The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Dangers Faced by Illegal Migrants are Caused by Immigration Restrictions
The tragic recent deaths of some 50 migrants in Texas highlights the dangers they face. But those dangers are the products of laws making legal immigration difficult or impossible for most who want to do it.
The recent tragic deaths of some 50 undocumented migrants in a truck in Texas highlight the perils of illegal migration. Republicans such as Texas Gov. Greg Abbott have rushed to blame President Biden's "open border policies." The truth is the exact opposite. Most of the dangers of illegal migration arise precisely because it is illegal. If the US actually had an "open border" policy, these 50 people would almost certainly be alive today. They would not have had to rely on shady smugglers to secretly cross into the United States. They could have just done so openly, using conventional modes of transportation.
Today, we readily understand that most of the crime, violence, and other risks of alcohol Prohibition was the result of prohibition itself. Once alcohol sales became legal again, people who wanted to purchase beer or wine didn't have to rely on Al Capone and other criminals to obtain it, and didn't face any significant risk of violence or fraud in the process of doing so. And there was no longer a vast illegal market for organized crime to exploit.
Alcohol prohibition created opportunities for criminals and con artists, some of whom did morally reprehensible things as a result. But the greatest share of blame for what happened belongs to the government officials who enacted Prohibition in the first place. Much the same is true of the War on Drugs - and our current regime of immigration prohibition.
Economist Bryan Caplan, author of the excellent book Open Borders, has a helpful post making the point in greater detail:
I recently finished teaching my Immigration class at the University of Palermo. During the last week, we visited a Catholic charity that helps Sicily's migrants. The workers seemed like nice people, but they were deeply economically illiterate. They didn't have a bad word to say about the Italian government, the organization that makes immigration a presumptive crime. Quite the opposite…
Don't imagine, however, that the charity workers were all-forgiving. They were eager to condemn two sets of allegedly monstrous villains.
First, human smugglers.
Second, farmers who hire illegal workers.
Why? The argument, in both cases, comes down to: Smugglers and farmers make lots of money by treating migrants terribly.
To be clear, I'm the first to admit that illegality partially undermine businesses' standard incentives to do a good job. Not only are you unable to sue an illegal business for poor behavior. Far more importantly, reputational incentives are less potent in illegal markets. If you run the best grocery store in your area, you're the talk of the town, and get rich. If you run the best human smuggling operation in your area, word travels softly and slowly - and maybe lands you on the radar of the authorities.
Still, even illegal markets often deliver the goods. Indeed, that is the norm.
The charity workers talked as if human smugglers' standard procedure was to rob and murder their customers. But if this is so, how did millions of people successfully cross from North Africa to Europe? Furthermore, without illegal employment, what would illegal immigrants do after they arrive?
Yes, some smugglers just take migrants' money, then vanish. Yes, some farmers promise to pay migrants for work, then stiff them. Normally, however, illegal businesses fulfill their promises.
If you're already a comfortable legal resident of the First World, you'll probably be horrified by the content of these promises…. Smugglers charge thousands of Euros to move migrants on rickety boats. Farmers pay two Euros an hour, plus substandard room and board, to migrant workers. When I insisted that, "This is still much better than nothing," the charity workers were appalled. Migrants aren't making the best of a bad situation; they're being "roped-in" by vicious criminals.
To be blunt, I'm right and they're wrong. Yes, human smugglers charge high prices. Yes, farmers pay low wages. But the reason for these unfavorable market conditions is the oppression of the Italian government. Under open borders, migrants would travel by safe commercial channels - and be free to shop around for their best job option. It is the Italian government that pushes migrants into the shadows. And doing business in the shadows is a great burden. For transport, this means low supply and high fees. For employment, this means low demand and low wages.
What is true of Italian migration restrictions is also true for the United States. Our policies make it nearly impossible for most would-be migrants to enter legally. As a result, people wishing to flee horrific poverty and oppression have little choice but to try to enter illegally, which in turn often requires dealing with smugglers. If they want to support themselves after entry, they have to deal with employers willing to hire people illegally.
As in almost any illegal market, some of the participants are likely to be unscrupulous criminals and swindlers (though, as Bryan notes, the majority keep their promises). And, as in the case of Prohibition, by far the best way to cut back on the role of criminals and swindlers in an illegal market is legalization.
Some advocate addressing the bad behavior of unscrupulous employers by adopting "employer-only" approaches to immigration enforcement. For reasons I summarized here, that is both unjust and likely to cause great harm to migrants, not just their would-be employers. In a November 2020 post, I made the case against the common "I'm for legal immigration" trope against liberalizing immigration restrictions.
