The Volokh Conspiracy
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Mainstream Political Argument Forbidden "in the Modern Public Square" of Facebook
Sen. Marsha Blackburn's "Biological men have no place in women's sports" post was apparently blocked as "hate speech."
So reports Fox News (Kyle Morris); it's of course possible that there's some error in the reporting, but the screenshot (borrowed from a New York Post reprint of the Fox News account) seems to corroborate it:
Naturally, such blocking doesn't violate the First Amendment (which governs only governmental speech restrictions) or any federal law; and, to my knowledge, it wouldn't violate any state social media nondiscrimination rules, even apart from the question whether those rules are constitutional or preempted by 47 U.S.C. § 230: The Florida and Texas laws, for instance, seem to me to cover only material posted by residents of those states.
Nonetheless, I don't think it's good for democracy that platforms with the reach and importance of Facebook (which the Supreme Court has characterized as "the modern public square") would purport to thus restrict the expression of opinions.
And that's especially so given how mainstream the opinion is: A Gallup poll from May 2021, for instance, reports that 62% of U.S. adult respondents took the view that "transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that match their birth gender" (34% took the view that they "should be able to play on sports teams that match their current gender identity"). I realize that these measurements are always imprecise, and sensitive to the details of the question. But it seems pretty clear that this isn't some marginal, "extremist" view.
Of course, there's much to be said for the position that even views held by a small minority still need to be expressible in such places—including privately owned places that are so central to modern speech—for public debate to properly function. But at least if Facebook blocks the Nazis or the Communists, the immediate practical effect will be limited, because those views aren't major players in American public debate in any event. (Thankfully, "should we bring back the Holocaust?" or "should we have a violent Communist revolution?" aren't major topics in current American debate.)
Here, though, no-one can claim that somehow the judgment of history has been rendered and that nothing would be practically lost to public debate if a few extremists can't express their views. Nor can one argue that this is just a matter of medical consensus or of factual disinformation (though again I'd be skeptical of even those bases for restriction).
Rather, Facebook appears to be trying to suppress an important normative position on a live political issue—a view expressed by major elected politicians about what policies our democratic process should adopt. Again, not good for Facebook to try control public debate this way, it seems to me.
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Mainstream or not, that seems like one of those survey responses that, in a few years, very few people can remember having given. (In the same way that few people today recall ever having opposed same-sex marriage.)
Again, the lawyer is in denial. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck.
Facebook is a utility. It has governmental immunity , and is therefeore an agent of government. It is not only a utility, it is a quasi-governmental organization. It should be fully subject to the Free Speech Clause.
Facebook is definitionally not a utility, and utilities are not agents of government anyway.
You are in denial, as you are about how much your profession sucks. Every self stated goal of every law subject is in utter failure. Your only success is to take our $trillion a year, and to return nothing of value. You need to STFU.
public utility
n. any organization which provides services to the general public, although it may be privately owned. Public utilities include electric, gas, telephone, water, and television cable systems, as well as streetcar and bus lines. They are allowed certain monopoly rights due to the practical need to service entire geographic areas with one system, but they are regulated by state, county and/or city public utility commissions under state laws. (See: monopoly)
David, 135 times the Supreme Court has said, the meaning of a word is its dictionary definition.
Hi Daivd. Here is the definition of "general public" from Merriam-Webster.com: "all the people of an area, country, etc. "
What other utility has 3 billion users than Facebook? Not many. Half are not human, but still, this company qualifes as a utility.
Social media companies do not provide services to the general public. They provide services only to people who sign up and agree to their terms of service. And, of course, they do not have monopoly rights.
That amounts to 3 billion accounts more than any other utility. People use usecas a phone to get news to stay in touch. Those are essential utility services. You are a left wing denier. You are a denier about the failure of the lawyer profession too.
Beyond its evident utility nature, Facebook is a crimonal enterprise. Millions of internet crimes are committed on its platform. It itself commits crimes by defrauding advertisers with inflated viewerships. It should be seized in civil forfeiture.
Trump should fire the entire DOJ in 2025. Teplace them with loyal Americans who will enforce the laws against fraud.
David. All your points are true of the electric company, of cable, of the phone companies. Yet, all those are utilities.
Many traditional utilities also provide services only to their subscribers, not the general public. It is true that in most cases, one utility may service an area of residences, and another a different area, and so it isn't easily possible for a member of the public to choose their utility provider, but that is not a universal rule, nor a reason to distinguish the case of Facebook, which, by its own success in becoming THE digital "public square," has become a utility. Imagine the what would occur if the NY Times were able to grow to the point that 95% of the people were subscribers, and all but a handful of curiosity papers went out of business. If all the "news" and "opinion" is found in one place, then do you really think those who control that forum should be able to ban political messages supported by half the population? The 1st Amendment comes into play because the purpose of Amendment is to prevent that kind of political censorship, and because the Government failed to prevent the creation of the monopoly in the delivery of news and opinion.
Your remark is self evident except to leftist deniers. They do not argue in good faith. Their sicko agenda makes them impervious to arguments of fact, of logic, or of law. David and Eugene are deniers.
Yes, of course.
(Again, I will note that this exact argument was used by the defenders of the Florida reply law in Tornillo — that a major newspaper like the Herald was effectively a monopoly in its market — and the Supreme Court rejected that as a defense of the law.)
The first amendment is meant to protect newspapers from the government, not the government from newspapers.
David. You are a denier. You need to disclose the nature of your practice. You will never concede a self evident point opposing that of your clients. Ivy indoctrinated Eugene serves the hierarchy and the Koch Bros. He indoctrinates hundreds of intelligent ethical young people into sick garbage supernatural lawyer doctrines to further the Inquisition 2.0 and rent seeking.
Facebook is not a utility.
It does not lease rights of way or spectrum from the government, nor is it granted a regulated monopoly.
Facebook is a private business, and thus should have the same relationship with the 1st Amendment as your local bar-and-grill.
While it's true that Facebook "does not lease rights of way or spectrum from the government, nor is it granted a regulated monopoly", those are not the criteria that (necessarily) define a business as a "utility".
To be sure, those two things are not part of the definition of utility. But those are the types of factors that are characteristic of utilities.
"Mainstream or not, that seems like one of those survey responses that, in a few years, very few people can remember having given..."
Must be nice to be able to predict the future.
It’s the March of Progress. History is programmed to march ever onward toward those things that progressives favor. It’s SCIENCE btw, not mystical chanting.
Posterity will despise transphoboc bigots as strongly as we despise any other Nazilike bigots.
You mean transphobes who can define what a woman is? Transphobes who think inmates getting inmates pregnant isn't good thing? It's the people supporting nonsense as science that need to be erased from history and the present if there is any hope for humanity.
And male inmates raping female inmates.
Well, yeah, if the left triumphs, holding views like that could lead to you ending up in the camps, and nobody wants that.
This is the reader this white, male, movement conservative blog cultivates and attracts. A disaffected, desperate, delusional right-winger. The target audience is "stolen election"-birther-QAnon.
No wonder this blog censors liberals and libertarians.
If a politician can be forced to allow dirt people access to their FB and twitter accounts as 'government communications' how can they limit the pols from posting government communications?
Your question makes no sense.
If a politician reserves a privately owned auditorium in order to hold a town hall meeting — not a campaign event, I mean, but a government event — the politician cannot discriminate against audience members on the basis of their speech.
That does not mean that a privately owned auditorium can be forced to host the politician in the first place.
I presume that he's referring to Pres. Trump and Twitter. The comment still doesn't make much sense, since Pres. Trump used his Twitter feed for official business.
I know what he was referring to. I'm actually not sold on the holding of Knight First Amendment Institute v. Trump; among other things, I'm not sold on the notion that everything the president says is "official business." But there's nothing inconsistent about saying that his twitter feed is a public forum (limited or otherwise) and that twitter is not obligated to provide that forum in the first place.
Much less to do so via the latest flexible pejorative that has been overused to the point of losing any discernible meaning. "Hate speech" here simply means "speech the FB minions don't like" -- no more, no less.
Thus does a position get hidden under the cover of hate speech -- this was the desired, intended goal when politicians of both parties threatened section 230 unless hate speech was reigned in -- only to immediately demand it be applied to politicians to silence them.
Which it was. And is.
"for public debate to properly function"
That's the thing. Posts on Facebook are not part of the public debate. Facebook is a private company and they can regulate speech how they see fit within the bounds of the First Amendment's exceptions. Facebook has sole control of its service and any speech on it is thus not part of the public debate.
If one is worried about the functioning of public debate because of Facebook's policies, one can always start one's own social media company. After all, the best way to combat speech one does not like is by speaking oneself.
Donald Trump is doing this right now with Truth Social for that very reason. I never thought I would say this, but I think Donald Trump is doing the right thing in this case.
And yet, those same people saying "muh private company" complain ed about Elon Musk actually resorting Twitter to its advertised purpose, instead of, you know, founding their own social media platform that advertises itself as a disinformation-free zone.
I have no problem with Musk buying Twitter. He can only allow one viewpoint on there if he wants if and when the deal goes through. It will have nothing to do with free speech if that were to happen.
The people saying "muh private company" also think that a man should lose his livelihood because he refuses to participate in a "marriage" that involves abuse of the digestive system.
All marriages can involve abuse of the digestive system
Which of the Volokh Conspirators will step up and address the point that their blog attracts so many gay-bashers, racists, misogynists, immigrant-haters, and insurrectionists? And that this is not mere coincidence?
Who wants to be the first?
#ConservativeCourage
#4ChanOfLegalBlogs
Fuck off, Peter Breath
That was a spot-on impersonation of a Volokh Conspirator. Thank you.
Amen, amen!
As a private company Facebook can publish or not publish any damn thing it pleases. It does not have to please the progressives, the liberals, the Democrats, the Republicans, the conservatives or in this case, the crazies.
Prof. Volokh, whom I admire and respect is rapidly moving towards a persona that is highly prejudiced in favor of one political party and one set of political ideas, thus rendering his contribution to debates on freedom and freedom of speech partisan pandering rather than honest, intellectual arguing.
If he thinks government should have absolute control what private websites publish, let him and those who support that position say so explicitly. And they have the right to make those statements, but cannot at the same time claim to be in favor of Constitutional rights or conservative government. Free speech is the freedom not to say something, compelled speech is not free speech, it is fascist and authoritarian.
Sad, sad, sad.
Learn to read before you comment:
"Naturally, such blocking doesn't violate the First Amendment (which governs only governmental speech restrictions) or any federal law; and, to my knowledge, it wouldn't violate any state social media nondiscrimination rules..."
Makes you look like an idiot to respond with this:
"If he thinks government should have absolute control what private websites publish.."
All he said is if Facebook wants to be a forum for public debate then it should allow both sides to debate.
"All he said is if Facebook wants to be a forum for public debate then it should allow both sides to debate."
What would Artie Ray have said (had this white, male, hypocritical right-wing blog not banned him for making fun of conservatives)?
Kazinski, Volokh also said that if the federal government changed the law to require Facebook to publish all comments, Facebook would probably have no 1A right against that. Here he is saying it:
As to whether it has a First Amendment right to do so, if the law were changed to restrict such exclusion, . . . the answer is probably "no,"
Volokh made that statement in support of changing federal law to treat Facebook as a common carrier.
More generally, why do you need to call someone an, "idiot," or say, "Learn to read?"
Where does that leave you? finkel read Volokh better than you did.
Because they are idiots who need to learn to read. Speaking of which, SL equates "the answer is probably "no,"" with "he thinks government should have absolute control what private websites publish". Learn to read, idiot.
Sid. Try to calm down. Eugene remains a denier. He is a agent of the Koch Brothers via Reason. He will never argue to make these platforms utilities, while they maintain their privileged immunities like quasi-governmental agencies.
So in your view you either need to be a multi-billionaire to afford to start your own social media company or you should accept kow towing to the whims of expression allowed by your betters? OK Kirkland. Sorry, facebook is part of the public debate no matter how much marxists want it controlled and managed for their benefit and assertions to the contrary are not arguments.
It is a private company. By definition it is not part of the public debate. Newspapers, news programs, radio stations, any media company should not be forced to host content it does not want to. One can argue that they should be forced to host such content, but one should know that one is advocating for the restriction of free speech.
This is a good example of why media should not be concentrated into a small number of companies.
It figures that an authoritarian nutjob would claim that restrictions on censorship are actually restrictions on free speech. Go on, tell us that war is peace and freedom is slavery and losing huge chunks of one's military forces is a special military operation.
"restrictions on censorship"
A call to arms by Libertarians For Government Control Of Speech By Private Entities.
Get an education, Michael P.
A private company can restrict speech of whatever they want, which is their free speech right. I would not consider a company exercising its free speech rights as censorship.
So you think that Amazon can (legally) ban union organizers and advocates from their premises, including firing employees who call for unionization? After all, that's a private company restricting speech.
They are private, but the idea government isn't twisting their arm has long since sailed. They spent years, and still do, threatening to break section 230, in the way mafia visitors note "you know, things break", which will cost them billions to tens of billions (or hundreds of billions, in the case of the trillion dollar club) unless they censor harrassment.
Immediately, per public tweets, this was applied to opposition tweets, declared harrassing, and were censored. Right before an election.
So, no, these are not private citizens freely making editorial or speech decisions, carefree and at their own whim.
"Did government threaten you?"
Facebook looks up, as a guy in a pinstripe suit puts an arm around him and straightens its hair. "No, no. We was just foolin' around. The black eye? I just tripped."
Facebook was started by a college student. Zuckerberg is a billionaire now, but he didn't start that way.
(Also it's pretty hilarious to hear someone use the term "Marxist" to describe people who are suggesting a more laissez-faire approach to business. It's almost like you don't know what that word actually means.)
Facebook is a private company. So are the movie studios and publishers that implemented the blacklist. And yet I never meet anyone who wants to defend social media censorship who has publicly endorsed the blacklist. starlord1998, this is your chance.
If movie comanies want to have a blacklist, that it their right. I think it would be a bad idea for them, but that is their right. I think it is a bad idea for social media companies to restrict certain viewoints, but that is their right.
If movie comanies want to have a blacklist, that it their right.
What if they don't actually want to, but are pressured into it by threats from government?
