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How Should Courts Evaluate Gun Regulations After Bruen?
There's much to be said and debated about the N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen opinions, and who got it right. But for now, I want to turn to the practical question: What does Bruen mean for gun laws going forward?
Here is my very tentative summary of what appears to me on first read, based on Justice Thomas's majority opinion (joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett) plus a bit from Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence, joined by Chief Justice Roberts:
[1.] The right to keep and bear arms generally includes the right to have arms available for self-defense, whether at home or outside the home.
[2.] This right can be limited to the extent that there is a historical tradition of limitation—especially from shortly before and around the time of the Framing, but also perhaps from up to the late 19th century. "[W]hen the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. To justify its regulation, … the government must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation."
And this history must be based on the aggregate of many jurisdictions' decisions, rather than a handful of outliers. Thus, for instance, the Court concludes that "we doubt that three colonial regulations could suffice to show a tradition of public-carry regulation." Later, as to post-Civil-War regulations, it notes that, "we will not give disproportionate weight to a single state statute and a pair of state-court decisions." And as to regulations in Territories, "we will not stake our interpretation on a handful of temporary territorial laws that were enacted nearly a century after the Second Amendment's adoption, governed less than 1% of the American population, and also 'contradic[t] the overwhelming weight' of other, more contemporaneous historical evidence."
But some reasoning by analogy, beyond the precise restrictions that had been enacted in the past, is inevitable and permissible, just as analogies to past practices and decisions are commonplace in other judicial decisionmaking, including in interpreting constitutional provisions:
Although its meaning is fixed according to the understandings of those who ratified it, the Constitution can, and must, apply to circumstances beyond those the Founders specifically anticipated. See, e.g., United States v. Jones (2012) (holding that installation of a tracking device was "a physical intrusion [that] would have been considered a 'search' within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment when it was adopted")….
Much like we use history to determine which modern "arms" are protected by the Second Amendment, so too does history guide our consideration of modern regulations that were unimaginable at the founding. When confronting such present-day firearm regulations, this historical inquiry that courts must conduct will often involve reasoning by analogy—a commonplace task for any lawyer or judge. Like all analogical reasoning, determining whether a historical regulation is a proper analogue for a distinctly modern firearm regulation requires a determination of whether the two regulations are "relevantly similar." …
To be clear, analogical reasoning under the Second Amendment is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check. On the one hand, courts should not "uphold every modern law that remotely resembles a historical analogue," because doing so "risk[s] endorsing outliers that our ancestors would never have accepted." On the other hand, analogical reasoning requires only that the government identify a well-established and representative historical analogue, not a historical twin. So even if a modern-day regulation is not a dead ringer for historical precursors, it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster.
[3.] The right can also be limited by regulations that impose only a modest burden on law-abiding people's ability to defend themselves. "Heller and McDonald point toward at least two metrics" for evaluating regulations: "how and why the regulations burden a law-abiding citizen's right to armed self-defense…. [W]hether modern and historical regulations impose a comparable burden on the right of armed self-defense and whether that burden is comparably justified are 'central' considerations when engaging in an analogical inquiry." Thus, for instance, nondiscretionary licensing requirements for carry permits are constitutional, at least if they aren't too burdensome and are justified by the interest in limiting gun ownership to "law-abiding, responsible citizens":
[N]othing in our analysis should be interpreted to suggest the unconstitutionality of the 43 States' "shall-issue" licensing regimes, under which "a general desire for self-defense is sufficient to obtain a [permit]." Because these licensing regimes do not require applicants to show an atypical need for armed self-defense, they do not necessarily prevent "law-abiding, responsible citizens" from exercising their Second Amendment right to public carry.
Rather, it appears that these shall-issue regimes, which often require applicants to undergo a background check or pass a firearms safety course, are designed to ensure only that those bearing arms in the jurisdiction are, in fact, "law-abiding, responsible citizens." And they likewise appear to contain only "narrow, objective, and definite standards" guiding licensing officials ….
That said, because any permitting scheme can be put toward abusive ends, we do not rule out constitutional challenges to shall-issue regimes where, for example, lengthy wait times in processing license applications or exorbitant fees deny ordinary citizens their right to public carry.
Justice Kavanaugh, joined by Chief Justice Roberts, stressed this in a concurring opinion:
[T]he Court's decision does not prohibit States from imposing licensing requirements for carrying a handgun for self-defense…. Those shall-issue regimes may require a license applicant to undergo fingerprinting, a background check, a mental health records check, and training in firearms handling and in laws regarding the use of force, among other possible requirements. Unlike New York's may-issue regime, those shall-issue regimes do not grant open-ended discretion to licensing officials and do not require a showing of some special need apart from self-defense. As petitioners acknowledge, shall-issue licensing regimes are constitutionally permissible, subject of course to an as-applied challenge if a shall-issue licensing regime does not operate in that manner in practice.
[4.] But if a law substantially burdens the right without having sufficient historical support, it can't then be upheld under "intermediate scrutiny," "strict scrutiny," or a similar test. The government can't simply say that it has a compelling interest in preventing armed crime or other injury, and then substantially burden the right to serve that interest. That sort of approach, the Court says, could end up eviscerating the right altogether:
If the last decade of Second Amendment litigation has taught this Court anything, it is that federal courts tasked with making such difficult empirical judgments regarding firearm regulations under the banner of "intermediate scrutiny" often defer to the determinations of legislatures. But while that judicial deference to legislative interest balancing is understandable—and, elsewhere, appropriate—it is not deference that the Constitution demands here. The Second Amendment "is the very product of an interest balancing by the people" and it "surely elevates above all other interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms" for self-defense. It is this balance—struck by the traditions of the American people—that demands our unqualified deference.
[5.] In particular, the Court signaled that some specific kinds of restrictions are constitutional:
[a.] Restrictions on carrying in "sensitive places such as schools and government buildings":
Consider, for example, Heller's discussion of "longstanding" "laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings." Although the historical record yields relatively few 18th- and 19th-century "sensitive places" where weapons were altogether prohibited—e.g., legislative assemblies, polling places, and courthouses—we are also aware of no disputes regarding the lawfulness of such prohibitions. We therefore can assume it settled that these locations were "sensitive places" where arms carrying could be prohibited consistent with the Second Amendment. And courts can use analogies to those historical regulations of "sensitive places" to determine that modern regulations prohibiting the carry of firearms in new and analogous sensitive places are constitutionally permissible.
[b.] Bans on concealed carry but only if open carry is allowed: "The historical evidence from antebellum America does demonstrate that the manner of public carry was subject to reasonable regulation…. States could lawfully eliminate one kind of public carry—concealed carry—so long as they left open the option to carry openly." In practice, I expect that today the jurisdictions that currently don't have statutory provisions generally allowing carrying (California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and D.C.) would, when forced to choose, prefer to allow concealed carry rather than open carry. But in theory, I expect that such a jurisdiction could follow the 19th-century model in many states by allowing only open carry. Likewise, I expect that a jurisdiction could ban open carry and allow only concealed carry (as I believe Florida currently does, for instance).
[c.] As noted above, nondiscretionary licensing restrictions, unless they involve "lengthy wait times in processing license applications or exorbitant fees" or otherwise substantially burden the ability of responsible, law-abiding gun owners to get a license. Query whether this would also allow waiting periods for gun purchases, and not just for gun carry licenses (a question that the Court had no occasion to decide here).
[d.] Restrictions on gun ownership by felons and the mentally ill: The Kavanaugh/Roberts concurrence reaffirms this point, which was also made in the Heller majority and the McDonald lead opinion: "[N]othing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill." The Court isn't entirely explicit on the rationale for this, but presumably its view is that historically gun ownership had been limited to "law-abiding, responsible citizens." (Query whether "citizens" here means citizens of the United States, or just means, as it often does, all private individuals.)
