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Slippery Slope June: An Introduction to Thinking About Slippery Slope Arguments
[This month, I'm serializing my 2003 Harvard Law Review article, The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope; I'll begin here with a slightly reordered introduction, which generally summarizes my analysis, but if you want more details, you'll get them in later posts.]
Consider one classic slippery slope claim (more shortly on why it makes sense to so label it): the claim that gun registration (A) might lead to gun confiscation (B). (This was written before D.C. v. Heller (2008) held that gun confiscation is unconstitutional; but Heller, which is a 5-4 decision, may be seen as potentially vulnerable to overruling in the future, and in any event may leave room for confiscation of particular categories of weapons.) Setting aside whether we think this slippery slope is likely—and whether it might actually be desirable—it turns out that the slope might happen through many different mechanisms, or combinations of mechanisms:
- Registration may change people's attitudes about the propriety of confiscation, by making them view gun possession not as a right but as a privilege that the government grants and therefore may deny.
- Registration may be seen as a small enough change that people will reasonably ignore it ("I'm too busy to worry about little things like this"), but when aggregated with a sequence of other small changes, registration might ultimately lead to confiscation or something close to it.
- The enactment of registration requirements may create political momentum in favor of gun control supporters, thus making it easier for them to persuade legislators to enact confiscation.
- People who don't own guns are more likely than gun owners to support confiscation. If registration is onerous enough, over time it may discourage some people from buying guns, thus decreasing the fraction of the public that owns guns, decreasing the political power of the gun-owning voting bloc, and therefore increasing the likelihood that confiscation will become politically feasible.
- Registration may lower the cost of confiscation—since the government would know which people's houses to search if the residents don't turn in their guns voluntarily—and thus make confiscation more appealing to some voters.
- Registration may trigger the operation of another legal rule that makes confiscation easier and thus more cost-effective: if guns weren't registered, confiscation would be largely unenforceable, since house-to-house searches to find guns would violate the Fourth Amendment; but if guns are registered some years before confiscation is enacted, the registration database might provide probable cause to search the houses of all registered gun owners.
In the registration-to-confiscation scenario, only the latter two mechanisms seem fairly plausible to me; in other scenarios, others may be more plausible. And there are of course mechanisms that may work in the opposite direction, so that decision A may under some political conditions make decision B less likely. (For instance, gun registration might energize gun-rights groups, and lead them to be even more effective in fighting broader gun controls; or if gun registration seems ineffective or unduly intrusive, some formerly pro-gun-control voters might become more skeptical of gun controls generally.)
But the important point is that being aware of all these phenomena, including the several kinds of slippery slope mechanisms, can help us (as citizens and policymakers) think through all the possible implications of some decision A—and can help us (as advocates) make more concrete and effective arguments for why A would or would not lead to B. Even if you are skeptical of one kind of slippery slope claim, you may find that others are worth considering.
I hope this has sufficiently intrigued you; now, let me explain how I define slippery slope arguments, why I think this definition makes sense, and how I think we can helpfully think about the subject.
Say you are a legislator, a voter, a judge, a commentator, or an advocacy group leader. You need to decide whether to endorse decision A, for instance a partial-birth abortion ban, a limited school choice program, or a gun registration mandate.
You think A might be a fairly good idea on its own, or at least not a very bad one. But you're afraid that A might eventually lead other legislators, voters, or judges to implement policy B, which you strongly oppose—for instance, broader abortion restrictions, an extensive school choice program, or a total gun ban.
What does it make sense for you to do, given your opposition to B, and given your awareness that others in society might not share your views? Should you heed James Madison's admonition that "it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties," and oppose a decision that you might have otherwise supported were it not for your concern about the slippery slope? Or should you accept the immediate benefits of A, and trust that even after A is enacted, B will be avoided?
Slippery slopes are, I will argue, a real cause for concern, as legal thinkers such as Madison, Jackson, Brennan, Harlan, and Black have recognized, and as our own experience at least partly bears out: we can all identify situations where one group's support of a first step A eventually made it easier for others to implement a later step B that might not have happened without A (though we may disagree about exactly which situations exhibit this quality). Such an A may not have logically required the corresponding B, yet for political and psychological reasons, it helped bring B about.
But, as thinkers such as Lincoln, Holmes, and Frankfurter have recognized, slippery slope objections can't always be dispositive. We accept, because we must, some speech restrictions. We accept some searches and seizures. We accept police departments, though creating such a department may lead to arming it, which may lead to some officers being willing to shoot innocent civilians, which may eventually lead to a police state (all of which has happened with the police in some places). Yes, each first step involves risk, but it is often a risk that we need to take.
This need makes many people impatient with slippery slope arguments. The slippery slope argument, opponents suggest, is the claim that "we ought not make a sound decision today, for fear of having to draw a sound distinction tomorrow." To critics of slippery slope arguments, the arguments themselves sound like a slippery slope: if you accept this slippery slope argument, then you'll end up accepting the next one and then the next one until you eventually slip down the slope to rejecting all government power (or all change from the status quo), and thus "break down every useful institution of man."
Exactly why, the critics ask, would accepting (for instance) a restriction on "ideas we hate" "sooner or later" lead to restrictions on "ideas we cherish"? If the legal system is willing to protect the ideas we cherish today, why won't it still protect them tomorrow, even if we ban some other ideas in the meantime? And even if one thinks slippery slopes are possible, what about cases where the slope seems slippery both ways—where both alternative decisions might lead to bad consequences?
