The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Kavanaugh on the Right to Travel to Get an Abortion
This is a tremendously important question, as Ilya's and my posts noted in May. Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence in Dobbs today expressly noted:
[A]s I see it, some of the other abortion-related legal questions raised by today's decision are not especially difficult as a constitutional matter. For example, may a State bar a resident of that State from traveling to another State to obtain an abortion? In my view, the answer is no based on the constitutional right to interstate travel.
I expect this is fairly important because I assume that Chief Justice Roberts and the three dissenters (Justices Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan) and Justice Jackson, who will replace Justice Breyer, would likely go along with Kavanaugh on this. (Indeed, some of the other Justices in the majority might, too.) It's not certain, of course, especially as to Roberts; still, Kavanaugh's pronouncement here strikes me as highly significant.
And this also suggests that laws criminalizing aiding a woman going out of state to get an abortion would likely be unconstitutional, too, since they would substantially burden the woman's right to travel (just as laws restricting contributions to a political organization substantially burden the organization's right to speak). That's important because there might well be states in which the majority of the public balks at criminally punishing the woman who is getting an abortion, but is willing to punish those who aid her (as well as those who perform the abortion).
I should note, of course, that for many women traveling out of state to get an abortion may be quite burdensome, in money, time, and risk of being found out by family members and others. I expect that there will be charities that will help women out with this, but naturally pro-abortion-rights people won't view that as a fully satisfactory answer (and of course anti-abortion people won't, either). Still, the burden of having to leave one's home permanently, or else risk criminal prosecution when one returns, would be vastly greater.
And as a practical matter, if such no-travel-out-of-state-to-get-an-abortion laws exist in some states and are constitutional, it will create a sharp disincentive for many people (and businesses) to move to those states.
Many a woman, I expect, would be reluctant to move for work or school or other reasons to a state where she knows that, should she feel that she needs an abortion, she would have to leave the state abruptly and permanently. Many a man might have the same reaction on behalf of the women in his family, or for that matter on his own behalf in the event that he at some point gets a woman pregnant and she's inclined to get an abortion but would have to abruptly and permanently leave the state if she is to do so (as would he if he aids her).
Naturally, people who believe abortion is murder, and are confident that they will keep believing this, may be largely unaffected by such considerations. But even in solidly anti-abortion states, there are huge minorities (likely both among long-time residents and new arrivals) who don't take that view.
Many a business might also find it much harder to hire employees, especially ones with specialized expertise that isn't broadly available, if they have to go through the same mental calculus in deciding whether to move to the state. I'm not talking here just of people or businesses who refuse to move to some state to make a political statement: Rather, this relates to simple, pragmatic risk analysis. I hope that these considerations may help push states away from trying to ban traveling out of state to get an abortion, though if Kavanaugh's reasoning does turn into a holding, that problem might be solved.
(Query, by the way, whether Kavanaugh's reasoning would also apply to states making an out-of-state abortion actionable in the woman's home state. Such abortions may already be actionable under the normal wrongful death statutes of a state that defines life as beginning at conception, if a man who impregnated a woman sues her for wrongful death for what the law views as the killing of their baby in another state. But perhaps there may be some constitutional barrier to that sort of claim when the abortion was perfectly legal in the state where it took place.)
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I would like to see an analysis of the Full Faith and Credit Clause and Dobbs. Also would like another analysis with regard to gun control. A PA woman with a permit was arrested in NJ for gun possession. They put this black woman in prison, like a criminal. She had to be pardoned by the Governor of NJ.
Would the right to travel be considered a privilege and immunity by justice thomas?
Not if it involves someone getting an abortion, smoking weed, or saying naughty words on the internet.
Martinned: It may well be that Justice Thomas wouldn't consider the right to travel to be protected by the Privileges or Immunities Clause. And to my knowledge we don't have a lot of data points on his views about the scope of that Clause or of the right to travel.
But if your suggestion is that he'd be particularly hostile as a general matter to constitutional claims related to marijuana or indecency, I don't think his track record supports that: He took the view that the Commerce Clause limited Congress's power to regulate marijuana in Gonzales v. Raich, and he voted to protect indecent speech on the Internet both in Reno v. ACLU and Ashcroft v. ACLU (II). He took a less protective view in Ashcroft v. ACLU (I), but the other cases were considerably more significant than that one.
Yet we are told repeatedly that only rights actually mentioned in the Constitution really count.
No inferences allowed.
Where is the right to travel?
Interstate travel is interstate commerce, which states cannot restrict.
