The Volokh Conspiracy
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No Offense, But It's Just A Prayer
Kennedy tells people to get over prayer in public unless there is direct coercion.
In American Legion, Justice Gorsuch wrote a concurring opinion, joined by Justice Thomas. Gorsuch challenged the entire basis of Article III standing for Establishment Clause cases. In Gorsuch's view, merely taking "offense" at some public display of religion was insufficient to establish an Article III injury. (I too have long questioned standing in cases like Van Orden v. Perry.) Gorsuch wrote:
In a large and diverse country, offense can be easily found. Really, most every governmental action probably offends somebody. No doubt, too, that offense can be sincere, sometimes well taken, even wise. But recourse for disagreement and offense does not lie in federal litigation. Instead, in a society that holds among its most cherished ambitions mutual respect, tolerance, self-rule, and democratic responsibility, an "offended viewer" may "avert his eyes," Erznoznik v. Jacksonville (1975), or pursue a political solution. Today's decision represents a welcome step toward restoring this Court's recognition of these truths, and I respectfully concur in the judgment.
If this passage is correct, then why would someone suffering "offense" from a public display have a constitutional injury? Van Orden could have just have averted his eyes at the Ten Commandments display. (And don't get me started on Flast v. Cohen.)
At the time, Gorsuch's opinion garnered only two votes. Now, a majority of the Court implicitly endorsed Gorsuch's reasoning. Kennedy v. Bremerton includes this passage:
Naturally, Mr. Kennedy's proposal to pray quietly by himself on the field would have meant some people would have seen his religious exercise. Those close at hand might have heard him too. But learning how to tolerate speech or prayer of all kinds is "part of learning how to live in a pluralistic society," a trait of character essential to "a tolerant citizenry." Lee. This Court has long recognized as well that "secondary school students are mature enough … to understand that a school does not endorse," let alone coerce them to participate in, "speech that it merely permits on a nondiscriminatory basis." Mergens. Of course, some will take offense to certain forms of speech or prayer they are sure to encounter in a society where those activities enjoy such robust constitutional protection. But "[o]ffense … does not equate to coercion." Town of Greece.
If offense is not sufficient to trigger coercion, then what is the basis for an Article III injury? Moreover, the Court has sent a clear message: unless there is direct coercion, get over prayer in public. The government's attempt to avoid a person from feeling "offense" is not sufficient to violate the coach's Free Exercise and Free Speech rights.
Justice Sotomayor's dissent contends that Gorsuch read Lee v. Weisman out of context:
Today's Court quotes the Lee Court's remark that enduring others' speech is "part of learning how to live in a pluralistic society.'" The Lee Court, however, expressly concluded, in the very same paragraph, that "[t]his argument cannot prevail" in the school-prayer context because the notion that being subject to a "brief " prayer in school is acceptable "overlooks a fundamental dynamic of the Constitution": its "specific prohibition on … state intervention in religious affairs." [FN7]
FN7: The Court further claims that Lee is distinguishable because it involved prayer at an event in which the school had 'in every practical sense compelled attendance and participation in [a] religious exercise." The Court in Lee, however, recognized expressly that attendance at the graduation ceremony was not mandatory and that students who attended only had to remain silent during and after the prayers.
And Sotomayor challenges the majority's claim that "direct coercion" is needed under the Court's precedents:
The Court claims that the District "never raised coercion concerns" simply because the District conceded that there was "'no evidence that students [were] directly coerced to pray with Kennedy.'" The Court's suggestion that coercion must be "direc[t]" to be cognizable under the Establishment Clause is contrary to long-established precedent. The Court repeatedly has recognized that indirect coercion may raise serious establishment concerns, and that "there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools." Lee. Tellingly, none of this Court's major cases involving school prayer concerned school practices that required students to do any more than listen silently to prayers, and some did not even formally require students to listen, instead providing that attendance was not mandatory. Nevertheless, the Court concluded that the practices were coercive as a constitutional matter.
Once again in Red Flag June, the Court has shifted doctrine. Lemon is gone. Plus cases involving coercion like Lee and Santa Fe have also been abrogated. The amount of doctrinal shifts this Term will take some time to digest.
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then why would someone suffering "offense" from a public display have a constitutional injury?