My aim here is to analyze how we can sensibly evaluate the risk of slippery slopes, a topic that has been surprisingly underinvestigated. I think the most useful definition of a slippery slope is one that covers all situations where decision A, which you might find appealing (or at least not highly objectionable), ends up materially increasing the probability that others will bring about decision B, which you oppose. {Slippery slope arguments are sometimes made by people who dislike both A and B: the arguer may say "Even if A is good on its own, it might lead to a bad B," while really thinking that A is bad itself. But the argument is framed this way only because the arguer thinks some listeners may like A but oppose B. These listeners need to decide whether to oppose A given the risk that it might lead to B, even if the arguer need not determine this (since he already opposes A).}
If you are faced with the pragmatic question "Does it make sense for me to support A, given that it might lead others to support B?," you should consider all the mechanisms through which A might lead to B, whether they are logical or psychological, judicial or legislative, gradual or sudden. You should consider these mechanisms whether or not you think that A and B are on a continuum where B is in some sense more of A, a condition that would in any event be hard to define precisely. You should think about the entire range of possible ways that A can change the conditions—whether those conditions are public attitudes, political alignments, costs and benefits, or what have you—under which others will consider B.
The slippery slope is a familiar label for many instances of this phenomenon: when someone says "I oppose partial-birth abortion bans because they might lead to broader abortion restrictions," or "I oppose gun registration because it might lead to gun prohibition," the common reaction is "That's a slippery slope argument." But whatever one calls these arguments, the important point is that a person is asking the question "Does it make sense for me to support A, given that it might lead others to support B?," which breaks down into "How much do I like A?," "How much do I dislike B?," and, the focus of this Article, "How likely is A to lead others to support B?" And this last question in turn requires us to ask "What are the mechanisms by which A can lead others to support B?"
These mechanisms will be the focus of this Article. Slippery slopes, camel noses, thin ends of wedges, floodgates, and acorns are metaphors, not analytical tools. The Article aims to describe the real-world paths that the metaphors represent—to provide a framework for analyzing and evaluating slippery slope risks by focusing on the concrete means through which A might possibly help cause B. This analysis should also help people construct slippery slope arguments (and counterarguments); but the primary goal is understanding the means through which slippery slopes may actually operate, and not simply the rhetorical structure of slippery slope arguments.
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Life long 2nd amendment activist here.
Your #5, "Registration may lower the cost of confiscation—since the government would know which people's houses to search if the residents don't turn in their guns voluntarily—and thus make confiscation more appealing to some voters."
Doesn't quite capture the concern. There are a whole constellation of issues here, but the big one is that, post registration, gun confiscation can be quickly implemented while gun controllers have temporary control of government. They wouldn't NEED gun confiscation to be popular, because they could be finished before an election ousted them.
A second big concern is that, once government knows who gun owners are, all sorts of targeted harassment becomes feasible.
Targeted harassment.
Imagine if we had an abortion registry in place before this, eh?
And the government leaked it on the sly, or even just made it a public record. Why, people could end up fired over abortions, or just on account of having donated to pro-choice groups.
There's a lot to be said for transparency in government, but the argument for the citizenry to know what the government is up to does NOT translate over to the government knowing what the citizenry are up to.
You aren't wrong that there's a notion of privacy. Indeed, I'm glad to see conservatives appreciate that issue.
But what you haven't proven is that gun ownership is one of those private acts. I would actually agree that there could be situations where I would be concerned for people who, say, join gun organizations like the NRA. That would be analogous to your hypothetical pro-choice contributor who is afraid the extreme pro-life government tries to go after people for disagreeing with them about abortion.
But owning a gun isn't a private act at all. And the Second Amendment really does contemplate it as a public act- the idea is that all these armed Americans form the militia that the government can call up to defend our liberties. That presupposes that the act of gun ownership is public!
If you read 1A and 2A they are both pretty straight forward and absolute.
What if you had to "register" to exercise free speech? For example many people write/post anonymously. If they were doxed activists would come after them.
Why do we need any more registration than we already have. You can't just buy a gun now without a boatload of paperwork documenting who you are and going through a background check.
Guns aren't speech, and arguing that they are subject to the same rules is a good way to mark yourself as an unserious thinker who has no business opining on the meaning of the Constitution.
And BTW, this principle works both ways- I think you have constitutional right to carry an armament in a library, but you don't have a constitutional right to talk there if the librarian "shhshs" you.
Of course guns aren't speech. Both amendments use the term "shall not be infringed" though.
So if we are on slippery slopes and free speech is also in the sights of many, e.g. hate speech is not free speech, its logical that similar methods could be used to infringe on that right.
Universities already use that tactic by stating you have to pay for all the security to pay for the violent hecklers that may show up.
And you're using it here by not refuting, pretty weak refute, but stating one has no business exercising free speech. Ha thanks for playing and making my point.
Do you have a First Amendment right to violate the rules and talk in a library?
If not, well, there's some balancing going on, now isn't there? Despite "shall not be infringed".
Look, Justices Black and Douglas used to go "no law means no law" in First Amendment cases. But there's a reason the large segment of the legal community that actually has brains think Black and Douglas were being ridiculous.
Rights are not categorical. You have to develop tests for when they are enforceable.
Free speech does not mean you can anywhere and say anything. Libraries are only a semi public place. They are not the town square. Pick something better.