"If one is worried about the functioning of public debate because of Facebook's policies, one can always start one's own social media company. "
Amazing how leftists push this meme regarding the ue of private property when they decry most others.
Let's get real; it is far from the means of 99.99% percent of the world population to "start one's own social medium company."
Facebook is a de facto common carrier and should be treated as such.
The argument that you have to start a social medium company to publish your unpopular ideas is funny. Whatever your kookie thoughts, if they are nonviolent you can probably find some social medium to communicate them.
After all, you are publishing here, aren't you?
There's massive collusion among tech companies suppressing unpopular ideas. You are kicked off Twitter / Facebook / etc., your blogging platform shuts you down, your Internet service provider denies you service. What then?
Your post is not even a decent quip. It is merely a display of intellectual dishonesty
I am not "a leftist" so you should check your facts on that. I believe in the rights of private property in most situations. When it comes to compelling a person or company to host views they do not want to, I am completely opposed to it. Others can have different viewpoints but it is not free speech in those cases.
But that private property own can have special rights and privileges not available to others. That is what sec. 230 gives FB
Sec 230 applies to any "provider or user of an interactive computer service". You're using this site? Sec 230 gives you all the "rights and privileges" it gives to anyone else.
IOW, it applies to anyone. There are no "special" rights and privileges granted by sec 230,
Funny thing. A recurring theme of the communists was that "freedom of the press is only for those who own the presses." Weird how many folks are now jumping up and down saying commies are right that capitalism prevents "real" freedom of speech. Guess it's not about principles, but whose ox is being gored. Seems that economic rights are only important when they bolster the way folks want things to go.
"Posts on Facebook are not part of the public debate. Facebook is a private company..."
Holy non-sequitur, Batman! Lots of public debate takes place on private property.
"If one is worried about the functioning of public debate because of Facebook's policies, one can always start one's own social media company. After all, the best way to combat speech one does not like is by speaking oneself."
One can also speak oneself by criticizing Facebook's policies, which is what's happening here.
The second sentence does not follow from the first.
That's the thing. Posts on Facebook are not part of the public debate. Facebook is a private company and they can regulate speech how they see fit within the bounds of the First Amendment's exceptions. Facebook has sole control of its service and any speech on it is thus not part of the public debate.
Except, curiously, Facebook does not hold itself out as a simple blog or web-page with its own editorial stance (as many blogs do). From Meta's Annual Report in 2021:
Sure sounds like a public forum.
That, IMO, is the rub. Facebook wants to say it operates one way, but then reserves to itself the right to operate another way. This may not make a legal difference, but it sure smacks of hypocrisy.
It is a company owned by shareholders and not controlled by the government. By definition cannot be a public forum. You make a good point that Facebook says one thing and operates another way, but I do not see that as a problem from a free speech perspective. I personally think Facebook is a terrible company, which is why I rarely use it, but my view is that they have the right to deny to host whatever content they do not want to.
Those of you who think there is a role for government to play in forcing private companies to publish your opinons, ou have a constitutional right to express that opinion, but not on a private company's forum.
But good news, there are places where your viewpoint does hold, and maybe you should consider going there. Surely Iran, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia and the like would welcome you. You would certainly fit right in. Try not to let the door slam when you leave.
Nothing in that vague handwavy quoted language is "another way" than the way it operates. It does not say, "And therefore anything goes."
You need to ditch the concept of "mainstream." So long as one accepts it, he pretty much has to accept being silenced by those who get to define what is mainstream and what isn't.
If there is anything a disaffected, antisocial, authoritarian, defeated, hopeless misfit at the right-wing fringe hates it is the modern "mainstream."
Replacement will solve all associated problems.
Some guy just killed 10 people because of being stimulated to action over "your replacment is underway!" on dodgy, troll organization-overrun web sites.
In case you are on vacation, posting from a pool bar stool in Jamaica.
We should ignore or misstate the point that the number of grievance-consumed conservative whites continues to dwindle in America -- cranky old right-wingers take their stale thinking to the grave in the natural course every day and are replaced in our electorate by younger, better, less bigoted and backward Americans -- because accurate statements may lather the disaffected, stale-thinking clingers?
Professor Volokh,
Your statement "The Florida and Texas laws, for instance, seem to me to cover only material posted by residents of those states." is incorrect. The Texas law prohibits the social media companies in question from blocking someone from receiving another user's expression as well.
"Sec. 143A.002. CENSORSHIP PROHIBITED. (a) A social media
platform may not censor a user, a user's expression, or a user's
ability to receive the expression of another person based on:
(1) the viewpoint of the user or another person;
(2) the viewpoint represented in the user's expression
or another person's expression; or
(3) a user's geographic location in this state or any
part of this state.
(b) This section applies regardless of whether the
viewpoint is expressed on a social media platform or through any
other medium."
I don't understand how that changes the analysis. A FB user in Texas is unable to receive the expression of Blackburn because FB blocked it.
The "user" is in Texas. The "another person" is Blackburn. What am I missing?
The next step will be banning people from using the banking system. If you’re canceled for questioning the orthodoxy, your bank will tell you they no longer want your business. And all the rest of the banks will be pressured into doing the same.
It’s totalitarian.
The time to stop it is here and now.
China has a Social Desirability Score, like our Credit Score. You need a good one, nor just for a job, or for an apartment, but for a train ticket.
Like Thomas Friedman said: Oh, to be China for a day!
(I'm starting to suspect that Queenie is Thomas Friedman...)
I think it needs to be pointed out that, regardless of whether FB has the right to this moderation action, they ARE arguably engaging in it under false pretenses. Labeling, not just a common viewpoint, but a majority viewpoint, "hate speech", just because they have an ideological disagreement with it?
I agree that it is over the top to label it as hate speech.
Brett is being stupid again. There are no "false pretenses," and there is obviously nothing about something being a majority view that precludes it from being hate speech. One can obviously think of many viewpoints in many societies throughout history that were held by the majority that were nevertheless hateful.
So who is the arbiter of what is and is not hate speech?
At Facebook or Twitter, Facebook or Twitter decides what Facebook or Twitter is to publish.
At the Volokh Conspiracy, the Volokh Conspiracy decides what this white, male, right-wing blog is to publish.
Facebook and Twitter ban some users and censor others.
As does the Volokh Conspiracy.
The difference: Facebook and Twitter have enough self-awareness to refrain from criticizing the Volokh Conspiracy when this white, male, right-wing blog repeatedly censors comments and bans commenters it wants to suppress.
(One other difference: Facebook and Twitter may not feature quite the level of vile racial slurs the Volokh Conspiracy publishes.)
His argument isn't that the "hate speech" label is wrong because it's a majority view, but that the label is wrong because it was only applied because Facebook's censors "have an ideological disagreement with it". And that this is a particularly egregious problem when the view is a majority one.
Yes, I'm arguing that the designation as "hate speech" was pretextual, and transparently so.
It’s a good example of why the very idea of "hate speech" should never be taken seriously. "Hate speech" will always end up meaning speech they want to censor.
Same thing with the words are violence scam. Which words are violence? Any words they want to censor.
Any words spoken at above about 150db would qualify as violence, IMO.
A pretext for what, Brett? That doesn't even make any sense. They "have an ideological disagreement with it" because they think it's hate speech.
What part of the censored FB post is supposedly hate speech? Identifying someone with XY chromosomes and male genitalia as a "biological male"?
No, you've got the causality backwards. Because they have the ideological disagreement, they declare it to be hate speech, because that gives them an excuse to shut it down.
The ideology is prior to the declaration, causally and logically, because they simply do NOT declare statements they agree with to be 'hate speech'.
Isn't the definition of what's hate speech ideological? Which renders causality between the two an incoherent concept.
Que ?
"Bourgeois" speech is that which challenges the party line. The party line is the ideological measuring rod by which you measure whether speech is bourgeois or not. You do not determine that speech is "bourgeois" by some independent standard and then say "Aha, this is bourgeois speech, so it must be against the party line."
The ideology determines the categorisation of the speech. Why on Earth would you imagine that the logic of causality cannot be applied to this straightforward case ?
What the fuck are you talking about? You're overusing your new buzzword so much you've rendered it, and your comment meaningless.
Facebook isn't the party. Social issues are not class struggle. Classifying speech you don't like as hate speech and not liking hate speech are the same exercise, happening at the same time.
1. What's my new buzzword ?
2. I'm just offering you a second example of how the speech may be categorised by the ideology.
3. Classifying speech you don't like as hate speech and not liking hate speech are the same exercise, happening at the same time.
Sophistro at his best (or worst.) You have of course elided the step whereby you identify the speech as speech you don't like by measuring it against your ideology. Some speech will be so obviously contrary to your ideology that you may not perceive the intermediate step. But at other times it may require some thought.
Which is why I offered you the example of bourgeois speech. It was not at all obvious to speakers or party members what was going to be classified as bourgeois speech, until the party let you know.
You did not make it at all clear you were taking an example. And it was not a very enlightening one.
DMN is right on this - you're creating a distinction that does not exist.
You did not make it at all clear
Why, Mr Pot, I do believe it's you !
PS DMN is saying the chain of causation goes :
identification of hate speech => deduction of ideological disagreement / disapproval
Brett is saying it's the other way round.
You, however, are saying there's no chain of causation, it's a simultaneous identification of the hateyness of the speech and the ideological impurity. Indeed you go further and generalise into the proposition that it is incoherent to make deductions from ideological statements.
Thus we cannot deduce "murderers should not be executed " from "capital punishment should not be applied to anyone."
It's a view, certainly, but it needs to be worked on some.
Here's a good current example of the ideological nature of hate speech classification (in this case "racist" speech) :
https://twitter.com/Undoomed/status/1528753770183671808
There's no difference, obviously, between "colored person" and "person of color" - it's just that one is currently out of fashion, and the other is in fashion. No doubt in ten years "person of color" will be out of fashion, and so "racist", and something else will be in.
The keepers of the religion specify the shibboleths, and once they become too well used, they get changed, so as better to identify the outsider.
PS you're being gnomic again.
They don't need an "excuse" to shut it down. They disapprove of it; that's enough. And they reason they disapprove of it is because they think it's hate speech.
Hi Eugene - you know a lot more about this than I do, but isn't it likely that some AI flagged the post as opposed to a human making an actual decision about it? I see lots and lots of similar posts on FB from some of my friends.
A human programmed the "AI". The program reflects the business principles of the owning corporation. Facebook is a fascism advocate clearly in opposition to personal freedom.
Of course, the proper response is to stop using facebook, and to let everyone know of your actions, and that you oppose the editorial viewpoint of facebook.
(sort of like pissing the spellchecker off by refusing to capitalize facebook)
You obviously don't understand how AI works. Humans do not program AI, that's the whole point of them. They frequently end up behaving in unexpected ways. You think someone at Amazon programmed Alexa to tell a kid to short a penny across an outlet for fun?
And you obviously do not know how FB uses algorithmic filters, if you think this is a case of Skynet running amok. Their flagging system uses a large staff of paid and volunteer censors who look at the flagged content, and the algorithms themselves are constantly tweaked to agree with the human censors' judgement.
The problem is that they're ideologically vetted to all be extremely left wing.
The problem is that they're ideologically vetted to all be extremely left wing.
Evidence for this ridiculous assertion?
Evidence for this ridiculous assertion?
Open your eyes and start with the post mentioned in this article.
What post? What article?
Look. I know that there are lots of conservatives who think that FB and whoever are not really interested in business success, but are actually plotting to help a socialist takeover of the country.
Brett, in particular, keeps repeating this. Somehow he never actually provides any real evidence.
It's bullshit.
Are you objecting to the 'extremely left wing', but would agree with 'big tech slants strongly left'?
Because, statistically speaking, big tech employees don't seem to mirror the country at large. For example, Facebook and Twitter employees have given $2.7million to Democrats in 2020 - ten times the amount they have donated to Republicans.
And that also seems true of their moderation. This thread is about suppressing a viewpoint shared by a strong majority of Americans. Suppressing a majority viewpoint isn't just trimming off the 4 sigma tails of the political viewpoint distribution.
Your data shows that FB and Twitter employees are far more likely to be Democrats than Republicans. It is a long way from there to,
"that also seems true of their moderation."
It is an even longer way to Brett's claim that FB's moderators are "ideologically vetted to all be extremely left wing."
Look. I see this claim by Brett and others here all the time. What I don't see is a convincing basis for it. The Blackburn anecdote is just that.
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1526338897206079488
Project Veritas via libs of ticktock?!
Oh, and look at the twitter replies - the problem with believing multiple known liars is that suddenly a bunch of assumptions need to be tested, like whether this guy actually works for Twitter.
And, of course, the thesis is not the same as bernard's, who is discarding Brett's usual thesis that if you vote Dem you're irrevocably biased.
You know that there's no evidence that the person in that video even exists, right?
(I mean, obviously there is a person in the video; I'm not claiming he's CGI. I'm saying that if you try to find evidence of his identity, there isn't anything other than this video and people responding to it.)
The OP is literally about FB banning a Republican candidate's post expressing a viewpoint over 60% of the public agree with.
Now the ball is in your court: Show us a case of FB banning a Democratic candidate's post expressing a viewpoint over 60% of the public agree with. Must be examples, if FB moderation isn't politically biased, after all.
No actually, Brett.
You have not met your burden that there is anything like an intentional, counter-profit seeking plot to propagandize America into socialism by the uber-capitalists at big tech.
A random anecdote where your side runs up the rules comes nowhere near to the telepathy required to support your thesis.
Ball remains very much in your court.
Right wing Kraken head crackpots, cranks, and crazies consider themselves to be independent free thinkers who come by their anti-social parroting of Alex Jones, Jordan Peterson, and Rafael the Canadian Cruz as a result of superior rational and logic based moral thinking. Their bizarre perception of reality leads them to believe that anybody with an opinion that is not within their understanding must be a member of a neo-marxist, post modernist, socialist conspiracy. Their thought processes are, in reality, not so different from those of the flat earthers and moon landing denialists; people who don't believe in gravity but do believe in "cold light."
"As late as around 1980, about 60% of the population disapproved of interracial marriage. Does that mean that it isn't hate speech to say so?"
That's an interesting question! I guess it comes down to how you define hate speech, i.e. how small can a minority be and still define opposing viewpoints as hate speech.
