The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Cato Institute Files Lawsuit Seeking Release of Report Used to Justify Trump's Anti-Muslim Travel Ban
The contents of the report may well prove the Trump Administration tried to deceive the courts.
In 2018, a closely divided 5-4 Supreme Court upheld Donald Trump's travel ban policy targeting residents of several Muslim-majority nations. In doing, so the Court relied in part on the notion that Trump's notorious campaign promise to institute a "Muslim ban" was not the real basis for the policy, or at least not the only one. Rather, the travel ban was also justified by a supposedly objective and thorough government study concluding that people from the nations covered by the ban may pose special security risks.
Unfortunately, the administration never released that study to the courts, essentially claiming that judges should trust the government's assurances, and defer to a study whose contents they were not allowed to see. The majority did just that, despite considerable evidence indicating that the study was little more than a flimsy smokescreen.
The Trump travel bans have since been revoked by Biden. But the study supposedly backing them still hasn't been released. Thus, we still don't definitively know whether and to what extent the Trump administration sought to deceive the courts about its contents and significance.
In a recently filed Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit, the Cato Institute - a prominent libertarian think tank - seeks to force the Biden administration Department of Homeland security to release the Trump travel ban report, after DHS previously refused to release it voluntarily. Cato immigration policy specialist David Bier describes the lawsuit and its potential significance:
A new lawsuit by the Cato Institute could answer the question of whether the Supreme Court was wrong to accept assertions from former President Trump that his 2017 travel ban was based on security concerns, not animus against Muslims. Despite rescinding the ban, President Biden has still refused to disclose documents that Trump told the Court were the basis of his decision to ban immigrants from certain majority Muslim countries…
In a 5–4 decision, the Court's majority found that the ban was based not on Trump's open animus against Muslims, but instead on a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report that supposedly detailed national security concerns. But the majority simply accepted this report as legitimate without ever seeing it. Indeed, DHS has allowed no one outside the Executive branch to see it.
After President Biden rescinded the ban—which he called "discriminatory"—I filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request on behalf of the Cato Institute for the DHS report. DHS ignored it, so now Cato is suing. It will be the first time Biden's DHS will have to either justify keeping the report a secret from the public or else release it. Even if DHS refuses to release the report, the court can order it to do so.
Given that DHS's new leadership labeled the ban "cruel" and "harmful," DHS should have been forthcoming with the report that purportedly supported it. But not so far. DHS initially claimed not to be able to find the report. Cato appealed that determination and won, which should have forced DHS officials to look again. They chose not to, so now they will face Cato in court….
Lest anyone forget, it was Trump who instigated the Muslim ban. It was Trump who, in his words, "morphed" it into a ban on select majority‐Muslim countries so he could blunt a constitutional challenge.
How did the Supreme Court ignore this back story and uphold the ban as constitutional? First, it adopted a laughably low bar, the so‐called "rational basis test" under which courts would have accepted nearly any justification except perhaps for the one Trump stated initially: "Islam hates us." And where did Trump find a suitable replacement for his initial justification? From the DHS report that the department still refuses to disclose….
The ban was purportedly "based on [the President's] findings—following a worldwide, multi‐agency review—that entry of the covered aliens would be detrimental to the national interest…."
But the Supreme Court never verified that the DHS report did any of this, and we have at least two very good reasons to doubt the claim's veracity. First, President Trump's proclamation identifying the banned countries lists the nine baseline criteria that DHS's report supposedly applied equally to every country. Under a neutral application of those criteria, however, dozens of other countries—including many non‐Muslim countries—should have failed.
Second, although the justices never saw the actual report, they did know that it was just 17 pages. Did DHS analyze the vetting systems of more than 200 countries in 17 pages across nine security metrics as the president claimed? It certainly did not. Yet the majority justices said that they it would not question DHS's "thoroughness" because "a simple page count offers little insight into the actual substance of the final report"—the very substance that DHS has sought to hide and Cato's lawsuit now seeks to uncover….
