The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Linda Greenhouse Lives in a Bizarro World on Dobbs
To Greenhouse, overruling Roe is an act of "judicial activism" and "raw power."
I read Linda Greenhouse's latest guest essay about Dobbs so you don't have to. For Greenhouse, overruling Roe is an act of "judicial activism" and "raw power." Of course, Greenhouse is channeling Justice White's dissent that charged the Roe majority with engaging in "raw judicial power." But now, restoring this divisive issue to the political branches is itself activism. Greenhouse is living in a bizarro world where everything is backwards.
Indeed, Greenhouse channels Abraham Lincoln's "House Divided" speech, exactly backwards!
In 13 states, post-Roe anti-abortion laws will spring to life when the 1973 decision is overturned or soon after, and states are, like Oklahoma, passing new laws designed to take advantage of the opening the court is likely about to provide. Does Justice Alito know who said, "I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free"? It was Abraham Lincoln, in his "House Divided" speech of 1858.
Lincoln was well aware of a Supreme Court decision that tried to resolve a contentious issue through judicial fiat. Of course, I speak of Dred Scott. Roe, like Dred Scott before it, asserted the power to unite the nation behind a single position. And Casey purported to "call[] the contending sides of a national controversy to end their national division by accepting a common mandate rooted in the Constitution." These decisions utterly failed in that task. Lincoln understood all-too-well that the unelected judiciary should not be in the position of settling these matters. If our house is divided, five unelected lawyers cannot unite it.
I can do no better than quote from Justice Scalia's Casey dissent:
There is a poignant aspect to today's opinion. Its length, and what might be called its epic tone, suggest that its authors believe they are bringing to an end a troublesome era in the history of our Nation and of our Court. "It is the dimension" of authority, they say, to "cal[l] the contending sides of national controversy to end their national division by accepting a common mandate rooted in the Constitution." Ante, at 867.
There comes vividly to mind a portrait by Emanuel Leutze that hangs in the Harvard Law School: Roger Brooke Taney, painted in 1859, the 82d year of his life, the 24th of his Chief Justiceship, the second after his opinion in Dred Scott. He is all in black, sitting in a shadowed red armchair, left hand resting upon a pad of paper in his lap, right hand hanging limply, almost lifelessly, beside the inner arm of the chair. He sits facing the viewer and staring straight out. There seems to be on his face, and in his deep-set eyes, an expression of profound sadness and disillusionment. Perhaps he always looked that way, even when dwelling upon the happiest of thoughts. But those of us who know how the lustre of his great Chief Justiceship came to be eclipsed by Dred Scott cannot help believing that he had that case--its already apparent consequences for the Court and its soon-to-be-played-out consequences for the Nation--burning on his mind. I expect that two years earlier he, too, had thought himself "call[ing] the contending sides of national controversy to end their national division by accepting a common mandate rooted in the Constitution."
It is no more realistic for us in this litigation, than it was for him in that, to think that an issue of the sort they both involved--an issue involving life and death, freedom and subjugation--can be "speedily and finally settled" by the Supreme Court, as President James Buchanan in his inaugural address said the issue of slavery in the territories would be. See Inaugural Addresses of the Presidents of the United States, S. Doc. No. 101-10, p. 126 (1989). Quite to the contrary, by foreclosing all democratic outlet for the deep passions this issue arouses, by banishing the issue from the political forum that gives all participants, even the losers, the satisfaction of a fair hearing and an honest fight, by continuing the imposition of a rigid national rule instead of allowing for regional differences, the Court merely prolongs and intensifies the anguish.
We should get out of this area, where we have no right to be, and where we do neither ourselves nor the country any good by remaining.
The Court should get out of this area. Lincoln would agree.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
All the governments should get out of this area. Let each individual decide what abortion policy inside his (or her) personal zone of sovereignty shall be.
(My personal zone of sovereignty is the region enclosed by my skin.)
Well put.
Indeed. The laboratories of democracy.
The abortionists had almost 50 years to get an amendment passed to solidify Roe. They never attempted it, because they knew that not only would they be able to get 2/3 of Congress to pass it, there was no way they could get 3/4 of the states to ratify it.
And 2/3 and 75% should be the thresholds for approval of ANY federal law....
…there was no need to, because Roe was controlling?
Laws removing abortion restrictions are relatively uncomplicated. Laws restricting abortion are the messy ones.
* When does life start? When sperm meets egg? When the clump of cells is implanted? When the clump of cells reaches some minimum count or size or weight?
* How do you distinguish spontaneous miscarriages from abortion or negligence? I have read that something like 1/3 of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.
* How do you prevent abortions? Surely, if they are as common as both sides claim, you can't just rely on social pressure; you have to be proactive. Lock up mothers and restrain them until birth? Make them register and monitor their health weekly?
* How do you punish abortions? Surely, if they are as common as both sides claim, you can't use the regular criminal statues, as you would with the murder it surely is equivalent to; you'd have to build ten times, a hundred times as many prisons as we built for the war on drugs, and don't forget there are twice as many criminals (mother and doctor).
I detest laws which can only be enforced rarely and sporadically, such as speeding tickets. Anti-abortion laws are almost as unenforceable, and throwing in extensions like traveling out of state for an abortion just proves hew desperate the anti-abortion crowd is.
* If you allow exceptions for rape, you are punishing the fetus for the crimes of its father. If the rationale is that the rapist should not "profit" from his crime, why do you not extend the abortionality to the children after they are born?
* What counts as rape? If the woman has sex because the guy lies about his potential marriageability, does that turn the consensual sex into rape-by-fraud, and does that mean discovering the fraud after marriage means all the born children are suddenly bastards by rape?
* Incest brings up its own problems. If the mother and father don't repent, do you force an abortion to protect society?
On and on go the problems, which few anti-abortionists are interested in discussing. The pro-abortion crowd refuses to comprehend the anti-abortion argument that abortion is murder. Both sides are so fixated on their side that they have long since lost sight of the basis for their side.
Having said all that, I am not a woman, I don't even identify as one; but I do not know if I could ever go through with an abortion, whether from a broken rubber or rape.
