The Volokh Conspiracy
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Exclusion of Religious Schooling from Generally Available School Choice Programs Generally Unconstitutional,
except for the training of the clergy, holds the Supreme Court.
Since Zelman v. Simmons-Harris (2002), the Supreme Court has made clear that school choice programs, which financially support parents' sending children to private schools, may include religious schools, without violating the Establishment Clause—just as university scholarship programs (such as the GI Bill and others) may be used at religious institutions alongside secular institutions without violating the Establishment Clause. But must they include religious schools on basically the same terms as secular schools, in order to comply with the Free Exercise Clause?
In today's decision in Carson v. Makin, the Supreme Court said yes, by a 6-3 vote (following two earlier cases, Trinity Lutheran Church v. Comer and Espinoza v. Montana Dep't of Revenue, that had pointed in this direction, and distinguishing another earlier case, Locke v. Davey, that pointed in the opposite direction). The government need not have school choice programs, of course; it is free to just fund education at government-run public schools. But if it decides to support private education as well, it must do so without discriminating against religious schools.
Here are excerpts from Chief Justice Roberts' majority opinion, joined by Justices Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett:
[A.] Maine has enacted a program of tuition assistance for parents who live in school districts that do not operate a secondary school of their own. Under the program, parents designate the secondary school they would like their child to attend—public or private—and the school district transmits payments to that school to help defray the costs of tuition. Most private schools are eligible to receive the payments, so long as they are "nonsectarian." {The Department has stated that, in administering this requirement, it "considers a sectarian school to be one that is associated with a particular faith or belief system and which, in addition to teaching academic subjects, promotes the faith or belief system with which it is associated and/or presents the material taught through the lens of this faith."} The question presented is whether this restriction violates the Free Exercise Clause ….
[B.] The Free Exercise Clause … protects against "indirect coercion or penalties on the free exercise of religion, not just outright prohibitions." In particular, we have repeatedly held that a State violates the Free Exercise Clause when it excludes religious observers from otherwise available public benefits….
We have recently applied these principles in the context of two state efforts to withhold otherwise available public benefits from religious organizations. In Trinity Lutheran Church of Columbia, Inc. v. Comer, we considered a Missouri program that offered grants to qualifying nonprofit organizations that installed cushioning playground surfaces made from recycled rubber tires. The Missouri Department of Natural Resources maintained an express policy of denying such grants to any applicant owned or controlled by a church, sect, or other religious entity…. [We held] that the Free Exercise Clause did not permit Missouri to "expressly discriminate[] against otherwise eligible recipients by disqualifying them from a public benefit solely because of their religious character." While it was true that Trinity Lutheran remained "free to continue operating as a church," it could enjoy that freedom only "at the cost of automatic and absolute exclusion from the benefits of a public program for which the Center [was] otherwise fully qualified." …
[I]n Espinoza v. Montana Dep't of Revenue (2020), we reached the same conclusion as to a Montana program that provided tax credits to donors who sponsored scholarships for private school tuition…. "A State need not subsidize private education," we concluded, "[b]ut once a State decides to do so, it cannot disqualify some private schools solely because they are religious." …
The "unremarkable" principles applied in Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza suffice to resolve this case. Maine offers its citizens a benefit: tuition assistance payments for any family whose school district does not provide a public secondary school…. By "condition[ing] the availability of benefits" [on a school's nonreligious character], Maine's tuition assistance program—like the program in Trinity Lutheran—"effectively penalizes the free exercise" of religion. {[A] "State need not subsidize private education. But once a State decides to do so, it cannot disqualify some private schools solely because they are religious."} …
[C.] A law that [discriminates based on religion, we held in Espinoza, must be subjected to "the strictest scrutiny." To satisfy strict scrutiny, government action "must advance 'interests of the highest order' and must be narrowly tailored in pursuit of those interests." "A law that targets religious conduct for distinctive treatment … will survive strict scrutiny only in rare cases." …
This is not one of them…. [A] neutral benefit program in which public funds flow to religious organizations through the independent choices of private benefit recipients does not offend the Establishment Clause. Zelman v. Simmons-Harris (2002). Maine's decision to continue excluding religious schools from its tuition assistance program after Zelman thus promotes stricter separation of church and state than the Federal Constitution requires. But as we explained in both Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza, such an "interest in separating church and state 'more fiercely' than the Federal Constitution … 'cannot qualify as compelling' in the face of the infringement of free exercise." See also Widmar v. Vincent (1981) ("[T]he state interest … in achieving greater separation of church and State than is already ensured under the Establishment Clause … is limited by the Free Exercise Clause.").
Justice Breyer stresses the importance of "government neutrality" when it comes to religious matters, but there is nothing neutral about Maine's program. The State pays tuition for certain students at private schools—so long as the schools are not religious. That is discrimination against religion. A State's antiestablishment interest does not justify enactments that exclude some members of the community from an otherwise generally available public benefit because of their religious exercise….
[D.] The First Circuit held that the "nonsectarian" requirement was constitutional because the benefit was properly viewed not as tuition assistance payments to be used at approved private schools, but instead as funding for the "rough equivalent of the public school education that Maine may permissibly require to be secular." As Maine puts it, "[t]he public benefit Maine is offering is a free public education."
To start with, the statute does not say anything like that. It says that [a school district] without a secondary school of its own "shall pay the tuition … at the public school or the approved private school of the parent's choice at which the student is accepted." The benefit is tuition at a public or private school, selected by the parent, with no suggestion that the "private school" must somehow provide a "public" education.
This reading of the statute is confirmed by the program's operation. The differences between private schools eligible to receive tuition assistance under Maine's program and a Maine public school are numerous and important. To start with the most obvious, private schools are different by definition because they do not have to accept all students…. Second, the free public education that Maine insists it is providing through the tuition assistance program is often not free. That "assistance" is available at private schools that charge several times the maximum benefit that Maine is willing to provide.
Moreover, the curriculum taught at participating private schools need not even resemble that taught in the Maine public schools…. Participating schools need not hire state-certified teachers. And the schools can be single-sex….
[E.] The Court of Appeals also attempted to distinguish this case from Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza on the ground that the funding restrictions in those cases were "solely status-based religious discrimination," while the challenged provision here "imposes a use-based restriction." Justice Breyer makes the same argument.
Maine and the dissents invoke Locke v. Davey (2004), in support of the argument that the State may preclude parents from designating a religious school to receive tuition assistance payments. In that case, Washington had established a scholarship fund to assist academically gifted students with postsecondary education expenses. But the program excluded one particular use of the scholarship funds: the "essentially religious endeavor" of pursuing a degree designed to "train[] a minister to lead a congregation." We upheld that restriction against a free exercise challenge, reasoning that the State had "merely chosen not to fund a distinct category of instruction."
Our opinions in Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza, however, have already explained why Locke can be of no help to Maine here. Both precedents emphasized, as did Locke itself, that the funding in Locke was intended to be used "to prepare for the ministry." Funds could be and were used for theology courses; only pursuing a "vocational religious" degree was excluded.
Locke's reasoning expressly turned on what it identified as the "historic and substantial state interest" against using "taxpayer funds to support church leaders." But as we explained at length in Espinoza, "it is clear that there is no 'historic and substantial' tradition against aiding [private religious] schools comparable to the tradition against state-supported clergy invoked by Locke." Locke cannot be read beyond its narrow focus on vocational religious degrees to generally authorize the State to exclude religious persons from the enjoyment of public benefits on the basis of their anticipated religious use of the benefits….
Justice Breyer, joined by Justices Kagan, and, in relevant part, Justice Sotomayor, dissented:
[A.] The First Amendment begins by forbidding the government from "mak[ing] [any] law respecting an establishment of religion" {[which] seems to bar all government "sponsorship, financial support, [or] active involvement … in religious activity"}. It next forbids them to make any law "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The Court today pays almost no attention to the words in the first Clause while giving almost exclusive attention to the words in the second.
The majority also fails to recognize the "'play in the joints'" between the two Clauses. That "play" gives States some degree of legislative leeway. It sometimes allows a State to further antiestablishment interests by withholding aid from religious institutions without violating the Constitution's protections for the free exercise of religion…. In my view, Maine's nonsectarian requirement falls squarely within the scope of that constitutional leeway….
[B.] The state-funded program at issue in Trinity Lutheran provided payment for resurfacing school playgrounds to make them safer for children. Any Establishment Clause concerns arising from providing money to religious schools for the creation of safer play yards are readily distinguishable from those raised by providing money to religious schools through the program at issue here—a tuition program designed to ensure that all children receive their constitutionally guaranteed right to a free public education. After all, cities and States normally pay for police forces, fire protection, paved streets, municipal transport, and hosts of other services that benefit churches as well as secular organizations. But paying the salary of a religious teacher as part of a public school tuition program is a different matter.
In addition, schools were excluded from the playground resurfacing program at issue in Trinity Lutheran because of the mere fact that they were "owned or controlled by a church, sect, or other religious entity." Schools were thus disqualified from receiving playground funds "solely because of their religious character," not because of the "religious uses of [the] funding" they would receive. Here, by contrast, a school's "'affiliation or association with a church or religious institution … is not dispositive'" of its ability to receive tuition funds. Instead, Maine chooses not to fund only those schools that "'promot[e] the faith or belief system with which [the schools are] associated and/or presen[t] the [academic] material taught through the lens of this faith'"—i.e., schools that will use public money for religious purposes. Ibid. Maine thus excludes schools from its tuition program not because of the schools' religious character but because the schools will use the funds to teach and promote religious ideals….
[C.] [Unlike the religious schools involved in this case], public schools, including those in Maine, seek first and foremost to provide a primarily civic education. We have said that, in doing so, they comprise "a most vital civic institution for the preservation of a democratic system of government, and … the primary vehicle for transmitting the values on which our society rests." To play that role effectively, public schools are religiously neutral, neither disparaging nor promoting any one particular system of religious beliefs. We accordingly have, as explained above, consistently required public school education to be free from religious affiliation or indoctrination.
Maine legislators who endorsed the State's nonsectarian requirement recognized these differences between public and religious education. They did not want Maine taxpayers to finance, through a tuition program designed to ensure the provision of free public education, schools that would use state money for teaching religious practices.