And shall not be infringed means what it says, The folks who see invisible ink stating otherwise may have brains but they are being subversive.
Right to keep and bear arms doesn't mean anywhere and any gun and any person and under any conditions. AK-47's are not shotguns, and gun registration isn't a ban. Pick something better.
"Guns I'd like to ban are different." Yeah, right.
Fully automatic weapons are already illegal. They weren't always. So we're already down that slope, Did you know that? Did you know an AR-15 is not an automatic weapon?
Next according to our leader is 9 mm which is ammo not a weapon but its Joe so? A 22 is Ok but 9 mm is a no according to Joe. 9 mm is the most popular ammunition used in handguns and riffles so that is some infringement and a slide down the slope.
A 22 can definitely be deadly but is not the same as 9 mm or 40 caliber when it comes to personal protection. When your life depends on it pick up the 9 mm or 40. Or as Joe says it will rip you lungs out. Yea thats kind of the point when you need self defense.
Only ones made after 1986.
Yeah, technically they're not even illegal, just severely regulated. You can even legally own new machine guns, but the paperwork and licensing hurdles are horrific. (You basically have to become a manufacturer or importer, for legal purposes.)
"But owning a gun isn't a private act at all."
It's at least as private an act as my attending church, and the government has no business demanding to know my religious denomination or home parish.
Generally speaking, the government has no need to know about my exercise of civil liberties, because it's not supposed to be doing anything based on such knowledge.
Your church is not part of a well regulated militia. As I read the Second Amendment, a state government under any circumstances, and a federal government under certain circumstances, can place every gun owner in America under the command of duly appointed Militia commanders for the defense of the state.
They can't do that with your church.
(I should add, there's a GAPING contradiction between "every able bodied adult is part of the Militia and has the RKBA" and "but the government can't know anything about what guns people have, where they keep them, or who has them", which are both positions PASSIONATELY held by gun enthusiasts.)
At most, the government might demand I prove ownership of a suitable firearm. They have no business demanding any further information, because they have no constitutionally legitimate use for the information.
they have no constitutionally legitimate use for the information
The Constitution does not enact Mr. Brett Bellmore's Social Statics.
Seriously, where in the Constitution does it say that the government has to meet some legitimacy test before it obtains information from its citizens? There are narrower tests that exist- it can only search if the search is reasonable, and it can't ask citizens to incriminate themselves. But short of that, the government can ask you for all sorts of information. Ever read a census form? Or a tax form?
And seriously, the Militia, which is, unlike your made-up right not to give the government information, is ACTUALLY WRITTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION, is a perfectly legitimate reason for the government to know all about your guns. How is it supposed to know how to utilize Brett Bellmore's skills in civil defense if it doesn't know what arms you can bring to the fight?
It does, however, enact the 2nd amendment.
Look, I'm not saying the Constitution mandates that the government not learn about anything it doesn't need to know. I might go so far as to say it prohibits the use of compulsory process to obtain information it doesn't need to know.
But I would certainly assert that it's very bad policy indeed for the government to be collecting information on citizens that it has no legitimate use for, but plenty of illegitimate uses for.
And I'd consider a policy of conscripting known gun owners to be pretty illegitimate.
So the Second Militia Act of 1792 was unconstitutional?
The 2nd militia act of 1792 didn't conscript gun owners. It conscripted every able bodied man in a specific age range, and mandated that they BECOME gun owners.
Your proposal would spare anybody who didn't own a gun, it represents a way of punishing gun ownership.
That's a distinction without a difference. Either way, a conscripted gun owner has no complaint.
Bellmore, why can't the government demand that you confine yourself to a particular type of gun, to promote efficient militia service? Same ammunition, same drills, interchangeable parts, same knowledge base on use and repair. All those present legitimate government interests in detailed gun information, and also an active government role to regulate your gun.
You would be far wiser to fall back on state protections for self-defense gun rights, than to continue to demand a tortured reading of the 2A. That attempt to read the militia clause out of the amendment is a battle you are destined to lose, sooner or later.
Because prohibiting my possessing OTHER guns doesn't promote efficient militia service, so it's beyond the legitimate reach of pro-militia policy.
And because the 2nd amendment is intended to safeguard against a government that wants to discontinue the militia system, and standardizing on a useless gun would be one way to accomplish that purpose.
A government might mandate the ownership of particular books to promote literacy, but never ban books to that end. Same principle.
Read Heller. The militia use is not restrictive in regard to that is your only right to bear arms. You'd have to be really unserious not only in reading comprehension but also intent in 1790 to think the 2A right is just for the militia.
So it would be the only Bill of Rights amendment that restricts the citizen? They all restrict the government followed by 10A which says all else is left to the states or the people.
Condescend much?
Well you're the one somehow equating the only right to own a weapon is the militia. Stop it
I'm not, and you should re-read my comments. There's plenty of nuance in my position and plenty of respect for the right to keep and bear arms (you should note I said you have a right to carry in a library and didn't ask if you were a member of an organized militia before saying that).
The point is, the theory of the Second Amendment is that every able bodied adult is part of the Militia (the same people passed the Second Militia Act of 1792), and they will have the right to keep and bear arms because such a right is necessary to the defense of the state. Maybe that's a bad theory, but that was the framers' theory. It doesn't mean you have to join the National Guard to own a gun, but it does mean that owning a gun is a public act that puts you in the unorganized militia and subject to all the things the government can ask militia members to do.