Even if the release of the report proves that the Trump Administration lied about its nature to the courts, that wouldn't necessarily mean that Trump v. Hawaii would have come out differently had the justices known the whole truth. The ultradeferential "rational basis" standard under which the majority evaluated the policy might well have led them to rule in favor of the administration anyway. The Court's reasoning was based less on trust in Trump than on an indefensible double standard under which immigration restrictions get far weaker judicial scrutiny than that applied to virtually any other type of government policy.
Still, a rationale based on blatant lies about the contents of a report that doesn't actually do what the government claims it does might potentially have been ruled insufficient even under rational basis. Revelation of mendacity on this scale might even lead at least some conservative justices to impose tougher standards of scrutiny in the future, at least in cases where there is evidence that the government is blatantly lying about its true motives, using national security concerns as a thinly veiled pretext for religious bigotry or some other unconstitutional purpose. In such situations, traditional rationales for deference based on executive branch expertise do not apply, because specialized expertise isn't the real reason for the policy.
And if the administration lawyers who litigated the case knew about the true nature of the report and deliberately misrepresented it in court, they might be subject to sanctions. Under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, "fraud" or "misrepresentation" by an "opposing party" can constitute grounds for granting the side that lost a case relief from the court's judgment (though I am not sure whether the losing parties to the travel ban litigation can get any relief at this point, given that the policy has been lifted).
Even if proof of the administration's mendacity would not lead to a different outcome in court, it is at least something the public should know about. I am no FOIA expert, and therefore cannot say whether Cato is likely to win the lawsuit. But DHS should release the travel ban report regardless. If the report includes classified national security information, they can redact that part. But, given its apparently short and perfunctory nature, it's highly unlikely that all or most of the report falls into that category, and neither the Trump nor Biden administration have ever claimed that it does.
NOTE: I am a Cato Institute adjunct scholar (an unpaid external affiliation).
UPDATE: Skeptics may wonder why the Biden DHS is resisting release of the report, if the contents are likely to prove embarrassing to Trump. There is no way to know for sure. But the most obvious possible reason is they do not want to set a precedent for releasing potentially awkward or embarrassing information from Biden's own administration. The Biden people may believe that risk outweighs any short-term political advantage that might be gained here. But if that's their concern, there is an obvious conflict here between the administration's interests and the public interest.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Welcome to Ilya Somin Friday here at Reason.
Hey, Ilya. 9/11.
9 ... 11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi4Z06IbSek
His routine is as repetitive and tiring as the good Reverend's.
"But the most obvious possible reason is they do not want to set a precedent for releasing potentially awkward or embarrassing information from Biden's own administration. The Biden people may believe that risk outweighs any short-term political advantage that might be gained here. But if that's their concern, there is an obvious conflict here between the administration's interests and the public interest."
This is just incorrect.
Look, I'd love to see the release of this as much as anyone. But the purpose of the executive is to protect the privileges of the executive. It's institutional.
Just like the Supreme Court and Congress are careful to protect their own privileges and prerogatives. The same is true as to each and every federal agency. But each does other things as well.
?? Congress has been failing hugely here. So much so that both the Executive and the Supreme Court do more legislating now than Congress.
Both sides in Congress have decided that preserving issues in order to stoke grievances is more politically efficient than solving them. It's very sad. The US is turning into a country of people addicted to anger.
I think you (Loki and Ilya) agree with each other.
tk,
I think those two *mostly* agree with each other. But Ilya is suggesting that Biden is acting (at least in part) because he does not want his successor to release awkward/embarrassing stuff about Biden's time in office. And that may, in fact, be true.
But Loki was saying that Biden's rationale might be, "I'm an institutionalist, and I oppose release of Trump's info because, historically, administrations don't release this sort of info about past administrations." (In other words, it's perfectly possible that Biden is acting with zero concerns about how this approach might also benefit him down-the-road.) So, I think there is real daylight between Loki and Ilya here.