Underlying these views is the belief that the Establishment Clause seeks government neutrality. And the legislators thought that government payment for this kind of religious education would be antithetical to the religiously neutral education that the Establishment Clause requires in public schools. Maine's nonsectarian requirement, they believed, furthered the State's antiestablishment interests in not promoting religion in its public school system; the requirement prevented public funds—funds allocated to ensure that all children receive their constitutional right to a free public education—from being given to schools that would use the funds to promote religion.
In the majority's view, the fact that private individuals, not Maine itself, choose to spend the State's money on religious education saves Maine's program from Establishment Clause condemnation. But that fact, as I have said, simply permits Maine to route funds to religious schools. See, e.g., Zelman. It does not require Maine to spend its money in that way. That is because, as explained above, this Court has long followed a legal doctrine that gives States flexibility to navigate the tension between the two Religion Clauses….
[D.] In my view, Maine's nonsectarian requirement is also constitutional because it supports, rather than undermines, the Religion Clauses' goal of avoiding religious strife. Forcing Maine to fund schools that provide the sort of religiously integrated education offered by Bangor Christian and Temple Academy creates a similar potential for religious strife as that raised by promoting religion in public schools. It may appear to some that the State favors a particular religion over others, or favors religion over nonreligion.
Members of minority religions, with too few adherents to establish schools, may see injustice in the fact that only those belonging to more popular religions can use state money for religious education. Taxpayers may be upset at having to finance the propagation of religious beliefs that they do not share and with which they disagree. And parents in school districts that have a public secondary school may feel indignant that only some families in the State—those families in the more rural districts without public schools—have the opportunity to give their children a Maine-funded religious education.
Maine legislators who endorsed the State's nonsectarian requirement understood this potential for social conflict. They recognized the important rights that religious schools have to create the sort of religiously inspired curriculum that Bangor Christian and Temple Academy teach.
Legislators also recognized that these private schools make religiously based enrollment and hiring decisions. Bangor Christian and Temple Academy, for example, have admissions policies that allow them to deny enrollment to students based on gender, gender-identity, sexual orientation, and religion, and both schools require their teachers to be Born Again Christians. Legislators did not want Maine taxpayers to pay for these religiously based practices—practices not universally endorsed by all citizens of the State—for fear that doing so would cause a significant number of Maine citizens discomfort or displeasure. The nonsectarian requirement helped avoid this conflict—the precise kind of social conflict that the Religion Clauses themselves sought to avoid.
Maine's nonsectarian requirement also serves to avoid religious strife between the State and the religious schools. Given that Maine is funding the schools as part of its effort to ensure that all children receive the basic public education to which they are entitled, Maine has an interest in ensuring that the education provided at these schools meets certain curriculum standards.
Religious schools, on the other hand, have an interest in teaching a curriculum that advances the tenets of their religion. And the schools are of course entitled to teach subjects in the way that best reflects their religious beliefs. But the State may disagree with the particular manner in which the schools have decided that these subjects should be taught.
This is a situation ripe for conflict, as it forces Maine into the position of evaluating the adequacy or appropriateness of the schools' religiously inspired curriculum. Maine does not want this role. As one legislator explained, one of the reasons for the nonsectarian requirement was that "[g]overnment officials cannot, and should not, review the religious teachings of religious schools." Another legislator cautioned that the State would be unable to "reconcile" the curriculum of "private religious schools who teach religion in the classroom" with Maine "standards … that do not include any sort of religion in them."
Nor do the schools want Maine in this role. Bangor Christian asserted that it would only consider accepting public funds if it "did not have to make any changes in how it operates." Temple Academy similarly stated that it would only accept state money if it had "in writing that the school would not have to alter its admissions standards, hiring standards, or curriculum." The nonsectarian requirement ensures that Maine is not pitted against private religious schools in these battles over curriculum or operations, thereby avoiding the social strife resulting from this state-versus-religion confrontation. By invalidating the nonsectarian requirement, the majority today subjects the State, the schools, and the people of Maine to social conflict of a kind that they, and the Religion Clauses, sought to prevent….
[E.] [T]he Establishment Clause forbids a State from paying for the practice of religion itself. And state neutrality in respect to the teaching of the practice of religion lies at the heart of this Clause. See, e.g., Locke (noting that there are "few areas in which a State's antiestablishment interests come more into play" than state funding of ministers who will "lead [their] congregation[s]" in "religious endeavor[s]"). There is no meaningful difference between a State's payment of the salary of a religious minister and the salary of someone who will teach the practice of religion to a person's children. At bottom, there is almost no area "as central to religious belief as the shaping, through primary education, of the next generation's minds and spirits." The Establishment Clause was intended to keep the State out of this area….
Justice Sotomayor largely endorsed Justice Breyer's dissent, but also argued that the Court erred in Trinity Lutheran, the playground resurfacing case (in which Justice Breyer concurred in the judgment); she also added:
[T]he Court's decision is especially perverse because the benefit at issue is the public education to which all of Maine's children are entitled under the State Constitution. As this Court has long recognized, the Establishment Clause requires that public education be secular and neutral as to religion. The Court avoids this framing of Maine's benefit because, it says, "Maine has decided not to operate schools of its own, but instead to offer tuition assistance that parents may direct to the public or private schools of their choice." In fact, any such "deci[sion]" was forced upon Maine by "the realities of remote geography and low population density," which render it impracticable for the State to operate its own schools in many communities….
[I]t is irrational for this Court to hold that the Free Exercise Clause bars Maine from giving money to parents to fund the only type of education the State may provide consistent with the Establishment Clause: a religiously neutral one. Nothing in the Constitution requires today's result….
I think Chief Justice Roberts is correct (and I think Justices Scalia and Thomas were correct in the Locke v. Davey dissent), especially in light of the longstanding precedents that the Free Exercise Clause generally does ban discriminatory denial of benefits and not just outright criminalization of religious practice or imposition of civil liability on such practice. (For an interesting argument that, given the word "prohibit" in the Free Exercise Clause, those longstanding precedents are mistaken, though perhaps the Equal Protection Clause might impose a similar command, see this post at The Originalism Blog by Will Foster; for an argument supporting the precedents, see this article by Prof. Michael McConnell.) But here I basically just wanted to pass along the key arguments from the opinions.
Congratulations to Michael Bindas (Institute for Justice), who argued the case for petitioners, and his IJ colleagues Arif Panju and Kirby Thomas West, who were on the brief with him.
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Eugene hit the nail on the head. We've gone from may to must. The only exception (funds for training the clergy) nullifies the Establishment Clause when it comes to public funding of religious education.
"May" didn't really address the nondiscrimination issue..."must" does that more head-on.
Of course there is discrimination against religious education. That's what the Establishment Clause ought to permit.
What the Establishment clause prohibits is legislation on the topic of establishing state religions, like the Anglican church in England. It hardly establishes a state church when you let people spend educational benefits at schools churches run.
Exactly. When the Constitution was written, state churches were generally accepted. The purpose of the Establishment Clause was to prevent the federal government from adopting one church and imposing it on the states. Even accepting that that prohibition now applies to the states, the prohibition is on creating an official state religion, not funding religious activities (especially on a come-one-come-all basis).
On Josh's reading there is a bit of a clash between the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause. The straightforward textual solution is as Brett explains - that the Establishment Clause simply bans "establishment" in the English sense - ie favoring some flavor of religion over any other.
The text says "respecting an establishment" which can include favoring religious exercise over non-religious exercise.
By "respecting an establishment, they sought to not only prevent the federal government from having its own established church, but to also prevent it from interfering with the states' established churches. "respecting" took the whole topic off the table for the federal government.
Respecting meaning "in regards to" rather than "in deference to" is not supported by any Court opinions except Thomas' idiosyncratic dissents and concurrences.
It's just supported by founding era documents. That's "all".
Sometimes the Court gets things wrong.
The text says "respecting an establishment" which can include favoring religious exercise over non-religious exercise.
Sure, it could mean that*. And "respecting could mean "showing respect to" rather than "concerning". But it probably doesn't. Brett's is probably the best reading.
But my point was not to insist that Brett's reading is the best reading of the Establishment Clause, but that it's the best reading of the Esablishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause taken together. Brett's reading avoids a clash. Yours doesn't.
* although "exercise" does not appear in the Establishment Clause. The relevant words are "no law respecting an establishment of religion" - so the relevant question is whether allowing parents to spend their notional vouchers at any schools, religious or not, is an establishment of religion.
Even if one doesn't go as far as Brett, it's quite difficult to see how treating religious schools the same as non-religious schools can reasonably be described as an "establishment" of religion. That a voucher might be spent at a Montesorri school hardly makes the Montesorri system "established" by the State. Any more than the government makes an "establishment" of 7-Eleven by allowing Food Stamps / SNAP to be used there.
The best way to deal with the clash between the two religion clauses and how to interpret them, is to permit, but not require schools to provide vouchers to religious schools (assuming they provide vouchers to nonsectarian schools). That is, the uncertainty leads us to conclude that while the Establishment Clause does not proscribe vouchers to religious schools, a state can optionally choose not to do so in furthering separation of church of state. Instead, the Court discarded this doctrine and held that the states are not permitted to further a interest in separation that goes beyond what the Constitution requires.
(*) I continue to disagree with your characterization that "the relevant question is whether allowing parents to spend their notional vouchers at any schools, religious or not, is an establishment of religion" rather than respects an establishment of religion.
1. Except that your "best way" tramples straight over the free exercise of religion, putting those exercising their religion in a worse position precisely on account of their exercise of religion. Thus your reconciliation is simply : Establishment Clause beats Free Exercise Clause. The reconcilation on Brett's reading has both Clauses punching their full weight - because funding religious and secular schools alike is not an Establishment.
2. "I continue to disagree with your characterization that "the relevant question is whether allowing parents to spend their notional vouchers at any schools, religious or not, is an establishment of religion" rather than respects an establishment of religion."
I don't think this will quite do. If we accept your characterisation that "respecting" means "showing respect to" then allowing parents to spend their notional vouchers at religious schools might be said to be "respecting religion" but how can it be "respecting the establishment of religion" ? You still need to find an "establishment" of religion from somewhere before you can "respect" it.