" and they will have the right to keep and bear arms because such a right is necessary to the defense of the state. "
Nope. Two mistakes.
1) The amendment presumes the right to be preexisting, it doesn't create it, it directs that it not be infringed.
2) The right is NOT asserted to be necessary to the defense of the state. It's asserted that the militia system is necessary to the security of a free state.
Obviously a state can defend itself without a militia. Standing armies clearly work to that end. But the end wasn't defense of the state, it was the security of a free state, and standing armies also clearly work to the end of oppressing your own population. While militias are considered to be less of a threat, because they ARE the population, and will refuse to oppress themselves.
So, they preferred a militia system, not because it was the best way to defend the state, but because it was the way to defend the state that was least threatening to freedom.
Militias are actually sucky for defense of the state, unless that state is under such continual threat that the populace will tolerate regular, intrusive military training. You can't, politically, impose the level of training necessary to make a militia man for man equivalent to a standing army, if the people don't see a need.
But they were willing to take that hit, to avoid having a standing army.
Now, while standing armies are more efficient for defense purposes, the militia system wasn't discontinued because it wasn't effective for defense. It was discontinued because it wasn't very useful for wars of aggression! WE started the war of 1812, and what happened? The militia largely refused to play ball.
And that was one of the reasons the founders had preferred a militia system, they didn't WANT the US to be engaged in wars of aggression.
So the US switched over to a standing army because it was being run by people who wanted a military that was more obedient, but obedient for attack, not defense.
Brett, Art I Section 8 literally grants Congress the power to force you to put down a rebellion against the government. It's fantasyland to think that the reference to the militia and the free state in the 2A is unrelated to that.
Look, I'm pretty familiar with founding era writings on the topic.
They wanted some sort of military force for defense purposes, and to put down insurrections. Of course they did!
A standing army would have served either purpose well, but too well, because it would also be useful for aggression, and to put down righteous insurrections. And remember, this was written by revolutionaries, they knew righteous insurrections were a real thing, and weren't so fatuous as to assume that the government they were creating could never, ever, act so as to inspire one.
The militia system was second best in terms of actual military utility, (They knew that, too, from the recent revolutionary war.) but it had one big advantage: It was presumed loyal to the people, not the government, being the people themselves. And so would refuse to be used for wrongful purposes.
That's why necessary to the security of a "free" state, rather than just the security of "a" state. Because a standing army could be used to render a state unfree, and a militia, arguably, could not.
Look, I'm pretty familiar with founding era writings on the topic.
And whaddya know, they agree with your priors!
What do you know, maybe they're not "priors" but instead subsequents, a result of having actually read founding era sources on the topic.
Brett, the Militia Clause of Art I Section 8 says nothing about the state being "free". Congress can compel you into service to put down the rebellion, and you can't refuse on the ground that "I don't think the state I am defending is free".
Well, technically I could, but if it were just me it would likely go bad for me. OTOH, if it were 70% of the people they tried to conscript, I'd likely be fine.
"Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason?
For if it do prosper, none dare call it treason."
Same principle with the militia refusing to be called out. Better have a lot of company if you refuse that call.
This isn't an issue limited to gun control. Just generally, the more information the government has about citizens, the more potential there is for targeted harassment, either carried out by the government itself, or outsourced to private sector groups.
Just generally, the preservation of liberty and governmental collection of data on citizens has a huge capacity to come into conflict.
They wouldn't NEED gun confiscation to be popular, because they could be finished before an election ousted them.
We do not live in a political thriller. This is not a realistic scenario.
I know plenty of open gun owners. Not a lot of harassment. None, actually. And I live in the very liberal DC metro area.
The America you conjure is much more exciting but also much less realistic than the real one.
It's a perfectly realistic scenario, Sarcastr0. You get to claim it wouldn't happen only because we HAVE denied them the records necessary to pull it off.
You've already seen public maps made available to show where gun owners live.
Which is not the same thing as the scenarios you've spun out.
That's actually a form of the targeted harassment I was talking about.
Brett, even if such harassment exists, it is the First Amendment right of people to express their displeasure, often unpleasantly, with people who make decisions with which they disagree. What do you call the nonstop harassment of abortion providers? Or newspapers publishing the names of people and employment information of people caught up in sex stings?
You may have the right to own a gun; people who don't like guns have the right to let you know they don't like it. It's called the First Amendment.
People have a right to express their displeasure, that doesn't mean the government has to identify for them who they can express it towards.
Remember when the NAACP got an exemption from membership disclosure rules? It was to save their members from the expression of displeasure.
There's a far stronger case for permitting a private organization like the NAACP to keep its records private than there is for government records.
But why shouldn't I have the right to know that my neighbor has in his house a dangerous weapon? I might want to tell my children not to go there. I might want to not go there myself. If the government can require sex offender registration over 25 year old misdemeanor convictions for exposing yourself while intoxicated -- and it can -- then how is this different? In both cases, you are providing the neighbors with information so they can make informed choices about how to protect themselves.
And in any event, there's no right in the actual constitution to preclude the public from knowing you have a gun. Owning a gun isn't expressive association- contributing to the NAACP is.
No, owning a gun is under a different constitutional right the government isn't allowed to infringe. By, for instance, outsourcing the infringement to private nutcases.
If you want you can ask your neighbor if they own a gun, before your children go there, and are perfectly free to respond to a "yes" or refusal to answer.
