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Bruen's Originalist Analogical Reasoning Applies A Presumption of Liberty
A new framework for originalist judging.
Justice Thomas's majority opinion in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen may be the most important originalist opinion of all time. Its significance surpasses Heller, Crawford, and any other decision that came before it. Rather than trying to cram originalism into pre-existing standards--such as the tiers of scrutiny or a two-step test--Thomas starts from first principles. He employs originalist analogical reasoning. The Court instructs lower courts to determine the validity of a modern-day gun restriction by considering analogous restrictions in the past. But this mode of reasoning is weighted against the government, and follows a presumption of liberty. The state has the burden to justify that its restriction has historical analogues. And more importantly, the government cannot rely on sparse or attenuated historical analogues to meet its burden. Even if the evidence is at equipoise, the tie goes to freedom.
The majority opinion in Bruen methodically walks through this framework, illustrating how to apply it in different contexts.
First, the court must determine if a modern-day regulation is "relevantly similar" to some historical regulations.
Much like we use history to determine which modern "arms" are protected by the Second Amendment, so too does history guide our consideration of modern regulations that were unimaginable at the founding. When confronting such present-day firearm regulations, this historical inquiry that courts must conduct will often involve reasoning by analogy—a commonplace task for any lawyer or judge. Like all analogical reasoning, determining whether a historical regulation is a proper analogue for a distinctly modern firearm regulation requires a determination of whether the two regulations are "relevantly similar." C. Sunstein, On Analogical Reasoning, 106 Harv. L. Rev. 741 (1993).
Second, Thomas highlights two questions that can be used to perform this analogical reasoning:
While we do not now provide an exhaustive survey of the features that render regulations relevantly similar under the Second Amendment, we do think that Heller and McDonald point toward at least two metrics: how and why the regulations burden a law-abiding citizen's right to armed self-defense. As we stated in Heller and repeated in McDonald, "individual self-defense is 'the central component' of the Second Amendment right." Therefore, whether modern and historical regulations impose a comparable burden on the right of armed self-defense [i.e., the how] and whether that burden is comparably justified [i.e., the why] are "'central'" considerations when engaging in an analogical inquiry. McDonald.
Third, in Footnote 7, Justice Thomas clarifies that the originalist analogical inquiry is distinct from means-ends scrutiny:
This does not mean that courts may engage in independent means-end scrutiny under the guise of an analogical inquiry. Again, the Second Amendment is the "product of an interest balancing by the people," not the evolving product of federal judges. Analogical reasoning requires judges to apply faithfully the balance struck by the founding generation to modern circumstances, and contrary to the dissent's assertion, there is nothing "[i]roni[c]" about that undertaking. It is not an invitation to revise that balance through means-end scrutiny.
Fourth, the Court explains how similar the modern regulation must be to the historical analogues:
To be clear, analogical reasoning under the Second Amendment is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check. On the one hand, courts should not "uphold every modern law that remotely resembles a historical analogue," because doing so "risk[s] endorsing outliers that our ancestors would never have accepted." Drummond v. Robinson (CA3 2021). On the other hand, analogical reasoning requires only that the government identify a well-established and representative historical analogue, not a historical twin. So even if a modern-day regulation is not a dead ringer for historical precursors, it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster.
Fifth, as an example, the Court justifies the "sensitive places" analysis from Heller:
Consider, for example, Heller's discussion of "longstanding" "laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings." Although the historical record yields relatively few 18th- and 19th-century "sensitive places" where weapons were altogether prohibited—e.g., legislative assemblies, polling places, and courthouses—we are also aware of no disputes regarding the lawfulness of such prohibitions. See D. Kopel & J. Greenlee, The "Sensitive Places" Doctrine, 13 Charleston L. Rev. 205, 229–236 (2018); see also Brief for Independent Institute as Amicus Curiae. We therefore can assume it settled that these locations were "sensitive places" where arms carrying could be prohibited consistent with the Second Amendment. And courts can use analogies to those historical regulations of "sensitive places" to determine that modern regulations prohibiting the carry of firearms in new and analogous sensitive places are constitutionally permissible.