[e.] Restrictions on machineguns and other "dangerous and unusual" weapons—which probably means unusually dangerous weapons: Again, from the Kavanaugh/Roberts concurrence, quoting Heller and McDonald: "[T]he sorts of weapons protected were those in common use at the time. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."
[f.] "[L]aws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms" (again, based on the Kavanaugh/Roberts concurrence, Heller, and McDonald). Nonetheless, presumably if the laws substantially burden the rights of people to possess guns (rather than just regulating the behavior of the commercial sellers), they may well be unconstitutional.
[6.] Much of course remains unresolved—as is common for any foundational Supreme Court decision (for instance, the Court's early free speech decisions, which left much to be decided in future cases). For example:
[a.] Does the right kick in at age 18 (the general age of majority in the U.S. today) or at age 21 (the age of majority through most of American history)? This may turn on how courts interpret certain late 19th century laws that limited under-21-year-olds' rights as to certain kinds of guns.
[b.] Where would one place bars, restaurants that sell alcohol, or even stores that sell alcohol for off-premises consumption? Many states ban gun carrying in at least some such places, but I'm not sure how deep the history of that is.
[c.] What does all this mean for "red flag" laws? Here's a passage that deals with historical precedents for restricting gun ownership by people based on court orders finding a heightened risk of misconduct on their part, though such statutes required only posting a monetary bond, not surrendering one's guns altogether:
In 1836, Massachusetts enacted a new law providing: "If any person shall go armed with a dirk, dagger, sword, pistol, or other offensive and dangerous weapon, without reasonable cause to fear an assault or other injury, or violence to his person, or to his family or property, he may, on complaint of any person having reasonable cause to fear an injury, or breach of the peace, be required to find sureties for keeping the peace, for a term not exceeding six months, with the right of appealing as before provided." [Some states had similar rules. -EV] …
[T]he surety statutes presumed that individuals had a right to public carry that could be burdened only if another could make out a specific showing of "reasonable cause to fear an injury, or breach of the peace." As William Rawle explained in an influential [1829] treatise, an individual's carrying of arms was "sufficient cause to require him to give surety of the peace" only when "attended with circumstances giving just reason to fear that he purposes to make an unlawful use of them." Then, even on such a showing, the surety laws did not prohibit public carry in locations frequented by the general community. Rather, an accused arms-bearer "could go on carrying without criminal penalty" so long as he "post[ed] money that would be forfeited if he breached the peace or injured others—a requirement from which he was exempt if he needed self-defense."
Thus, unlike New York's regime, a showing of special need was required only after an individual was reasonably accused of intending to injure another or breach the peace. And, even then, proving special need simply avoided a fee rather than a ban….
The Court also noted that the laws were only lightly enforced: "[O]ne scholar who canvassed 19th-century newspapers—which routinely reported on local judicial matters—found only a handful of other examples in Massachusetts and the District of Columbia, all involving black defendants who may have been targeted for selective or pretextual enforcement."
In any case, that's my general sense of the matter; I'd love to hear what others think.
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What do you mean by “who got it right”? By definition, the majority got it right. Anybody who disagrees is an insurrectionist.
Probably one of the biggest losers is Judge Van Dyke on the 9th.
His fake opinion concurrence he wrote for the next 9th circuit in banc has now been overruled.
But I guess 9th circuit end banc panels are even bigger losers.
I expect massive resistance from the 9th circuit, they’re not going to just roll over and play dead.
Prof. V.
Define “infringe” as you think it was meant as used in the 2nd Amendment and would be understood at the time of ratification.
Blacks: “A breaking into; A trespass or encroachment upon; a violation of law, regulation, contract, or right.”
Double cut and past:
Find the phrase “What does Bruen mean for gun laws going forward?” – you will see it twice. once at the top, the other in the middle.
Whoops, thanks, fixed!
So checking your guns at the saloon for as long as it takes to sell the herd is going to be the new precedent?
It was wrong when Wyatt Earp did it, it is wrong now.
idk. I preface this comment by saying my permits are valid in 43 states (soon 50).
I don’t think people who drink (or do drugs) while carrying are responsible gun owners. It lowers impulse control, lowers reflexes (among other things). I dont know if guns should be outright banned in bars – there has to be a designated driver, right – but even in some gun friendly states guns are not welcome in bars and I see the logic.
Interesting – I can see an argument that bearing arms in a bar is not enough to infringe the right, BUT bearing arms while intoxicated falls under the ‘If any person shall go armed with a dirk, dagger, sword, pistol, or other offensive and dangerous weapon, without reasonable cause to fear an assault or other injury, or violence to his person, or to his family or property’ bit (from the surety laws) and thus become illegal and actionable – very similar to how it is totally legal to have an automobile in the parking lot of a bar or the lot of an establishment that sells or provides alcohol, even legal to carry alcohol in your car from place to place, but not legal to consume said alcohol in the car or have a BAC above the ‘you are impaired limit’.
I look forward to a future where I can sit with my family in a bar while they drink and I am armed.
Dang truncated my quote – add “he may, on complaint of any person having reasonable cause to fear an injury, or breach of the peace, be required to find sureties for” as in being inebriated = reasonable cause to fear an injury, or breach of the peace.
Here in Indiana it is perfectly legal to carry into a bar, and we don’t seem to have any problems with barkeeps having to sweep dozens of dead bodies out each morning.
That characterization may be fiction; I have read a few articles saying so, that it was proven false by examining actual records. Similarly, the alleged high murder rate in cowboy towns has been disputed by comparison to newspaper records in contemporaneous east coast cities and western cow towns.
The claims are that the lurid fictions sold paperbacks and matched what urban east coasters expected of the wild west.
In other words, not a lot has changed in the past 200 years when it comes to journalistic integrity…
Academic articles i’ve seen on it suggest that most of the ‘lawless’ (territorial) west was actually less violent than places like San Francisco, which had law enforcement. Cooperation and contractual arrangements were common, even absent law enforcement.
[B] “In practice, I expect that today the jurisdictions that currently don’t have statutory provisions generally allowing carrying …. would, when forced to choose, prefer to allow concealed carry rather than open carry.”
My experience in Michigan suggests otherwise. We were, nominally, an open carry state, where concealed carry was tightly limited. You’d think that would be great for gun owners, you could just walk around packing heat, right?
Nope. Because in the anti-gun jurisdictions, there was an unofficial policy of harassment. If you made sure your gun was ostentatiously visible, you’d be charged with “brandishing”. If you did not, and your arm swung in front of your holster, you’d be charged with illegal concealment. There was no safe middle ground.
In fact, it was gun owners who pursued concealed carry reform, because if you carried concealed, the police would not know you were doing so, in order to harass you.
Anti-gun jurisdictions might go with the open carry option, as it does let them know who to harass, and offers plenty of scope for doing so.
Some states 150-200 years ago prosecuted gun carry as being concealed if even a part of the gun was concealed by a holster. One carrier was prosecuted because the gun was carried by a thong around his neck, and the thong itself concealed a minuscule fraction of the gun. How well such prosecutions would stand up today, I do not know.
What’s the case?
Did the prosecution win?
No idea. It was something I read years ago on nitpicking governments, backing up Brett’s suggestion that governments might get nitpicky about the differences between open and concealed carry.
bran·dish
/ˈbrandiSH/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: brandishing
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
“a man leaped out brandishing a knife”
Seems to me that is a clear misuse of the term. To brandish one would have to be physically holding a weapon in a manner that is threatening, not merely openly carrying it.