Why? To generate worthless lawyer fees, of course. All PC is case. All woke is case.
The country issick of you lawyers. We should get rid of you.
If we ban all the sjw virtue signaling public and private organizations routinely force on their employees and guests they might have a more of a leg to stand on when persecuting that coach.
I'm much more offended by that than I am by prayer. And I'm a proud atheist.
Ahh, a judicial Get Over It, G’wan with yourself! Good!
20 years ago I recall some of my fellow atheists beaking off about how they didn't even want their kids exposed to religion, as if that was the real driving force behind this. This was when a kid praying by themself or in a little group in school was questioned. They should be forbidden because precious might see it, and that's a grave wrong.
They are right about one thing, though. Capture of public schools to teach political doctrine is something of concern.
"Capture of public schools to teach political doctrine is something of concern."
That's actually hilarious. The public schools started out captured in that regard. Being captured that way is the point of public schools. We might be having arguments about the details of the political doctrine, but that there will BE political doctrine is already locked in.
You want to change that, you need to get rid of "public" schools, replace them with school vouchers you can spend at any institution you want.
Beyond indoctrination into Chinese Commie interests, they are promoting butt banging in 7th grade. That is of concern because groomers are in firm control of school boards.
Dismissive condescension is always the sign of a keen legal mind.
Queenie is not a lawyer. It is an underpaid, under appreciated great mind. It is very sharp, and knows so much. I support its effort to find a better job, and will gladly provide a glowing letter of recommendation. Who agrees with me, here? Will you join me in writing a letter of recommendation.
Fuck you.
Stop attacking the fundamental rights of others and we can talk about things on the margin. Until then, fuck you.
Sotomayor is right. Gorsuch couldn't be more wrong.
As in Carson, the majority here ignores context and reduces the case to stick-figure simplicity. (And even the stick figures are incorrectly drawn. Private prayer!)
And why does only direct coercion matter? Suppose a teacher announces, at the start of class, "I'm going to say a prayer now. Those of you who wish to may join." According to Gorsuch, this is just jim-dandy.
I agree with you that the guy was showing off. I agree with whoever posted on an earlier thread about this that his doing so is actually contrary to how the Bible quotes Jesus as to instructing how to pray.
And direct coercion is what matters because unlike indirect coercion it’s objectively observable. Indirect coercion is in the eye of the beholder. How do you take a right away based on subjective opinion? Remember we’re talking about the Establishment Clause. Establishment. Clearly direct circulation violates the Establishment clause. How does indirect coercion do so. What even is it. If everyone doesn’t “voluntarily” participate does that not indicate that there wasn’t coercion?
It's coercion if those who do not want to participate feel pressure to do so.
Which was the finding of fact by the district court judge. Didn't seem to matter to the majority, who were just intent on taking another swing at the establishment clause.
I thought coercion wasn't raised in the lower courts.
Andrew Koppelman in an article in The Hill quotes this from the trial judge's decision:
"Players (sometimes via parents) reported feeling compelled to join Kennedy in prayer to stay connected with the team or ensure playing time, and there is no evidence of athletes praying in Kennedy’s absence. Kennedy himself testified that, ‘[o]ver time, the number of players who gathered near [him] after the game grew to include the majority of the team.’ . . . This slow accumulation of players joining Kennedy suggests exactly the type of vulnerability to social pressure that makes the Establishment Clause vital in the high school context."
AWD,
As I recall that issue of coercion did NOT concern the act in question for which Kennedy was fired. Rather it concerned a past complaint on the basis of which Kennedy was suspended. He violated the terms of his suspension. That the mid-field act could have coerced any of his school's students, who had left the field, is a stretch. But is should have been irrelevant if the district had fired for the correct reason.
You might be right at the trial level, but Gorsuch flatly states the Ninth Circuit did not accept that finding (but that doesn't mean they rejected it either). Nonetheless, the Court held there wasn't coercion based on the same set of facts which is within the province of the Court.
Of course it is. They are bound by nothing.
"It's coercion if those who do not want to participate feel pressure to do so."
"Pressure"? This encapsulates the actual problem: Instead of teaching kids the HAVE spines, we're trying to spare them the need for them!
