The Volokh Conspiracy
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SCOTUS Eliminates the Lemon Defense, and Smokes Joints With Play
A revolution in Establishment Clause jurisprudence from three Free Exercise and Free Speech cases.
Formally, at least, there were no Establishment Clause cases on the Court's docket this past term. But in three cases involving Free Exercise and Free Speech claims, the Court effected a revolution in Establishment Clause jurisprudence. The facts of the cases are very different, but they all involve a common thread.
First, in Shurtleff v. Boston, the city refused to fly a flag with a cross to avoid a potential Establishment Clause violation. Second, in Carson v. Makin, Maine excluded religious schools from its tuition policy to avoid a potential Establishment Clause violation. Third, in Kennedy v. Bremerton School District, the coach was disciplined to avoid a potential Establishment Clause violation. In each case, the government restricted the rights of free exercise and/or free speech to prevent an entanglement between church and state. Call it the Lemon defense.
In each of the three cases, the Supreme Court emphatically rejected the Lemon defense. In Shurtleff, raising the flag would not have violated the Establishment Clause. In Carson, providing funding for the religious schools would not have violated the Establishment Clause. In Kennedy, allowing the coach to pray at the 50-yard line would not have violated the Establishment Clause. Therefore, fears of entanglement would not justify infringements of speech and exercise rights.
Going forward, the government can no longer say, "Lemon made me do it." Or, as Justice Gorsuch put it, the fears about "phantom constitutional violations" will not suffice.
In truth, there is no conflict between the constitutional commands before us. There is only the "mere shadow" of a conflict, a false choice premised on a misconstruction of the Establishment Clause. Schempp (Goldberg, J., concurring). And in no world may a government entity's concerns about phantom constitutional violations justify actual violations of an individual's First Amendment rights
Justice Breyer's dissent in Carson laments the elimination of the so-called "play in the joints" framework.
I have also previously explained why I believe that a "rigid, bright-line" approach to the Religion Clauses—an approach without any leeway or "play in the joints"—will too often work against the Clauses' underlying purposes.
And Sotomayor laments that not much is left of the doctrine:
Second, the consequences of the Court's rapid transformation of the Religion Clauses must not be understated. From a doctrinal perspective, the Court's failure to apply the play-in-the-joints principle here, leaves one to wonder what, if anything, is left of it.
As I read Shurtleff, Carson, and Kennedy, the Court has snapped the "play in the joints" doctrine. Locke v. Davey is abrogated. And, combined with the quasi-overruling of Lemon, the government can no longer use the Establishment Clause as a prophylactic. The state will have to err on the side of allowing more religion into the public square to avoid violating speech and exercise rights.
Four years ago, the Court could not muster this sort of change in American Legion. But Red Flag June has brought a revolution to Establishment Clause jurisprudence, in three cases that did not actually raise Establishment Clause claims.
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Teacher fired for a tension alleviating joke.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-pennsylvania-special-ed-teacher-was-dismissed-from-her-job-after-she-taped-i-have-nothing-nice-to-say-message-to-student-s-nose/ar-AAZ7HnK?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=4bc96a037c3d4aeb9c709353e9928bb5
But Red Flag June has brought a revolution to Establishment Clause jurisprudence, in three cases that did not actually raise Establishment Clause claims.
Just a few more steps on the way to eliminating the clause entirely.
The original public meeting/understanding of the establishment clause allowed states to have their own official churches (and several did), just not the federal government. I remember at a Q&A 15 years or so ago, somebody asking Justice Scalia whether his originalism would permit state churches. I recall him acknowledging that’s what true originism would call for, but that even originalists need to let some things go when they have been a norm long enough.
I have to wonder if there would be at least two votes with the current court, to permit an official state church.
*meaning
*originalism
Sorry for the typos.
14th Amendment?
Conservatives won't ignore the establishment clause when it comes to religions they don't prefer.
Around a decade ago, the likes of republicans such as Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum all concurred that "Sharia law" must be stopped from being imposed upon America.
If a K-12 religious school (that advocates "Sharia law") sets up shop in texas and seeks government money, there is bound to be a bunch of upset conservatives. Before now, these conservatives wouldn't have to worry about their tax dollars going to that school.