With rare exceptions, those who blather that abortion is murder don´t actually believe that. If they did, they would call for punishing a woman who hires a doctor to abort her fetus as severely as any other murder for hire.
A bill before the legislature in Louisiana that would have effected that penalty went down in flames, mostly at the urging of self-styled ¨right to life¨ advocates. https://abcnews.go.com/US/proposed-louisiana-bill-seeks-criminalize-abortion-charge-women/story?id=84668512
If they actually believed abortion is murder they’d expel known murder encourager Scott DesJarlais from the caucus/party. But alas, he remains in good standing.
This is a bit like a segregationist saying that if people actually genuinely opposed racial discrimination, they’d make it a crime, not a tort. The fact that they compromised and made it a civil matters that they don’t actually seriously oppose it.
Just about anyone can dismiss their opponents by claiming that if they actually took their position seriously, they couldn’t possibly compromise, so the fact they are willing to compromise shows they don’t actually believe what tbey claim to believe.
What makes this different?
You distinguish it the same way you distinguish literally every other crime that has an intent mens rea. It's really not complicated.
"Having said all that, I am not a woman, I don't even identify as one; but I do not know if I could ever go through with an abortion, whether from a broken rubber or rape."
I am also not capable of getting pregnant, so I agree with your circumspectrum on the issue.
But were you to become pregnant (for whatever reason) you might look at the numbers and decide that since childbirth is over ten times more likely to be fatal than getting an abortion. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/).
Or you might decide that carrying the zygote/fetus to term was worth the 10-1 odds of dying in childbirth. Weighing the rights of your unborn child should certainly be part of the calculus.
I'm not going to make that decision for you, and I'm glad that I don't have to. Of course, neither of us ever has to make that decision for ourselves.
There's no way there's 10-1 odds of dying in childbirth. 10 times more likely is *not* 10-1 odds.
The US death rate for moms in childbirth are approx 17 per 100,000, with a very skewing to obese black women and native americans. For otherwise healthy white, hispanic or black women it falls to around 12per 100k.
The reported death rate in childbirth is artificially high since approx 31% of the reported deaths in childbirth occur between one week and 6 weeks after birth and 13% of the reported deaths occur 6 weeks to 12 months after childbirth.
Adjusting the data to make it comparable to European data, and the US death rate in childbirth is comparable to the European death rate in childbirth.
Intelligent Toad - Does the baby have a say in what happens to his or her body?
The right to an abortion was placed before the Court for the first time in 1973. It did what it had to do and decided the issue. It affirmed it in 1992.
To go out of its way to upset those precedents would be a raw exercise of power.
Now do Brown!
Or Dred Scott. Or Slaughterhouse or Plessey.
Or the decisions incorporating the Bill of Rights against the states.
The courts don't legislate, nor do the amend the constitution. So, no.
Roe was a junk decision, and so was Casey. Alito's draft opinion is straight and to the point.
It's also founded upon an ignorant understanding of our country's history and principles. More accurately, it's founded upon his desire to overturn Roe and Casey with rationale only as a secondary consideration.
It's also the first time in our history that SCOTUS has overturned a longstanding precedent to actually diminish civil rights, as opposed to expanding them.
I contend that it greatly protects (not expands) the unborn child's civil rights. And it does not diminish the woman's civil rights, because abortion is not a Constitutional right, except in the fervent imaginations of activist judges of yore.
Whatever the court may say, in real life, inside my body, there are no rights for anyone except me, unless I say there are.
Which is what people said about their plantations, too.
Really? Plantations had slaves actually living inside the master's body. Who knew?
And yet, if someone kills your unborn child in your womb, you would scream "murder," no?
If you kill an inhabitant of another person's womb without permission from the womb-owner, and against her will, then yes, that's murder. But if you kill the same inhabitant of the same womb at the request of the womb-owner, that is righteous, justifiable homicide.
You ask me: why is that killing a righteous, justifiable homicide?
ANSWER: It is a righteous, justifiable homicide because the person you killed was located inside another person's body, and unwelcome there.
That's why.
Body-self-ownership does not need a reason, justification, or basis. Body-self-ownership IS the reason, the justification, and the basis.
So you don't believe courts can enforce any kind of contract, because doing so would violate the person's independence?
Your reasoning might make sense in cases where the chance of pregnancy (i.e. sex) was not assumed, invited, and consented to.
Do you similarly disagree with the laws that require you to use your body to work diligently to provide care for any babies and children that are in your possession? People are locked up all the time for failing to feed their babies or leaving them in a swing until they die from their flesh rotting in their diaper, while the parents are on drugs. Of course, everyone is able to free themselves of this temporary burden in due course. Safe haven laws make it easy. But it's a burden that is imposed nonetheless.
While *your* reasoning might make sense if procreation was the only purpose for having sex, and if contraceptives were also 100% effective.
Publius, I hear you.
Now imagine a different State legislature dominated by, say, Christian Scientists who ban chemotherapy and tumor excision because they are living cells placed there by God, their removal an insult to human life.
What Constitutional right will you assert when a government tells you the tumor must stay?
BTW, have you read the draft opinion? I have. I have found that most people who discuss this haven't, or lie about having read it.
I have read most of it.
Tell me, why should our 'history and tradition' be considered from a time where women were not considered equal citizens at all? Before we even get in to how he got his historical 'facts' wrong, I think that's the first glaring issue of motive-based reasoning that needs to die.
"In a time where white men had decided that women were not citizens, did not have the right to vote, and were not afforded anything remotely resembling 'equal protection,'..."
That's obviously my own quote, but that is the foundation of Alito's bullshit. He might as well say that all civil rights for African-Americans are not rooted in our 'history and tradition' and therefore aren't actually rights they deserve.
Jason - "It's also the first time in our history that SCOTUS has overturned a longstanding precedent to actually diminish civil rights, as opposed to expanding them."
Repealing Roe and Casey Kinda looks like its expanding the civil rights of the baby!
Tell me Joe, what civil rights does a fetus have? It doesn't exist as a person until a birth certificate is issued. At what point do you claim otherwise?
