The Volokh Conspiracy
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From Rabbi Michael Simon (Temple Beth Kodesh) on Abortion, Judaism, and Religious Exemptions
As readers know, I've been interested in the question of abortion and religious exemption claims (see this May 9 post), so when I saw this item by Rabbi Simon, I found it much worth passing along. Rabbi Simon had been a lawyer for 20 years before becoming a full-time rabbi, and who has been an Adjunct Professor of Rabbinics at Gratz College and an Adjunct Instructor in Jewish History at Florida Atlantic University; Temple Beth Kodesh, which is in Boynton Beach, Florida, is "a traditional, conservative, egalitarian congregation." Note that it's a sermon that he plans to deliver tomorrow (we bring you tomorrow's news today), which explains the reference to the Court's decision being "yesterday."
Naturally, there are serious legal questions about whether religious exemption claims from abortion laws should be granted, but I thought it would be good to see this opinion on the subject; if others have other views on religious exemption claims from abortion laws, I'd be glad to forward them as well:
Those of you who've been here for a while know that I do not talk politics from the bimah. But there are three areas that I am willing to, and feel it is my duty to speak about, namely, Israel, Antisemitism, and Religious Liberty. This morning I want to talk about a significant issue of religious liberty, specifically as it relates to abortion.
As you are aware, yesterday the Supreme Court overturned a constitutional right to abortion. It now leaves this issue up to the individual states to decide to what extent, if at all, it will permit abortions. To be clear, I am not speaking about whether I believe the Court was right or wrong or whether I believe there is a constitutional right to an abortion. Frankly, my opinion, as a rabbi is irrelevant. My opinion on religious liberty, is however, very relevant.
As you're probably aware, the State of Florida, for instance, enacted a law limiting abortions after fifteen weeks. Rabbi Barry Silver of Congregation L'Dor Va'dor has already filed a lawsuit challenging that law. There has been quite a bit of press over this lawsuit including in the New York Times and I was interviewed on Monday by the Palm Beach Post about it for thirteen minutes, but my comments were not printed.
So let me share with you a bit about what I told that reporter and what I've been discussing with some experts in the field, especially Professor Josh Blackman who spoke to us on Zoom back in December and will come back to discuss the Court's religion cases next month.
The legalities of Religious Liberty and Church-State issues are complicated and muddled. And there are no easy solutions in a multi-religious society. I can't get into all the nuances or possibilities here. But I'll start with this by way of background.
Remember the controversy over contraceptive coverage in health plans that was opposed by various Christian organizations and businesses as violating their religion? How did you feel about that? What does Judaism say about that?
Notice that I say Judaism. I didn't say Jews. I didn't say rabbis. I said Judaism. As if there is one clear cut version of Judaism opinion out there.
You see, unlike the Catholic Church, Judaism doesn't have one authoritative voice telling us what we can and cannot do. And that is one reason why the debate over contraceptive coverage and the Catholic Church is perhaps a bit puzzling to us as Jews.
But without getting into whether it is right or wrong, or how it should be resolved, since that is beyond my role here, I do believe that we need to be more understanding of that particular religious perspective. And one way of understanding it from a Jewish perspective is to try to reframe the issue with the following example.
Suppose we here at Beth Kodesh, or any other shul for that matter, has a rule which says that all food brought into the shul must be kosher. (I know I'm making this up. But humor me.) And suppose we are offered a program where we provide the use of our space for an organization to provide meals to low-income or elderly people.
Now this program is government subsidized and the government says that it must serve a well-balanced, nutritional meal. And what do they consider to be a well-balanced, nutritional meal? Pork chops, Ham and Cheese sandwiches, or God forbid, Chicken Parmigiana.
Now what would we say to that? Of course, we'd say we can't do that. It violates our sincerely held religious principles. We would merely ask the government to shut down the program for everyone? No! We'd only ask for an exemption from this rule in order to be able to serve matzoh ball soup and cholent.
But should there be an exemption from the law for sincerely held religious beliefs? Of course, in this case we say yes. Because in this case, we can see that they are our religious beliefs, which are in danger of being denied. So now, if you use this particular Jewish perspective, you can better see where the Church is coming from when it asks for exemptions on issues of concern to them, such as contraceptive coverage, etc.