I, personally, almost always tend to favor the public's right to know. I certainly hope Cato wins this legal battle. But, absent evidence of Biden's bad faith; I'm perfect willing to give his administration the benefit of the doubt re motives . . . even as I disagree with their position.
The thing is, this administration actually brags about stuff that would have caused most prior administrations to resign in embarrassment, so it's hard to imagine anything awkward/embarrassing they'd be afraid of getting out. Criminal, maybe, but what would embarrass them?
Yep. Ilya seems fixated on an assumption that governmental actors' sole motivation is to avoid "embarrassment," or to gain political advantage. Sure, those are sometimes reasons, but sometimes they actually believe in the institution they work for, and try to do the right thing.
That's true, but how is keeping this report from being made public the right thing?
The logic would be: these sorts of reports are generally kept secret. They're kept secret so that the analysis can be more honest, since we don't have to worry about political considerations.
Maybe that's the wrong approach (I tend to think so) but it's a very common approach, and not just in government. No one likes to operate under the assumption that everything they write is public.
"But the most obvious possible reason is they do not want to set a precedent for releasing potentially awkward or embarrassing information from Biden's own administration. “
No, the “most obvious possible reason” is that the report contains legitimate reasons for the travel ban, and that releasing a report suggesting that Trump was right would embarrass Biden for repealing the ban.
What next? Pacifists get to get their hands on intelligence and military memoranda so they can establish in court that the government officials were deceiving the enemy?
Deceipt is a normal tactic in foreign affairs and military matters. Civilian courts don’t get to rule that radio traffic tending to suggest the existence of a First Army planning to invade France via Calais with the Normandy invasion being a mere low-key diversionary tactic yhat can be safely ignored by the Nazis, somehow represents some sort of fraud punishable by the courts because it might have deceived Americans as well.
I mean, if the radio traffic was cited by the government as evidence in court, then yes, they do.
I was sort of speaking generally in response to a general claim. But this is a FOIA lawsuit, not anything about fraud or punishment.
How does releasing the report damage national security, or the country in any other way, for that matter.
" There is no way to know for sure. But the most obvious possible reason is they do not want to set a precedent for releasing potentially awkward or embarrassing information from Biden's own administration. "
Some partisan wingnuttery might have rubbed off your poorly chosen playmates and onto you, professor. Perhaps the administration believes release would constitute a bad policy judgment or be inconsistent with authority, unrelated to particular content. Perhaps the administration believes the content could hurt the United States if published.
Or maybe the Trump-friendly hayseeds at the Secret Service have deleted the information.
Artie "SUNY" Kirkland believes the Secret Service has the ability to disappear federal records from DHS, its parent department. Simply stunning.
He was making a snide remark about the Secret Service members deleting their own texts. But I'm sure he'll respond on his own.
The walls are closing in!
Ilya Somin has repeatedly made it clear that any restrictions on anyone entering the United States is unacceptable to him. His writings on immigration matters must be considered in this context. This post is nothing but weak concern trolling from an open borders extremist.
So it's perfectly fine with you if a presidential administration blatantly lies in federal court, and Prof. Somin has no right to express concern about it because he has written in favor of fewer restrictions to immigration. Brilliant!
"[Ilya] has written in favor of fewer restrictions to immigration"
Why the equivocation? Ilya has repeatedly made it clear that *any* limit on immigration whatsoever is unacceptable to him. Stop trying to muddy the waters.
That is not my understanding of what he has written. Perhaps you could supply an example where he has endorsed no limit on immigration whatsoever. But even if he did hold that position, it's still just misdirection to bring that up rather than engaging with the specific argument he made in this post.
Somin doesn't advocate unlimited, open immigration. He only opposes every proposed or actual limit on immigration.
it's still just misdirection. Engage the argument if you think it's so clearly biased.