Can 'elephants aren't people' be hate speech? We can surely find people in PETA or somewhere who think that is true. But it seems that if you go too far down any path like that, then you can find some fringe that things any possible statement is hate - somewhere, no doubt, there is a fringe that thinks 'tofu is yummy!' is hate speech.
I think that for the term to be useful, you have to limit it to sentiments that are, at least, not the majority.
As late as around 1980, about 60% of the population disapproved of interracial marriage. Does that mean that it isn't hate speech to say so?
Er, that last question should have said, "Does that mean that in 1980 it wasn't hate speech to say so?"
Of course they "program" AI. They program it with training data that is supposed to match a desired, known outcome. The choice of training data and the definition of the correct answer are completely human choices, and will have all the virtues and vices of any human endeavor. You can most certainly train an AI machine to be racist, if you wanted to.
Facebook seems to be clearly as a publisher in its role directing political expression. The problem is that none of the politicos are willing to do anything about it.
Elizabeth Warren screamed bloody murder about the Tech industry until they started doing the Democratic party's dirty work in censoring their opposition (as Biden swept into office). The Republicans are equally angry about "big Tech" now, but will, undoubtedly, let up as soon as they sweep in during the midterms and get Facebook and the other toadies to do their bidding.
Brandon wouldn't have gotten into office without the assistance of the "progressives."
Some say he didn't really get into office, that he "won" through fraud.
Some say the earth is flat. They have an absolute right to say it.
I've been even-handed in my complaints about pols threatening section 230. Republicans also threaten section 230, but to force inclusion of all viewpoints instead of censoring some.
If they take control, they might try to alter it, but Biden will veto it to protect the Democrats' threat to continue Democrat-helpful censorship.
Neither should be doing this, but if Republicans also gain the presidency 2 years later, expect patter from companies about the value of free speech to re-gain ascendancy.
We shouldn't be in this position to begin with.
While true that both sides seek to control FB behavior/speech... they aren't value-equal.
Both positions are unfortunate... but one position is "Say everything and let free people decide," while the other is "Hide information to keep people from being free to decide."
In a perfect world, neither position would need to be forced. But given that it isn't a perfect world, the only way to stop the latter is to succeed with the former.
I hate that... but it is true.
sparkstable, your advocacy is to force private publishers to publish content with which they disagree. I am not sure I see the, "value-equal," advantage to exclude private publishers from those entitled to press freedom.
And of course, under your scheme, how much of everything free people get to see before they decide, will depend on an unlikely commitment by private publishers to continue playing along under coercion—unless you plan also to coerce them to continue. Where your advocacy leads, by a shorter route than you suspect, is to state-run media.
How is the social media editorial viewpoint advocacy for socialism any different from that of the New York Times?
No one buys the NYT and then gets all huffy because it spews lies and hatred.
Does Facebook criticize you when you (repeatedly) impose viewpoint-driven censorship, Prof. Volokh?
Have you developed enough character to apologize to Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland yet?
#FauxLibertarianHypocrisy
Say, you have yet to answer the question. How long have you been a leftwing extremist homosexual?
You know, just for the record.
The Rev is a lawyer.
Since at least 1980
"Does Facebook criticize you when you (repeatedly) impose viewpoint-driven censorship, Prof. Volokh?"
Are you still sore that you weren't allowed to direct anti-gay slurs at other commenters, Arthur? That was like 10 years ago.
That is your defense of this blog's longstanding record of hypocritical, partisan censorship?
With friends like you, Prof. Volokh . . . has precisely the friends he seems to prefer.
The studio version.
"Nonetheless, I don't think it's good for democracy that platforms with the reach and importance of Facebook (which the Supreme Court has characterized as "the modern public square") would purport to thus restrict the expression of opinions."
Eugene, this parenthetical miscasts the Packingham decision to (somehow) support your point (which appears to be that you disagree with Facebook's decision to moderate this post). You're smarter than this. Don't write paragraphs in a way that can be easily misconstrued by people who think platforms have no right to moderate their (allegedly) hateful speech.
The decision cited deals with the government cutting off certain people from the internet. It has nothing to do with platform moderation of user-generated content. By inserting it into this paragraph, it gives readers the impression the Supreme Court believes (at least in some fashion), platforms are obliged to carry whatever content users create, whether or not it's against their policies.
I expressly said in my post that it's not illegal for Facebook to exclude whatever it wants. As to whether it has a First Amendment right to do so, if the law were changed to restrict such exclusion, I think that's a difficult question, though the answer is probably "no," see my Treating Social Media Platforms Like Common Carriers? article.
As to the Packingham quote, I think I'm using it quite correctly: The Court was pointing out how important social media platforms are to public discourse; it did so on the way to explaining why a particular governmental restriction on people's access was unconstitutional, but the underlying assertion -- again, about the platforms' importance -- also bears on whether we should be troubled by platforms' own exclusions.
I don't think it would pass 1A muster for Congress to make Internet content moderation illegal. It could make it less appealing (such as by revoking section 230 and / or incentivizing a common-carrier regime) but not illegal. Facebook could decide to moderate (and accept whatever consequences come with that) or not.
Not that Congress would be so stupid to try that anyway. Could you imagine an Internet without moderation? Actually it's not that hard for those of us who were online in the early 90s and before. Spoiler: nastytown!
The goal isn't an internet without moderation, though. It's an internet without political censorship pretending to be moderation. More specifically, without political censorship the users themselves disagree with being imposed on them.
And, it's easy enough to see how such a system could work. The platforms themselves would operate as common carriers limited to complying with court orders to take down illegal content, and maybe extremely consensus 'offensive' content, and you could have competing third party filters selected by the individual users.
This is actually the system Section 230 anticipated. It makes specific reference to the platforms having to permit third party filtering, and telling users how to find it. (Spoiler: Instead, FB actively works to defeat third party filters such as FB Purity.) And it's safe harbor for moderation is expressly limited in a way that was expected to limit moderation to consensus cases, not content that a super-majority of the population agrees with.
" It's an internet without political censorship pretending to be moderation "
Unless the Volokh Conspiracy changes its ways with respect to repeated, viewpoint-driven, partisan censorship, there can be no "internet without political censorship pretending to be moderation."
Are you calling for Prof. Volokh to apologize with respect to his right-wing censorship and rescind the banishment of Artie Ray (who was banned from making fun of conservatives a bit too deftly for the proprietor's taste)?
(This request goes out from Artie Ray to Eugene . . . with a special appearance from The Big Man)
Have you tried your ad hominems lately? Perhaps they have changed.
Your repeated pointings out that they focus only on government university censorship while leaving idiotic private university policies alone caused them to address private universities, to hold them accountable to their academic and speech freedom boilerplate.
You are a mover and a shaker.
Speaking of which, mover and shaker, you might want to tone down your "you are being replaced!" rhetoric, given someone just shot up a place because of stimulation by similar trolling.
You recall incorrectly. I faulted the clingers for aiming their misleading, cherry-picked, partisan ankle-biting at mainstream private schools while disregarding the far more severe censorship and flouting of academic freedom that marks conservative-controlled campuses that flatter right-wing donors.
The number of left-wing authoritarian replacement theorist radicals can't be all that large. When news broke from Buffalo, I thought for sure it must be RALK. But he's still here, so must be another one.
The diminution of the number of conservatives in our society is not a conspiracy, not a theory, not a project.
It is just an observable, natural element of an improving America.
Elderly conservatives die off, taking their stale and ugly thinking to the grave in the natural course. Younger, better Americans become eligible to take the place of the departed right-wingers in our electorate every day, on 18th birthdays. The bigoted, superstitious old Republicans are replaced by better, more diverse, younger Americans. Quite simple. Quite an improvement.
Conservatives may not like this longstanding pattern of events, but how can they deny it is occurring?
I presume RALK answered me with some invective, but all I hear coming from the gray box is "wah Wah wah wah-wah wah", you know Charlie Brown teacher style.
I think this kind of government-driven and government sanctioned moderation would still run afoul of 1A (and anyway should be setting off alarm bells). Nothing else in 1A-land works anything like that. Probably the closest was "equal time," but that was premised on the radio spectrum belonging to the people and has anyway been repudiated.
There are way more sites on the Internet than just FB and Twitter, and many of them are explicitly viewpoint non-neutral. What happens to them? I suspect that FB would like to get rid of political speech entirely and go back to focusing on cat pictures.
This is a gibberish non-distinction.
No intelligent person thinks that such a system could work. Not to mention that your caveat is "They shouldn't censor unless it's something that I personally would be okay with them censoring," which isn't a standard.
No, it isn't, and no, it doesn't.
"No, it isn't, and no, it doesn't."
"(c)Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material
(1)Treatment of publisher or speaker
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.
(2)Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, [That's the consensus moderation language.] whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or
(B)any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1).[1]
(d)Obligations of interactive computer service
A provider of interactive computer service shall, at the time of entering an agreement with a customer for the provision of interactive computer service and in a manner deemed appropriate by the provider, notify such customer that parental control protections (such as computer hardware, software, or filtering services) are commercially available that may assist the customer in limiting access to material that is harmful to minors. Such notice shall identify, or provide the customer with access to information identifying, current providers of such protections.[And that's the 3rd party moderation software language.]"
As usual, nothing in the law you cite actually says what you claim it does.
When was the last time you posted legal text to support your position and anyone actually said you were right, Brett?
I think this is a misleading way of characterizing your earlier argument. When lawyers talk about what the law "probably" provides, they are usually talking about a question where the law fails to address the issue clearly or directly, but does include various principles that indicate how a judge would likely rule on the issue, if asked.
In contrast, your argument that social media companies can be regulated, consistent with the First Amendment, so as to require them to host and distribute speech with which they disagree, is highly speculative. Your strongest claim strings together an argument from a handful of inapposite Supreme Court 1A chestnuts - and it would only relate to the "hosting" function. When it comes to functions of social media companies beyond that rudimentary "hosting" function, your argument becomes very aggressive, on the law as we have it, and relies on a simplistic understanding of what companies like Facebook do. So it would be more appropriate to describe your article as merely putting forth your view that the regulation of social media companies as "common carriers" might be reasonably defensible, as a matter of 1A law, assuming that various kinks can be worked out (which you have not done).
You would never, in other words, advise a client to make an important decision on the basis of believing that courts would "probably" uphold the contemplated kind of social media company regulation, as a matter of First Amendment law. You might advocate for that position and file an amicus brief pushing your interpretation, and the vindictive numbskulls on the Fifth Circuit may even embrace it enthusiastically. But it would be malpractice to say that the law "probably" comes out the way you think it should - at least as far as you've developed the argument, yourself.
Eugene, this is a dodge. It's like picking the old joke about critical praise on movie posters - you've just lifted a relevant phrase from one context and dropped it into a different context where its implication would be different. The fact that you sense the need to defend your usage here should be a good tip, to you, that your original cite to Packingham was misleading.
(Of course, I understand that your intent was to mislead/"advocate", so that the criticism tends to fall on deaf ears.)
But you're using that one specific citation to make a different argument. The Supreme Court decision says people should not be denied access to the new "public square" by government intervention. It says nothing about platforms and their right to deny access to the new "public square" for perceived violations of content policies.
You're not using the Packingham quote "correctly." You're using it insincerely.
IOW, the court views access to online services as a necessary part of everyday life in the 21st century. But it does not say users should be able to do whatever they want when accessing those services. It only says the GOVERNMENT needs to be extremely careful when it decides to prevent the public from accessing these essential services.
The court views access to the internet overall (not access to a specific website, but the ability to connect) as something protected by the 1st Amendment, that the government cannot remove without satisfying strict scrutiny.
The key part being *the government* and *overall*.
That does not justify a taking of any given website's private property for the purpose of creating an online 'public square'....
I suppose I'll defend Eugene for once. It is certainly relevant to his argument that the Supreme Court has described social media as "the modern public square." The context wasn't even all that different... it was a 1A case after all. Was it the exact same case? No, but that only seems to matter in qualified immunity jurisprudence. Let's not legitimize that any more than we need to. 🙂
It is certainly relevant to his argument that the Supreme Court has described social media as "the modern public square."
Why is that relevant? What if the description is inaccurate, as I think it is?
If you are speaking in the public square and I pass by in the normal course of my daily activities I will probably hear you, at least a little, and may be drawn into listening further.
But I can go about my business without reading your FB posts, or anyone else's. Indeed, I do just that.
My point is that while looking for analogies is fine, sometimes there aren't really any useful ones, and you have to reason anew.
I think that's why it's relevant. The Supreme Court expressed an opinion on the question, and it's the opposite of yours.
On the other hand... Eugene's whole point is that FB's behavior is "bad for democracy" but not illegal in any way, so it's not clear why the Supreme Court's opinion has any bearing on that question.
The context is different in that the case in question involved government action (restricting sex offenders from accessing the internet at all in any way).
Facebook isn't the government, they are a private business. The 1st Amendment does not restrain private businesses. And utility regulation doesn't apply because FB doesn't have any of the characteristics of a public utility (eg, they don't rely on leasing resources or land from the government to do business, and they do not have a legally-granted monopoly/territory).
Professor Volokh, putting aside Section 230 for the moment, does not Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robin (1980) stand for the proposition that a state can force a private entity to host speech it does not agree with?
In thar case, the Supreme Court (unanimously) held that a state could force a private shopping center to allow a group of students to set up a table on its property to solicit signatures for a petition. The burden on the shopping center there is exponentially greater than the de minimis burden of forcing a web platform to allot the infinitesimal bandwidth required to host a post.
Well, that is part of the argument I make in my Treating Social Media Platforms Like Common Carriers? article, though I think it works best when Pruneyard is combined with Rumsfeld v. FAIR and Turner Broadcasting System v. FCC.
There are cases (Miami Herald, Pacific Gas, Hurley) where the Court held a private entity has a First Amendment right not to host. Which cases are the best fit to a social media platform? I don't know. But one good point is unlike a social media platform, a shopping mall doesn't have as one of its main functions the communication of ideas.
That's why Rumsfeld v. FAIR is a useful complement (as is Turner Broadcasting). A university does have as one of its main functions the communication of ideas -- and yet it can still be compelled to host military recruiters on its property, even when it would prefer not to.
Rumsfeld threatened only the withholding of funds. What federal funds would the govt withhold from Facebook?