With that as background now let me talk specifically about abortion.
Under Jewish law, halacha, there is no so-called "right to choose!" In the words of the OU, "Jewish law prioritizes the life of the pregnant mother over the life of the fetus such that where the pregnancy critically endangers the physical health or mental health of the mother, an abortion may be authorized, if not mandated, by halacha…. Legislation and court rulings….. that absolutely ban abortion without regard for the health of the mother would literally limit our ability to live our lives in accordance with our responsibility to preserve life."
And the more right wing Agudat Israel had this to say. "Thus, we would have to review the precise nuances of the final decision itself—how, for example, it treats abortion rights when the 'mother's life or health is endangered,' or when the 'mother's sincerely-held religious beliefs allow or require' her to seek an abortion."
Abortion is therefore clearly permitted, if not mandated, in certain instances where the health of the mother is at stake, and that includes, in my opinion based on rulings of the Conservative Movement, the physical and mental health of the mother. How "health" is defined and how it plays out in actual cases remains to be seen. Thus, if there is a conflict between a law denying abortions and a religious claim to have an abortion, the claim might prevail, if not under the First Amendment, then at least under a State's Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
And here's something else to consider, not just for this issue, but in our approach to Judaism and its requirements. And that is sincerity. As Professor Blackman and I have been discussing, one of the issues that will come up is whether or not the claim is sincerely held. Just think about this for a second. If a woman says that she doesn't keep kosher or observe Shabbat and doesn't believe that it's mandated by her religion, can she sincerely say that she believes that abortion is mandated?
"Imagine a hypothetical conversation between the Rabbi and a female congregant:
Congregant: Do I have to keep Kosher?
Rabbi: No.
Congregant: Do I have to abstain from working on the Sabbath?
Rabbi: No.
Congregant: But if my pregnancy may affect my health, am I required to have an abortion?
Rabbi: Absolutely, yes. No question about it.
Congregant: If I choose not to obtain an abortion when my health is in jeopardy, would I be sinning? Would there be disapproval of my actions in any way?
Rabbi: No and No.
In other words, if a person treats far more deeply-rooted rules governing Kosher slaughter and sabbath observance as non-binding, yet deems as binding the interpretation of halacha that affects abortion……." You can fill in the rest….
I'm not going to complicate things for you with all the additional legal requirements and concepts that will arise but just know that if the claim is upheld, the law itself isn't struck down, but rather just like the kosher food example, the remedy is that the woman in question receives an exemption from the law. And as Jews, that's what we ask when our religious requirements conflict with state law. That we be exempted from these laws. The First Amendment and our religious liberty demands no less.
And hopefully now, we as Jews also see the importance of standing up for our religious liberty rights, as a minority religion, as well as standing up for the rights of all religions, even if we don't agree with their teachings.
As one commentator put it, "This kind of religious liberty claim, should be recognizable to those who have successfully obtained religious exemptions from contraceptive coverage requirements under Obamacare, or from civil rights laws protecting LGBTQ Americans, or from public health rules limiting the size of religious gatherings during the pandemic. But will those who have defended the Supreme Court's expansive approach to religious freedom accept that adherents of other faiths might also have sincere religious objections to prohibitions on abortion? The answer to that question hasn't been addressed head-on, but it was surely predictable: Not every religion has an equal claim to religious liberties, and some religious adherents can be deemed less worthy of those claims than others."
If that statement is true then it becomes our task, as committed Jews, committed not only to the practice of Judaism, but also to the ideals of religious liberty, to see to it that these claims, our claims, are not less worthy and are indeed fully accepted by society.
I want to conclude with this anecdote to personalize this issue a bit.
There is a gentleman who comes to our minyan every morning named Marty Zweig. He works in lower Manhattan for the U.S. Park Police and sometimes joins the minyan from his office. And when he does, he puts on his kippah and Tallis and davens from his government office. And he can do that, even if it makes others uncomfortable. Why? Because we have religious freedom, and he has the right to express it his way.