The way around this problem is to ask the justices to let states establish religion within their borders, as AFL suggested last week;
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/america-first-legal-trump-establishment-cause-church-state-1375776/
If any group of justices would ever entertain such a question, the current group is it.
The Council of Islamic Schools in North America specifically asked the Supreme Court to rule the way it did.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-1088/171699/20210311154242895_20-1088%20Amici%20Brief.pdf
Is this surprising? Who wouldn't want access to government money?
Says a lot about Muslims that they are willing to step up for Christian schools. Would Christians do the same for Muslims?
Is there some sort of "This doesn't work for Muslims" part of these opinions everyone but you missed?
"Would Christians do the same for Muslims?"
I didn't even have to break a sweat to find this from 2015, about the Muslim prisoner who won the right to wear a longer beard than prison regulations permitted.
"“This is a huge win for religious freedom and for all Americans,” said Eric Rassbach, Deputy General Counsel for the Becket Fund for Religious Freedom who was co-counsel in the case. “What the Supreme Court said today was that government officials cannot impose arbitrary restrictions on religious liberty just because they think government knows best.”"
https://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/politics/supreme-court-hands-down-prison-beard/index.html
Here's the Becket Fund's board:
https://www.becketlaw.org/about-us/board/
These cases would all have been decided differently if the Free Exercise was of Islam instead of conservative Christianity.
Cappie, Baby. What are you saying? These Supreme Court decisions come from feelings, bias, which side of the bed, and whether they had a sandwich. Are you saying, they have no external validation nor even consistency? Are you saying these are garbage ideas from garbage people?
There are many ways to criticise the current jurisprudence. But I don’t think that that one is accurate. It would be a bit like accusing the liberal justices of seeking to promote vegetatianism or organics when they decide a farming case.
Still waiting for a Free Exercise case that disproves me. Let’s see what happens!
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-6827_5h26.pdf
Glad you found one, involving someone growing a beard in prison.
Still waiting for one visible to the public.
RLUIPA is routinely used by Muslims to overcome local opposition to mosque building.
Specifically, a convicted criminal - a particularly nasty crime IIRC - converts to Islam and demands the right to ignore prison regulations on beards. Supported by Becket Fund, wins 9-0 in Supreme Court.
I don't agree, Y.
The guiding principle seems to be whatever Christians want Christians get.
IMO, as I've made clear, both Kennedy and Carson are terrible decisions. Carson is probably the worse of the two, because it is so blatant, but Kennedy is pretty bad, if only for the willful blindness of the majority.
Holt v. Hobbs (2015).
Now go back to your nap.
You found one, invoking someone growing a beard in prison.
Still waiting for one in public view.
So your problem is with the publicity? Bizarre.
It was 9-0 also. Kagan, Sotomayor, Gunsburg, Breyer, Alito, Thomas, Scalia et al. all in agreement. No dissenters.
Still waiting for one in public view, that students or children would be expected to be influenced by.
Saying “See! They apply it to Islam if it’s a Muslim locked away in prison!” Isn’t much of an argument.
In other words, you don't want to know about cases in which you are wrong. Fair enough.
I said the three cases here (all of which involve public or educational acts) would be decided differently. Still waiting to be disproved.
You'e waiting for a hypothetical to be disproved?
"Right wing" justices who were happy to uphold the rights of a Muslim criminal would hesitate to uphold the rights of a law-abiding, all-American Muslim football coach?
Not SC case but in 2004 NY judge ruled that Sikh police officers could wear turbans and beards.
"in public view"
He's in public view on the Arkansas Dept of Corrections Web site.
His crimes, and his desire to defy prison authorities, are known to the public - his hairy jihad was well-covered in the media.
In a case which would supposedly trigger anti-Muslim and anti-criminal biases, the conservatives (at the urging of at least one "right-wing" organization) were willing to vote for the Muslim criminal.
"No, send that one back, I don't like it, send me a case about a Muslim coach praying in the outfield."
Religious liberty does not include exemption from taxes. The Constitution does not exempt religions from taxation, and had the Congress wished to exempt religions constitutionally, they could have specified an exemption in 16A.
Yet quite the contrary. The text reads: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived" (my bold)
Which can only mean that with Lemon gone, even if you argue that 1A somehow - in its penumbra, perhaps? - allows an exemption for religious bodies from taxation, 16A removes that exemption.
