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More on the National Constitution Center "Restoring the Guardrails of Democracy" Project
Video of presentations by the leaders of the Conservative, Libertarian, and Progressive Teams. Plus, my thoughts on a comparison of the three reports by Progressive Team leader Ned Foley.
Earlier this week, National Constitution Center published its "Restoring the Guardrails of Democracy" project. I am a coauthor of the Team Libertarian report, along with team leader Clark Neily of the Cato Institute, and Walter Olson (also of Cato). There is also a Team Conservative report (written by team leader Sarah Isgur, David French, and Jonah Goldberg, all of The Dispatch), and a Team Progressive report (coauthored by prominent election law scholars Edward "Ned" Foley and Franita Tolson). I offered some thoughts on the similarities and differences between the three reports here.
Since then the NCC has posted a video of an online event where the three team leaders discussed their respective reports with each other and NCC President Jeffrey Rosen.
It includes a lot of interesting material on points of agreement and disagreement. Most notably, it turns out that all three groups agree on the need to fix the Electoral Count Act, in ways outlined most fully in the Progressive report, but also discussed in ours. The conservative report did not cover this topic, but team leader Sarah Isgur notes their agreement in response to questions in the video event. On this issue, there is fairly broad cross-ideological agreement among experts that goes far beyond the authors of the three reports. This may be the one flaw of American democracy that has a simple and obvious legislative fix that can be implemented swiftly.
In a post at the Election Law blog, Team Progressive leader Ned Foley has some additional thoughts on similarities and differences between the reports:
The three reports produced separately by these teams had some significant overlap. As was noted at the town hall discussion of these reports, the recording of which is available, all three teams embraced the urgent necessity of Electoral Count Act reform.
More broadly, the reports collectively diagnosed three distinct threats to democracy: election subversion, polarization, and disinformation. There was consensus on the need for structural reforms to ameliorate the problem of polarization, although less consensus on what specific structural reforms would be best for this purpose. By contrast, there was definite disagreement on how to handle the problem of disinformation, with one report willing to consider the possibility of carefully crafted criminal prohibitions against deliberately orchestrated falsehoods designed to negate valid electoral outcomes, while another report specifically rejected anything along those lines….
One additional point of agreement was the need for improved civics education.
I agree with Foley's excellent summary above, except for one point. The libertarian report doesn't cover the issue of civics education, unlike the other two which both suggest reforms they hope will improve it. Speaking purely for myself (not the entire libertarian team), I doubt that much progress can be achieved on this front, for reasons discussed in detail in Chapter 7 of my book Democracy and Political Ignorance. Instead, Part II of the Libertarian report suggests we can more effectively mitigate the dangers of political ignorance and misinformation by expanding opportunities for people to "vote with their feet." Foot voting creates better incentives than ballot box voting for people to seek out relevant information and use it wisely. I suppose you can probably guess who was the primary author of Part II.
Foley's post includes some skepticism about the foot voting section of our report:
Even more broadly, some of the reports addressed potential reforms beyond those relating to the conduct of elections. The relationship of Congress to the presidency was a matter for consideration, and also the idea that in a federalist system changes might be made to make it easier for citizens to vote with their feet, so to speak, if they didn't like the laws or policies in the state where they currently reside. (I confess personally to some skepticism about the practical realism of this "foot voting" idea for many citizens: it's not so easy to switch jobs for some citizens, and spouses will live together even if one of them would prefer to relocate elsewhere.)
This problem of moving costs is a real one. But, as the Libertarian Report points out, it is greatly reduced if people are empowered to vote with their feet in the private sector (as with school vouchers), and between local governments, as well as between states. The former two types of foot voting often don't require switching jobs, or - in the case of private-sector options - even changing residences. In addition, as we also note in our report, seeking better job opportunities is itself often a form of foot voting, as variations in public policy often have an impact on the quantity and quality of jobs available in a given area. Moreover, moving costs have to be weighed against the extreme difficulty of having an impact on the policies you live under through ballot-box voting or other forms of political "voice," which for most people amounts to only a infinitesimally small likelihood of success. I cover moving costs and their significance for foot voting in greater detail in my book Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration and Political Freedom.
