The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Other Fundamental Rights Are Safe (At Least for Now)
The conservative majority's commitments on contraception, sexual intimacy, and same-sex marriage
In reaction to today's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health, overruling Roe v. Wade, advocacy groups are warning about the potential implications for other rights. Some analysts are pointing specifically to Justice Thomas's concurring opinion, which calls for a reexamination of substantive due process precedents like Griswold v. Connecticut (1965), Lawrence v. Texas (2003), and Obergefell v. Hodges (2015). Certainly the three-Justice joint dissent is sounding the alarm.
Has the mask finally dropped, revealing the true intentions of the majority to wipe the slate clean of unenumerated fundamental rights that social and religious conservatives don't like?
To begin an answer to that question, I count no fewer than four places in the Dobbs opinion that disavow any implications for other rights. I refer to these as the reassurance passages. Two of them were already in the leaked draft opinion. Two more have been added because they are responses to the dissent (which would not have been available when Justice Alito circulated his first draft in February).
(1) Slip op. 32 (in the original draft), after listing numerous substantive due process rights:
What sharply distinguishes the abortion right from the rights recognized in the cases on which Roe and Casey rely is something that both those decisions acknowledged: Abortion destroys what those decisions call "potential life" and what the law at issue in this case regards as the life of an "unborn human being." See Roe, 410 U. S., at 159 (abortion is "inherently different"); Casey, 505 U. S., at 852 (abortion is "a unique act"). None of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical moral question posed by abortion. They are therefore inapposite. They do not support the right to obtain an abortion, and by the same token, our conclusion that the Constitution does not confer such a right does not undermine them in any way.
(2) pp. 37-38 (added to the final opinion):
The most striking feature of the dissent is the absence of any serious discussion of the legitimacy of the States' interest in protecting fetal life. This is evident in the analogy that the dissent draws between the abortion right and the rights recognized in Griswold (contraception), Eisenstadt (same), Lawrence (sexual conduct with member of the same sex), and Obergefell (same-sex marriage). Perhaps this is designed to stoke unfounded fear that our decision will imperil those other rights, but the dissent's analogy is objectionable for a more important reason: what it reveals about the dissent's views on the protection of what Roe called "potential life." The exercise of the rights at issue in Griswold, Eisenstadt, Lawrence, and Obergefell does not destroy a "potential life," but an abortion has that effect.
(3) p. 66 (in the original draft):
Unable to show concrete reliance on Roe and Casey themselves, the Solicitor General suggests that overruling those decisions would "threaten the Court's precedents holding that the Due Process Clause protects other rights." Brief for United States 26 (citing Obergefell, 576 U. S. 644; Lawrence, 539 U. S. 558; Griswold, 381 U. S. 479). That is not correct for reasons we have already discussed. As even the Casey plurality recognized, "[a]bortion is a unique act" because it terminates "life or potential life." 505 U. S., at 852; see also Roe, 410 U. S., at 159 (abortion is "inherently different from marital intimacy," "marriage," or "procreation"). And to ensure that our decision is not misunderstood or mischaracterized, we emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right. Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.
(4) pp. 71-72 (added to the final opinion)
Finally, the dissent suggests that our decision calls into question Griswold, Eisenstadt, Lawrence, and Obergefell. Post, at 4–5, 26–27, n. 8. But we have stated unequivocally that "[n]othing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion." Supra, at 66. We have also explained why that is so: rights regarding contraception and same-sex relationships are inherently different from the right to abortion because the latter (as we have stressed) uniquely involves what Roe and Casey termed "potential life." Roe, 410 U. S., at 150 (emphasis deleted); Casey, 505 U. S., at 852. Therefore, a right to abortion cannot be justified by a purported analogy to the rights recognized in those other cases or by "appeals to a broader right to autonomy." Supra, at 32. It is hard to see how we could be clearer. Moreover, even putting aside that these cases are distinguishable, there is a further point that the dissent ignores: Each precedent is subject to its own stare decisis analysis, and the factors that our doctrine instructs us to consider like reliance and workability are different for these cases than for our abortion jurisprudence.
The number and clarity of these passages are extraordinary. To these one could add the separate concurrence of Justice Kavanaugh, who addresses concerns that were raised in the briefs:
First is the question of how this decision will affect other precedents involving issues such as contraception and marriage—in particular, the decisions in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U. S. 479 (1965); Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U. S. 438 (1972); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U. S. 1 (1967); and Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U. S. 644 (2015). I emphasize what the Court today states: Overruling Roe does not mean the overruling of those precedents, and does not threaten or cast doubt on those precedents.
(As an aside, I don't count Justice Thomas's view as portending much. It's notable that he wrote only for himself. His views about substantive due process are longstanding, well-known, and idiosyncratic. No other sitting justice has ever expressed an interest in completely abandoning substantive due process and all of the precedents it has generated.)
The reassurance passages go well beyond mere rote observations that the Court is not overruling these precedents because it has neither been asked to do so nor is it required to do so in order to decide the case before it. The passages are also not mere bald assertions, devoid of substance, which can be dropped without any pretense of consistency. Instead, they contain two substantive principles.
The first is the Court's observation that abortion, which involves the taking of what is at least potential human life, has no parallel in other rights-contexts. That distinction is admitted by just about everyone. The Court does not say precisely how this distinction should affect the constitutional analysis of whether the right exists. But I read the Court as suggesting that the analysis of whether a right should be protected turns in part on the countervailing interests at stake in not protecting it--here, the destruction of potential life (the kind of ultimate "moral question" the Court thinks judges cannot or should not resolve). Resolution of the potential life question also goes to the strength of the government's interest in regulation.
Further, to the extent new rights can be recognized (or old rights can be recognized in new contexts), we do so by analogy. But there is no analogy close to the abortion right, which is sui generis. Under this view, the right to same-sex marriage (Obergefell) is at least adjacent to the recognized right to marry (Loving) in a way that the right to end a pregnancy (Roe) is not adjacent to the recognized right to prevent a pregnancy (Griswold).
The second principle is new in the published decision. The opinion notes that, even if some other substantive due process decisions were initially wrong, the Court should continue to stand by them under stare decisis principles. Specifically, the reliance interests in, say, same-sex marriage are much more concrete. (Query, however, why the reliance interests in Lawrence and Griswold would be any greater than in Roe.) Also, protection of the rights to contraception, sexual intimacy, and marriage, are more judicially manageable (workability). Gay couples have a right to marry on the same terms as others, which does not depend on whether a regulation places an undue burden on that right. It's an on-or-off switch, not a balancing of incommensurable interests.
I have previously written that overruling Roe would present no "immediate or direct threat" to the various other substantive-due process precedents, including Obergefell. The Court has now effectively doubled-down on its reassurances about this. There are simply not five votes to overrule Obergefell or the other decisions. I'd wager there are not more than two to do so.
It is true, as both Justice Thomas and the dissent point out, that rights to contraception, sexual intimacy, and same-sex marriage do not fit easily within the Court's narrow history-and-tradition methodology. That might spell longer-term trouble under a different cast of Justices who may not feel as much obligation to ancestral precedents.
So could Obergefell, Lawrence, Griswold, and even Loving be overruled sometime in the future? Of course. We know that even half-century-old precedents are not sacred. And the future is a long time. It is a foreign land in which anything can happen. But Dobbs does not augur a majority willing to go there.