Seems pretty clear to me. Ilya does not "Support open borders", he just opposes all possible restrictions.
I don't care whatever agenda you put in his head - address the argument made in the OP.
The "Argument" was laughable, at best, BS by a hack.
Still failed to address it!
Seems like a pretty good argument, what with it driving you to empty bluster.
Really? He opposes every proposed or actual limit? You mean if I were to name a limit, you could find a comment from him opposing it?
Laughable.
Ilya Somin is an open borders extremist.
Kleppe is a bigoted, ready-for-replacement clinger.
Why can't this blog attract a better class of audience?
You'd have to leave.
"Or maybe the Trump-friendly hayseeds at the Secret Service have deleted the information."
Not relevant to the topic and assumes facts not in evidence.
All Artie has is assumptions. He hasn't been proven correct yet, but maybe one day!
The facts do in fact be in evidence. The evidence being a letter to Congress from the DHS Inspector General.
"now they will face Cato in court"
I'm sure they are quite afraid.
halfway through 'president' biden's term and we're still obsessed with trump and talking about him far more. Guess Ilya and Co think Trump is still president even more than I do.
Because Biden is so pathetic that talking about him just feels sad.
Something interesting that most people don't recall about the Travel Ban: It was born on the campaign trail as reliable red meat to throw to the crowd, second only to promising Mexico would pay for the wall as an applause line. But the proposed action needed a justification so they said a ban was needed as a temporary measure to research and install new vetting measures for national security. This would require 8-9 months.
So Trump gets elected & announces his ban. Endless legal wrangling results. Over a year later some judge thinks to ask about the new security measures. How's that research going? Where are we on the installation timeline? The administration admitted they'd done nothing. Zilch. Nada.
Like everything Trump-related, it had been a complete fraud from the get-go.
Which is entirely irrelevant even if true, because (see below).
Nothing wrong with reminding people that Republicans generally and Trump fans in particular are deplorable bigots.
Pretty sure the court decided that Department of State has authority to issue visas or not issue visas. And that the court declined to seize that authority for themselves.
This is mostly because no foreign national on foreign soil has any rights protected by the US Constitution. (Just as Americans on US soil have no rights protected by the constitution of, say, Zimbabwe.) So courts have extremely limited justification to address anything relating to the issuance of travel visas.
Reports do not change this. Misrepresentation of facts to courts does not change this.
The only argument even close to useful is that choosing visitors based on religion establishes a state religion. It’s a poor argument. And since no religion was banned, it doesn’t fit the facts of the case.
Legal scholars on the other side of the argument look foolish (at best). Congrats on another opportunity to look foolish.
Also, it was a 90 day moratorium on visas. It would have expired about 1800 days ago. So this looks like obsession as well.
This was one of the cases where so-called legal scholars were advocating for courts to make one-time-only, unprecedented, exceptional rulings to effectively undo the result of the 2016 election. They were advocating for courts to whimsically usurp Executive Branch authority.
Such is their devotion to norms.
The Trump Administration eventually won in SCOTUS by a razor-thin margin, and only because the majority chose to accept an obviously pretextual rationale for the ban, and also accept on faith a DHS study that probably doesn't show what the Trump Administration claims it does. So for people who actually know law, a pretty close case and very possibly wrongly decided. But not for you. Because it involves Trump, clearly one side is right and the other side "looks foolish." TDS still holding strong with you.
The SIV program is just as racist. Although the fact an Iraqi man here on a visa attempted to assassinate George W Bush shows why Congress wanted draconian vetting of the citizens of the countries we slaughtered hundreds of thousands innocent people in.
You literally have nothing to say about the legal arguments.
SCOTUS decided against a de facto coup, with some judges voting to usurp power, but the majority voting not to.