The only way that you can get there - on your reading - is if the availability of government money, on equal terms to that provided by parents cashing their vouchers at secular schools, is itself an establishment of religion. And in that case you don't need your "showing respect to" version of respecting. Your provision of government money is in itself "respecting" - in the sense of being about - the "establishment" (aka funding) of religion.
So the quibble about respecting falls away. You still have to show that mere funding is "establishment" and if it is, a law merely about funding does not need to "show respect."
No. The elected branches get to decide which clause wins. One state can go for Free Exercise while another chooses Establishment.
Arguable, the money aids in the promulgation of religion which is essential to its establishment.
No. The elected branches get to decide which clause wins.
No, that's not how it works :
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Congress only gets a say, if and when it has already been concluded that Congress making the law in question would not be a constitutional violation.
1. Decide whether Congress is forbidden from acting
2. If Congress isn't so forbidden, and if the subject matter is within Congress's enumerated powers, then it can act.
Congress's opinion is completely irrelevant to deciding 1.
Certainly, the Court held you determine whether a law violates the Establishment Clause as a stand-alone matter and that finding cannot then be used a defense to another law which violates Free Exercise. But as Breyer argued, persuasively in my view, that is not the proper analysis. I agree with him that the two clauses work together and there is "play in the joints" that permits the elected branches wiggle room.
Of course Breyer can find "play in the joints" ; he woud seek - and find - play in the joints of a diamond. Because his theory of law is that cases are to be decided by judges deciding what is best in the circumstances, and that in so doing they are of course free to take into account the scribblings of the constitution drafters and legislators as helpful hints. But the idea that a law might actually bind a judge's discretion has no place in his "jurisprudence."
Meanwhile, back in a world of actual law, that actually binds, the 1st Amendment contains two prohibitions on legislative action - first against "respecting an establishment of religion" and second against "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
No tension between the two arises from a natural reading of "establishment." If "the establishment" was intended to mean "any support for" it would have been easy enough to write that.
But even if there are readings - such as "the establishment" = "any support for" that create a tension, then the ordinary approach of reading text in context gives us a straightforward way to resolve the tension. If we are unsure whether the establishment clause (1) prohibits the creation of an Established Church a la Church of England, where the Church has a formal role in the State etc, or (2) prohibits any support for religion at all, we can pick the meaning that avoids the tension. Which is (1). (btw in England, though the Church of England is still "established", the state funds Catholic schools. Nobody imagines that that makes the Catholic Church "estabished.")
But even if it were the case that the two parts of 1A concerning religion were indeed at irreconcilable odds, that merely creates two prohibitions, each of which must, if possible, be complied with.
And as the majority explains, even on the Joshian reading of the establishment clause, this is easily achieved. The Maine legislature can comply with the Joshian establishment clause by not providing any support for religious schools, and it can comply with the free exercise clause by not disadvantaging religious schools as against secular schools in its voucher program, by not having a voucher program. If your reading were right, there is still no play in the joints. Maine can easily comply with both Joshian rules.
You will have noticed, of course, that Breyer's "play in the joints" happens to land up in exactly the same place as Alito's draft Dodds opinion.
Alito finds that there is no federal constitutional right to abortion and so ...... it's up to the States.
Breyer finds that "there's play in the joints" and so ..... it's up to the States.
Making it none to tricky to work out the Breyerian conclusion on the free exercise clause. There isn't one.
"first against "respecting an establishment of religion""
No, no, NO!
It does NOT have a prohibition against respecting an establishment of religion. It has a prohibition against Congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion.
If you take it out of context that way, it sounds like Congress is mandated to give religion no respect. Whereas laws respecting something are laws on the topic of that something.
A better analogy to abortion is the courts should let the states decide between two competing constitutional rights claims: the liberty right of a woman and the right to life of the fetus. Doing so does not imply those claims are without merit.
me (as quoted by Brett) : "first against "respecting an establishment of religion""
Brett : No, no, NO! It does NOT have a prohibition against respecting an establishment of religion. It has a prohibition against Congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion.
You missed out the first few words of my clause :
the 1st Amendment contains two prohibitions on legislative action - first against "respecting an establishment of religion"
Josh : A better analogy to abortion is the courts should let the states decide between two competing constitutional rights claims: the liberty right of a woman and the right to life of the fetus.
I'm not comparing the duel of constitutional claims in abortion with the duel of constitutional claims in the religious bits of the 1st Amendment. I'm comparing the Dodds draft opinion with the Joshian/Breyerian "let's split the baby" opinion on 1A.
Alito does not acknowledge as valid, and then weigh, competing and apparently contradictory constitutional claims - he finds that there are no such valid claims. He gets to "leave it to the States" because he has first found that there is no consttutional right to abortion.
The Breyerian opinion on 1A arrives at "leave it to the States" from - apparently - a completely different angle. A balancing of two allegedly contradictory valid constitutional claims.
Which illuminates the point that whatever his verbiage, what Breyer is really doing is the same as Alito - finding that the free exercise clause is as valid as Alito finds the abortion rights "clause" to be in Dodd. Nada.
How very strange. You accurately describe the difference between Alito and Breyer's approach and then conclude they are the same.
🙂
I accurately describe Alito's actual method and Breyer's pretended method, and note that although, as advertised, they look different, they arrive at the same place.
The reality of course is that Breyer has no method. He simply selects the answer he wants, and colors in the rest of the picture with a method du jour. Though to be fair, the pretended "balancing" method is one of his favorites, as it allows him to land on whichever side he wants, by adjusting the weights on the balance.
PS - the clue was "apparently"
Seems to be a misreading of what the first amendment means and intended....
The government needn't be involved with education at all.
My perspective on this is pretty simple: if it would be illegal for a government employee to do X, the government shouldn't be able to avoid that restriction by labeling the employee a "contractor" instead.
This decision? Says that the government can.
Trying to split hairs about "vouchers" instead of direct contractors is just sophistry, and the legal wranglers aren't fooling anyone (least of all themselves).
Thanks, but can you elaborate on that, please? For instance, public universities generally can't engage in religious teaching (as opposed to teaching about religion); does that mean that it would be unconstitutional for the government to let its scholarship programs -- such as the GI Bill and other grant programs -- be used at religious universities, either? The Court unanimously rejected that view in Witters v. Washington Dep't for Services for the Blind (1986).
To be sure, Carson, as I noted, isn't just about whether the government may allow scholarship funds to be used on a nondiscriminatory basis at religious private university, but whether it must allow it. But your comment seems to argue that it actually may not allow it, even if it would prefer to have a nondiscriminatory program, yes?
Sure, I'll see if I can break it down simpler for you.
If government notionally can't do X...
But government can pay Y to do X for them...
Then government can do X, but with extra steps.
So if you think it is bad for government to do X, then you should think it is bad for government to pay Y to do X.
The corollary is also true: if you think it is good for government to pay Y to do X, then you think it is good for government to do X in the first place.
Which isn't surprising: there's a reason Kennedy v. Bremerton School District is heading to the SCOTUS soon, and it's not because conservatives want the SCOTUS to reaffirm Engel v. Vitale and Lee v. Weisman.
Sure, I'll see if I can break it down simpler for you.
The unwarranted arrogance of that statement is even more astounding when one considers your fundamentally ignorant (and dishonest) use of the quoted word "contractor".
Perhaps you would be better pleased were I to play at false humility?
Perhaps you would be better pleased were I to play at false humility?
Atta' boy! Double-down on that Dunning-Kruger routine.
Let's start first with what you think the word establish actually means.
But that's where you fail to read the opinion, these schools are not contracted by the government, they are contracted by the parents.
The government is merely paying, and setting minimum standards, it's the parent that is selecting the school for their child.
As EV points out, say there was a government program that gave a Basic Income of 1500 to every citizens in their jurisdiction with a debit card, could the government cancel any transactions of funds paid to religious institutions, whether for school, child care, contributions, funeral expenses, or meals?
I don't think so.
Here the school is providing a public benefit, basic education, but the additional benefit, according to the parents, of a religious education. Or it could even be the parent is vociferously opposed to the religious tenants but thinks the quality of education outweighs the drawbacks.
So in your view, if a fire breaks out in a church or synagogue or mosque, then the local fire dept. is required to say, "sorry, can't help you. Call us when the fire spreads to the house next door."
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I see how the system the court found unconstitutional involves anyone being labeled a contractor.
I think the proposition you offer is reasonable and probably right, but its application is not. Vouchers and contractors are entirely different concepts. It's not "hair splitting." The government giving money to an individual who uses it to buy something from the private sector in no way, shape, or form makes the private sector vendor a government contractor.
It's not selected by the state, is not in privity with the state, has no contractual obligations to the state, does not perform a service for the state.
A private school at which a student chooses to use an education voucher is no more a government contractor than a grocery store at which a person chooses to use a food voucher (i.e, food stamp) is.
Continuing with your analogy, could the government say food stamps cannot be used at a kosher or halal grocery by the reasoning that they are religiously affiliated and offer food through the lens of their own religious interpretation?
Let’s be honest, we would’ve seen that before had there been Christian grocery stores.
To make this very simple, charter schools are basically contractors. Private schools are not. Getting some tax money in your pocket to spend on whatever private school you want does not turn the private school into a public contractor any more than spending food stamps at a grocery store makes the grocery store a contractor.
I'd accept some charter schools are contractors. It depends on the state's charter school law and possibly the local charter school rules. There's enough diversity of law here that I certainly can't swear all charter schools are effectively contractors.
We are now in the era in mandatory government funding of religion. The exact opposite of what 1A says. Can’t wait till a Islamic school tries to get funding and SCOTUS explains how it is ok to deny that funding.
As long as it were on the same terms as other private schools (religious or secular), then the same nondiscimination principle would apply just as much.
Do you really think a case will wend its way successfully through the courts denying your hypothetical Islamic school equal treatment and then SCOTUS will single them out?
Do you also believe that if African-Americans start buying firearms, gun owners will call for stricter gun control?
Yes I do.
And historically many gun control laws were punt into place when whites saw blacks buying more guns. It had happened
Historically, abortion was pushed as a means of reducing the number of minorities and other unwanteds, too.
Today, however, the NRA and its fellow travelers are pushing gun ownership by minorities.
Think again, Molly.
Actually, think to begin with.