But, no, no, NO, a thousand times no, you are not entitled to know what your neighbor has in their home. You just aren't. Aren't entitled to know what they eat, what their favorite bedroom activities are, what books are in their library, not ANYTHING.
Get that out of your head right now.
I'm entitled to know what they do that potentially impacts me. Their diet, sex lives and reading habits don't. Their gun ownership might. When was the last time someone used a banned book or Big Mac to shoot up a neighborhood?
NO. YOU. ARE. NOT.
"Potentially" impacts you? Are you for real? Your paranoia does not define the extent of their liberty!
Who knows, maybe they own a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. Or How To Kill, a five volume set. (Amazon doesn't carry it anymore, but you can find used copies.) Does that mean you get to know what's in their library?
You, or rather the police, have a right to know what's in their house just as soon as you have probable cause to believe evidence of a crime is in there, and get a judge to sign off on a warrant. Not one moment before.
Honestly, enough of this pre-crime nonsense.
Your shouting in all caps does not make your weak argument any more persuasive.
Suppose I have a jar containing enough sarin to wipe out half of Orlando. I’m not committing any crimes with it; it’s just peacefully sitting in my garage. If you think that’s no business if my neighbors you’re nuts.
Hm, do I have a constitutional right to own Sarin?
I don't think so. (Which is not to say that the federal government is entitled to ban it. But states certainly can!)
Does Sarin have numerous lawful uses, and is almost always used for them, except in the case of criminals?
I don't think so.
So, lousy analogy. Guns, unlike Sarin, are constitutionally protected AND mostly used legally.
Look, Mr Paranoid, about half the population owns guns, so why don't you just assume your neighbors own them? You're not going to be wrong horribly often, and you don't need to invade their privacy to make assumptions.
No, your neighbor's gun ownership does not impact you any more than their diet, sex lives or the kind of car they drive.
And that last one is the better analogy. Yes, someone could drive their SUV through your front door, killing you and your family. No, that doesn't give you any right to go snooping in their garage.
I agree to some extent. I don't conceal I own a gun and have open carried (it's discrete though) with zero push back or even comment. I live in a purple area. I'm dealing with folks who are generally not activists though.
The publishing incident though attracted a lot of activist who will harass.
Concealed carry reform only caught on in my original home state of Michigan because, even though we were legally open carry, the police in some jurisdictions would claim you were brandishing if your gun was visible, and illegally concealing if your arm swung past the holster. There was no satisfying them.
Concealed carry took away the illegal concealment charge, and left them ignorant of who to accuse of 'brandishing'.
It's not only realistic, it has happened multiple times.
Both the Communist and Nazi regimes that once ruled large parts of Europe did confiscate all privately owned weapons, and to do it they used registration records gathered by the governments that preceded them. This is well known fact.
And it is not at all far-fetched that the present groups who assert a civil right to burn, loot, and murder might lead to a similar regime.
Making policy based on a certainty we're the same as Nazis is not a recipe for good policy.
And it is not at all far-fetched that the present groups who assert a civil right to burn, loot, and murder might lead to a similar regime.
Since those groups don't exist, I remain unmoved.
Making policy based on a certainty that a future government will never be the same as the Nazis is a mistake you only get to make once.
Defensive policymaking is like defensive medicine. It's not good at it's job.
Preventative medicine is actually very good at it's job.
"Preventative", Sarcastro. "Preventative".
No. Defensive.
Your risk mix is not preventative, it is well into defensive land. You are dealing with very low probabilities with high burdens.
You look at the US and see a low risk of tyranny. I guess you look at the last five minutes, or something like that.
I look at a larger swath of history and sample of nations, and conclude that the risk of tyranny is actually fairly high. Tyranny is actually the default state for governments, which it takes considerable effort and vigilance to keep them out of.
In the extremely unlikely event that actual gun confiscation actually passed, I very much doubt the government would go house to house looking for guns, even if it knew where the guns were, It would require far too much manpower and would almost certainly result in people getting killed.
I think the more likely scenario would be that guns would become like illegal drugs -- if you're caught with one, you're going to prison. There would be some effort to target gun suppliers. But if you manage to fly under the radar you'd probably still be able to keep your guns. You might have a hard time finding ammunition since presumably that would be illegal too.
No, I tend to agree, door to door confiscation is less likely than other less confrontational measures.
If the government doesn't know who owns the guns, they're limited to either door to door, or confiscation/punishment as incidentally found. The former is just declaring a civil war, and the latter gives plenty of time to organize the opposition and oust them from office.
But, if they know who owns the guns?
You are listed as owning an AR-15, you haven't turned it in. We won't raid your home, we'll just confiscate your bank account, your tax refund, get you fired, and maybe you'll come crawling to us with that gun when you get hungry enough.
And that can start a week after they feel up for it, and basically be done inside of a year. And the actual compliance is on the part of financial institutions that are mortally vulnerable to governmental ire.
There are two separate issues here. The first is whether it's good policy to confiscate guns. The second is whether the government has the right to expect people to obey the law.
I think the war on drugs is one of the most vile, stupid and reprehensible government policies of all time, and should be ended yesterday. At the same time, anyone who tries smuggling a kilo of opium into the country knows full well what the consequences are if he gets caught, so there's a limit to how much sympathy he gets. And sometimes vigorous enforcement of a bad law helps get it repealed.
They are not separate issues, because there are policies so beyond the pale that the government does not, in fact, have any right to expect people to cooperate with them.