Of course it was a clear misuse of the term. It was deliberate harassment with the cooperation of local judges.
Well anyone defending such a ludicrous charge doesn’t need a lawyer, their need an English teacher, or better yet a Catholic school nun.
You should unmute Behar, or subscribe to his newsletter.
You don’t need to convict for harassment to work. The process is the punishment, remember.
There are plenty of people claiming the mere presence of a {male,white,conservative,take your pick} person {on campus,on the street,in a store, as an employee,using twitter,take your pick} is a threat to their health and safety, literally violence. The Babylon Bee has been having a field day with AOC’s claims of Ted Cruz wanting to murder her, or how close she was to being murdered Jan 6th by the unarmed lethal insurrectionists.
These are events that I believe happened in exactly the way Conspiracy Theory Brett claims they did. Well, to be fair, he does not actually say that they “did” happen; he says that they “would have” happened.
Somehow I feel comfortable betting my kids’ college funds on Brett coming up with maybe one unverifiable anecdote in support of this claim.
you lost, cope and seethe
Still going on.
Never personally happened to me, but I’m accurately describing the motivation for concealed carry reform in Michigan.
This was true twenty years ago, before Michigan became a shall-issue state. Thereafter, people (not all, of course) got much more used to the idea of law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I’ve talked to a few cops about the issue, and they all have said, in essence, “There’s no law against it, so if they are not doing something wrong, we don’t approach them.” I think that many cops genuinely didn’t know that open carry was perfectly legal (I know; their training leaves something to be desired). It’s pretty well-known now, although it surprises me how many people (non-LEO) still think it is illegal. Of course, it is the ignorance of the law that contributes to the anxiety that some people experience when they see someone openly carrying, since their ignorance leads them to think the person is armed AND a criminal.
As for “brandishing,” it’s true that the law was subject to arbitrary enforcement, because brandishing was illegal but left undefined in the law. Only in 2015 was the term defined in the law as “point, wave about, or display [a firearm] in a threatening manner with the intent to induce fear in another person.” That’s a pretty good definition, as it avoids labeling as brandishing the nonthreatening display of a gun that inadvertently caused fear in a hypersensitive individual.
As for the open- vs. concealed-carry issue in Michigan, I have no doubt at all that if forced to choose between the two now-legal modes of carry, concealed carry would be preserved. About three-quarters of a million people in Michigan have carry permits and, outside rural areas, open carry is relatively uncommon (and most of the people who open carry probably have permits anyway). Even a person who wants just to open carry in Michigan should get a carry permit because: 1) there is no such thing as “open carry” in a vehicle in Michigan; that gun that you legally carried on your hip becomes a concealed weapon the instant it enters the passenger compartment of a vehicle; and 2) you don’t have to worry that you thoughtlessly tossed a jacket over your gun thereby concealing it.
Also being a resident of Michigan as well as a CPL licensee, I corroborate the accuracy of KRB’s recitation.
Indiana is an open carry state. About 10 years ago we had a number of people test this throughout the state. They were not organized, just a group of like-minded people who wanted to open carry and see what would happen. It was about a rough two years as police all across the state largely overreacted. It took about that amount of time to educate the police departments about the legality of it, and to just stop overreacting. Nowadays it’s pretty much wide open and not a hassle from anybody.
They should just start issuing some per curiam GVR in cases like Young v Hawaii. Tell the 9th they need to clean up their own mess.
“[e.] Restrictions on machineguns and other “dangerous and unusual” weapons—which probably means unusually dangerous weapons: Again, from the Kavanaugh/Roberts concurrence, quoting Heller and McDonald: “[T]he sorts of weapons protected were those in common use at the time. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.””
The problem here is that the nature of the weapons that are commonly owned in America at this time has been massively warped by all the laws that were adopted during a period when the Court was NOT upholding the 2nd amendment. For most of our history, civilian and military arms were one and the same; They only diverged following the adoption of the National Firearms Act, when for the first time the government set out to deny civilians ownership of the very weapons it issued its own soldiers.
As an analogy, suppose the Court in Brown had determined the constitutionality of segregation based on the prevalence of Jim Crow laws? And ignored that Jim Crow laws had only become common on account of the Court’s own refusal to enforce the 14th amendment?
Today’s pattern of gun ownership is similarly warped by the Court’s own malfeasance starting with Miller, until Heller.
The “in common use” portion would seem to finally put to rest the drive to ban or restrict the AR-15. It’s the single most popular semiauto long rifle in America. I really wish they’d have included the term “as commonly configured” in there as as to prevent attempted bans on specific components.
Seems to me, the problem is if we’re going to say the threshold for regulating arms is based on how a majority of states and territories handled the matter back before electricity was invented, then the weapons in common use provision should be similarly limited. I’ve loaded and fired a muzzle-loaded rifle before. No one is going to manage a mass murder with a muzzle-loader.
Then you’d better toss your phone and computer, and definitely cease posting on places like this, since none of that existed at the time the 1st was written.
Yes, yes, and the internet can go back to manually operated single sheet flat bed printing presses. Yes, yes, we’ve heard that bleat before.
And P.S., electricity has always existed, it was never invented. If you want to be literal, you had better be literal yourself.
Both breech-loading and semi-automatic rifles existed before the Revolutionary War.
In fact, the Brits used both against the American rebels during that war.
Someone could *very* easily have committed mass murder with the weapons allowed. For instance, a large merchant vessel armed with multiple cannon could have shelled almost any port city in the early US and done dreadful damage. As an example, there was the Rossie, which carried 1 9 pounder long cannon and 11 12 pounder carronades, which as a privateer in the War of 1812 captured over a dozen British ships and destroyed others.
There was literally no limitation on what weapons were allowed. Wanted to buy a 24 pounder long cannon? Nothing to stop you. If you wanted to buy *100* of them, there was no law against it. You could build a ship that was bigger and had more firepower than anything in the US Navy at the time and it would be perfectly legal.
The weapons commonly used for mass murder in the 19th century were axes, hatchets, hammers, arson, and poison. I have been gathering mass murder incidents since 1657. 1600+ even today there are other weapons used.
The common usage question has always been interesting to me.
If a new arms technology is developed and is immediately banned or highly regulated to the point that it can not become common how could that arm satisfy the “common” test?
This is essentially what happened with automatic firearms in America (became commercially available in the early 20th century; so heavily regulated as to limit their adoption by the public by 1934). It has been pointed out that they are not banned, only highly regulated. But they are regulated to the point where the expense of owning one is far beyond the reach of the average person.
Also, what is the meaning of common? Modern sporting rifles would seem to be common as millions are owned by civilians today. Are fully automatic firearms also common since they are not completely banned and there are some number owned by the public? Would modern sporting rifles be considered common if they were banned or so highly regulated from their introduction that their numbers in the market had been limited?
The other piece is that it can take time for arms to be accepted as common. The AR platform was made available to the public in the 1960’s, but it can be argued that they didn’t become “common” until sometime in the last 20 years? How can commonality be judged when adoption of a new arms technology isn’t instant?
Can commonality be argued based on the militia portion of the second amendment? If at least part of the 2nd amendment is to protect the right of individuals to posses arms suitable for use when called to militia service can the standard issue arms of the average military service member be looked to as the common standard?
Just some of the unanswered questions that roll around in my head when I read Heller and McDonald, and now Bruen.
Automatic weapons only became expensive after civilian production was prohibited in 1986.
The $200 tax was a substantial cost, even in 1986. Not as much as in 1934, but I hear your point.
Heller answered this question (incorrectly, IMO):
If at least part of the 2nd amendment is to protect the right of individuals to posses arms suitable for use when called to militia service can the standard issue arms of the average military service member be looked to as the common standard?
Heller says no.