Molly is right at least once, it seems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act
Well, Molly is certainly right about gun control's Jim Crow origins, and in the middle of the 20th century Republican politicians were rather complicit in that. Gun control was more bipartisan back then. Not surprising for an issue that's more government vs citizen than race vs race.
She's not so right about how modern gun owners and their 2nd amendment defense organizations react to blacks buying guns. As the NRA likes to brag, they actually helped train blacks in gun use during the Civil rights marches. That tends to get downplayed because the NRA was more aligned with CORE than the NAACP.
"Well, Molly is certainly right about gun control's Jim Crow origins, and in the middle of the 20th century Republican politicians were rather complicit in that."
As was the NRA. These days the NRA has found its calling: Dollars Uber Alles
Again, the NRA was actually helping civil rights marchers be armed.
The NRA supported the Mulford act.
The propaganda piece that you link to does not support your claim
Yes, the NRA at the time supported some degree of gun control, which is why they eventually faced a revolt by their membership which ousted the existing leaders, and replaced them with hardline 2nd amendment defenders. Because the members could see that the NRA was aiming to let gun control eventually reduce them to an historical society with a nice museum.
Which is not inconsistent with the NRA also helping to arm and train civil rights marchers, except in your head.
Again, the NRA was allied with the Congress of Racial Equality, "CORE", not the NAACP. Roy Innis, chairman of CORE, was an NRA board member.
"Which is not inconsistent with the NRA also helping to arm and train civil rights marchers, except in your head."
A little bit of evidence to support your claim, as opposed to vacuous assertions, would be nice.
The NRA's obit for Roy Innis.
Negros With Guns: Rob Williams and Black Power
"When repeated assaults on Black women in the county were ignored by the law, Williams filed for a charter from the NRA; the Black Armed Guard was born. During a 1957 integration campaign that faced violent white resistance, Williams' armed defense guard successfully drove off legions of the Klan and electrified the Black community."
Deacons For Defense And Justice
"As America’s youngest civil rights organization, the Deacons received support from America’s oldest civil rights organization—the NRA, which, like the Deacons, was dedicated to training Americans in the responsible exercise of constitutional rights. At the time, the NRA was the authorized public representative of the U.S. Army’s Civilian Marksmanship Program, and could sell army surplus ammunition at discounts to NRA members.
So the Deacons for Defense—as NRA members—bought ammunition in bulk, and distributed it for free to individual members. It’s little wonder, though, that the NRA was the Deacons’ arsenal. For most of the 20th century, the NRA shooting range in Washington, D.C., had been one of the few public accommodations in the city that was not racially segregated. Virtually alone among the sporting organizations of the late 19th and early 20th century, the NRA had always remained open to members of all races."
" they actually helped train blacks in gun use during the Civil rights marches. "
"NRA was actually helping civil rights marchers be armed."
Your evidence in support of these claims is still weak particularly considering that the NRA supported gun control measures specifically designed to disarm black civil rights activists.
"considering that the NRA supported gun control measures specifically designed to disarm black civil rights activists."
Nah, I'm pretty sure they were worried about the Black Panthers, instead.
So you concede that racial animus is what truly drive the gun control canpaign.
When democrats saw minorities buying guns*
Ftfy
In the Never Never Land that is between your ears, yes. In real life, no.
For one thing, Maine can simply not fund any private schools, period. The opinion says so. So there goes the word "mandatory" in your sentence.
Well, the Court ruled unanimously in favor of the Muslim inmate in Holt v. Hobbs (2015); I doubt that, given the "bedrock religious equality" principle (in the words of Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence in Ramirez v. Collier (2022)), it would somehow distinguish Muslim schools from other schools.
(I recognize that the Court had been faulted for not granting the Muslim inmate's request for an imam to be at the execution with him in Dunn v. Ray (2019) but granted a Buddhist inmate's similar request in Murphy v. Collier (2019), but as Justice Kavanaugh noted in Ramirez and Justice Kavanaugh and Chief Justice Roberts noted in Murphy, the distinction in those cases had to do with the timeliness of the petition.)
I think you'll have to wait. The same kinds of people (like the Becket Fund) who litigate in favor of the rights of Christians also litigate in favor of those of Muslims.
How is this different than yesterday, when government had to let public grants be spent at a religious college if the recipient so chose?
Do liberals own dictionaries? Do you know the difference between fund and esablish?
From the dissent: "...public schools are religiously neutral, neither disparaging nor promoting any one particular system of religious beliefs."
Well if this were really true, then I'd have no problem with their position. But alas, when DeSantis recently tried to have Florida public schools be simply "neutral" (or silent, in that case...) regarding certain famously contested/competing value systems, the left wasn't so keen on values-neutral anymore...
Public schools aren't supposed to be neutral when it comes to almost all value systems (it's government speech). But when it comes to religious beliefs, the Establishment Clause says otherwise.
No. It doesn't. And the fact that it can be broken down simply by showing schools of multiple religions can be funded through students and families to go to them shows it is not establishing a religion. Likewise it funds non religious institutions equally. There is no establishment in any matter.
Establishment does not mean fund.
I'm fact your establishment arguments are probably more pronounced in the case of the IRS vs the tea party when the IRS demanded proof people were religious for certain matters and would ask for private diaries and church attendance laws to allow government claims of a true belief.
Quick, everyone switch sides on the importance of respecting precedent!
This is so very different. Trinity Lutheran isn't a super-duper precedent, so it's entirely appropriate to not respect it.
As a non-believer, I agree with the decision - as long as the funds are used for the standard public school fare (Soc. Studies, Sci, Math, Eng, foreign language, arts, PE, shop, etc.).
Gotta somehow keep the kiddies from getting too whacked in the head.
AFAIK most states have minimum standards for all schools, public, private and parochial. I don't think this opinion says otherwise. So I do think the State of Maine is within its rights to insist that for schools it pays for (and even those it doesn't), that the students come out with a decent secular education. Or at least as good as they would get in a public school.
FWIW, my children went to religious schools and got an excellent secular education. One went to high school in NY and got an Honors Regent diploma. (Others went to NJ, no Regents here.) The notion that you cannot get an excellent secular education in a religious school is risible,
Yeah, those Pubic Schools are Top Notch! (HT. Judge E. Smails)
Frank
The funds are used for both the standard public-school fare and religious education at the two schools at issue in the case.
I'm an atheist who is also the product of a Christian education (16 years worth). As Christian education is actually done, it is simply impossible to separate sectarian dogma from objective fields of study like math and science. Religion permeates everything.
The math and science students are going to be told that we live in an orderly, rational world because that's how God created it, and further there is no objective basis for any truth except for God. (I once asked if two plus two would still equal four if God didn't exist, only to be told it was a meaningless question.) The science students are going to be given a hefty dose of intelligent design and told that evolution is an unproven theory contradicted by the available evidence. And frankly, given their world view, I don't see how they could do otherwise.
People who have no experience with Christian schools tend to think they are just like public schools with a little religious education thrown in. They're not. They are the Christian equivalent of madrassas. And that's what Maine will now be funding.
Good thing all Christian schools are the same.
"atheist who is also the product of a Christian education (16 years worth)."
The religious instruction sure worked!
"Christian equivalent of madrassas"
Have you met Capt Crisis, he thinks a skirt or dress is like a burqa. Both stupid comparisons.
I don't think a skirt is the equivalent of a burqa, but when a school's motto is "Training disciplined soldiers for Christ," the madrassa comparison is not that far off.
A madrassa is not by definition militant as you seem to be stereotyping. The word refers to literally any school, but is usually referring to an Islamic school as equivalent to a Catholic school or similar, meaning religious education coupled with secular education.
How something has come to be understood in common parlance and how, strictly speaking, it is defined in the dictionary, are not always the same thing. You are correct that that was the traditional definition of a madrassa. But these days, most people understand it to mean a specific subset of educational institutions.
> “Was the traditional definition”
It remains the current use of the word in common parlance. Many schools across the United States, let alone the world, use the word madrasa in their very name, which do not conform with your stereotype.
> “most people”
This is not a true statement until you narrow down the group of people so selectively for insular existence that it becomes a useless sample set. We can simply observe how the word is employed today to draw the conclusion that your stereotype is invalid.
The very fact that you care enough to be making an issue of it is evidence that you understand full well that "madrassa" has become an emotionally laden term, whether or not that was the original meaning. We don't use the term "fetch" when asking a subordinate to bring us something, even though it's a perfectly good word that simply means "bring", because it has acquired emotional baggage.
And besides, this entire discussion is simply a distraction. If you want to talk about the point I was actually making, great.
A correction does not prove the error true. I would also have corrected you if you had declared the world flat. This sacrifice of my time for your benefit would not prove the world was flat.
Like I said, if you want to talk about the point I was actually making, great.
How something has come to be understood in common parlance
Translation: "Here's how I excuse my ignorance..."
Wuz, anyone who’s been here for any length of time gets that you’re an old crank who is fundamentally incapable of recognizing that honest disagreement is actually a thing.
Wuz, anyone who’s been here for any length of time gets that you’re an old crank who is fundamentally incapable of recognizing that honest disagreement is actually a thing.
Your lack of self-awareness rears its ugly head again. I'm well aware of the existence of honest disagreement, which is why I recognize its many, many instances here (as evidenced by my lack of criticism of it). What I also recognize is your inability/unwillingness to engage in it, coupled with your childishly clumsy attempts to pretend otherwise.
Oh really, when was the last time you said, "I don't agree with that but it's a valid point"?
Oh really, when was the last time you said, "I don't agree with that but it's a valid point"?
Did, "as evidenced by my lack of criticism of it" use too many polysyllabic words for you to grasp it? Or are you so dumb that you think the only way to simply accept something is to post your $0.02 worth of opinion about it?
Krychek_2
Did you ask the question in math class or religion class. Because the teacher at your religious school gave the secular answer which I would expect in math. God's existence doesn't matter in math and pondering if things would be different with a different or no God is meaningless in math. It might matter in a religion class (although the best religious answer could be "we don't and can't know what the universe would be like without God.")
I went to Catholic high school. This did not happen there.
I would draw a distinction between Catholic schools and evangelical ones; my comments were directed to evangelical ones.
