make an outstanding Justice.
2. He received no hearing, no vote.
I think to equate the two cases is ridiculous.
His "Hearing" was he got no Hearing, like your "Date" with a chick out of your league is when she turns you down for the "Date"
and not like Merrick's really distinguished himself as AG
1) The Democrats didn't reject Robert Bork; his defeat was bipartisan.
2) I assume you mean Garland, not Garner, and yes, it was. While Bork might have been treated unfairly in the sense of being the target of unfair criticism, he got a vote, and a majority of the Senate rejected him. McConnell prevented Garland from getting a vote even though the majority of the Senate supported him.
Bork was, legitimately, an extremist.
He lost his committee vote, but the Democrats who controlled the Senate allowed him a floor vote anyway, which he also lost, 58-42. Six Republicans voted against him, 2 Democrats voted for him. That's a lot of members of your own party to lose.
Blackman 2 days ago: The court should rule without care about public opinion!
Blackman yesterday: Obergefell is safe because it's so popular with the public!
Blackman today: Just to remind everyone, the court shouldn't care about public opinion!
Will he re-iterate tomorrow that we shouldn't worry about contraception and gay marriage because they're so popular with the public?
Is there any truth to any of this?
The Dobbs majority wrote that a factor in deciding whether to overturn a precedent is whether it has failed to gain acceptance over time and has consistently been rejected and resisted by a large segment of the populace.
After all, universally accepted precedents simply don’t give rise to new cases. The court might have to deal with some sort of restrictions on contraception. Maybe to minors. Maybe requirements to display more discretely. But it’s unlikely it will have to deal with a flat-out ban.
I'm not seeing that exact language in Dobbs' stare decisis discussion from a brief skim. I do think "how contested a decision is" can be connected from discussions on the quality and workability/applicability of Roe/Casey's reasoning in the Payne v. Tennessee stare decisis multifactor test.
"But it’s unlikely it will have to deal with a flat-out ban."
All it takes is one state, maybe even just one town or county. This will absolutely happen, probably sooner than later.
Considering the likely votes at conference, I wonder whether Chief Justice Roberts tried to persuade Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan to get a unanimous decision. In other words, does a concern for institutionalism ever cut in favor of a conservative outcome? I guess to answer the question is to give away the game.
Is an anti-abortion decision that discards settled law a conservative outcome?
It is today, at least from the perspective that anti-abortion absolutists hitched their political fortunes to the Republican Party a few decades ago and conservatives accepted the affiliation in an attempt to build an electoral coalition.
But is that the only, or a durable, answer?
Settled, as never having been challenged in 50 years? And in many instances being whittled down.
Roe was never settled and ACB even said so in her hearings.
Dobbs isn't even going to get a chance to sit down and take off its shoes.
He may have tried, but if so the effort was doomed to failure.
The best offer he could make was "uphold the MS law and we will get a unanimous decision declaring a right to abortion up to fifteen weeks, and affirming the right to privacy."
I don't know what the liberals' reaction would have been, but there is no way the conservatives would do that. Why would they, when they had the votes?
"Does a concern for institutionalism ever cut in favor of a conservative outcome?"
Sure. We just aren't likely to see a lot of those cases with a conservative supermajority. Replace, say, Thomas and Alito with 2 justices who are very skeptical about Heller over the next 5 years. A concern for institutionalism would cut in favor of letting Heller stand.
There are even plenty of conservatives who are very skeptical about Heller given its atextualism and debunked analysis of History and Tradition. (Another big flaw with the History and Tradition Test for those keeping track: our understanding of history changes constantly.)
I think the over / under on the remaining lifespan of Heller is 12 years.
Legitimacy is legitimately questioned when the People think that the real reason for a decision is not the law but the personal moral/religious beliefs of the justices, being given primacy over the law.
And that was all too evidently the case in Dobbs.