I’ve said it before: Stevens wanted to kill the 2nd amendment, Scalia was content to neuter it. And to that end deliberately misrepresented Miller, pretended he was upholding it while actually overturning it.
Heller was wrong about that. Later research (linked above) showed that “bear arms” is like “soldier”: essentially military in character. Sure there are some uses that are non-military, but they’re always called out by the context or idiom. So like: the spined soldier bug, toy soldiers, or foot soldiers for justice. But “soldier” standing alone is undeniably militaristic. “Bear arms” is the same way, or at least it was at the time.
Especially when you consider that the context is set by the prefatory clause to be militia-related, given what we know now, “bear arms” can only be read militarily.
If you’re being an honest originalist, that is. If you’re a living constitutionalist, go ahead and make it mean whatever you want it to mean.
The above reply went to the wrong place.
YOU are in the wrong place with your attempts at reiterating propaganda that has been shown to be bullshit on more than one occasion.
“how could that arm satisfy the ‘common’ test?”
The test should read “in common use by the aggressors a citizen would be expected to contend.” If they have them, we have a right to them.
Miller held that there was no evidence presented that a short-barreled shotgun had any military use. We know it did, of course, but the evidence want presented and Miller was dead so his lawyer didn’t even show up to the Supreme Court hearing.
According to Miller’s test, machine guns would be protected.
I agree that Heller’s common use test is warped by the effective ban on machine guns.
According to this source Miller was killed shortly after oral arguments at the Supreme Court but before the decision came down.
That source also indicates that the reason Miller’s lawyer didn’t submit a brief or appear before the Supreme Court on behalf of Miller was because the lawyer was working on the case pro bono and was unable to secure funds from Miller to travel and appear before the court.
I’d also point out that private ownership of cannon was common at the founding. (Not that lots of people owned cannon, but that most cannon which were in the US were privately owned). Shouldn’t that mean cannon and their modern analogs should be covered by the 2A?
“Shouldn’t that mean cannon and their modern analogs should be covered by the 2A?”
Strictly speaking, no. The fact that the government refrained from doing something is not in and of itself evidence that the government lacked the power to do it.
Now there might be arguments that cannons ought to be covered, but that isn’t it.
I take a slightly different view. The right described in 2A is the right to keep and bear arms. In context, bear roughly means carry. One could argue from the text that if you can’t pick it up and carry it, 2A doesn’t cover it.
My M224 is safe, then. Whew!
Turns out, in context, “bear” roughly means “furnish and maintain at the ready for use in military situations.”
https://blog.harvardlawreview.org/corpus-linguistics-and-the-second-amendment/
This all came to light post-Heller. Honest originalists (of which, of course, there are none) would no longer support the self-defense-oriented reading that Scalia imposed 15 years ago after discovering it in a penumbra.
Turns out it doesn’t JUST mean that, which was in fact a point in Heller.
Heller was wrong about that. Later research (linked above) showed that “bear arms” is like “soldier”: essentially military in character. Sure there are some uses that are non-military, but they’re always called out by the context or idiom. So like: the spined soldier bug, toy soldiers, or foot soldiers for justice. But “soldier” standing alone is undeniably militaristic. “Bear arms” is the same way, or at least it was at the time.
Especially when you consider that the context is set by the prefatory clause to be militia-related, given what we know now, “bear arms” can only be read militarily.
If you’re being an honest originalist, that is. If you’re a living constitutionalist, go ahead and make it mean whatever you want it to mean.
No it doesn’t mean just that.
An honest originalist knows it means both things. Stop lying.
“dangerous and unusual weapons”
We can say that there’s not much unusual about the number of M4 carbines—-14.5″ barrels, 3-round burst, standard capacity magazines—in the possession of military, police departments, sheriffs’ departments, and security contractors.
What would make them unusual is who owns them. Then we go back to Miller and Tench Coxe.
Too bad the Court isn’t going to touch the machine gun bit, despite the incredibly shaky ground the NFA and following legislation stands on (Miller).
Keep in mind, machine guns are not banned.
I think they will say that machine guns cannot be banned, but they do need to be licensed. I think that this puts the Hughes amendment (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/hughes-amendment/) in play, not the overall NFA.
Except that the NFA requires discretionary permission from local law enforcement. Licensing is great if it’s not a pretextual ban.
That is not true. NFA requires notification of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer, not permission.
Many states ban NFA items altogether.
No. Lawyers make a living getting judges to order writs of mandamus by CLEOs agreeing that possession is lawful under state law.
I don’t think that’s true anymore. During Obama’s (second?) term, a compromise regulation went into effect – no more LEO approval, but trusts required background checks for all trustees at time of purchase. Correct me if wrong, but I do know the last part is in effect from personal experience. I’m pretty sure they eliminated the LEO approval to get there.
That would be fine with me.
Allowing them but ending the FOPA ban would be a good first step.
Let me get this straight:
(1) All analogous regulations are frozen in time at sometime in 18th or 19th century; but
(2) “Arms” is a living, breating term
Don’t get me wrong, I think a lot of gun regulations are pretextual, but it also strikes me as wrong that states can’t adapt to the changing nature of “arms.” You did not have things like the ability to fire rapidly without reloading or have easily concealed arms at the time of the framing.
“easily concealed arms at the time of the framing”
Pistols existed.
(1) All analogous regulations are frozen in time at sometime in 18th or 19th century; but
What part of “the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” do you not understand?
Yes, the Constitution explicitly “freezes” the ability to do more “gun regulation” than was done when that Amendment was passed
(2) “Arms” is a living, breating term
Is “search” a “living, breathing term”? Or can the cops put a GPS tracker on your car without a warrant, because they didn’t exist in 1789?
What part of the conditional phrase A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, … do you not understand?
What part of English grammar do you not understand, that you think it makes any difference?
According to the militia clause AR -15s should be protected because the contribute to a soldiers mastery of an M-16/M-4 and therefore to the benefit of the militia.
Shawn – please stop. This IS a law blog, and anyone here with a working brain can tell you that that phrase certainly wasn’t meant as you’re trying to define it now.
More than that, the SCOTUS already ruled that the 2nd amendment protects an individual right. The question has been settled as a matter of constitutionality.
You might as well argue that Brown v. Board of Education got the constitution wrong, and “separate but equal” is still the rational conclusion. Although, sadly, there are a bunch of wokesters pushing equity that might actually agree.
Nothing is settled as a matter of constitutionality.
Settled law gets changed to make a new settled law.
US v Miller in 1939 held that the prefatory clause was not conditional, but was justifying the federal interest of making sure the unorganized militia can supply their own guns to protect the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
I’m guessing you don’t actually understand what ‘regulated’ means in that sentence, since it meant something different to the founders than it does today.
And is irrelevant anyway, because it’s the militia that’s well regulated, while it’s the People who have the right.
Scalia would probably have answered thus: The Fourth Amendment includes the adjective “unreasonable” before the word “searches,” and reasonableness depends on place and circumstances -and thus can change over time. Contrast this with a right like confrontation, which has no qualifier and is thus more of an absolute right. Scalia would generally agree that “search” is a word whose meaning changes over time, in a constitutional sense. He would probably have contrasted that with rights like confrontation, and the right to bear arms, that are not as mutable.
This court has thrown down the gauntlet to protect gun rights, but I seriously doubt they will do so for less favored amendments, like confrontation
I’m not sure that Scalia would say that the word “search” has changed in meaning over time as much as he would say what is “unreasonable” may change over time.
You did not have things like the ability to fire rapidly without reloading
You didn’t have the ability to cheaply post things on the internet that let you quickly communicate with millions of people.
Does that mean the 1st Amendment doesn’t apply to the internet, and the next GOP Administration can simply shut down any internet company it doesn’t like?