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If you believe these justices' reassurances on this point (as Sen. Collins recently did, for example), you seem just as gullible and dumb as the average conservative Republican.
Fortunately, the trajectory of history indicates better Americans will impose adult supervision on this situation.
Republicans got everything they wanted out of gay marriage—Bush was re-elected and he was able to slaughter hundreds of thousands of more innocent Muslims while enriching the Military Industrial Complex and killing more Americans than Osama Bin Laden.
Hi, Rev. Try to be more lawyerly.
Homosexual marriage is another lawyer fiction. It will never be more than a friendship. It was not even a homosexual idea. It was a lawyer idea trying to plunder the assets of homosexuals in divorce. Homosexuals are smart and have not fallen for this lawyer trap. Almost none is getting married.
^^^wants to get the job to check for 1 pee pee and 1 wee wee when a couple gets married.
Cremmie. If you hate homosexuals, you legalize their marriage.
Marriage is an asinine institution and I would urge everyone to follow Trump’s lead and opt for a prenup over the marriage/divorce laws crafted by morons in state legislatures. That said limiting a law to a couple with exactly 1 pee pee and 1 wee wee seems an untenable standard in 2022.
True. Limiting it it to one phyllum seems just as ridiculoius.
Dale, baby. Do not worry about the trivial cases you listed. Worry about Marbury. That is a garbage case that is divorced from reality. It violates Article I Section 1. If you scumbag lawyers want judicial review, amend the constitution. The consequences of Marbury have been hideous, like the Civil War, via its first expression, Dred Scott.
I didn't know you were an expert on homosexual relationships. Thanks for sharing your obvious deep knowledge.
Meanwhile, in my neighborhood there are two homosexual couples (now married) that have raised children that are 23 and 24 now. Considering the divorce rate in red states is over 50%, I think they are bucking the average.
Weird, I guess people can be different and not follow your stereo types.
So - does your argument mean SCOTUS should or shouldn't outlaw gay marriage? Or is your argument completely irrelevant?
Their kids are probably deluded liberals. That's what happens when you're raised in a household like that
Con. Tell us more about those kids.
Another win for us clingers.
It's not a win, clinger. You guys have hit a couple of homeruns, and are celebrating as one would expect of fans who have been getting stomped by better teams from bigger markets for many years, but you're still down, 14-3, in the bottom of the eighth.
Bigotry, superstition, and half-educated rural desolation just aren't popular enough in modern America to keep conservatives competitive in national elections or elections in advanced, successful, educated communities.
Yeah - this article is embarrassingly daft. Is Carpenter not aware of the ongoing backlash in red states against gay rights? We have seen this play before with abortion and gun laws. Some Southern state will take action triggering a case whether states must recognize gay marriage. Trial court federal judge who is a Trump appointee will issue a ruling applying Dobbs framework to uphold the right of the state to refuse to recognize gay marriage. In 18 months, it will be before the Supreme Court and how exactly does he think Alito, Kavanaugh, Thomas, Coney Barrett, Gorsuch and Roberts (a dissenter in Obergefell) will vote? Alito and Thomas are reactionary true believers. And, Kavanaugh, Coney-Barrett, Gorsuch and Roberts have all been groomed through the Federalist society framework to reliably issue just these types of decisions.
"Is Carpenter not aware of the ongoing backlash in red states against gay rights?"'
Such as? Anti-grooming legislation the FL parental rights bill? Some examples would be lovely.
"Some Southern state will take action triggering a case whether states must recognize gay marriage. Trial court federal judge who is a Trump appointee will issue a ruling applying Dobbs framework to uphold the right of the state to refuse to recognize gay marriage. In 18 months, it will be before the Supreme Court and how exactly does he think Alito, Kavanaugh, Thomas, Coney Barrett, Gorsuch and Roberts (a dissenter in Obergefell) will vote? Alito and Thomas are reactionary true believers. And, Kavanaugh, Coney-Barrett, Gorsuch and Roberts have all been groomed through the Federalist society framework to reliably issue just these types of decisions."
Can you provide winning Powerball numbers? Your predictive skills seem second-to-none.
Note: Gorsuch has already ruled in favor of gay marriage,
Roe was aborted in the 198th trimester
Obergefell isn’t even really necessary when individuals are allowed to declare their own gender—is a justice of the peace really going to check for pee pees and wee wees??
With all due respect, how do you define a "fundamental" right?
Overturning Roe/Casey really takes the “fun” out of fundamental. 😉
Nah, not for me, I'm the guy in the relationship. I can just take off and by the time they catch me and do a DNA test the kid will be out of college.
As long as you aren’t Hunter Biden or an NBA player or Hershel Walker. 😉
That might spell longer-term trouble under a different cast of Justices who may not feel as much obligation to ancestral precedents.
For a while I thought this post might be serious, but when I got to this line I realised it was all satire. Good one!
Carpenter is right, Thomas is the only one really against stare decisis.
Plenty of future GOP justice possibilities who agree with Thomas though. The court, from your point of view, can get "worse".
Both Roe and Casey (among others) are the strongest reason to question and possibly disregard stare decisis.
Bad law begets bad law.
I disagree. Roe came in the aftermath of the Civil Rights movement in which a minority group of Americans was kept out of the political process by laws perpetuated by the majority group. So if the minority group can’t participate in politics then the political process is effectively broken and it makes perfect sense for the Court to step in.
The conventional wisdom was that women were a minority group that wasn’t being allowed to participate in the political process. So the judicial branch exercised their power because they believed women couldn’t fully participate in the political process.
Btw, this is also why Justice Thomas’ obsession with racism with respect to gun regulations is so asinine—Blacks can now participate in the political process and Black political leaders support gun regulations. Furthermore there is video of Governor Reagan wiping his ass with the Second Amendment because Black Panthers started exercising their right to open carry—why does Thomas never reference that racist episode when the video is easily accessible on YouTube?? Was Reagan a racist or were the gun regulations necessary to combat gun crime??
"I disagree. Roe came in the aftermath of the Civil Rights movement in which a minority group of Americans was kept out of the political process by laws perpetuated by the majority group." By that you mean Democrats. What does it have to do with abortion?
"The conventional wisdom was that women were a minority group that wasn’t being allowed to participate in the political process." So the answer was to rely on the SC to make up a right?
"Was Reagan a racist or were the gun regulations necessary to combat gun crime??" Reagan was never a racist and enforcing existing law and not gun regulations are more important in combating all crime.
According to Justice Thomas Reagan is a racist because upon seeing scary Black dudes with guns Reagan peed his panties and then outlawed open carry.
Interestingly enough, I was brought around to the pro-gun-rights position back around 1970, as a result of reading constitutional arguments by members of the Black Panther Party. I find it interesting that former Panthers like Bobby Rush seem to have forgotten the BPP's heritage.
"Blacks can now participate in the political process and Black political leaders support gun regulations. "
How dear those dark-skinned folks not agree with their political leaders. Don't they know that disagreement is verboten?
Gun control was ALWAYS a racist act. Still is.
Dislike stop-and-frisk? Red flag laws are an exponentially worse thing.
"Furthermore there is video of Governor Reagan wiping his ass with the Second Amendment because Black Panthers started exercising their right to open carry—why does Thomas never reference that racist episode when the video is easily accessible on YouTube?? Was Reagan a racist or were the gun regulations necessary to combat gun crime??"
A failed bad policy is not required to be continued ad infinitum.