The issue of spouses and other family members constraining each others' foot voting options is another topic I cover in the book. As I point out there, family members have much more chance of influencing each other's decisions than they do of using voting or lobbying to effectively change government policy. Moreover, people tend to marry those with similar values and preferences, which makes reaching agreement easier. Given a wide range of foot-voting options, there's a good chance that a married couple can find one that fits both their needs relatively well. Success is by no means certain, and disagreements about where to live sometimes even lead to divorce. But, on the whole, family decisions on foot voting offer most people far better odds of a happy outcome over which they have real leverage than ballot-box voting does. And, in a worst-case scenario, divorcing an incompatible spouse is usually more feasible than ridding yourself of an incompatible government - unless you can divorce the latter through foot voting!
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I'm on board for foot voting, but I wish you'd omitted that, and spent the space on something else. The topic was "guardrails of democracy", and foot voting is not such a guardrail. It's more like moving to a flat area because you can't GET guardrails.
To the extent foot voting results in voter sorting, if anything it removes those guardrails.
A real guard rail I was surprised you didn't discuss, was reopening our democracy to viable third parties. I think one of the reasons things have gotten as ugly as they have, is that the 'reforms' put in place after the 70's to shut down third parties have left the 'major' parties in a position where they no longer have to fear being displaced.
Rather than having to be positively liked, they now find it sufficient to be loathed less than the opposing 'major' party. We've been caught in something of a downward spiral ever since.
"A real guard rail I was surprised you didn't discuss, was reopening our democracy to viable third parties."
Sez the guy who regularly points his fingers at RINOs.
It's OK for OTHER political parties to allow "viable third parties" but woe to those who internally bash THE ONLY TRUE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
No inconsistency. RINOs are basically pulling a bait and switch on the voters; They pretend to be conservative Republicans, and then govern as moderate Democrats. If they'd run as moderate Democrats, I'd have no complaint about them at all.
See, I want the party labels to actually be informative. Since rational ignorance means most people are hardly going to get beyond the party label, at least make it MEAN something!
Actually, freeing up our voting system again, so that 3rd parties could be viable, might resolve the whole RINO (And lesser DINO) problem, by providing more Names you could viably run under.
Great, Bellmore! Be informative. Tell me how to identify a conservative. But please note, if your definition does not encompass your own advocacy, or if it fails to connect with long-customary conservative traditions, I am just going to laugh at you. Try not to get a panic attack figuring out how to do that.
These fake scholars are shameless scammers and gaslighters.
No, somebody like, say, Romney would not govern as a moderate Democrat.
The Trump/social side of the Republican Party has gotten as far out there as the progressive Democrats. Both extremes want to control us way too much. Both extremes want to shut off the 1st amendment to their political opponents.
The RINOS and the moderate Democrats aren’t the problem.
He not only would, as Governor, he did.
He’s a moderate democrat to you because you’re an extreme conservative with no compromise in you.
How was he a Democrat? Romneycare? The people of the state wanted it. Remember them?
And quite a bit of it was passed over his veto.
But no nuance allowed in the land of the extreme. It’s either all or nothing. My way or the highway. That attitude is the primary cause of the current shitshow that passes as our government.
Non sequitur. The fact that a particular policy is popular does not make it conservative.
So if the people want it the head of the government should ignore them because he might disagree philosophically? Government by the people for the people except wholeness the people disagree with your conservative values? Why even bother with elections? Let’s just install a conservative monarchy. Oh, forgot, that’s what roughly half of Republicans want to do now.
It’s striking to see day after day people who live in an alternate reality.
Democrats have been filling their diapers demanding King Biden do something to save their child sacrifices and baby murdering.
I’m not a Democrat, but whatever. I’ve criticized Biden plenty on hear. He’s awful.
And speaking of alternate realities, roughly half of the Republican Party has bought off on Trump’s narcissistic election fantasy. Any Republican that tries to assert truth is shunned. Trump has poisoned your party and you can’t quit lapping it up.
I saw it with my own eyes. You're gaslighting, which is surprising since you can't seem to get your tongue off the boots of the Federals.