Iirc initial travel ban exempted Christians and it was blatantly unconstitutional. The initial travel ban was an “own goal” because it forced Yates to resign and allowed Comey to exploit the chaos and orchestrate his coup attempt. Bottom line—Trump got a$$raped by McConnell and Ryan and Comey and boomer generals right up until February 2020 when he surrendered to the Taliban…and everyone knows what happened in March.
I literally have nothing to say about your "legal" arguments, because you are simply mischaracterizing both the majority opinion and the dissent in Trump v Hawaii. Maybe you could show where in the opinion the court decided that constitutional restrictions on government actions don't apply to issues of immigration. And maybe you could explain how enforcing constitutional restrictions on government actions constitutes a de facto coup.
There was only one constitutional restriction suggested: establishment of religion. I addressed that.
A coup accompanied by handwaving about constitutional restrictions is no less a coup.
The other arguments amounted to we can undo any decision we don't like by claiming "animus" without attempting to connect their "animus" logic to anything in the constitution because it obviously wouldn't apply when the people seeking visas have zero US constitutionally protected rights.
The US has "animus" toward foreign nationals on foreign soil all the time. Does Vladimir Putin have US Constitutional rights not to be the subject of US "animus"? Can courts undo our foreign policy on behalf of Putin?
You didn't address that restriction at all. You simply believe the Trump Administration's pretextual justifications, while ignoring the many many times Trump actually said he would institute a Muslim ban. And I'm not sure how you can type with a straight face that animus against a specific religion isn't connected to anything in the constitution. Again, it isn't the rights of the individuals in question, it's the actions and motives of the government.
The constitution doesn’t have a "motives" section. There aren't any restrictions in the constitution related to "motives" toward foreign nationals on foreign soil.
"You didn't address that restriction at all."
There’s nothing to address. The State Department and Executive Branch have decision-making authority on visitor visas. It’s not subject to your approval, nor mine. Nor the courts, except as the constitution restricts it — and the constitution leaves it almost completely unrestricted.
"There aren't any restrictions in the constitution related to "motives" toward foreign nationals on foreign soil."
If it's a government doing the acting, then there certainly is restrictions. SCOTUS has now decided that when actions concern immigration, the proper test is rational basis. But that's still a restriction.
Except we targeted innocent Muslims in the War on Terror—so it has to do with the fact we slaughtered innocent Muslims and not the fact they are Muslims.
You might want to consider the possibility, just for the sake of intellectual integrity, that the report actually did justify the ban, and that there's no Trump mendacity here to expose. And that the Biden administration doesn't want it released because it makes their rescinding the ban look bad, rather than making Trump look bad.
Oh, wait, the report actually demonstrating "that entry of the covered aliens would be detrimental to the national interest…" is unpossible, because aliens whose entry would be detrimental to the national interest is an empty set. Sorry, forgot that for a moment.
The thing is, Department of State has the sole discretion to decide "that entry of the covered aliens would be detrimental to the national interest…"
No report required.
How did an Iraqi assassin intent on murdering George W Bush enter the country with the travel ban during a pandemic in 9/2020??? That’s the report I want to see!!
Prof. Somin spent two paragraphs explaining why it is likely that the report does not justify the ban. You may not agree with his reasoning, but he did consider the case. And besides, if you actually believe that the report does justify the Trump ban and would make Biden look bad, you should be hoping that the suit succeeds and we get to see the report. Then we'll see what's what.
The people who decide policy decide what justifies policy.
Could you identify those paragraphs? I'm not finding them. Wait, I suppose you meant that he quoted Bier explaining it...
"But the Supreme Court never verified that the DHS report did any of this, and we have at least two very good reasons to doubt the claim's veracity. First, President Trump's proclamation identifying the banned countries lists the nine baseline criteria that DHS's report supposedly applied equally to every country. Under a neutral application of those criteria, however, dozens of other countries—including many non‐Muslim countries—should have failed.