Obviously, it is still possible to argue for immigration restrictions based on the theory that governments have an inherent right to exclude people, or that exclusion is needed to prevent some great harm immigration might cause. I don't try to address such theories here, though I do take them up in detail in my book Free to Move. But if you support large-scale immigration restrictions for such reasons, you have to accept the fact that the resulting prohibition regime will predictably lead to tragedies like the one that just occurred in Texas. If you want to justify restrictions, nonetheless, you need to show that the benefits achieved are at least great enough to outweigh these awful costs.
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Our laws against murder make it very difficult for those who want to kill others to do so.
I want to thank Ilya for joining me in scapegoating the dumbass lawyer profession for all social pathologies. Finally. He gets it.
Alcohol prohibition created opportunities for criminals and con artists, some of whom did morally reprehensible things as a result. But the greatest share of blame for what happened belongs to the government officials who enacted Prohibition in the first place. Much the same is true of the War on Drugs - and our current regime of immigration prohibition.
Alcohol is the most toxic substance to behavior. Half the suicides are drunk, as are half the murder victims, and half the murderers. Half the car crashers are drunk. Most crime is while drunk, and every other task and function is highly impaired. Prohibition markedly improved health, dropped crime, and made the economy soar.
End the War on Drugs, dumbass lawyer? 100000 overdose deaths a year. These will soon end crime, and cause massive lawyer unemployment.
Open borders will result in hideous damage to all Democrat constituents.
But I understand. Ilya needs replace the 100000 Democrats being killed by overdose after ending the War on Drugs. He also needs to keep up the crime rate to avoid lawyer unemployment. Thus, he proposes to import a bunch of instant Democrats to vote in our elections. This is like Cali. Illegales should have driver licenses. At the time of getting a driver licenses, one is automatically registered as a Democrat. One's votes is then harvested and dumped at 3 AM in a number just over that needed to keep Cali a permanent one party state. Ilya wants to take this Cali act national.
Again, and again. Did that professor in Italy or Ilya in the US suggest importing professors willing to work for one quarter their salaries? Did they offer to house them on their streets? Until that happens, both are hypocrites who should be dismissed.
You're right, maliciously ending the life of a fellow human and being in present in a place without the requisite government paperwork are the exact same thing, and must be enforced with equivalent vigor.
It's really simple. Come here legally or don't come at all.
Everything is "really simple" when you're a simpleton. Normal, decent people don't think that death is a deserved outcome for a nonviolent technical infraction that amounts to a failure to comply with government red tape.
Depends on how you view the situation. The potential of death is quite a deterrent, in fact it's the ultimate one. I reject the very premise that is should be nice and safe for anyone who wants to come here to be able to do so. Every person found on that truck, or in the border area desert who dies on the way in had a choice. Each and every one of them would be alive today had they either chose to not cross illegally, or did so the legal way. Just like someone who choses to drive drunk and then wraps themself around a tree, I have little sympathy for those who make poor decisions and then suffer tragedy. The last thing we should be doing is saving people from their own stupidity.
Let me be clear, I have absolutely no problem with people who wish to come here legally. My wife is an immigrant from the UK. We do not know for certain, but there is strong circumstantial evidence I was born in Ireland (I am adopted).
I don't know how to make it more plain that the United States has borders, just like every single other country in the world, and that we have both the right and desire to control who enters, and who doesn't. I just wish our institutions had more will.
You should count yourself lucky that you've managed to live such a frictionless life that you could write something like that without feeling immense shame. Many people aren't so fortunate. These are simply regular people trying to make a bit of money for their families. They've harmed no one. If they committed an infraction - and that's a big if - they should pay a fine, not be killed. To defend this outcome is nothing short of barbarism.
Frictionless??!! Surely you jest. My father was laid off during the Pittsburgh collapse of steel. It left us destitute and eventually destroyed my family growing up. The last 14 years has been and endless parade of lawsuits, a complete housefire, medical crisis on both of our parts requiring multiple surgeries, ridiculous COVID restrictions essentially destroying our business, and lastly an new Administration so hostile to our industry recovery does not seem likely.
I own the world's smallest violin and it playing for everyone who thinks just because they have it bad that's an excuse to illegally sneak in.
If they committed an infraction - and that's a big if - they should pay a fine, not be killed.
Who killed them?
And just to be clear, any other nonviolent crimes for which death is an appropriate deterrent? Tax evasion? Wage theft? Securities fraud? Or is this a principle applicable to only a certain class of people?
I am in favor of the death penalty for any pol who accepts any political contributions; simple bribery of pols would only result of removal of genitals and sterilization.
Now here's a solution to Citizens United I can work with! I love reaching across the aisle to find commonsense, bipartisan solutions.