-dk
Is it? I suppose that depends on how far your interstate travel is. A single tank of gas gets you pretty far without ever having to engage in any commerce.
How is a state supposed know the pregnancy ended in the first place? Criminalizing out of state abortion is a fool’s errand.
If you don't think conservatives are (gullible) fools, I give you the Republican Party.
No it's not. The interstate commerce clause gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but the right to interstate travel is an individual right under Supreme Court precedent. However, the SC has expressly recognized it is not in the Constitution: ". . . [T]he right finds no explicit mention in the Constitution. The reason, it has been suggested, is that a right so elementary was conceived from the beginning to be a necessary concomitant of the stronger Union the Constitution created. In any event, freedom to travel throughout the United States has long been recognized as a basic right under the Constitution." Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 630.
Write and pass an amendment. Then it will count.
Thomas never said that.
I think the right of travel is a 9th amendment right if there ever was one, and is held against both the states and federal government.
Well, with these GOP Justices the 9th Amendment and $5 gets you a coffee at Starbuck's.
Sorry, by "naughty words" I didn't mean indecency, I meant words criticising Donald Trump.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/03/07/justice-thomas-argues-again-for-reading-%C2%A7-230-immunity-more-narrowly/
Martinned: Help me out here -- can you tell me what in that opinion is about either naughty words or criticism of Donald Trump? Here's the opening paragraph of the excerpt from the opinion:
Thomas also cast doubt that Congress had the power to restrict abortions.
I don't think states have the power to restrict interstate travel, but probably the federal government does, they did assert that power with the mask mandate.
I appreciate this response even though it is not directed to me. Seems like the answer is “no”. That is troubling
SCOTUS held the right to interstate travel to be protected by the Privileges and Immunities Clause in Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999). Justice Thomas dissented.
"Would the right to travel be considered a privilege and immunity by justice thomas?"
It could very well be, given that it was intended to overturn the Dred Scott ruling that black people couldn't be citizens because they would be entitled to privileges and immunities of citizens, including the right to interstate travel.
Given the short shrift historically given the P or I clause, it's hardly surprising that the court's only black justice would be seeking to resurrect it.
Oh really? How do you figure?
So what's the theoretical farthest a woman would have to travel from a "Life" state to a "Death" state??
I'm assuming Alaska will (is?) a "Life" State, so that may skew the results.
How about in the "Lower 48?" I'm guessing from somewhere in the deep South or Montana (Is Montana a "Life" State? they elected that Idiot Testes to the Senate)
It's sort of like "Where's Waldo" if Waldo was a Fetus trying to stay alive
Frank
The proabortion side has shown itself more than rich enough. For just one example the woman who apparently deserved 38 billion for being married to Bezos dropped a fat stack of cash on PP. Her pocket change alone could pay for a travel program that can accommodate everyone in the nation who wants an abortion.
If even a single hypothetical poor barefoot girl misses her california vacation they have only themselves to blame.
Here's a map of where things currently stand.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/06/24/16/57335709-10946059-There_are_18_states_that_have_near_total_bans_on_their_books_whi-a-7_1656085156802.jpg
"I'm assuming Alaska will (is?) a "Life" State, so that may skew the results."
And you would be wrong.
https://reason.com/2022/06/24/here-is-a-state-by-state-rundown-of-what-will-happen-now-that-scotus-has-freed-lawmakers-to-restrict-abortion/
Alaska is way more libertarian than it is conservative. As an example, it was one of the first to legalize recreational weed.
It's a weird mix of hippie and redneck. I don't know how else to describe it.
"It's a weird mix of hippie and redneck."
More frontier mountain man than redneck. A lot of Alaskan's live off grid, and not entirely by choice.
Would “slavery was right!” Be in your ideal alaska constitution?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I should note, of course, that for many women traveling out of state to get an abortion may be quite burdensome, in money, time, and risk of being found out by family members and others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Abortion advocates wildly exaggerate the incompetence of women in order to justify the need for abortion clinics every block. To hear these so called feminists talk about the average woman you'd think she was a barely sentient gelatinous blob incapable of movement.
Traveling to another state is not exactly crossing the plains of mordor. It doesn't take a genius level IQ or gatsby levels of wealth. Vagrants do it. Dumb kids high on weed do it. Even I've done it. Its not like you're going to be stopping by every week to get an abortion like picking up a burger anyway. If you can't swing that. You have bigger issues to take care of before worrying about RoevWade.
The cost of the abortion itself is going to be $500 to $1,000, which is already two weeks' worth of groceries for a woman on public assistance. I suppose she can hitchhike for free (does anyone hitchhike anymore?), but if she ends up having to spend the night at a motel, that's going to be a major bite out of her living expenses. If she lives in Florida and has to travel to Illinois or New Mexico, that's not something she'll do in a day.