"The People?" Meaning you and your family and friends? I'd like to see some evidence that "The People," in the broad sense of the phrase, really think what you think they think.
Are you positing that Dobbs is a decision held as popular and legally well-situated?
If so, you may want to take it up with the OP.
Depending on who "The People" are, my guess is they do not believe what the poster claims they do. Any my opinion is, yes.
I guess that was RBG objections to Roe.
The assertion that strict textual formalism is less subjective & outcome driven than an interpretive mode that seeks Justice or a fair outcome, is absurd on its face. Recent history proves the point with fireworks. I understand why the mushy swamp of what is fair or just to whom & according to whom has been so rigorously avoided & derided. But what we really have is an old-fashioned power struggle over who is in charge of what the words mean. I don't think that text in a vacuum sealed chamber, & no relation to the actual issue being judged is very helpful. It can't be just a word game. The words are being pulled apart in the fights over who controls them &what they mean.
“ The words are being pulled apart in the fights over who controls them &what they mean.”
Aemon McGarret let me introduce to ConLaw.
The discipline is almost entirely about what words mean and in what context.
I don't think Justice Kagan was making a legal statement about precedent, but an observation about public perception of the court. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to refute her statement with a legal argument about precedent.
Just Noticed (not like I actually read these posts)
Kagan "Clings"!?!?!??!?
EK's a "Clinger"!?!?!?!?!?
can't wait for
Reverend Arthur/Jerry Sandusky has gone
10 YEARS, 1 MONTH, 12 DAYS
without buggering any young men,
*as far as we know, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
take on this one,
Frank
If something does not work, is stability a virtue? Outside of taking our $trillion and returning nothing of value, name one success of the law. All improvements have come from technology, none from the lawyer profession. Indeed it has obstructed improvements. Get rid of it, transfer the $trillion to research and development. One project would be to replace lawyers and judges with algorithms owned by the legislature, subject to tort liability for defectiveness.
Yes stability in the law is important. That’s another benefit of the recent EPA decision that was mostly ignored. The capriciousness of the agencies in regularly changing the rules based on changes in administration or just the flavor of the month makes accomplishing anything very difficult.
The Dobbs decision, right or wrong, had the same impact.
The virtue of the laborious amendment process is less stabilty per se and more stopping charismatic power hungry politicians from doing what they do best: stimulate the masses to grant them more power.
That hasn't worked out so well, historically. If times have changed and The People want the government to do something new, then most will agree, not just a bare majority, and will do so a few years down the road, not just right now when Mr. Suavetalker has you whipped into a frenzy.
"So this is how Liberty dies -- with thunderous applause." -- Padme, in a story George Lucas based on many real and tragic incidents from history ending democracy, or something like it.
I think they're effectively the same except that living constitutionalism is more honest about it.
Anyway, living constitutionalism seems like a strawman to me, especially with Breyer gone. Kagan certainly isn't a living constitutionalist, and I wouldn't describe Sotomayor that way either. I guess we'll see about Jackson, but I would be surprised. There hasn't been much vitality left for living constitutionalism in quite some time.
mad_kalak — Huge difference. Not on constraint, about that you may be right. But on public perception, it is a big difference. The history and tradition test pretends an objective standard. But if Bruen and Dobbs are examples, you do not even need historical expertise to see the Court hop-scotching through time, rejecting precedents from some eras wholesale, while fastening on favored eras which offer precedents they like. It is disgraceful reasoning, very publicly on display, and cannot fail to do damage.
Be fair, is the history and tradition test any different, functionally, in effect that is, than living constitutionalism? Which is to say, justices are policy outcome orientated?
The trouble is the history and tradition business is complete nonsense. It is manufactured out of whole cloth to produce conservative results.
You really don't address Doug's point at all.
If popular opinion doesn't matter, how can Blackman claim that public opinion will preserve Griswold, Obergfell, etc.?
He can't, logically.
Yes, minority public sentiment. For years now public polling has consistently shown 60%+ in favor of access to abortion services. That remains true today.