Only problem with the sterilization bit - what's going to deter the Dem politicians? They've already got no balls! [insert late-night laugh track].
I think drunk driving is a very good comparison. We won't execute someone for it, but if someone gets drunk and then gets themselves killed, the problem isn't the law against drunk driving.
If you break into a power station and get yourself electrocuted on a transformer, the problem isn't the law against trespass.
When laws exist, people sometimes die when they break them. The problem isn't the law. The problem is people act unsafely while violating the law.
There is generally no causal connection between the law against drunk driving and a drunk driver crashing.
Illegals taking crazy risks to hide is directly caused by the law.
I think the OP is an argument from emotionalism, but your analogy doesn't wash.
"Illegals taking crazy risks to hide is directly caused by the law."
Rather, it's directly caused by their decision to violate it. Look at all the millions of people in South America who didn't die in that truck; The law subjected them to no danger at all!
A law that creates an enforcement regime that incentivizes dangerous behavior is not great.
All that proves though is that immigration law needs reform, not that it needs to end. Again, I don't agree with the OP's thesis, but the arguments against it here are...not good.
"And just to be clear, any other nonviolent crimes for which death is an appropriate deterrent? Tax evasion? Wage theft? Securities fraud? Or is this a principle applicable to only a certain class of people?"
You're aware that the government did not actually kill any of them, right?
If you violate a law and die in the process of doing so, it does not invalidate the law.
"I have little sympathy for those who make poor decisions and then suffer tragedy. The last thing we should be doing is saving people from their own stupidity. "
Similarly, I think strong hospitals in modern, successful cities should stop accepting downscale patients from our deplorable, parasitic, uneducated backwaters. Why squander resources on people who chose to live in can't-keep-up communities, contribute relatively little to our society, are immoral losers, and are mostly awaiting replacement?
I have little sympathy for the clingers who made poor decisions -- from tobacco and street pills to inadequate education and bigotry, from superstition and ignorance to more bigotry and insularity -- throughout their worthless lives and expect their betters to bail them out when they need professionalism, expertise, experience, credentials, and modernity.
(We should ensure a strong lifeline for young people who wish to escape the desolate backwaters and seek modernity, education, opportunity, and civilization that must be found elsewhere. No decent person blames a minor for having losers for parents, and we will need all of the educated, high-character, reasoning citizens we can get.
But the adults? Who stuck with dying towns and declining industries against all evidence. Who chose quick pocket money over a solid education? Who chose to have children before ready to lead or fund a family? Who see street pills, televangelists, bigotry, guns, Donald Trump, lottery tickets, cheap sixers, faith healers, sketchy disability claims, more bigotry, and tobacco as solutions to their self-inflicted problems? They're write-offs.)
For the most part I agree with almost every one of your points, even if they were in some part tongue in cheek.
Maybe . . . until you need transport to a Level 1 trauma center from your particular corner of the sticks, which has leaked all of its smart and worthwhile young people to my neighborhood for at least 50 years . . .
. . .at which point you'll be hoping that helicopter or ambulance can travel past generations of rural dysfunction fast enough to give you a chance to overcome your lousy decisions.
Cool comment, Bruh. Very lawyerly. I can see the effect of your Top Tier training.
And he didn’t say it was a deserved outcome. You read way to much into what he said. Can you actually respond to his point without all the exaggeration?
"Come here legally or don't come at all" isn't a point, it's a vacuous slogan. And if you doubt that he meant that they deserved what they got, read his subsequent comments.
OK, Beavis And Butthead have more legal sense.
Except he didn’t say they were exactly the same. He applied Somin’s logic to a different situation.
I question that statement.
One word. Chicago.
This would probably be a boon to the right. Migrants often very quickly turn Republican when welcomed.
You break the law you face danger. Not enforcing the existing law breeds contempt and confusion and increases that danger.
But if that law causes more problems than the thing it bans, it should be modified or repealed.
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution."
--Ulysses S. Grant
It's causing problems for people who aren't supposed to be here, and who can avoid the problems by not coming here, so those problems DON'T COUNT.
It's like saying putting barbed wire around your property when you live in a bad neighborhood might injure burglars. Yeah, so?
I'm not seeing the "problem" here. There are laws against entering the country illegally. These people found in Texas obviously will not be entering illegally. They knew to potential when they chose to illegally enter. They took their chances and paid the price.
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Not Ashli Babbitt. Not anymore.
And a bunch of her un-American right-wing pals won't be around for a while, either -- until the warden lets those traitorous losers out.
Sick MotherF*cker.
You dislike references to right-wing hypocrisy and conservatives' un-American conduct?