If a fetus is actually a person or a citizen (which the Constitution has rules for and 'fetus' does not qualify), then at what point should we consider all miscarriages to be homicides and investigate them? Can it invoke a First Amendment defense to anything?
Jason - So you are okay with killing the baby since the baby doesnt meet the statutory definition of a person until actually born.
By that standard, it is perfectly legal, perfectly morally okay to kill the baby until the moment of delivery?
What ever it takes for you to sleep at night
Are you going to answer my question or just answer your own questions incorrectly on my behalf?
Or so you believe, based on your presumption that you can infer his rationale. You might do better, doing less of this.
I don't need to infer anything. He wrote out a draft opinion, and his rationale is contained within. I am more than qualified to judge whether his written rationale holds up to scrutiny, or whether his reasoning is tortured and misconstrued in order to accomplish his desired outcome.
West Coast Hotel v. Parrish says hello.
That would be a disagreement about the term 'longstanding.' In my view, considering the time it takes for a case to actually work its way through the court system, 14 years does not qualify.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention however.
" a raw exercise of power."
Like literally every other court decision?
Roe was not a raw exercise of power. The Court was confronted with a new issue. It had to make a decision, and it did.
The judicial system was indeed confronted with a new issue. It indeed had to make a decision. The proper (honest) decision would've been: "There is no constitutional right to abortion. Case dismissed."
And yet, there was a long history and tradition of abortion in the country since the day it was founded. Abortion was considered legal up until "quickening," which is about 16 weeks.
I am a bit surprised that Justice Alito´s draft nowhere cited Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), for the proposition that there is no individual constitutional right to bodily integrity vis-a-vis a state government deciding who does or does not reproduce. After all, forcible sterilization is not mentioned in the Constitution; it must accordingly be left for the states to determine, with such determination being presumptively correct and subjected only to rational basis analysis.
You do realize Roe v. Wade cited Buck v. Bell favorably, don’t you?
And you realize that following Roe v. Wade, courts in forcible sterilization cases used it as support for the continued valudity of forcible sterlization laws?
In Re Moore, for example, the Supreme Court of North Carolina said that Roe v. Wade was completely in alignment with the concept of forcible sterilization. Voluntary abortion is a way of preventing children nobody wants and reducing the burden on the state. Forcible sterilization of the retarded etc. is simply another way of doing that.
https://law.justia.com/cases/north-carolina/supreme-court/1976/72-1-1.html
I was unaware of the cited North Carolina decision, but it illustrates the mischief that flows from denying an individual´s fundamental constitutional right to bodily integrity and personal autonomy. Justice Alito´s draft opinion presupposes the denial of that right, and its application of a presumption of validity, subject only to rational basis review subjects the populace to all manner of governmental interference with individual rights.
Buck v. Bell is an execrable decision, which has never been overruled. Its reasoning should not be emulated.
You know why Buck was cited right? Here, I’ll quote the passage:
“The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 25 S.Ct. 358, 49 L.Ed. 643 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200, 47 S.Ct. 584, 71 L.Ed. 1000 (1927) (sterilization).
We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.”
It’s being cited in support of restrictions on bodily autonomy.
Right. Buck was cited in support of the right of Texas and other states to prohibit abortion after viability.
Indeed. The "right" to an abortion is a complicated topic.
It's always been an odd "right" where you have the "right" to privacy (regarding an abortion) but only up till the 24th week of pregnancy, after which the "right" magically vanishes. Which never made any sense.
It's a topic better decided by the political process. The fiat of Roe v Wade mandated some of the most liberal abortion laws in the known world...at least 24 weeks, but in some states abortion up until birth is still allowed.
Most of the rest of Europe and the civilized world has more reasonable limits. 12 weeks, the first trimester is the limit for an abortion on demand is most common. Returning the moral issue to the people and the legislators is the most appropriate option.
Anything beyond "viability," about 24 weeks, is in conflict with Casey.
Can we PLEASE stop with the MYTH that the rest of the world has stricter abortion policies than we do in USA? Most of the European laws against later abortion have broadly-interpreted "health" exceptions, and in the countries that require doctors to approve abortions, it's easy to find doctors who will (the challenge is to find a doctor who won't). In real life, it's easier to get an abortion in almost any part of Europe (the non-authoritarian parts - so I'm excluding soon-to-be tyrannies like Hungary and Poland) than it is in the deep South of USA. In fact, I can go further: it's easier to get an early second-trimester abortion (13-to-16 weeks) in most of Europe than it is to get a first-trimester abortion (before the beginning of the 13th week) in parts of USA.
That just means that the legislatures wanted reasonable restrictions, and the courts have upheld "mental health" exceptions. Get the courts out of the way.
As for tyrannies, you have it backwards. Those are European countries that ban swastikas or insulting Muslims or homos.
That's actually not true. In many parts of Europe, there are difficulties in finding a doctor who will provide an abortion, leading to many of the same issues (travelling hours to get an abortion) that can be found in the US. Read the NY Times if you don't believe me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/21/world/europe/spain-abortion-doctors.html
In addition, German abortion law requires some explanation.
It's only legal during the 1st trimester, and requires mandatory counseling as well as a 3-day waiting period. It's much stricter than US law. Technically speaking, here's the wording.
"The Constitutional Court decided a year later to maintain its earlier decision that the constitution protected the fetus from the moment of conception, but stated that it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester,[citation needed] provided that the woman had submitted to state-regulated counseling intended to discourage termination and protect fetal life. Parliament passed such a law in 1995"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany#:~:text=Abortion%20in%20Germany%20is%20forbidden,health%20of%20the%20pregnant%20woman.
Health protections for the life of the mom are clearly important -
though with today's medical technology, the actual risk of carrying the child to birth to the mothers life is extremely small.
In other words, with rare exceptions, the "protecting the life of the mother" is a bogus talking point.
Well, those easy to get exceptions he's talking about aren't for the life of the mother. They're for the health of the mother. The next steps are (1) mental health is part of health, (2) depression is a mental issue, (3) unhappiness is a symptom of depression, and (4) the pregnancy is making them unhappy.