And I suppose you are entitled to your opinion that this policy would be one of them.
As I've said before, I don't favor gun confiscation. But I haven't noticed Japan or Canada became tyrannies when they did.
Just because you leave the door open doesn't mean a burglar is going to walk in that moment. You've merely given up on keeping him out.
But I think Canada is trending that way more and more, witness their reaction to that "Freedom Convoy".
Japan, of course, has had its tyrannical features all along, such as the coerced 'confessions' that drive their criminal conviction rate over 99%.
Look, Brett has now endorsed the logic of substantive due process!
He's endorsed it a lot in this thread.
I've endorsed Nullification, not 'substantive due process'.
And I'm sure you would, too, if pressed. Maybe over different things, but we've all got our lines in the sand, don't we?
There are people on the left wing who hate cars. Do you think if a lefty government gets elected, they will use vehicle registration information to confiscate everyone's car?
There aren't nearly as many people on the left who hate cars as hate guns, and virtually everybody owns a car as an adult, not 1/3-1/2 of the population.
So they have to limit themselves to just making cars extremely expensive by deliberately driving up fuel costs.
There aren't nearly as many people on the left who hate cars as hate guns, and virtually everybody owns a car as an adult, not 1/3-1/2 of the population.
This is a threshold question; you are providing an optimization answer.
I'm answering why the left tries to ban guns, but not cars, though they hate both.
More people on the left hate guns than cars.
More people own cars than guns.
Still no threshold. Without that, you're ipse dixiting that there is some kind of critical mass of support above car bans but below gun bans where these bans are viable.
Which just looks like careful framing to allow you maximum drama without being *too* ridiculous.
It's not going very well.
Has a government enacted mass gun confiscation without first proceeding it with registration?
If the answer is no, then it's reasonable to say that confiscation is not realistic without registration. Given that many gun control advocates and politicians openly state they want to confiscate all firearms, it's only prudent to avoid registration if you don't want them confiscated.
It's only shoddy slippery slope thinking if it doesn't actually happen every time.
7. There is no law enforcement benefit to registration absent a confiscation goal. This is shown clearly by state experiences with registration schemes. The only direct benefit to the government registration without considering the confiscation impacts is taxing gun owners through registration fees.
Bingo! Actually this article could be shortened quite a bit.
1- Registration
2- Confoscation
Confiscation that is
There is no law enforcement benefit to registration absent a confiscation goal. This is shown clearly by state experiences with registration schemes.
You can actually just do a lexus search, of California cases, with the terms "regist!" and "gun or firearm" within some distance between them, and disprove that in 10 seconds.
And that's just REPORTED APPELLATE cases. Our police have solved all sorts of crimes with gun registration. The gun rights movement doesn't have a great record of telling the truth about stuff like this.
Gotta break it to you, but California actually HAS confiscated legally registered firearms.
Mass gun confiscation hasn't happened often in the US, but where it has, it's been reliant on registration.
That's changing the subject. I was addressing the baldfaced lie that the gun rights movement puts out that registration isn't useful in solving crimes.
Well, it isn't. They actually gave up on it for a while in Canada after discovering how useless it was.
Sure, once you've identified a criminal, sometimes you'll find they have registered firearms, but it's incredibly seldom that firearms registration actually identifies a criminal in the first place.
Brett, seriously, there have been hundreds of cases that were solved in part by tracing a firearm back to a registered owner in California. It's not useless and the gun rights movement apparently doesn't want anyone to balance the crime-solving effect against the threat of future confiscation, so they just lie. This isn't the only example of that movement lying, by the way- this is the movement that promoted the scholarship of Mary Rosh.
People v. Franklin, 21 Cal.App.5th 881 (2018): "A gun registered to Franklin's brother was later found in the San Diego harbor. Nine of the casings were matched to it."
People v. Wang, 46 Cal.App.5th 1055 (2020) : "All of the firearms were registered to appellant. All 18 of the cartridge casings recovered, all of the expended bullets, and those bullet fragments not too damaged or small to be analyzed were determined to have been fired from the FNH handgun [registered to appellant]. "
People v. Velasquez, 2002 WL 31895170 (2002): "Later that morning, officers searched defendant's apartment and found a .22 calibre revolver and .22 calibre ammunition in his bedroom. The gun was registered to defendant's uncle. The police arrested defendant that same morning."
These are just from the first ten of the SEVEN HUNDRED FIFTY SIX cases that turn up on Westlaw in response to my search of California appellate cases. It also doesn't include trial court cases.
You guys just say lots of crap that isn't true. I'm broadly sympathetic to the notion that the Constitution requires a right to keep and bear arms, whatever I may think of it. But your movement is up there with the tobacco companies in terms of how much dishonesty shows up in its talking points.
Given the number of cases going through the criminal justice system, "hundreds of cases" IS incredibly seldom! Especially since you're burdening hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands, of innocent people, for every crime you help solve.
Seriously, it would help solve crimes if we all had to have cameras installed in our homes for the convenience of police, or if we had to keep a current house key on file with the local police so they could walk through our homes while we weren't there. We don't do things like that because it's utterly disproportionate in terms of how many people would suffer invasions, compared to the gain.
You're using an "any gain at all" standard, because you don't CARE if gun owners are burdened.
Jesus Brett.
No new golaposts.
My goalpost is no constitutional violations, we're just discussing the pointlessness of engaging in performance art on the far side of the goalpost.