LOL, bevis the Bolshevik!
Some on here really aren't too bright.
First, I have no idea who elected you to decide what a Republican (or Democrat) is. There's no screening test one has to pass to be one. I suppose the GOP could implement some sort of oath in which one had to swear to only take certain positions in order to be one, but it hasn't done so. So you declaring that someone isn't a conservative enough to be a Republican because you "want the party labels to be informative" doesn't make it so.
Second, there are no such people doing what you claim.
OK, if we're going to talk about "election subversion," how can anyone justify a system where the ballot is rigged to exclude the names of candidates the two dominant parties don't like? What possible principle can justify such fraudulent and vote-suppressive behavior?
I remember hearing an interview with Robert Mugabe about how only one party could have power in his country, and he explained that people could channel their dissent *within* the ruling party, so there was no need for other parties. Just like discontented voters can channel their discontent into the primary process of one of the duopoly parties.
Cato is representing the libertarians? The pro war, pro lockdown group? Great. Nothing says freedom like cheerleading the conversion of a free country into a dictatorship run by unchecked executive authority.
They had David French and Jonah Goldberg representing the Conservatives. lol
No wonder they were all in general agreement.
The three reports are written by establishmentarian intellectuals who are unified in their desire to preserve an all overly powerful and complex state and who view Americans as stupid and uninformed (Somin has written a book to that effect).
When they talk about "guardrails of democracy", they mean "cattle chutes for the masses".
And even if we're talking about the constitutional arrangements we have, these people have no interest in returning us to the kind of constitutional government the US was founded on. The authors, all three of them lawyers, are completely out of their depth when it comes to the subject matter they tackle, namely what ails our nation and democracy, which requires wide ranging expertise from economics and social science to statistic and psychology. Oh the irony that one of them actually wrote a book on "ignorance".
What a mockery of libertarianism. What a disgrace.
That is correct, Sir. These Ivy indoctrinated dipshits also have no self awareness. They are more provincial than the residents of the most remote holler in Appalachia. They are idiots. They did not address the real reason for Trumpism. Them.
It's funny that we only need to talk about "guardrails" and "polarization" when the left goes apeshit over not getting what they want.
They are gaslightin'.
By contrast, there was definite disagreement on how to handle the problem of disinformation, with one report willing to consider the possibility of carefully crafted criminal prohibitions against deliberately orchestrated falsehoods designed to negate valid electoral outcomes, . . .
The solution to that problem is to avoid any attempt to decide what is correct election information. Leave that to the People to decide on their own.
But require strict compliance with certified election results from all sworn office holders, once ballots have been officially counted, and the count accepted by the government. Make those officials, and only those officials, plus any challengers for elected office, abide by the official election result in both word and deed—whether they agree the result is correct, or inwardly disagree and think it mistaken. Make them do that in obedience to their oath to defend the Constitution.
Once the election process is at an end, anyone in a position of government power who continues to deny the result does so as a rival of the American People. That initiates a challenge to the People's sovereignty, by a member of their government. Everyone in that government ought to be obedient to the sovereign will, and never openly defy it. Make such defiance a crime akin to treason, which, historically speaking, it is.
Of course, America's constitution has its own, wisely restrictive definition of treason. The offense I suggest here should not be thought of in those terms. Instead it should be understood in terms of similarity to the older concept of high treason, which amounted to any act of disloyalty to the sovereign, by a subject who had sworn an oath to the sovereign.
Thus, instead of the unavoidably contestable facts of an election being the standard, make fealty to the oath the standard. Accept the privilege of office in the U.S., take the oath, and with it, you take responsibility to defend the People's will, as expressed in a completed election, against all challenges.
The question whether elections are fairly decided, or accurately counted, should never be a question for governments to decide anyway. Governments supply the ministerial effort required to conduct elections, on behalf of the People's interests in accurate outcomes. It is the People themselves who must be the judges of the question of accuracy, and of governments' performance in assuring it. Government officials should not be made judges in their own cases, nor tolerated if they pretend to be.