"Thomas is the only one really against stare decisis."
That's nonsense. The 'liberal' justices would overturn precedent in a heartbeat if they had the votes. Citizens United, for instance. Or Heller. I wouldn't go so far as to say they place no value on it at all; They'd likely treat it as a tie breaker.
But for any prior decision they really dislike? In. A. Heartbeat.
I meant among the 6 GOP justices.
That's right. The other GOP justices only oppose stare decisis when it gets in the way of overturning a precedent they don't like. The rest of the time they're fine with it.
Where "dislike" is really "think is deeply wrong".
I know this is a difficult distinction to understand if you're committed to the idea that the Constitution just means whatever you think it should mean. But I assure you there are plenty of constitutional precedents conservatives dislike that are secure because they're not WRONG.
Brett,
You are the world champion of thinking "the Constitution just means whatever you think it should mean."
Just like everything else.
I assure you there are plenty of constitutional precedents conservatives dislike that are secure because they're not WRONG.
They're going after Miranda now.
"They're going after Miranda now."
There's been talk about Sullivan, including here. I've been wondering about both Miranda/Escobedo and Gideon. Welcome to Germany 1933.
Let's wait and see whether they will let Donald Trump run for a 3rd term in 2028.
". . . Donald Trump run for a 3rd term in 2028."
Well, if the dead can vote, no reason they can't run for president.
Surely you mean 2024; if you believe him, he already was elected twice, 2016 and 2020.
Maybe Carpenter can explain why we should believe a word of this.
Kavanaugh in particular is a known liar. And - maybe - leaving Griswold aside there is plenty of conservative dislike for Lawrence and Obergfell.
It's not just Thomas.
While watching Lizard Cheney on the January 6th Commission just remember why Kavanaugh is a justice—George W Bush personally called Senator Collins and urged her to vote for Kavanaugh.
Why do you keep making stuff up?
Did I just detect an actionable libel?
No. No you didn’t.
Uh, truth is an absolute defense to libel. And I doubt that Kavanaugh would want to put his reputation for veracity at issue.
Or an opinion disclosed on known facts.
I think you mean an opinion based on disclosed facts—which wouldn't apply here, since you didn't actually disclose the facts you're relying on.
(Needless to say, this still was not an "actionable libel".)
Right. Thanks. I think it still applies here. You don’t have to literally say it is my opinion based on X for the statement “Kav is a known liar” to be an opinion based on disclosed facts about him: (he misled Collins/if you believed Christine Blasey Ford and not him)
"if you believed Christine Blasey Ford and not him"
And why would anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together do that?
Because she made a credible witness and even Trump thought so at the time:
https://fortune.com/2018/09/28/trump-ford-credible-witness/amp/
I mean if I was defending Brett K in front of a jury I’d be very worried about her as a witness and even more reluctant to put him on the stand in his defense.
"Because she made a credible witness"
No she didn't.
" and even Trump thought so at the time"
There's a ringing endorsement.
"Because she made a credible witness. . ."
Considering the story as a whole, I agree that she came off as believable. Particularly if her entire presentation is contrasted with that of Kavanaugh.
What part of her story was credible?
Not knowing when it happened?
Not knowing where?
Not knowing anybody who can verify it happened?
Shall we go into her laughable "lie detector" test that the Left thought was so convincing?
You seem to think people forgot HER in all of this. She did not make a single statement that could be verified.
"Because she made a credible witness"
It happened somewhere.
At some time.
At a house I do not remember.
No, nobody will back up my story.
For a lawyer, you are a sucker if it fits your beliefs.
"I mean if I was defending Brett K in front of a jury I’d be very worried about her as a witness and even more reluctant to put him on the stand in his defense"
Would you find ANYBODY to back up her claims? She did not do so.
"Kavanaugh in particular is a known liar. "
Care to elaborate?
He and ACB get hard nips at the sight of innocent Muslims being slaughtered.
and you know this because . . . ? Did you watch them react to Iran executing gays Muslims?
They used their lawyerly talents to help George W Bush steal the 2000 election and then helped him win re-election…don’t think for a second they wouldn’t have helped him steal the 2004 election because they were dead set on slaughtering as many innocent Muslim babies as possible.
There you go again. You were wrong 22 years ago nd your full of BS now. Live with it.
Did they help Barry Hussein Obama (Peace be upon Him) win the 2008 erection? Because BHO invaded Afghanistan in 2009, (The "Good War") and we know had that worked out.
And the Moose-lums(HT B. Sanders) are perfectly capable of slaughtering their own babies if we'll just leave them to their natural behavior.
Frank
Bush started the surge in Assghanistan in 2008 and Obama unwisely kept Gates as DefSec.
and Barry O (Peace be upon Him) ran it into the fucking ground, he should have left Afghanistan and invaded Guantanamo.
True enough. But do you think Gore would have avoid military action in Afghanistan. Or are you just too weded to counterfactuals?
Just like in 2020, nothing was stolen.
"They used their lawyerly talents to help George W Bush steal the 2000 election"
Sounding pretty insurrection-y there.
Brooks Brothers riot was an insurrection…only Bush was governor. DeathSantis didn’t prosecute Cubans for blocking roadways while protesting right after he signed a law to stop liberals from doing that exact same thing.
"Brooks Brothers riot was an insurrection"
Keep forgetting that insurrection now means "makes democrats angry". Do not know why you cannot use a new word instead of bastardizing an existing one, but you do you.
"DeathSantis didn’t prosecute Cubans for blocking roadways while protesting right after he signed a law to stop liberals from doing that exact same thing."
It's quite illegal to protest outside a judge's house. I bet Garland is dealing with that problem.
And was the protest even remotely violent? Nothing I've seen indicates it is, which means it was not a riot, and thus, not covered by an anti-rioting bill.
If this Court really wants to right the Ship of State, it should turn its attention to NYT v Sullivan. Of course, that would make the comments section on this site more boring.
Loving is going nowhere, it is based on Equal Protection. Which is in the Constitution.
Griswold is going nowhere, because I don't see any interest in the states in banning contraception. No ban, no Article III case for SCOTUS to play with.
Lawrence, maybe, if there is some state law that could put it in play, and then a prosecution. I rather doubt it, but not impossible.
Obergefell, however, is recent, and very unpopular. That's the one that is most likely to fall next.
Hobby Lobby?? Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle?? Hello!!
Did you even bother reading the OP. He referenced those four cases.
Republican lawyers have helped entities attack certain birth control methods…that is exactly how Republicans started challenging abortion laws.
“Very unpopular”
Citation needed. Or more realistically, you need to get out more.
I think it is unpopular with the conservative Justices' constituency.
Right. That’s why I’m saying he needs to get out more.
I oppose Obergefell, but then again I think government needs to get out of the blessing of marriage entirely. The problem I see is the very term is misunderstood. There is the religious and personal concept of marriage and there there is the government institution, which is more about tax status, medical power of attorney, and the disposition of minor children, in other words mostly it's a matter of contract law. The whole thing could be handled under existing contract law framework. 2, 3, 9, or 15 people for that matter of any sex, race, gender, orientation, what have you, can decide to get together and execute a contract giving themselves essentially the same rights and privileges as a currently married couple.
It's probably far past time government become agnostic (no pun intended) on the very concept. Leave the other concept of marriage to the churches.
This fails for reasons of sociology: people like state-based recognition of their relationship.