Also, the key in Rumsfeld was that no one would reasonably have thought that Yale was endorsing the recruiters, since the event was open to all employers. That's more like if a service that was already a common carrier decided to deny service to the military. Yale could have worked around that by having a special "Yale-Endorsed Job Fair" specifically for Yale-approved employers. Military recruiters could have been excluded from such an event. That's similar to Facebook and Twitter's promoted content. Promoted content clearly bears their imprimatur. Moderated content likely does as well.
Finally, the fact that it was the military also played a role in Rumsfeld because of the "raise and support Armies" clause.
I'm sure you already know all this, just raising it for the interest of others!
The Court explicitly said the Constitution would have permitted a direct requirement to host military recruiters untethered from funding.
Josh R: That's exactly right -- the Court avoided having to deal with the "unconstitutional conditions" doctrine (under which conditions attached to funding might be invalidated), by concluding that the restriction would have been permissible even if it weren't attached to funding:
Nor is Rumsfeld limited to the military. It discuss the government interest in Part III of the opinion, 547 U.S. at 58 (which was necessary given that the expressive conduct section applied United States v. O’Brien, which calls for an inquiry into the government’s interest, id. at 67–68), and mentioned that “‘judicial deference ... is at its apogee’ when Congress legislates under its authority to raise and support armies,” id. at 58. But the rest of the opinion applies normal First Amendment rules, and later cases have consistently applied Rumsfeld in matters entirely unrelated to the military, with no suggestion that it’s at all limited to military-related cases. See, e.g., Janus v. AFSCME, 138 S. Ct. 2448, 2468 (2018); Expressions Hair Design v. Schneiderman, 137 S. Ct. 1144, 1151 (2017); Agency for Int’l Dev. v. Alliance for Open Soc’y Int’l, 570 U.S. 205, 213 (2013); Sorrell v. IMS Health Inc., 564 U.S. 552, 567 (2011); Nevada Comm’n on Ethics v. Carrigan, 564 U.S. 117, 127 (2011); Davenport v. Washington Educ. Ass’n, 551 U.S. 177, 187 n.2 (2007).
Wow, Eugene, that is so misleading as to be a lie.
That part of Rumsfeld -- that the condition could have been imposed directly -- is premised on them being military recruiters, via the "raise and support Armies" clause as I mentioned before. The court didn't say that Congress could directly require Yale to host Avon and Amway. That quote comes from Part III of the opinion, which begins with the "raise and support Armies" cite. You can follow the logic directly from that cite to your quote. The "because" in "because the First Amendment would not prevent Congress from directly imposing the Solomon Amendment" is because it's military recruiters and not something else.
The beginning of Part III concludes
And while Part III began with a discussion on the greater deference give to Congress on military issues, the rest of Part III (Sections A1, A2, A3 and B) all apply non-military-related, standard First Amendment logic to reach that conclusion.
What are you talking about? The quote in question appears early in Part III, prior to any of the subsections, which is all about the special status of military recruiters.
"Congress’ decision to proceed indirectly does not reduce the deference given to Congress in the area of military affairs. Congress' choice to promote its goal by creating a funding condition deserves at least as deferential treatment as if Congress had imposed a mandate on universities."
In other words, the structure of Part III takes the deference due to military recruitment as the starting point.
Why then does IIIA1, IIIA2, IIIA3 and IIIB not mention military deference at all, and instead engage in a standard analysis that applies precedent from non-military cases?
Because those sections are devoted to rebutting the Court of Appeals decision (A) and FAIR's freedom-of-association argument (B).
The court's first-principles argument -- the initial section of Part III before getting in to rebuttals -- is all premised on "raise and support Armies."
I don't think so. Parts IIIA1, IIIA2, IIIA3 and IIIB explain how the court reached its conclusion in the last sentence of the introduction to III. Moreover, Eugene listed a set of cases that applied Rumsfeld to non-military, non-funding cases.
I'm not saying that Rumsfeld forecloses such a position. Maybe future cases went further, even using Rumsfeld as a stepping-stone. Maybe the author of Rumsfeld thought that way too. But Rumsfeld itself doesn't go that far.
BTW I'm not claiming that Rumsfeld has no application outside of the military context. It undoubtedly does. But only within the realm of funding conditions.
This quote that you and Eugene keep bandying about is unambiguously limited to military recruitment:
".. the First Amendment would not prevent Congress from directly imposing the Solomon Amendment's access requirement..."
Not only is your conclusion that your interpretation is unambiguously correct unsupported by evidence, Parts IIIA1, IIIA2, IIIA3 and IIIB are evidence to the contrary.
The evidence is reading comprehension.
Anyway, my reading is the generally accepted one. Check Wikipedia. And no, I didn't put it there. 🙂
The Wiki article quotes a New York Times (behind a paywall that I cannot access) article written by Linda Greenhouse. Such a reference does not amount to a generally accepted reading. This explanation is line with Eugene's reading.
That summary is ambiguous. Actually, taken literally, it supports my reading, as it only references military recruiters. It doesn't suggest that the quote in question reaches more broadly.
I think this borders on the disingenuous. FAIR turned on the fact that what it was really regulating was conduct, not speech, by the universities. It most certainly did not stand for the proposition that universities were required to host pro-military speeches — just military recruiters. On-campus recruiting is not part of the "communication of ideas" that a university specializes in.
It's easy to understand why it came out as it did; if the 1A allows schools to ban recruitment based solely on the fact that the military's presence on campus sent a message, then all anti-discrimination law is vulnerable to 1A attack.
As for Pruneyard, setting aside that I'm quite dubious that it would come out the same way now that it did with 1980s judicial lineup, it turned on the idea that the mall was open indiscriminately to the public, and that the owners of the mall did not even object to the message being conveyed. And it turned on the handwavy claim by SCOTUS that forcing the mall to allow such activity would not interfere with the mall's operations.
But allowing Nazi speech would certainly interfere with Twitter's operations.
A better comparison might be California's Leonard Law. There's no binding precedent supporting it and IMO it's unconstitutional, but nobody seems to complain about it.
I had never thought about the Leonard Law until a year or two ago when these notions of compelling social media outlets to distribute speech against their will came up. Before that, I had just thought of the LL as an interesting, quirky California law. Then it dawned on me that, in fact, that law is problematic in a similar way.
" But allowing Nazi speech would certainly interfere with Twitter's operations. "
Or it could enable Twitter to squelch competition from right-wing startups such as Gab, Truth Social, Gab, Parler, Gettr, etc. (and maybe from more established conservative venues such as Instapundit, Stormfront, and The Volokh Conspiracy).
Recruitment is not part of the university's communication of ideas.
Also, obviously, this.
A bigot idea being a mainstream opinion does not make it any less bigot. Also I suspect that the issue was "biologically male", which is a hateful statement.
Science is hateful now, eh? Sounds about right.
"Hatefulness" is decided by societal norms and morals. If society decides it is not hateful, it is, by definition, not hateful.
Facebook and Twitter opinions are not real life.
Not really. Hate speech is pretty specifically speech that threatens, intimidates, incites violence against, or urges the disenfranchisement of some subgroup.
This FB post... if you really try hard you can see it as hate speech, urging the denial of opportunities to trans women. But I don't think it's healthy to always assume the worst. The sentiment is best construed as suggesting that trans women compete in men's sports, not that they should be excluded from sports completely. Of course, it's designed to be intentionally provocative by leaving that out, but that doesn't make it hate speech.
Referring to trans women as biological men is in no way hate speech. It's insulting, rude, and offensive, but not hate speech.
"Of course, it's designed to be intentionally provocative by leaving that out"
I think it's generally a bad idea to interpret omission of something as deliberate provocation. And particularly so in a very short comment that doesn't go into great detail.
The comment that FB censored simply said, "Biological men have no place in women's sports"; How do you get "Or men's sports, either!" out of that?
The general position of most people on 'trans-women' is that they're men. Period, end of story, treat them as such.
And don't men get to compete in men's sports?
"Biological men have no place in women's sports" uses the language of hate speech. (Remember, I'm of the opinion that it's not hate speech here. We're deep in the weeds.) As in "black people have no place in civil society" or "women have no place in the military."
She would have been less of a hater with something like "Biological men should play on men's sports teams." See? Less punchy, because it's less provocative, because it doesn't use the language of hate.
So, in your view, a yard sign saying "hate has no home here" is hate speech?
Almost. Excluding people from your home doesn't quite count as disenfranchisement though. And hate is more of a temporary state of mind, not a class of people.
It is also true. Does that matter?
I a small minority of the US population declares that the earth is flat, do we all have to agree?
But you need to understand that a nutcase idea being opposed by mainstream opinion doesn't make it into a courageous truth. It's just a nutcase idea held by people who are obnoxiously self-righteous.
So much so that they have the gall to try silence the mainstream opinion!
But a true statement.
We've come to this: "biologically male" is hate speech.
Yet I was recently told by a soon to be supreme court justice that Biologists are qualified to decide who is male and female, hence the term "biological male"
Was that hate speech? If so then she needs to resign.
I don't think that's what makes it hate speech. At least I hope not, since then "hate speech" will have lost all meaning, like "racist."
I think it's that, taken under an extremely strained, literal reading, it suggests that trans women should be excluded from competitive sports.
Taken under a perfectly natural reading, it shouts that to the heavens.
I think I misread that.
Literally, no straining at all, it says they should be excluded from women's sports. But that's because they're men.
Hate-speech alarms are going off in the relevant offices; anti-hate officers are being dispatched to your location to reeducate you ASAP.
Who wants to exclude them from all competitive sports?
I suppose there are such people out there, though I've never encountered them.
The reasoning, if it can really be called such, is that you're excluding them from women's sports, but they're women, (Remember, that they're actually men is literally unthinkable, a thought crime, so can't enter into these people's 'reasoning'.) so what other sports are there for them?
Indeed any female, biological or self-declared should be able to compete in what are usually called "men's sports."
Generally they would be, with context dependent limitations intended to prevent injuries. It's really more a matter of "Everybody" sports, and "Women's" sports, because for fundamental biological reasons women can't successfully compete in most sports against men.
Well, except that if you let women who were capable compete in men's sports, women's sports would just be less-capable women's sports, and nobody wants that.
There are hardly any sports where men and women can compete on nearly equal, but not equal, terms; ie where one or two superstar women could compete with the men, but generally there's a big gap. Maybe chess, where Judit Polgar is the only female player (so far) to really compete with the best men. And I believe she didn't bother to compete in women's events, so your diagnosis would be correct there.
Otherwise it's either the best men are way better than the best women, or the two sexes can compete on absolutely equal terms (eg equestrian events.)
No one said they should be excluded. They are saying it's a fair debate as to whether it's fair to let biologically male people compete with biologic females, for those females.
This was a triumph for feminism not that long ago, to get funding in schools for female athletics. Yet if biologic males can jump in and dominate, that kind of squashes the promise of it.
Should debate over this be rejected out of hand?
"Indeed, the more data there is that indicates conclusions that are not politically correct, the more everyone has to ignore, deny, or reinterpret them. That is why the demands of political correctness become ever more far-reaching. They involve inversion of fundamental social realities for the sake of a cause that is understood to be absolutely fundamental. Such a project, if it is to be kept up, must increase in fanaticism as the profundity of the barriers to its success becomes more apparent. As the logic of the situation develops, speaking directly and openly on an ever broader array of issues becomes disruptive and out of place in any orderly discussion. Hence the constant narrowing of permissible opinion, discussion, and association..." (source)
Wicked burn, especially as it's right on target.
Not at all. They can compete in the men's competition. ANY woman should be able to. And if the guys lose, so be it.
2020 showed us what Facebook, Twitter, and the other tech/communication giants can do if they favor one side, the Democrats, in the partisan political battles. Now the Democrats are crying foul since Musk may buy Twitter and not use it exclusively to help Democrats. Oh the irony. The Democrats act like authoritarians but condemn the Republicans for complaining about Democrats' abuses.
This is so funny to me... the reason Democrats were concerned about the Musk Twitter takeover was because the only thing worse than having a big public company in charge of that much content is having one dude in charge.
Remember, Democrats don't believe that Twitter and Facebook are biased against the right. That's just a right-wing fantasy. Left-leaning posts get blocked all the time too. The Democrats just haven't made it part of their victimization narrative.
But that's not even the funny part. Democrats are intrinsically skeptical of corporate power, including big tech and other big content owners like News and Sinclair. As the right gets increasing paranoid and populist, it's starting to turn against corporate America too. Which is an unbelievable gift to the left.
The punchline really is Disney. The left has hated Disney for decades, including its cozy relationship with Florida. Go DeSantis!
"Remember, Democrats don't believe that Twitter and Facebook are biased against the right. That's just a right-wing fantasy. Left-leaning posts get blocked all the time too."
In order for a left-wing post to get blocked, it literally has to be something on the order of, "Hey, let's go to that Trump rally next week and break some noses. I'll bring the brass knuckles." And even left-wing content like that wasn't blocked as recently as a few years ago; Antifa were freely discussing plans to commit assault and battery through most of Trump's time in office.
In order for a right-wing post to get blocked, as noted in the OP, it merely has to express a mainstream opinion.
Not even that will get banned.
Iran comes to mind.
Along with a large number of anti-semitic rants by the squad.
"having one dude in charge" ... like Mark Zuckerberg, who owns about 60% of the voting shares of Facebook? Like Jeff Bezos or Mike Bloomberg, who own major traditional media companies?
Some more major individual "owners" of media companies:
Michael Bloomberg - Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Media
Rupert Murdoch - News Corp
Donald Newhouse - Advance Publications (Conde Nash, etc)
Anne Cox - Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Jeff Bezos - The Washington Post
John Henry - The Boston Globe
Sheldon Adelson - The Las Vegas Review-Journal
Joe Mansueto - Inc. and Fast Company magazines
Mortimer Zuckerman - US News & World Report, New York Daily News
Laurene Jobs - The Atlantic
Marc Beinoff - TIME
Patrick Soon-Shiong - Tribune Publishing Co.
Warren Buffett - 70+ city papers
and of course,
Carlos Slim Helu - The New York Times
But yes, as he says, the problem would have been the new occurrence of Musk owning a majority of a media company like Twitter. Because that had never happened before.
The issue isn't "one dude" . . . it is that the relevant person in this context is Elon Musk. He is a proven liar and a reckless, autistic, disaffected, immature, impulsive, unreliable, vindictive, authoritarian jerk.