I generally agree with your point that where there's a will there's a way, but I think you underestimate just how much of a burden this is going to be.
The amazon hooker alone could pay for every abortion in the nation without breaking a sweat. If the proabortion side wants unrestricted abortion as easy as ordering a Big Mac so much either cough up the cash or they only have themselves to blame.
I anticipate that pro-abortion groups in the states that forbid abortion in some manner will use the money that they would put towards abortion access in the state to increase abortion access out of state. Groups in my state have implied as much. The (maybe) temporary increase in funding might not offset the loss of efficiency, but I think the denizens of those states are okay with that.
I think we are seeing plenty of evidence that there will be no shortage of groups that will explicitly exist to fund and defray those costs. The cost of getting there will be the least of issues.
"If she lives in Florida and has to travel to Illinois or New Mexico, that's not something she'll do in a day."
If she lives in Florida, the Furthest she would have to travel would be South Carolina.
Florida is still a relatively safe place for abortion due to an old Florida Supreme Court ruling. Look at the state by state article over on reason.
People are making assumptions as to what it’ll be like based on their political preconceptions. It’s quite a bit more complicated. The info is out there but no one wants to slow down enough to look.
"has to travel to Illinois or New Mexico, that's not something she'll do in a day."
A day? Of course not, why would the spend a whole day.
A flight from anywhere in the continental US to or from Florida only takes a few hours.
If leftists want abortions to happen so badly, they should start a free service for abortions with free travel included.
Stop whining and pony up. Or just stop whining. Either way, leave everyone else out of it.
Florida is allowing abortion until 15 weeks. That's plenty of time to figure it out.
Do you have a uterus?
We’re going to have a lot more low IQ people now and we’re going to spend a lot more on welfare. Big Baby is happy and they will make even more selling formula…I might even try to steal Big Baby’s secret formula for formula so I can get into the formula business!! I am going to do an FOIA request to see how much money Big Baby has funneled to these “justices”.
As long as we're only forcing women who are too mentally incompetent to get an out of state abortion to raise unwanted children, I believe we're good.
Obviously no one is forced to raise children. Only fathers are forced to pay for children. Mothers can decide to raise children or give them up or abandon them, almost never with any consequences.
"Traveling to another state is not exactly crossing the plains of mordor."
So that's what Frodo and Sam were after, an abortion. And here I thought they were trying to destroy the One Ring.
A recent study found that the average American could not cover an unplanned $1,000 expense. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html. Similar findings abound, and the percentage would likely be much higher for women who would need an abortion.
You are wildly out of touch with the economic conditions faced by most Americans, in addition to being an absolute dunce.
Answering my own question,
Quick perusal (Google Earth) looks like the longest distance a Woman would have to go to kill her unborn baby would be from Corpus Christi TX (Fitting, if you're living in a town named after Hey-Zeus maybe don't kill your baby) Closest "Death" state appears to be Colorado (and she can smoke some legal Weed afterwards)
Or just go across the River to May-He-Co, let's see how they like thousands of pregnant women crossing their border to NOT have babies.....
Frank
“Answering my own question”
Are you talking to yourself?
People v. Betts, 34 Cal. 4th 1039 (2005): California can prosecute a California resident who drove two minor California residents to Nevada and molested them there.
If this is true, then a state can certainly prosecute a home-state resident who transported another home-state resident (i.e., a fetus, whom a lot of states will now define as a "person") out of state in order to murder them there (i.e., have an abortion).
Molestation is a crime everywhere. Abortion not so much. Although your logic that murder should be punished is a pretty compelling argument that there should be travel restrictions.
Age of consent varies from state to state.
Age of consent in California is 18, but it's only 16 in Nevada.
So if the minors were between the ages of 16 and 18, it would not have been a crime in Nevada.
They were minors. He took them to Nevada to commit a crime in Nevada.
Really no bearing on traveling to another state to do something legal in that state.
Is that the legal distinction? It would make sense if he were prosecuted in Nevada for committing a crime in Nevada, but we're talking about prosecuting him in California under I presume a California criminal statute. Seems to me that the law in Nevada doesn't really matter, unless the CA statute says that it does.
I think it has to be. I mean, why aren’t cops waiting for every flight that comes in from Vegas to arrest people for gambling illegally? Hell, some of them probably did a little whoring as well. Because you can’t arrest someone for doing something legal.