There’s another issue that isn’t religion based.
Income taxes are based on income. And churches, like other non-profit organizations, are structured so that they have no net income.
Well, that depends on how you define "net income."
Lots of non-profits have revenue that exceeds their expenses, but spend it on things like new facilities, and so on. In some cases they have been known to pay exorbitant salaries to top officials, so as to be "non-profit," sort of.
But leaving the crooks aside, a normal business that invests its profits in things like new buildings nonetheless owes taxes on those profits.
Yes, they get a depreciation deduction in out years, but the money is still treated as profit in the year earned.
...which re-opens the question as to the definition of "income".
Meanwhile, watch for all those cracker school districts that will try to bring creationism back into HS science classes.
Clarence Darrow, please call your office.
Scopes was a side-show.
I'm thinking of Epperson v. Arkansas, Segraves v. California, McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, Edwards v. Aguillard, Kitzmiller v Dover and, among other ignorant legislative efforts, the 1981 Arkansas Act: “Balanced Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science”.
Well, I believe Scope's was the first and I am not well versed enough to comment on the others except to say that "evolution" is only a theory (explanation) as to how life forms change.
It makes no attempt to explain the origin of life.
You are using the popular definition of "theory" not the scientific one. Further, it is not a criticism of evolution that it can't explain the origin of life - it isn't supposed to. That's the general subject of abiogenesis. Evolution explains the observed diversity of life from the time life began, not how the first life arose.
"Evolution explains the observed diversity of life from the time life began, not how the first life arose."
Which is what I said. So it's abiogenesis v creationism or intelligent design. Neither has an answer but you would eliminate any discussion.
Which is what I said. So it's abiogenesis v creationism or intelligent design. Neither has an answer but you would eliminate any discussion.
Nope. Creationism/Intelligent Design are also attempts to explain the observed diversity of life, not just the origin of life. There is not a single Creo, TTBOMK, who says, "God created the first cells, and evolutionary processes then led to what we now see".
There are deistic and theistic evolutionary ideas - either that God started the process and evolution was his process for the "plan", or that evolution generally occurs naturally but occasionally God intervenes - but neither are scientific and generally followers of both are content with evolution being taught as it normally is.
As there is no generally accepted theory of abiogenesis yet, only sundry hypotheses, there is nothing one can really teach, other than pointing out that things like Wohler's synthesis of urea from ammonium cyanate and the Miller-Urey experiment show that some traditional obstacles to the idea of natural abiogenesis are no longer applicable.
But as for explanations for observed diversity - there is only evolution. Goddidit isn't science, whether you call it Creation Science of Intelligent Design. Other hypotheses - e.g., Lamarckianism - have been tested and found wanting.
If you want to teach a scientific alternative to evolution in HS, two conditions are required. It has to be scientific, and it has to have supporting evidence. Knock yourself out.
That would be stupid. Its not science like teaching kids there are more than 2 sexes
Basically the court is moving (or perhaps will later tell us that it has already moved) from a strong establishment clause and weak free exercise clause pair to a wrak establishment clause and strong free exercise clause pair.
An Establishment case (at least one with standing) occurs when the state does something that cowrces someone (not something that merely offends someone). A free exercise clause case occurs when the state when the state does something that coerces someone.
If there’s no lokger a difference from when the two come into play, there are no longer any joints to play in.
All that’s left is for the court to rule that states can’t condition aid to religious schools on conditions that go against their doctrines, and the old prohibition on the state actively aiding religion gets replaced by a mandate for the state to do so.
I thought the proper boundaries were to the right of the state being forbidden to provide any aid to religious education. But I think they are to the left of it being a full-fledged judicially mandated and administered entitlement program with legislatures having no say in the matter at all.
The key change here is essentially a visceral one. It is a change from being sympathetic to dissenters who feel coerced when the majority attempts to involve everyone to regarding objecting dissenters as essentially bigots who demand to be catered to and lack decent toleration for other people’s feelings and needs.
It’s a change from regarding the little boy who constantly says he’s being bullied as an archetypal object of sympathy, to being quick to suspect him of taunting people that he’s going to tell the teacher on them if they don’t do what he says.