So while sworn official members of government must abide strictly by final election results, unsworn members of the joint sovereignty must remain free at all times to speak their minds, and to criticize government's conduct of elections, including allegations that election results were mistaken or fraudulent. Stop trying to make unresolvable controversies do work they never can do, and abide instead by a clear distinction without ambiguity—whether the person protesting does so as a member of the joint sovereignty, or whether that person, acting as a sworn supporter of election results, does so in violation of his oath, and in defiance of the joint popular sovereign he swore to defend.
Appropriate legislation along those lines should settle the question.
"Once the election process is at an end, anyone in a position of government power who continues to deny the result does so as a rival of the American People."
I think we need to distinguish between fighting the outcome of the election, and just claiming that it was rigged. There comes a point in the process where you have to stop contesting the outcome, that does not require that you admit things were done honestly. Just that the process is complete.
No, continuing to say the election was dishonest is tantamount to contesting it.
And, conversely, conceding the election is tantamount to saying it was legitimate.
You've already been challenged about your usage of "tantamount", but I'll go one step further...
As far as I'm concerned, Trump's greatest offense against the body politic is his continued (mis)representation that once deadlines have passed, his fraud grievances maintain legal merit. THAT is simply preposterous and unsupported in any law. So yes, that rumor that he himself helped fan, that somehow a recent court challenge could overturn the presidential result and magically put him in the White House--that's insane.
For a presidential election, once the electors vote, that's it. Now certainly authentic dueling electors sending votes to Congress (as happened once) could muddy those waters. But there is no do-over of the electors casting their votes. Only the possible disqualification of some (faithless elector, for example) can possibly change that result, but not really.
So when you say "tantamount to contesting", it rings hollow. Certainly anyone (AKA Stacey Abrams) can run around saying an election was stolen. But continuing to rhetorically contest an election which has reached its conclusion, with no legal remedy to alter its result remaining, is like a tree falling in the forest. Willfully insisting it has any meaning, for political advantage, is no different than what the people engaging in that behavior are doing.
Alas, you're in should-land.
I agree with you, in should-land.
But in Is-land, I don't think it's proven to work like that.
Sarcastr0, I believe your use of 'tantamount' was the question; can you explain the points you're making?
Consider: We can say that the election of 1876 was dishonest, and that is not contesting the election of Rutherford B Hayes. We can say the 1960 election was dishonest, and that is not contesting the election of John Kennedy. We can say that the election of 2000 was dishonest, and that is not contesting the election of George W Bush. And in fact, there was dishonesty in all three examples.
Can you tell me what specifically you're agreeing to in 'should land'? I find myself in agreement with much of what MaddogEngineer wrote.
He's pretty much saying what I'm saying, too.
It's perfectly reasonable to say that the 2020 presidential election was corrupt, and possibly would have come out differently if it hadn't been. There were multiple violations of election laws, and some dodgy stuff that might not have been technically illegal, just dodgy, and if the vote had moved a total of 43K votes in 3 states, Trump would have won. So, no, you don't need to be mad to think that.
But after the EC had voted, there wasn't any way a do-over could happen. And not wanting to admit that drove Trump into the arms of legal conmen. That displays a very bad lack of judgement, at best. Criminal culpability, at worse, but the Democrats are deluding themselves about having proven THAT.
It isn't.
Oh, *we* can say anything.
I'm talking about the candidate in the election. If you say 'I concede, but the election was illegitimate.' You're not really conceding.
Maybe you should be considered to have conceded, but your supporters will not take it like that.
Sarcastr0, I would say that what comes out of the mouth of the candidate - 'I concede, but the election was illegitimate.' - is what matters here. The candidate conceded and stated that. It is over (except for the shouting by supporters).
Personally, I always thought that VP Gore in his concession speech back in 2000 was of that mind (concede, but not because he felt he lost). I give VP Gore credit for finally throwing in the towel and moving on (with his concession speech). Notably, he did not act as POTUS Trump is acting now.
But to my point: In each of my examples, there was documented dishonesty. The elections were not contested, ultimately (Gore played by the constitutional rules, to me. He made his objections during the interregnum period, which is when those issues are to be resolved) (And Ok, to be fair, with 1876, you could say it was contested, since it took months to iron out with a deal finally being cut to end the contest and have Hayes take the oath).