I haven’t seen the specifics of that case, but I’d guess that California argued that the transportation was part of the crime that was finished in Nevada.
Yeah, it's a long opinion with a lot of moving parts, but that's exactly where the court landed on that particular piece. (High-level background: Defendant was a long-haul truck driver who took a couple of underage girls with him on a California-Oregon run, but didn't start molesting them until he was in Oregon.)
BINGO.
They absolutely can ban travel for abortions. Its a crime in their state, and its not just for them to be able to just leave to do it, at least for serious physical harm offenses.
Maybe the current composition of the court won't allow it, but Constitutionally it is allow.
There are other options - a tax for example (see use taxes). And they definitely can ban insurance and companies from paying for it.
I think Congress can certainly punish this under an analogue of the Mann Act if it wants.
And I think a state’s constitutional power to punish transportation for purposes of abortion is identical to its constitutional power to punish transportation for purposes of underage sex. If it can do one, it can do the orher, and vice versa.
"risk of being found out by family members"
Shouldn't the risk be lower than if they got an abortion in a more local clinic? Besides just knowing more people in the area if you end up in the hospital you're more likely to be found out and visited. The only reasonable way I can see the risk increasing without depending on personal situation (you're originally from that city) is that a neighboring state is a common destination for abortion (like Colorado for weed). But those states presumably have more than just abortion to offer so I don't think it's that risky.
Yeah I always wondered how those punishment for travel laws would stand up to a challenge. Seems flagrantly unconstitutional to me.
Of course, Congress could get off their ass and codify that into law. Not specific to abortion just general travel. I can’t imagine half of the Republicans will vote against freedom of movement.
But have they learned their lesson? Democrats have had filibuster-proof majorities (or very close) several times with Democratic presidents and failed to pass a law even though they believed RvW to be at risk. They have a chance to preserve the travel option. Think they’ll do it?
Seems flagrantly unconstitutional to me.
Well, not flagrantly. The right to interstate travel is at best one of those penumbras and emanations that are now fair game, at least according to Justice Thomas.
Kavanaugh’s concurrence says a state can’t prevent it. But he said nothing about the federal government. The Mann Act already prohibits crossing state lines for purposes of prostitution etc.
Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing, "My mom taught me that judges do not deal in abstract principles. They decide for real cases, for real people in the real world."
Kavanaugh concurring in Dobbs, "Second, as I see it, some of the other abortion-related legal questions raised by today’s decision are not especially difficult as a constitutional matter. For example, may a State bar a resident of that State from traveling to another State to obtain an abortion? In my view, the answer is no based on the constitutional right to interstate travel."
so much for the "real cases" with "real people" in the "real world."
I wonder where he read that in the Constitution. (That there's a right to interstate travel.)
He will never be the judge his mother was—NEVER!
This is a tremendously important question
Well, it was a purely academic question, until the Republicans on the Supreme Court voted to repeal the right to abortion. Now, suddenly, overnight, this is a question that's indeed tremendously important.
Meanwhile, I'll just leave this here. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrea-prudente-incomplete-miscarriage-malta-not-allowed-to-get-abortion/
That’s fucking monstrous. I’d like to think that any official who pulled that here would be run out of office.
You might want to think that.
You'd be wrong.
We had four healthy kids but we also had two fourth month miscarriages. It’s devastating. Whenever I see conservatives advocate for or passing laws that mandate that something that dies in the womb must be buried I want to find them and kick their ass. Not only is it cruel, but it’s not possible. The D&C they to to clean out after one is something like using a shop vac.
And making her keep dead rotting flesh inside her body for an extended time is really bad for her health.
The authorities in Malta that decided this deserve a special place in hell.
Malta, the 51st state.
No US state has, or will have, a law that forbids saving the mother's life.
You need to read the article on main Reason that goes state by state. There are a handful of states that have laws outlawing abortion with no health of the mother exception. Your statement is incorrect.
"Your statement is incorrect."
Your reading comprehension is weak. I said "saving the mother's life."
Three posts on the same topic. Nothing else to say or analyze?
Maybe for once they are self-aware enough to realise that a bunch of men discussing why women shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion isn't a great look.
Are some of us self-aware to realize that Europeans discussing American law is not a great look?
Give him a break, it beats discussing murdering old people like in his country.
Someone has to explain civilisation to Americans, because they're sure struggling to figure it out for themselves.
And yet, we're still doing a better job than your country - and the rest of Europe, for that matter.
O honey, you're really not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index#2019_inequality-adjusted_HDI_(IHDI)_(2020_report)
OMG, not a UN "index".