Despite the controversies and difficulties that this issue and similar issues present, let us nevertheless see this as an opportunity to not only be more respectful of others' religious practices as we ask others to be respectful of ours, but at the same time to be more respectful and observant of our own religious obligations, because the more sincere we are in our religious observance the more likely we are to succeed in being able to practice it as we require—and not just see or use religion as an excuse to advance our own personal opinions and beliefs.
Shabbat Shalom
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Dobbs is out now. Now the people and the states can address the question of abortion restriction.
I could not finish this wordy sermon. What is the take home message?
No human authority in Judaism. However, the Torah is pretty authoritative. It says, cause a miscarriage, you should be fined. Kill the mother, you should be executed.
Judaism places a priority on life, on the living. If one has to chose between the life of the mother and of the fetus, it chooses the life of the mother.
Seems like a pretty good view.
Even I was shocked by a passage in For Whom the Bells Toll. The guy, mind you, the guy, was asked by the Italian doctor to choose between the life of the mother and of the baby that could not be delivered.
I would be interested in what the rabbi thinks of the Supreme Court view that religion is defined by the individual, rather than by adherence to some human or published authority.
The leaders of all mainstream religions have endorse vaccination. Where do people get the religious objection to vaccines? It seems to be just personal feelings with a fake, lying religious argument. Yet another lawyer fictitious doctrine.
But according to Mr. Manager, liberal Jews can be ignored because liberals are have no principles.
Mind you, Jews are going to aborting long after this court is dust, and you asshole xian authoritarians, once again, can go suck it.
I like "Hills like White Elephants". ("Today is Friday" is good too, not many 1 act plays set in a Tavern the night after the Crucifixion)
Took me years to realize they were talking about having an abortion.
Frank "Please Please Please Please Please stop talking about Abortion"
Professor Volokh....Shabbat Shalom.
I think that if you only believe something is permitted, not mandated, then there is no religious exemption. You aren’t violating your religion bu refraining from doing a permitted thing. If my religion permits but does not require me to possess an atomic bomb, my religious rights are not being infringed on if the government does not let me possess one.
So to the extent that Rabbi Simon is attempting to argue that religion rights are being infringed if government prohibits something the religion permits, his legal position is simply wrong.
If you aren’t sinning by not doing it (“No and No” to quote Rabbi Simon), then you have religoous basis for objecting if government prohibits you from doing it.
Sorry, you have no religious basis for objecting if government says you can’t do it.
He buried it slightly in heavy prose but the belief that abortion to save the mother from great harm is mandated is quite common, if not the conventional view.
It is 'a' view. I am not at all certain it is a 'conventional' view.
A pregnant woman might well say, "Save the child; the child must live". Is she wrong? No.
Clearly not in the general population, I was talking about in Judaism.
Why did you answer your own question so definitively? In Halacha, only the greatest Rabbis are authorized to answer that question on an individual basis.
In general, one is not permitted to suicide to save someone else's life. [Let's not get into war here; in that situation an entirely different set of rules applies]. However, the considerations of emotional health certainly play a role, and in any case, such a person would rarely be condemned for their actions/inactions.
I believe Commenter_XY thought I was talking about the general beliefs of the entire population and not just observant Jews. After I had written my first message I realized I didn't explicitly mention "for Jews" but then it was too late.
I totally understand the logic in that, but let's look at it a slightly different way. Imagine that you live in a mostly Jewish State that has many laws based in Jewish tradition. But this State also has the same exemptions for religious liberty as we're discussing here.
Should you be exempt from mandatory circumcision for your male children just because your particular religion PERMITS you to opt out of the practice, but doesn't mandate that you do so? Does your religion mandate that you not eat only kosher foods, or does it simply permit you to choose for yourself?
Also, if it's a muslim country they could ask the same question about all kinds of things. Does your religion demand that your women not wear full hijabs? If not, why give you any religious exemption to that law?
The state of halacha referenced might only be important to European Jews. Much of the treatment given by rabbis on the topic was from European Jews and Rabbinical Jews originating in other areas (Africa and Asia) might not agree. There are technically also non-Rabbinical Jews who follow only written Torah (which touches little on abortion) but they are few enough in number to not worry about in the US, though Israel (where most live) often treats them poorly.
