The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Scalia Clerk and A Stevens Clerk from OT 2007 Talk About Heller
"We think it’s clear that every member of the court on which we clerked joined an opinion — either majority or dissent — that agreed that the Constitution leaves elected officials an array of policy options when it comes to gun regulation"
District of Columbia v. Heller was decided during the OT 2007 Term. Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion and Justice John Paul Stevens wrote the principal dissent. In 2019, Justice Stevens wrote an article for the Atlantic charging that Heller was the worst decision of his tenure. And in the essay, he highlighted the role his law clerk, Kate Shaw, played during that case.
Before the argument, I had decided that stare decisis provided a correct and sufficient basis for upholding the challenged gun regulation, but I nonetheless asked my especially competent law clerk, Kate Shaw, to make a thorough study of the merits of the argument that an independent review of the historical materials would lead to the same result. I wanted that specific study to help me decide which argument to feature in my dissent, which I planned to complete and circulate before Scalia completed his opinion for the majority. Shaw convinced me that Miller had been correctly decided; accordingly, I decided to feature both arguments in my dissent, which we were able to circulate on April 28, 2008, five weeks before Scalia circulated the majority opinion on June 2, 2008.
Shaw, now a law professor at Cardozo, wrote an op-ed in the New York Times with John Bash, who clerked for Justice Scalia during OT 2007. I am not aware of any public statement that Justice Scalia made identifying Bash's role in the process. The Op-Ed is titled, "We Clerked for Justices Scalia and Stevens. America Is Getting Heller Wrong." And the authors acknowledge that they had assisted their bosses with their respective opinions:
We each assisted a boss we revered in drafting his opinion, and we're able to acknowledge that work without breaching any confidences. Justice Scalia had a practice of signing one opinion for a clerk each term, which permitted the clerk to disclose having worked on that case, and for John, that was Heller; Justice Stevens noted in his 2019 autobiography, "The Making of a Justice," that Kate was the Heller clerk in his chambers.
It is common for a Supreme Court clerk to disclose that he or she worked on a particular opinion. But the New York Times did not give Shaw and Bash a byline to disclose an anodyne fact. The authors proceed to then discuss the very decision they helped write. Much of the guest essay consists of quoting the opinion itself. Again, any competent Second Amendment scholar can quote from Heller. Their expertise lies, if at all, in what they know about the case from their personal experiences.
Rather, we think it's clear that every member of the court on which we clerked joined an opinion — either majority or dissent — that agreed that the Constitution leaves elected officials an array of policy options when it comes to gun regulation.
It is clear that every member of the Heller majority signed onto the qualifying language that limited the Second Amendment. But did everyone, including Justice Thomas, actually "agree" with that language? Presumably, judges of all stripes sometimes put their name on something they do not fully agree with. We have no idea what the members agreed to. And there is no guarantee they still hold those views, or would sign a similar opinion today. Still, there is at least an implication that this use of "agree" has some greater meaning. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But because Shaw and Bash were behind the curtains, we cannot know what they know.
I have some pause with the notion that law clerks can become the expositors of the opinions they helped draft. Their role lends them a credibility that they should not tread on. The authors admit that their views are not "authoritative."
Justices don't control the way their writings are interpreted by later courts and other institutions; certainly law clerks don't. So we're not asserting that our views on Heller are in any way authoritative. But we know the opinions in the case inside and out.
Of course. But many people know the case inside and out. I've read Heller more times than I can count. The reason the NYT gave Shaw and Bash this byline was because of their personal work.
Moreover, the timing of this piece is even more problematic in light of the leak. At this moment, law clerks should not take any step to publicize their personal roles inside the Court. Do not glamorize the aura of the elite. This op-ed, whether deliberate or not, sets a precedent for the clerks assigned to Dobbs to later interpret that decision.
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Former clerks sometimes talk about the opinions they helped write, and about the interplay between the Justices in the drafting of the opinions, forming coalitions, etc. This has been going on for years.
"I have some pause with the notion that law clerks can become the expositors of the opinions they helped draft. Their role lends them a credibility that they should not tread on."
Seems to me a certain constitutional law professor at the South Texas College of Law Houston is a wee jealous of law clerks.
What do you expect from someone who could never advance past Court of Appeals and whose entire career consists of pontificating about the law not practicing it?
What if the people of a free state decide that school shooters are a far greater practical risk than either tyrannical government or invasion from Canada, and they decide that their right to collective self defense against school shooters includes banning assault weapons? Don't they have the right, as a society, to decide how best to defend themselves? Don't they have the right to decide for themselves which is the greater threat?
Because if the issue is the right to self defense, and it is granted that that includes "the security of a free state," then banning assault weapons could be just as much an act of collective self defense.
KryKry.One has to wonder why deranged people target kids. They haven't done anything to them. Why not target cop conventions or better yet judge conferences?
The answer is, weakness. You want to weaken law abiding citizens by taking assault rifles away and making them weaker.
I thought I saw scholl shooter drills being practiced. You throw everything at the shooter and try to kick his ass. What happened to that idea?
Well for one thing, the "kick their ass" part is for older students. We don't expect an elementary school kid to do anything to a shooter.