Are you still whininh about how Kyle Rittenhouse wasted those three nitwits?
Ah C'mon(Man!)
Rittenhouse was GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
of Littering,
all responsible shooters clean up their trash when they're done.
Dammit, I was gonna say "Floyd George and Tray-Gone Martin"
Then you're a sociopath. Your kid climbs over the neighbor's fence at night and jumps in their swimming pool, where he is promptly electrocuted by the trap set by the neighbor for trespassers. "Well, trespassing is illegal. He shouldn't have done it; if he hadn't, he'd still be alive."
They're just typical right-wing Christians, demonstrating why conservatism and organized religion are fading in modern, educated, reasoning, improving America.
There's no trap here. It's like, if my kid climbed over the neighbor's fence at night to swim in their pool, fell off the fence and hit his head, and drowned. I'd be VERY unhappy, but I wouldn't blame the neighbor. Or think the neighbor was obligated to tear down his fences to avert such accidents.
Dammit, that's a great idea.
So just to be clear, Bevis notwithstanding, they got what they deserved?
Wouldn't say that, more like Evil-lution. In 10 billion years Mexicans will have more sense.
"All human life is sacred" mfs when the life is outside a woman's body.
You’re projecting really really bad. This has absolutely nothing to do with abortion and the vast majority of people don’t think these poor people got what they had coming.
I agree that the vast majority of people don't think that. But I wasn't responding to the vast majority of people - I was responding to the commenter that found this result defensible because "You break the law you face danger."
There are laws against entering the country illegally. These people found in Texas obviously will not be entering illegally.
No, that is some callousness well beyond a statement of fact- that guy has dehumanized these dead people and deserves to be called on it.
That was somebody else and a post that I didn’t read. I was referring to the top comment regarding the murder law. The original guy didn’t make a subsequent post so he didn’t take the “what they deserved” attitude.
I’m not going to defend the guy you quoted. He appears to be a prick who has sacrificed his humanity on the alter of politics.
I’ve lived in Texas since Nixon was president so I’ve been around a lot of illegals and don’t understand the vitriol toward them. Yeah they shouldn’t be here but for the most part they’re just want to work and are willing to work very hard. Any of us in their shoes would do the same as they have.
Fair enough - I guess I missread the threading; I still can't quite follow, but such is this system.
My feeling on illegals is not that they're proto-Democrats or any such nonsense. It's that America exploits the hell out of them as cheap, unregulated labor in a bunch of sectors. It really is a crap system where they are almost like a peasant caste within our country.
I would very much like to reform our immigration laws with some of the goal being to prevent this from happening as much as it does. But the hatred of the victims means the reform envisioned by the right tends to be based on pretty open bigotry, reveling in oppressive police state tactics when they're not needlessly cruel to the folks who are the victims of the system.
Far too much yearning discussion of walls and armed guards and an internal police force dedicated solely to deportations.
I'm really trying to understand your view here, but I think you may have inadvertently inverted part of your statement, "when they're not needlessly cruel to the folks who are the victims of the system." Did you mean "when they''re needlessly cruel...?"
Anyway, it's not fair or logical to ascribe to bigotry immigration policy preferences of those you disagree with. I am a conservative but not a bigot! I have a mixed-race, mixed-ethnicity family, and I'm happy with it! I don't care what race or ethnicity prospective immigrants may be, I only care that we make sensible policies that don't unduly burden (financially) those who are already here! So, no indigents, no people coming here only for the welfare opportunities; people who are, can be, will be productive members of society. People without serious communicable diseases. People without serious criminal histories, chronic health issues, including mental health. And maybe only senior people who are financially independent. Let all of these people in! But, also, let's end the B.S. of SNAP, WIC, EITC, Social Security benefits regardless of payments in, disability payments for anyone, Medicaid for anyone/everyone, public housing, rent control, rent stabilization, requirements that developers set aside "affordable" housing units, school lunch, school breakfast, summertime meals for kids, and all of these other welfare and welfare through he tax code programs. Let's have a country of people who support themselves.
"reveling in oppressive police state tactics when they're not needlessly cruel to the folks who are the victims of the system" means too many on here like both options.
Yeah, the bigotry seems largely based on status, not race. But look below at the 75 IQ bullshittery.
I also think your purely utilitarian immigration regime is a bad one. Merit can come from all walks of life. The idea that an indigent immigrant can't become a productive member of society betrays quite a worldview. And what about their kids?
And your idea of fucking the social safety net so it only helps the better off is incredibly awful. Just a level of wealth as merit not seen even in Dickensian England.
What society denies help to their most in need? Because the poor are going to generally be the most in need.
Your vision looks most like a Hunger Games like aristocratic spoils system.