But we can't spare them the need to have spines, we can't design life so they'll never encounter pressure. We can only rob them of the experience of resisting it, and raise a generation of hothouse flowers.
And direct coercion is what matters because unlike indirect coercion it’s objectively observable. Indirect coercion is in the eye of the beholder.
Indirect coercion is also observable. Peer pressure, desire to please those in authority, are real things, bevis. And if the coach wasn't trying to influence others - to evangelize in effect - why wouldn't he truly pray privately? Because Jesus told him only the 50-yard line right after the game counts?
How do you feel about the example of the teacher who invites students in his class to join him in prayer? Hey. It's just an invitation, right?
The coach may not have expected his players to participate. Apparently there was no punishment for those that didn't do so - at least there didn't seem to be any evidence of that. Could be the guy just wanted to show off his own piety.
I agree with you about the other example I think. The difference is verbally "inviting" subordinate people to participate, which the coach didn't do. The teacher is probably on the wrong side of the establishment line. The teacher has the right to pray, but the students have the right to be left alone. The coach left them alone, your hypothetical teacher didn't. Not that my opinion counts for anything.
In that moment, is he still functionally the coach, a paid actor of the state?
Some objective questions which might clarify (I don't have the answers):
-did he do any coach like actions after the prayer; address the players, or families? pick up any gear, walk toward the locker rooms or enter the school? Any of these, suggest that he did not clearly define when he was and was not acting as a state official.
-would any person attending the game be permitted to do the same? Did security every hustle any other person, who was not a player, coach, or other school official off the field? Because if the coach received special access that any one else was denied, then he was still functioning in the capacity of coach and a state actor.
Hypothetically, what if instead of praying on a football field, the coach, who also taught a history class, was a Muslim and he spread his prayer rug on the floor of his classroom, knelt, and prayed to Allah as his students were still filing out after class was dismissed? Offensive behavior with no standing or Implied coercion?
Let's see how the clingers react to a coach who tells students that 'organized religion is a pile of silly, harmful fairy tales, and anyone who tells you they are anything else is lying to you -- choose reason, every time, and especially over childish superstition,' then leads a "voluntary" assemblage of players at midfield after every game to exalt reason over superstition.
Rev. Great legal analysis. Argument by analogy is very common in the law. Unfortunately for the dumbass lawyer, argument by analogy is a fallacy. Almost the entire briefing system and almost all Supreme Court decision commit that fallacy.
This is from high school. All of high school is erased by 1L. It is more damaging than a traumatic brain injury with prolonged coma.
https://fallacyinlogic.com/false-analogy-definition-and-examples/
Why would that be offensive? "Extra credit if you join me" or "Lose points if you don't" is bad. "Pray with me if you want" is not a big deal.
I believe that a Jewish religious group and a Muslim religious group filed an amicus brief on behalf of the coach, as they did in the religious school case. The religions that are supposedly going to be treated unfairly because of decisions don’t appear to believe they will.
Of course that depends on how the locals handle things. New York immediately passed a blatantly unconstitutional law as a lake attempt to work around Brien. Similar to what Texas did back when abortion was protected. Zealots sometimes give no shits about the rules.
An organization with Jewish in its name and an organization with Islam in its name filed a joint amicus brief on behalf of the coach. That's certainly not the same thing as "the religions" not believing that it will. I'm not sure who those groups are, but I know I didn't vote for either of them.
If this were, "Just a prayer," nobody would be arguing about it. Presumably, Kennedy prays all the time without interference from anyone. Gorsuch is begging the question, on purpose. The argument is about a public parade of religiosity, by a public employee, in the course of his public employment. It is not merely that he did that; it is also because that is why he did it—to make a point of public religiosity, not only demonstrated, but enforced. No one on the Court, and no one reading this blog can be in any doubt.
And if the judge performatively does a Hail Mary followed by a few Our Fathers, with a bunch of the court staff and prosecuting attorney joining in, everyone can rest assured that this is no problem for the defense
" The amount of doctrinal shifts this Term will take some time to digest. "
But, most likely, relatively little time for America's liberal-libertarian mainstream to discard. Maybe the only thing that could stop better Americans from defeating conservatives in the culture war is a Rapture.