Second, the mantra has, for quite a while now (not sure how old it is, but at least to the 2000s) "Run, hide, fight" (in that order). Bringing an improvised weapon to a gun fight is always the last resort, if you can't run or hide.
And that said... even in gun-friendly places, most people don't like it when you carry around a long-arm in public. No... the gun of self defense and stopping mass shooters before they get going, is the hand gun.
I thought I saw vids of little kids throwing food cans at an attacker.
All of it is silly. It is the scumbag, toxic lawyer protecting the client and its income. Kill all the criminals at age 14. We know who they are at age 3. How? They are committing violent crimes form that age. Kindergarten students identified the classmate most likely very accurately. Judges lay a lot of bullshit to coddle them, instead of getting rid of them, and causing lawyer unemployment.
If they decide that, then they can pass a Constitutional amendment stating it.
"People" are distinct from both the Federal and State governments. People refers to all individuals, whether that individuals vote on candidates or that individuals have rights.
When laws are passed & enforced, it's not by the people, its by their representatives in Government. This is an important distinction when interpreting the Constitution.
"Collective self defense" is already provided by the military and militia, not sophistry that redefines "right of the people". A phrase that always refers to rights held by each individual.
Read Stevens dissent on "the People"
Seriously torturing of the english language - Same word means the exact opposite of every other place in the constitution.
Pretty sure you haven't read the dissent then.
I think there is an individual right, but Stevens does a pretty good number on the main opinion's originalist reasoning. No real language torturing, just pointing out that cherry picked anecdotes are not probative.
I have certainly Stevens dissent multiple times.
My point of about Stevens torturing the english language stands
They don't need to pass a constitutional amendment. The Second Amendment, as currently written, permits banning assault weapons for the same set of reasons the First Amendment, as currently written, permits banning child pornography, extortion, and defamation, even though all three are clearly speech.
Child pornography and extortion are always wrong, arms can be used for both good or evil.
That's not the standard. The standard is that the harm that they do outweighs the good that they do. It's a balancing of interests. Who suffers more, the children who are killed by AR-15s if the ban doesn't pass, or the people who can't own AR-15s if the ban does pass?
And one of my primary objections to the absolutist NRA position is that it flatly refuses to look at the interests that other people have; it simply declares that its rights are absolute no matter who gets hurt and how badly. But that's not how constitutional law works. Other people have rights too.
Considering how rare mass killings are by civilians (government, now THEY kill en masse!) it is again no contest.
You are using a tragedy in order to punish innocent people you do not like.
The NRA is far from absolutest and embraces far to many restrictions for me and is too deferential to law enforcement.
It's not about punishing people. If I found out that my neighbor had a nuclear missile on his property, I would want the government to do something about it because living next to a live nuclear missile inherently makes me unsafe. The chances against it going off may be low, but if it does go off the consequences will be catastrophic.
On the other hand, I'm fine with him owning a slingshot.
The AR-15 lies somewhere between the slingshot and the nuclear missile, and reasonable minds can differ about which side of the line it's on. But if a consensus develops that AR-15s are just too dangerous to have out there in the numbers that they are, it would not be an irrational decision. Even if I completely trust you, the mere fact that you own an AR-15 makes me less safe. Someone I don't trust might steal it from you. Some child might somehow get ahold of it. You might have a houseguest who gets drunk and shoots up the neighborhood.
And even if I ultimately were to agree with you that the risks are exaggerated, your absolutist position that nobody else has any rights is just wrong.
You have no "right" to violate the rights of other people and I'm sorry that scares you.
What "might" happen is not a blank check for tyranny. I despise people who punish innocent people and take away their rights, but ultimately coddle the actual people that do evil.
The 1950s/60s was full of this BS and we are seeing a repeat as actual criminals are again being provided a revolving door and people were being dragged from public places and thrown in jail for not wearing masks just one year ago!
NO MORE!
But there is no "right" to own an AR-15. Period, full stop. So if they are banned, none of your rights are being violated.
I'm not required to accept the ludicrous legal positions taken by pro-gun extremists.
"Period, full stop."
Well that clinches it. Period and full stop.
Can't argue with that.
"ludicrous legal positions "
"Common use" is right out of Heller, not by "pro-gun extremists". That means you can't ban the most popular rifle in the US.
Nor 9mm handguns like your boy Biden.
"But there is no "right" to own an AR-15. Period, full stop. So if they are banned, none of your rights are being violated."
Miller is still controlling.
To paraphrase
The 2cnd protects the possession of weapons common to the people and useful in military battle.
Component type rifles is the very definition of a weapon protected under the 2cnd amendment. AND the most common weapon owned.
If it's used criminally the person needs to be tried for the crime,
There is no explicit right to own a "Xerox" brand printer.
There is no explicit right to travel on a "Boeing" brand airplane.
There is no explicit right to eat "McDonald's" brand foods.
But there is most certainly a right to own a printer, travel on airplanes, or eat food.
If the government wants to restrict a specific one, it needs a very good reason for that specific product to be restricted.
If you claim it doesn't, then why can't the government ban all printers just by naming them, or banning the attributes that describe one ("assault weapons")?