If you changed 'tantamount' to 'feels like' - there would be less reaction, I think.
"I give VP Gore credit for finally throwing in the towel and moving on."
On Dec. 13th, when the Supreme court had ruled against him on the 12th, sure. And after a bunch of scuzzy tactics intended to hand him Florida even if he'd actually lost there. But, granted, that was more than you could say of Trump.
On that topic, its important to compare what Trump did in 2020 and is still doing, to what Stacy Abrams actually said in 2018:
So, Sarcastr0, neither Donald Trump nor Stacy Abrams conceded the legitimacy of the election...but the messages to their supporters were very different. By her actions, Stacy Abrams did far more to both support norms—guardrails—conserving the polity and trust in elections, and to set herself up for a potentially successful future campaign.
Imagine, where would Trump be now if instead of encouraging insurrection, he’d said what Abrams said? It seems most likely that he would be acknowledged as a strong favorite for election to a second term in 2024, something I don't think likely right now.
And a reminder: Yes, Trump had legitimate complaints about illegal election procedures.
Still on this 'court opinions I disagree with are illegitimate' bullshit.
No republic could survive a citizenry that thought like that.
Dude, you are literally complaining that I agree with a state circuit court and the Supreme Court of Wisconsin about what Wisconsin's election laws mean. Try to grasp that.
This was not even a close case, as both courts affirm. The final outcome as dictated by state law was obvious from the beginning, and the officials who set up a system of drop boxes anyway were simply willfully violating state election laws. As people were complaining at the time!
[T]he election law statutes we are asked to consider are by
no means a model of clarity. Many of the controlling provisions
were originally enacted over 100 years ago and have been layered
over with numerous amendments since. Reasonable minds might
read them differently.
Even the court here isn't as cocksure as your righteousness. Come off it.
Moreover 1) this also doesn't make the election or even one vote illegitimate, as can be seen in the discussion of remedies.
And 2) this isn't what Trump is or ever was complaining about!! You are making arguments for Trump, because his own arguments are awful but you still want to defend him, for some reason.
Finally, lets look at the functional upshot here. More people got to vote, more safely. Following the law matters, but the consequences also matter, and your continued insistence that the election wasn't legit well outmatches the consequences.
"Moreover 1) this also doesn't make the election or even one vote illegitimate, as can be seen in the discussion of remedies."
I have, again literally, been saying that one of the reasons the courts refused to take Trump's election challenges seriously was the lack of a plausible remedy. That doesn't mean elections officials weren't breaking laws, they were, and they likely knew it. It just means that, after the election, it was too late to do anything about it. (The catch 22 of refusing to do anything about it before the election on account of him not having suffered any damage yet is another matter.)
"Finally, lets look at the functional upshot here."
Your argument is that it's OK to break the law if you like the result. That's not how things are supposed to work. Following the law matters, and the analysis ends there, because the legislature had plenty of time to have changed the law, considered doing so, and decided not to. The job of the elections officials was to just follow the damned rules, or find another job if they couldn't bear to.
Hence the need to threaten their lives. To encourage them to find another job.
I think a lot of them OUGHT to find other jobs, since they seem to think they're entitled to make up the rules as they go along.
No.
It wouldn't be an Ilya Somin post without hamfisted references to "foot voting" and "political ignorance" shoehorned in throughout.
Ilya has to invite all foot voters, including the shoeless, to his street. When he does, I will be glad to listen, to analyze his proposals.
The nest guardrail for democracy is cutting back on the imperial presidency.
Using executive orders for things like eviction moritoriums, DACA, Social cost of carbon, etc is anti-democratic. Let Congress do its job and take its power back fro the presidency.
And more federalism, state laws can be changed easier and states are more responsive to their citizens than the federal government is.
The members of Congress do not want to responsibility of governing, only the reward,
That’s why they outsource so much power to the Executive.
Casting off punishingly costly regulations to an enforcer class who torments you with the approval of their own conscience, while they stay above it all with cotton stuffed in their cheeks, waiting for supplicants, whereupon receiving a donation, or a "donation", or a job for a child, or magical that turns their spouse into an investment genius, a call is placed and a hit is partially called off.