I think it is this shofy in archetype, in visceral instincts about who to believe, more than any shift in formal doctrine, that drives these cases.
The school board and the district court instinctively and viscerally believed the coach was trying to bully the kids. But majority here instinctively and viscerally believed that the kids (and the school board) were trying to bully the coach. That difference, not any difference in cerebral First Amendment doctrine, is reall what drove things.
As I’ve said many times, wio is bullying whom is often a political question. Is getting into people’s safe spaces and going right in their faces a form of harassment? That might depend on whether it’s Nazis trying to hold a march in the middle of a synagogue service, or black people trying to sit in the designated safe space for whites in the front of the bus. Who is bullying whom? Who is invading whose rights?
We all have visceral and instinctive answers. But our visceral and instinctive answers do not always turn out to be correct.
When you pray on the 50 yard line, publicly like the hypocrites that Jesus excoriated, you're the bully. The only issue is whether if you support the coach you feel obliged to rationalise/lie, or whether you feel no such need because Jeebus.
"like the hypocrites that Jesus excoriated"
Ah, so he's a heretic, and error has no rights.
An Establishment case (at least one with standing) occurs when the state does something that cowrces someone (not something that merely offends someone).
Carson is surely a matter of coercion, or worse, exclusion. The court requires the state to aid the religious schools - to provide a benefit from which others are excluded.
And Kennedy is not just a matter of people being offended. It is a case where the coach, rather than praying privately as his supporters claim, makes a great and public show of religiosity, while acting as a school official, and in fact refusing to pray privately, which absolutely will influence the players.
The decision is built on a lie. Gorsuch should be ashamed of himself.
Who is excluded?
Those who can't attend the school, and have to make other, probably inconvenient, arrangements.
Those who would like their children to receive religious training at government expense, but don't have enough co-religionists in the area to justify a school.
IOW, if your religion is popular enough in the area you can get state money to run a school to promote that religion. Otherwise not.
And of course that not only endorses and funds the popular religion, in this case it actively promotes it.
Let's look at reality. There are going to be families for whom the decision to send their kids to these schools is marginal. Maybe they are nominal Christians, not particularly devout, not caring that much one way or the other. The simple convenience of it being the local option is going, inevitably, to sway some of these families to send their kids there.
Not being popular enough to have your own school is a disparate impact, not impermissible intentional exclusion by the state.
However you define it, it is a perfectly predictable consequence, not of state legislation but of the court decision.
And it does look like exclusion, whether intentional or not. Saying "schools get extra money if they have class on Saturday" would have a disparate impact on Jewish schools. Saying, "We are only funding religious schools for the majority religion" is exclusion. And that is what is going on.
The result of the case is far more closer to the former than the latter (although I think the case was decided wrongly).
"have to make other, probably inconvenient, arrangements."
You mean go the the secular private school. Because that was the case in Maine.
The state drove the issue by not providing convenient public schools to all residents.
It also found an easy response. in less than a couple of weeks.
I'd say, "move along, there's nothing to see."
What was the easy response?
And suppose there is a convenient, affordable, private school available. How does that change the fact that one religion is getting a government-funded religious school while others don't?
"How does that change the fact that one religion is getting a government-funded religious school while others don't?"
The question is irrelevant UNLESS you can point to a school in the same district that was run bu a different sect AND was denied the use of vouchers.
" a government-funded religious school "
That is a bogus argument. The parents get the voucher. The amount could be capped if need be.
But can you point to a Jewish day school for which parents were denied use of a voucher? If you can, then you have a point.
"What was the easy response?"
The easy response was to require that any school receiving a voucher has to comply with anti-discrimination laws. Very easy.
OK, Don.
I didn't get that that was what you were referring to. Now we'll see how that fares in court. There seem to be some objections, including from the Institute for Justice.
The question is irrelevant UNLESS you can point to a school in the same district that was run bu a different sect AND was denied the use of vouchers.
Not entirely. That whole line of argument sort of assumes a populous area with lots of groups of families of differing beliefs, etc.
In fact, in these rural areas there is not likely to be such diversity. As a practical matter there will be one, or maybe no, religious group popular enough to justify a school. So you are funding the religious school, especially if the presence of that school discourages the construction of a public school.