(Well, that or conservative development of a machine that mass-produces poorly educated, rural, superstitious, roundly bigoted, economically inadequate, disaffected, stale-thinking, elderly, southern white males -- and even then the Federalist Society would need to figure a way to register the millions of newly minted hayseeds to vote.)
Conservatives should enjoy this Dead Clinger Bounce while the reality-based world permits.
"America's liberal-libertarian mainstream "
Maybe in your world, but I don't believe it has ever been the case that the "mainstream" has ever been liberal-libertarian.
How would you describe the mainstream that shaped generations of American progress since the 1950s or 1960s? If there is a better label for the better Americans who have improved America against the preferences of conservatives throughout my lifetime, I will adopt it.
Great legal analysis, Bruh. It certainly shows you attended a Top Tier school.
They haven't. The only "progress" has been in genocide of whites.
" The only "progress" has been in genocide of whites. "
This is the audience cultivated by conservative law professors operating a white, male, right-wing blog.
Why should the reasoning, educated, modern American mainstream take any of this seriously?
What do the data say about White representation and composition of American society? Is it trending upwards, trending downwards, or remaining flat?
They brag about "demographics being destiny" and then say that it's a fantasy when we point it out.
Compare and Contrast.
"Petitioner International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Inc. (ISKCON), is a not-for-profit religious corporation whose members perform a ritual known as sankirtan. The ritual consists of "`going into public places, disseminating religious literature and soliciting funds to support the religion.'" The primary purpose of this ritual is raising funds for the movement. [cites omitted]
INTERNATIONAL SOC. FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS v. LEE (1992)
No. 91-155
First Amendment permits public solicitation even for religious groups as previous Hari Krishna cases before the Supreme Court held. Here, airport ban on solicitation reasonable over dissent of Souter, Blackmun, Stevens. I assume no practice of religion issue was raised and no justice bothered to mention it. Would the Court today request briefing on this?
Is public "in your face" religious ritual more entitled than private prayer in a public space?
For readers who have not been treated to Hari Krishna street ritual, spectators including children may invited or led into the dance.
I miss the Krishna consciousness folks of my university days.
The Hare Krishna people were not in a position of authority over the random people who might happen by.
When residents of America's advanced, better communities -- educated, reasoning, accomplished, reality-based -- use the conservatives' newly embraced standard to question rather than flatter superstition-based religion in the public square, how are Republicans going to react? I sense conservatives have not considered this question in their zeal to try to take our society backward as quickly and far as they can.
If it's not a big deal, then it wouldn't be a big deal to not pray in such an obviously performative manner. If it wasn't a big deal for Cranston High School West in Rhode Island to have a large "School Prayer" mural in its auditorium, then it wouldn't be a big deal to remove or alter it. Most of the prayer in that case is really general, it was only that it starts "Our Heavenly Father" and finishes with "Amen" that makes it a prayer. Remove those four words and no one would have objected. If it shouldn't be a big deal to atheists among the students for the prayer to be there, then it shouldn't be a big deal to remove those four words, right?
Apparently it was, as the student that ended up suing over it got death threats and was even escorted to school by a police officer for a time, until she requested not to because it was drawing even more negative attention. The state representative for the area even said of her, "What an evil little thing. Poor thing," he told local talk radio station WPRO. "And it's not her fault. She's being ... trained to be like that." As if her peers berating and threatening her (for availing herself of her right to petition the government for a redress of grievances) weren't "trained to be like that".
The truth is that all of these things, from giant crosses in the middle of roads, Ten Commandment monuments, "In God We Trust" on our money, and very public prayers by publicity-seeking football coaches have both the effect and intention of making that religion the dominant one and synonymous with being a good citizen. They are acts of pure tribalism, and the anger and resentment when these Christians are challenged on it makes that all the more difficult to deny.
Exactly right.
The sense of being entitled to have evangelical Christianity treated as a quasi-official American religion is ridiculous.
Perhaps the only thing fading faster than organized religion in America -- in my community, the Catholic Church announces consolidation of dying churches and closure of declining schools at least once each year -- is old-timey bigotry.
Time will sift this.
This coach was anything but quiet. He sought out media.
There should be some tolerance for religious expression. The boundary isn't offense, but imposition.
0:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD58DQ7OHT0
The anti-religious folks want courts to look at "indirect" coercion because it's easy to claim anything is indirect coercion. Just like indirect discrimination (disparate impact), indirect establishment (endorsement) and all kinds of other made up things because they can't get their way otherwise.
Or maybe they were looking at indirect coercion because prior SCOTUS decisions required them to do so. Of course everyone but SCOTUS is bound by prior decisions. SCOTUS is bound by nothing.
Reminds me of a time when the Wisconsin based Freedom from Religion Foundation sent a letter to a local city arguing that they felt excluded by a sign that literally said "The churches of WELCOME you"
Funny, it doesn't seem remotely like the same thing to me.
The letter should have been sent by the Wisconsin based Freedom from Incomplete Prepositional Phrases Foundation.
Just a word to the pro-religionists, lest you suppose your insistence of public displays of religion advances your cause. One of the most vivid memories from my childhood came the first day of third grade, when our teacher announced that henceforth, when we said the pledge of allegiance, we would recite, "One nation under God, etc."
I had already been indoctrinated to say the Lord's Prayer every morning, and resented it. But I took that as manifestation of a continuity from a bygone era, so did not draw further conclusions. The surprise addition to the pledge suggested to me that religion was actively advancing in the school system, with a tendency toward takeover. I never got over it. From that moment I was confirmed as a life-long opponent of all public manifestations of religion under government auspices.
I am grateful for that experience now. I think my 3rd-grade judgment has proved correct.
The two things I don't understand from this decision. How does the majority simply ignore the finding of fact in this case that there was coercion? And what tenet of Kennedy's religion required him to pray in public on the 50 yard line?
As I posted above, I thought coercion wasn't raised in the lower courts. Religious practice is personal and need not be supported by an official tenet.
If that is the case, is there any limiting factor at all? Can an individual claim anything as a personal religious practice? I'm not asking a rhetorical question, I just don't understand how that works. As for the coercion finding, I answered you above.
The limitation is sincerity. Courts can inquire whether the person is making shit up in order to avoid obeying the law. However, courts are not allowed to inquire whether the claimed religious practice is reasonable or logical. To do so would require courts to interpret religious doctrine which runs head long into the Establishment Clause (that's one application of the clause conservatives like).
" However, courts are not allowed to inquire whether the claimed religious practice is reasonable or logical. "
If reason or logic were relevant, no superstition-based claim could survive.
Okay, thanks for that explanation. Makes sense.
The truth is that Kennedy did not "Pray quietly by himself." It was done quite openly and with a kneeling crowd of players around him. He was also known to proselytize in the locker room. He wanted to generate test case on religious freedom, and he got one. Like Jesus, I have never cared for ostentatious displays of religiosity. To wit, Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."
"He was also known to proselytize in the locker room. He wanted to generate test case on religious freedom, "
He was suspended for that.
The libs always like to play offended. That is why it is so much fun to own them.
You think this offense is all bad faith playacting?
It's just a prayer. Fine. Then if he drops a player and the evident reason for dropping is that the kid didn't pray, he can be personally sued and fired.
It was at a Y camp in Cloudcroft, New Mexico. About 1965. Kids found out somehow I was jewish. I will never forget two hundred or so circling kids screaming at me at the bonfire, "He killed jesus." I hadn't killed anyone and only had a vague idea of their savior but no matter. Things got very scary, very Lord of the Flies. It was at that point that I figured out that I had nothing but contempt for the majority and their religion. And would be quite happy to live my life without them. Never forget the strong pull of assimilation and coercion, the pressure it takes to be different and a religious minority. The rrecent decision will not make things any easier.
Christians like Blackman cheer this decision because if a professor or coach led a Muslim prayer before games they would promptly get the school to fire him or the kids to quit the team.
The Christians like the destruction of the establishment clause because it only helps their clause. Christians are the majority in every state legislature so where will the money go to help? The majority of private religious schools are affiliated with Christians.
They may be your neighbors, and generally professional, but they're absolutely the propaganda wing of the government, whether or not you view the government as an evil force. Forget about Civics class?
Public schools in American were adopted in imitation of the Prussian education system. Specifically for purposes of indoctrination. Liking the doctrine doesn't change that.