As for your policy argument, hard to see what that says about the Constitution, much less what the Constitution says about gay marriage specifically.
Well as I said, government shouldn't be in the sociology, marriage, or recognition thereof business at all. In times of dispute, or disillusion read the contract, and decide or arbitrate as necessary. How people decide to form relationships and live their lives is nobody else's business and they certainly don't need society's or government's blessing.
My wife and I considered ourselves and represented ourselves as husband and wife for a good 7 years before we got around to formally tying the knot and even then we had what in PA is called a "self uniting" AKA a "Quaker" marriage because the very concept that you need some 3rd party to marry you is patently absurd.
Since his comment was vague--unpopular with whom? I took him to mean unpopular with the socially conservative right-wing minority that currently runs things.
Polls are showing same-sex marriage approval in the supermajority range across the public. Abortion with some limits gets similar approval ratings, though, and that hasn't prevented the far right wing of the GOP from driving the bus right over anyone that doesn't agree with them.
Yeah if they overturn Obergefell it certainly won’t be because it’s “very unpopular.”
There are even polls showing a slim majority among republicans supporting same sex marriage
The same polls showing 90% for universal background checks?
A lot of people don't really care, myself included, but we are tired of being told that we should have to bake a cake for these people.
Obergefell seems to have extremely large reliance interests though. And it's extremely popular.
Not among superstitious bigots, it isn't popular.
And those are the people the Republican Party flatters during its final flickers of relevance in modern, improving America.
Obergefell is not in fact unpopular, let alone "very" unpopular.
While it is unlikely that this court, writing on a clean slate, would have decided Obergefell the same way, there is no chance that they will revisit it at all, let alone overturn it.
I wouldn’t be so sure. There are certainly 2 votes for cert. Probably 3.
Aside from the obvious fact that "probably 3" votes aren't enough for the issue to be revisited—in what context do you envision such a case arising?
See below. All it takes is a clerk to deny a license.
So:
1) the current court would not have decided the same way on Obergefell if had been theirs to decide
2) the current court felt the need to go out of its way to overturn Roe because they felt it was badly decided
3) so there is no chance they'd choose to overturn another decision they don't like?!
No chance? As in absolute zero? What could possibly prevent them?!
There are much stronger arguments for Obergefell. There are much stronger arguments for stare decisis for Obergefell. There is little to suggest that they "don't like" the decision. And there's some, but not much, of a constituency for overturning it.
I don't know why people don't understand that overturning Roe was a half-century commitment of conservatives that they never wavered from. They were willing to accept incremental gains because they're more pragmatic than liberals often seem to be, but they kept their eye on this goal all this time. That simply does not describe any other one of these issues. Oppose the legalization of gay marriage? Sure. But after Obergefell was handed down, they didn't mobilize on a wide scale to overturn it. Ditto for gay sex and Lawrence. Abortion is different.
The current SCOTUS is quite solicitous of free exercise claims, no matter how tenuous. A federal district court in Ashland, Kentucky, following Sixth Circuit precedent, has granted summary judgment against Kimberly Jean Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis in a civil rights damages action for her refusal as County Clerk to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/KIM-DAVIS.pdf
When Ms. Davis petitioned for certiorari from the Sixth Circuit's denial of qualified immunity in that case, Justice Thomas, joined by Justice Alito, expressed sympathy for Ms. Davis's free exercise of religion claim (albeit concurring in denial of cert because the issue was not clearly presented). When the damages case again makes its way up the appellate ladder, it may present a vehicle to reconsider Obergefell in the first instance.
Loving was based both on equal protection and on substantive due process grounds. What if the historical analysis set forth in Dobbs were applied to state statutes prohibiting miscegenation (which were in force in many states when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted)? One such statute, enacted in 1866, was upheld by SCOTUS against an equal protection challenge in 1883.
How could the Loving court ignored this super precedent???
The Warren Court in Loving did not have the benefit of Justice Alito's Dobbs analysis and Chief Justice Rehnquist's reasoning in Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 US 702 (1997).
Loving wasn't an originalist decision, except in some pretty strained retrospect.
Originalist Loving would be the perfect example of “originalism makes no sense.” The best “originalist” explanation would be something modern originalists and conservatives would hate: high level generality about the text and a beautiful nod to the concept of America’s unfinished revolution.
Historians would be like: yeah but except for the most radical ex-confederates (yes them) no one thought the 14th would alter the family/social/cultural order like that. Wasn’t the intent; wasn’t the widely accepted meaning. The most radical republicans thought in terms of political rights that would help the new freedmen represent themselves so that they could (separately) achieve the ideal Home.
Indeed, Lochner makes more sense on “originalist” grounds. You could ground it in Free Labor ideology of the Republican Party from it’s beginnings until then end of Reconstruction. Much easier to do than Loving honestly.
We are talking about "potential human life" so, when the law makers get bored, expect an anti-contraception law in a deep red state.
Griswold is going nowhere, because I don't see any interest in the states in banning contraception. No ban, no Article III case for SCOTUS to play with.
OK, but that's a pretty weak argument. What would happen if it came to the court.
Let's some state had a large number of conservative Catholic voters, and the legislature passed such a ban.
Now what?
Can we all play hypothetical that ain't ever happening or just you?
It's not an argument at all. Let alone a weak one. It's an observation that in the current political climate such a law is unlikely to pass, and hence SCOTUS will have no opportunity to review its Constitutionality.
I once saw someone comment on the fact that it took until 1970 and the case of In re Winship for SCOTUS to hold that in a criminal proceeding, guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The person thought that incredible. But anyone who knows anything about how the Court works should not think so. That rule has long been the rule in the US, so no court did otherwise. The Court simply never had occassion to review the question. It's only much later, when NY passed a law that in juvenile court, guilt could be established under a lesser standard, that the issue even came up, and the Court ruled.
Setting aside that your comment is as realistic as, "Let's say that some state decided to make Urdu the official state language," what would happen is that the first federal judge to hear it would immediately enjoin it, since Griswold is still controlling law. If the state appealed the circuit court would uphold that, since Griswold is still controlling law. And then if the state petitioned for cert, the Supreme Court would not grant the petition. SCOTUS only hears the cases it wants to hear.
It goes without saying that Dobbs does not impact non-abortion rights. The extra effort to make that clear can be understood as simply an attempt to reduce the expected outrage, as well as to clarify the decision. The reason that nobody joined the Thomas concurrence was that that would have been inconsistent with the attempt to calm the disappointed.
The court said that for a right not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution to be deemed fundamental the question is whether the right is “deeply rooted in [our] history and tradition” and whether it is essential to this Nation’s “scheme of ordered liberty.” With respect to the right to an abortion, “The inescapable conclusion is that a right to abortion is not deeply rooted in the Nation’s history and traditions.” Why wouldn’t it follow that other rights, also not deeply rooted, would seem to be similarly threatened by the Dobbs rationale?
Because they want to limit the number of assassins?
Yes, perhaps better to let the Dobbs assassins lose focus before arousing the Obergefell assassins.
Given the logic of why abortion is not a fundamental right, I think the other decisions can only survive because of stare decisis, and only then on the basis of no other potential life at stake. It's pretty clear Roberts and Kavanaugh won't disturb those precedents, but there might be four votes to do so.
Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence includes a pro forma disclaimer of questioning Griswold v. Connecticut, Eisenstadt v. Baird, Loving v. Virginia, and Obergefell v. Hodges, but I don't trust him. (Recall his confirmation hearing testimony that Roe v. Wade is settled law.) The balance of Kavanaugh's concurrence is consistent with revisiting these decisions should the question come before the Court. Each recognized a constitutional right not mentioned in the text of the Constitution.
Kavanaugh blathered that "This Court therefore does not possess the authority eitherto declare a constitutional right to abortion or to declare a constitutional prohibition of abortion" and "In sum, the Constitution is neutral on the issue of abortion and allows the people and their elected representatives to address the issue through the democratic process." Why would he not apply the same analysis to state statutes prohibiting contraception and/or regulating marriage?
You mean the way Goldberg's concurrence in Griswold included a pro forma statement that the constitutionality of Connecticut's laws against adultery and fornication was "beyond doubt"?
Wait till you see what Kagan and Sotomayor said about Heller!
"(Recall his confirmation hearing testimony that Roe v. Wade is settled law.)"
Plessy v Ferguson was settled law. Until it was not.
I love that a court that has, repeatedly, overturned decisions that were bad is NOW horrifying because they...overturned a decision that was bad.
One oft-repeated argument against legalizing same-sex marriage was the (false) assertion that these couples could not procreate. Not lives at stake but certainly--if you believe the false narrative--society taking on the burden of more married couples without getting the benefit of new lives out of the bargain.
You want to explain how same-sex couples can procreate? Has genetic sciences progressed to the point where scientists in the lab can take DNA from two sperm cells or two egg cells and combine them into a zygote that will grow into an adult human being? (We'll leave aside the fact that, once you've separated reproduction so far from sexual intercourse, there's really no reason we need an institution called "marriage" to give legal and societal recognition to sterile pair-bonding).
A F/F same sex couple could get a sperm donor and use the turkey baster method.
The F/F couple, then, is not procreating. The F and the M who supplied the sperm are.
...and the M can still be on the hook for child support after the fact.
Never liked that argument. M wife and I married long after childbearing age. Does that mean our marriage should be invalid? Does that mean any woman with a tubal ligation or man with a vasectomy is not marriage material? How about a woman who survived ovarian cancer at a young age? Should she remain a lifelong spinster?
Never liked that argument.
Good. It's an idiotic argument, for the reasons you provide.
As is "We don't want it foisted on us," as if legalizing SSM was the same as mandating that everyone marry a same-sex spouse.
It is native in our tradition to overrule our highest court (Amendment XVI) and to overrule ourselves and our own obsolete thinking (Amendment XXI). The foreign land in which anything can happen is ours to control. So be it.
Then go for it. Roe "created" a right out of whole cloth when positive legislation would have produced the same effect without constitutional issues.
Now the matter is sent back to the voters to decide.
Then go for it. Roe "created" a right out of whole cloth when positive legislation would have produced the same effect without constitutional issues.
I don't think it would have. Sure, many states were legalizing abortion, but not all. So it still would not have been available nationwide.
And?
Gun are much harder to get in some states than in others.
Even with the SCOTUS ruling, it will continue to be the case.
I would agree that a majority of the court has no interest in overturning Griswold at this point. I wonder if a state can define "potential life" under its own terms broadly enough to include semen and, therefore, give a state interest in banning contraception. Alternatively, if they define it as embryos fertilized but not implanted, they could ban a lot of IVF techniques. Lawrence would require an extra step, but, in theory, any non-procreative sexual practices could fall if Griswold falls.
Obergefell is clearly distinct based on the majority opinion's reasoning. I'm less confident that there are five Justices who want to uphold the decision (compared to Griswold) but I do think the justification for overturning the case would have to walk back the reassurance language found here.
The common "pill" form of birth control prevents pregnancy post-fertilization as well. IUDs also.
To anyone that scoffs at the idea non-procreative sex could be criminalized as well, just remember how sodomy laws were written versus used. While they banned sexual practices common among heterosexuals, like oral sex, they were largely only aimed at homosexuals.
I didn't see any attempt at walking back assurances that Roe was "settled law." I don't see why any of them would feel encumbered by even their own prior statements.
That is not correct.
"I didn't see any attempt at walking back assurances that Roe was "settled law.""
Times change. Sorry if you do not get what you want 100% of the time.
The bottom line to the question regarding the risks to other unenumerated rights is this: The most recent three justices confirmed to Senators, both Republican and Democrat, that Roe was "settled law." They said they weren't going after the right to an abortion. And then did exactly that.
Why would anyone take their four "don't worry, we won't do that" statements as anything other than assurances they won't pull the football away at the last minute this time?!
No reason.
"The most recent three justices confirmed to Senators, both Republican and Democrat, that Roe was "settled law.""
They did.
"They said they weren't going after the right to an abortion."
And, that they did not do.
They most certainly did, you idiot.
A quote, or it didn't happen.
Abortion is illegal now nationally?
Kagan and Sotomayor likewise described Heller as "binding precedent" and "settled law". If you think that description is equivalent to a pledge or never vote to overrule the decision in question, you would seem to have a pretty tenuous grasp of how these things work.
Nice strawman.
If you think stare decisis means "overturn for no other reason than having an ideological majority now, after being upheld numerous times in multiple Federal courts previously" then you also have a pretty tenuous grasp of how these things work.
See how fun this is?
The term 'settled law' can be used either in a normative or descriptive way. So, for example, yesterday I could say, 'Roe is settled law', and mean either, that it is not to be revised in any way because it is settled (and/or was a good decision) or that it is currently the law of the land (however, it was decided incorrectly and should be changed). So, saying that Roe was settled law didn't necessarily bind any potential justice from overturning it.
Where is dilan esper? Do you still feel the same way?
Roe was settled law. That did not mean it was decided correctly.
Obergefell is also settled law. It will have to stand or die on its own.
Where "correctly" is measured by the political will of the current court majority.
When dealing with a decision representing a policy choice, what other way of measurement is there?
Not to make any decision at all, which would be a valid choice in this situation given stare decisis.
The number of justices on the Supreme Court isn't even settled law by any measure.
It can be changed by 51 senators, 218 House members, and a president (who signs or refrains from a veto).
See you down the road apiece, clingers.
How long is "apiece", do you reckon?
Could be a few years, could be a half-dozen or so.
It likely depends on the pace at which even more conservative bigots die off and are replaced in our electorate by better, younger Americans.
Actually agree with you Jerry, but at the rate your side aborts it's own, they'll be better, younger, "Klingier" Amuricans.
All it takes is for one clerk in Texas or somewhere to deny a marriage license and their AG to back them up all the way to SCOTUS. Paxton would do it in a heartbeat. And whether the 5th circuit (assuming they even keep bother to enjoin the clerk) or SCOTX is stayed is up to SCOTUS on the shadow docket. We could probably find out relatively soon if they mean that. (We know for a fact Alito doesn’t).
As for Griswold, I think thats more likely to disappear than Lawrence. Remember, this was the question presented in Dobbs: “ Whether all pre-viability prohibitions on elective abortions are unconstitutional.” (Taken from the petitioners’ cert petition and opening brief) That is not the same as overturning Roe and Casey and they didn’t need to overturn them to answer in the negative. So Griswold is on the table because the next step is to ban various forms of contraceptives or claim some are abortifacients (whether or not that’s strictly true). Now it’s potentially more likely they’ll allow those bans without overturning Griswold, but that’s not a foregone conclusion based on where they’ve gone before. They’re certainly willing to overturn things no one asked them to as Dobbs demonstrates!