America at the Founding had privately owned cannon that could shoot grapeshot. Those cannon could kill a lot more people than an M16 can
> Does that mean the 1st Amendment doesn’t apply to the internet?
Radio, television, cinema…
Yup. That’s Scalia’s jurisprudence.
Re arms technology evolving over time, consider that, at the time of the adoption of the bill of rights, private citizens generally owned weapons substantially comparable to that carried by the ordinary infantryman. Given the desire to have citizens who can meaningfully participate in a militia, perhaps people now should have readily available weapons comparable to what an ordinary infantryman now carries,
“private citizens generally owned weapons substantially comparable to that carried by the ordinary infantryman”
and even superior to them.
“You did not have things like the ability to fire rapidly without reloading or have easily concealed arms at the time of the framing.”
Both pistols and organ guns/volley guns existed and were perfectly legal. Swordsticks/cane swords were quite popular with the well to do.
No. Lawyers make a living getting judges to order writs of mandamus by CLEOs agreeing that possession is lawful under state law.
Yep, this isn’t that hard to grasp actually. Think about “speech.” Speech meant one thing in the 1800’s and it’s grown to mean additional things now with the advent of the Internet.
The way speech can be restricted, however, is unchanged.
This is a new one to me, the idea that 21 used to be the age of majority. History shows that far more people used to leave home and start work before 18 than happens now at 21. But IAMAH or even ALH, and am interested in learning more.
IMHO if a person is not old enough to own a firearm, they are not old enough to vote, sign contracts, or join the military (not because they are not old enough to serve – we have factual proof 18 year old’s can serve but because an 18 year old isn’t old enough to commit to a contract, and military service is a contract).
If they look at tradition, it won’t be 21. The traditional age to learn to shoot and to go hunting is younger than 14 — often 10 or even before.
Same for defending the house — the kid who learned to shoot at 11 might be expected to shoot intruders. (Or might shoot intruders without regard to expectations.)
At 18, a typical rural kid had owned a gun for a few years already.
We’ll, I think we’re talking about the commercial transaction, right? Nothing would prevent a 14-yo from using/possessing, but the purchase would have to be done by an adult. Maybe the unattended possession would vary by state.
But that doesn’t make any sense for a 19-year-old. A typical 19-year-old lives independently of parents. History and tradition strongly argue for this to be a right starting at age 18 or younger.
Some states in 1791 required 16-year-olds to own guns as part of militia duty.
If the left thinks 18 is too young for a gun what about voting, abortions, and driving a deadly vehicle on public roads?
Bruen is overruling Heller, which allowed for restrictions such as prohibitions on concealed carry and requirements for (and documentation of) sale and purchase. Neither restriction is historical.
I think you’re confused. Such restrictions were not challenged in Heller, so they weren’t so much “upheld” as “beside the point”.
Brett Bellmore
June.23.2022 at 4:18 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
“I think you’re confused. Such restrictions were not challenged in Heller, so they weren’t so much “upheld” as “beside the point”.”
Good point –
Similar to the claims that Scalia did not address the collective right – since the issue before the court in Heller was only the individual right, there was no need to address whether there was a collective right.
These were mentioned in Scalia’s discussion of how the right is not unlimited. It was part of his holding. Thomas is applying a different analysis, in fact (as usual) he seems to disregard even friendly precedent.
” It was part of his holding”
It was dicta because it was not necessary to the decision.
Can you point me more specifically to the language you’re referring to?
“ Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
Well, as you can see, while concealed carry restrictions were mentioned as dicta, the relevant holding was limited to “longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.” Doubtless because by the time of Heller, concealed carry had become common.
If the topic had come up, I expect Scalia would have ruled that you could ban concealed carry, but only if you permitted open carry. But it didn’t come up.
Paul Clement won the case but his Big Law firm made him leave because they won’t handle 2A cases anymore.
Let’s hear the John Adams and the Boston Massacre arguments why this is wrong.
Law firms make judgments along that line routinely and have been doing so for many decades.
People who were able to get jobs at strong firms should know this; others might not.
Yes. Win a major case at the Court. Fired. How often
Never….until now, I guess.
They are claiming they don’t want to litigate “controversial issues.” But I’m sure they’d have no issue with one of their litigators going to the ends of the earth to ensure that a man has a right off his schlong, at taxpayer expense, and use the women’s bathroom.
Strict scrutiny
Restrictions on machineguns and other “dangerous and unusual” weapons—which probably means unusually dangerous weapons: Again, from the Kavanaugh/Roberts concurrence, quoting Heller and McDonald: “[T]he sorts of weapons protected were those in common use at the time. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.”
That can apply to WMD. It doesn’t apply to machine guns.
1: The decision refers in multiple places to laws that banned “pocket pistols”, but allowed “military pistols” because they were protected by the right to keep and bear arms
2: There were cannons in private hands up until at least the 1830s. A cannon firing grapeshot is easily going to do as much damage as an M16, or even a Ma Deuce.
3: The gatling gun was invented in 1861. So unless you can find laws banning the private ownership of such guns before the 1880s, you’re going to be very hard pressed to argue bans on such are part of your national history
I’m not sure 3 would apply to machine guns. A Gatling gun is not a machine gun as defined by the NFA.
True. Probably means the trigger crank ban is gone.
Naw, see the bump stock ban for an example.
Well a Gatling Gun is specifically actuated by a crank. I’m not aware of anything bump operated from that era.
I meant it as a reference to legal and bureaucratic quibblery.
” The decision refers in multiple places to laws that banned “pocket pistols”, but allowed “military pistols” because they were protected by the right to keep and bear arms”
This makes no sense. How is a “pocket pistol” not also protected by the right to keep and bear arms? What about the “military pistols” changes the calculus here?
Answer: Because the 2nd Amendment is about maintaining a militia to secure the state (aka: a military) and not about personal self-defense. Otherwise, a pocket pistol is just as good at self-defense as a military style one.
I think this goes back to Miller. A pocket pistol is not in “common military usage” which Miller says is specifically protected.
“In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.”
If we all have to carry 1911 .45’s I doubt that’s going to make Shawn or NY happy.
The current US Military issue sidearm is a 9mm Sig Sauer so you have choices.
That was a law passed in several Southern states as a way to disarm Blacks and poor Whites because a 1858 Remington or 1860 Colt was considerably more expensive than a single shot pistol.
Another practical concern, not about regulation, but about more guns being carried in public areas (even in densely populated areas), is the extent to which police can use explanations like “he had a gun” or “I thought he was going for a gun” to say that the individual officer had a fear for his life, and had to blow the person away. And we already know that there is rarely any criminal or civil recourse for the blown away person (or his surviving family members).
I don’t see why that’s a concern, when they can use that excuse even when no gun was present.
True enough. But aren’t the police more likely to have a scratchier trigger finger if they have a belief that the odds of any person out in the public of being armed (even lawfully) is higher? Won’t the police generally have a heightened level of concern about guns being present during traffic stops and while breaking up bar fights? Perhaps police would even be justifiably concerned that their chances of getting shot while going about their beat is considerably if more of the people out in public are armed?
“But aren’t the police more likely to have a scratchier trigger finger if they have a belief that the odds of any person out in the public of being armed (even lawfully) is higher?”
Well, let’s look at the evidence. Many states have “shall issue” permits and even “no permit required” regulations. I don’t see a great difference in the number of shooting by cops in those states and in the states with “may issue” regulations. Georgia passed Constitutional carry a couple of months ago and I haven’t noticed a great increase in the number of shootings by cops of law abiding citizens who were just exercising their rights.
If the stone cold gun is not in the cop’s back pocket, it is in the trunk, and will be on the ground when the supervisor shows up.