My question was in a math class in which the introductory lecture was devoted to how logic and reason -- including the ability to solve algebra problems -- rely on God for their existence. No God means no truth, no reality, no basis for morality. My question was therefore a meaningless question because the concepts "two" and "four" depend on God for their existence. You could equally as well try to make an omelette without eggs.
Ah, so Catholics aren't real Christians in your mind.
No, they do education differently than evangelicals do.
I think your blanket stereotype of schools is precisely why using religious affiliation as a heuristic for curriculum is impermissible. If you want to judge a curriculum by content you need to do just that - establish standards, evaluate, report gaps, act.
And I think that it's flat out impossible for the state to delve too deeply into what religious schools teach without creating a different First Amendment problem. You really want agents of the state going over religious schools' curricula to decide if they can get funding?
You’re already in a First Amendment problem - fish, meet water.
So yeah, rather than declaring that vouchers cannot be used at a school that may otherwise be the identical in operation aside from a symbol over the door, I would like to see some effort to articulate a requirement and have a battle over that if it does harm (to the extent that a state even really cares). I’m very interested in exploring that. Heuristics are shortcuts, valuable in some circumstances but inappropriate here, I think.
You just say "these are the academic standards a school must meet to qualify for funding under this program." If the school wants to be eligible for the funding, they show they meet those academic standards. They can also teach other things, but every school regardless of affiliation has to show they teach the curriculum basics. Not that big of a problem.
All right, do you give vouchers to schools whose science classes teach young earth creationism? Or, whose history classes teach that the Holocaust was a hoax?
There are multiple problems with giving government money to religious schools, and one of them is that their science departments are going to be teaching stuff that's flat out wrong. If parents want their kids taught that the first 11 chapters of Genesis are literal history, fine, but not on my nickel.
All right, do you give vouchers to schools whose science classes teach young earth creationism? Or, whose history classes teach that the Holocaust was a hoax?
No. Any other idiotic questions?
Wuz, see my response to you above.
I agree there are distinctions between different religious schools. But it appears Maine made none. There may be specific types of schools and curricula they want to accept or reject. But now they need to do the work of identifying their criteria using something other than just "religious".
Oy! So your math class brought up God. Mine never did. There was certainly never any suggestion that two and four depend on God for their existence!
My physics teacher did bring up in a 1 week topic, but this also had to do with scientific method, Kuhn, paradigm shifts and so on and so on. The question of what distinguishes science from religion is a useful one, and my physics teacher was a nun. So it was natural for her to do it there. (I am an atheist btw. So I'm not just being an apologist for a co-religionist.)
I think all religions are nonsense, but I also think some forms of religion are less socially harmful than others. And that spills over into how they do education.
Probably most Catholics do not believe the universe was created in six solar days approximately 6,000 years ago, that the animal species that exist now have existed since the creation (with no new ones being made) or that Noah's ark was an actual historical event. The evangelicals who raised me did. They also believe that when an unbeliever goes to work in the morning he is sinning against God, because God is supposed to be the center of everything you do.
Now, if I had to make a choice between the education I got and, say, a Jesuit education, I'd choose the Jesuits because they at least aren't batshit crazy.
The evangelicals who raised me did.
You sound like someone who was touched inappropriately by a gay man when you were a child, and who now thinks most gay men are pedophiles.
And you sound like someone who was touched in the head by a virus that left you with delusions that your comments are worth reading.
And you sound like someone who was touched in the head by a virus that left you with delusions that your comments are worth reading.
Let's see if you can figure out how intrinsically stupid that assertion is.
Let's see if you can figure out how much you present as an old crank who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him is stupid or lying.
anyone who disagrees with him is stupid or lying
Given that I don't even respond to most people who post opinions contrary to my own we can take the above as further evidence that you are stupid and/or lying. It's like I don't even have to make these points about you, seeing as how you're so eager to make them yourself.
Catholics do not generally adhere to 'literal interpretation' of the Bible. Generally, the "days" in the creation myth is seen as metaphor. Jesuits run good schools, but generally for boys. The order of nuns for my school were "RSCJ" and they also were not bat-shit crazy! I just don't happen to share their religious views.
Wait til he finds out the churches led most of the scientific advancements prior to the enlightenment. And trials such as against Copernicus were based on scientific beliefs at the time (parallax in that case)
So if we disagree with things taught in schools, we should be able to stop our tax dollars from going to them?
Yeah I'd be fine with that, too.
I don't know where you went to school, but if you think your conclusion follows from anything I said, you obviously didn't take a class in basic logic.
No, in context, that's exactly what you said. What you left off was that you were referring to evangelical schools in particular. That doesn't change the concept.
Not even close. That I singled out a specific subset of schools that should not be funded because they are sectarian does not translate into a general rule that any school that teaches anything at all that I disagree with shouldn't be funded.
Obama grew up in a madrassa and y’all don’t seem to mind how he turned out.
Right, the guy who had Osama bin Laden tracked down and killed is a closet Muslim terrorist.
Right, the guy who had Osama bin Laden tracked down and killed is a closet Muslim terrorist.
So you're actually a Sarcastr0 sock puppet? Or are you just such an Islamophobic bigot that you think "grew up in a madrassa" = "Muslim terrorist"?
No, I think that’s what BravoCharlieDelta thinks.
No, I think...
That's obviously not true.
...that’s what BravoCharlieDelta thinks.
Based on what...other than what the voices in your held tell you?
OK, this is another example of you not being able to follow a basic conversation and ascribing your own lack of reading comprehension to other people's dishonesty or stupidity.
BCD has a long history here of anti-Muslim comments, including thinly veiled claims that Muslim equals terrorist. I don't have the time to dig them all out for you but if you actually care you can find them on your own.
OK, this is another example of you not being able to follow a basic conversation and ascribing your own lack of reading comprehension to other people's dishonesty or stupidity.
Unlike you I can read what was actually written vs what you want to pretend was written.
it is simply impossible to separate sectarian dogma from objective fields of study like math and science. Religion permeates everything.
What school was that, or what religion school was that? I went to Catholic schools for 8/12 years, and from my own standpoint, the above is abject BS.
For the fourth time now, I'm talking about evangelical schools, not Catholic ones. Did your Catholic school not teach you reading comprehension?
At some point the courts are going to have to deal with the underlying driver of these disputes, which is the double standard of leftist cultural values/beliefs being deemed "nonreligious" -- and thus not subject to the establishment clause but simply being unfettered "state speech," etc.
Secularists back in the 60s may have had the right idea by asking courts to include *all* belief systems within the definition of "religion" (and courts did begin to dabble in that, before abandoning it...). They were seeking that in pursuit of free-exercise protections, but that seems like a fair trade if it also subjects them to the establishment clause...
Mainly, you do it the way "most people" do it.
"seems to bar all government "sponsorship, financial support, [or] active involvement … in religious activity"
"Establishment" has a specific meaning, a state church with paid clergy and [usually] state appointed clergy. UK with the Church of England or Sweden with the Lutheran Church or colonial and early independence Massachusetts with the local Congregational Church.
So long as the Supreme Court thinks Establishment means mere modest "sponsorship, financial support, activity", we are going to have cases like this. Its based on a complete misunderstanding of what "Establishment" means. I blame Tom Jefferson.
Yeah, why would we expect someone like Thomas Jefferson to have had any insight into the legal meaning of technical terms used in the late 18th century?
Oh, now the slaver is good.
Its the "wall of separation" phrase that haunts us. Tom had weird religious beliefs for the time so not the best source of standard views.
Right on!
The abominable "history" invented by Mr. Chief Justice Waite, in Reynolds v United States (1879) is absurd. How a political missive to the Danbury Baptists could lead to such a detour in the construction of the Establishment Clause is unfathomable.
(If anyone is interested I commented on the issue a it more at https://www.philosophical-vistas.net/jeffersons-wall-of-separation/).
The last sentence of the above should read "a bit more". (Stupid keyboard ,,,)
Thomas Jefferson? You mean that guy who, as president, attended church services held in the House of Representatives chamber and supported the appropriation of federal funds for the support of a Catholic priest ministering to the Kaskaskia Indians?
Bob misspoke, somewhat. Jefferson's view of good public policy is not the same thing as what the sovereign People enacted when they enacted the Establishment Clause in the Bill of Rights. It is the conflation of the two that is the problem. The blame is not on Thomas Jefferson but the Supreme Court for the conflation.
Yeah, why would we expect someone like Thomas Jefferson to have had any insight into the legal meaning of technical terms used in the late 18th century?
He didn't say Jefferson lacked an understanding of the meaning of anything. He blamed Jefferson (presumably because of the latter's "thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" phrasing in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptists) for a general misunderstanding on the part of others regarding what "establishment" means as used in the EC.
Sounds like they may be worried about a . . . slippery slope. *rimshot*
Blame James Madison. He was the main author, not Jefferson.
I sense a (Very Wrong) (Reverend) Arthur T. Sandusky "Bitter Klingers" comment coming.
Frank "Amen!!!"
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened." -- Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi
LOL...touche.
Funny that one of the Judges in the Minority (a "Minority" in the Minority!) is the one who can't tell an XX from an XY. (Hint, its the thing that rhymes with Cock)
The Democrats absolutely love the principle of discrimination.
The party of slavery, of mandatory segregation, mandatory integration, and now mandatory segregation again. They don't change much. If it weren't for racism and classism, they'd be bereft of party platforms.
And how do you feel about religious exemptions? Are they not discriminatory?
It's the Democrats who have elevated discrimination to some sort of the highest of the most treasonous evil crimes of all.
Unless of course, they're doing it. Then it's the Paradox of Tolerance!
I believe in free association, not forced association. Democrats do too, free association for the Federals and the rest of the elites. Forced association for the slave classes.
OK! Then we'll start founding charter schools of Satanism, and see how these loop-a-doops like having their tax dollars pay for the teachers to proselytize Satanism to the kids.
Careful what you wish for. I for one would be very much in favor of a system where all schools are more candid about their particular indoctrination patterns. I can't imagine a better tool to help drive school choice.
"See how they like it" is not a legal argument. But thanks for your input.
go for it.
Please do it. The more Satanist institutions that are protected, the more obvious it will be that no religion can’t be discriminated against by government. Religious people will breathe easy knowing that they can never be treated like second class citizens because even the Satanists get treated fairly.