As for Lawrence, well, it needs to get to the court, which means 1) a state needs to repass a sodomy statute and a prosecutor needs to charge it 2) a prosecutor needs to charge one on the books now, or 3) a cop needs to arrest someone for it and the victim sues under 1983.
Option 3 is tricky because a victim might not bring a 1983 knowing the stakes and would only challenge if the charges stuck. Option 2 is also risky because some of the old statutes banned heterosexual sodomy too. Since every member of that court and their clerks have almost certainly engaged in an act of sodomy at least once…I don’t think they’re in the mood to re-criminalize that. (If you think Brett K has never gotten a BJ, I have several bridges in Brooklyn to sell you). This is also why I have a difficult time imagining a state legislature will re-ban all sodomy.*
As for passing/enforcing a homosexual conduct only sodomy ban, the court could simply say that substantive due process isn’t a thing and doesn’t bar it. But there’s also the equal protection problem O’Connor highlighted in her Lawrence concurrence. The majority would need an extremely homophobic anti-gay opinion to get around EPC and the rational basis test. Alito and Thomas certainly would write that. That seems less likely coming from Gorsuch/Kav/even Barrett. So the rule on Lawrence is actually the only one I’m confident stays the same.
*insofar as a key component of right wing psychology/ideology is the need to engage in blatant acts of hypocrisy as a form of social dominance, I can also see conservative legislators passing a heterosexual sodomy ban too and the court upholding it, and then engaging in those acts any way, because, well, who’s going to stop them?
You recall that Thomas — while opposing the SDP argument for Lawrence — also denounced the Texas law in question, right?
If you think he’ll stick to that…I have many bridges to sell you. Thomas also signed onto the Scalia dissent in Lawrence which was more explicitly anti-gay. And in any event he can assign it to Alito. Alito wouldn’t care about praising Burger’s prescient opinion in Bowers.
Must be nice to just let your assumptions replace thinking.
I don't believe Thomas' Lawrence dissent was meant to express his disapproval of the law (although he did so). He instead called the law "uncommonly silly" (quoting from Griswold) in order to express his disapproval of Griswold.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Yes, of course it was a callback to Griswold — and part of the point of both was that silly != unconstitutional. And he also said that he would vote to overturn it if he were a legislature.
When I was living in Nevada in the 1980s, their "Crimes against Nature" law was a full ban on Sodomy. Outside of using it to charge heterosexual pedophiles and rapists, I don't recall hearing about it being used to go after consensual heterosexual relationships. It was, however, used first to go after homosexual men, and then later was used as a means of "soft" oppression as the basis for denying parade licenses and similar once publishing the photos of men rounded up in gay bar raids became unseemly.
Right. That’s part of the need for social dominance thing. Sure it’s banned, but the in-group isn’t bound by the clear meaning so it’s not enforced against them.
Like Afro-Amuricans saying the "N-word"
Why do the Volokh Conspirators so aggressively court racists, gay-bashers, misognyists, and immigrant-haters as a target audience?
Why should strong law schools hire bigot-friendly movement conservatives for faculty positions, rather than letting them gravitate toward the conservative-controlled, fourth-tier, nonsense-teaching, clinger-friendly campuses that are their natural home?
I don't know Jerry, why are you hear?
Given Bostock, Gorsuch might uphold Obergefell and Lawrence on EP grounds, and convince Roberts that is enough to respect stare decisis.
Right. And to the extent anyone on the court wants to be consistent, a strong rational basis equal protection regime is pretty useful to a court that wants to thwart all manner of government policy. Save Lawrence/Obergefell but overturn Lee Optical.
The majority would need an extremely homophobic anti-gay opinion to get around EPC and the rational basis test.
Is all morals legislation trumped by the EPC? What about the exhibitionist male in the park who likes to walk around naked? If this could still be prohibited what is the distinguishing characteristic from a constitutional standpoint?
No. But what’s the legitimate state interest in creating a legal distinction between a man giving another man a blowjob or a woman giving a man one? The only rationale would be ones about how gays are gross and society used to think so. But there’s really no legitimate government interest in enforcing that distinction. The act is the exact same thing in either case.
But what’s the legitimate state interest in creating a legal distinction between a man giving another man a blowjob or a woman giving a man one?
What’s the legitimate state interest in creating a legal distinction between a man walking around naked and a man walking around fully clothed? The only rationale would be the one about how the human body is gross. What is the legitimate government interest in enforcing that viewpoint?
Blowies might not be covered but the legitimate state interest in stopping unprotected anal sex by hypergamous individuals would be to stop pandemics of VD including AIDS and Monkeypox, and unprotected anal sex by hypergamous individuals happens multiple orders of magnitude more often among male gay couples than any other group.
Presumably the prohibition applies to women as well?
Somehow, this particular activity is associated with men.
The law disparately impacts men, but an EP violation requires disparate treatment.
Justice Alito's caveats about the impact of this ruling on other substantive due process rights -- e.g., "[n]othing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion" -- bear all the sincerity of then-Judge Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing testimony that Roe v. Wade was settled law.
Justice Thomas said the quiet part out loud. Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965), Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), and Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. 644 (2015), are at risk.
It is peculiar that Thomas did not include Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), in his listing of suspect decisions. (Perhaps he regards substantive due process, like affirmative action, as a really crappy idea for anyone whose first name is not Clarence or whose last name is not Thomas.) Anti-miscegenation laws were widespread in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, including the statute upheld in Pace v. Alabama, 106 U.S. 583 (1883). https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA441492697&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=00024341&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=tel_oweb&isGeoAuthType=true
But for Loving, Clarence Thomas could be at risk of a low tech lynching.
He's mentioned it before; he claims he thinks Loving was correctly decided because the law in question banned the private acts associated with marriage, and that the state can't do that. So if he remained consistent, he'd uphold a ban on forcing states to recognize interracial marriages.
Of course, he's lying, about everything. That's not what the law in Loving did, it banned "marriage" itself. And it's inconsistent with his opinion on everything else.
If he wasn't in one himself, he wouldn't even be pretending.
Yeah. His convenient omission of Loving is...interesting.
Thomas was inveighing against substantive due process, and Loving was also held to violate the equal protection clause. Furthermore, he was not attempting to list all cases that relied on substantive due process.
Maybe his concern along this front will change if Ginni Thomas is incarcerated for her un-American crimes.
like you were for your Un-Natural crimes?
Perhaps in the spirit of President Clinton’s questioning of what the meaning of the word “is” is, one might wonder what the justices think it takes “to cast doubt on” precedents that do not concern abortion.
The "reassurance passages" are written by now proven liars and perjurers, so not reassuring at all.
Can you quote the perjury you are referring to?
In every SCOTUS confirmation hearing, every future justice claimed Roe v Wade and Griswold were settled law protected by stare decisis. No one believed them, but that does not make it not perjury.
Do you think that “settled law” means the same thing as “precedent”? Would the members of the Brown court have said during their hearings that Plessy was settled law? Would you charge them with perjury after Brown?
And yet "there's now six of us" does not qualify as a 'strong reason.'
Did you read the decision? It had quite a length section explaining why there were strong reasons to overturn Roe.
How about you go review those, then get back to us?
I can't wait until several sections of this decision are quoted by those overruling it.