Sefardic Jewish halacha on this subject parallels Ashkenazi halacha, to the best of my knowledge.
BTW the so-called non-Rabbinical Jews trace back to the beginnings of the Second Temple, and indeed were the first proto-christians. Recall the new-testament condemnations of the Pharisees [the Rabbinical Jews] by the Sadducees [the non-Rabbinical Jews].
That is true about Sephardic Jews, though they did also originate in Europe and I intended them in that grouping. I was thinking more of the various groups that had remained in Asia without being expelled from Europe at some point, though I suppose their numbers have tragically dwindled in the 20th century.
Wild guess -- this guy is a wingnut rabbi from a wingnut synagogue.
Alright, "Reverend" been waiting almost 50 years for this, and should be a "Good Winner" but that's for another day (this Fall when the Braves win a Second Straight World's Serious, preferably against the haughty Yankees)
"WHO'S THE BITTER CLINGER NOW, BEE-OTCH????!!!!!"
Mwahahahahahahahahah
now back to my usual serious Commentary,
Frank
Winner?
Your team just hit a two-run homer, so the homer fans are celebrating wildly after a long drought with nothing to applaud, regularly getting their asses kicked by teams with better players and bigger payrolls for many seasons . . . but after the hometown favorite crosses the plate your team is still trailing, 14-3, in the bottom of the eighth.
The game, like the culture war, is not yet over but has been settled.
Carry on, losers. And be nicer, lest your betters stop being so magnanimous in victory.
It was a bad guess, Arthur. 😉
This isn't a conservative rabbi from a conservative synagogue?
I strongly doubt you know what you are talking about (or, perhaps, that you are being truthful).
That synagogue describes itself as a "conservative" synagogue.
The smart money is still on this opinion emanating from a wingnut synagogue . . . through at least one wingnut professor . . . to a wingnut blog.
Conservative as in the Jewish religious denomination. Not political affiliation
Not at all. As I’ve mentioned previously, the general position that Jewish religious law compels abortion under a considerably broader set of circumstances than what general secular society might consider life-threatening is a fairly standard position, although by no means a universal one.
And it is a position by many (although by no means all) in Orthodox Judiasm, who umder Professor Blackman’s standards couldn’t have their sincerity doubted.
Rabbi Simon is a Conservative Rabbi. Rabbi Simon’s position, which seems to be that Judiasm would support the woman having an abortion but wouldn’t compel her to have one, seems to be more liberal than the position that would say it is compelled. The Orthodox version of this position applies a general rule thst when a pregnant woman craves something you should give her what she wants, and extends this to saying that when a pregnant woman craves an abortion you ahould give her what she wants.
It could be pointed out that the very terminology of cravings speaks in terms of non-rational beings who aren’t thought of as thinking or acting rationally, or even being active agents able to act on their own. In the pork-on-Yom Kippur example, the sin is not to give the woman who craves pork on Yom Kippur the pork; no agency and hence no possibility of sin attaches to the woman herself at all. The idea that she might be able to get the pork herself simply doesn’t come up.
But there don’t seem to be many people who take the position that because ancient Jewish attitudes towards women should be discarded by modern people, and because pregnant women can be counted on to think rationally, abortion should be prohibited.
To the contrary, people seem very willing to accept ancient attitudes towards woman if it provides a basis for letting them do something they want to do. And stricter positions on abortion tend to take the view that the life of the fetus is part of the life that the general rule about being especially indulgent towards pregnant women (in order to preserve life) preserves.
In Israel, there are certainly women who object to having to pretend that their rational decision to have an abortion is an uncontrollable irrational craving in order to get religious permission to get one. But they go along with the ceremony all the same.
This from a nut commenter.
Look at the link. You are wrong. But that never stopped you before. So carry on.
You mean, he believes in a Higher Power. Or at least in a Power higher than you.
In that, you are correct.
I objected to Professor Blackman’s earlier blanket argument that liberal branches of religion never have religious rights because their whole attitude is inimical to such things. Things don’t, cannot, sweep that far. But in an individual case, if your religion does not compel you to do a specific thing, you don’t have any Free Exercise Clause rights to do it.