I don't think they got what they had coming. I think WE had no obligation to avert it by opening our borders.
This headline is really silly, far to vague and emotional to be worth anything.
On the one hand, do we get to blame the 100 million victims of socialism for not obeying socialist laws?
On the other hand, do we get to blame the plight of imprisoned thieves, rapists, and murderers on the laws against theft, rape, and murder?
You clearly do not make your living selling advertising on the internet.
Only for those who are xxFx personality types. Those of us who are "T" are un-swayed by emotional appeals.
By Gad Sir, I haven't received such a complement since I quit my last job!
But if that law causes more problems than the thing it bans, it should be modified or repealed.
The law isn't causing the problems. The lack of enforcement is.
It's very simple.
If the law is repealed the problems from the thing that it bans will increase by several orders of magnitude.
But if that law causes more problems than the thing it bans, it should be modified or repealed.
It's not causing problems. The decision to attempt to evade it is.
It won’t be modified because one side insists on a wall and genuine enforcement and the other side thinks they can scheme and cheat and break oaths of office and keep getting away with it until… some future time when they somehow decisively win elections.
"If the US actually had an "open border" policy, these 50 people would almost certainly be alive today."
Poppycock. Consider the 1.4 billion people in Africa, and the 1.3 billion in India, for example. If we had open borders, it would be chaos, failed mass migrations, and perhaps the biggest die-off of people in history. By the end of this century, Africa is expected to grow to nearly 5 billion, and it sounds like it will be an absolute hell for those people. Would you open the borders to all of them?
Open borders are a humane proposition, only in cases where the population of immigrant wannabes is very small compared to the existing population.
No longer joking. Maybe we need imperialism or colonialism again. If a nation doesn't get its freedom act together in a century, go in, kill the leaders, kill ths corruption keeping it poor because nobody can do anything without payoffs.
"How dare you!" How dare I what? Dictatorship and corruption are rampant. How dare you continue to support it!
Or take them on as a new US state. Yes, Puerto Rico is a warning story that corruption is hard to tamp down, but so is New York.
The population will want to join. Just the leaders having their gravy train won't. They will bleat loudly of self-determination, the same way the Joker was practicing self-determination with his thugs over the other citizens in the bank at the beginning of Batman. Idiots in the West will agree with them, because it's different from hostages, they say, threading the needle to avoid neurosis, the attempt by the mind to hold two contradictory facts as true simultaneously.
Hahaha, just joking!
Yeah, our recent forays into nation building worked great. Almost as well as in the 1960s.
Are you blind to history?
They will bleat loudly of self-determination, the same way the Joker was practicing self-determination with his thugs over the other citizens in the bank at the beginning of Batman.
Jesus fuck. Read more Kant.
By way of comparison, the numbers drown at sea UN the Mediterranean is a staggering amount, in the thousands per year.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1082077/deaths-of-migrants-in-the-mediterranean-sea/
Perhaps these Mediterranean deaths were less avoidable than those coming from Mexico. But it does show the great extent immigrants are willing to go to risk there own lives to make the move for better prospects.
It's interesting to compare that willingness to uproot and risk their lives for a chance at a better one to American citizens who cant' find it in them to move to a different city for better schools, safer streets, lower costs of living, etc.
"if you support large-scale immigration restrictions for such reasons, you have to accept the fact that the resulting prohibition regime will predictably lead to tragedies like the one that just occurred in Texas"
I do and I have.
Somin is wrong about Prohibition and Open Borders. Crime in Al Capone's Chicago was minor compared to what it is today. Somin is just inviting criminals into the USA.
I thought the standard line—deployed in response to arguments for more robust physical security at the border—was that most people who are in the country illegally entered legally and then overstayed?
That used to be true years ago. Now we have the highest number of illegal border crossings in decades.
Aren't would-be migrants a completely different cohort than those who overstay their visas?
Not completely different, obviously, because some people who overstay their visas are would-be migrants. Which is why it's incredibly hard to get tourist visas from countries where people are prone to do that.
The main difference is that most of the illegal border crossers are from places where you can travel to the US overland. Not all, of course, there's a significant fraction of people who flew in to Mexico in order to walk over our border.
Whereas visa overstaying is the preferred approach to illegal immigration for people who have to fly here, because you need the visa to avoid being instantly caught or turned back.
But, yes, visa overstays have at least been subject to some minimal vetting, unlike the people who illegally cross the border. There is that much difference.
some people who overstay their visas are would-be migrants.
They're already migrants, not would-be.
The point is that noscitur's contradiction assumes two cohorts are the same and they are not.
No, the tragic deaths are the product of people like Ilya Somin who constantly encourage migrants to enter the country illegally.