I suspect that in establishing a church of satanism in the backwoods of Maine where the government is already ceding some of their monopoly services to the private sector, you’d find a shortage of applicants to be the start of many challenges before reaching a court case over denied vouchers.
Ay-uh!
Not charter schools, private schools. And please persuade more states to adopt school choice where the money follows the student according to their choice of where to go. Then, feel free to enjoy your schools of Satanism and the funding, with as many students as you can persuade to sign up.
Reading Twitter again, I see. This stupid straw man was already shredded there. Synopsis: Go ahead. We really don't mind.
You say that now, but when the videos start coming out of taxpayer-funded Islamic schools' firearm-training classes, we'll see how long this lasts.
Back when the Supreme Court position was that the state could not fund religious schools, I thought myself supportive of s strong interpretation of the Free Exercise Clause by thinking thst it could.
But now that the Supreme Court has held that it must, I find myself to the left of it.
I think it can but doesnmt have to is the correct position. Taxpayers are entitled not to have to support denominations they regard as heretical, either in the traditional understanding of heresy or in our own Rev. Arthur Kirkland’s understanding of it. (Heresy in the sense of “false and dangerous doctrines” definitely describes what Rev. Arthur Kirkland is against.)
For this reason, my view has been that neither prohibiting nor supporting is an option that can be taken.
The current decision raises a host of issues. With money comes strings. What if government wants to mandate coed schools, cord faculty, coed bathrooms, etc.? It seems that under current Supreme Court doctrine, religious schools get the best of both worlds. Government has to fund them, and it can’t tell them what to do. I think this goes too far. In my view, I agree that government cannot tell religious schools what to do. It can’t tell schools that they have to allow women to lead prayer, wear hot pants, or use men’s bathrooms. Moreover, it can’t diecrkminate in its funding, funding only liberal religious schools and not conservative ones. But it ought to retain the option of not funding any religious schools at all.
Conservatives have long complained about various lineral projects to read rights to funding into the constitution. For example, conservatives rightly complained at the peak of pro-abortion sentiment on the court when the court came close to striking down restrictions on funding abortion and declaring that government HAS TO fund fund aabortion if it funds any health care at all.
I think they were right to complain. But if they want to complain about such things, they ought to keep their noses out of the feedijg trough and not use the courts to order government to fund their pet projects either.
Just as it didn’t unconstitutionally discriminate against women for government not to fund abortion, it doesn’t unconstitutionally discriminate against religion for government not to fund religious schools. Constitutional law isn’t just a grab to get what one can for ones constitutuents or favored groups.
Too zealous a regard for ones favored groups always leads one to conclude they are being treated unfairly. Hitler’s basic case was that Germans had been treated in a completely unfair manner. He exemplifies and serves as a warning about the extremes to which an out-of-control sense of grievance can take one.
I fear that Alito in pasrticular seems to be motivated by a strong sense of aggrievement consistent with the general sense of aggrievement that the Trump right has normalized in our political discourse, a sense of grievance all too similar to that of Fascist movements a century ago.
Even when I happen to agree with him on the result, I fear my country for where that sense of grievance can lead, how it can blind one, how it can lead to be radically unfair to, indeed oppress, others.
Interpreting the religion clauses requires balance. Generally speaking, the minority can do what they want. But their ability to burden the majority has to be limited. In my view, these limits include that the majority can require the minority to pay its own way.
To give a more specific, focused objection, the Court in Hosannah Tabor gave a very expanssive view of what constitutes a minister priveleged from most employment laws. Most teachers in religious schools are ministers under this view, because the teaching of religion is not limited specifically to theological sunjects. Rather, it pervades how secular subjects get taught, religious schools might, for example, use the Bible rather than Rubyfruit Jungle to teach English with.
I think the Hosannah-Tabor argument is valid. I think there should be a broad ministerial privelege. But I would apply the same test for determining what constitutes religious instruction (ministerial work) when deciding what government doesn’t have to fund as I use when deciding what gets privileged from government regulation.
What’s sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.
ReaderY
My impression was the problem was the Maine law would have permitted single-sex schools or single-sex faculty etc provided the schools weren't religious. I should think the legislature could have listed coed as a requirement without regard to the religious status and that wouldn't have a 1A problem.
I'm sure they could do something similar by insisting on some standards for curricula. Of course, they might then be challenged to show those standards are enforced at public and non-religious private schools too.
The Maine legislature can know sit down and think about whether there was some educational standard they were hoping to apply through the "no religious schools" proxy and actually write that rule formally.
Surely you’re not suggesting Maine could enforce a coed requiremwnt against a religious school?
No. I'm suggesting they could say the tuition grants can only be used at coed schools that have coed faculty and enforce it equally for secular and religious schools.
The basic answer is that whether to allow mixed-gender education is a matter of religious doctrine, so by only funding schools whose doctrines the state finds agreeable the state is establishing its preferred doctrines.
Let’s walk through a specific example. The Supreme Court held in Hosannah Tabor that teachers of secular subjects at religious schools are classified as ministers for purposes of the Ministerial Privelege if they insert religous content into the secular subjects. Suppose a religious school does this.
My argument is that what’s a minister for the religious school ought to be the same in both cases, both when a church is asserting a right not to be bound by the state’s rules, and when it is asking the state for funding. That means that if the religious school interweaves religious themes into secular subjects, the teacher should also be considered a minister for funding purposes, not just for purposes of getting out of state regulatory rules. So if the state pays for teachers for religious schools that have female faculty but not religious schools that don’t, it is paying for ministers for churches whose doctrines allow female ministers, but not paying for ministers for churches whose doctrines don’t allow female ministers.
If that’s not an establishment of religion, what is?
I don’t think the state has to pay for churches that don’t allow female ministers. And if it doesn’t want to, I think it’s better not to pay for any religious schools at all, then to pay for only religious schools of churches whose doctrines are to its liking.
My sense is that religious leaders are more concerned than anyone about weakening the Establishment Clause. I'm not religious but I don't care that much about the separation of church and state as long as I'm not forced to materially participate. But I would be worried if I were a religious organization. Entangling religious institutions with government money won't end well for the religious institutions. It appears the actual religious schools aren't excited at all about this ruling and are likely to decline to accept these vouchers anyway.
I don't think this decision prevents strings at all - it's just that the (state) government has said it doesn't want to be in the business of policing the strings, and the schools have said they don't want the money if strings are attached. There's a fantastic solution in there, somewhere (it involves strings).
> "Taxpayers are entitled not to have to support denominations they regard as heretical"
Wut?
Why should taxpayers have a special entitlement versus religion and not similar entitlements versus environmentalism and every other ideology?
Because environmentalism and other ideologies don’t have special clauses about them in the Constitution.
That’s not an answer to why. That’s a legal theory justifying a preference.
I guess that’s your answer though? You personally prefer it that way and you think it may be possible to get your way based on expansive reading of one clause and limited reading of the next.
Beyond your personal preference, why?
What if the group declares themselves "not a religion" for these purposes? That’s what environmentalists do, even though their practices and beliefs mirror those of religions. Then they’re ok? Or do you get to decide which group is a religion too?
I suppose you could say that the idea that the Vice President doesn’t get to decide which electoral votes to count and which to discard is “just a legal theory.” Same as the idea that the President can’t simply shoot you walking down 5th Avenue and have complete impunity. That’s also “just a legal theory.” I suppose you could say anythjng in the Constitution is “just a legal theory.”
That’s a lot of changing the subject to avoid answering.
I guess I was right about why. It’s your personal preference. You fashion your personal preferences as important or something.
The court doesn’t agree that no establishment matters a lot and free exercise hardly at all. Maybe you should have told them how important your personal preferences are before it was too late.
The “could/doesn’t have to” formulation sounds like it opens the door to favoritism and discrimination obey the state.
“By the state.”
Government doesn't "have to fund them"
Rather, if Government is outsourcing public education, it can't deliberately exclude religious schools.
It strikes me that the Breyer frequently cites the possibility of offense, rather than actual harm, as a reason to deny the funding:
"Taxpayers may be upset"
"Members of minority religions...may see injustice"
"Parents...may feel indignant"
My own sense - in principle - is that when there is actual harm asserted, bring the case and evaluate. Making a decision based on imagined offenses is a recipe for disaster, and aside from recognizing the Chilling Effect a law may have on the exercise of rights, a court typically wants to see harm done, not imagined.
I'm also struck by Sotomayor's swipe about the government being 'forced' to not provide public education because [reasons]. This seems entirely immaterial to the issue and just rhetoric. I think she has a strong enough point about the legitimacy of requiring religiously neutral education for the subsidy without trying to speciously cast the government as a victim of their own cost-benefit analysis.
However, it also seems to me that Maine still has avenues to pursue if it wants to regulate this (despite not wanting to be in that business). The schools don't seem to want the subsidies if they come with strings attached. Maine can attach some strings about the qualifying curriculum.
Sure they'll have to police it, but I think the Court is effectively saying that the burden on free exercise from an outright ban on participation in the program is higher and less acceptable than the burden of policing the course content would be on the state. If the cost is that high, the education policing burden so onerous, maybe they can open a rural school for less.
As with many Court decisions (looking at you, Citizens United), there's a trade off - maybe the ruling isn't an ideal solution, but it's less bad than the alternative rationale and all that it would imply up and down the road of past and future decisions.
What strings could Maine attach?
E.g., admission standards, hiring standards, etc., as qualification for entitlement to public subsidies to the school (rather than reimbursement of the parents for tuition payments). Breyer worries that this will be a set up for conflict between the government and religion, but that horse has left the barn, as they say - this case itself is/was a conflict.
Neither the opinion or the dissent suggest that strings are not allowed, merely that they present their own difficulties.
So it's a question of lesser burdens:
* Burden of building and operating remote education facilities (painful but doable).
* Burden of state establishing and policing qualifying standards for subsidies to private schools (painful but doable).
* Burden upon free exercise of religion (red flag).
SCOTUS says state gets to play amongst the first two, but not avoid both by simply banning a private school for qualifying subsidies because it has a religious symbol on the outside of the building. And that's all we're talking about in terms of the school precisely because the state doesn't care _at all_ about the content of the curriculum they are subsidizing: a private school that does not have a religious symbol outside could be teaching utter crap, and the state wouldn't care under the program they proposed. I think this decision says that if you want to discriminate on the content of a curriculum, you need to get your hands dirty, not just use the heuristic of "religion".