Claiming that no right is implicated in the banning of a specific brand of legal product because other brands also exist is a ludicrous position.
"Shall not be infringed" might seem confusing to you but not to me, sorry.
You are wrong.
Blustering, disaffected Second Amendment absolutists offering legal opinions are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Who in particular was "being dragged from public places and thrown in jail for not wearing masks"? Please be specific.
https://nypost.com/2021/04/20/maskless-texas-woman-arrested-at-nordstrom-rack-viral-videokaren-on-steroids-maskless-texas-woman-arrested-at-nordstrom-rack/
https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-woman-arrested-refusing-mask-galveston-bank-bodycam
Neither arrest reported in the linked articles was for failure to wear a mask. The first was for pushing a retail worker, and the second was for criminal trespass.
And yet you likely drive every day, often at highway speeds, and separated from your neighbor traveling in the opposite direction by only a painted double yellow line. And you trust them not to go apeshit and drive headlong into your vehicle.
"The standard is that the harm that they do outweighs the good that they do."
But, what's "they" here? Extortion is basically always wrong, by definition. Child pornography is arguably just squicky where it doesn't involve actual abuse of children, and, let's face it, the laws against it are largely upheld on that basis, not actual harm to real people.
The act you want outlawed, just passively owning sorts of firearms you dislike, relates to murder in the same way "publishing" relates to "extortion", or "photography" relates to "child porn"; Those firearms can be wrongly used, but almost all of them aren't.
" Child pornography is arguably just squicky where it doesn't involve actual abuse of children, and, let's face it, the laws against it are largely upheld on that basis, not actual harm to real people."
This is totally wrong. SCOTUS originally allowed a 1A exemption for child pornography very explicitly on the basis of the harm done to the children used in it's production.
When Congress tried to extend the child porn ban to "virtual" child porn like text stories, drawings, video done with either CGI or young looking adult performers in the late 1990s. it took only a few years to reach SCOTUS and in 2002 or 2003 SCOTUS very explicitly refused to extend the 1A exemption to cover materials not directly connected to actual harm to actual children and overturned the virtual child porn ban.
OK, I guess I missed that development.
Makes it even worse for Krychek, of course, since by analogy he could only ban the 'assault weapons' that actually HAD been used to harm somebody. But he doesn't want a law mandating confiscation of arms used to commit crimes, he wants pre-crime.
I don't think the Constitution requires the state to wait until the damage has been done. I think some pre-emptive locking of the barn door before the horse gets out is permitted.
See, pre-crime! You want to take away exercise of a right because a tiny fraction of the people exercising it might abuse it. Virtually everybody harmed by your exercise would have never done anything wrong.
What right could survive the general application of this sort of reasoning?
Extortion, defamation, perjury, false advertising/fraud - these are all direct harms.
Owning an "assault weapon" - or any other gun - is not.
Do you really not see the difference?
And did you not see my explanation above when DWB said the same thing?
We saw it, and it sucked.
Look, you say the very fact that I own an AR-15 puts you at risk. And I'll grant that there is some truth to that, in the sense that the fact that I even EXIST puts you at risk; You'd be safer if you were the only man on the planet, no?
But let's look at the statistics: Long arms, shotguns and rifles, are the firearms LEAST used in crime. Even if we take every unidentified firearm and assume it's an AR-15, (Which would be silly!) handguns would be much more frequently used in crime.
You're actually going after the LEAST used in crime categories of firearms, first! How is that rational?
Here's how it's rational: It's a slippery slope. If we agree that AR-15's are dangerous enough to ban, we have preemptively lost the argument for resisting bans of firearms in general, because they're all MORE dangerous than AR-15s!
So, if the goal is a ban on ALL guns, it makes perfect sense to target AR-15 style guns. You drive the thin edge of the wedge in, and then the rest of the wedge can widen the crack.
Now, maybe you, personally, don't want to ban all firearms. But you've been listening, uncritically, to people who do have exactly that aim.
Where did you address the difference between a direct harm and a risk? It's possible I missed it, as there are several subthreads here, but I didn't see it in your response 9520256.
I did see you attempted to justify restrictions using your personal fear of potential future outcomes, but nowhere did you address the fact that direct harms are different than potential futures.
You're full of shit. The right to demonstratively burn US flags isn't based on the good they do by burning them.
And what's the reasoning, the logic, behind banning so-called assault weapons? You assert that this is so but don't support it in any way.
See my response to DWB above.
I did just now, and you still haven't made the logical case for banning so-called assault weapons. I say "so-called" because the term is made-up B.S by the gun control lobby. The presence of a flash suppressor, pistol grip, bayonet lug, or any other features of these doesn't make them any more lethal. But that's beside the point, since it is nearly identical to the standard service rifle of the day, it is, according to the constitution and Miller, legal for citizens to own!
"Second Amendment, as currently written, permits banning assault weapons"
Heller says you have a right to weapons in "common use". AR variations are the single best selling rifle. So The Supremes disagre with you.
No matter, you don't have the votes now and you certainly won't come January.
As to the votes, the empire has struck back, but the Jedi will return eventually. This darkness will pass.
You ARE the empire!