There are only two ways to stop illegal immigration and tragic deaths like this.
1. Let everyone in. (Prof Somin's preferred option)
2. Close the border. Get rid of the incentive by immediately expelling everyone who enters illegally.
Option #1 can work for awhile, even decades, but not forever. It can last until the country cannot support any more people, or it has been reduced to third world status so it's no longer attractive to migrants.
You can start with option #1 or option #2. But whichever option you choose, all roads eventually lead to option #2. It would be better to do it now rather than later.
Option #1 worked from 1607 all the way to 1914, with a minor Asian road bump in, I think, the 1880s.
You mean when international travel was impossibly expensive for almost everybody?
You mean back when the US population was a small % of what it is now, and there were millions of acres of unexplored territory and virgin wilderness? Before there were any problems with enough fresh water?
Does he mean before we had a rather expensive social welfare net?
No, he means before the US ran out of Native American land to steal.
So back before there was a welfare state to take care of the migrants, their children and those displaced by their coming?
Should have "Remained in May-He-Co"
How is it that your home is your castle but your home country isn't?
Because a country is not owned. The government represents the people, and the those people own individual parcels. The last governments to own entire countries were feudal kings.
That ought to be clear enough even for Bumble to understand.
I think you'll find that ownership consists of a bundle of rights, and that you don't have the entire bundle. Unless you've got an allodial title to the property, which isn't a thing in most countries, and certainly not in the US.
The important point of ownership is not a slip of paper in a filing cabinet. It's on the power to do what you want with your property.
We have many ear-pleasing memes that let corrupt politicians continue to do what they always do: get in the way by telling you what they permit you with your property, to get paid to get back out of the way.
No one alone has the power to do what they want on their property. You need the government to enforce property rights.
The dangers they face are caused by the notorious conspiracy by the President of the US to subvert immigration laws.
So, here's the response Ilya, one which you should seriously consider.
1. Yes, if we had "open borders" this wouldn't have happened. Such a policy is...unlikely...in the near future, but it's something you strive for. In the meantime, however, there are two sub-arguments to consider.
1a. "We need open borders, but until we get that, the current immigration laws should be firmly enforced."
1b. "We need open borders, but until we get that, we should not enforce or weakly enforce the current immigration laws".
In your open borders arguments, you need to consider the sub-arguments and their relative effects.
1a - Firm enforcement. Firm enforcement of the current laws seems harsh. But, it would have effectively prevented this tragedy. By removing the incentive for people to illegally immigrate here, it would've prevented them from coming here in the first place. Moreover, firm enforcement of the current laws would reduce the available illegal labor force...creating a potential drive and demand for more legal immigration, which may ultimately help your goal.
1b - Weak/no enforcement. Weak enforcement seems kind. Why deport illegal immigrants, when they're just trying to get a job? The issue here is, it incentivizes the very illegal border crossings that cause this tragedy. In addition, it creates a large illegal labor force, which effectively reduces any native demand for excess labor....lowering the amount of legal immigration needed. It also creates a large community of people who rely on/exploit the illegal immigrants...and the cheap labor they provide...and the fees they pay. And they are encouraged to have more illegal (but not legal) immigrants.
The paradox here, is that by encouraging weak to minimal enforcement of the current immigration laws, it is detrimental to an open borders policy, or one of more legal immigration. The very policies of minimal enforcement you're pursuing, Ilya, hurt your ultimate goal.
I'm trying to imagine an America where 1a actually happens, and it's laughable. No president, regardless of the letter after their name, is going to make a serious effort to round up farm and factory workers and send them "home".
Why? Same reason why police are never going to bother with wage theft.
Because regardless of their other priorities, keeping corporations happy is the #1 goal of any party.
So your 1a is DOA. Enforcement against employers will always be token at best.
Of course not...
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alabama/articles/2021-10-14/2-convicted-of-sending-undocumented-workers-to-poultry-plant
President Eisenhower did, in Operation Wetback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
We're basically not going to see 1a short of a revolution, or some massive terrorist incident enabled by 1b making its continuance politically impossible. That latter is, unfortunately, all too plausible.
The solution is making Cuba an offer they can’t refuse—spend a few billion building a natural gas pipeline to Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean. In return Cuba holds democratic elections and returns property to exiles in America AND agrees to begin taking asylum seekers that can help them rebuild their country. So the wealthy American exiles will agree to invest in Cuba if their property is returned which will set off over 4% GDP growth for years. So we need a country nearby in which people can get jobs and Cuba is the country with the most untapped potential.
Lawbreakers suffer by breaking the law????
Do tell!!!!!!!