Sixth, the Court places the burden squarely on the government.
To support that claim, the burden falls on respondents to show that New York's proper-cause requirement is consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only if respondents carry that burden can they show that the pre-existing right codified in the Second Amendment, and made applicable to the States through the Fourteenth, does not protect petitioners' proposed course of conduct.
And the Court will not do the government's homework:
Of course, we are not obliged to sift the historical materials for evidence to sustain New York's statute. That is respondents' burden. Nevertheless, we think a short review of the public discourse surrounding Reconstruction is useful in demonstrating how public carry for self-defense remained a central component of the protection that the Fourteenth Amendment secured for all citizens.
The individual seeking to vindicate his Second Amendment right does not have the burden. And in this case, New York failed to meet that burden.
We conclude that respondents have failed to meet their burden to identify an American tradition justifying New York's proper-cause requirement. Under Heller's text-and-history standard, the proper-cause requirement is therefore unconstitutional. . . .
At the end of this long journey through the Anglo-American history of public carry, we conclude that respondents have not met their burden to identify an American tradition justifying the State's proper-cause requirement.
In constitutional litigation, the assignment of the burden is perhaps the most important choice a court will make. I explored this theme in my article, The Burden of Judging in the NYU Journal of Law & Liberty: "Instead of chiseling out the so-called tiers of scrutiny, accounting for these burdens serves as a more accurate descriptor of the manner in which governments and individuals have their constitutional rights either vindicated or vitiated."
Seventh, the government needs to point to more than some isolated historical analogues to support a restriction. The evidence must be substantial. And if the record is at equipoise, the presumption of liberty breaks the tie.
For example, there is some doubt about how best to read the record in Sir John Knight's Case. In that case, the Court favors the reading that protects a right to keep and bear arms.
The dissent discounts Sir John Knight's Case, because it only "arguably" supports the view that an evil-intent requirement attached to the Statute of Northampton by the late 1600s and early 1700s. But again, because the Second Amendment's bare text covers petitioners' public carry, the respondents here shoulder the burden of demonstrating that New York's proper-cause requirement is consistent with the Second Amendment's text and historical scope. To the extent there are multiple plausible interpretations of Sir John Knight's Case, we will favor the one that is more consistent with the Second Amendment's command.
There was also some debate about how to understand the surety laws. Given that conflicting record, the tie goes to freedom.
The dissent speculates that the absence of recorded cases involving surety laws may simply "show that these laws were normally followed." Perhaps. But again, the burden rests with the government to establish the relevant tradition of regulation, and, given all of the other features of surety laws that make them poor analogues to New York's proper-cause standard, we consider the barren record of enforcement to be simply one additional reason to discount their relevance.
These seven principles effect a foundational shift in how courts should decide Second Amendment cases. To understand why this shift is so significant, it is helpful to review how the lower courts have decided cases in the exact opposite fashion. Consider United States v. Skoien, an en banc decision from the Seventh Circuit. Judge Easterbrook wrote the majority opinion in 2010. He expressly rejected the need to find a close analogue between a modern-day restriction on guns and framing-era restrictions of arms:
So although the Justices have not established that any particular statute is valid, we do take from Heller the message that exclusions need not mirror limits that were on the books in 1791.
And at every juncture, Easterbrook placed the burden on the defendant to justify the unreasonableness of the law. Indeed, the court supplied additional evidence that the government did not cite to defend the law. Judge Sykes dissented. She faulted the majority for giving the government a "decisive assist."
This approach fell far short of the legal heavy lifting normally required to justify criminally punishing the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right. . . . When it comes to applying this standard, they give the government a decisive assist; most of the empirical data cited to sustain § 922(g)(9) has been supplied by the court. This is an odd way to put the government to its burden of justifying a law that prohibits the exercise of a constitutional right. With respect, I cannot join the en banc opinion. The court declines to be explicit about its decision method, sends doctrinal signals that confuse rather than clarify, and develops its own record to support the government's application of § 922(g)(9) to this defendant.