I wouldn't call Musk a "pedo guy," though . . . because what kind of person would do that?
(If Musk turns out -- against all odds and evidence -- to be telling the truth about purchasing Twitter, though . . . character-deprived misfits have rights, too.)
If he's all that, what do you care? He will run it into the ground.
It's because he doesn't plan to toe the existing line of approved speech that bothers you.
Did you miss the 'right-wing misfits have rights, too' part? That indicates I do not oppose Elon Musk's alleged effort to acquire Twitter.
Other than that, though . . . great comment!
What do you have against autistic people? Bigot clinger. Fortunately, one day asshole bigots like you will be replaced with younger, better, less bigoted and backward Americans.
It is a useful descriptor; in this context, it explains much of Elon Musk's poor conduct and many of his substandard statements.
Your capacity for self-delusion is astonishing.
It must astonish you that guys like me have been kicking the asses of guys like you senseless in the culture war for decades. How do you try to explain it?
That's exactly right. (Except for the individual magazine and newspaper owners. That's a relatively small scope, there's lots of diversity and competition in those spaces.) The left doesn't want to see Twitter added to that list. It's a disgusting and scary list. How many Bond villains have been modeled directly on those guys? We'll it's at least one. :p
I guess there is one more caveat. A majority-controlled public company (Zuckerman) is still better than a privately-held one (Musk).
Why is this news ?
Indeed. Marsha just can't get a break:
Twitter shuts down Blackburn campaign announcement video
With censorship of conservative ideas and advocacy solidly in place on all Big Tech platforms and Soros DA's in place in most major cities, soon political violence against anyone right of center is going to not only become the norm but acceptable if not outright encouraged.
We can already see this in occupied territory where left wing radicals refuse to enforce the law when it comes to Antifa. There are more than enough examples out of Portland and elsewhere. What is coming is going to make the BLM riots and lawlessness of the summer of 2020 look like childs-play.
Outright oppression and repression enforced by leftist brown shirts is coming. Get ready for it.
You sound quite cranky, Jimmy the Dane.
Replacement will bring solace.
A guy just murdered 10 people because trolls kept hammering about replacment theory.
No, no, no -- it's all a conspiracy theory! No one on the left really talks about replacement! Misinformation!
Replacement is a fact, you bigoted, ignorant clinger.
Old conservatives die off. While that occurs, better, younger, less conservative young people enter our electorate on 18th birthdays. The net result is fewer conservative Republicans and an improved electorate.
No project. No conspiracy. No theory. No grand design. Just continuing improvement of the American electorate in the normal, natural, desirable course.
And that's especially so given how mainstream the opinion is: A Gallup poll from May 2021, for instance, reports that 62% of U.S. adult respondents took the view that "transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that match their birth gender" (34% took the view that they "should be able to play on sports teams that match their current gender identity"). I realize that these measurements are always imprecise, and sensitive to the details of the question. But it seems pretty clear that this isn't some marginal, "extremist" view.
Why would that have any relevance to a question whether Facebook, for instance, enjoys power to block or permit content at pleasure? What legal argument, or non-legal principled argument, suggests publishers owe publication more to mainstream views than to others?
Reading is fundamental. At no point did he suggest that it was relevant to the question of whether Facebook, for instance, enjoys power to block or permit content at pleasure. What he said was "I don't think it's good for democracy that platforms with the reach and importance of Facebook (which the Supreme Court has characterized as "the modern public square") would purport to thus restrict the expression of opinions."
And I agree with that! I resoundingly reject the "common carrier" canard, and think social media companies have unfettered constitutionally protected authority to block or allow any speech. But I think it's bad if they use it to block discussion of mainstream ideas.
Nieporent, you have a choice on this one. You write:
But I think it's bad if they use it to block discussion of mainstream ideas.
Either we answer that with, "Why, who cares?" Or we read it to imply some kind of consequential implication, which you hold in reserve. Please do not try to have it both ways.
The key to guess how you read it seems to be your support of EV, and his surprising endorsement of:
. . . which the Supreme Court has characterized as "the modern public square"
No one should be complacent about a notion that public discourse in this nation depends on legal sacralization of a giantistic private publisher, which otherwise retains a right to publish or not at pleasure. Whatever my reading comprehension may be, it tells me that kind of legal sacralization is an end toward which EV's commentary has been trending. There is no need to guess. He has set forth proposals.
Maybe you are along for that ride too. I oppose the ride. Consequent to Section 230, private publishing in this nation slipped badly out of adjustment. Public policy is urgently required to restore the nation's publishing economy to conditions of profusion and diversity among competing, smaller, private publishers. That previous default condition remains in retrospect the only safe harbor ever found for press freedom.
Consigning the public square to one or a few super-sized, government-fostered giantistic behemoths is more like sailing chartless into a hurricane. It is unwise.
I am of course not trying to have it "both ways." That cliché requires some sort of mutually exclusive options. But I did not proffer any such thing.
There is not in fact, any contradiction in what I said. Statists of all stripes, left and right, have trouble grasping the notion that one can disapprove of something and argue against it, trying to persuade people not to do it. and yet not believe that anyone has the power to compel it.
Twitter has the absolute right to do X. Twitter should generally not do X. I believe both. No contradiction.
Where does the, "modern public square," enter into your private preference. Or do you take that as empty blather from the Supreme Court?
I think it's a reasonable metaphor and certainly colors my view as to how entities like Facebook and Twitter should conduct themselves. I think it has no legal significance, in the context of this discussion.
(Remember that the point of that phrase in Packingham was that the use of social networking sites — collectively, not any specific one! — is too important to justify the government completely forbidding someone from using them. It said nothing about any obligations this imposed on any particular site.)
Thank you for that about Packingham. It adds insight. Also? A bit of perplexity, because something about the way EV used the term did not make that part clear to me.
Nieporent,
Do (or should) Frontier, Charter and Comcast have a First Amendment right to determine what speech they carry on their infrastructure as well in your view? If not, is that solely because of their use of "public" rights of way?
If you're asking my view, it's that the only possible justification consistent with the 1A for "must carry" type regulations applicable to cable companies is that these companies are routinely granted geographic service monopolies. If you're going to get the government to declare that others are not allowed to compete with you — that nobody else is allowed to run wires to people's homes to carry certain programming — then you can't rightly complain that the government then imposes some requirements on the programming you carry.
To me, that's a narrow rule that does not turn on the mere size of a business, or arguments about natural monopoly or network effects or anything like that; it applies only when one has the exclusive government franchise to provide cable service in an area.
Your reasoning makes sense to me, but I don't think ISPs usually have governmentally granted geographic monopolies. Many places I've lived had a choice in broadband providers. Those that didn't, in several cases the monopoly was granted by a private homeowner association. In another case the location was in the outer edge of an alternative providers' serviceable area and the connection was inferior, but the the connection was still there and there was no governmentally granted monopoly. My understanding is local governments often charge exorbitant prices for nonexclusive use of certain rights of way, which isn't quite a governmentally granted monopoly but could be close, since the exorbitant pricing acts as barrier to entry along the lines of natural monopoly reasoning but is from government interference.
Anyway, if we assume there were some significant geographic area where government creation of monopolies was not an issue, should these providers have a free speech right to decide what content they will transmit on their infrastructure?
M L, do any of those ISPs practice publishing activities? If, for instance, you are a somehow (how?) a contributor to a publication (what?) of which Comcast is the publisher (by what standard?; is it assembling and curating an audience?; selling advertising?; on the basis of audience access to users' contributions?), of course they would have to have a right to determine what to publish, or not publish. But is any of that happening?
Yes.
By the way, I may have interpreted your prior question. Were you asking about those companies as ISPs or as cable companies? I had assumed the latter, because there are cases in which the courts have upheld content-based requirements for which cable channels the cable companies must distribute.
Getting rid of Section 230 will make things *worse*, by raising the entry bar. Facebook can handle it. The next attempted competitor may not.
"Why would that have any relevance to a question whether Facebook, for instance, enjoys power to block or permit content at pleasure?"
It doesn't, and if you'd read closely, you'd know EV wasn't arguing Facebook doesn't have that power. He's arguing they shouldn't use it that way.
I closely read this by EV above:
I expressly said in my post that it's not illegal for Facebook to exclude whatever it wants. As to whether it has a First Amendment right to do so, if the law were changed to restrict such exclusion, I think that's a difficult question, though the answer is probably "no,"
After studying the, "not," and "has" parts, and deducting for hypothetically this part — ". . . if the law were changed to restrict such exclusion, I think that's a difficult question, though . . ." — I conclude EV said there that the government may without offense to the 1A change the law to force Facebook to carry content on a public carrier basis. Take out the hypothetical part, and EV's quote reads this way:
I expressly said in my post that it's not illegal for Facebook to exclude whatever it wants. As to whether it has a First Amendment right to do so, . . . the answer is probably "no,"
Seems clear to me. Of course, Nieporent has criticized my reading ability, so I have to take that into account. Did I get it backward? Even if I did, I do not find the notion reassuring that it is a "difficult question." Especially not in context that EV has been repeatedly arguing in favor of public carrier status for internet platforms.
Read it very carefully yourself, tkamenick, and tell me what you think EV said.
First off, Facebook is not a publisher - they have no employment or compensated contractual relationship with the people who post content on FB.
Second, the idea that people have the right to control their property is the relevant concern.
If Facebook wants to ban all Republicans from their site (note: intentionally ad-absurdum example), they have just as much right to do that as RedState.com has to ban Democrats from theirs.
The seizure of a private, for-profit business's private property for the purpose of turning that property into a 'public square' is as reprehensible as any other nationalization of private assets.
FFS. This is not about the opinion, it's about the obviously hate-word-filled form in which it is expressed.
Someone sounds a bit jealous again.
Not quite sure whether there's a silent sarc.... around your comment. But in case there isn't, what would the non hate-word-filled form in which to state the opinion ?
And what was the "jealous" thing about ?
"Team qualifications in competitive sports should be based on physical characteristics, not gender identity"
If that's too long...
"Preserve women's sports for those without testosterone"
It's not offensive if you refer to the sports-people as 'trans people', for example, or any other euphemism except 'biological male' which is the words bigots use to express hatred.
And the jealous thing is self-explanatory, it's blatantly obvious that most of the posters here are jealous.
But referring to trans people would make it a different idea. Senator Blackburn has no objection to trans males competing in women's sports, only to trans females doing so. And the reason why she objects to trans females competing in women's sports and not to trans males, is precisely because trans females are biological males and thus have all the physical advantages of a body that has been marinated in testosterone since the first trimester of pregnancy.
Thus her statement precisely targets (a) who it is that she doesn't want to see competing in women's sports, and explains (b) precisely why. Thus even if she were to substitute "trans females' rather than "trans people" for "biological males" that would leave out half her meaning - the reason why these particular people should be excluded from women's sports.
So have another go. What could she say that expresses the thought that she wants to express, without you finding it offensive ? At the same sort of pithy length.
Still mystified by the jealousy. Who's jealous of who ? Or what ?
or any other euphemism except 'biological male'
I find this fascinating. Why would you expect people to speak in euphemisms - is there something shameful about being a biologicial male ?
"Biological male" is a linguistic accommodation by the speaker to cater for that part of the English language community which takes the view that it is possible to be male without being biologically so. This latter group hears "male" and understands something different than "biological male" and so communication between this group and the wider world becomes difficult unless somebody makes an accommodation. Some users of male in its traditional sense have therefore kindly modified "male" into "biological male" when speaking to the neologists, for clarity.
What form of words should they be using to convey the idea of a male, to be understood in the sense of biological sex rather than gender ? They have already added 250% to the length of the word they used to use. How much more do you want ?
I agree that "biological male" isn't the problem here. It's "has no place in." Clearly, Facebook's algorithms get worried when they see "{gender} have no place in {role}" as in "women have no place in politics."
I don't think it's hate speech here, and you can create other benign examples, but the post is I think intentionally using the hate speech template to suggest animosity towards trans women. That's enough to make it deplorable but not itself hate speech IMO (although looking at Facebook's definition of hate speech, it's a little more loosey goosey than I would like).
I don't view Blackburn's comment as hate speech, nor do I think it likely she intentionally used a hate-speech template to belittle trans women. However, I can see why an algorithm would conclude it's hate speech because of the template (but then, a human should have intervened to overrule the algorithm).
That being said, I believe Blackburn is mistaken and a categorical ban on trans women in men's sports does more harm than it prevents in many cases. As such, I can see how some would view her statement has hateful.
The Left has no argument to counter the notion that biological men have no place in women's sports, so they seek to defeat it by the muzzle.
What about superstition-based arguments? Have gullible, bigoted clingers suddenly lose their taste for (some of) them?
On the other hand, yelling "She's female!!!" about a biological male isn't at all "superstition-based"!
No, it is not superstition.
It is a lie.
Is there any flavor of superstition that is not a lie?
There's such a "square peg in a round hole" feel to this whole attempt to drag Facebook's censorship policies into the purview of the law.
Yes, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that what FB is doing is censorship, straight up. It couldn't be any clearer, they aren't hiding anything. FB has one political view, and they won't abide any dissent.
But no, you cannot use the tool kit of the law to remedy this. It'd be like bringing carpenter's tools with you to go fishing. No doubt you could kludge something together that might work, but the tools are just not fit for the purpose.
Every tool made by man is made with an intended purpose and its natural scope is the subject of that purpose. You can't make Facebook into a genuine public square or even a public utility. Facebook isn't a utility. If it were to vanish today, another would pop up in its place tomorrow.
What you can do to Facebook is bring market pressure, not legal pressure.
"this whole attempt to drag Facebook's censorship policies into the purview of the law."
Yes, there is that attempt, but I hope you notice that EV is not engaging in it.
Yes, I did notice that. In fact that's his closing paragraph:
While I certainly agree with this sentiment, I would have added a more forceful call for the legal community to stay firmly in its lane. Just because people clamor for the justice system to "do something" doesn't mean it's the right agency to do it.
Oh please! If University of Pennsylvania had told "Lia" Thomas "Sorry, but you can't be on the women's swimming team because you're not biologically female," you'd be the first in line screaming for the justice system to "do something!"
That's a pretty good example, actually. Yes, I would be first in line -- first to remind everyone that the "free" in "free association" actually means something.