Firstly, by "protects people[s] right to freedom of religion" you likely mean (but do correct if I'm wrong) that people should be able to ignore whether a same-sex couple is married and discriminate against them in public accommodation and use their faith as the reason. But Obergefell was decided largely on privacy rights, the same right that Dobbs says isn't part of our history or tradition. So it would be expected that the court will eventually pick up all of the subsequent decisions that rest on the non-existent right to privacy and overturn them because they are "bad precedent" that should be "returned to the states." So there goes marriage equality (same-sex and interracial), contraception, and adult sexual freedoms in general (sodomy, etc). Now, if the court doesn't do this for "reasons," then it strengthens the perception that Dobbs was naked politics in action. If it's consistent in its application of law, then all the other privacy right based precedents must be overturned and returned to the people to re-litigate or legislate. If it is merely consistent in its application of political will, then it may pick and choose its battles based on perceived political gain. It won't take long to figure out which is controlling here since conservatives are already setting up court cases meant to give the USSC a choice at their next target.
Sure it can if it doesn't rise to the point where actions are filed in court.
To overrule Griswold you need first need to find a law to bring to court. Plenty of states passed laws to challenge Roe v. Wade or anticipate its demise. Who is trying to ban contraception in general? I could imagine some litigation about the "morning after" pill, which feels different (baby killing!) even though biologically it may not be much different from traditional hormonal contraceptives.
And since "history and tradition" can be invented out of whole cloth without any duty of accuracy, it pretty much means "do whatever you want for any reason you can come up with."
A thin reed given the RW fanaticism that is engulfing some of the states.
Write back when it happens.
OK, John, for now.
But Obergfell?
Thinking some more, I wouldn't be too surprised to find some state deciding to ban certain types of birth control, on the grounds that they are abortifacients, and going pretty far.
There are plenty of fanatics out there, and it only takes one state.
Some other legal fight encompassing the right to privacy could do it as well.
"do whatever you want for any reason you can come up with."
Indistinguishable from "Living Constitutionalism", as it were.
shawn_dude
July.22.2022 at 12:32 pm
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And since "history and tradition" can be invented out of whole cloth without any duty of accuracy, it pretty much means "do whatever you want for any reason you can come up with."
Shawn - you nailed the best description of Stevens dissent in Heller
Is there a duty of accuracy in sifting through emanations from penumbras to find hitherto hiding Constitutional rights? There could not have been, unless there were some objective, systematic way to choose the proper penumbras.
Then you will win politically.
"For years now public polling has consistently shown 60%+ in favor of access to abortion services."
60%+ in favor of some access to abortion. Not for abortion on demand right up to labor.
If you go significantly past a point that would allow the law at issue in Dobbs, that support falls off rapidly.
If it resolves to which ideas are better and more popular, conservatives are in trouble.
Let time and the culture war -- science, education, tolerance, reason, modernity, inclusiveness, progress, diversity, modern and successful communities, and our strongest research and teaching facilities vs. racism, superstition-based prudishness, old-timey patriarchy, bigotry toward gays, white nationalist-based immigration positions, depleted rural and southern communities, and backwater religious schooling -- sift this.
May the better ideas continue to win in modern, improving America.
If a state legislature criminalized contraceptive methods based on a mistaken belief that they acted as abortifacients, lower federal courts would be obliged to invalidate the statute based on Griswold and its progeny. The danger is that the state, like Mississippi in Dobbs, would seek certiorari on narrow grounds and then if cert is granted, ask SCOTUS to overrule long established precedent.
I don't for a moment trust Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Bear It to act in good faith.
"Thinking some more, I wouldn't be too surprised to find some state deciding to ban certain types of birth control, on the grounds that they are abortifacients, and going pretty far."
Get back to us when it happens.
We already see NY ignoring SCOTUS decisions on gun control right after they came down, so I feel concerns on the Right are far more valid than concerns from the Left.