Easterbrook's approach to judging has predominated across the circuits. Many judges have followed Easterbrook's lead. They used loose reasoning, and always gave the benefit of the doubt to the government. I wrote about Skoien way back in 2013, yet the precedent has survived. Indeed, I don't know if there is any Judge who more flagrantly dared the Supreme Court to reverse him on guns than Easterbrook. No more. Put a red flag on Skoien.
Under the approach in Bruen, courts are required to use tight analogical reasoning between a modern restriction and history, and if there is any doubt, the tie goes to freedom.
Still, there is a single paragraph in Justice Thomas's majority opinion that could undermine--even ruin--Bruen:
While the historical analogies here and in Heller are relatively simple to draw, other cases implicating unprecedented societal concerns or dramatic technological changes may require a more nuanced approach. The regulatory challenges posed by firearms today are not always the same as those that preoccupied the Founders in 1791 or the Reconstruction generation in 1868. Fortunately, the Founders created a Constitution—and a Second Amendment—"intended to endure for ages to come, and consequently, to be adapted to the various crises of human affairs." McCulloch v. Maryland (1819). Although its meaning is fixed according to the understandings of those who ratified it, the Constitution can, and must, apply to circumstances beyond those the Founders specifically anticipated.
It will be very easy for the Ninth Circuit to deem mass shootings an "unprecedented societal concerns" or designate so-called assault weapons as the byproducts of "dramatic technological change." These two categories, buttressed by the original Heller discussion of "sensitive places" and "dangerous and unusual weapons," will provide judges with an escape hatch from analogical reasoning. Plus, combined with the limitations from Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence--much more on that concurrence later--the Ninth Circuit will have everything it needs to keep business as usual. If I had to guess, Justice Kavanaugh proposed this paragraph. If ever the price of the fifth vote, as the saying goes.
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Yeah, that dicta regarding technological developments and unprecedented societal concerns appears to be a salve to some Justice's fear of the oncoming 3D printing of guns and todays "large" mags/semi autos popularity. Didn't Kavanaugh in the earlier judging role hold that AR 15's are 2 A protected?
Like “assault weapons” the term “high capacity magazines” is a made up term to sound scary and unusual. A magazine that ships from the manufacturer to the costumer is best described as the “normal capacity magazine” for that firearm. Normal capacity mags range from six or so to thirty depending on firearm. The most popular Glock ships with a 17 round mag.
I've got a 100 round magazine, and a couple 50 round ones, for my Calico. Came in handy plinking on a friend's farm last summer, and it's designed to have proper balance with one loaded.
They make a tiny capacity magazine for it, but they're the standard capacity ones.
Really kind of wish I'd gotten the .22 version, instead of 9mm; At this point the ammo to load the magazine costs more than the magazine originally did!
Josh. You are a pretty good guy. Argument by analogy are not valid.
I offered to send Eugene a book, if he provided his office address.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1648765343/reasonmagazinea-20/
This is from high school. I suggest a course in critical thinking as a pre-law requirement. It would give partial immunity to the garbage indoctrination of law school.
In this OP Blackman shows how Thomas takes mistaken historical reasoning from Heller, and puts the mistakes on stilts. The problem is two-fold—not knowing history, and not knowing how to think about history.
On the not-knowing history side, consider this from Heller:
Many colonial statutes required individual arms-bearing for public-safety reasons—such as the 1770 Georgia law that “for the security and defence of this province from internal dangers and insurrections” required those men who qualified for militia duty individually “to carry fire arms” “to places of public worship.”
Leaving aside the inescapable inference that the subject is a defense of one class of people against its own slaves, there is earlier in the discussion an implication of provenance from English law. Left out is any inkling that the 17th century English law in question excluded from its provisions of rights a large majority of the English population, who were not freemen, and not entitled to bear arms, even in a militia. In historical fact, that majority, who were not freemen, was governed arbitrarily, without regard to rights.