That's a bit misleading. It's correct that his comment above does not engage in it. But he has been endorsing that attempt; that's the upshot of his "common carrier" argument. He thinly disguises that as a "I think it would be constitutional to do that," as opposed to advocacy, but only thinly.
"If it were to vanish today, another would pop up in its place tomorrow.
What you can do to Facebook is bring market pressure, not legal pressure."
People have tried doing that. They come under immediate attack from all sections of the IT ecosystem if they don't agree to adopt censorship policies similar to FB's.
Even if they manage to survive that, the network effects are such an advantage for FB that it barely moderates the extent of the censorship they can get away with.
"People have tried doing that."
Yes. Keep up the pressure. You'll see a change if enough of you feel the same. Heck, even Twitter, which famously didn't even make money, is under the knife.
"Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." ― Samuel Johnson
I'm just saying that network effects, even ignoring anti-competitive collusion of the sort directed against Parler and Gab, mean that once you're the dominant platform, you can get away with a considerable amount of abusive moderation, and still not lose your position.
If you think network effects lead to market failure like this, you really need to take a hard look at capitalism generally, because network-effect driven brand loyalty is a pretty common situation across lots of sectors.
You've accidentally stumbled into revolutionary communism.
"network-effect driven brand loyalty is a pretty common situation across lots of sectors."
Can you give some examples of the sectors which you think are as concentrated as say facebook, but largely unregulated?
For largely unregulated, you need to stick to the Internet. So Amazon, eBaym Ticketmaster.
But I really don't think that's required for the argument. Apple products. Credit companies. I recall learning it's a big thing with banks.
So, Brett's thesis was "once you're the dominant platform, you can get away with a considerable amount of abusive (whatever ... ed.), and still not lose your position.". And you are disagreeing with that, I think?
So, isn't amazon a good parallel to facebook, in that A)it's domination of online sales makes it hard to replace, and B)pols are arguing it needs to be constrained/broken up/whatever to stop those behaviors?
Similarly, banks routinely take heat when pols disagree with their lending decisions. And for Apple, guess which prominent senator wants to break it up as well?
And Ms. Warren seems to agree with Brett that facebook does bad things and should be regulated, as opposed to merely having the free market sprout many competing facebooks.
Out of links, but search for:
"A days-long feud between Sen. Elizabeth Warren and Facebook intensified over the weekend as Warren openly accused the company of "taking money to promote lies.""
"US presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren accused Facebook of "corruption" on Thursday for sponsoring an event featuring a rare appearance by conservative Supreme Court Justice..."
"Warren has become one of Facebook's key antagonists after first calling for it and other Silicon Valley giants — such as Amazon, Google and Apple — to be broken up."
Broadly speaking, Brett's view that facebook's market dominance justifies extra rules doesn't seem all that unusual a position. Facebook, Apple, banks, etc all seem to be treated similarly in this regard.
My thesis is that under current law, network effects don't make you a monopoly.
I'm not sure that's wrong, but there are absolutely costs to the kind of overhaul of antitrust that requires - it punishes success, and it reifies preferences that are not structural, and thus hard to nail down.
It's actually pretty far left to argue that at some point companies get too much power just by consumer preference and gotta be broken up.
"companies get too much power just by consumer preference"
I'm not sure that's an accurate description of what Brett thinks the problem is. If the number of people who like Coke >> the number who like Pepsi >> the number who like RC Cola (do they still make that?), that's not controversial.
The facebook argument is that once it reaches a certain size, new competitors face steep barriers. I should offer the caveat that I don't do facebook, so this is second hand from friends, but when you sign up facebook makes it easy to find other people who graduated from Podunk High in '92, and other basketweaving graduates of State U in '96, and other people who worked at MegaCorp's Louisville facility in '98. A new startup competitor can't do the same. And if my daughter wants to advertise her babysitting service to neighbors, she obviously wants to use the platform they all use. It is pretty fundamentally different from, say, buying a subscription from a magazine where it doesn't matter if my neighbors subscribe to that magazine or not.
The argument is that even if I go into my basement and write a new platform that 99% of people would prefer to use *if everyone else also used it*, no one will because everyone else is on facebook. That's fundamentally different from me coming up with a new brand of shampoo which people can buy whether or not their neighbors like it.
It's not unusual, Absaroka, among the really progressive arm of the Democrats. I'm not sure it's wrong, but it's definitely some pretty anti-capitalist rhetoric coming from a conservative.
Just another sign of the right turning increasingly reactionary - hitting the enemy institution of the moment is more important than any ideologic project.
Network effects have nothing to do with brand loyalty, Sarcastr0. Totally unrelated. In fact, they can drive people to stick with brands they seriously dislike.
So you do think network effects are monopolistic.
I thought so to until some commenters here showed me I was wrong. Turns out that's really bad economics, because network effects are everywhere.
It's orthogonal to brand affection, but not to brand loyalty.
States could ban Facebook and all of their subsidiaries from government computers and networks and otherwise refuse to interact with Facebook in any way that might benefit Facebook.
States need to start doing that whenever one of these companies interferes with communications of anyone on any electoral ballot within the state.
I agree with you that police aren’t the correct tool for this job. Saying no to them is the correct tool.
Exactly. FB is an entertainment company - not a utility, not a public square. And they have a right to censor if they so choose.
Any attempt to alter this is, essentially, nationalization of a for profit business...
And we aren't supposed to do that crap in the USA.
Democrats S0 love to censor things -- it's almost like they realize their arguments are poor and unpopular
The Volokh Conspiracy -- which has repeatedly engaged in viewpoint-driven censorship against liberals and libertarians, to the point of banning one commenter for making fun of conservatives -- seems a strange forum for advancing that point.
Eugene, one might be forgiven for viewing your complaints about the quality of free speech in public discourse with a jaundiced eye. After all, over the years, you have shown scarce concern about the actual quality of public discourse. You have, instead, defended against regulation on First Amendment grounds: racist hate speech, sexual harassment, and speech attacking the validity of trans people and same-sex relationships, and have minimized the First Amendment's protections of a free "press" - while showing little apparent concern over the ways in which so-called "dark money" in political campaigns itself distorts our public discourse.
So now you're coming back to social media companies, only to express deep concern over how asinine statements like Marsha Blackburn's are being regulated by Facebook. Gosh! Now it's time to care about the structure of free speech? And you just so conveniently happen to have this whole theory about how governments can regulate social media companies in a way that requires them to host and distribute speech? I can't imagine it has anything to do with your own political beliefs, huh?
Especially when it comes to LGBTQ issues. Like the Supreme Court, you've always shown a strange solicitude for the belief that respect for LGBTQ people is just a matter up for debate, like tax policy and zoning laws. Reading in between the lines, it seems fairly evident that you have a particular antipathy for transgendered folks, to such an extent that I feel a bit sorry for queer students studying the 1A cases with you and trying to work out why the Court thinks a parade and scout troop carries an expressive dimension that a job fair does not. (To say nothing about the FEC cases surely coming on that front.) For whatever reason, straight white men just can't get over the existence of gay men and MTF trans people, to such an extent that we'll warp a body of constitutional law to create a permanent "safe space" to continue to invalidate their existence.
That aside - the problem with this complaint, Eugene, is that as far as I've seen you've never adequately developed a theory of free speech that would help us to understand what kinds of limits are compatible with a healthy public discourse, what kinds of background conditions are necessary. Here, you are just expressing "concern" over - what, exactly? How does silencing this specific statement by Blackburn (or others like it) meaningfully harm public discourse? What difference does a position's popularity make?
An actual theory could help us to understand why permitting and in fact bolstering the ability of wealthy individuals and companies to shift public discourse anonymously by spending money through super-PACs is acceptable, while limiting rhetoric by a a high-profile politician on a privately-operated platform so as to limit the risk of stochastic terrorism is not. Because from my perspective it seems like your only real standard is what aligns with the conservative GOP agenda.
" Because from my perspective it seems like your only real standard is what aligns with the conservative GOP agenda. "
That's a bingo!
(Here's another bingo for the Volokh Conspiracy fans who prefer wholesome, traditional, family values entertainments.)
It seems strange that you have not noticed that all of your complaints about EV's history of engagement with these free speech things are complaints that he has not joined you in wishing for restraints on other people's speech. And now here he comes again, deploring (but not seeking to apply the heavy hand of the law to) Facebook's restraints on Senator Blackburn's speech.
Have you not noticed the relentless consistency with which you desire other people's speech to be silenced, and the relentless consistency with which EV takes the opposite view - favoring fewer restrictions on speech, whether imposed by law or by private actors ?
It seems not :
as far as I've seen you've never adequately developed a theory of free speech that would help us to understand what kinds of limits are compatible with a healthy public discourse, what kinds of background conditions are necessary
for otherwise you would not be failing to notice the giant, though placid, elephant strolling through the room - EV's oft repeated theory is that more speech is good, bad speech should be countered by better speech, and censorship is a bad thing. And, so far as the law goes, the boundary is Brandenburg.
As to policing the "quality" of public speech, the policing is for the listeners, not you.
You need to face facts. All that gesticulating and shouting against fascists has turned you from pig to man.
for otherwise you would not be failing to notice the giant, though placid, elephant strolling through the room - EV's oft repeated theory is that more speech is good, bad speech should be countered by better speech, and censorship is a bad thing.
Lee Moore — You have that right, I think, as far as EV goes. But a problem is that EV does not go far enough, not by a long shot.
EV's advocacy has been persistently, repeatedly, incessantly, made from the point of view of speech. Every policy he promotes seems predicated on building an optimal experience for, "speakers," on the internet. Unsurprisingly, that goes down well with internet commenters. To them, he seems a champion.
There are two big problems with that approach. The first is that most of what has been controversial on the internet has not been speech. Nobody is much complaining about using the internet for email, which is speech. Instead, they complain that internet platforms are not fairly serving their liberty to publish.
Publishing is not mere speech, and EV's advocacy strays very far from protecting press freedom. More the opposite. The notion of making Facebook a common carrier is in fact advocacy to censor a private publisher, by compelling it to publish speech the publisher disapproves—and, depending on what advocacy gets acted on by government, perhaps also compelling Facebook not to publish.
As you can see, speech freedom and press freedom may at times be in tension. EV seems to resolve that tension on behalf of speech freedom, and against press freedom, every time.
Which brings us to the second problem. Giant internet publishers at the center of ongoing controversy today are novelties in the experience of publishing law. Most laws still in place to govern publishing were not drafted by a polity which featured anything like the Facebook phenomenon. The laws were tailored instead to rely on a publishing world configured differently, with private editing prior to publication for everything published; with opinion diversity among publishers, who competed to curate audiences catering to every variation of imaginable opinion which could be made market-worthy; with profusion of publishers encouraged by market factors linked to advertisers' needs to avoid paying for maximal geographic reach, which could raise prices for localized advertising-customer bases, but not much advantage them to compensate.
All those factors have been overturned in today's revolutionized publishing market. Baleful side effects have been anything but trivial.
The public life of the nation has suffered horribly from the loss of prior editing—however much that has come to be regarded as a plus among internet-as-speech fans. Libel, an evil in itself, has prospered to the point of practical impunity. Effects of libel accumulate to mobilize political sentiment against press freedom. You have no doubt noticed the many threads on this forum, detailing outlandish attempts by state and local governments to somehow constrain libelous and libel-adjacent commentary on the internet. Courts can hold that kind of thing at bay with difficulty. The more of it there is, the more it becomes the barometric pressure of the political atmosphere, predicting storms ahead.
Giantism enabled by the suspension of prior editing requirements has winnowed national news gathering capacity, as advertising which previously financed operations of dispersed smaller publishers transferred to the new giants—who have not even tried to develop a business model to replace the news gathering their businesses have destroyed.
More generally, it is impossible to create policy and law to cherish press freedom without attention to the business activity press freedom depends on to thrive. Particularly important in that calculus is freedom of publishers to choose what to publish, and to decline at pleasure contributions which they disfavor. That key activity publishers must be able to practice unfettered, to curate audiences, and to sell advertising. Press freedom cannot do without that liberty for publishers.
Without a viable business base to keep it going, the notion of a free press independent of government becomes a pipe dream. For no other industry is laissez faire economic policy so tightly linked to factors beyond mere economics—links which touch on questions of free expression in the most direct way.
None of EV's advocacy with an eye to optimizing speech freedom on the internet is protective of any of those press freedom necessities mentioned above. Just the opposite. To treat internet publishing as nothing more complicated than free speech by other means, is to disparage by implication everything which press freedom requires to endure and thrive.
That tension is not responsive to critique as elite advocacy, nor related in any way to partisan political considerations. It is all built into, and comes from, the way the activity of publishing must be structured to function and endure as a free press.
EV seems not to give that any thought. Maybe he doesn't need to. Perhaps this blog is not an ongoing publishing business, but more a hobby, without need to compete or prosper on its own to assure a future for its advocacy.
" EV's oft repeated theory is that more speech is good, bad speech should be countered by better speech, and censorship is a bad thing. "
That may be Prof. Volokh in theory.
In the reality-based world, the record establishes that he is a repeated, viewpoint-driven, partisan censor.
Publishing is not mere speech, and EV's advocacy strays very far from protecting press freedom. More the opposite. The notion of making Facebook a common carrier is in fact advocacy to censor a private publisher, by compelling it to publish speech the publisher disapproves—and, depending on what advocacy gets acted on by government, perhaps also compelling Facebook not to publish.
As you can see, speech freedom and press freedom may at times be in tension. EV seems to resolve that tension on behalf of speech freedom, and against press freedom, every time.
This is your old hobby horse, but I'll join you for a canter. First, and trivially, you mistake the meaning of freedom of the press, which has nothing to do with publishers, but simply refers to the printing press, ie the sort of speech that you print. You being anybody. But let's not worry about that - let's do publishing, and for the avoidance of doubt, nothing I have to say has anything at all to do with the law or the constitution. It is solely a philosophical commentary.
As you rightly say, publishing is not mere speech. Indeed although you can publish your own speech you can also publish other people's. You can publish a whole newspaper composed of nothing but other eople's advertisements, which conveys nothing at all of your own speech, except the meta-statement "I am willing to publish this stuff."
Thus publishing does not (meta-statemets aside) necessarily involve your speech. It may do so if you happen to agree with the articles, as is common with journals that have a certain line, or if you also publish your own speech. But it is not necessarily so, it depends on the circumstances.