That sounds correct to me, Y.
What about a Jewish congregation that holds Shabbat services on Saturdays, but doesn't mandate that anyone come. Just an option if you choose it.
Would it be okay for a town to pass a law that only permits religious services on Sundays? They aren't violating anyone's mandated religious obligations after all.
You can't reason with superstition, bigotry, or belligerent ignorance.
I'm personally a bit torn when it comes to the idea of religious exemptions. On the one hand, they probably do increase net individual liberty, which I approve of (since you can't get an exemption from real rights-violating activities for any reason). But on the other hand, if a law can be violated for religious belief then the law itself is most likely not a justified use of state force to begin with, and exemptions should be allowed for ANY personal belief. As you might put it, I see nothing especially compelling about supernatural beliefs.
And I'm definitely not saying that ReaderY is mistaken when it comes to the law. He's almost certainly more knowledgeable than I am. I'm just not sure I agree with the reasoning on an intellectual or moral level.
For example, I have no (positive) religious beliefs. But I do have very sincerely held moral beliefs (so that's the best comparison I can make). Not only do I have beliefs that my morality mandates (like don't initiate physical violence and don't steal) but I have equally strong moral beliefs about liberty itself as a value. So even though my personal morality doesn't demand that I smoke weed, it does mandate that I have the option of smoking weed.
You, sir, are a common patriotic citizen, and I submit that it is an outrage that a bunch of lousy cork-soakers have violated your fargin rights by taking away the liberties of common patriotic citizens such as yourself, because this entire somanumbatching country was founded so that your liberties could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes, sneaky bastages, and bullshteiners like the Republican Party, the Federalist Society, the Catholic Church, and Stormfront subscribers.
How's Sweden this summer? Did you catch a Stones show?
I would think that there would be a lot of other constitutional issues with such a law. The Establishment Clause for one. Also general First Amendment speech issues, and probably other issues as well.
On the Free Exercise Clause, I think the community is obligated to hold services, but no individual is obligated to come at any given time. I don’t think the concept of communal religious rights would be all that problematic in the American system, however, despite Professor Volokh’s exclusive focus on individual rights.
While it might be the case that individuals wouldn’t have a Free Exercise claim in such a situation, I would think that if the synagogue sued as a corporate entity, it would have a claim. Corporate entities I think are a reasonable fit for the concepts of community rights, the rights of churches or religious communities as distinct from individual members, in the American legal system.
The SCOTUS ruling explicitly authorizes abortion when the health of the mother is endangered. What's the controversy?
the 99.999999999% of cases when it's not.
The seminal case in the Talmud involves a pregnant woman who craves pork on Yom Kippur. The position is that you should give it to her. The Talmudic rationale is that not having pregnancy cravings satisfied is life-threatening to a pregnant women, and in a life-threatening situation there is a religious obligation to act to preserve life which overrides most religious rules (except things like murder) including not eating pork and not eating pork on Yom Kippur. The position that this applies to a woman craving an abortion is that abortion, while prohibited, is more like eating pork on Yom Kippur than murder.
So the issue here should be obvious. No modern doctor is going to say that not satisfying pregancy cravings is life-threatening. No doctor today would write a note saying a woman must eat pork on Yom Kippur or she will die. It’s a purely religious concept of life-threatening, not in any way a medical one.
That’s the controversy.
I'm Jewish, but I'll enjoy bacon once in a while, OK, frequently, some good Pulled Pork BBQ (watta ya gonna do? I live in the South) compromise by sticking to the Hebrew National Hotdogs...
Frank "Religious but you don't have to go overboard"
If I have the core arguments below:
1) not having pregnancy cravings satisfied is life-threatening to a pregnant women
2) in a life-threatening situation there is a religious obligation to act to preserve life which overrides most religious rules
Item 1 is false / makes zero sense.
Item 2 has zero controversy.
A nonsensical argument is being used to create a controversy?
On Item 1, the First Anendment prohibits the state or a court from deciding whether a religion claim is true or false. A court can’t decide whether the Christian claim that if you don’t believe in Jesus you will be in eternal mortal danger is true or false. This simply isn’t any different.