A more comprehensive restriction on the right to bear arms is hard to imagine. If that is the basis to establish American history and tradition (for reasons of sound historical practice it should not be, but Thomas does not know that, and takes no account of it), then the historical conclusion is unavoidable that the state may disarm whomever it pleases, in pursuit of public safety. That was the practical meaning of the English law referred to.
On the not-knowing-how-to-think-about history side, there is the logically nonsensical assertion that analogical reasoning to bridge the gap between the past and the present is a valid means to draw an inference from history. You can't do that. I do not mean that it is forbidden to do that. I mean it is impossible to do.
Everyone understands the crucial role of context in establishing meaning. Good readers learned most of all the word definitions they rely on not from looking the words up in a dictionary, but from inferences drawn from context. It is second nature, apparently an innate human ability to be able to do that.
Every utterance is conditioned at the time it is made by a contextual milieu particular to that time and place. The conundrum is this: word definitions may change over time, or they may remain almost unchanged for centuries. Different words with different definitions vary in that respect. But by and large, because English words from even the 17th century share considerable definitional identity with modern counterparts spelled alike or similarly, it is easy for a modern reader to suppose definitional insight into an antique text.
That supposition is spurious. The contexts do not match. They are vastly different. Between the modern context brought to the task of analogizing, and the historical context in which the utterance was made, lies an almost-unbridgeable gap of disparate experience. For scholars untrained in history, including legal scholars, it is an absolutely unbridgeable gap.
What makes it so hard is the problem of forgetting. Noticing what is there is easy. Noticing what cannot possibly be there because recognizing it depends on occurrences which happened between then and now is an ability which takes years of full time study to even approximate. Nothing which happened after the founding era had any influence at all on founding era context. Not in the slightest.
All that centuries-long aggregation of thoughts, occurrences, philosophical musings, economic insights, wars, rivalries, religious changes, educational advancements, mathematical and engineering development, cosmology, physics, biological science, materials science, world exploration, the application of technology to transport and travel, communication, cultural mixing, computing, sexual mores, changes in politics and political philosophy, and so on—an essentially endless list—not only affects our modern context, but actually determines almost the entirety of it.
The vast majority of people living in this era cannot possibly get all that context out of their heads. It conditions every judgment they make. And it is utterly unlike, for instance, the founding era context within which long-ago utterances conveyed their meanings. The definitions of the words may indeed be decipherable, but the contextual meaning—which is to say, most of the meaning—of founding era utterances made in that context is impossible to recognize accurately through a lens of modern context.
Which is what the forgetting mentioned above is all about. There is only one way to accomplish it. Somehow, the influence of the intervening period between then and now must be erased from the modern mind. A person raised amidst modern context must take on the task of re-educating himself from scratch, using nothing but the means and materials available to an educated person of the former era under consideration. Only by that laborious training does it become possible for a modern person to read antique text in appropriate context, and thus gain insight into what the text actually meant. To accomplish that takes years of laborious study.
Historical laymen, such as justices Scalia and Thomas never dream that problem exists, and forge ahead in ignorance. They inadvertently make up modern meanings for old utterances, without even supposing they have done it.
Historians have a disciplined method to avoid those pitfalls, which they apply after they get themselves retrained in bygone context, and learn to recognize inappropriate intrusions from the present. Instead of critiquing old meanings using modern context—and thus changing meanings radically—they instead marshal all the survivals from the era under study which can be assembled, and then make those survivals critique each other. That keeps the discussion within the bounds of period-appropriate context. That is what the practice of accurate history looks like—or at least reasonably responsible history, given that real accuracy can never be presumed.
Which brings us to the point I mentioned to begin, about the impossibility of analogical reasoning which bridges past and present. You simply cannot have a text which simultaneously and validly takes on meanings imparted by both a past context, and a different present context. No such analogy is possible. As I said, you can't do that.
"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response did you even come close to anything that could be considered a correct answer. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
That's a pretty good quote. What's it from?
That's a pretty good quote. What's it from?