Even if the law saws only for the life of the mother, you can just have a check box on the form where it says "This pregnancy is making me suicidal".
The health of the mother is excessively broad, tooth ache, splinter, hang nail etc all qualify as "health of the mother " under that standard.
Squashing a right that women have had for 50 years in order to allow states to deny women control over their own reproduction is judicial activism. Republicans have campaigned on this issue for decades. They pledged they would nominate justices that would over rule Roe. Now they have, and to suddenly pretend that this is some neutral judicial decision is insane.
The denial of rights should never be a "political decision".
You mean like self-defense and the right to keep and bear arms?
It is fascinating how an enumerated right is so much more mutable than one coming out of the shadows.
Firearms for self-defense are not, "enumerated," or mentioned at all in the 2A. The existence of that right was judge created law, founded, if you will, in the penumbras and emanations. That was done in defiance of precedents to the contrary. Justification for that is no stronger than justification for Roe/Casey.
Lathrop, your febrile imagination and utter bullheadedness concerning 2A is a constant source of entertainment. The amendment was not for hunting, decorative display, domestic defense alone, or your in-group's favored mythical 'well-regulated militias.'
Ferrous, you are free to contradict the historical record, but you cannot pretend to be an originalist while you do it.
The 2A begins with a militia clause. Curiously, that dovetails with debates recorded from the Philadelphia Convention, explicitly justifying a militia purpose for the federal government. When folks quote the 2A without the militia clause, that is a tell. It announces they are not serious about history, but quite serious about distorting it. Perhaps you have been listening to them.
Stephen Lathrop
May.25.2022 at 12:54 am
Flag Comment Mute User
'Firearms for self-defense are not, "enumerated," or mentioned at all in the 2A. The existence of that right was judge created law, founded, if you will, in the penumbras and emanations. That was done in defiance of precedents to the contrary"
" the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." No need to mention the "right to self defense" since the right granted in 2A is much broader.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." -- emphasis mine
Is it broader, though? We have the right to bear arms as part of a "well regulated militia" which is a purpose that doesn't include shooting someone in a movie theater because they tossed a bag of popcorn at you.
People always leave out the first part of the amendment that places it within the scope of a "well regulated militia." The right isn't broader than what is stated in plain text.
"We have the right to bear arms as part of a "well regulated militia""
It quite literally does not say that. In fact, the right which is protected states "...the right of the people..." It does not say "the right of militia members" or "the right of the militia" or anything of the sort.
Joe_dallas — My standard for critical thinking begins with ability to answer the question, "How do I know that?" You contend the right granted in the 2A is "much broader," without reference to anything which has to do with the granting, or reference to anything which says how broad.
So I ask you, how do you think you know that? Specifically, I mean. Point to the source of your knowledge. Take it seriously. Find the best evidence, and reject everything which requires you to presume anything else. See where that leads you.
Lathrop -
Try basic grammer
2a does not have language limiting that right
You could also claim the the DIscovery of rights should not be a political decision, but that is what Democrats have made it.
By the way do you support abortion only to eliminate a child of an unwanted sex?
Are you asking (1) whether he agrees with someone making the decision to abort a pregnancy because of the gender, or are you asking (2) whether he agrees that someone who decides to abort a pregnancy because of the gender should be able to do so without facing any coercive interference from any government or from anyone else?
These are two very different questions.
(The right answers are (1) no, and (2) yes.)
Fair enough. Next questions are on free speech and free enterprise.
Now suppose a clinic commercially advertised the following: "Men: Want a son? We offer sex testing and abortion of unwanted females in one visit! Bring your wife M-F 7am-10pm or call 800-NOT-GIRL."
(1) Do you think the government should a ban this advertisement?
(2) Do you think the government has the constitutional authority to ban the advertisement?
Mr Toad,
I disagree. By your answer (20 you condone a hate crime.
That's a strange argument, since you support policies and laws that deny rights. You continue to hyperventilate and misrepresent the facts of the case, as is your wont.
I think the predicate for this switch has been slowly built for a while.
But it is in no way bizarre to call this radical or activist.
Especially with Alito's reasoning and what it does to SDP. I absolutely believe that to be a pretty radical change from the current (muddy, Kennedy-esque) era. And very much Republicans using their current power on the Court to get exactly what they want, with no attempt to moderate it for public consumption.
How soon will it be before Bolling v. Sharpe, 347 U.S. 497 (1954) -- a substantive due process case -- is called into question? Justice Uncle Thomas has recently opined that the de jure segregation at issue in Bolling did not amount to a deprivation of liberty. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-303_6khn.pdf
Ooh, first "Uncle Thomas" spotting of the day!
C'mon, the rest of you leftist bigots, you can't let NG get his racist flag flying out in front like that.
Do you dispute that the justice has made a career out of being an Uncle Tom? My use of the pejorative is not bigotry, but rather is an expression of well-deserved contempt.
Clarence Thomas made his bones as a Republican toady, first to Senator John Danforth and then to President Reagan. His credentials when nominated to SCOTUS were remarkably thin. He is the most prominent beneficiary of affirmative action in American history -- unfit to carry Thurgood Marshall´s briefcase. When his nomination seemed to be in peril, though, he played hell out of the race card. Remember ¨This is a high tech lynching for uppity blacks¨?
Had then-Judge Thomas´s nomination been rejected by the Senate, he would have remained as a life tenured member of the U. S. Court of Appeals for the D. C. Circuit. Nice work if you can get it, and certainly no ¨lynching.¨
Fucking racist. Get the fuck out of here.
No substantive response to anything I have said? Name calling is all you've got?
Why am I unsurprised?
Because you think that using racial slurs toward blacks whose politics you approve is okay. It's not. Come back when you can stop using racial slurs.
Disapprove, damn edit button.
You are at the wrong blog if you don’t like racial slurs. This white, male, right-wing blog regularly publishes vile racial slurs.
Just kidding — but only about the wrong blog part. You’re a clinger. This blog is where you belong.