The guy trying to stop school shootings is the empire?
The guy using rare school shootings as an excuse to destroy civil liberties is the empire, yes.
I doubt the American mainstream will ever find that line of reasoning as persuasive as an antisocial, autistic misfit does.
The guy who was the Emperor's right hand man murdered all the Jedi younglings.
Not with an AR.
"Heller says you have a right to weapons in "common use"."
Which was Scalia's distortion of Miller: Miller observed that the militia were expected to show up with weapons in common use, and thus had to be entitled to keep and bear arms that were suitable for militia use, so that they'd be common.
Scalia failed to take any account of the fact that nearly 80 years of gun control laws standing Miller on their head had made guns in common use diverge from the military arms Miller said were what people had the right to.
Doesn't matter. "Common use" is still going to protect most weapons from bans.
It matters, because it allows them to stop firearms progress in its tracks, by banning all innovations from the market.
Congress got public buy in for the early laws that banned full automatic guns, and other restrictions. The public is not buying into the phony "assault weapon" silliness.
An AR15 is no more lethal, than any other semi automatic rifle. So it fully contradicts the purpose of the legislation.
Of course, like a good magician, "assault weapon ban" is the movement to divert your attention. Once it is place, Dems will have an epiphany, and see the error of their way and expanded to to all semi automatics and limit shell capacity to 5.
Because according to the constitution, "need" is what triggers the ability to exercise an enumerated right.
Which public? The educated, accomplished, reasoning public residing in modern, successful, high-end communities? Or the . . . other public?
That you so tediously but incessantly provide the unreasoning view is not a public service, Mr. Drivel.
Heller recognized that the Second Amendment does not recognize "a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." 554 U.S. 570, 626 (2008). Laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms are "presumptively lawful regulatory measures." Id., at 627.
Numerous U. S. Courts of Appeals applying Heller have upheld the validity of assault weapons bans against Second Amendment challenges. Heller v. District of Columbia, 670 F.3d 1244 (D.C. Cir. 2011); New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n, Inc. v. Cuomo, 804 F.3d 242 (2d Cir. 2015); Kolbe v. Hogan, 849 F.3d 114 (4th Cir. 2017)(en banc); Worman v. Healey, 922 F.3d 26 (1st Cir. 2019); Friedman v. City of Highland Park, 784 F.3d 406 (7th Cir. 2015), cert denied 577 U.S. 1039 (2015).
All applying the incorrect standard of review. Ask Justice Thomas. Or never mind, wait. He's about to tell you himself in a few days.
Heller did not specify what standard of review applies to statutes affecting Second Amendment rights, other than noting at footnote 27 that rational basis review does not apply. Every Court of Appeals that has considered an assault weapons ban has applied intermediate scrutiny.
Do you think it even a little odd that the 1939 Miller court sought to limit the arms protected by the second amendment to those arms which are part of the ordinary military equipment or as a still earlier TN court wrote: suitable for civilized warfare? And yet in the last week gun grabbers chant endlessly that "weapons of war" have no place in civilian hands?
At one time gun grabbers said 2A had nothing at all to do with self defense, hunting, or sport. Now they say it means nothing more than hunting and self defense, while denying any meaning relating to defense of political rights.
"And real free speech means banning dangerous thoughts, of course."
No, "assault weapons" is made up bullshit, and there is no collective right to "feel safe" or "be defended from someone else by disarming everyone" (even if it worked, which no).
(People can "decide" all sorts of ludicrous nonsense - which "school shooters are a huge practical risk" is, examined rationally - but that doesn't change what the Constitution means.
They can convince the rest of the nation to agree to amendment, not wave their goddamn hands and invent some new "right as a society" to violate the Constitution because of their personal threat analysis.)
I didn't say school shooters are a huge practical risk. I said they were a greater risk than foreign invasion or tyrannical government, which are the two reasons most often cited for private ownership of assault weapons. Which they are.
School shootings happen so often it's hard to keep track of them; Uvalde will be forgotten as soon as the next one comes along. On the other hand, when was the last time Canada or Mexico invaded? Or tyranny rose to levels that justified private citizens taking on the army? If you're worried about threats, worry about the one actually likely to happen.
" I said they were a greater risk than foreign invasion or tyrannical government,"
Then you're not paying attention. Only an infinitesimal fraction of deaths are due to school shootings, and they're not nearly as common as you seem to think.
By contrast, invasion and tyrannical government are major league hitters in the international causes of death competition. So, you think they couldn't happen here?
I can pretty much guarantee that, even in America, more people are dying of wrongful killing by the government than of school shootings. And that's even ignoring BLM's BS, and only counting genuinely wrongful shootings.
And I would take that bet, except we would first have to agree on a clear and unambiguous definition of "wrongful killing by the government."
Someone "woke" would undoubtedly challenge this along the lines of:
"He doesn't think it's wrong to shoot black people!"
To which I'd reply:
"No, he doesn't think it's wrong to shoot black criminals. Neither do I."
The gross violations of individual rights during COVID tells me government tyranny is a MUCH greater threat.