The Adam Sandler comedy Billy Madison. The full quote is:
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
"Which brings us to the point I mentioned to begin, about the impossibility of analogical reasoning which bridges past and present. You simply cannot have a text which simultaneously and validly takes on meanings imparted by both a past context, and a different present context. No such analogy is possible. As I said, you can't do that."
I see. I guess 235 years of constitutional interpretation needs to be jettisoned. Say, do you have a plausible alternative? I mean, if everything judges have been doing since, well, forever ago, is impossible, then I suppose we better come up with an alternative lickety split.
Michael W. Towns — You are mistaken in part. The law loves argument by analogy. Where points in question are strictly legal, and without need of other kinds of historical context, the objections I mention do not apply, or apply far less.
Lawyers are competent to practice law, and expert at their own narrowly defined traditions of legal interpretation. You would be hard pressed to find any academic historian who would presume to instruct a lawyer on a strictly legal interpretation, not even if the interpretation were done at a remove of several centuries. The difference there is the subject to interpret actually is law, and not history.
The problem I mention is different. It became salient with the vogue for treating history as evidence, with "history and tradition," arguments, or alleged "textualism," which turns out to be about reading and understanding history, or "originalism," more generally. Those kinds of questions may have legal technicalities of their own—and the lawyers can handle those—but they also go beyond legal questions, to make historical questions themselves a focus of decision. It is when that happens that overconfident lawyers and judges get in over their heads on the history.
Of course if you look for it, you can find case law which featured judges who long ago botched their own purely historical analyses. Those create risk that today's cases will cite an unqualified judge's misbegotten historical analysis, and use it as precedent to prove facts of history which can be re-used in a case today. That makes it look like the erroneous history itself had been proved correct, at least for the purpose of legal use.
Man, you do go on at great length to no discernable purpose, If you want to disagree with something Thomas wrote maybe you should start by quoting it.
Of course you do quote one passage as your third paragraph, but what you then offer in what is apparently intended as as a rebuttal is a miserable failure at achieving that aim. That you think that the fact that the English lower classes were denied by their ruling class their natural right to bear arms bears somehow on the observation that "[m]any colonial statutes required individual arms-bearing for public-safety reasons" is a total brain fart. Its part of the transition from subjects to citizenry that the American citizenry claimed rights denied in England to peons.
Man, you do go on at great length to no discernable purpose
When it comes to commentary Lathrop is firmly in the quantity > quality camp.
The Ninth Circuit won’t need this “escape hatch” to keep business as usual.
Their en banc opinion in Young v. Hawaii followed Bruen’s yet-to-be-written instructions to the letter. They simply chose to read the history differently. It didn’t hurt that they had lots of help from Michael Bloomberg’s legions of anti-gun zealots in the academy, either.
It’s always been up to the Supreme Court to police the lower courts. When it comes to the Second Amendment, the only way to do this is to accept cases for review and reverse erroneous decisions.
I agree, you don't need Thomas' dicta to thwart Bruen. The majority opinion lays out a system with multiple layers of judgment calls that can be manipulated by a judge or panel hostile to this right to uphold pretty much any gun law.
The only course here that doesn't end up with Bruen largely meaningless is for the Court to stop denying cert to gun cases, and hammer down every nail that sticks up. They're going to have to do the hard work of FORCING the lower courts to comply.
For what it's worth:
https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/06/another-gun-case-waits-in-the-wings/
See Whitaker v District of Columbia
Ah, yes, a presumption of liberty for me but not for thee. Who could have seen that coming?
I assume you mean that there was no presumption of liberty about abortion. That's because there never has been such a presumption in this country's history or traditions.
A presumption of liberty where you can point to an on point, explicit constitutional right. That only works out to "for me but not for thee" in this case because there IS a 2nd amendment, and isn't anything in the the Constitution about abortion.
You know how to change that.
Yes, I could wish upon a star to get so much consensus about abortion that it could be written into the constitution, except of course if there was that much consensus about abortion there would be no point in writing it into the contstitution. In any case, in a failed democracy like the US it isn't really obvious what we could do short of wishing on a star.