Yes, Maine limited funding to nonsectarian schools without regard to the curriculum. But, are you saying Maine could have denied funding based on religious instruction being part of the curriculum (I highly doubt this Court would agree)? Or, are you saying it could set curriculum standards that don't explicitly mention religion but have a disparate impact on religious schools? If so, what would those standards be?
I'm not Caphon.
But I suspect the state could require schools teach certain math courses, literature, science-- including evolution, health-- including sex ed including forms of contraception.
I went to Catholic school in the 70s. The school covered all of that. I'm sure many Catholic schools do still cover all that. But those rules might exclude some religious schools so it would have a disparate impact on those schools.
Of course there may be secular private schools that consider courses on contraception a waste of time rather than a religious problem. They would be excluded too.
I think those strings would pass muster, but most likely have only a modest disparate impact not anywhere close to what Maine wanted.
JoshR,
Sure. I suspect the Maine legislators who passed the law specifically wanted to exclude religious schools because they are religious. If that's what they wanted they are are out of luck.
I'm not sure it's worth me adding much to the exchange you and lucia_l had, as it's along the lines of what I was thinking. Specifically, I would imagine the Court would be kinder to the latter of your hypotheticals - standards that are facially neutral but may have disparate impact on some religious schools.
I think the words "may" and "some" are important here because it distinguishes the catch-all approach of condemning any school with a religious symbol on the door from the content of their education. It's not a given that every religious school or even most would fail to meet state expectations. It's also not a given that states would set the bar very high.
To this, Maine may say, "hold my beer," and go on to enact pretty onerous and invasive requirements, and then that's a different fight and I think an interesting one. Hypothetical extremes to illustrate may be the appropriateness of the state requiring that every school teach, without qualification, "gender-as-a-spectrum", or that there is no reality but the prime material plane.
But I don't think this decision in any way precludes Maine from going back and writing in requirements as a condition on receiving state funding. That's very different than saying any condition Maine conceives of would be valid (there are plenty we know would be invalid even for secular schools). I suspect there's also some nuance to be found in the law if the reimbursement is going direct to the school or if it reimburses the parent for a portion of tuition receipts.
lucia's strings didn't amount to much of a burden on religious education. Perhaps "gender as a spectrum" would? I'm not sure. Thus, I think it is likely implementing the second of your three burdens is not effective (from Maine's viewpoint). In effect, the Court has left Maine only your option 1.
Josh R,
Being forced to teach gender as a spectrum would probably be something many religious schools would not do. The thing is: The state legislature or their department of education making rules would have to explicitly state this is a requirement for schools. They likely would also have to make it clear that all public schools are required to teach that. Otherwise, the religious schools might be able to make a case that the state doesn't really care if kids are taught that, they just made this rule to exclude religious schools.
But of course Maine could require that of all public schools too. But that could easily get lots voters up in arms.
When conservative claim schools do teach that sort of thing, school boards and educators have a tendency to deny they actually teach anything of the sort. They like to say they just teach things like being welcoming or there are diverse types of people and you should judge &etc. So either (a) the public schools don't teach that (so it would be ridiculous to require private and religious schools to do so) or (b) the public schools are lying. If (b) the motive for the lie is they know lots of parents don't want that taught.
And if it's (b) rather hard to write the requirement down as an explicit rule and then also deny that it is taught.
So I really don't think Maine is going to be able to exclude religious schools while keeping private schools in the program with that particular rule. Whether they can think of another one I don't know. But they probably have to think of a rule Maine voters want to apply to all public schools too.
Honestly, I think Maine will go with option (b): allowing parents to use vouchers at both types of schools.
When I said, the Court left Maine no other option (than operating remote public schools), I meant no other option to exclude vouchers going to religious schools. That is, I agree with you that playing around with curriculum standards won't get the job done. And since operating remote public schools isn't likely to happen, Maine loses and Caphon was wrong to claim "Maine still has avenues to pursue."
Well, I still would push back here. You're assuming Maine cannot, either for lack of will, consensus, messiness, or other reasons, put down on paper exactly what their issue with sectarian education is and have it survive public scrutiny.
I am skeptical of this and think this is precisely the avenue still available to Maine. I'm supremely interested in why this couldn't be done. The kind of sunlight that lucia_l is talking about would be fascinating, but I also hesitate to assume that it is necessarily so controversial. The "gender as a spectrum" example was intentionally extreme to demonstrate how messy the transparency could be, but aren't there examples from the simpler end of the continuum?
Let's say a set of requirements as follows:
* right of state observers to do 0-day notice observation of secular classes (as defined by topic).
* records tracing how voucher money is spent, demonstrating funds for qualifying student are not spent on anything but secular classes the student is enrolled in.
* Review of textbooks used by schools receiving voucher money.
* Requirement that certain topics are taught as part of syllabus (evolution, sex-ed beyond abstinence-only approach, etc).
* Requirement that electives are open to both males and females.
* Requirement that all students attend secular job fairs once per year.
Now I know that some of these requirements may be moot - like the fungibility of cash means the traceability isn't terribly meaningful in itself, but it's a facially neutral reporting requirement that would be more burdensome to a school that teaches both sectarian and secular material, and not applicable to a school that teaches only secular material. It would be perilous for the school to ignore, particularly if reimbursements to the state are the penalty of not being able to show your work.
Additionally, there's expense involved in regulating this on the state end, but I would suggest that a state manage this by exception. Make the requirements known, reactively investigate schools. Some schools will not even accept vouchers with such strings attached. Some will accept them and ignore the rules. A portion of those will get caught.
But I think these examples are on the simpler side without getting into very dangerous waters, and would be somewhat effective at weeding out the most extreme sectarian education institutions. Like a lot of pernicious regulation, it would start small and reasonable. In time, trial balloons will be floated, litigation brought, elections won and lost, and the requirements would evolve.
Caphon,
I agree the avenue is available to Maine. I just don't think the specific rule JoshR suggested would be picked because requiring all schools teach "gender as a spectrum" is probably not going to muster enough votes in the legislature. I could be wrong, but that's what I anticipate as reality.
Of course that example was extreme. The legislature may think of other examples. But I think it will be difficult for them to find rules that will exclude all religious schools, not exclude non-religious private schools and which they wish to apply to public schools. (The latter is to show the rule advances a true important public policy rather than be created merely to burden religion.)
Maybe I'm wrong.
Now let's look at your list.
Will they apply this equally to public and non-religious schools? Also: many religious schools would be fine with this. But beyond that: cost? It's not cheap to suddenly drop several state observers in a school room.
Many religious schools will be fine with this.
Many religious schools will be fine with this. I'd guess they would need to apply this equally to private non-religious schools. The state will then need to actually review the books and deem some not useful. And the state will then likely need to explain their criteria.
It would be interesting if any of them happen to be used at public schools. You'd need to ban their use in public schools too. Public schools might not like having their choices reviewed or limited.
Many religious schools teach these things. My Catholic school taught all of them in the 70s and I'm sure it still does. Sex-ed was required by the state of Illinois. That did not close down the Catholic schools.
They would need to apply this to the private schools too. In any case, lots of religions have no objection to this. A few will.
That's not a bad rule if it's age appropriate. Its stupid for 2nd graders.
Are they going to apply it to public school kids too? I'm all for public school kids being exposed to job fairs. Ideally they will see military recruiters, plumbers, dancing instructors and so on in addition to white collar jobs.
It would be nice if the state ran some bigs ones and paid for bus loads of kids to come.
Most of your list of requirements would be the way to go. But your specific list isn't objectionable to many religious schools so they would still qualify for funds. Some on the list may be objectionable to some schools-- including some secular ones. In fact, that's likely the way Maine would go.
But you might find public schools object to some of your proposed rules. The difficulty is it's just not easy to make a religiously neutral rule that actually bars most religious schools. These rules will bar some religious schools; not most.
I'm guessing the current Court would find such a requirement unconstitutional.
I am wrong in thinking that the Establishment Clause was meant to prohibit the government from establishing a single religion as the religion of the State, like the Church of England? If that is what it means, how would allowing public funding to be used at any religious school violate the Establishment Clause?
If the qualifications for funding required the schools to be religious, yes.
If the qualifications for funding were chosen so that only religious schools wpuld qualify, yes.
You're not wrong. If we returned to the original meaning of the phrase we wouldn't even have to have these kinds of cases.
The minute the state imposes any ccondition on its funding that violates a religious school’s creed - schools must be coed, must teach Heather Has Two Moms, must let students pick which bathroom they want to use - then it is not in fact funding “any religious school.” It is only funding religious schools whose doctrines conform to the Establishment.
You think that’s not going to happen?
There is not much evidence for this view, though Justice Thomas has adopted it.
Actually, the drafting and debate history of the amendment supports it.
The original amendment as it emerged from the House read, “Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, nor shall the rights of conscience be infringed.”
The Senate took this, and changed it to, “Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion . . . .”
The final language emerged from a joint committee. It seems to have addressed one of the House members' concerns that the amendment might prevent states from having established religions, by barring legislation on the topic of any sort, but this is far from clear. What is clear is that the topic address was, in fact, Congress establishing a state church.
Language being rejected actually proves the *opposite* of what you and the Federalist Society's Religious Liberties Practice Group say it does.
Both the House and the Senate wanted language clearly barring a federal established religion, and you think together they agreed on an amendment doing something else? If "establishment of religion" just means an established church, they both got what they started out wanting.
That's not what the House language, nor the conference language says.
One should keep in mind the limited effect of this decision. To my knowledge, no state outside Maine has such a system where parents can designate state funds to private schools. In most places, the teachers' unions do not allow it.
Orono and Bangor maine have a population just shy of $50k, A little surprising that they would not have a secondary education schools , 9th -12th grade
The population of the school appropriate age is the driver, not the general population.
Orono and Bangor maine have a population just shy of $50k.
So...what's the current exchange rate between US$1 and 1 person? Or are you doing your head counts in Canuck $$?
With growing concern for where this Court will lead us next,” she wrote, “I respectfully dissent.”