YMMV
The problem though, is that tyranny is largely in the eye of the beholder. If Roe is overturned it really doesn't take much imagination to picture pro-abortion activists deciding Kavanaugh, ACB and Thomas are tyrants and shooting them. You have your ideas of what constitutes tyranny; they have theirs. Who are you to say yours are right and theirs are wrong?
In other words, if that genie ever escapes the bottle and shooting starts up in earnest, you may find that it wasn't such a great idea after all.
"The problem though, is that tyranny is largely in the eye of the beholder."
Indeed it is: like abolishing slavery and ensuring the equality of black Americans, I fully expect Democrats to resist with every fiber of their beings.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance” -- Thomas Jefferson
Name a Democrat within the last fifty years who opposes the equality of black Americans.
Do affirmative action and quotas count?
PS: As you well know THAT battle was won in 64/65 when, over the objections of certain Democrats, the Democrat party joined the Republican party to finally accept equality under the law of black Americans.
"As you well know THAT battle was won in 64/65 when, over the objections of certain Democrats, the Democrat party [sic] joined the Republican party to finally accept equality under the law of black Americans."
I am proud that my party has repudiated a sordid history of oppression of black people. Are you proud of how eagerly your party stepped into the breach? Remember Nixon's Southern Strategy?
George C. Wallace is the godfather of today's Republican Party. In later years, he had the grace to repent of his racism. Modern day Republicans, what with their embrace of the Great Replacement theory, do not.
George C Wallace. Democrat
John C Calhoun is STILL the godfather if the Democrat party -- replace his defenses of slavery and replace the word with "abortion' and he sounds amazingly current!
Nixon was a liberal Republican who enacted the first racial quotas favoring blacks into federal law. There was NO "southern strategy!" NO party switch.
In order to believe such foolishness you'd have to believe after finally achieving the goal of the party's founding they thought: "Hey! Switch!"
BULLSHIT
Wallace's 1968 voters were the target of Nixon's Southern Strategy. Right wing Republicans have been pandering to white racists ever since. There used to be a group of moderate Republicans who provided a hint of counterbalance, but that species has gone extinct.
Well ... Democrats in certain places are telling me that showing up on time, book learning and keeping it in your pants is WYPO S&^$ so ... maybe I spoke too soon????
It's interesting that you have to go back fifty years to make the claim that Democrats are opposed to legal equality for blacks. And that when pressed you immediately changed the subject to white grievance and victimhood.
Yes, 50 years ago the Democratic Party was pretty racist, but if those Dixiecrats came back from the dead, today they'd all be wearing MAGA hats and voting Republican. Because once the Democrats did become the party of racial equality, the racists who used to vote Democrat all started voting Republican.
And in point of fact, the Democrats became the party of racial equality knowing full well it would cost them the South, which it did.
Democrats are not even close to the party of racial equality
"It's interesting that you have to go back fifty years to make the claim that Democrats are opposed to legal equality for blacks."
You only have to go back fifty minutes to make that case; As long as you're demanding racial preferences, you're opposed to legal equality.
"And that when pressed you immediately changed the subject to white grievance and victimhood." Trying to play "white savior" ain't gonna fly with me -- you are either against racial discrimination or you are for it. I have found that peple who support AA, observed to long enough, will eventually out themselves as not truly believing blacks are equal and can compete (or even dominate!) without white guilt BS.
Yes, 50 years ago the Democratic Party was pretty racist, but if those Dixiecrats came back from the dead, today they'd all be wearing MAGA hats and voting Republican.Considering actual white supremacists today feel they have no home and must resort to terrorist terrorist acts belies this lazy and stupid talking point. When those actual Dixiecrats were alive they stayed in the Democrat party almost to a man -- the GOP did not take the South until the 1990s!!!!! I know things are slow down here but let us not be ridiculous.
The Democrat party is IN NO WAY a party of racial equality and apparently never will considering they are now slowly morphing into an anti-White/Anti-Jewish/anti-Western hate group.
I STILL believe that all men are created equal and offer you a chance to abandon the stupid tribal, pseudoscience of "race" and embrace the brotherhood of man.
Unless you are talking about their views on LGBTQAI++, this is silly claim, one that even the NYT has admitted is not true.
The Democrats still controlled the South politically for years after 1964 - look at who the state governors were. Take Alabama as an example: Between 1874 and 2003, it did not elect a single Republican governor. The Democrats controlled the legislature until 2010.
Mississippi was the same: 1992 was the first Republican governor since 1874, and he was replaced by a Democrat after the Democrat controlled legislature broke the electoral tie - and that control extended until 2010.
A bunch of southern politicians - including Democrat reps and governors from Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia - served in the Clinton campaign or administration, clearly showing they had not changed parties.
The Democrats held the South for a full generation and more after the Civil Rights Act. There was no 'switch', as it was new voters that caused the gradual change in party control.
And Toranth, the new Southern Republicans are the old Southern Dixiecrats, just rebranded.
And you guys are just playing bait and switch. DWB started off insinuating that the Democratic Party is racist as in anti-black racist, but I now find that it's really what you consider anti-white racism. You don't care about blacks; stop pulling my leg.
Toranth is correct, it was Bill Clinton's "Gays in the Military" flub that pushed the south into the GOPs hands.