That the money passes briefly through the hands of the parents doesn't seem to me to be particularly important.
" As a practical matter there will be one, or maybe no, religious group popular enough to justify a school. So you are funding the religious school, especially if the presence of that school discourages the construction of a public school."
Then, your objection is irrelevant as the government is not favoring a religion at at. It is just making it possible for parents to send their kids to school.
As for the legal shakiness of the State's decision. Upsetting it will be highly unlikely in the face of current anti-discrimination law produced by the Congress.
your objection is irrelevant as the government is not favoring a religion at at. It is just making it possible for parents to send their kids to school.
At the margin it is favoring a religion, since without the subsidy parents might well choose to organize a non-sectarian school.
Still, at least we agree that the Carson decision was wrong, since it permits the subsidized schools to discriminate however they wish.
And of course not all states with this kind of system will pass a law similar to Maine's.
Carson dis not permit schools to discriminate however they wish. That issue was not before, nor decided by the Court. It's now up to Maine to take the next step.
The decision is built on a lie. Gorsuch should be ashamed of himself.
I suppose he can resort to the Martin Luther defence, that a lie be permitted in the right cause.
I thought the proper boundaries were to the right of the state being forbidden to provide any aid to religious education.
ReaderY...Isn't this just another way of giving license to the states to directly discriminate against religious institutions? You appear to support Blaine amendments...but do you, really?
I don't think your reading is consistent with how the Founders generally viewed religious institutions in society.
" The state will have to err on the side of allowing more religion into the public square to avoid violating speech and exercise rights. "
Only while gullible, downscale Americans maintain their doomed, frantic grip on the Court and lesser elements of our society, imposing unpopular and obsolete position on our society for a bit longer.
Guess you put no stock in Pascal's Wager.
If indeed properly attributed to Pascal, one of his stupidest ideas, because it's childishly easy to refute.
Well, Have at it.
Oh, come on. I refuted Pascal's wager as part of my final confirmation essay, which tackled all the classical 'proofs' of God's existence: Pascal trivially ignores the possibility that God is offended by people who only believe tactically, and more so than He is by sincere disbelief.
There can be no proofs of God's existence nor proofs that He doesn't exist.
Well, yeah, that was kind of the theme of my essay: Faith is unavoidable, in either direction. Only the agnostics get by without it, by just not caring about the topic enough to have an opinion.
So,is Atheism a religion? (I guess like everything else it depends on your definition.)
As Terry Pratchett observed, atheism is a religion the way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
I disagree with Mr Bellmore about faith and atheism because in my case in particular, my atheism isn't even, fundamentally, a religious position. (Note that just because a belief in X is a religious position doesn't make disbelief a religious one - cf the case of someone who believes the earth to be flat because it's described as a disc in Isaiah or wherever.)
But I agree with him on Pascal's Wager, and would add, Pascal's Wager also requires you to believe in the cruellest and most monstrous god you can conceive of, because the punishment for disbelief would be worse than that of a claimed loving god. which alters the "payout".
Pascal's Wager also requires you to believe in the cruellest and most monstrous god you can conceive of,
But of course that applies to the whole "nonbelievers automatically go to Hell" faith.
As to your point about Atheism not being a "religion" I'd be force to concede the point since it seems no one can come up with an agreed upon definition.
That being said, I think conflicts arise when Atheists make arguments against those who profess a belief in a higher power. Why do they take offensive at a symbol or words that have no meaning to them?
As for Pascal's Wager:
I don't know what Pascal's position on the existence of God was so I can't agree with your claim that "Pascal's Wager also requires you to believe in the cruellest and most monstrous god you can conceive of, because the punishment for disbelief would be worse than that of a claimed loving god. which alters the "payout".
Since no human can ever know whether or not God exists I take his position to be not a bet in the common understanding but rather a choice made of our own free will.
Why do they take offensive at a symbol or words that have no meaning to them?
We generally don't, until people on the other side misrepresent our position.
Let me give you a hypothetical.
Liverpool are playing Manchester City in the FA Cup final.
I say to you, "Do you think Liverpool will win?"
You respond, "no".
I say, "aha, you think Man City will win".
You respond, "no!".
I say, "but you didn't think Liverpool would win so you must think that Man City will win!"