Given that carrying a gun outside the home is now a well-established constitutional right, sooner or later policy and training that equates “he had a gun” with the right of the police to shoot is going to be found to impermissibly burden that right.
Probably later.
State legislatures should enact reforms so we don’t have to wait 50 years
The concealed weapon laws of the early Republic were at least partly to take away this excuse. I thought he was drawing a concealed weapon. This became a problem because of dueling and associated honor violence. My book Concealed Weapon Laws of the Early Republic explains this.
As a practical matter – if many businesses restricted both open and concealed carry that would make it difficult to actually regularly carry a gun in public. Could states “criminalize” carrying a gun when prohibited by a business…..?
My understanding has been that it merely becomes trespassing if you don’t leave when asked to.
But would a work around be for a state to pass a law that say made it a mandatory 6 month prison term? That could worry a law abiding citizen enough that they might choose not to carry. If a criminal carried the state could just decline to prosecute – plead it out to trespassing
IANAL but I see now what you meant. My IANAL opinion is that such a law should not pass muster, but it would be expensive to fight and not guaranteed to win, depending on the courts involved.
How would a business know if someone is carrying concealed?
We will see quick adoption of technologies like magnetic scanners and thermal imagers that will detect items that resemble concealed firearms on patrons.
They will be about as reliable as the facial cameras that were installed to detect fever in hardware store employees.
Go ask a Blockbuster manager how denying constitutional rights works out.
We will see more states attempting to pass laws that forbid businesses from banning gun-carrying on their premises. Because freedom.
Can you enforce a racially restrictive CC&R through the courts? No. So why allow police to enforce such laws?
If we’re going full property rights for businesses, let’s do it completely, not just in regards to burdening one particular right.
In case his post is too cryptic for some, this is Brett advocating for businesses being allowed to discriminate based on race, gender, religion (unless it’s a ban on Christians, natch), sexual preference, etcetera.
I have a couple of thoughts:
Felons prohibited “as a class.” There are vastly more crimes classified as “felonies” than in the founder’s era. For example, in my state writing a bad check for $25 dollars can make you a felon. Does this warrant permanently losing a constitutional right, like the right to possess arms? As Barrett has pointed out, the expansion of the classification ‘felon’ might require the government to begin making distinctions between “violent” or “dangerous” felons, and other felons — meaning that simply being a felon should not disqualify you from possessing arms. After all, the ability of a legislature to define “felonies” is virtually (actually?) unchecked. Could a legislature make speeding or parking offenses a “felony” (while avoiding actual imposition of other felony penalties) and thereby strip vast numbers of their right to possess arms?
I’ve tried to raise this (and other) firearm issues in state court (mainly in an effort to clarify state constitutional standards), but the courts have acted like I was throwing a dead skunk their way and have avoided decisions on merits. Perhaps some day…
If you are not incarcerated, the constitution should protect your natural rights.
I’m not sure your first sentence is true, and your second isn’t a very good illustration. Under the Crimes Act of 1790, for instance, forgery wasn’t just a felony: the only authorized penalty was death.
Betcha not that many people committed forgery back then, amirite or amirite?
There wasn’t much to forge back then, and all of it was valuable. I don’t think bank checks even existed, and maybe not even bank accounts as we know them.
Checks are not the only thing to be forged. Weren’t even ‘back then.’ How about wills, titles, bills of sale?
Most felonies in 1791 were capital. I agree too many actions have been felonized.
I do wish the Court would revisit United States v. Castleman; They ruled as they did at a time when gun ownership was being treated as a privilege, the ruling sits badly with it being treated as a right.
And the ex post facto application was an outrage even if you pretended gun ownership wasn’t a right.
“The respondent, James Alvin Castleman, pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor offense of having “intentionally or knowingly cause[d] bodily injury to” the mother of his child.
“The question before us is whether this conviction qualifies as “a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.” We hold that it does.”
So the Castleman case did not address the Constitutionality of NFA statute 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9).
All it said was whether one type of misdemeanor could be legally the same as a qualifying misdemeanor under the Act.
With Bruen, the Constitutionality of whether domestic violence misdemeanors can disqualify a citizen’s right to bear arms.
Go back in time to when the Supreme Court released the gay marriage decision, which essentially forced that upon about 20 states overnight. The Left seems really like this kind of judicial intervention and would roundly denounce the thought of trying to not comply with the court’s decision as going against the rule of law.
Fast forward about 7 years and it is the opposite because they don’t like your right to self -defense. This goes against their political agenda so they just flipped the script and now it is dangerous, etc. etc.
These people have absolutely no principles or morals. That is why leftists are dangerous. Most are also mentally ill. But the lack of any type of moral compass is what makes them something you don’t want to be around.
And you really don’t see how this lack of principles applies in the other direction but in the identical fashion. Whadda maroon.
I support gay marriage and national reciprocity. We’re the only ones with principles 🙂
People like Court decisions that they agree with, don’t like ones they don’t agree with. Activists council nullification.
Not really a revelation of cynicism going on here. Not really any partisan asymmetry either.
But you sure do seem to be working yourself up on how inhuman, dangerous, and bad your political opposition is! Such thinking always ends in good decisions.
Your comment shows you do what you accuse him of doing.
You think I’m endorsing nullification?
Do you not see how disgusting it is for a man to finish in another man’s colon?
Well the courts made such a mess of gay marriage they probably felt an obligation to clean it up, a misplaced obligation to be sure, but it was definitely a mess.
Before MA and Hawaii’s courts started meddling in gay marriage not a single state had a constitutional provision against gay marriage. It wasn’t long before 32 states enacted provisions to ban it putting it beyond the reach of ordinary legislation or initiatives to evolve.
Score 1 for the “Bitter Klingers” (and my Favorite Surpreme, Clarence “Frogman” Thomas)
Note: Not a lawyer, but am familiar with firearms.
I would be curious to see a real argument that the allowance for restricting dangerous and unusual weapons allows restriction of short barreled rifles, submachineguns, or automatic rifles. While one can certainly draw a mechanical distinction between e.g. a fully automatic Uzi and a semiautomatic Uzi, I don’t think one could find a basis for banning the former under a history and tradition based test. Based on NYSRP I think one would need to show a history of firearm restriction based on rate of fire. I know of none.
One might argue that *sequential* rate of fire wasn’t really a thing until the advent of the metallic cartridge and try to argue based on some sort of historical analog, but there is a good analog to guns which sequentially fire more than one projectile per pull of the trigger and that is guns which simultaneously fire more than one projectile per pull of the trigger (i.e. shotguns and blunderbusses) both of which are quite old and neither of which ever saw significant regulation.
I don’t think one can make a case that regulation of machine guns is permissible under a history and tradition test.
I will note that I’m not necessarily arguing that a ban on something like a heavy machine gun would be impermissible as something like that might not fall under the category of arms as understood by the second amendment, but something like an MP-5 or M-16 most assuredly does fall under the classification of arms and something like an MP-5 is quite probably the best possible weapon for self defense within the home ever devised.
Probably the brightest line is area of effect. I can see restricting bombs, grenades, and mines pretty clearly…with full auto, you could make the argument they fall into the area effect category, and maybe that even applies to large caliber anti-tank weapons, cannons and the like, although that line between “kinetic” and “explosive” can be a tricky one.
I don’t see an MP5 as an area of effect weapon. An M2, sure. an M1919… maybe/probably. An MP5 is much more like a sequential fire shotgun in use than anything else. A shotgun firing 00 puts nine .33 caliber projectiles into a tight space at relatively short range. An MP5 on burst puts three .35 caliber projectiles into a tight space at relatively close range. It’s not an area effect weapon, it’s a compact, light weight, sequential shotgun.