The Dixiecrat party is DEAD -- get over it.
Back when Democrats hated blacks the marriage rate for black folks was HIGHER than white people and since y'all started "caring" we now now over 70% out of wedlock births and whole generations have been kept in dependence.
Perhaps y'all could pull back your "caring" just a tad bit? Thanks!!!!
Signed: by someone who actually cares about ALL people
K2, I said nothing - not a single word - about whether or not modern Democrats were racist, anti-black, anti-white, anti-asian, or anti-vulvan.
All I said was that your misrepresentation of history was incorrect.
I'm sorry that your desire for history to be different isn't working out, but the fact is that the Democrats held the South long after the Civil Rights acts. I'm not the one trying to claim this was because of racism, either, so if you think that anyone winning elections in the South was purely because of racism, it says a lot more about your views than it does about 50 years of real-world politics.
The threat of school shooters is about on a par with that of lightning strikes.
Tyrannical government on the other hand is something that happens all the time.
My difficulty with current 2nd Amendment jurisprudence dismisses the text underlying the other side’s position as mere ignorable surplusage. In my view, no part of the text is surplusage and no part can be ignored.
When the Constitution refers to a “right of the people,” it always refers to an individual right, never a collective one. Rights to “petition their government,” to be “secure in their homes,” etc. make no sense if it is the state and not individuals who possess those rights. So the 2nd Amendment “right of the people” has to be an individual right too.
At the same time, “a well-regulated militia” is not surplusage either. A state has a right not just to have a militia, but to regulate it. And in regulating the militia, while the stste cannot ban people from possessing arms in their homess, it can impose significant limitations. It could, for example, require everybody to get the same kind or one of only a small number of kinds of small arms that it considers suitable for militia use. It could ban possession of heavier or high-magazine guns and require them to be stored in armories. The state’s right to regulate its militia has to be balanced against the individual right to keep and bear arms in such a manner that neither is evicerated or rendered mere preamble or surplussage.
I think Miller, which connects the right to individually possess guns with suitability for use in a well-regulated militia, was correct on this point.
The problem here is that you have to consider the purpose of amendments in the Bill of Rights; It's to foreclose wrongful actions by government, it's not an expression of confidence the government will act rightly. And "infringe" doesn't mean "utterly abolish", you infringe a right when you take the first step against it, not the last.
So, consider how your proposal could be abused to wrongful ends. What might a government that didn't want a free state to be secure do under your proposal, to render the amendment futile?
Define the qualifying arms as rimfire 22 pistols? Or paintball guns, even? Lock that armory of yours in an emergency, so that nobody can get into it, or even feed the contents into a crushing machine?
It's the right to keep and bear, not to theoretically own while the government retains possession. If the government has the gun in its keeping, you're not keeping it, and can't bear it.
There is in my opinion a major misconception of the meaning of " "a Free State" in 2A
Free state refers to a free society, free community, not a government entity.
I think that's equivocal. The community intended is the state, but certainly not that state's government.
Is it so clear that "state" is referring to "state" as in "United States," as opposed to "state" as in "nation-state"? This is a real question, not an argument.
I think "state" as polity. It was a general proposition, stated in general terms.
"A free state" was referring to the community / free society
see NC and virginia proposed amendments
The relevant proposals sent by the Virginia Ratifying
Convention read as follows: “17th, That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated Militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State. That standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the Community will admit; and that in allcases the military should be under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil power.” Elliot
659.
“
Nonsense. States (not the Federal government) might be able require (almost) everyone to own (and train with) certain weapons so that they are more ready to perform as militia, but the right to bear arms is exists independently of militias, as the text of the 2A explicitly acknowledges.
Gandy - my reference to "free state " was in response to the claim that "state " referred to a government entity ie a state government or the federal government.
Slow your role their buddy. The first rule of Volokh Conspiracy is that you do not talk about school shootings. Unless your arguing that the real victim in such an event is the NRA.
Josh is worried this problematically timed op-ed will somehow derail what the Supreme Court is about to do to the minimal policy prescriptions allegedly left standing post-Heller. And he appears concerned about the rising power of law clerks to write opinions in the NYT about opinions they have or *SLIPPERY SLOPE* have not had a role in writing. Because Josh is a silly person and he needs something to write about.
Those are personal remarks. Formulate an argument of fact, of law, of logic for a change of pace.
The court upheld in Euratyt v. Yajaquez that you can kindly GFY.
Could not find it. Can you provide a link? I tried. I am not making you my research assistant.
WOOOSH!!!
Slightly higher class than Sugondese v Bawls, I suppose, but it still adequately demonstrates Otis's inability to argument with Behar.
"independent review of the historical materials"
Kate Shaw had a "Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies and Gender Studies" so obviously well prepared to do historic research on guns and gun rights.
Unlike Antonin Scalia, a trained historian known for his scholarly rigor.
At least Scalia had majored in history.
Compared to Bush he was Edward Gibbons.
I was not aware that Scalia was a "trained historian." I looked through a couple of internet pages (including Wikipedia) and could not find any reference to historian.