Tell Ashli Babbitt.
You dumbasses claim to believe in miracles, right?
Again, sick motherf*cker.
Thats whey "Reverend" Jerry/Arthur Sandusky is at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
You are a living testimonial to the hazard of legalized drugs.
Alternatively, if we a) increased resources dedicated to preventing illegal entry and to rounding up illegal immigrants both by a factor of twenty; b) made hiring illegal immigrants a strict-liability five-years-in-prison-and-$1-million-fine felony for employers who failed to use E-Verify; and c) made the penalty for adult aliens caught in the US illegally a slow, painful, and widely-broadcast execution, then tragedies like this would also cease happening in quite short order.
No they wouldn't. You would just increase corruption and misery, and not solve a damned thing.
To wit, the War on (Some) Drugs. Drugs are cheaper and easier to get, and usage is more widespread.
That's all you'd get, a War on (Some) Immigrants.
So, you believe, in defiance of all economics, that marginal incentives don't matter? Cool.
Here in reality, it is incredibly obvious that the cause of immigration is not some magical desire to live between the Rio Grande and the 49th Parallel, but the fact that it is more desirable for some people to live as an illegal alien in the US than it is to live in these people's home countries. If you turn down the desirability of living as an illegal alien in the US far enough, the incentive goes down.
The best argument you can make is that American society will not tolerate the actions necessary to turn down the desirability far enough, but, then, I can turn around and respond that American society will similarly not tolerate open borders. That your fantasy scenario would end deaths like the ones outlined above is then no more meaningful than the fact that my fantasy scenario would.
As has been explained over and over again, when you make it super difficult to apply for asylum or whatever (like the re-upping of the COVID blanket immigration ban... which, BTW, I applaud conservatives for finally acknowledging is a grave disease) then you drive people away from safe checkpoints and into the deserts or semis.
The world is getting older and unhealthier and we need a country nearby that experiences over 5% GDP growth that is sustainable. So did you know that after 9/11 there was the Afghanistan economic miracle?? And did you know every Afghani called up their cousin in Pakistan to come back to Afghanistan to get a job and the population doubled?? Unfortunately we built a socialist economy built on handouts from America so the economy inevitably collapsed once we stopped handing out dollars. But in Cuba I believe we could create a sustainable economy that could provide jobs for a population double in size.
We should also make deals with Mexico to buy land on their central plateau so retired Americans can move there and the home health nurses will live in the surrounding community and still be in Mexico. So cost of living would be much cheaper than in Florida and Arizona because air conditioning isn’t necessary on the central plateau and the nurses would be paid less.
You know, this is like arguing that if you put your money in a safe, you're responsible for the safecracker accidently blowing himself up trying to crack it.
The reason it's difficult to get asylum in the US is that we don't have land borders with any countries refugees would typically originate in, and once you pass through your first safe refuge to the next country, you're not a refugee anymore. So very few people showing up at our border have a legitimate claim of asylum.
The reason we have so many people showing up asking for asylum is not because of all the refugees fleeing Mexico and Canada. It's because we're a very desirable destination, and people have been taught that if they're caught sneaking in they can delay being expelled by applying for asylum.
"Dangers Faced by Illegal Migrants are Caused by Immigration Restrictions"
Dangers faced by bank robbers are caused by laws against robbing banks.
Dangers faced by rapists are caused by victims attempting to defend themselves.
'Dangers faced by [criminals] are caused by laws against [crimes].'
So this is just the country itself doing a self defense.
No, actually your analogy sucks and you should feel bad about it.
This is emotionalism and not a great argument, but Jesus the dehumanizing assholes do come out of the woodwork on these stories.
Ad hominem is all you have, Sarcastr0. They analogy is right no. People putting their lives at risk to illegally enter a country is not caused by the law against illegally entering the country. The cause may be noble - a better life, escape from poverty - or it may not be, as in the case of drug runners, grifters, welfare cheats. But the law is not the cause.
Your argument would require dropping all laws and regulations against illegally entering the country, no? What then, if an illegally entering criminal harms someone in the US? Or if an unscreened disease-carrying person enters illegally and infects someone in the US? Then is the murder or infection caused by the lack of law and regulation?
Get real.
I had an argument in the very first sentence - you compare actions involving agents to actions involving nature, as though this nation's land has a will and that will doesn't like illegals.
That's some supernatural blood and soil shit right there, and I presume you don't believe it and just chose a bad analogy.
My argument is not for open borders, it is that your argument is a bad one.
All it would take to avoid this type of tragedy is to enforce the laws we have.
Why it happens is that people believe that if they subject themselves to danger, they will probably survive, and then they will be in.