The ban on short barreled rifles and shotguns seems like it will be hard to justify.
Which issue will mainstream historians of the mid-21st century identify as the leading precipitate of the enlargement of the Supreme Court of the United States during the 2020s?
___ abortion
___ guns
___ government dysfunction/gridlock
___ political issues/election results
___ election laws
___ bigotry (racism, misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia)
___ special privilege for religion
___ generational conflict/societal progress
___ environmental protection
___ health care
And you never learn . . . .
Harry Reid got rid of the judicial filibuster because he wanted to pack the DC circuit. That led to Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, ACB on SCOTUS. Thanks, Harry!
Get rid of the Senate filibuster so you can pack the court, and what do you think will happen the next time the GOP holds the White House and both houses of Congress (which looks like 2024)? Hint: not only will SCOTUS repacked, but a lot of things will be abolished if you only need a simple majority in each chamber.
Joe Manchin is no fool, and he realizes this.
Joe Manchin is not a fool.
He is an ethically sketchy tool of the coal industry who represents a state populated by uneducated, bigoted, obsolete, rural, parasitic hayseeds.
There may be ways to arrange improvement of the Supreme Court without abolishing the filibuster.
You indicated “enlargement” of the court in your original comment. Pray tell how that’s ever going to happen without 60 votes unless you nuke the filibuster.
Or maybe by “improvement” you mean severely restricting the jurisdiction of SCOTUS by statute. Hard to see how you do that without 60 votes or no filibuster, to say nothing of the potential constitutional issues. But if you somehow can, what do you expect the GOP to do when it regains power? Won’t they once again use your own playbook against you?
I trust that your most recent comment isn’t suggesting / endorsing something like the recent attempted assassination of Justice Kavanaugh. But if it is, again, you really never learn, do you?
Actually, it would be quite easy to do without nuking the filibuster, though the process would nuke inter-party relations. All you’d have to do is get it passed through the House, and then hold a snap vote in the Senate without warning. With only 51 members present, all Democrats, you could pass it handily even if a significant number of Democrats defected.
LOL.
How are you going to get 51 Democrats to do that though? You don’t even have 50 right now!
‘nuke inter-party relations’? ya think?
If you ever considered that you might live to see the beginning of the second civil war, that level of raw shenanigans would likely be the start of it.
We all know you’re a murderous minded bastard son of a bitch. It’s simply a wonder you feel you can be so open about it.
And I’m referring to that bastard Kirkland
Well, you forgot Leftist soft- (or not so soft-) totalitarianism, which is, of course, your kettle of fish, Ms. Kirkland. It’s good to see that you have taken time off from your grooming activities to rejoin the conversation.
Arthur, you’ve been beating that SCOTUS enlargement drum for a while now. You basically promised it last year (2021). What happened? 😛
Special privilege for religion? Really? Do tell…please. 🙂
IANAL and I don’t read every opinion but I did spend time reading this one. Am I missing something or is Alito’s concurrence an in your face be quiet? It didn’t seem to be very conciliatory towards the dissent, in fact it was you say this but how would it help prevent, time after time.
Interesting test will be the legality of the Hughes Amendment (1986 law which prohibited any additional machine guns being added to the BATFE “registry” of machine guns available to be owned by civilians with a NFA tax stamp).
Let’s look at the history as per Bruen:
(1) Cannons could be owned by civilians in 1791 (indeed, they still can be). That’s the closest historical analogue to MG’s (heck, they are probably more destructive).
(2) Machine guns could be manufactured and freely sold to / owned by civilians until 1934.
(3) Original draft of ’34 Act provided that civilian possession of MG’s and other Class III weapons (and handguns) would be prohibited. DoJ opined that that would be unconstitutional, and so they changed it to a $200 / NFA item tax (which was prohibitively expensive in 1934).
(4) Under U.S. v. Miller, court ruled sawed off shotguns could be regulated because they not be the kind of weapon a militia would commonly use. (The fact that SBS’s *were* used as trench guns in WWI was overlooked, and there are all sorts of procedural issues with Miller.) A select fire M4 (which is the kind of MG most people would probably want) *is* the standard weapon issued to US soldiers and National Guardsmen for decades.
(5) Until 1986, it was still legal to manufacture and sell MG’s to civilians (federally and in most states) as long as everybody did the required paperwork and got the tax stamp in advance.
(6) It’s still legal for civilians to own pre-1986 registered MG’s as long as they have the tax stamp (and huge bank accounts — an NFA-legal M16 will run you over $40k . . . but a newly manufactured select-fire AR would only be about $1200 (that’s about what military / LE pays for them).
So, what’s the historical justification for prohibiting the controlled sale (i.e., as NFA Class III weapons) of newly manufactured MG’s to civilians (which is all the Hughes Amendment covers)? Doing so was legal much, much longer than it has been illegal, and there never has been any real showing of why the Hughes Amendment was justified in the first place (other than “guns are icky, and machine guns especially so”).
I’m not holding my breath that any court is going to nuke the Hughes Amendment anytime soon, but don’t be surprised if someone brings a test case in a friendly venue / circuit . . . .
Even if machine gun licensing is upheld, the ban on new civilian manufacturing will not survive. Even the authors of the National Firearms Act admitted the guns had to move in interstate commerce to be taxable.
You’re more optimistic than I am. The Court is NOT going to pursue the logic of this case everywhere it ought to go, the votes aren’t there. And I don’t think the votes are there to limit the interstate commerce clause to only things that have moved in interstate commerce, either.
This is not a terribly brave Court, when you come down to it.
I predict that blue cities/states will do what they always do — create as many obstacles as possible, count on creative judges, the length of litigation, and strategically mooting troublesome lawsuits to drag things out, and then deal with the next Supreme Court decision in another ten years.
They will try. But consider:
(1) Denials of preliminary injunctions are immediately appealable. And NYSR&PA, GOA, FPC, MSLF, and the other groups fighting these fights know how to fight preliminary injunction wars, including the emergency appellate shuffle.
(2) Under Bruen, the restrictions are *presumptively* unconstitutional. Burden will be on the state to show otherwise.
(3) SCOTUS has not been shy about using the shadow docket to rein in lower courts who thumb their noses at SCOTUS decisions.
Remember, both DC and Illinois similarly promised “resistance” the Heller and MacDonald, and proceeded to drag their feet. In the case of Illinois, the 7th Circuit essentially told them, “implement shall issue within 30 days, or Constitutional Carry applies.”
They chose the former.
To quote a prominent Democrat who was also unhappy about a decision: “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”
No. It will be like Berlin before the Wall. So many people will tire of cities filled with drug addicts on the streets, mass looting of stores that even some Democrats will say enough and move.
“(3) SCOTUS has not been shy about using the shadow docket to rein in lower courts who thumb their noses at SCOTUS decisions.”
Historically, they’ve been pretty shy about using to rein in lower courts who did it on the topic of gun control. I’d like to think that has changed, but will wait on evidence of it before getting my hopes up.
In the mean while, could we supplement the Justices’ government security somehow? The left knows exactly how to undo this majority, and one guy has already tried. More attempts will follow.
I predict the red states will continue to follow the customary course, too — the bigoted, superstitious, uneducated, parasitic, gun-fetishizing, science-denying, virus-flouting, stale-thinking path.
I will be so happy when the big split finally happens.
Me too. But then I want the “red half” to declare war on the blue half and annihilate them, with smallpox, nuclear weapons, or anything else.
Your prejudices know no limits. Like Sarcastro you seem to know none of your opponents exceed in caricature.
What happens to all the rulings by circuits that used 2 steps and intermediate scrutiny to deny 2nd amendment rights? A plethora of 9th Circuit en banc rulings come to mind.