Perhaps a more liberal, less literal interpretation of the Talmudic discussion might be that an unsatisfied pregnancy craving puts you in some sort of spiritual danger. But it doesn’t, frankly, really matter how you interpret it, and it isn’t the state’s or the court’s business in any event.
Rev.. Arthur Kirkland regularly and widely shares his opinion that all religion is nothing but fairy tails. So this one element isn’t, from his point of view, really any different from anything else. And your opinion doesn’t matter either. The fact that you think it’s a fairy tale makes no differnce either. If the First Amendment only protected true religious doctrines, or ones the judges think true, Establishment would be permitted.
Which supernatural claim with respect to any religion is not a childish fairy tale?
As the resident person who tends to defend the rational of laws, with the maxims that people are rarely as dumb as we think they are and we are rarely as smart as we think we are, this one’s rationality is quite eminently defensible.
First, the initial context - pregnant women get an out from fast days and food strictures if they feel they need it - is clearly rational, indeed, pretty sensible folk wisdom. Pregnant women have extra nutritional needs, fasting in a desert climate with no air conditioning can be hard, and if a poor family’s only chicken was incorrectly slaughtered they might be out of luck, so giving an out to eat non-kosher meat can be rationally justified.
Second, generalizing the rule and creating a legal definition is just as rational as numerous generalizations in the American legal system.
And finally, following the legal definition literally even when the literal meaning is questionable happens all the time in the American system. Think of the recent California decision saying bees fell within the legal definition of fish, or the decision that small plastic dinner knives meet the legal deginition of weapons and hence can’t be taken through airport security, into schools.
Creating a legal definition of a “threat to life” that ends up being somewhat broader than whatordinary common-sense might suggest is no less rational than creating a legal definition of a “fish,” a “weapon,” a “crime of violence,” “interstate commerce,” and numerous other examples in American law where ordinary words get a legal definition that results in them meaning something different from, often broader than, what the words might be thought to mean in ordinary usage.
And finally, the reasoning behind doing so is especially rational. The late Justice Scalia, defending strict textual interpretations as opposed to applying judges’ concepts of legislative purpose, regularly argued that judges are often not in a position to fathom the legislative purpose, and therefore should follow what the legislators said, not what judges might think they really meant.
If that’s rational, then it’s even more rational for religious scholars to say we can’t fathom the Divine purpose, all we have is the text, so we’d better follow what it says rather than what we might think it meant. Strict interpretation reflects humility. If judicial humility before Congress is rationally defensible, then surely religious humility before God is even more rationally defensible.
Again, one can easily disagree with it. One could argue that the life of the fetus is what’s most endangered when a pregnant woman craves food on a fast day, and hence the life of the fetus is part of the life that a folk-wisdom traditional rule of being especially lenient toward pregnant women and giving them outs from ordinarily strictures is intended to protect.
But that doesn’t make the argument the other way irrational.
Just write a law review article providing a rationale for why the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA statutes do not require religious exemptions to abortion restrictions. Sympathetic judges will then have a pre-fabricated reasoning that they can apply in actual cases (and you get the citation).
Thanks in advance Eugene. You're doing the Lords work.
That's how it works in the clingerverse.
When Justice Thomas cites that article (after seeing Ginni on visitation day at the prison, ideally), Prof. Volokh can congratulate himself for the cite and use that to bolster his position when UCLA finally decides to cut bait.
Then, when the reality-based world imposes adult supervision on these obsolete losers, they can whimper and whine about it ferociously.
It seems the Jewish law isn't so much a law as a conditional set of conditions which vary from individual to individual. To the extent these give a woman agency that seems to act more to constrain others than the woman concerned. For the woman it seems to come down to her sincerely held belief.
Under the religious tradional rule (as interpreted favorably towards abortion), the woman has to establish that there’s an element of psychological cumpulsion, not just belief. Indeed, while you might think this ironic, if she said to a rabbinical board that she thought should get an abortion because she sincerely believes she should, under the rule they would have to deny her one because the religious criteria wouldn’t be met. Wanting an abortion for rational reasons is simply not grounds for getting one. You have to crave one. There has to be an element of irrational psychological compulsion.