No one is "forced" to comply with public accommodation laws. Many don't even have penalty provisions, and civil disobedience is always an option.
Don't forget, Jack Phillips never baked the damn cake.
The trouble is that "law office history" is inaccurate, so it ends up supporting whatever the law office historian wants.
What do you think of prosecuting 10% of common law crime, around 15 million? What do you think of prosecuting none of the 100 million internet crimes? That stability OK.
These vile skanks are a catastrophe to our nation.
Why is paper money not legal tender?
That wasn't what Roe stood for, so this is a strawman.
Oh yes, nothing at all like the 1619 Project, which is so not a made-up misread of historical events.
(Pounding the table with the raw assertion that "law office history" is inaccurate isn't an argument, it's just argumentative.)
Not at all different. Living constitutionalism is looking at the way things are today and deciding that obsoletes what is often actually written in this Constitution, or its legal precedents (AKA somehow capital punishment is unconstitutional even though the text explicitly mentions it.)
History and tradition identify things in the past and test them against what the text actually says. I get that some people think you can cherry pick that history, but as Alito points out critiquing the Dobbs dissent, either you can find actual examples of legalized abortion or you can't (including lame subsequent attempts).
With regard to Bruen, Thomas doesn't deny that there are identifiable historical cases or jurisdictions limiting the right to bear arms, but in historical context (the preponderance of the evidence) they are exceptional and not the norm. Which matters because, as the Court's reasoning first stated in Heller says, the right to keep and bear arms can be reasonably limited based on particular situations, some mentioned but not fully articulated in that or subsequent opinions.
Most of your failed, tyrannical ideals are already starting to backfire. Why do you think Hispanics are leaving the Democrats in droves? Soon to be blacks too.
10% is not selective prosecution. It is the best they can do. The real purpose of prosecution is to give 3 lawyers a job, not to stop crime. Once they have full employment, they do not care about crime victimization. This is the biggest failure of the law, not keeping us safe despite all the money they get to do so.
It’s not public accommodation. It’s a commission. The fact you don’t understand the difference disqualifies you from commenting further.
The baker served the couple dutiful when they came in to buy something off the shelf.
They stink. They care about procedure and jobs. They protect, privilege, and empower the client, the vicious criminal.
No state did "the same" in the 2020 election as McConnell did with Garland.
So true. Popular policies always get enacted into law. After all, the US is a democracy, not a republic.
When the Supreme Court bases its decisions on the 1619 project get back to me.
Alito points out critiquing the Dobbs dissent, either you can find actual examples of legalized abortion or you can't
And since you can....
You are arguing with your straw man Living Constitutionalism creation, instead of what anyone is actually saying about proper methods of interpretation. And you are ignoring the real problems with the history and tradition method as laid out by Dobbs. If the history and tradition is based on beliefs and values the vast majority of Americans no longer hold, why should it be the sole determiner of unenumerated rights?
Breyer's dissent's account of the history is more compelling than Thomas's. That's one of the many problems with the History and Tradition Test: even if it were objective (it's not), it's not verifiable. We'd have to attach practically the entire history of the world as an appendix to the Constitution in order to understand what it means. That's pretty much the epitome of "unworkable."
Even Barrett's concurrence is like, well, this History and Tradition thing is pretty loosey-goosey.
And I say the WI Supreme Court, and WI Republicans generally are the Calvinball players.
And I note that, pretty much as always, the complaints about "favoring Democrats" are complaints about actions that make it easier to vote. There is no serious argument that dropboxes are less secure than mailboxes. It's just that they make voting more convenient. Republicans hate that, and not because of imaginary fraud.
So when someone says something is bad, your response is not to defend it, but to ipse dixit that something else is bad, and thus move the argument.
No. This here was bad. Admit that, and then maybe you can move on to talking about double standards and be wrong about that.