The teachers are suffering as much as the kids from these Chinese Commie inspired school boards and administrators. Zero tolerance for woke. It is a masking ideology for an attack from the inside on our nation by servants of the Chinese Commie Party. They are being sponsored by the tech billionaires kowtowing to the Chinese Commie Party to gain access to their market and to enrich themselves even more. Zero tolerance for kowtowing by tech billionaires.
Because the lawyer profession is doing nothing about this kowtowing, only public self help remains. It should visit both the tech billionaires and the woke internal traitors.
What doesn't matter what the facts are, it only matters what he feels about it.
haha yeah that's all it is, just a casual mention!
Nothing else at all, like literally, hahaha yea!
No one cares about a gay teacher mentioning his same sex partner, and that's not what Florida's parental rights prohibits. It prohibits him from talking to his 5 year old students about how great it feels when he and his "husband" play, and from grooming them to try to join in the fun.
There's no compulsion. This guy chose to pray by himself. Others chose to join him. At no point was anybody compelled to do anything, there were just vague mutterings about feeling coerced. if you don't want to pray, then don't pray. If anybody was retaliated against for not praying, then there's your lawsuit. So at absolute maximum, this wasn't ripe yet. In reality, this was mostly hostility to religion, as demonstrated by the school bending over backwards to come up with some reason to ban an employee from private prayer.
They are not just mentioning their degenerate lifestyles. They grooming our kids into butt banging starting in 7th grade.
"It’s not about offense so much as compulsion. The same people that think a gay teacher mentioning his same sex partner is going to turn his students gay suddenly can’t get the concern about how one’s coach engaging in such a public spectacle of his faith might make his players feel compelled to go along."
1) Law did not do that
2) Law was for kids 8 yrs and below...
It really is impossible for you to imagine the job actually being indoctrination, so that a code of professional ethics doesn't stop you from indoctrinating, isn't it?
Seriously, I've seen some of the idiot math techniques they teach in the local schools, like teaching the kids to approximate answers they could just solve exactly as easily. If a code of professional ethics doesn't get in the way of "new math", it really doesn't have any relevance to the content of the teaching.
Once again it’s like you don’t understand social psychology at all.
As I understand it, the coach was under suspension, and his appearance at the school event violated the rules of that suspension. He should have been fired for that regardless of what he was doing on the 50-yard line. The district raised a problem that it should not have,
So private prayer is banned because some players might choose to join him and some might not, some might feel compelled (or not), then he might retaliate against those who don't, then retaliation might be hard to prove, so therefore all prayer is banned. This is an incredibly overbroad remedy based solely off a chain of speculation.
Queenie hates America. It hates righteousness. It hates our way of life. It is with Mao's stale, bogus criticism of America from the 1960's.
You realize that that's the same argument conservatives use against leftist professors spewing off their political rants.
"Kids whose playing time depends on the subjective decisions of the coach are naturally going to feel compelled to join him, retaliation is going to be difficult to prove."
...but teachers discussing their "alternative" lifestyles to 8 yr olds has no possible negative repurcussions.
You've raised this point, but neither the majority nor dissent cited to group psychology or expert witnesses w/r/t same. The word psychology doesn't even appear. I'm not going to ban private prayer, even if others choose to pray at the same time, solely because of speculation on social psychology that's beyond the record of the case. If the school district needed to retain an expert on this topic because it's somehow relevant, then they should have. They didn't.
You are denying coercion y denying psychology.
Willful blindness doesn’t change reality.
Not private prayer.
The guy was intentionally making a great public show. He refused a deal whereby he could have prayed, on the field, after the players had left.
The decision is based on a lie.
A gay male sexually minded kiss is pretty off putting to the average, normal male. Queenie loves those, they are so romantic.
"the same folks wigging out over a brief same sex kiss in a Disney film"
How dare people opt to not consume content they wish not to.
I'm not saying "new math" is indoctrination. I'm saying that a code of professional ethics doesn't seem to have any bearing on the content one professionally teaches, and "new math" is an example of that.
Great comment, Bruh.
That's because freedom of religion was intended for Christians only. Read what the founders wrote.