Because you think that your racist slur is okay
Pot. Kettle. All you have is name calling.
When you openly use racist terms and think it's OK....
You're everything that's wrong with America
Can the racist BULLSHIT
Your use of the epithet absolutely is racist bigotry.
But like many other racists, you try to excuse it.
Far greater credentials that Sotomayer or Jackson
All the left-leaning/progressive canards trotted out, but you forgot to get in that his opinions seem like he copied one of the white justices. And, get your history straight, bigot, after anita hill trotted out her lies, Thomas described the situation as a high tech lynching. He wasn't playing the race card, he was describing the situation, much like now, when a disgusting piece of fecal matter progressive is offended that a minority is not a democrat or progressive. Like you, all the biden-led lynch-mob had was lies and racism with which to smear Thomas.
"I'm justified in being racist because he deserves it" is not the defense you seem to think it is.
In fact, your attempts to "explain" yourself are doing a better job of highlighting your racist bigotry than anything I could have done to bring attention to it.
At the end of it, you disagree with a black man, and so choose to use racial epithets to describe him. You chose that, NG. Just you.
“ Justice Uncle Thomas…”
Don’t have the balls to call him a nigger, eh?
I don''t use the latter pejorative. Do you dispute that Justice Thomas has made a career of being a quintessential Uncle Tom?
Fucking racist. Take your shit somewhere else.
You are conspicuously avoiding the question. Do you dispute that Justice Thomas has made a career of being a quintessential Uncle Tom?
I don't call anyone by any racial slur, whether I agree with their politics or no. You do. Which is why you are a racist. Please go away.
mulched — not guilty is not a racist. Nothing he says implies systematized discrimination against blacks. Instead, he makes an individualized critique of Thomas for personal hypocrisy, and challenges Thomas fans—who he has good reason to believe are also hypocrites—to go on record against their own racist preferences—which he demonstrates by making those hypocrites, including, apparently, you, dodge his challenge. You are not doing well in this one.
Nah. He's using a racial slur. He can take his racist shit elsewhere.
Have you got any criticism of my expression of contempt for Clarence Thomas other than an ipse dixit assertion that it is racist? How is the man not an Uncle Tom? For his entire career he has toadied to white Republicans to the detriment of mainstream black folks.
I challenge you to put some meat on the bones of your name calling.
The phrase "Uncle Tom" is unrelentingly racist. Continued use of it indicates someone's racism.
Ipse dixit now.
Ipse dixit tomorrow.
Ipse dixit FOREVER!!
Multiple posters from across the spectrum have told you that is a derogatory racist term.
Perhaps you could be excused if you said didn't know and apologized.
But since you continue using it, knowing full well that it is an offensive racist term, we can only assume you mean to be racist.
Congratulations lathrop, standing up for racism. Your assertion that it is not is risible, and your defense as to why this is not the case is worse. The fact that you bring up hypocrisy makes it more gobsmacking.
Ferrous, say more. Critique me with specificity, not from some repertoire of all-purpose rhetorical tropes.
"I don''t use the latter pejorative..."
You don't use "Uncle Tom" to any black person's face, either.
Because you don't have the balls. You're just a cowardly little punk.
If your definition of "uncle Tom" is someone who thinks independently - instead of staying on the plantation, - then Yes.
However, anyone who understands constitutional law and who reads his opinions knows Thomas is not an Uncle Tom by any definition
I would strongly dispute that. When has Clarence Thomas ever shown subservience to whites? That you don't like his views, maybe think they're bad for blacks, does not mean he's adopting them to curry favor with whites. (You know he's on the Supreme Court, right? What would be the point, even if that were his inclination? He can't advance any higher than that.)
Hmm . . . a 6-way intersection, all 6 axes far outside the Nieporent neighborhood:
1. Deep South — Deference;
2. Jim Crow era — Deference;
3. Impoverished — Deference;
4. Black — Deference;
5. Catholic — Deference;
6. Conservative — Deference.
A lot of deference baked into that recipe, Nieporent. When has Clarence Thomas ever shown subservience to whites? Probably during his entire life prior to his Supreme Court nomination. How could it have been otherwise?
You don't need to blame Thomas to understand what that situation would demand of anyone in it. You might need first-hand, Deep South, Jim Crow experience to grasp the force of it though. Is it possible your personal history does not furnish optimal insight on this one, Nieporent?
You seem to be unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "subservience."
Also, did you think about what you were saying for even ten seconds? Every black person in the United States, or at least every one south of the Mason Dixon line, was an "Uncle Tom"?
Nieporent, go back again and look at Numbers 1–6. What fraction of blacks in America do you suppose were encompassed by the intersection of those 6 sets? Your instincts are wrong on this, because you have not much first-hand experience with what you are talking about.
If nothing else, saying 'Uncle Thomas' lets conservatives switch to talking about that rather than dealing with the rest of your comment.
Maybe give it a rest.
Bullshit. It's no better than any other racist epithet, but one that left-leaning/progressive in-group members are quite comfortable calling black folks who don't hold the correct viewpoints. I'm not particularly conservative, but I do hate bigots and ignorant, biased in-groups. Thomas may not be perfect, he has endured decades of this shit from your 'team.'
Actually, not_guilty does not speak for the left.
I think you'll find if you talk to actual people - especially actual black people - they are *not* fine with that slur being tossed around.
Not saying my side doesn't have aholes who do that, but beware of the temptation to demonize the opposition by generalizing like that. I don't take the 'Low-IQ Mestizo' racist weirdos on here and nutpick them either.
Those assholes need to fuck off too, but I've got them all on mute so someone else will have to tell them.
I'll observe of the many posters who called NG a racist for using the term, you carefully avoided actually calling him out on it.
When the left avoids actively criticizing its own for racist or antisemetic actions...it just permits it to fester.
I'll observe that I called him an asshole, but you demand I use the Magic Word or else I'm actually defending him.
I agree with those people, but I won't use the word just because you're being an idiot.
Ferrous, look at Nieporent upthread. He tells you what the term means. It refers to a black person subservient to whites, who gets rewarded for that subservience. That is exactly how not guilty used the term.