As to his "scholarly rigor," he had the conviction of his opinions and that showed up in his scholarly writings and judicial opinions. While teaching in law school and in writing on legal subjects (scholarly or not), I have cited and quoted Scalia a lot, but often that was primarily for the braggadocio, in your face, grab attention quality of what he said (without addressing whether he was right or wrong in any material sense).
Scalia had a history degree from Georgetown. This is mentioned on his Wikipedia page.
That comment was an attempt at sarcasm, which ended up being deeply ironic because of Scalia's undergraduate degree.
Unlike Stevens who denied the existence of any historical record the individual right
See Halbrook
See Joyce Malcom
See Don B Kates
200+ historical citations
https://guncite.com/journals/kmich.html#fn58
The question, of course, is NOT whether "the Constitution leaves elected officials an array of policy options when it comes to gun regulation"
It's what the nature of that array is, for each level of government. Just saying that SOME sort of gun policy is permissible is so vague as to hardly mean anything; You could, after all, say exactly the same of speech regulation.
Stevens page 11 of his dissent -
"...the Amendment’s text does justify a different limitation: the “right to keep and bear arms”protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia."
Striking that those claiming to resolve 2A based on historical writings, yet Stevens makes the aforementioned claim even though there is zero historical evidence for such claim. Further , does anyone seriously believe that would have been zero debate on such a limitation. Basically Stevens is making up the claim
Kind of a contradiction here: He starts from Miller being correctly decided, then arrives at only keeping and bearing in the context of militia service being protected.
But anybody can read Miller for themselves, and see that the question the Miller court claimed was crucial was NOT whether Miller's sawn off shotgun was kept and borne in militia service. Obviously not, he was a bank robber!
No, the Miller Court thought the question was whether sawn off shotguns, as a class of arms, had military utility. Not whether Miller's possession of one did.
concur
Relying on Miller to Ban Scary Guns is incoherent, yes.
Miller's logic was that scary military guns were explicitly protected, right?
Not that that logic ever got applied anywhere else, really.
Miller's logic was that if a gun was good enough for the military, it was good enough for civilians too. And then it ignored the use of short-barreled shotguns by the military (in WW1 trench warfare) in order to uphold a conviction over a short-barreled shotgun.
Relying on a carefully scripted trial in abstensia is a bad idea in any case, and that's what Miller was.
I personally think we dodged a bullet in Miller; The government was going to prevail regardless, it was not long after the 'switch in time', and the Court was out of the business of striking down laws for a while.
Because Miller wasn't represented, the Court could uphold the NFA on the narrowest grounds imaginable: That nobody had given them judicial notice of a fact at least one of them knew from personal experience in the military.
If Miller had been represented, his lawyer would have raised every point, and the Court would have created truly horrific precedents in it's predetermined rejection of them all.
And if the Miller Court had been holding that there is no individual right to bear arms, it would not even have had to look at the nature of the gun.
"But many people know the case inside and out. I've read Heller more times than I can count."
I think this is what so many find frustrating about Professor Blackman's writing: In the end, it always seems to come back to him. That second-to-last line drips with contempt for those who have succeeded where he hasn't.
Maybe he just can't count very high?
How dare someone writing about a topic as an alleged academic expert note that ... they have also got knowledge of the thing, and that having knowledge of the thing is not that exceptional, right?!
"Knowing the case inside and out" is not all that special. It's a famous case that a lot of people have focused closely on.
The clerk was making a claim to authority to convince people of a thesis. it's valid to criticize and undermine claims to authority.
Maybe stop playing armchair psychologist and posting about how much Blackman annoys you for existing?
Next thing you know you'll be Kirkland or Behar or their ilk.
Do you want that? Because this is how you get there.
"how much Blackman annoys you for existing"
I've now re-read my comment a few times, and I'm still not certain I see where I said that.
Anyway, I'm sorry that my comment about a recurring theme in Professor Blackman's writing has upset you.
" Maybe stop playing armchair psychologist "
That anyone would write that in defense of Prof. Blackman -- the Peyton Place columnist of the clingerverse -- is remarkable.
You seem a thoroughgoing dope, Sigivald. A strident advocate for Prof. Blackman and other pathetic warriors for the wrong side of history and the losing side of the culture war. Good luck with fighting for bigotry and superstition as America improves against your wishes.
Fortunately, no present no problem that replacement will not solve.
Poor Professor Blackman -- forever destined to be second-rate: second-rate college, second-rate law school, second-rate clerkships, and second-rate professorship. Still envious that you haven't made the big leagues?
One supposes it could be worse: he could be relegated to posting third-rate pseudonymous comments on Internet blogs, complaining about supposedly second-rate writers.
"Poor Professor Blackman"
Future Judge Blackman laughs at you.
When, in your judgment, will Republicans be willing and able to put a wingnut like Prof. Blackman on the federal bench?
Stevens was wrong about the worst decision of his tenure - that would be Kelo.
Considering how few cases the Court addresses each year, get rid of the clerks. Let the justices do their own damned work.
>get rid of the clerks.
IMHO, the quality of SCOTUS opinions were better before clerks -- or at least more useful to practicing attorneys (vs. academics)
"Let the justices do their own damned work."