Courts should evaluate gun rights based on the constitution.
It ain’t that hard.
Even people who don’t know what a woman is can do it.
The portion of the opinion EV mentions in his Fourth point is what stood out for me. While I was hoping the Scrutiny standard would be addressed – and Strict Scrutiny in particular – I was not optimistic. The majority certainly dispensed with this issue.
I wonder whether such an approach is workable and will be considered in other BoR provision challenges. Having limited experience in those areas I can’t really venture an assessment. However, from my cursory understanding of, for example, Free Speech issues (on which EV is an expert) it would seem that jettisoning of Scrutiny standards would be a radical departure.
Of interest is just how this ruling impacts the Good Professor’s oft stated belief that a complete ban on AR style rifles is so totally constitutional?
The opinion focused on history for determining state interests and sidestepped the level of scrutiny type analysis (rational basis, intermediate, exacting, strict) that it has used previously for other constitutional rights at least simce Korematsu. Is that just a one-off unique to 2nd Amendment analysis? Or does portend a sea change in the way state interests get analyzed more generally?
Not a historian on gun evolution, but I believe at the founding they didn’t have repeaters, or anything like semi-auto. Does that mean Roberts and Kavanaugh would be ok banning them under 5e?
Once we ban laser printers, broadcasting, cable, Internet and search warrant requirements for apartments, condos, and motor homes.
Since you are not familiar with the Girandoni Air Rifle it appears you were telling the truth about not being a historian on gun evolution.
Once again, the voice of the people is squelched by this Court.
44 states with shall issue concealed carry, 25 with ‘constitutional’ carry. All arrived at democratically. You have a rather exaggerated notion of how much ‘the voice of the people’ agrees with you, probably because the media agree with you, and present a distorted impression of public opinion.
You could prove me wrong by overturning this with an amendment, of course.
Thank you for the opportunity to review Wisconsin Statutes 941.237
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/941/iii/237
2A is pretty clear and concise. And we needed 135 pages? This will all be twisted into a form to be used to take away the right.
Hey, you found your comedy chops again!
Hopefully the Supremes will take some time and compile a guide for the next session clarifying when mid-19th century mores count as historical and traditional, and when they don’t. And maybe a chapter or two on what “Originalism” and “textualism” mean in the 21st century.
I don’t expect that the leftist states and jurisdictions will roll over. One point that goes unaddressed in this opinion is that those places don’t accept permits from other states, and they won’t give permits to non-residents. Is there anything in the decision that implies that non-residents have a right to “bear” in those states?
It is not the approach taken by either the majority or the dissent. If has no current constituency on the Court. But I continue to believe that the two clauses of the 2nd Amendment – a state’s right to a well-regulated mitia, and the people’s right to keep and bear arms – have to be read in harmony and balanced in a manner so that neither gets explained away as essentially meaningless surplusage. The majority opinion in Bruin reads the “well regulated militia” component completely out of the analysis, treating it as an essentially meaningless preamble. And the Heller dissent interprets the “right of the people” component as not referring to an individual right at all, something at odds with the use of the term everywhere it is used in the Constitution.
I continue to think that, as Miller helf, the individual right to keep and bear arms is connected to their potential for use in a well-regulated militia. That means I think militia regulations that go considerably further than Miller would be constitutional. For example, I think the state could standardize on a single kind of weapon and a single ammunition type ( or a small number) as its standard militia weapon, and permit individuals to keep and bear only that. And it could standardize on a single -shot gun if it wanted to. It can set a reasonable minimum age for militia membership (and hence a right to keep arms). It can limit militia membership to citizens (although it likely could not impose narrower limits). It could impose reasonable limits on the number of guns a person can possess, based on the number relevantcto militia use.
I don’t think that the state could do out-and-out gun control in the guise of militia regulations. It couldn’t, for example, make water guns its standard militia weapon. State gun laws would get judicially scrutinized for their connection to actual legitimate militia regulation.
But I nonetheless think that the 2nd Amendment confers on states a right not just to have a militia but to regulate their militia well. I do not think the 2nd Amendment individual right is a stand-alone self-defense right totally disconnected from any militia context. Rather, individual gun possession is (or I think should be under a proper constitutional analysis) intimately connected with the context of the use of arms, and the need for arms, in a well-regulated militia. Accordingly, I think states have the right to issue mitia regulations that limit the right to keep and bear arms, as long as they are genuinely connected to the legitimate regulation of the militia, and do not eviscerate the right to keep and bear arms completely.
Reading the militia and the state’s right to regulate it out of the 2nd Amendment analysis strikes me as being as much an act of atextual, ideologically driven judicial action as reading the individual right to keep and bear arms completely out of it.
Note: Miller involved a federal law. I think Miller was correct that federal regulation is limited to potential use in a potential well-regulated militia. But I think a state should be able to regulate based on actual use in its actual militia as actually regulated. This means that the enumerated state’s right conferred by the 2nd Amendment ought to give a state substantially more regulatory power over firearms than the Frderal Government possesses.
The militia clause was not a limiting factor to the right to bear arms by private citizens; it was a concurrent observation and justifying clause.
Because well regulated militias required armed citizens, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Indeed, volunteer soldiers were expected to bring their own arms to the militia.
“analogical reasoning under the Second Amendment is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check.”
Am I the only one who notices ‘straitjacket’ misspelled?
At least Alito (?) corrected that error in Dobbs. Or was it Kavanaugh?
Should I bring my glock to a deposition and ask for dismissal of the case? Is that a sensitive area? Would I be able claim mahhhh rightzzz at a disciplinary hearing?
“[T]he government must affirmatively prove that its firearms regulation is part of the historical tradition that delimits the outer bounds of the right to keep and bear arms.” NYSRPA v. Bruen.
My lawsuit challenging California’s bans on carrying loaded and unloaded rifles, shotguns, and handguns in public has already been argued before the 9th circuit. It is being held pending the disposition of the Young v. Hawaii handgun Open Carry cert petition (Mr. Young abandoned his concealed carry claim before the 9th circuit en banc panel).
Justice Thomas created a very high bar for gun laws. The State of California conceded in 2015 that we have a right to openly carry firearms, specifically handguns, beyond the curtilage of our home. The State could not point to any American law in effect in 1791 that prohibited the Open Carry of long guns or handguns or any subsequent laws within Justice Thomas’ historical timeframe in support of California’s Open Carry bans. As Judge Berzon, the presiding judge in my case, correctly pointed out during the oral argument in my appeal, California did not ban loaded Open Carry until the 1960s.
I expect an opinion in my appeal fairly soon.
This article seems well reasoned and fairly thorough, but I’d like to ask about this.
San Jose, CA has a new law that requires gun owners to obtain liability insurance (thus effectively imposing on all of them the costs caused by misusers of guns) and pay the city an annual registration fee. It seems to me this violates Bruen, but I expect to see both the state courts (where litigation over this is now pending), and the 9th Circuit, stall as long as possible and then uphold the law.
I hope SCOTUS not only will overturn it, but will do something to prevent this dishonest process from dragging on for years, just as New York’s obviously unconstitutional Sullivan Act managed to last more than a century before finally being overturned now.
I think they need to work on the wholesale disenfranchisement of from the 2nd Amendment for felons that did not commit a violent felony.
There are so many felonies out there that do not remotely involve violence, yet they are swept up by the same net as felons who committed murders or robberies or rape.
White collar crimes such as fraud and tax crimes, or bribery, perjury, improper filling of govt forms, prostitution, gambling, drug crimes — the list goes on.
Such felonies have nothing to do with firearms, or prior misuse, and after a person serves their sentence, 2nd Amendment rights should be restored.