Hi, Rhoid. Here is a suggestion, Bruh. Propose a mosque be built next to your homeless encampment. Then be subjected to a call to prayer 5 times a day from a booming loudspeaker that reaches the entire town, all day on 2 holidays. Night, night, Bruh.
If you need a psychologist to establish 'coercion' you're not talking coercion anymore, at most you might be talking peer pressure or influence.
Someone who calls this "private prayer" is not "denying" things; he's just a liar. This guy made a big spectacle of it, and then when told to knock it off deliberately made a huge spectacle of it.
I'm not denying psychology, but just like chemistry or biology it's something you need an expert witnesses for. If the school proferred expert testimony on group psychology, then where in the record can I find it? Neither the majority nor dissent refers to it, but that doesn't mean it's not in the record somewhere. If this is the key in the case and everybody just overlooked it for some reason, then show me what everybody else missed.
Great comment, Bruh.
I've seen some of the idiot math techniques they teach in the local schools,
OK.
What does that have to do with indoctrination?
Jfc.
Normal people base their conclusions on the facts.
You start with conclusions and then conjure up facts that suit you.
Bellmore, a habit and skill to approximate mentally calculations of large numbers is an indispensable aspect of critical thinking. Working everything out exactly, while reading the news, is generally not a thing.
The liberals don't want to wait until 7th grade. They want to start grooming kids in Montessori kindergarten.
How do you know?
You don't like the techniques, don't think they are a good way to teach math. I might even agree, or not.
But maybe consider the case for them, or just that the educators genuinely believe they are valuable. Instead, you immediately assume that no one could possibly think that and that therefore anyone teaching these methods is behaving unprofessionally, unethically, etc.
As always, you find it impossible to believe that those you disagree with are operating in good faith.
No, it's not.
Brett said the same thing. But, I don't see that in the record. It appears to me he was sanctioned for prayers said after he coached a game.
So either the guy genuinely believes that God would be more likely to tell him to go fuck himself if he prayed alone in private, or the guy is just a groomer.
Why else does he need to make a public display of his personal proclivities?
It likely is not in the court record because the complaint was that he violated the rule against praying rather than for disobeying suspension rules.
I recall that JB may have posted that a few days ago.
Not coercion, but grooming, right?
I think it would be funny if the opposing coach prayed on the 50 yard line holding hands with another man that he introduced to the spectators as his husband. Isn't a public display of your joyous appreciation for the Lord's love, and the love he's granted you, just the best thing to show the kids?
To be clear I have no problem with the coach praying or juggling or displaying whatever other talent he wants to show off on the field, as long as it doesn't interfere with the game.
But his psychological motivation does pique my curiosity. He gets something out of it that he wouldn't get from private prayer. He either thinks God ignores people who pray in their office, or he just NEEDS the audience for some reason. Like a guy who masturbates in public. I see no practical advantage to it so there must be a far more interesting motive at play.
If you are correct, then he wasn't coaching the games of 10/16, 10/23 or 10/26 (the three instances he was punished for that led to this case). From Gorsuch's recitation of the facts, that doesn't sound right. I'd like to see a citation to the contrary.
How I know is that I'm an engineer who uses math on a daily basis, and I had to tutor my brother's kids in math while they were in college, to repair the damage done their math skills by 'new math'. I've seen first hand the damage being done to my own son's math skills.
No, you don't teach approximation to people who haven't mastered basic skills yet. That just delays their learning the basic skills.
The skill of approximating mental calculations is something that falls out of having mastered doing the actual calculations, and doing them over and over until they become reflex. Which is something you absolutely need to do before you can progress to the next level of math, which those operations are the building bricks for.
My complaint isn't about teaching approximation skills, it's about teaching them before mastery of the actual math skills they approximate, and teaching them in the context of small number calculations where nobody should be even bothering with approximation. You don't teach somebody to approximate 3x3, it just delays their memorizing that 3x3=9.
No reason it can't be both: Most of the fallacies can be perfectly legitimate inductive logic, "fallacies" are about deductive logic, about the sort of logic that actually proves things, and has to have strict rules so that you don't think you've 'proven' something that's perfectly capable of being false.
If your peers are threatening to kill you, sure. If the “coercion’ is just a fear of not being liked, then I don’t think we’re in the realm of anything protected by the establishment clause.