The wise Latina bringing a slippery slope argument.
There is more than one kind of religion. The Vegan Organic Church of the Carbon Apocalypse is one example.
Secular religions were simply not contemplated at the time of the ratification.
Secular religions were simply not contemplated at the time of the ratification.
Identify for us which definitions of "secular" and "religion" you're using for the two parts of that term. There are multiple of each, and some combinations thereof are inherently contradictory, and therefor meaningless.
I suppose "faith based belief systems that don't posit a God", but instead replace God with the State, perhaps?
I could as easily say your belief in markets is your new religion. But that's not actually how religion works.
'I think you're so wrong I declare your argument to be faith-based' weaponizes a concept by misunderstanding it. It really says a lot about your relationship with faith.
I have a difficult relationship with faith, to be sure. But I don't know what other word would describe anybody who at this point thinks communism could be made to work, for instance.
No, I don't think being very, very, wrong makes you a person of faith.
I suppose "faith based belief systems that don't posit a God", but instead replace God with the State, perhaps?
Maybe that's what he meant (though we can't be sure, since he didn't respond). The problem is that most definitions of "secular" explicitly exclude any "religious" basis, making "secular religion" something of a contradiction in terms.
The context of his letter was opposition to an effort to further support an already "established" Anglican church in Virginia.
Well since every school at that time, public or private, had school prayer then I hardly think that is dispositive.
I'm an atheist, but a lot of sectarian schools do a superior job with straight academics, and I don't attach a minus to religious principles, they don't subtract from a rigorous education, if the religious teachings take, fine, if they don't then no harm done.
Sure, but Maine here isn't funding "teachers of the Christian religion", it's funding teachers of history, math, social studies, who happen to be doing so in a school maintained by a church. I expect the Court would be fine with Maine amending the law to simply provide that the funds could not be used to pay for classes in theology.
So is Marxism a religion, is Social Justice a religion, at least some adherents to these ideologies are as committed to them as a fanatic Islamist or Hard Core Christians. Atheism, seems to have some of the same characteristics of a religion as did Hitlers National Socialism, complete with various rites and ceremonies.
You want to try to differentiate between a religious belief system and a secular belief system? You can't even say that it's a belief in a god or gods as some religions don't really have that concept.
I absolutely agree with your statement, but typically for the court to recognize the ripeness of a case, the harm has to have occurred first rather than be hypothetical. There are exceptions, but they are just that.
Saith Federal Practice and Procedure:
"a claim is not ripe for adjudication if it rests upon contingent future events that may not occur as anticipated, or indeed may not occur at all."
"Are you mildly retarded?"
More likely drug addled.
Actually, lighten up. Frank brings some levity to these angry, stuffy threads.
Sure, but rather narrower than "Some money a state gave to somebody ended up with a church." If the government gives you some money to feed yourself with, and you decide to spend it at a church bake sale, that's not an establishment of religion, but it would be a violation of religious liberty if the government gave you money to feed yourself, and said, "Oh, and you can't spend it at a church bake sale!"
Here the government is giving parents money to spend on their kids' education. The parents chose to obtain that education from a school run by a church. Perfectly the same as the bake sale example.
I think that confuses the issue there, which was that almost all of PP's budget is devoted to abortion. They're basically an abortion service that hands out some birth control pills on the side. They had the opportunity to get the money by disentangling the abortion from the rest of what they did, and declined.
They opposed the bill in general but wanted to wet their beak if it was going to pass.
Anglican Church was dis-established the next year-ish.
"So the bill wasn’t understood as limited to the Anglican Church, right?"
I would say that's wrong. assuming the information provided here is correct, the bill was limited to the established Anglican church.
In the face of a push to include other denominations, they disestablished, ending the tax support of the Anglican church rather than expand the existing tax support to the Presbyterian church.
2 things:
1. Pine nuts and apples? Your comparison is way inapt. Your reaction was more of a knee-jerk than anything else.
2. Regarding the founders - back then, EVERYONE was religious to some extent. Atheists and non-believers like to claim that their view is more valid because they haven't found any proof of the existence of a God. Yet they have as much evidence of their beliefs in general as any Evangelical does of his.
I really love the food stamps analogy, but as DA I would also say it's a little specious. There is a different state interest here which I think the decision and the dissent in this case BOTH recognize: the state has an entirely flippant attitude about where you choose to buy your funnel cakes but in fact does want to make sure your kid is literate and can think algebraically (or at least use spell check, as I just did).
What's problematic about Maine's policy is they are equating education delivered by a religious school with the lack of certain minimum requirements, but decline to articulate what those minimum requirements are.
I think the "put up or shut up" reply to Maine is great, and not necessarily dispositive for either side here. I'd love to see what the requirements and prohibitions are for religious schools and have a good talk about that. Maine says they don't want to have that discussion, that it's not an easy road. I don't blame them, but the difficulty of the conversation is precisely why they need to be specific rather than essentially memorializing "religious association == bad" in law.
So you think the teachers at these private religious schools aren't ministers, and thus aren't covered under the "ministerial exception" of the CRA?
I suspect the schools will disagree, if it ever comes up in court (oddly enough, they never have to tell an employee they're a minister before they wind up in court).
The bootlickers who worship the people of the State(the Federals) are fact-free, evidence-free religious fanatics.
One of the definitions in Miriam Websters:
“a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith”
I’d say it’s a near perfect fit.
He's also wrong about PP's budget, but that's our Brett.
That would solve a lot of problems with the ministerial exception, requiring that the employee know they are ministerial when they are hired, leaving it up to them whether to accept that status.
Yes. It specifically allows for the exercise of religion as long as the state does not establish a religion. It says nothing about funding. Try reading the constitution some day shrike.
Or else in your view the state is funding racial division such as D.C. funding for BLM Street art. Which would violate racial equality unless they allow WLM or Bluejays Matter.
It is a stupid proposition you posit.
And you keep claiming establish means to fund in any manner despite all dictionaries then and now.
It allows individual choice. It isnt difficult.
The pure choice is no state funding for any school.
2. Regarding the founders - back then, EVERYONE was religious to some extent.
A commonplace historical mistake. The founding era was perhaps the least religious in the history of the nation. Religious piety and religious practice have waxed and waned repeatedly, from the early 18th century to the present. They have varied by era and by location.
"What's problematic about Maine's policy is they are equating education delivered by a religious school with the lack of certain minimum requirements, but decline to articulate what those minimum requirements are."
That's the very favorable interpretation. The less favorable interpretation is that the policy is motivated by anti-religious animus.
Why would you consider this without evidence? Lots of other explanations of equal likelihood, but of all of them the persecution one stands out to you.
That's something you bring in from the outside.
Actually, I'm not. PP says that only 3% of their "services" are abortion, but they're being a bit tricky when they say that.
You walk in the door and pick up a pamphlet, that's a "service". You walk in the door and they perform an abortion, that's a "service". The pamphlet costs 25 cents. The abortion costs how much? $1,500? I'm guessing here, but it's a hell of a lot more than a pamphlet.
It's estimated that 12% of the people who go to PP are there to get an abortion. (That's by Politifact defending them!) They might get a pamphlet at the same time, but that doesn't change that most of the MONEY is spent on the abortions. PP reports their activities in terms of "services" instead of "dollars" to obscure that.
You'll notice how Brett offers the conspiracy theory that everyone is lying, but not any facts in support of his claim.
I guess you didn't read what I said?
PP says 3% of their "services" are abortions, and you can confirm that yourself. But they count everything that happens when you interact with them as a "service", whether it's an abortion or picking up a pamphlet.
Here's the WAPO 'fact checker' explaining exactly why that's so misleading. And confirming that PP refuses to give out information that would allow anyone to confirm exactly how much of their budget is devoted to abortion. But it is clearly a LOT higher than 3%, and half is easily plausible.
Nothing about 'You walk in the door and pick up a pamphlet, that's a "service". ' You made that part up.
You want it to be total budget, versus total number of tasks. I think that's the more informative take, yeah.
But you have provided only evidence 3% is low. You said 'almost all of PP's budget is devoted to abortion. They're basically an abortion service that hands out some birth control pills on the side.'
Once again repeating talking points as fact without being able to back them up.
You're too trusting.
You'll find that Planned Parenthood affiliates MUST perform abortions to retain their affiliation. Other services are optional. They've lost chapters over that, that just wanted to provide family planning services.
They're an abortion service that does other stuff on the side, they've made that clear to their affiliates.
"Nothing about 'You walk in the door and pick up a pamphlet, that's a "service". ' You made that part up."
Take it up with the WaPo 'fact checker', then. He seems not to agree with you.
I read the fact check. They talked about medication services; nothing like your pamphlet take.
I gather you're not familiar with hyperbole?
Sure, I don't think they count individual pamphlets. The point is that they count vastly different services, many of which you'd get even if you were there for an abortion, as "services", even though they have wildly different costs, with abortion typically being MUCH more expensive than most of them. This effectively obscures the extent to which abortion actually dominates their efforts.
They're sufficiently determined to use this reporting method that I think it's fair to deduce they want the extent to which abortion dominates their operation to be obscure.
Using a statement in service of positing a coverup means you don't get to walk it back as hyperbole without eviscerating your original thesis.
Why would you say there's no evidence?
They banned the money from going to religious schools, and promulgated no standards that would exclude shitty secular schools. That's certainly consistent with anti-religious animus, but hard to square with a concern for educational quality.
I think to arrive at that conclusion you have to not count Deism as "religion"? You can see from the Declaration of Independence that the founders were quite comfortable with invoking religion. If it had been a particularly areligious era that seems odd.
Faith: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person ("Keep the faith")
Secular:
1a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal
secular concerns
b : not overtly or specifically religious
secular music
c : not ecclesiastical or clerical
Their actions are consistent with animus, and with following current valid legal doctrine.
Or, they chose not to entangle public education with religion, as has been a thing since Lemon.
Or, they chose not to fund things with purposes other than what's our usual (secular) education.
Animus is not ruled out, but a bunch of other explanations suggest themselves as well. What does it tell you that the one you find most appealing is animus?
That is not suggested by the facts any more than the others. It is a choice you made.
"What does it tell you that the one you find most appealing is animus? "
That I'm familiar with the history of, for instance, the Blaine amendments?