But under the system as implemented in modern Israel, it’s pretty easy to establish, to the point of being pretty much a pro forma ceremony. There would be people coaching her about what to say when she appears before the rabbis. Pretty much all she has to say is that being pregnant makes her feel depressed and she feels she needs one or something like that.
I was thinking more of the US treatment of religious objections. It seems that a "sincerely held belief" is the primary requirement. In fact under the original draft regulations an objector was required to belong to a religion or sect that had a pacifist outlook (Quakers, Mennonites etc.). That was overturned to allow for broader more personal beliefs.
On a personal note during the Vietnam War I lived in a area with a large number of contentious objectors because of a large Mennonite community in the area. I think our draft Board had one of the highest rates of COs in the country.
I think that when it comes to it, the Court will hold that the stsye’s interest in fetal life passes heightened scrutiny.
As i’ve pointed in the past, aliens outside US territory have no constitutional rights, and the word “person” in the Bill of rights no more has “extraterritorial application” than it has “prenatal application.” But that doesn’t mean John Jihadi’s religion gets him a religious exemption to go out and behead foreign infidels. Nor does Chester the Holy Molester’s religion give him a religious right to sleep with underage foreigners. Constitutional personhood status simply doesn’t determine the state’s interest.
" I think that when it comes to it, the Court will hold that the stsye’s interest in fetal life passes heightened scrutiny. "
Which Court?
The Clinger Court?
Or the new, improved, and expanded Modern Court?
Abortion is never needed to "save the life of the mother." That's just a trope invented by pro-abortionists.
People have intentionally created misconceptions about what abortion is. For example, ectopic pregnancies have nothing to do with abortion.
Women, particularly in the modern era, can get pregnant even when their body is in no condition to actually carry the child. Thankfully being in such a condition usually greatly lessens the chance of getting pregnant but it sadly does not eliminate it.
Does not Judaism proscribe abortion?
After all, it is where the Twelve Apostles got their beliefs about abortion.
The normal Orthodox view is that abortion is mostly forbidden, except in the case of great harm to the mother. The dispute mostly lies in whether an abortion in such a case is mandated or not.
The Judaism practiced in the time of Jesus was also much different from Judaism as practiced in the Middle Ages, where Rabbinical Judaism really hit its stride.
The position I outlined above is that the religious concept of a “threat to life” incorporates Talmudic medical doctrines that have nothing to do with what modern medicine says is life-threatening.
This approach, “normal” or not, seems to be a fairly common one. That fact that it’s the position of the Israeli Rabbinate alone means that millions of people in Israel operate under it.
My understanding is that thinking on this issue doesn’t cut actoss traditional lines. Leading proponents of the position come from the ultra-Orthodox camp, while there are leading opponents in the “modern” camp (For example the late Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, known for thoughtful essays reconciling religion and science, utterly opposed it.)
Here again is the basis for the position (See Yoma 82a, paragraphs 8 and 9.) The Talmud presents apregnancy craving, particularly craving pork on Yom Kippur, as the seminal example of a life-threatening situation. The argument that follows is simple. If one accepts that abortion , while prohibited in Judaism, is regarded as something less than murder, then craving an abortion should be treated as no different from craving pork on Yom Kippur.
Indeed, it’s precisely it’s rejection of modern medicine in favor of relying on the Talmud for deciding what’s life-threatening and what isn’t (not to mention the attitude towards women as irrational beings dominated by irresistable cravings) that makes this position a thoroughly non-modern one, and hence something that might be appealing to the ultra-Orthodox temperament. My understanding is that in practice, something is considered life-threatening if EITHER the Talmud or modern medicine says it is.
https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.82a.8?lang=bi
Neither Josh B. nor the good rabbi here can tell me what I should believe as a Jewish person. Unlike some other people's and creeds, we tend to make our own decisions about what is proper and moral and not pay too much attention to dogma, at least in the reformed temples.
Good on you, bh.
I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve passed through the looking glass, but every time I see widespread support for deference to beliefs *because* they are held superstitiously, I know this: The number is odd.
I’ve lost track of how https://bit.ly/3aiwow4 times I’ve passed through the looking glass, but every time I see widespread support for deference to beliefs