No problems there.
"fix the Electoral Count Act"
How? Biden won the count, wasn't it supposed to happen that way?
Biden didn't win anything but a bunch of illegal votes. Everyone knows this now. It is common knowledge and the tech companies can't cover it up any longer. This is known by all except for those who live in an echo chamber and only read the NYT.
I'm talking from the point of view of those who think the Electoral Count Act needs reform *even though* they think Congress reached the right (Biden) decision in counting the votes.
So such people, what needs to be reformed?
Obviously it did not work. Trump was not selected as President. The reforms should make sure that happens next time. We all know Biden was not actually elected and the college perpetuated that fraud. That should not be permitted to happen in the future. I would vest all the power of it in Trump who obviously knows more than all of us. I trust him to make the right decision next time.
Eh, just some clarification that,
1) States can't, after election day, change the procedure for selecting electors, or create an alternate slate of electors, because election day IS the day designated by Congress under the Constitution on which the electors will be chosen. Once they're chosen, that's it, there's no do-over.
2) Clarifying that the counting role is purely ministerial.
How about clarifying that the entire election administration role is purely ministerial. You keep arguing that state legislators ought to be empowered to make rules with an eye to influencing the election outcome.
I would argue that state legislators ARE, never mind "ought to be", empowered to make rules. Period. What they do it with an eye to is up to them, so long as they don't actually violate any constitutional proscription.
What I or you think they ought to be empowered to do has nothing to do with it, because WE didn't write the Constitution.
"2) Clarifying that the counting role is purely ministerial."
While the Constitution isn't 100% clear, the best interpretation is that the duty to count the votes includes the power to decide which votes are counted.
In this case, they accepted the Biden electors from the states Trump claimed, and proclaimed Biden the winner.
So except for hard-core, unreconstructed Trump supporters, how did the system fail? Sure, they had a brief debate on whether to accept the Trump electors, a debate which validated the Biden electors.
Or do we need a new law making it extra-illegal to disrupt the count? It seems it was illegal already, judging from the fact that the disruptors (and many merely alleged to be disruptors) are largely guests of the federal government?
Come on. D+ for effort. You're not even trying anymore.
So you think Biden actually got the most voters, ever, in recorded history?
I think it's certainly possible. The population has been going up, and he had the advantage of the most in tank media, ever, in recorded history.
I know Biden actually got the most voters, ever, in recorded history.
Of course, your question is phrased bizarrely; almost everyone who wins a presidential election gets the most votes ever, in recorded history, up to that point, because the population keeps increasing. (Not every single time, because sometimes an independent or third party splits the vote, as in 1992, and sometimes a landslide is followed by not-a-landslide, as in 1972->1976. But almost every time.)
Guardrails? How about lampposts. I think those would be better at preserving liberty.
Also, we are not a democracy. We are a Republic.
Finally, this thing included David French so it is obviously a joke.
O Hey Jimmy is back to threats of violence.
Where in the world is there a threat of violence in the above?
Funny, you have no problem when a left wing organization does anything though. In fact, you go out of your way to justify any and all violence out of them.
I have and continue to say on here that Antifa is more idiots with more violence than sense and not helpful to liberalism at all.
You have this strawman, but I think it's more a mirror.
So when left wingers were trying to BURN DOWN a federal courthouse and you defended shooting fireworks at police officers defending federal institutions, you were doing what again???
"How about lampposts. I think those would be better at preserving liberty."
For instance, let's hear you condemn the person who actually planned on assassinating a US Supreme Court justice, the implied violence protesters have been promising outside of justices houses', or the mob that recently chased one out of a DC steakhouse.
You think I won't condemn the crazy jackass who tried to kill Kavanaugh? Because, yeah that guy sucks and I'm glad he failed and is going to jail.
You also think I don't know what you mean by lampposts?!
Nieporent is right, you're not trying at all. Or maybe you're drunk.
Lampposts provide light. Light is good at exposing the evil darkness that is pervasive everywhere on the left. What else would you use a lamppost for?