Second, although the justices never saw the actual report, they did know that it was just 17 pages. Did DHS analyze the vetting systems of more than 200 countries in 17 pages across nine security metrics as the president claimed? It certainly did not. Yet the majority justices said that they it would not question DHS's "thoroughness" because "a simple page count offers little insight into the actual substance of the final report"—the very substance that DHS has sought to hide and Cato's lawsuit now seeks to uncover…."
" Under a neutral application of those criteria, however, dozens of other countries—including many non‐Muslim countries—should have failed."
So, reason one is that the Cato Institute's judgments concerning national security are superior to the DHS's. Well, maybe so, but I'm not sure I'd rate that as near certain.
And reason 2 doesn't persuade me, either; All the report has to do is list the countries in a chart how they stack up on each criterion. Easily done when you can eliminate most countries from consideration just on the basis of their actually cooperating with our immigration vetting process. (Which I recall was one of the criteria.)
"And besides, if you actually believe that the report does justify the Trump ban and would make Biden look bad, you should be hoping that the suit succeeds and we get to see the report."
I do! Did I say otherwise? I'm just reminding Ilya that it's not guaranteed the report will make Trump look bad. Not at all guaranteed.
Well, not guaranteed that it will make Trump look bad in the eyes of people who don't start out as open borders advocates or NeverTrumpers, anyway. I'm sure there's nothing it could say that wouldn't make Ilya think he looked bad.
Yes, those paragraphs. Sorry about that, it was actually Biers being quoted, not Somin. I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of reason 1. But with any luck the FOIA suit will succeed and we will see if the report indeed justifies the Trump administration's actions. If it really does, it's hard to see why they wouldn't have released it with any necessary redactions. As for the current administration, I've stopped trying guess why they do anything.
You might want to consider the possibility, just for the sake of intellectual integrity,
OK. and you might want to consider that it' pretty stupid of the court to accept the alleged findings of the report without reading (all seventeen! pages of) it.
You think maybe they were in the bag for Trump?
No, actually, I figure they didn't think they had to inquire very deeply because non-citizens on foreign territory don't have any US constitutional rights, so the appropriate level of scrutiny was "credulous deference".
First, if the Court wanted to ignore the report as irrelevant, I guess they could have done so. But once they mention it it does seem that they might have troubled themselves to read it. "Credulous deference" to a litigant's claims does not seem to me to be an appropriate stance for a court.
Second, the question of whether foreigners have constitutional rights is a red herring. The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from favoring one religion over another. This is not a matter of individual rights, but of a restriction on government action.
It is quite clear that the policy's purpose was to exclude Muslims, and that it was implemented in a way that accomplished this.
No, it's not a red herring. Because they don't have constitutional rights to violate, the absolute lowest level of scrutiny was appropriate, since nobody's constitutional rights were implicated.
Having said that, we come to the second issue, which is that it wasn't an anti-Muslim ban. Manifestly wasn't. It banned entry from 8 countries. Only 6 were majority Muslim, and the majority of Muslims live in countries that weren't subject to the ban.
And so the 1st amendment wasn't implicated, because the Court found the ban simply was not on the basis of religion.
Because they don't have constitutional rights to violate, the absolute lowest level of scrutiny was appropriate, since nobody's constitutional rights were implicated.
So you think that an absolute ban on Muslims - other than US citizens - entering the US would be perfectly Constitutional? I think you're full of shit.
No, that's not it.
Look, if you're a non-citizen outside US territory, (And I'd count Guantanamo as US territory for this purpose!) you have no US constitutional rights.
But the 1st amendment restricts Congress from enacting certain sorts of legislation, (And by extension binds the Executive, who is theoretically effectuating such legislation in most of the things he's doing.) irrespective of who or what the legislation impacts. It's worded differently from the other amendments in that regard.
So an actual ban on entry by non-citizen "Muslims", as such, would be a violation of the 1st amendment by Congress, but not a violation of their rights. Whereas if it acted on people who were actually subject to US jurisdiction, it would be both.