Most whites who are sensitive to racial issues became reluctant to use, "Uncle Tom," not because it is racist, but because being white, they are not as well positioned to judge that kind of black hypocrisy as a black person might be. Deference to a better-experienced black point of view is not a racist presumption. But neither is it mandatory, or necessary to avoid racism.
On the other hand, plenty of folks who are not sensitive to racial issues—you, for instance—insist that anything which even touches on racial dynamics is inherently racist, because to do that you have to recognize racial categories. That is a racist presumption. Everyone learns from experience about advocacy of that sort. It is intended to shut down discussions which focus on racism, for a purpose to exclude from discussion critiques of a residually racist status quo.
Dobbs is going to be radical in part because of how the current majority got to the place to exercise judicial power in the first place. If the Court wasn’t the product of a minority government using unscrupulous tactics and a dash of bad timing this wouldn’t be on the table at all.
But if you really want to look at the Court’s radicalism you have to look at how screwed up the less well known cases are. Thomas’s footnote about forgiving the State’s forfeiture in Shinn v Ramirez from this week tells us everything. Just pure unadulterated “in group-out group” logic. Procedural Calvin-ball in the service of “finality.” A complete disregard for the truth, consistency, fairness, the concept of the adversarial system generally, and oh yeah human life and dignity. And six people signed onto it without remark.
So if the Supreme Court was correct in holding that a statute requiring a farm owner to allow union organizers onto the farmer’s property a few hours a month violates the takings clause, why wouldn’t a statute requiring a woman to carry a fetus inside her body 24 hours a day for 9 months also violate the takings clause? If states want to force women to carry a fetus to term, perhaps they should be required to pay just compensation for doing so.
Because Human beings are not rutabagas.
Begging the question. So his BL, but you don't meet question begging with question begging.
Sarcasm seems beyond you, ironically.
RE: "Human beings are not rutabagas."
Rutabagas can't be choosers, I suppose.
Bravo!
You deliberately ignore the important point.
However, I'll play. It's closer to an eviction than allowing people onto your land. After all, the fetus is already present, not being allowed into an already private property. And there is precedent that enforcing an eviction that will kill a person is murder. Enforcing an eviction that even might kill someone is murder.
So in the end, for all your framing and pretense, we cycle back to the same, unavoidable question. Is the fetus a separate human being worthy of protection from homicide? There is no getting around that question, there is no objective answer that doesn't rely on personal philosophy, and there is no compromise once that question is answered in either direction.
Short answer: no. A fetus is not a person legally. Even the staunchest anti-choice laws passed in this country do not treat the fetus as a person and a mother who got an abortion as a murderer. When they do, you might have a point. There doesn't seem to be any real political will to pass such a law, probably because that might be a bridge too far even for the white evangelical crowd.
The purpose of anti-abortion laws is to punish women who don't abide by conservative religious morality. It's not about the children that might be born otherwise, you'd already see significant resources available to these mothers and children. Instead, you see conservatives cancelling school lunch programs and other social safety net programs that would help women who struggle to afford their children.
There are fetal homicide laws that DO treat a fetus as a person. So that status isn't as clear cut as you claim.
And yes, if anti-abortion laws were 100% logical, they would treat the mother who chose an abortion as a murderer, just like an abortionist that performed it - but you are also right about the lack of the political will to do so.
However, you then go into fantasy land and making up stories about what "conservative religious morality" would or wouldn't demand. (What is "conservative religious morality", anyway? Is there only one of those, or can there be differing views? Where'd you find the definition you think everyone uses, anyway?)
False and silly hypotheticals about school lunches don't match abortion arguments, in scope, severity, or causes - even if you weren't ascribing made up motives to those you disagree with.
The fact is that a vast majority of people with no religious affiliation support restrictions on abortion. In fact, only activist atheists can scrape up a majority to say that abortion should be have no or very few restrictions. All others - including the agnostics and the apatheists - say there should be.
The place where a desire to get an abortion lies is within the mind of the pregnant person. Always has, always will. Think of it in market terms; one way or another, demand does not go unsatisfied.
The anti-abortion crowd says they've tried to win minds, but they've spent far more time focused on force. Force, as conservatives and libertarians like to say, ultimately always must mean "at the point of a gun".
They may now say that, although we could, we won't point the gun (or the civil lawsuit) at the pregnant (or formerly pregnant) person. But if that doesn't get the results they like, maybe they will. That is just the way force works. When it can be used, it often is or will be.
It would be a lot more work to win minds in order to dry up demand, but they think the better way is to go after supply, with criminal and civil force. That will never work out if there still is demand.
Right. I can´t for the life of me figure out what is ¨pro-life¨ about fomenting a black market for surgical services.
That's like claiming murder prohibitions foment a black market for murder-for-hire.
With a historical case to show it, that might be an interesting argument. History is entirely against it, so it is just foolishness.
History shows that there is a black market for murder-for-hire. It's just that most of the purported vendors seem to be running stings.
Superstitious, bigoted clingers seem to have difficulty managing the concept of judicial activism.
Enjoy your diminishing relevance in the culture war while you still can, clingers.
Or figure a way to reverse the tide of that culture war, by making bigotry, old-timey religion, and backwardness more attractive to modern, improving America.
Linda Greenhouse Lives in a Bizarro World...
You can stop right there.
Yeah. Any literate person would use the correct name, which is "Looking-Glass World".
More fundamentally, the same sort of obsessive religious fundamentalist types who aopposed slavery also tended to be the ones who opposed abortion.
And wife-beating, another practice also deeply rooted in this nation’s history and tradition of choice that also got abolished in the late 19th century (20th in some states) by more or less the same sorts of people.
Not to mention alcohol…
Maybe she’s just channeling her inner conservative and using “judicial activism” as a synonym for “any ruling I don’t like.” How many right wingers called the court’s decision to *not* strike down the ACA mandate an act of “judicial activism”? I’d be very surprised if Blackman himself did not do so.
Rewriting a shared individual responsibility penalty mandate into a tax exemption was a legislative act masquerading as gross judicial activism.