You want the product of a consensus that you know doesn't exist, that's the bottom line here.
No, you want to keep the Constitution exactly as it was interpreted by slave owners 200 years ago unless an unrealistic majority agrees to do things differently. That's an easy concession for you to make, because you know nothing short of "let's make it harder for politicians to get pay increases" will reach that bar ever.
What does slavery have to do with this? You must be desperate. Bring in gender fluidity and pregnant males while you're at it.
The whole "slave owners" thing is just a rhetorical tick that betrays desperation. It's a sort of second hand ad hominem, "We should quash this Constitution because it was written by slave owners!"
But, of course, not the parts that empower Democrats to do stuff they want. Just the parts you don't like, whether or not they have anything to do with slavery.
There IS a problem with the amendment process today: Federal office holders have become a kind of self-perpetuating class, distinct from the rest of society, and so their interests have diverged from those of the general population.
And the courts have become generally deferential, they no longer enforce the Constitution against the federal government most of the time, so Congress doesn't NEED amendments to get the changes it wants. And won't originate amendments for changes the people might want, because it has different wants.
The way to fix this is via a constitutional convention, and amending Article V to allow for any amendment to be ratified by the states without having to go through Congress. I think we'll be seeing such a convention within the next decade, the disconnect between Congress and the voters has become so great.
The slave owners did not want to see freed blacks in part as Taney noted because then those blacks could then carry arms “anywhere they wanted.” That shows pretty clearly the SC’s 2A understanding at the time.
Right, because you know you can't get 38 states to agree that killing babies and giving marriage licenses to men who sodomize men through their digestive systems are important rights, so you pretend that any opposition is illegitimate.
except of course if there was that much consensus about abortion there would be no point in writing it into the contstitution
That's at least the 2nd time you've made that moronic statement, even after having it pointed out to you just exactly how stupid it is, and why. At this point one must conclude that you're just another low-rent troll.
If the Court had wanted an easily used, hard to warp guideline, they'd have just said, "Pretend that guns are printing presses, for constitutional purposes."
They didn't do that for much the same reason they invented substantive due process instead of just overturning the Slaughterhouse Court's malicious interpretation of Privileges and Immunities: They wanted scope for their own picking and choosing, they didn't want to be forced to allow the scope of the right to expand into areas they personally found uncomfortable.
Well, leave enough wiggle room for the Supreme court to do that, you leave enough for the lower courts to do that.
I'd like to add another point about the proposed analogous standard here: You're judging the scope of the 2nd amendment by what the states and local governments were doing at a time when the 2nd amendment didn't apply to them. Which seems just a little problematic; The relevant amendment was the one in the state constitution, not the federal constitution! And sometimes there wasn't one, so you'd be looking at regulation in the absence of the 2nd amendment.
Now, I'm not complaining about interpreting the 2nd amendment as meaning generally what analogous state constitutional clauses were understood to mean, to the extent they actually WERE analogous. But this does mean that you can only look at practice in states that DID have similar state level protections.
So if some western towns required people to leave their guns at the sheriff's New York City can do the same?
1: Did they? Or is that just more paperback fiction to go along with the fiction that western towns had a higher murder rate than eastern cities, when in fact it was much much higher back east?
2. The decision says that gun control laws in territories before they became states don't count. Is that what you are referring to?
Your assertion is too vague to be useful. The decision also said you can't wave your hands like that.
What surprises me is that there has been little or no discussion by the courts on what I see as the primary purpose of the second amendment. The primary purpose of the right to keep and bear arms is stated at the beginning of the amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, "
Those words by the founders tell me that the primary purpose for the people to possess firearms is so that the people would be able to engage in military activity to defend the country. Keep in mind there was no standing army formed until after the constitution was adopted.
Read Heller. You're dredging up old nonsense and trying to pretend it's new.