Not everything Congress is forbidden to do is a rights violation.
In any event, the ban in question wasn't a ban of "Muslims", as was made clear by multiple features:
1) Only 6 of the 8 countries were majority Muslim.
2) Most Muslims lived outside those countries.
3) If you lived in one of those countries it applied to you regardless of your religion.
#3 was actually a bit of a problem, because a couple of those countries had ongoing anti-Christian genocides. (Technically anti-non-Muslim, but they'd already gotten rid of all their Jews.) And the necessity of making the ban be irrespective of religion in order to get it upheld made it difficult to make an exception for refugees from that genocide.
Not everything Congress is forbidden to do is a rights violation.
Weird term: the Bill of Rights.
Not everything Congress is forbidden to do is a rights violation.
Weird term: the Bill of Rights.
That would be a brilliant retort...if this was a grade school playground.
But of course it's a Trump thing so stop applying logic.
Does Ilya ever respond to his critics? It seems like he just posts nonsense and flees. Prof. Bernstein meets his critics head on. Perhaps because his ideas are frequently defensible.
"Does Ilya ever respond to his critics?"
Not that I recall and I've been here for 20 years.
EV and DB respectfully engage. Orin Kerr also when he used to regular post. EV occasionally will respectfully admonish occasionally.
Post sometimes responds. Something no one wants.
EV routinely replies...it's one of the best aspects to his threads, IMO. It's my sense that DB replies to about 1/3 of 1% (3 out of every thousand) comments or questions.
Of course, .3% is, literally, infinitely more of a response rate than zero percent. ????
" EV and DB respectfully engage. "
Prof. Volokh censors his critics. Repeatedly. Hypocritically. In a partisan, viewpoint-driven manner.
But it's liberal-libertarian mainstreamers he muzzles, so that is "respectful engagement" to clingers.
Given the personal and hateful tone of the comments, that seems a pretty bad idea.
Well he could stop writing dumb stuff thats always an option. Hey you could do the same.,
Not all dumb stuff engenders the personal rage this does. Almost as though your issue with it is something more than that you simply disagree with it.
Given the personal and hateful tone of the comments, that seems a pretty bad idea.
So you're not just a lying sack of shit, you're also a pathetic drama queen.
Its a quadrillon times better rate, gotta ask Post, he's the math whiz.
Don't trust the gubmint. Except if its about Mooslims. Then you gotta trust the gubmint, what are you, some kinda cummynist?
Common sense would tell you that admitting unvetted immigrants from a Muslim country would end up admitting some determined terrorists.
You could take the word "Muslim" out of that sentence, and it's still true. That's kind of the point.
You could take the word "Muslim" out of that sentence, and it's still true. That's kind of the point.
The "common sense" thing is based on an observation that a lot of Muslims don't like America, and an observation that Muslim terrorists can find financing and other support, yielding an ambient supply of Muslim terrorists who would come if they were allowed to.
That's different from say Sikh terrorists, who exist, but there's not much pressure for them to come to America and kill us. They're focused on issues elsewhere. So if we were to allow in a random collection of 10,000 unvetted Sikh immigrants, we'd likely end up with some criminals, but no terrorists. On the other hand, 10,000 unvetted immigrants from Yemen would likely contain a few terrorists.
Statistically speaking, though, the actual terrorist problem with Muslim immigrants isn't the immigrants themselves. It's their kids.
Who we apparently do a spectacularly bad job of assimilating.
Not actually very bad, statistically speaking.
Worse than the immigrants themselves.
How do you explain the Iraqi assassin that came in when Trump was president??
How do you explain the Iraqi assassin that came in when Trump was president??
The boxer? He doesn't seem a terrorist.
Not sure what you're saying here. Trump's "Muslim ban" eventually dropped Iraq, and vetting of immigrants has been a weakness for a long time. It might or might not have importantly improved under Trump.