The court did not rewrite the mandate, it sustained it as written by Congress. It may have done so on grounds with which you disagree, but upholding a law duly passed by the political branches is an act of judicial restraint, not activism.
"...by foreclosing all democratic outlet for the deep passions this issue arouses, by banishing the issue from the political forum that gives all participants, even the losers, the satisfaction of a fair hearing and an honest fight, by continuing the imposition of a rigid national rule instead of allowing for regional differences, the Court merely prolongs and intensifies the anguish."
Remember when Scalia voted to uphold Texas's law against flag-burning in order to allow the political process to sort the issue out? To allow for regional differences? Wait, he didn't do that?! It's almost as if he is not as principled as Blackman makes him appear. For that matter, it's almost as if Blackman is not as principled as he makes himself appear.
You're a moron. Flag-burning is constitutionally-protected activity (see 1st Amendment). Abortion is not. Scalia was indeed principled, and the flag-burning case is a great example of that. Scalia actually talked about how he found the act despicable, but felt he had no choice but to strike down the criminal statute (because the activity was clearly constitutionally-protected).
You're a moron. Flag-burning is constitutionally-protected activity (see 1st Amendment). Abortion is not.
I'm not seeing in the text of the 1st Amendment where it protects a right to burn flags. What Constitution are you looking at?
It is almost as if the Supreme Court justices that ruled that burning a flag as a political message is implied by the rights explicitly guaranteed by the text. Nah, that can't be right, because then that would mean that Justices get to expand rights beyond what the literal meaning of the text would be.
"imposition of rigid national rule instead of allowing for regional differences..."
The Republican states are already gearing up to make their state laws go national. Sorry Mr Blackman, you are incredibly naive to think that this is nothing other than a raw exercise of political power. Alitos opinion turns on a priviledged assessment of what was supposedly a consensus view of the "Nations history and traditions". Except those traditions did not exist. And even if so, why privilege lifestyles that existed 300 years ago? Slavery was one those issues and guess what, Dred Scott got it wrong because Taney considered tradition and history as well. The founders did not think to end slavery and so why should the court do so? Even when the founders themselves admitted that the institution of slavery was anathema to the countries ideals, it was considered practical politics and economics to keep the institution legal. The judges now sitting on the current Supreme court were picked by the Federalist Society to break down precedent and return the US to sometime in the distant past. Practical politics drives this decision as well, much to this countries demise.
Should a person who accepted WIC subsidies while gestating a "clump of cells" be required to repay those subsidies upon "aborting" said gestation? Are WIC subsidies simply reparations for being delightfully impregnated by a man?
When does a Saturn IV vehicle become a rocket? Is it at T-8.9, when its engines fire? Or once it has burned pounds of fuel? Or later, when all of its umbilicals are disconnected? Or even later, when the holding clamps are released? Or still later, when it clears the tower? [How many years did it take for the New York Times to admit a rocket could fly in space? And how many years after that before the Greyed Bitch asked the forgiveness of Robert Goddard?]
Democrats would do well to act now, and bring to the floor of both houses a federal bill to protect access to contraception nationwide. Right after it fails to pass, the fools can shut up who insist Alito and his pranksters are not coming for contraception next.
Right. Many folks falsely claim that some contraceptive methods, such as an IUD or Plan B medication, are abortifacients. See, e.g, Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc., 573 U.S. 682 (2014). It is not far fetched to envision a state legislature pandering to those folks to outlaw those forms of contraception. A challenge to any such legislation could afford SCOTUS an opportunity to revisit Griswold v. Connecticut.
With at least five justices taking Eric Rudolph's side of the culture wars, the right to privacy recognized in Griswold and Eisenstadt v. Baird is at serious risk.
I'm pro-choice but "falsely" here seems inaccurate. IUDs, for example, prevent implantation but not fertilization. Since some folks think it's a "person" at fertilization, an IUD would effectively be an abortifacient from that perspective. I don't agreed with their perspective, but at least they're being consistent.
IUDs almost entirely prevent fertilization, not implantation.
Every time that I have looked up what the medical research says, it comes down on the side that Plan B and IUD's work to prevent ovulation in the first place. For instance, from the Mayo Clinic:
"Mirena is a hormonal intrauterine device (IUD) that can provide long-term birth control (contraception).
The device is a T-shaped plastic frame that's inserted into the uterus, where it releases a type of the hormone progestin. To prevent pregnancy, Mirena:
- Thickens mucus in the cervix to stop sperm from reaching or fertilizing an egg
- Thins the lining of the uterus and partially suppresses ovulation
Mirena prevents pregnancy for up to five years after insertion. It's one of several hormonal IUDs with Food and Drug Administration approval."
The Hobby Lobby side of this that considers them to be abortifacients is pinning all of this on the possibility that they might also impair implantation, but I have yet to see any credible research that backs that up.
lack of edit - I meant to say "work to prevent fertilization in the first place", which preventing sperm from reaching an egg or preventing ovulation would accomplish.
Republicans would do well to act now, and bring to the floor of both houses a federal bill to protect access to handguns, shotguns and non-AR centerfire rifles.
Right after it fails to pass, the fools can shut up who insist that the Democrats are not coming for all of your guns.
Which enumerated power delegates to Congress the ability to do this?
In one respect, I will disagree with Justice Scalia: there is a place for the court to rule on the legal recognition of personhood. Upon this one point all other questions related to abortion can be resolved.
All children intentionally born, even those born very prematurely, are legally considered persons. There is no question that the law recognizes them as such, and the court extends its full protections towards them.
But children intentionally aborted are not legally recognized as persons. At best the law only recognizes their potential to be persons. At worst, the law does not recognize them as anything at all, right up to the moment of birth.
This is THE point of contention in this debate. It is fruitless to talk about the rights of anyone already recognized under the law, such as the mother and father and their children already born. Those rights are not in dispute.
Is the product of human conception a human being, or not? That is the question.