You are completely wrong about the WI Supreme Court. They said that all the 2020 votes were entirely legitimate.
Why? Because Trump (and Biden) agreed to those rules prior to the election. Elections happen according to the rules that are in place and agreed to. You don't get to revisit them after the fact. If Trump didn't like the rules, he could have objected to them before the election. His attempt to renege only after he lost is the Calvinball here.
all it'll take is 5-7% to turn the DemoKKKrats into a 21st Century Whigs Party
Big talk from the side of the culture war that has been losing big for more than a half-century, in a country that continues to turn against the pillars of the conservative agenda.
Good luck with reducing . . . I mean, pulling even with . . . I mean, reversing the tide of the culture war.
People who think the religious bigots are going to stop striving to bring legal damnation on gays don't understand religion or bigots.
The majority of Americans now recognize that making life miserable for gays is stupid and wrong, but the Mission From God squad will never lose the bigotry or the intensity, even as they dwindle in number and influence as America improves.
Wouldn't you prefer a court decision with some semblance of logic behind it protecting what you deem to be a "right"?
This is why conservatives have become so disaffected and even delusional. They know that in the long term (or in some cases, medium or short term) they are roadkill in America.
Maybe some of them will try to overwhelm some small foreign country, much like some misfits have tried to misappropriate New Hampshire (or is it Maine)?
Public accommodation laws are a violation of the right of free association
What a bizarre statement! Do you think that when someone opens a business, the purpose is to "associate" with the general public? That's pretty retarded.
If you want to have a business that's not open to the public, but is only available "by invitation," or to "members," you can absolutely do that, and you won't be subject to public accommodation laws. By all means, open a members-only cake shop and only bake cakes for gay blacks if that's what you want to do.
more like Ohio
NY changed its regime immediately to comply with the decision, and everything they've done since then also complies.
You're making things up again, Arnold.
Not to mention that rights might not be "deeply rooted" because the soil was unsuitable.
A wealthy white male majority "rooted" certain rights. Fine. But that doesn't mean nothing else should count, especially if it fits into some of the spaces left open by that group.
OK
All those things that were never ever going to happen, no way, Jose, seem to be staring to happen.
Days after the Supreme Court overturned the right to abortion, Michigan’s Republican candidates for governor were asked if it was also time to roll back constitutional protections for gay rights.
None of the five candidates came to the defense of same-sex marriage.
...
In Texas, Attorney General Ken Paxton said after the Roe reversal that he would be “willing and able” to defend at the Supreme Court any law criminalizing sodomy enacted by the Legislature. Before that, the Republican Party of Texas adopted a platform that calls homosexuality “an abnormal lifestyle choice.”
In Utah, the Republican president of the State Senate, Stuart Adams, said he would support his state’s joining with others to press the Supreme Court to reverse the right of same-sex couples to wed.
And just for fun, from the same article:
In Arizona, Kari Lake, a candidate for governor endorsed by Donald J. Trump, affirmed in a June 29 debate her support for a bill barring children from drag shows — the latest target of supercharged rhetoric on the right.
....
“They kicked God out of schools and welcomed the Drag Queens,” Ms. Lake said in a tweet last month. “They took down our Flag and replaced it with a rainbow.” And Republican leaders in the Arizona Legislature, denouncing “sexual perversion,” called for a law barring children from drag shows.
But a drag performer in Phoenix, Rick Stevens, accused Ms. Lake, who he said had been a friend for years, of hypocrisy. “I’ve performed for Kari’s birthday, I’ve performed in her home (with children present) and I’ve performed for her at some of the seediest bars in Phoenix,” he wrote on Instagram.
Mr. Stevens, who goes by the stage name Barbra Seville, posted photos of the two of them together — one with Ms. Lake next to him while he is dressed in drag, and another when he is in drag and wearing Halloween-style skull makeup while she poses alongside him dressed as Elvis.
Correction: The last two paragraphs are also from the NYT article.