Who says they are unvetted?
Because that was one of the actual criteria that the travel ban was based on? Being either unable or untrustworthy to assist us in vetting applicants.
It's not like we have CIA agents show up and investigate visa applicants. We ask local authorities to share information with us. If the local authorities can't be relied on, you can't vet visa applicants, you can only pretend you're vetting them.
Read the dissent.
And use your brain. You don't think it was motivated by animus to Muslims? Really?
Do you even know what Trump said about it?
Or is this another chapter of "Trump Can Do No Wrong?"
You don't think it was motivated by animus to Muslims? Really?
I think it was motivated by fear of Muslim terrorists.
That's a little different from animus.
See he doesn't think so you need to reword that
"Read the dissent."
Oh, you mean, read the side that lost? That's a strange way of getting at the merits.
Oh, you mean, read the side that lost? That's a strange way of getting at the merits.
Well, if you assume the majority is always automatically correct (and I bet there are cases where you don't think that), you're right. But often it's worthwhile to see what the other side's arguments are before leaping to that conclusion.
You're not interested, of course. The majority ruled the way you wanted, so they must be right.
Well, my default position is that the losing side probably had the worse legal case. Not always, of course, but usually. Now if you'd said, "Read <a href="https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-965_h315.pdf"the whole decision, and compare the dissent to the majority opinion." I might have been less snarky. But just directing me to the dissent?
So, I'm refreshing my memory of the decision.
First, just to look at the list of countries, if one has been following the news at all, would give you the impression of a facially legitimate exercise. Are any of those countries you'd be inclined to trust? North Korea, maybe? The fact that this list was largely the same as a list compiled during the Obama administration might mean something to you, too; Did you think Obama was acting out of anti-Muslim animus?
Second, the Court goes into all the reasons to believe this sort of thing is within a President's statutory powers, including past practice. And I think they make a pretty good case.
Now, the dissent? It basically comes down to, "If we think a particular President has bad motives, he can't do something another President lacking such motives WOULD be able to do.", and "We don't think this policy is ideal."
As I observed at the time, it amounted to claiming that Trump was partially impeached, stripped of some of the powers of his office, on account of being a bad man. Not only can't he do things that are themselves proven to result from animus, the whole area gets stripped from his authority.
I didn't find it persuasive then, I don't find it persuasive now.
Here's the fixed link.
The fact that this list was largely the same as a list compiled during the Obama administration might mean something to you, too
Another piece of RW propaganda you swallow.
Obama's list was not intended as a ban.
It's "right wing propaganda" that two lists identifying countries that fail to meet minimal US standards are almost identical, when they are, in fact, almost identical?
You seem to be arguing some other theory entirely. How about you actually make your claim, rather than arguing with something no one else has said?
"Obama's list was not intended as a ban."
Yeah, Obama was cool with issuing visas to people who couldn't actually be vetted, Trump wasn't. They did both agree about which countries you couldn't vet people from, only one of them actually cared.
Given that the vast majority of Muslims and Islam itself hold animus towards liberty, atheists, and gays, there seems to be a reasonable rational basis for “animus to Muslims” on the part of Americans.
That was the point of the order.
The designated countries had little or no proper documentation available for vetting.
As a "Muslim ban" it was wildly ineffective, because it did not cover all Muslim majority countries, just the ones with poor administration.
And it wasted designations on countries that were not Muslim majority, but had poor administration.
The worst part, I think, is that in order to avoid the charge of religious discrimination, we had to also block Christians fleeing active genocides. (Jews not so much, because those countries had finished THAT part of their genocide...) It would have been religious discrimination to admit the people being targeted for death, and not the people targeting them, you see.
So a Muslim ban that wasn't needs investigated because?
And saying go peaceful and protest is inciting a riot?
Yea sure
And a ban on travel from majority Muslim countries would be unconstitutional… why?