No, I have to agree that, with Heller, Scalia went out of his way to divorce the 2nd amendment from its militiacentric concerns, because he did NOT want to acknowledge a constitutional right to military arms, which is what the 2nd amendment was adopted to guarantee.
The 2nd amendment really was about the militia. Not about the rights of militia members, as gun controllers would have it, (Ignoring that "the People"!) but about throwing a major roadblock in the way of discontinuing the militia system.
The idea was that if the federal government tried to discontinue the militia system, and set out to disarm the people to make raising a militia impossible, the 2nd amendment would stop that, by establishing that private citizens had a right to own the appropriate arms, not as militia members, but as citizens.
If the right were limited to militia members, abolishing the militia would abolish the right, which would render it pointless to the intended end.
With the 2nd amendment in place, even if the militia system were discontinued, (As it has been for all practical purposes.) you could still raise a militia in an emergency from the armed populace, and find them immediately useful because they owned their own arms, and were familiar with them.
It's like guaranteeing the right to firefighting equipment so that you can throw together a volunteer fire department in an emergency even if your local government ends up run by arsonists intent on burning everything down.
Of course, once it's established that you have the right to own and carry about military arms, that you can also use them for any lawful purpose, such as self defense, just falls out automatically. And banning ownership of lesser arms becomes hard to justify.
A key point here is that, if the government can regulate in any substantially arbitrary way what sorts of arms you can keep and bear, they can defeat the purpose of the amendment by limiting the citizenry to arms unsuited to military purposes. Which is just the abuse Scalia embraced!
No, it's a right to, as Tench Coxe put it, "their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier". If the government lets its own minions play with a weapon, citizens have to be allowed it, too.
I think you make too big a deal of the difference between civilian and military weapons. As I understand it, there was no such distinction: merchants had cannon on their ships, for instance. No hunter had a bayonet, but that was for practical reasons, and while I can't imagine very many civilians walking around with swords, plenty had knives, and no one worried about blade length.
It's a distinction that didn't matter until the government started restricting what sorts of firearms people could own, which is a fairly late development, historically speaking.
MJ3
This is, indeed, what any person would gather from reading the amendment and knowing the history. It was the settled interpretation for years. And then, in the 1970's, the gun industry started funding legal "scholarship" . . .
Those words by the founders tell me that the primary purpose for the people to possess firearms is so that the people would be able to engage in military activity to defend the country.
This is, indeed, what any person would gather from reading the amendment and knowing the history.
It's nice that illiterate buffoons like you two have a way to find one another so you don't feel so lonely. But allow me to point out that "the primary purpose of the people to possess firearms is so that the people would be able to engage in military activity to defend the country" is complete and utter ignorance-based horseshit. The primary purpose that the authors of the amendment had in mind for explicitly enumerating and protecting the RKBA via 2A was indeed to ensure that a battle-ready militia could be raised in short order. But their desire to protect the right is NOT the "reason" for the existence of the right (which is explicitly acknowledged in the text of the amendment itself as pre-existing natural right, as well as in most contemporary writing on the topic).
The depth of simple-mindedness required to not grasp the difference between those two things causes one to wonder how exactly you manage to function at all.
I think it is a bit more complicated than a presumption of liberty.
1. Comparing Bruen and Dodds, there is an obvious difference between an explicitly stated right, and a right that is unstated. The latter has to leap over the intial hurdle of demonstrating its existence, before it can benefit from any presumptions at all.
2. Where the Constitution says Congress can't do something, the judicial mind has first to conjure an atextual "except when...." clause, before it gets to awarding a presumption of liberty to the application of the imaginary "except when..." clause. Thus before the presumption of liberty, comes the presumption of a judicial power to amend the Constitution, against liberty, in favor of the government.
3. Not all clauses in the Constitution are identical. Prohibiting is not abridging which is not infringing.
The latter has to leap over the intial hurdle of demonstrating its existence, before it can benefit from any presumptions at all.
And once it does so, then what?
Why shouldn't it enjoy equal status with those enumerated?