First, you shouldn't reply to a conversation if you're going to change to your own goalposts.
Second, your goalposts suck since they're just 'what Brett fervently believes.'
The irony of how much you yell about how we've become governed by men not laws, when you keep appealing to the authority of this one man who is very sure what the law is.
Your speculation about secret liberal agendas does not change the fact that registration does not infringe anything.
I think Brett is mixing up firearms registration with so-called ballistic fingerprinting, which has proven to be a worthless boondoggle.
No. Ballistic fingerprinting is totally worthless, in it's preemptive form. If you have a gun and bullets that may have been fired from it, and it has not been subsequently fired,, you can establish with reasonable certainty whether or not the bullets were fired from that gun. For that it's quite useful.
It's totally useless in the form of maintaining a registry of ballistic fingerprints to identify a gun not in possession as having fired the bullets, because
1) The ballistic fingerprint changes a bit each time the gun is fired, and radically when it is cleaned. So archived fingerprints are useless.
2) The fingerprint is not terribly distinctive, and so is subject to an absurdly high false positive rate if applied to all the possible guns in a state.
By contrast, gun registration is only very, not totally, useless. It only is useful when,
1) You have the crime gun.
2) It has not changed hands in an undocumented manner.
This does sometimes happen in cases where you have not otherwise identified the criminal, but not terribly often.
It's not totally useless, as has been established over and over again here. But even granting your premises, (2) is wrong. Registration can establish that the gun was stolen, which can be a really important fact in some criminal cases.
You could get THAT by having gun owners record their guns' serial numbers, and require that number be included if the gun is reported stolen. I'm sure you could even come up with an incentive to reporting stolen guns in a timely manner.
What it doesn't remotely require is a central registry of everybody's guns. That has other uses.
"You can actually just do a lexus search, of California cases, with the terms "regist!" and "gun or firearm" within some distance between them, and disprove that in 10 seconds."
I don't have access to Lexus, so I can't.
I would however suggest you are finding prosecutions for failure to register, which is the wrong metric.
What you need to do is look at police files for shootings solved by matching a weapon found at a crime scene to the registration database.
No, you don't get to reject Dilan's facts and replace with your own.
FFS.
What drives me crazy is they won't just say what they actually believe, which is they think this is like the 4th Amendment, where we know it makes it more difficult to catch criminals but it's an important right and worth the cost. That's a totally legitimate argument, and what they actually believe.
But they can't help themselves. They feel compelled to lie in ways that make them look like deranged idiots.
I thought I was pretty explicit in making just exactly that argument.
I just don't think it makes it very much more difficult, because gun registration has pretty limited utility for actually identifying criminals, as opposed to it's normal use of providing an easily proven charge once you've identified one. It doesn't so much solve crimes, as contribute to the piling on process used to coerce plea deals.
1. It definitely does solve some crimes.
2. You denigrate the accumulation of evidence. Gun registration moves some cases from acquittals or hung juries to conviction.
Further, it exonerates some people too. An unreliable eyewitness or some circumstantial evidence points to X but then it turns out that it was suspect Y's gun and X is innocent and not charged.
3. Sometimes the gun itself can lead to another charge, such as if the defendant stole it from the registered owner's house in a burglary.
1. Sure, very few=some.
2. Sure, rarely. I'm not denying this happens, just that it happens often.
3. Once in a while, yeah. But this doesn't require a centralized registry, it just requires that the legal owner record the serial number, so that they can include it when they report the gun as stolen. Something that doesn't involve the risks of gun registration.
Something that doesn't involve the risks of gun registration.
Something that doesn't have all those benefits of gun registration either.
The only "benefit" of gun registration IS confiscation.
*Lexis
Slyfield — There is a militia management benefit. And there is a constrain-rebellious-militias benefit.
"Well-regulated," is founder-speak for under military discipline.
On your 6, you've got things backwards: There's a legal rule against warrant-less searches, registration enables gun controllers to avoid triggering that rule, rather than triggering a rule.
That's not what Prof. Volokh means.
He means let's say in 2050 Congress passes a handgun ban, and the 37 justices on the Supreme Court rule 19-18 that it is constitutional. They ask everyone to turn in their handguns. Some do.
In that situation, isn't "registered handgun + failure to turn it in" probable cause to search?
re: "the common reaction is 'That's a slippery slope argument.'"
My reply would be "Yes it is. So what? 'Slippery slope' is a short-hand for describing expected consequences. It is not a logical fallacy."
Technically it's an informal fallacy if you don't actually demonstrate how you get from point A to point B.
An example of this is the Twitter talk that probably inspired Prof. Volokh to reprise this. "Alito's argument means they are coming after Griswold, Obergefell, Lawrence, and Loving next".
If you just assert that without showing the mechanism by which the Dobbs draft opinion would lead to the overturn of those cases, it's an informal fallacy. On the other hand, an argument that says "if Catherine MacKinnon passes her anti-pornography bill, it will lead to prosecutions of feminist bookstores, because they distribute content that falls within its definition and there are right wing prosecutors who have targeted feminist bookstores in the past", that's NOT an informal fallacy. It states exactly how you think the slippery slope might happen.
But all it is, usually, is a claim that there will be certain consequences.
No real evidence or argument is presented. Most of the time the argument consists of, "There are people who push for B." But so what. There are always people who push for stronger/weaker/more comprehensive/less rigorous rules. If you let their existence stop you from doing something sensible you'll never do anything.