If we imagine an old style dead tree newspaper - how would it be if the government required a "right of reply" at the bottom of each article, by someone with an opposing view ? Would that actually infringe upon the publisher's freedom of speech, and how ? Well, it might clog up space in his newspaper for other material that he would have published but now can't, some of which might have been his own speech. It also might disrupt the expression in the article itself, if the article was linked to a following article. eg suppose the article was a "factual" account of some terrorist atrocity, and you wanted to follow that with an opinion piece about government policy related to the terrorist atrocity. But the government forced you to add their "factual" account between your fact and opinion piece. It would disrupt your flow, much as a heckler disrupts a speaker.
But what if the government simply required you to publish and distribute an edition of replies, each time you published your own edition. So your newspaper goes out as you wish, but then a second one goes out with nothing in it but the replies - at your expense. Let us assume that you are allowed to print in large type on every page of this supplementary edition - THE DAILY LATHROP IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO PUBLISH AND DISTRIBUTE THIS PACK OF LIES AND NONSENSE AND ENTIRELY DISAVOWS EVERY WORD OF IT.
What now is the character of this right of reply law ? Does it cost you money ? Sure. Is it an imposition ? Sure. But does it really disrupt your speech, or the speech of those whose writings you actually wish to publish ? It is akin to saying hecking must be permitted, but it may only be done when the original speech and questions are finished, and everyone who turned up for the actual event has been permitted to leave the building. But you must pay the rent of the building for the next thirty minutes.
It seems to me that this sort of government intervention does not meaningfully impact your freedom of speech, or your writers' freedom of speech. Except in the sense of expending some of your resources - but then so does a tax.
So it seems to me that while such regulations applying to publishers might be deplorable, whether they actually infringe the speech of publisher or published, depends on the details. Whether they absorb resources that could have been used for more speech (more so than a tax); whether they put words in the publisher's mouth, ie imply the publisher rather than the government (or favored replier) is speaking, whether they disrupt the speech that the publisher wishes to publish, by getting in the way. If they do not do any of these things to a meaningful extent, then they are just like any other regulations - annoying, expensive, impertinent, illiberal - but not necessarily an imposition on free speech.
You're way out on some limb or other, but to connect this back to Eugene and Facebook, he's said if I remember correctly that common carrier status could probably only legally apply to the "hosting function" of sites like Facebook, but hasn't really said what that means. (You're implying something similar, that requiring a paper to "host" replies doesn't necessarily reach 1A.)
Imagine if the notice received by the Senator didn't say "no one can see this post" but rather "people can only see this post if you send them the link to the page, and the link cannot be shared on Facebook, you have to use some other mechanism for sending the link." That would satisfy the hosting function, but it doesn't solve any problems. The Senator (and the right) would be just as whiney about being censored as they are now. Facebook and Twitter aren't used for their hosting functions, they're used for content curation, promotion, and distribution, which are all publishing-related functions.
You're way out on some limb or other
No doubt, but it is an extraordinarily well sign-posted limb :
for the avoidance of doubt, nothing I have to say has anything at all to do with the law or the constitution. It is solely a philosophical commentary
Lee. Moore, a few points.
1. We should all be allowed to discuss philosophically whatever rights we think people should have, and how they should be tailored. Or whether certain rights should exist at all. It is foolish to let assertions of rights shut down debates about them—an observation which goes back to Ben Franklin, at least.
2. That ability to discuss does not make enumerated rights go away, and press freedom is an enumerated right.
3. Press freedom will not permit, in any court under present law, the taxation of published content. Which seems to be what you propose.
4. The, "right of reply," you hypothesize is a useful point of discussion, to illuminate, among other things, why it is not true to insist press freedom is only about access to a printing press (as a matter of history that insistence is poppycock; I am glad we can leave that aside).
The more productive point is that use of any publishing method, whether a printing press, broadcast media, the internet, what have you, incurs expense (your right of reply seems to notice that). There is no press freedom without publishing. There is thus no press freedom without expense. Some mechanism, some business model, available to the publishing process, must pay for that expense, or press freedom cannot endure.
It is critically important to expressive freedom that publishing have financial power to support itself independently—independently of government, and independently of other social and economic interests. Dependence on any material support but that available from publishing activity itself is always corrosive to expressive freedom.
That makes publishing notably unlike speech, which can be practiced cost-free. You cannot constructively conflate speech and publishing, nor, on the same principle, make only one thing out of speech freedom and press freedom. They must be distinguished, because they do not work alike.
5. A point of further distinction has to do with the means to defray that expense which press freedom incurs, and which speech freedom does not. Because those means must be satisfied, press freedom cannot be understood to involve nothing more than expressive freedom of contributors, via some publishing method. The publishing method must be paid for to exist. So press freedom must also include support for business capacity to pay the publishing bill, and, less-obviously, but indispensably, liberty for the publisher to reckon the impact of expressive decisions on business prospects. The publisher must remain free to adjust expressive decisions with an eye to commercial results. For a moment, keep that in mind, to be returned to.
6. Almost every commenter about social media seen on this platform, in other news media, everywhere, ignores those points about publishing as an activity separate from speech, and about press freedom and its expense. Instead, those commenters, en masse, hone in narrowly on one point and one point only—optimizing according to their own lights whatever expressive experience they prefer. They appear to suppose that is all there is to it. They imagine tacitly—without even self-awareness—that publishing capacity pre-exists, and the only challenge is how best to seize that capacity, and exploit it to serve preferred ends. For that reason—the reason that their demands overlook and ignore the means necessary to deliver them—advocates of that sort may rightly be branded utopians.
7. So now, return to the point above—the need for the publisher to adjust expressive decisions with an eye to commercial results. In a great many cases, the means to do that touch on questions related to sale of advertising. That has been so for centuries. A principal question relating to sale of advertising is how may a publisher so manage expressive resources as to mobilize and curate an audience attractive to a marketplace of would-be advertisers. That is the most common business model to support publishing. It dominates publishing business practice. Other models exist, but could never mobilize comparable resources. We can ignore them for now.
Infringe publishers' power to manage expressive resources, and the ability to curate audiences to sell as a product to advertisers is impaired. Advertisers will not tolerate seeing their brands and messages alongside content they judge repugnant. It is the job of a publisher to understand that, and manage it as a constraint. Deprive a publisher of power to accomplish that, and everything else about the publishing enterprise comes immediately in question—including the question of whether press freedom itself can endure. Want of material capacity threatens everything.
The essence of publishing activity is to manage expressive resources to attract an audience, curate the audience to make it attractive to advertisers, and sell advertising to pay the expenses inherent in all the activities—activities of both business management, and expressive dissemination, and perhaps to pay authors, and perhaps to gather useful or newsworthy content, and perhaps to profit. That, at least, has been the dominant practice since considerably before the founding era.
In light of the discussion above, perhaps you can grasp one further distinction, between the separately enumerated rights of speech freedom, and press freedom. The former is a right to expressive freedom, pure and simple. The latter is a right to practice a means—in furtherance of expressive freedom as an end, to be sure—but the right itself protects a particular means, a means best understood as a bundle of activities, a means with power to serve as a force multiplier for expression.
In that respect, the right of press freedom can be understood to be somewhat alike with your assertion, about a right to a printing press. But do not overwork the similarity; it comes with a caveat that what is protected is notably more extensive and complicated than access to something almost magically presumed to pre-exist.
So now, in conclusion, I can finally offer a point I have recently noticed needs more clarity and emphasis. It is this: my advocacy for press freedom should not be taken, as it typically has been taken by critics, to be about policy preference. My advocacy is based on what is not possible, on what is possible, and on what is sustainable.
Press freedom understood as nothing but service to preferences for self-expression is not possible. That ignores too much of the activity which it necessarily presumes. Hence, it is utopian.
Press freedom confined to small-scale access to pre-existing resources largely supported by other uses, is possible. That was part, but only a minor part, of the press freedom idealized as pamphleteering in the imaginations of non-historians, especially those who now comment so frequently against institutional media.
What extended that model, however, and made it sustainable and useful for larger purposes, was that a major part of the capacity to mobilize resources necessary for publishing owed its existence, even then, to institutional media. In that marketplace, they alone were the actors which had power to satisfy the material needs necessary to keep press freedom in operation, and make it real on a scale necessary to build a new nation. It is hardly surprising that the founders saw fit to protect practice of that institutional publishing activity as a right. They knew as a matter of practical experience their nation-building mission could not have been accomplished without it.
Thus, my advocacy is to forget utopianism, and stay mindful of experience—both the experience of the founders, and today's experience. I am not saying that is better policy. I am saying press freedom cannot be kept sustainable in any other way.
Prof. Volokh’s devotion to free expression increasingly sways with right-wing preferences. The issue of picketing at the houses of (certain) Supreme Court justices presents the most recent example illuminating this regrettable, although now predictable, point.
Since I at no point advocate for restrictions on hate speech, etc., I am inclined to conclude that you're not sufficiently sophisticated on the subject to be worth engaging. You're simply assuming that I must be "for" whatever Eugene is "against," due to the fact that I disagree with him here.
"More speech is better than less speech" is certainly a received truism that some treat to be self-evident, but more care needs to be taken in (i) defining what we mean by it, (ii) explaining how and to what extent it is true, and (iii) being precise about how it applies in particular circumstances. We need, in other words, a theoretical treatment and working-out of the bare assertion. One that I have never seen Eugene refer to.
That is a terrible attempt at a gotcha. Why is more speech acceptable and less speech not acceptable? Where on earth do you see some sort of contradiction there?
And of course whatever one thinks of Blackburn's statement, limiting it has nothing to do with any "risk of stochastic terrorism."
Is more fraudulent speech better than less? More libelous speech better than less?
I would seem to be in favor of letting social media platforms regulate their sites in whatever way they deem fit, without the government setting up whole regulatory regimes for making them act more or less like "common carriers," whatever that is supposed to mean in that context. If Facebook or Twitter prove too onerous in their policies, then let competitors try their hand at the same business model and see if they can do better. I seem, in other words, to be in favor of more speech in that context. Not less.
More to the point - Eugene is making a complaint here about the structure of public discourse. Free speech does not simply arise in a vacuum. It has to be structured in important, fundamental ways, in the same way that a free market economy relies on basic rules and regulations to exist and function smoothly. This being the case, asserting simply that "more speech is better than less speech" is simplistic to the point of being facile. Yes, yes - "more speech," indeed.
But no one would spend any time at all on Facebook, much less share their political beliefs, if it were purely unmoderated. Some moderation is required to make the service comprehensible; other moderation is required to make it profitable to maintain. Even Eugene's highly strained argument in favor of regulating social media companies has to take this for granted. So the question, then, is just to ask what kinds of content regulation tends to promote free speech, and what kinds of content regulation limits it. And to answer that question, we need more than jingoistic truisms.
Progressives seem to want to short circuit political arguments by declaring that their position is the One True One. But while you can announce that you personally refuse to debate something, you can't actually prevent other people from debating it.
Obsolete, deplorable, gullible, vanquished right-wing bigots have rights, too!
Including the right to freely express their whimpering and whining as they continue to lose the culture war to their betters.
(Unlike conservatives and their preferences, Keith and Willie never get stale and worthless!)
Actually, I thought we were discussing specifically a moderately successful effort to do exactly that.
"Especially when it comes to LGBTQ issues. Like the Supreme Court, you've always shown a strange solicitude for the belief that respect for LGBTQ people is just a matter up for debate, like tax policy and zoning laws."
Well, duh. Of course it is. In fact, more so.
Look, you've got a right to not be assaulted, a right to not be robbed, a right, (Which coexists very uneasily with the 1st amendment!) not be be defamed.
But you've got no right at all not to be disrespected.
Look, you've got a right to not be assaulted, a right to not be robbed, a right, (Which coexists very uneasily with the 1st amendment!) not be be defamed.
I have a right not to be robbed? People get robbed every day, with a six-gun, or with a fountain pen. Does the government make them whole?
But you've got no right at all not to be disrespected.
Are you talking about a legal right? Are you talking about being disrespected because you are LGBTQ, or some other reason, like you're a crook, say.
Because I do think it's clearly wrong to be disrespectful of someone because they are LGBTQ, whether there are any legal rights involved or not.
I'm talking about legal rights AND moral rights, for any reason whatsoever, Bernard. People disrespecting you is part of THEIR liberty, not yours.
Yes, Brett. It is part of their liberty. Liberty is often abused.
If you knew anything about the law, Brett, you’d know that by “respect” I am referring to employment and housing discrimination, free speech rights of LGBTQ people and allies, and so on. Our constitutional law has so many unusual and sui generis cases on the rights of religious people vis-a-vis LGBTQ issues that it sets a clear pattern. Just as our modern free speech and free exercise jurisprudence owes a lot to the religious idiosyncrasies of a Christian sect many decades ago, in fifty years we’ll have a body of free speech and free exercise law that will be very strangely shaped by this generation’s idiotic bigotry.
The general pattern of civil rights law is that the demand for private non-discrimination erodes all liberties, because the choices it takes away from people are all expressions of those liberties.
Brett, I was responding to clarify your misreading of the term "respect," not to give you an opportunity to sound off on some other, unrelated bugaboo.
Anyway, your comment is exemplary in the sense that conservative justices use the same kind of "principled" and "general" language to obscure holdings that have a funny way of always cutting in a particular political direction. For instance, I have little to no doubt whatsoever that, if I were to say that I ought to have a constitutional right to discriminate against people whose religious views I find to be morally abhorrent, you would cite the special status afforded to religious belief in the Constitution as cutting against it. Or, sensing that this would be plainly hypocritical, you might tentatively agree that I ought to have that right - while implicitly understanding that there is virtually no threat whatsoever that the courts would ever agree with me.
That's how so much of this jurisprudence breaks. Catholic justices ruling against abortion rights and LGBTQ rights on grounds that they never expect to be used against them. Because they won't permit it.
"For instance, I have little to no doubt whatsoever that, if I were to say that I ought to have a constitutional right to discriminate against people whose religious views I find to be morally abhorrent, you would cite the special status afforded to religious belief in the Constitution as cutting against it. "
Well, you should doubt it, because, I wouldn't so argue. Because, you know, you're not the government. And it's the government that the 1st amendment binds, not anybody else. You're perfectly entitled to discriminate on the basis of religion, sex, race, what have you. In doing so you're just exercising your own rights, after all.