If, once in, they were denied any benefit from their illegal entry, they would cease illegal entry.
Bingo. Establish a relentlessly enforced policy of expelling every illegal immigrant we find, no matter how long they hid before we found them, and people will largely stop trying to sneak into the country.
Logistics Brett, logistics. I'll only mention goodwill & compassion in passing. Oh & good sense.
Awesome police state, Brett. No notes, what could go wrong?
Continuing to insist on schemes and workarounds instead of negotiating and then faithfully enforcing a compromise immigration law leads us to here.
No one was suffocated or drowned or got heatstroke from a wall.
"The tragic recent deaths of some 50 migrants in Texas highlights the dangers they face. But those dangers are the products of laws making legal immigrant difficult or impossible for most who want to do it."
Possibly, the deaths were caused by the person who locked them in the trailer without food or water.
Possibly the deaths were caused by the decision to violate US laws.
Possibly the deaths were caused by people who thought just because they wanted to do something, it was perfectly safe and reasonable to do that thing.
Possibly the deaths were caused by an administration that lets Mexican cartels run the US border crossing program. ( I particularly enjoy the bleeding hearts who pity these "poor" people who can afford to pay thousands to criminals to get assistance in criminal acts. I could take a week long Caribbean cruise if I had as much money as they do.
You know who else faces dangers? The law-abiding citizen and legal immigrant who suffer at the hands of the 75 average IQ individuals who cross our border illegally each day. Many of these people have three goals for each day and those are to eat, fight, and breed (and not necessarily with a willing partner).
Meanwhile, the communities where the people are bused or flown end up suffering a increase in crime,an increase in the cost and a shortage of affordable housing, and an increase in taxes.
Has the author of this article quit his job yet so it can be given to an illegal? Has he given his home and banking accounts to an illegal? Has he volunteered his own family member to be raped, assaulted, or murdered by an illegal? No? Why not?
Oh, it is just the peasantry who are supposed to suffer from those ill effects. The author will see an increase in income as he hits the law school circuit doing conferences about how the poor migrants have added "diversity" to our nation. And, I suspect he lives in one of those "safe" neighborhoods.
the 75 average IQ individuals who cross our border illegally each day
..
Has he volunteered his own family member to be raped, assaulted, or murdered by an illegal? No? Why not?
Funny how often these discussion veer into nigh-eugenicsy bigotry.
Once every six weeks or so Somin is capable of cranking out a piece that doesn't make me laugh out loud simply by reading the headline. This, of course, isn't one of those weeks.
Weird how many comments on his posts are just attacks on him.
Blackman posts nonsense and people point out why it's nonsense. And to be sure some here are engaging with the (not great) argument in the OP.
But more are just into some ranting about illegals, or Prof. Somin's character or the like.
No one gets the reflexive hate here like Somin.
That's because Blackman is too pitiful to really engender hate.
I think it's because he so clearly refuses to admit the opposition to open borders has any legitimacy. He won't even engage with it, and it's by far the majority viewpoint!
But I don't hate him, I just find his approach to this infuriating.
He absolutely addresses counterarguments in his OPs all the time.
I'm not sure you read his posts.
I have to give this a like. I just always find his point of view to be really ivory tower academic & at considerable remove from the world where people actually live. I have no animosity though. This whole community has a different relationship with words & language than I do. And academic conventions & thinking, along with wonky writing are frequently amusing to me.
American immigration policy is a decades long tragedy of ignorance & greed. The guy that left those people closed up in that trailer to die horribly murdered those people. Like many other times in the past. Two different discussions.
Exactly! We walk together on this one.
Just thought of this one, pretty sure nobody else has,
"IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE, SAFE, LEGAL, and RARE!!!!"
I know allcaps is like shouting, this one needs to be (In Spanish)
Frank/Francisco Drackman
LA INMIGRACIÓN DEBE SER SEGURA, LEGAL Y RARO
As a 66 year-old native & lifelong Texan I have seen the immigration/ illegal worker debate for my whole life. And for that whole time the anti-immigration, "we need to arrest & deport everyone who is here illegally" crowd in concert with the industries that really prefer labor with no rights or recourse have prevented any and all comprehensive immigration policy. Then the Trump administration turned those folks loose. Immigration is the true glory of this country. IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE SAFE, LEGAL, & CELEBRATED! I wish my Spanish was better too.
Two things:
1. people entering need be vetted, for criminality, disease, etc.
2. Open borders are incompatible with a welfare state. If we got rid of SNAP, WIC, EITC, and on and on, I would probably be open to more, and more easy immigration.
C'mon (Man!) Barack Amurica promised that no Immigrants were getting anything, not even an Obama-Phone!
But did he add "period."?