Sleepy Joe (up at 12:30pm? talk about Elder Abuse) on the decision
"I believe Roe v Wade was correctly decided"
Well that does it, has that Idiot been on the right side of anything?? (Bin Laden Raid, Desert Shield/Storm, Iraq Invasion)
Oh yeah, the "Crime" Bill, (the nerve, sending Criminals to jail!!!)
but now he says he was wrong of the one decision he was right on...
Frank
Given the slow pace of "justice" in this country I don't think any of the cases mentioned above are in much danger and certainly not by this Court.
"What sharply distinguishes the abortion right from the rights recognized in the cases on which Roe and Casey rely is something that both those decisions acknowledged: Abortion destroys what those decisions call "potential life" and what the law at issue in this case regards as the life of an "unborn human being." See Roe, 410 U. S., at 159 (abortion is "inherently different"); Casey, 505 U. S., at 852 (abortion is "a unique act"). None of the other decisions cited by Roe and Casey involved the critical moral question posed by abortion."
So, are they stupid, or do they think everyone else is so stupid?
I wouldn't put it past anti-abortion extremists to not know this, even the ones on the Court, but Griswold absolutely implicates the exact same question when many birth control methods involve forcing the body to dispose of a fertilized egg (what they think is a full moral human life to be protected).
False.
It's one of the ways an IUD operates, and some of the morning after pills work the same way.
Given that estimates are that up to 50% of fertilized eggs will fail to implant regardless of intervention, I don't see how it matters. Besides, as far as I can tell, there is still a fair amount of scientific debate about whether Plan B, at least, can actually prevent implantation. The history of its approval for OTC use suggests that the company seeking approval from the FDA bowed to pressure to include a statement that it might work that way on the label from anti-abortion forces.
Who cares—we have a million frozen embryos in IVF clinics and many will end up in the trash and if they are implanted in a woman over 42 they will most likely never implant and the embryo will die a quick death. Wealthy Americans aren’t going to procreate via humping by 2030 and they will run tests on embryos and discard the ones with issues. My advice is keep the male embryos with clubbed feat so they can’t join the Army or play little league baseball…parents hate their weekends wasted watching little league baseball. 😉
Nah; people used to think that's how IUDs worked, but the most current research is that they prevent fertilization.
It is rather amazing that in 50 years of major advances in medical science, biological science and relevant technologies, the convenient political views of what human life is and when it begins have not changed in the minds or arguments of polemicists.
No one wants to "believe in the science" when it is inconvenient.
No, because those aren't fundamental rights (unless you're defining "fundamental" to mean "ones that I really like").
On Obergefell, how about a Compromise??,
Same Sex Marriage is legal, but only between 2 Hot Lesbians, preferably those who enjoy making out in public. Could even make it an "Affirmative Action" thing, where we'll let Male Homos get married when things equal out, you know, never. (Like with the "Racial Affirmative Action", what, we have to have 44 straight Black Presidents before we get another old White guy?)
Frank
Isn't Home Invasion at least a similar kind of issue? I think neither wing of the court want's to deal with that in regard to abortion. The left could not say there is a right to kill because it would legitimize home defense and the Right could not recognize a right to kill because it would at least legitimize early term abortion.
It’s odd that Professor Carpenter appears unaware of the concept of “dicta.”
It's more odd that Prof. Carpenter continues to associate with a bigot-friendly right-wing blog.
Or a convicted Pediofile, Jerry.
It's odder that you think you know more about how to read a SCOTUS opinion than Professor Carpenter does.
I think there is a sort of practical test with two parts. First, the decision has to be doctrinally illegitimate. Second, it has to so to so divide the country that federal elections turn largely on whether the candidates are likely to select Supreme Court judges for or against the issue, essentially distupting normal political and judicial processes.
It seems pretty clear under Dobbs that the first criterion is met. Dobbs lifts reasoning right from the Bowers v. Hardwick majority and the Lawrence and Obergefell dissents. The doctrinal reasons for not considering abortion a fundamental right seem pretty much the same as for the others.
So is the second criteria. Griswold seems to have faded completely into the dust. There doesn’t seem to be any jurisdiction, even a local one, that is hankering to prohibit contraception wholesale, and it just doesn’t register in national politics. Nobody cares anymore.
Lawrence and Obergefelle it’s in all candor pershaps a little too early to tell. Opposition seems to be relatively subdued and subsiding. But organized opposition to abortion was relatively subdued in the 1970s, and really only picked up in a really big way in the 1980s. Perhaps that will happen. In addition, opponents of Obergefelle and Lawrence have been more or less focusing their opposition on Roe. So it is at least possible that opposition will pick up in a few years, and if Dobbs sticks, people on the conservative side will focus their attention on these cases and people willing to nominate and confirm candidates who will overrule them.
But whether that will happen remains to be seen.. It’s also possible that, like contraception, attitudes will change ao fundamentally that the cases will be a dead letter as there will be little active organized political forcce to overturn them, as opposition more or less loses its for e and peters out.
Dobns does suggestthat there has to be an organized, persistant, pervasive opposition so strong as to indicate that a large swath of the country simply refuses to accept the precedent and actively works to overturn it before the Court will reconsider it.
But organized opposition to abortion was relatively subdued in the 1970s, and really only picked up in a really big way in the 1980s.
Randall Balmer, a professor of religion at Dartmouth College, has a very interesting take on the history of the religious right. He points out that some evangelicals were actually happy with the Roe decision, and the Southern Baptist Convention, in 1971, reaffirmed in 1974 and 1976, had passed resolutions calling for the legalization of abortion.
W. A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas and sometime president of the Southern Baptist Convention, issued a statement praising the ruling. “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person,” Criswell declared, “and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”
But what else was going on at around the same time as Roe was the Nixon IRS going after the tax exempt status of "segregation academies" (Christian private schools that refused to enroll black students). Motivating evangelicals to become more politically active as a bloc was a goal of those that founded the Moral Majority and similar groups. But defending segregation wasn't going to be very palatable. Abortion, previously viewed as a Catholic thing, turned out to be very useful. It is also a handy trope to portray themselves as being persecuted for their religious beliefs in defense of "tradition" (and babies).
But whether that will happen remains to be seen...
That history I discuss above and recent history shows us that conservatives will not be content to have overturned Roe. We see it already with attacks on LGBTQ+ rights (especially trans identity issues) and claims of "grooming" kids by simply acknowledging that gay people and trans people exist. Add in the outrage over CRT "telling white people that they are racist", and it is clear that conservatism has become almost entirely based around convincing their base that various others are looking to bring them down.
This is not going to stop as long as it keeps working. And it won't stop working as long as they can win the Presidency and the Senate with a minority of the country supporting them and use gerrymandering to keep control of other legislative bodies.
"We see it already with attacks on LGBTQ+ rights (especially trans identity issues)"
Seems like the issue is not LGBTQ+ but, primarily, T. And that is primarily due to unfairness in sports (E Germany used to cheat like hell in this manner, mind you) or concerns about teachers indoctrinating young kids without parental approval. Hardly "attacks".
You're aware that teachers can discuss it with kids as young as 8 (this is the big issue) IF THEIR PARENTS ARE ADVISED OF IT. Which should be expected, but apparently, this is shocking.
Not sure why it is so damned vitals for teachers to discuss sex with kids, but you seem to be quite insistent on it.