Which is really the point: The 14th amendment specifically, (And in pointed contrast to the 13th amendment.) applies to government. "No State shall..." "Nor shall any State..." It's the government that is prohibited from discriminating, not individuals.
In taking that governmental obligation and applying it to individuals in the form of a supposed right to be free from private discrimination, the government has found an excuse to erode the rights the Constitution actually does guarantee to individuals.
And now you're proposing a right to be respected. What does that even mean? I can't give you the finger? I have to humor your delusions?
There's are so many problems with this post, you can't list them all, but this one needs to be called out:
Silencing public statements by anyone on a topic is by definition harming public discourse on that topic. Silencing a US Senator for speech on a campaign issue is a much larger harm.
I'm sorry, I can't avoid it: Do you really think there is a right for anyone to be respected? Did you even think that through before your wrote it?
By definition! Well then, argument over! You win, Toranth - you’ve simply assumed that you’re right!
Since you seem too simple to understand: The person being silenced is harmed. The person being silenced is part of the public. The person being silenced is attempting to participate in the public discourse and being denied.
In what way does this not harm the public discourse?
Very well, then, since you think you can:
Explain how silencing a viewpoint from the public in public discourse helps public discourse?
The mere fact that you didn't even attempt to engage with the argument, but instead ran directly to failed attempts at mockery, shows you don't even have an argument in mind.
Can you see it? There it is, hiding in the shadow cast by the penumbra of his opinion! Squint hard and read between the lines. It helps to close one eye. No, wait ... close both eyes.
Maybe... but it would be a powerful gesture for Eugene to defend a post like "Jews have no place in the Republican party" rather than (yet another) anti-LGBTQ one.
Why not pick a pro-trans post to defend? FB and Twitter bans of pro-trans content are in the news constantly.
Why don't I pick a pro-trans comment? Because I'm not picking on the content, I'm picking on the methodology. Lord knows there are enough words written in these pages that no one should ever have to "read between" them. It's hard enough to engage with what's directly in front of us.
Sorry, I had changed the subject back to Eugene... even though he claims to be doing content neutral legal analysis, he has a tendency to pick examples that play into the conservative victimization narrative. There are plenty of other examples out there If you search "Facebook trans censorship," the hits are like 9 to 1 pro-trans censorship to anti-trans censorship.
" If you search "Facebook trans censorship," the hits are like 9 to 1 pro-trans censorship to anti-trans censorship."
I did that search (not logged in, clean browser cache) and didn't really see that.
One persistent complaint was that facebook likes people to use their legal name, so trans people who want to use a new name but haven't legally changed their name are upset. I'm not sure that policy is driven by anti-trans animus, though.
Other than that, I didn't see a lot of examples. Could you share a few of the more egregious ones?
Seems like there are five main categories. One is the names like you mentioned. One is people who quote hate speech in order to expose / rebut it. One is shirtless photos of trans men! 🙂 One is people trying to reclaim normally offensive slang. One is people "attracting controversy."
Here's one case: https://www.washingtonblade.com/2020/10/30/transgender-activist-once-again-banned-from-facebook-page/
I'm not suggesting any of this is due to anti-trans animus on the part of the social media companies. But then, I also don't think they have anti-conservative animus. So you know, feel free to perceive whatever animus helps you out with your victimization narrative. I'm sure the LGBTQ community does perceive anti-trans animus here, in fact a good number of the articles are about that.
Let's go through these.
1)One is the names like you mentioned - already discussed
2)One is people who quote hate speech in order to expose / rebut it.
One of the examples I saw fit that. The tl;dr was that X posted something along the lines of 'look at the racist hate email I got' (not clear if this is a race or trans thing). Facebook banned him. He appealed saying 'I only posted what I received'. Facebook reinstated him, circa 12 hours elapsed. My take is that facebook bans posts based on certain language, and that the first algorithmic pass on a ban doesn't care whether the unacceptable language posted is originated by the poster, or that the unacceptable language is merely in a quote.
If you find this objectionable, what would you like facebook to do instead?
3)One is shirtless photos of trans men!
I'm guessing here ... facebook allows pics of shirtless XY's, but not XX's? Do the shirtless trans men perhaps have chests that might visually appear to be shirtless women, with or without mastectomies?
Assuming, arguendo, that banning bare chested women on nudity grounds is wise, what would you have facebook do instead?
4)One is people trying to reclaim normally offensive slang.
I'm not sure what we are talking about here. Could you provide an example?
5)One is people "attracting controversy."
I'm confused again ... example?
I'm still trying to find good examples of pro-trans viewpoints being censored, aside from the incidental cases of 'no one can use the word XXX' or 'no one can post photos of naked XX chests' or 'everyone must supply a legal name'. Is there anything along the lines of a viewpoint like 'trans women are real women' being censored?
Here's an example: https://www-wired-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.wired.com/story/facebooks-hate-speech-policies-censor-marginalized-users/amp?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D
I think this category (#4) is the most similar to the case in the original post, where the choice of words is what triggers the block filter, not the sentiment.
Oh in response to your other questions, I don't find any of this particularly objectionable. It's mostly just due to the state of the art, which isn't very advanced yet... but seems to be slowly improving.
The Facebook response says: "No one else can see your post."
Highly ironic, because by censoring her post, countless more people have now seen it than would have otherwise.
That's certainly possible.
This highlights the fact that censoring "mainstream" opinions can actually be less dangerous to free speech and the free exchange of ideas, than censoring more dissenting voices or just slightly outside of the mainstream speakers. Nonmainstream speakers may be disseminating nonmainstream opinions, or just purely factual information and news that gets censored and does not get reported or discussed in mainstream discourse.
Whereas anything that is "mainstream" is by definition already widely known and freely available.
Yet many learned comments here seem to assume and imply "yes yes they must not censor mainstream opinions. Any nonmainstream opinions, or even facts for that matter, are of course fair game." Must be good to be the gatekeepers who decide what is mainstream.
I'm not remotely convinced that Facebook should be "regulated like a public utility" as some say, but it's interesting to consider the analogies and comparisons being made.
One of the main reasons given for the idea that, say, your ISP doesn't have a First Amendment right to decide what content they carry, is that they use "public" rights of way. But practically speaking, Facebook also uses and depends on those same rights of way and the communication lines in them, even if they don't "own" the physical lines. Social media is a huge percentage of internet traffic. Moreover social media companies have been granted the rights to unfettered use of those lines by the government, at least in some places and degrees such as by net neutrality rules. Speaking of special governmental benefits, Section 230 could also be seen as that, although I don't think that's right except maybe at the margins.
One of the other main reasons is the economic "natural monopoly" argument where it is supposedly efficient and good for there to be a monopoly or limited competition in certain cases, and therefore this justifies all-encompassing government regulation. These arguments generally seem pretty loose and unpersuasive in my opinion. And that's why it seems like you could apply those arguments to Facebook fairly easily, just cite network effects, the fact is many users (especially older users) have zero other choices for a social media platform where their friends and family can be reached.
If Facebook is a "modern public square", then the government should probably seize/buy it from Meta already.
Because the bottom-line is that they're a company in the business of making money. They make that money by selling advertising, and part of that "selling advertising" bit is putting ads next to desirable content. As a consequence, a large part of their vaunted "algorithm" is to push up desirable content so they can slap ads next to it and transfer a user's good feelings from the content to the ad.
Throw in that they will kow-tow to government demands regularly, whether it's privacy concerns from the European Union or censorship requirements from China, so expecting them to take an American perspective on censorship just isn't reasonable.
All of which is to say... the SCOTUS got it wrong: they're not a public square, and so long as they're a for-profit company, they won't be. If it's that important that a Facebook-like entity exists to be a "public square" that's something the government needs to get on, because no private social media company is going to fill that need.
I guess it depends what you mean. Many many regular folks feel that Facebook is "the new town hall" where people go to discuss issues.
Yes, misconceptions about the business model of a social media company are widespread.
I could hold a "town hall meeting" in my house. And if I don't like how that conversation is going, I can end it and kick everyone out. If I don't like what one specific person is doing, I can keep the meeting going and kick that one person out.
If you don't like that I, a private citizen, has that control over a "town hall meeting"? The answer is for the town to build their own meeting space, not to strip me of my Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association.
When it comes to physical places, this is intuitively understood. People understand that holding a town hall meeting in a Coca Cola plant is a privilege, not a right. People understand that if the local rich bastard is letting you hold meetings on their front lawn, that this arrangement will only continue so long as the local rich bastard likes what you're doing. People understand that if you're renting space, that you don't own that space.
But make it online, and suddenly people get confused and think private is public.
So yes, many "regular people" think that. And they're wrong. If you want a town hall, build one. Because that rich bastard isn't going to always smile on you.
When I say there are many regular folks who feel that Facebook is the new town hall where they discuss things, I don't mean that they think Facebook doesn't have a right to censor. This predates the recent era of censorship. I just mean, literally, it has taken the place of the town hall where people used to gather, and it is where they discuss issues now. They're not wrong. You are conflating the notion of a "modern public square" or a town hall entirely with certain legal speech principles that come to mind for you, which is why I said it depends what you mean.
We actually did build a public town hall called the Internet.
Early on, everyone was excited about how small-d democratic it was -- anyone could host a web page and reach the whole world!
But it was a mess, since there's no way to find anything. People know who their neighbors are, they know where their local town hall is located. But how do you get where you want to be on the Internet?
So along came Google and solved that problem... but added an access barrier. Now you not only had to set up a website, but you had to get in the good graces of Google's algorithms, either by paying Google, paying third parties to trick Google on your behalf, or tailoring your content to be Google-friendly. In the 2000's, complaining about Google page rankings was the fashionable equivalent to complaining about social media today.
Even with Google in the picture, creating your own website is non-trivial. So you started to see businesses emerge to help people get their content online more easily. First GoDaddy (simplified website hosting), then blogspot (hosted articles), then MySpace (hosted personal content), then Facebook (curated personal content), then Twitter (curated quips). Each step lowered the barrier to entry, but also moved away from content-agnostic hosting back towards old-school content publishing.
So... the Internet failed to live up to the early hopes of becoming the world's town hall. But it's because the concept makes no sense. You can't put the whole world into a ginormous town hall and expect order to emerge. The Internet is just too big to be useful on its own. So Google, Facebook, and Twitter stepped in to solve the scale problems by adding some structure. In doing so, they became the de facto gatekeepers... you can still go into the global Internet town hall on your own and put up your website, but no one's going to notice you without help from the gatekeepers.
Is there another option? The analogies to the public square / town hall both depend on hyper-local organization. Is that even interesting here? If your neighborhood had its own Twitter-like service, limited to just your neighbors, would you use it... instead of Twitter? I suspect not.
The situation we're currently in would be like if we all lived in one of a handful of enormous apartment buildings, like FaceVille and Twitton, with no public areas around... no parks, no sidewalks, no town halls... or at least, no convenient access to anywhere like that, since it's a pain to go outside. (Imagine the apartment buildings are all connected together with convenient sky bridges called Googwalks.) The apartment buildings themselves have plenty of meeting spaces, but, in an understandable effort by the building owners to maintain a civil environment, they come with usage restrictions.
What's the best way to introduce some useful public property into that situation? I don't have any idea. In the physical world, we have the typical "traditional public forum" like parks and sidewalks, built in from the beginning. We failed to get that right with the Internet. It's going to be a hard thing to retrofit.
One thing I do know is that the answer isn't a government takeover of one or more of the apartment complexes. There actually already are "public option" apartments you can live in if you want to, but nobody does because they're run down and full of crazies. For example https://groups.google.com/g/alt.politics.libertarian (yes, sadly Google provides the best web interface even to these bare-metal Internet forums).
"If your neighborhood had its own Twitter-like service, limited to just your neighbors, would you use it... instead of Twitter? I suspect not."
Actually people do use it, it's called Nextdoor and is extremely popular. You are in a hyperlocal social network limited to your neighborhood where you live. They claim 1 in 3 US households as users. And unsurprisingly, it looks like they are being criticized for allowing various wrongthink to be expressed there.
Beyond that there are also things like local Facebook groups.
I'm familiar with Nextdoor, but it's not really a replacement for Twitter in the same way that meeting at your local Town Hall is a replacement for meeting in your local landowner's drawing room.
The problem with the Town Hall / Public Square analogy is that it doesn't grapple with the scale of global social media sites.
Facebook is a soul of social media. Check these Facebook comments.
Queenie. Great argument. What is your preferred pronoun, Honey?
Queenie. Sorry, but reality is not hateful.
We need to distinguish between the different usages of "not uncommon".
Thinking guys pretending to be girls shouldn't be permitted to compete in women's sports is 'not uncommon' in the sense that well over half the population agrees.
Thinking that it's hateful to correctly identify somebody's sex is 'not uncommon' in the sense that you would have trouble fitting everybody who agrees into the same hotel. It's actually an outlier viewpoint.
Chasten Glezman is married to Pete Buttigeig. That is a fact.
Queenie. Really great comments, Hon.
Queenie. That was a brilliant argument. Bravo.
Queenie. Thank you. I had never heard of this before. Now, I am more aware, thanks to you.
So support or action from Congress now would also transform social media censorship into state action?
False. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Pete and Chasten are gay married.
Correct. They are friends. They cannot birth children together.
I see the argument for laws that would prevent discrimination by banks and social media companies (which is what Ben seems to be arguing for). But they are special cases, requiring regulation due to the unique nature of what they do. But you're bringing in housing and employment. You want to impose non-discrimination laws on private landlords and private employers. I don't think either housing or employment merits special government regulation, of the kind that banks (and, arguably, social media companies) do. I would even say that imposing such regulation -- requiring private landlords to rent to someone they'd rather not, requiring private employers to hire someone they'd rather not -- is, in fact, totalitarian.
Lets point out that you asserted that Pete and Chasten are not married, and saying that is not hateful. Yet they are married, and you are denying it out of hate. Do you also kick kittens down the street for fun?
"Do you also kick kittens down the street for fun?"
The first answer that came to mind that the dope who can't spell his own name might offer:
"Only if they are married to cats of their own gender."
On further thought:
"Of course, doesn't everyone?"