Does that entail banning amicus briefs?
Considering how many clerks later become justices, this and the leak provide a clear window into the low character and power-madness of the judges who override the plain meaning of the constitution with their personal beliefs.
Shameful.
Stevens proposed the following Amendment to replace 2A
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed."
Basically he is admitting the actual language of 2a does not support his dissent
Even Stevens knew how stupid it was to claim that being armed while enlisted in the military was a constitutional right, that nobody in their right mind honestly thought the amendment meant that.
I mean, if you take Stevens' reading seriously, the government couldn't turn down anybody who wanted to join the military, it would be a constitutional violation of their right to keep and bear arms!
It takes willful ignorance and an irrational mind to read Stevens' dissent and not recognize that he made Scalia's opinion look like the raving b.s. that it is. Clearly Stevens' proposed change to the Second Amendment is intended to make it simple for those who resist the obvious, namely, that the Second Amendment's got everything to do with militias, and nothing to do with private rights.
The relevant proposals sent by the Virginia Ratifying
Convention read as follows: “17th, That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated Militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State. That standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the Community will admit; and that in allcases the military should be under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil power.” Elliot
659.
According to Stevens logic, and the logic of the anti 2A activists, the modification in the proposed language into the final language of 2A changed the individual right to keep and bear arms to a government imposed limitation -
Simply not logical
I just get that nagging feeling that since the subject of the main clause is "the right of the people..." -just maybe the amendment has something to do with the right of the people.
Concur -
Yet stevens twists the meaning of people in his dissent starting on page 9 through page 11. For Stevens - its opposite day for the people vs the 1st 4th 9th etc
"Shaw convinced me that Miller had been correctly decided..."
This is despite the fact that there was no appearance of any attorney for either of the appellees to argue the law on their behalf to The Supreme Court.
As Justice McReynolds wrote, "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense (citing: Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158).
If counsel for the appellees had appeared and asked the Court to take judicial notice that the Winchester Model 1897 shotgun with a barrel length of 20 inches had been issued and used in combat by The United States since 1899 in the Philipine-American War of 1899, and in World War I, and was still in military service in 1939, I wonder if The Court would have agreed, and if Miller would have been decided very differently. The short barrel length of the Model 1897 made it very useful for close-quarters combat. Would an 18-inch or 17-inch barrel have contributed any less to its usefulness for that purpose? Or does a 17-inch barrel bear a reasonable relationship to a 20-inch barrel?
Perhaps Miller was decided correctly in a technical, procedural sense, based on the appellees' lack of appearance and argument, but there is an obvious factual hole in The Court's opinion that undermined its value as precedent.
See my remark about this above: Miller was shortly after "the switch in time that saved Nine", when the Court just gave up on enforcing limits on federal power for a while as a result of FDR's packing threats.
They WERE going to rule the NFA constitutional, come Hell or high water. The lack of arguments led to their ruling it constitutional on the narrowest grounds possible, resulting in no ugly precedents.
I don't recall in law school, or in my 40-plus years of practicing, ever citing what a law clerk said as persuasive or controlling. So two former law clerks who "revered" their bosses, write an article, and we for some reason are supposed to care what they think? Of course the supplicants serve the NYT's purpose of legislating the 2A out of existence, but that's the extent of it.
You can't distinguish (1) legal authority one might cite as persuasive or controlling in the practice of law from (2) a couple of former law clerks opining about a matter of public concern in the nation's newspaper of record?
Did you attend the same law school as Bob from Ohio? Ohio Northern, I presume?
Carry on, clingers.
I'm sure the CJ would force a decision through that cutting their staff budget was unconstitutional or some shit.
Consistency is not his strong suit.
Constant self-promotion doesn't elevate one from second-rate to first-rate.
It's also something that armed vigilantes would actually make worse.
For the latter, a convincing case can be made that they are doing so as we write this,
If, by "convincing" you mean "Bat-shit crazy" and paranoid.
Well, but I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to defend Scalia. I've often said that Stevens wanted to kill off the 2nd amendment, Scalia was willing to settle for neutering it.
Let me know when you have evidence that 3/4 of the country have read Scalia's opinion and Stevens' dissent. Then we can have this conversation.
Wouldn't actually be hard, he'd just have to claim that having paid staff was part of their compensation package, which can't constitutionally be reduced.
How many dead bodies do you think would start to pile up on the Rio Grande if a bunch of armed vigilantes showed up? It's not like there's no precedent for what happens when armed vigilantes show up.
That might not be the point.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/105721/public-believes-americans-right-own-guns.aspx
Clingers massaging each other with reciprocal citations — often citations in dissent, or even citations involving dissents— do little beyond padding numbers and heartening the clingerverse as the conservatives continue to lose in America. That 140-page (or whatever it is as of this evening) is a flabby joke, at least among Americans who matter.
Blackman is a small-timer. He appears mostly in third-rate contexts. When he is part of mainstream publishing or broadcasting, he is usually the ‘get me a right-wing nut for some quotes from the other side of this story’ guy.
I'm pretty sure, though, that wouldn't make the invasion worse.
Oh, wait... You meant for the invaders!