E Germany used to cheat like hell in this manner, mind you
Uh, giving female athletes performance enhancing drugs like male hormone steroids is not the same thing as trans female athletes competing. A trans female takes drugs to suppress the production of male hormones. They do that because they want to have as close to a female body as they can. I am somewhat on the fence on the issue of trans women competing in women's sports. I can see both sides of it. Lia Thomas won the 500 yard freestyle at the NCAA swimming championships (by just under 2 seconds at 4:33.24), but I had heard that it wasn't the only event she competed in, and she didn't medal in anything else. So it isn't like she dominated completely or anything. Generally, I think it would be rare enough to not be a big deal. And I certainly can't imagine someone transitioning because they wanted to compete in women's sports instead of men's. In any case, it is something that should be debated calmly with respect for all concerned, not based on knee-jerk reactions and emotions and especially not used as a political football by either side.
... concerns about teachers indoctrinating young kids without parental approval.
What exactly is the boundary between education and indoctrination? Would students reading a short story where a character has two married female parents or two married male parents be 'indoctrination' into believing that being homosexual is not sinful? For some people the answer seems to be yes, even though a character with a married mother and father wouldn't be indoctrinating them into heterosexuality. Sure, portrayal of romantic relationships and sexuality in subject matter that fits the curriculum should always be age-appropriate, but that is always going to be a subjective criteria. What you consider to be age-appropriate is likely to be different than what some other parents think. What I object to, as an educator myself (high school science), is how it is being made a political, "culture war" issue led by activists and politicians rather than a real debate with professionals and parents listening to each other respectfully.
The Republicans like the governor of my state, Ron DeSantis, are not passing legislation aimed at that kind of debate or to 'protect' the 'rights' of parents that object to something that they disagree with, they are passing laws that would enforce their views on everyone. That has always been the method and goal in culture war debates - each side is so convinced that they are right, that what they believe is what should be considered 'normal' by everyone. That doesn't mean that I think that both sides are equally valid, but I do think that both sides should tone down the rhetoric and use reason more than their gut reactions. I have likely been guilty of this myself around here. Consider this post my effort to do better.
Not sure why it is so damned vitals for teachers to discuss sex with kids, but you seem to be quite insistent on it.
Outside of content explicitly about human sexuality (teaching about the reproductive system in biology, or sex education in a health class, which, by the way, I'm pretty sure my state allows parents to opt their children out of it in public schools), 'discussing' sex would only be relevant to the extent it comes up in discussing historical events or literature. (I can imagine students asking about lines in Romeo and Juliet and whether they imply that they 'did it'.) Also, it is very common for students to ask teachers about their personal lives. I, for my part, usually dodge those questions or won't answer them. But each teacher is different and will do things differently depending on their personality.
When I read about a teacher disciplined at her public school in Texas for having mentioned a vacation she took with her fiance (a woman), I was shaking my head about how no one would have batted an eye or thought it was in any way inappropriate had her fiance been a man. (She had sued for employment discrimination. I can't remember whether she won the case in court or whether the district settled on terms favorable to her, but it was one of the two, as she definitely considered it a victory.)
Again, I can find many examples of people that are calling 'indoctrination' things that are simply an acknowledgement that LGBTQ+ people exist in a way that grants them equal dignity. Those people are only getting freaked out over things being sexual if it involves LGBTQ+ people, when the exact same scenario with 'normal' gendered heterosexual people wouldn't be a problem at all.
When I looked at Dobbs initially, I didn’t pay much attention to the material added between the draft and the final opi ion. The only added material responds to the dissent and the concurrence. The material added strikes me as making it easier to overturn a precedent than the draft. It defends overturning precedents solely becUse the original precedent was thought egregiously wrong. It gave examples including the salute-the-flag cases, where a precedent was overruled 3 years later with no intervening change in law or facts. It also suggested there was no need to wait 50 years for shifting attitudes to overrule Plessy v. Ferguson. It generally defended overriling precedents just because a later court thought them really wrong.
I wonder if Justice Thomas, who joined rhe opinion in full, had some influence over this part of it. At any rate this additional material on stare decisis that was added into the final opinion might cast some doubt on the interpretation I gave above, which had assumed that there wasn’t any substantial change between the draft opinion and the final one on this issue.
All bets are off. SCOTUS is now a joke that everyone can see.
As opposed to the joke that wrote Roe in the first place.
See how that works?
How this works is that conservatives need to find a way to make old-timey bigotry and childish superstition more popular in modern America, or should prepare to be stomped into practical irrelevance by their betters as the culture war approaches conclusion.
Do the "Betters" include Pete Booty-Judge and his Bottom Chaz? If abortion wasn't as common, there'd be a bigger "Supply" of Babies to "Adopt" and they wouldn't have had to pay so much for there pets.
Of course a bigger supply of Babies is gonna make the "Formula" shortage even worse, of course the Booty-Judges don't care, as they have their Domestic Juanita to breast feed (and the babies get some too occasionally)
These are your peeps, Volokh Conspirators. Every one of you, without exception. And this is why your colleagues hope you will expand your employment horizons.
Really tiresome dude. Every once in a blue moon make a point
As is the US Presidency, as the world has seen all too well for 6 years
It is true, as both Justice Thomas and the dissent point out, that rights to contraception, sexual intimacy, and same-sex marriage do not fit easily within the Court's narrow history-and-tradition methodology.
This abortion decision shows clearly why this "history-and-tradition" methodology is fatally flawed. They look to the history and tradition of whether abortion was protected as a right or regulated or prohibited by governments that were not chosen by any of the people most affected by those decisions.
This originalist method is always going to put the thumb on the scale toward whatever conservative white men of the Founding era and then throughout all of the 19th century believed. At this juncture, it is hard not to think that this was the point of originalism.
You know you can change that constitution don’t you?
Thanks for the info, but they already did. It was the ninth one ratified.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The argument between originalists and others is over how to determine when unenumerated rights exist and are deserving of protection. Originalists would have us only look to the past. But as I said, that is inherently conservative and resists expanding the liberties of those that didn't have equal political power in the past.
Ha the last two decisions are exactly correct. There is an explicit right to bear arms. There is absolutely no right to an abortion.
If you want to establish an explicit right to abortion propose an amendment. I heard abortion on demand anytime anywhere is super popular.
2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the state legislatures should be no problem!
Had Katherine Harris behaved like Rafensberger then Gore would have been president. Obviously Gore couldn’t have done a worse job than Bush but 2004 and 2020 elections show political parties should be careful what they wish for…because they just might get it. Although obviously Bush was much more responsible for his parade of horribles than Biden although Bush wasn’t responsible for Katrina which like Afghanistan withdrawal (Trump’s deal with Taliban) started the decline in approval.
I'm glad that it is OK to question every election except 2020.
Based on all of the recounts he lost by media companies after the fact?
"Afghanistan withdrawal (Trump’s deal with Taliban)"
Biden violated the agreement for a photo op and then executed it as incompetently as...well, he does everything else.
Gore won the recounts. And boomer generals have screwed up everything this century…they were always going to screw up the withdrawal.
I don’t have a problem with Trump’s rhetoric.
"Gore won the recounts."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/media-jan-june01-recount_04-03
I can provide MORE links showing your wrong, if you'd like.
"they were always going to screw up the withdrawal."
Do you know WHY Trump had the pull out scheduled for months earlier than Biden ended up doing?