The problem with Roe and friends is that they do not answer this question at all. Instead they offer this weirdly unscientific and impractical scheme to permit abortion, and cover over their neglect with a lot of talk about issues not under dispute such as privacy.
concur
It's not weirdly unscientific. This is not a question of science. It is a question of morality.
Which is why leaving the question to the individual and not the state is the libertarian and correct answer.
Sarcastr0
May.25.2022 at 8:34 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"It's not weirdly unscientific. This is not a question of science. It is a question of morality."
Absolutely a question of morality
Though the pro abortion crowd opposed the death penalty for those guilty of murder, yet embrace the murder of the innocent.
At the same time, they demand pain free execution of those guilty of murder yet, have no qualms about the pain experienced by young babies/fetuses - See Baze
So a question of morality that you've answered on behalf of everyone.
Nice hubris.
Sarcastr0
May.25.2022 at 10:27 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"So a question of morality that you've answered on behalf of everyone.
Nice hubris."
Morality - if thats what it takes for you to sleep at night.
Joe_dallas - "Absolutely a question of morality|
Joe_dallas - "Morality - if thats what it takes for you to sleep at night."
You are directly contradicting yourself. What are you trying to say?
It's a question of morality, just as all laws are.
But questions of morality are informed by science. For example, the question of whether the being in the womb is a living human being, is a scientific question. Scientific advancements over the last 50 years are particularly relevant to the abortion issue, as so much more is now known and can be seen regarding to fetal development.
No - most laws are a question of order and utility.
What the heck law school did you go to? No law and economics? No critical theory? No history in your property class?
Were you taught contracts law was created to keep people moral?
What postmodernist nonsense.
No, it's very obvious that all laws are premised on some moral value judgment. Order and utility are perfect examples. Utility toward what end? Order at what cost? There are value judgments made in any trade-off. Just because some of the easier ones might seem quite uncontroversial, doesn't mean they aren't there.
"This is not a question of science. It is a question of morality."
I'll disagree. Personhood before the law for purposes of rights is purely a legal question.
It cannot be answered via purely legal means.
The question is not asked because it has been answered - differently at different times. For instance, the Catholic Churchs stance on abortion has changed radically over the centuries. Abortion was never considered murder or even much a sin if occurring before the first 90 days. Why? Because the fetus was not a person. After that al, "ensoulment" took place. Since Pope Pius in the mid 19th century, the Catholic Churchs position now contends that conception creates the person and the soul. You can go no farther back on the timeline than that. Of course they have to contend with a poorly constructed process whereby those embryos\persons\Souls fail to implant or otherwise are still birthed. That number is from 10 - 20% of all conceptions. God has made a perfectly poor process for creating souls and people. And lets not even get into IVF.
The question to answer is what is viability. On that point, the anti-abortion lobby wishes to push back the notion of physical personhood to some early physical sign: and on that score in the old days it was the "quickening" when the fetus spontaneously moved at around 14 - 20 weeks. Now with more sensitive echo cardiograms, it is the heartbeat. And that from a cluster of cells in an embryo without a definable heart.
Roe, Casey et al did not admit to these kinds of spiritual or physical distinctions and for good reason. Viability is a secular method to deduce when abortion can be criminalized. But frankly neither case got the viability answer right. What is viability? When the conceived embryo can reasonably be expected to survive a natural birth without invasive medical intervention. If it cannot survive, it is an embryo, if it can survive it is no longer a embryo, it is a fetus soon to be a viable person.
Actually Roe did decide whether the unborn human is a person. They affirmatively decided that no unborn human is a "person" for purposes of the US Constitution.
"Is the product of human conception a human being, or not? That is the question."
No, that's a different question, and the answer is not debatable. A fetus is a living human being. That is a, indisputable scientific fact.
A "person" simply means an entity that has legal rights. So it is circular to say that abortion should be legal because the unborn human is not a person, or that abortion should be illegal because the unborn human is a person. They mean the same thing in this context.
You have a pretty pinched reading of Roe.
It explicitly did not concede the binary you insist on.
How can you be this dense?
Roe, after discussing whether an unborn human is a person, and noting that is a central issue in the case, and was briefed by both parties:
"All this . . . persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn."
In one respect, I will disagree with Justice Scalia: there is a place for the court to rule on the legal recognition of personhood. Upon this one point all other questions related to abortion can be resolved.
I am trying imagine the judicial process that implies, without much luck. What evidence, should which parties, bring to the court, using what arguments, to prove a case on either side? Would your sense of that process empower a court to rule on the basis of evidence incapable of resolving the question as a matter of science, or as a matter of social consensus?
What about when the fetus can feel pain - not withstanding the faux concern expressed by ginsburg in baze
A breaking new study has found that preborn babies in the first trimester have “adult-like” patterns of nerves. Researchers “combined whole-mount immunostaining, 3DISCO clearing, and light-sheet imaging to start building a 3D cellular map” and found that “the adult-like pattern of skin innervation is established before the end of the first trimester, showing important intra- and inter-individual variations in nerve branches.” They also found evidence for “a differential vascularization of the male and female genital tracts concomitant with sex determination.” The full study can be seen here.
For now, it’s almost conclusively provable that preborn babies can feel pain at 20 weeks gestation, although they respond to touch as early as eight weeks. There is also increasing evidence that preborn babies can feel pain much earlier than 20 weeks — possibly as early as five weeks. Some evidence exists to show that fetal pain may be even worse in the first trimester, “due to the uneven maturation of fetal neurophysiology.”
Now do pigs.
This is the logic of militant vegans. Emotionalism, cloaked in medical science.
I'm with Sarcastr0 on this. You entirely dodge the question of what makes human life sacred whereas the lives of other animals are not. Whether a fetus or embryo responds to external stimuli tells us nothing about that.
In quibbling with Greenhouse's use of the house divided speech and declaring she lives in a "Bizarro World," you avoid addressing the 13th Amendment argument she presented when she used this.
You also may have noticed that she said that the doctrine advanced by St. Antonin and the current six conservatives "may not be the framers’ but the bishops’."
Is the result suggested in the draft Dobbs opinion really that of the constitution or that of religious doctrine?