And of course the possibility of an opposite effect is ignored. Maybe a lot of people will be satisfied with A. Not all, of course, but enough that the momentum for B is stopped.
Assumes without evidence that A is "sensible".
"And of course the possibility of an opposite effect is ignored. Maybe a lot of people will be satisfied with A. Not all, of course, but enough that the momentum for B is stopped."
This assumes that A is actually effective in achieving the end on which it was sold. The history of gun control efforts in the US suggests that this outcome is exceedingly unlikely.
The best historical analogy to gun control is bleeding to cure anemia. It didn't work, but they couldn't admit it didn't work, so the only response, unless you escaped their clutches, was to bleed you more.
And then complain of the ensanguinated corpse that you hadn't gotten started bleeding them soon enough to save them.
Matthew,
I am trying to speak in general terms, and not specifically about gun control.
I am trying to think about the general nature of slippery slope arguments, not to make a point about a specific policy area.
Nah. Slippery slope thinking licenses merely rationalistic arguments to override all sorts of practical social realities which will almost certainly determine better outcomes.
If slippery slope arguments get enforced judicially, that can lop big chunks off the liberty of self-government for real. It is not wise to do that on the basis of nothing more substantive than imagined logical steps, deprived of controlling real-world context.
Demands of that sort also ignore the possibility that a slippery slope predicted and realized could be corrected if self-government power has not been too much enervated—as it might be, for instance, by slippery slope arguments.
Slippery slope arguments also tend to empower without accountability whoever is in position to pass on their validity. That is a very bad effect, and usually overlooked.
Most notable recent "slippery slope": how Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea has led to Russia's current invasion of (the rest of) Ukraine. Would be interesting to see how Prof. Volokh's slippery-slope analysis would have worked based on what was known in 2014.
If you regard Democrats as criminals there to steal your guns, then the argument makes perfect sense.
If you allow the criminals to use the instruments of government power to help them case your place and find out what guns you have, it makes it all that much easier for them to steal them. And what reason could the criminals possibly have for wanting to find out about your guns other than to make it easier for them steal?
If you regard Democrats as rational actors with independently legitimate reasons for wanting gun registration. The argument doesn’t make sense.
But people who use slippery slope arguments don’t tend to regard their opponents as rational actors or as people with legitimate cases. They tend to regard them as essentially criminals, baddies who are using fraudulent rational-sounding arguments to dupe people into allowing them into their power so they can have their way with them. Give them an inch, they’ll take you for everything you’ve got.
It happens of course. When real criminals get into political power, they often actually behave this way, moving their victims gradually down a slippery slope. Think of George Orwell’s Animal Farm and how the pigs gradually subvert the other animals and come to dominate them through a process that takes place in small steps over time. It’s such a biting satire because it actually happens. That’s why when the assumptions underlying the slippery slope argument are met, it can be a valid argument.
I regard Democrats as rational actors who happen to be criminals.
By which I mean that, while their choice of means is rational, their goals ARE criminal: A defenseless population, which has no choice but to comply with their orders.
Now, I will admit that they may think of themselves as benign. As Daniel Webster said,
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
I think Democrats mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. And they see privately owned guns as an obstacle to that, chafe at the realization that their are lines they think should be crossed, but don't dare cross so long as Americans are armed.
But, yeah, I think they're rational. They'd be less dangerous if they weren't.
I regard Democrats as rational actors who happen to be criminals.
Jesus Christ. When you're condemning like a third of the population of your country as criminal, you may have gone off the deep end.
The Constitution is the highest law of the land, if you want to violate it, what could you be except a criminal?
You're not king, so disagreeing with your hot ConLaw take is not criminal.
The fact that you think it does make you criminal, makes you delusional about your authority and correctness, it does not make anyone a criminal.
Don't throw around criminal with such a broad brush; it really makes you seem like you're on the road to a bad place. What is the logical upshot of all these criminals running rampant? Doesn't seem like the ballot box!
I'm king of what I regard, though.
You brought up criminals yourself, to create a false dichotomy between "criminals" on the one hand, and "rational people" on the other. But the difference between criminals and law abiding people isn't rationality, it's following rules.
And the Constitution is a set of rules.
I got to thinking about slippery-ness, and what really is slippery-ness? Something is slippery if it lacks friction. When learning about the physics of friction, one is introduced to two different kinds, static friction, i.e. that between non-moving surfaces, and kinetic friction, i.e. between moving surfaces. The two frictions of different in that static friction is a threshold to be overcome, rather than a continuous force. I think this idea is better than that of momentum, because friction better associates with the phenomenon of unstable equilibrium, which is a better description of a ball rolling down a slippery slope.
Static friction, or Stiction, represents the threshold force required to disturb the status quo. Once the status quo is disturbed, the amount of force required to continue moving in a given direction is less than the amount of force required to 'get the ball rolling', as it were
Actually, sometimes static friction is higher, that's the usual case. Sometimes it's lower than dynamic friction, though. That's when things creep.
It’s not “confiscation”. It’s “mandatory buy back”.
How well would Canada’s “mandatory buy back” work without prior registration?
See also NFA items. Machine guns require registration and a tax stamp. But they don’t accept new registrations. So now they are $20k.
Short barreled rifles and suppressors would be FAR more common if registration weren’t such a pain in the ass.
So there is no need for an academic analysis. We have real world examples.