Oh, goodness! An academic's index that measures how well taken care of. One that was explicitly modified to remove economic components, like wealth and individual economic choice, because it didn't produce the results the academic liked.
And then, on top of that, further modified to focus on economic inequality - the final refuge of the jealous. As if civilization in the US is worse because the US median PPP household wealth is three times that of the Netherlands, but the rich US people are even richer.
Misogynist aren't you. Forgetting Barrat.
Whoa . . . turns out Prof. Volokh is prepared to comment concerning the events of the day . . . so long as they do not involve insurrection or John Eastman or "election fraud" lies or Rudolph Giuliani or efforts to subvert an election or Jeffrey Clark or Sidney Powell or just about anything else that movement conservatives (masquerading as libertarians) find politically inconvenient.
#ConservativeCourage
I imagine the following scenario.
Some charitable group organises a bus to drive some Texan women to somewhere abortion is legal. The bus is stopped en route by Texas law enforcement, and the driver and women are imprisoned, though shortly thereafter freed. Texas law enforcement are sued and lo! QI to the rescue.
Of course, the 2A solution is to have someone on the bus carrying a gun and threaten to use it against the cops, but that seems impractical.
Surprised with all of the Gun publicity nobody's noted this....
You can only buy a handgun from a Licensed dealer in the state you're a resident of. (I know, you can buy one legally from a non dealer anywhere)
Sounds pretty "Infringing" to me. The Wimmin-folk will be able to kill their unborn babies in any state where it's legal, sounds like Sleepy Joe even "woke" up (get it?) and's going to allow them to be done on military bases (Maybe even Navy Ships??)
Frank "a pistol never shit/pissed on me"
I'm more interested in EV's take on Thomas going after Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergfell.
The guy is nuts. N V T S nuts.
"The guy is nuts."
Thinking that due "process" includes "substance" is the nutty thing.
And Loving, though Thomas was too chickenshit to mention it.
Loving is not "substantive" due process.
Au contraire. Loving was grounded in both due process and equal protection guaranties:
388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967).
Do you claim that Chief Justice Warren was talking about procedural due process?
Is it any surprise that a website that purports to be "libertarian" and "freedom loving" has so many fascists that would rather rip your rights away?
Surprised with all of the Gun publicity nobody's noted this....
You can only buy a handgun from a Licensed dealer in the state you're a resident of. (I know, you can buy one legally from a non dealer anywhere)
Sounds pretty "Infringing" to me. The Wimmin-folk will be able to kill their unborn babies in any state where it's legal, sounds like Sleepy Joe even "woke" up (get it?) and's going to allow them to be done on military bases (Maybe even Navy Ships??)
Frank "a pistol never shit/pissed on me"
No, you actually can't buy a gun legally from a resident of a different state in a private sale. That applies to long guns, receivers (others), and handguns.
My God!!!! that's literally Pre-Nazi Germany!!!!!!!!!! (actually it is, good thing Private sales are, whats the word? "Private)
Frank "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
Can the federal government ban it? The Mann Act and its litigation history upholding it under the pre-New Deal interpretation of the Commerce power suggests that it can.
The Mann Act suggests the federal government can.
If not, what makes this different from the Mann Act? Why should traveling for purposes of getting an abortion be different from traveling for purposes of adultery, prostitution, having sex with an underage girl (even if the destination state doesn’t think the girl is underage), or anything else the Mann Act prohibited during most of the 20th Century or still prohibits now? The Mann Act, long upheld as constitutional and not an infringement on the right to travel, traditionally prohibited interstate travel for purposes of doing all kinds of things that were legal in the destination state but the Federal government thought wrongful, and still prohibits some.
Dormant Commerce. Also possibly preemption: crossing state lines for immoral purposes is a field that Congress has asserted a right to. (In very many ways.)
Haven't followed this or thought about it, but how would you draft the statute? First, leave out all mention of interstate commerce, or crossing borders, foreign or domestic. Define the state interest in a conceived child within the boundaries. Prohibit any acts constituting a substantial step to the termination of the pregnancy. If abortion isn't a right, then the rights-based interstate travel/domicile calculus (minimum residency for state benefits, etc.) doesn't apply. It's simply something that you can do in one state, but not another. Like buying fireworks, or looking at the Grand Canyon. The actus reus is the substantial step in furtherance, and that's not extraterritorial.
Coarse analogy, but say that State A wanted to protect its population of yellow-bellied sap-suckers. The fact that poachers put them in a bag and took them to State B to sell in the wet markets there wouldn't be a bar to prosecution in State A.
Mr. D.