That 's what seems to me to be foolish about the distinction. The Constitution explicitly says there are rights other than those enumerated. It seems that, once existence is demonstrated, by a SCOTUS decision I guess, how can they be removed, even by another decision?
Sure, once you've cleared that hurdle of demonstrating the right's existence, it should be on a par with any enumerated right.
But the point at which you have to demonstrate it's existence is at the time the BoR was ratified, not today. The 10th amendment was there to prevent existing rights from being extinguished on the basis of not being enumerated, not to hand the judiciary a blank check to create new rights.
You want NEW rights, you need to establish them through the democratic process.
But the point at which you have to demonstrate it's existence is at the time the BoR was ratified, not today.
Nonsense.
Nope. Today, if you want a new right that didn't previously exist, the way you create it is by the democratic process. That's how you demonstrate a consensus in favor of the right, and the reason you don't want to go that route is that you know there IS no such consensus for most of the rights you'd create by judicial fiat. The purpose of the 9th (Not 10th, my mistake.) amendment was solely to preserve the status quo against implied repeal of rights.
Madison: "It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration, and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the general government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that may be guarded against."
Nonsense.
Brilliant rebuttal. You've really got him on the ropes now.
I agree. If there is a non enumerated right, it - once demonstrated and specified - should enjoy the same status as any other constitutional right.
But there is that preliminary step - demonstrating it and specifying it - that enumerated rights don't have to go through.
And practically, being textless, the boundaries of the right are harder to discern - perhaps more so under "conservative" interpretive theories than "liberal", text being more persuasive to conservatives than liberals, but even so.
This means that it is more likely that limiting considerations will seep into the description of the right itself, ie before the formal "except for..." It also means that the right is more open to reinterpretation than a right captured in text.
And even when the textless right is demonstrated to the satisfaction of one set of Justices, that doesn't mean that the demonstration will continue to be satisfactory to a later set of Justices. It's much easier for a later set of Justices to conclude of a non enumerated right - "sorry, you say it's there, but I just don't see it at all." Which is pretty much what Alito said.
Harder to do if there's some cold black text insisting on the four corners of the right.
I used to have this problem with lawyers when they were writing contracts for me. I'd tell them that I wanted X in writing, in the contract. They'd say, no need, it's clearly implied. And I'd say, yes need, I pay you, not the other way round.
It's much easier for a later set of Justices to conclude of a non enumerated right - "sorry, you say it's there, but I just don't see it at all." Which is pretty much what Alito said.
In principle, a later set of Justices does not have the power to do that, any more than they have the power to invalidate other rights.
Well, obviously I agree ...... provided that there really is a right there, rather than a will o' the wisp that earlier Justices merely imagined.
And later Justices certainly have the power to declare that "rights" that were merely the figments of the imagination of earlier Justices are not rights, but figments.
So I don't think the proprieties are very much in dispute. Justices are not allowed to nix real rights, and they're not allowed to invent imaginary ones. The question is - is this or that claimed right a real one or an imaginary one ? Which is obviously to the advantage of rights that appear in the actual text.
Although, as with 2A, a written right can be Nelson-at-Copenhagen-ed for ages, before the telescope is eventually moved to the non-blind eye.
If an earlier Supreme Court read the Seventh Amendment and said that it provides a right to a jury trial in any case where more than 10 dollars is at issue, a later Supreme Court is well within its rights (and arguably duty-bound) to say, "No, you only have a right to a jury trial if more than 20 dollars is at issue."
For a different point of view, from an actual historian, see href="https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/06/clarence-thomas-gun-decision-bruen-anti-originalist.html">here.
link appears to be broken
The correct link is visible, though, and I was able to follow it. And not be persuaded.
Here, try this.
From the foaming-at-the-mouth mode of historical analysis.
There's already absolutely zero reason to ever take you seriously on anything. Citing something published by Slate, written by an avid gun-control advocate as though it should be regarded as serious and honest scholarly commentary is very much a case of beating a dead horse.
Wow.
Josh heaps praise on a silly decision, and then criticizes what may be the only sensible paragraph.