You should also go about demanding all your fellow leftists condemn violence in all forms like the media and left does when some wacky crazy guy does something who might be right of center. Or are you sticking with there is no double standard and the left is not OK with casual violence as long as it suits their political purposes?
Well, since I'm not an incipient Klan member, nothing. But you, on the other hand, meant this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/À_la_lanterne
And before the silly deflections, yes, it was in the U.S., too:
https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/hanged-by-a-mob-alexandria-gazette-april-23-1897/
No I clearly meant that they provide light as I explained below.
Like I said, you're not even trying anymore.
You just don't like the answer. Doesn't fit into the echo chamber narrative you have in your head.
Or lets hear you denounce the "bounty" left wing organizations are putting on the location of the Justices? Sounds like they are blatantly baiting and inviting bias.
I had to Google that, but yeah ShutDownDC sucks too and should stop that.
Turns out I'm nothing like you, and am quite willing to call out those associated with my side when they're being violent jackasses.
So you had to do an internet search because your fellow travelers think that this is acceptable. And you only condemned it, in a hollow manner, when specifically called out. Pretty lame Milhouse.
You thought I wouldn't condemn them, and I did. So new goalposts.
And then you still try to call the group I condemned my fellow travelers.
And THEN You're lying about what lampposts refers to. Which I'm absolutely bookmarking. Comedy gold!
Not a great show last night, chief!
It was perfect. You proved my point and also proved that you are just fine with left wing violence by failing to condemn other forms of violence I brought up. I set you up and you failed hard. But, yeah, keep on failing. Provides me a ton more laughs.
Also, if lampposts don't provide light in the darkness what do you use them for? I would do an internet search but fear I might find one of your fellow travelers talking about a sexual fetish they fulfill using a "lamppost"....
So no conservatives represented. Sad.
The authors lack the intellectual curiosity even to look at what massive problems other nations have had in their elections or how they secure them.
At the same time, they perpetuate the idiotic idea that the US is susceptible to losers refusing the peaceful transfer of power, a ridiculous Democratic conspiracy theory. And their main prescription to restoring trust in elections seems to be to rush the certification process and force the supposed loser to concede quickly.
You know, Duverger's law didn't keep the Whigs from being replaced by the Republicans. It makes it *hard* to replace a major party, it doesn't make it *impossible*.
Biased election laws, OTOH, can make it impossible.
But that's kind of my point: Duverger's law does not save a party that pisses off it's voters enough.
But Duverger's law AND biased laws to take away other options? THAT can save a party. And does.
Federalists in 1812, not Whigs, I'm sure you meant to say.
"Every other time you get a Ross Perot (1992) or Ralph Nader (last time we had a big libertarian in the running in 2000) the opposition wins."
Well, duh. They started rigging the system back in the mid 80's. By 2000, they had things locked down pretty tight.
Even Perot only got on the ballot in most of the states he did, because they waived for him the laws the real third parties had to obey, because he looked like a useful spoiler.
The former.
It's my position that, by locking the system down tight so that 3rd parties aren't a viable threat anymore, the major parties freed themselves to not care if they were actually liked. They can get by just by convincing enough people that they're less loathsome than the other guy.
And Wilson won a ton of states because the Republicans were split between Teddy and Taft.
Why not have a Council of Ulema pick which candidates we get to vote for? It's not as if the ignorant voters could select better candidates on their own.
In fact, there's a risk that without the vetting provided by the ulema, voters may vote for a heretic or infidel.
I’m having trouble these days finding a side to loathe a little less.
Ok, you're making a structural argument and not a political argument. This makes sense. Your argument is about access and the ability to even appear on a ballot.
I don't think three parties does it; four or five parties would. It would bring about coalition style governing, and that is the fundamental shift away from a two party system (at least to me). This has happened before in our history (coalition style governing...early US history). That would slow things down, federally.
It depends on what the *voters themselves* want in terms of whom to elect. So if they want to limit themselves to two parties, that must be respected. If they want to spread their votes among multiple parties so as to impose a coalition system, deal with it.
In other words, allow a free vote (i. e., without artificial suppression of third parties) and see what the voters do. Wouldn't you agree?