You respond quite logically with, "no, I have no thought on the subject so I do not think one or the other would win. I have no interest in soccer."
I say, "but you must have heard of at least one of them, and the FA Cup is a really big deal."
You, "look, I have no interest in soccer, please leave me alone!"
Me: "I just asked your opinion, and if you don't care about football, why are you getting so annoyed about it?"
If you say so.
Of course.
The con won't work.
Pascal also trivially ignores the fact that there are multiple religions; for the wager to work, God would have to be indifferent to which religion you adopt.
"Pascal trivially ignores the possibility that God is offended by people who only believe tactically, and more so than He is by sincere disbelief."
I disagree. He explains that even though it may begin as "tactical belief", as time wears on, it will become genuine belief. It is a very sophisticated insight into the human mind. It is more currently reflected in concepts like "the big lie" and brainwashing. Basically, if you are told the same thing over and over, even if you disbelieve it at first, you are likely to come to accept it as true.
What about those of us who don't give a damn what religion -- if any -- that you follow? Just keep it the hell out of my life, don't make me pay taxes on it, and don't subject me to your overt, sanctimonious displays of piety.
Which religion do you pay taxes to? Islam hasn't taken over the US, yet.
If religious establishments get services from the government but don't pay into it, they're being subsidised by the rest of us. In effect, we're paying taxes for them.
By that logic, every service you personally get from the government that is in excess of your personal contribution is being subsidized by the rest of us, and in effect we're paying taxes for you, personally.
Happily, it doesn't actually work that way.
Actually, it works exactly that way and the issue is the extent to which it is tolerated.
Are you More Curious' spokesperson or alter ego?
I don't know More Curious specifically, but as I'm British originally, you will notice a difference in style between me and most posters.
I asked because you chose to answer the question directed at him/her.
I answer intelligent, well-reasoned, non-facetious questions only. Maybe you can find someone else to play your childish games.
Maybe you should make intelligent statements. Which religion are you forced to pay taxes to support? Do you live in an Islamic theocracy and pay jizya?
If you look at the thread, you'll see that DaveM responded to me.
But this is an internet forum. There is no privity of debate.
No, it does not work that way. Allow me to correct you on that point. We hold common services and common goods "in common", that is, collectively, not individually.
When you drive on a highway, you are not individually being "subsidized" to do so. In a collective ownership, everyone has equal access and may use the shared resource as they have need. We don't individually accrue the benefits, we don't individually assign shares of ownership, or anything like that. It's just a common good.
You are allowed to say what you like, pretty much, even if you're wrong. The point of common goods is that it is inefficient, and may even on occasion be impossible, to apportion costs. That does not mean that no subsidy is occurring, only that it is generally accepted that there's no convenient way to avoid it, and that indirectly people benefit even those who do not use that good. You may not use a light-house, but the container ships which contain the goods you've bought on Amazon does. (The US, often does common goods very poorly which is why US public infrastructure is for shite).
But in the case of churches, we're not just talking about common goods but about free-riding And free-riding is free-riding.
rassnfrassn no edit function. "on Amazon do."
The point is generally that, far from free-riding, nonprofits actually improve the community and thus should be encouraged, and one of the ways to encourage them is to not tax them. Churches often contribute to disaster relief, set up homeless shelters and soup kitchens, run schools, etc. (Voucher programs are generally in amounts that are *less* than what it would cost to educate the child in the public schools.)
SRG....The power to tax is the power to destroy (John Marshall)
The greater evil here is for government to tax religious institutions to compel belief in a state sponsored belief system. I am not dismissing your point, I get it. To me, this is a case where we must choose the lesser evil.
Taxing religious institutions compels belief no more than taxing McDonalds compels consumption of quarter-pounders.
One interesting spot these decisions lead us to is to reduce the scope of government. Since government can no longer pick winners and losers, by necessity their influence will be be less, and their ability to meddle will also be less. That's a very happy thought, indeed.
The flip side of this is that people are now more free to say things you may not like to hear, and you won't be able to go to the government for relief. They'll be as free as you are. We haven't had a lot of experience lately with this kind of non-intervention, especially the younger people. We'll have to remind them that free exercise is just fine in a pluralistic society, it's how you bond together.