The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Great Replacement Theory" and the Perils of Zero-Sum World Views
The racist Buffalo mass murderer's ideology drew on dangerous ideas common on both the ethnonationalist right and the far left.
The racist murderer who killed ten people in Buffalo on Sunday was a devotee of "great replacement theory": the idea that there is a plot to "replace" white Americans with immigrants from poor, nonwhite nations, and thereby seize the resources of the former for the benefit of the latter and of various nefarious elites. GRT advocates often also attribute the plot to the Jews, adding an anti-Semitic twist to their racism. The Buffalo shooter targeted blacks because he hoped reducing their numbers would bolster white interests.
Sadly, this is not the first time GRT has inspired mass murder. Similar ideas were espoused by perpetrators of mass murders targeting Muslim immigrants in New Zealand and Hispanics in El Paso, Texas, both in 2019. The Buffalo killer praised both of these earlier atrocities in his manifesto.
While GRT originated among marginal extremists, its precepts have been embraced by a good many mainstream right-wing politicians and political commentators, including Tucker Carlson. This helps underscore the right-wing pedigree of the theory. But devotees, including the various mass killers, also espouse ideas traditionally associated with the political left, including hatred of major corporations, and concerns about the degradation of the environment (which they attribute in large part to immigration). The Buffalo killer, for example, describes himself as an "eco-fascist," and opposes non-white immigration in part because he thinks it destroys the environment (along with "uncontrolled urbanization" promoted by corporate elites).
What unites the racist, nationalist, and seemingly left-wing elements of these peoples' world views is the assumption that the world is a zero-sum game: immigrants can only gain at the expense of natives, the rich at the expense of the poor. Whites can only thrive and prosper by excluding blacks and other groups, and so on.
Unfortunately, this kind of zero-sum thinking goes far beyond a few extremists, and is not solely confined to the nationalist right, though the latter is a particularly egregious and dangerous manifestation. What I wrote in the aftermath of the New Zealand and El Paso killings remains relevant:
Some may find it surprising that the perpetrator of the recent horrific New Zealand terrorist attack that killed fifty Muslim worshipers in two mosques, combined seemingly right-wing nationalism with seemingly left-wing socialism and environmentalism….
But in this case, the terrorist's worldview is less unusual than it might seem. A similar combination of views is evident in many xenophobic nationalist movements, both past and present. Socialists and nationalists have their differences. But they also have much in common, including a zero-sum view of the world.
Anti-immigrant nationalist parties in Europe often combine hostility to nonwhite immigration with support for extensive government control of the economy. That's true of such cases as the National Front in France (now renamed as the "National Rally") and the AfD in Germany. Such parties often also often blame immigrants for real and imagined environmental degradation, just as the perpetrator of the New Zealand attack does….
Similarly, the perpetrator of the New Zealand attack argues that environmentalism and immigration restriction "are the same issue [because] the environment is being destroyed by over population,…" Some influential far-left environmentalists have also advocated coercive population control, including defending China's cruel "one child" policy….[note: the El Paso killer also uses the supposed need for population control as a justification for keeping out immigrants].
Racial nationalists and socialist far leftists share a common zero-sum view of the world under which some groups can succeed and prosper only at the expense of others. It is easy to see how that sort of world view often leads adherents to believe that drastic action—including violence—is essential to ensure that the "right" people end up as winners in this cruel zero-sum world. I discussed this crucial commonality in greater detail here…
Zero-sum thinking need not always lead to racial and ethnic hostility, or xenophobia. It is also often channeled in other directions, such as hostility to the wealthier members of one's own ethnic group or society. In some cases, it leads to a combination of both fear of foreigners and fear of the wealthy.
For example, unexpectedly popular Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders echoes Donald Trump's hostility to international trade, while simultaneously arguing that ordinary Americans can only be economically successful by redistributing vast wealth from "the 1 percent." Until recently, he also expressed considerable hostility towards immigration, denouncing the idea of free migration of labor as a plot by "the Koch brothers" and other malevolent billionaires, which would impoverish the working class and end up "doing away with the concept of a nation state…."
Fortunately, most nationalists and socialists aren't willing to go so far as to personally commit acts of terrorism. But all too many are willing to advocate large-scale coercion that inflicts great harm on large numbers of people, in order to ensure that they and their preferred causes don't end up as losers in a zero-sum world. Everything from barring migrants fleeing horrible oppression, to separating immigrant children from parents in order to deter them from entering, to coercive population control, to massive expropriation of property, and repression of "capitalists" in order to transfer the nation's wealth to "the people." The list can easily be extended….
There is no easy antidote to the spread of dangerous zero-sum ideas. But perhaps the beginning of wisdom is to recognize the danger they pose, and understand why they are wrong…
Far from enriching natives, immigration restrictions often end up undermining their freedom and prosperity as well as that of potential immigrants. Standard economic estimates indicate that free migration throughout the world would double world GDP, with many of the gains going to natives, not just migrants. Natives lose the gains from trade with immigrants, and also suffer from the civil liberties violations inherent in efforts to keep out and deport migrants. Rich and poor are not locked in a zero-sum game either. To the contrary, they can prosper together through mutual exchange, and historically often have.
Pollution and global warming are genuinely serious problems. But addressing them does not require massive coercion or keeping millions of people in poverty. Historically, increasing wealth has actually led to reductions in pollution (after an initial increase early in the process of industrialization), as wealthy societies can more easily afford to invest in reducing pollution. Even when it comes to the particularly difficult challenge of climate change, there are ways to combat that simultaneously increase prosperity rather than stifle it. They include reducing regulatory obstacles to using nuclear power, cutting back on zoning restrictions that make it hard to build denser housing, and offering prizes for the development of new "clean" energy technologies. Where regulation is needed to cut back on carbon dioxide emissions, it should take the the scalpel form of a revenue-neutral carbon tax, rather than the meat cleaver of coercive population control and government takeovers of huge portions of the economy.
I would add that some forms of left-wing identity politics also promote the idea that relations between ethnic and racial groups are a zero-sum game. For example, prominent "anti-racism" advocate Ibram X. Kendi famously wrote that "[t]he only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." On this theory, black progress is dependent on discrimination against whites. White nationalists and GRT advocates hold much the same view - differing primarily in their evaluation of which groups they want to win out.
The zero-sum ethnic nationalism of racial majorities is much more dangerous than the espousal of comparable ideas for minorities by the likes of Kendi. Among other things, majority groups generally wield more power (especially in democratic societies) and thus can inflict greater injustices as a result of adopting misguided ideas. But the two types of zero-sum identity politics can be mutually reinforcing, with one helping to promote the other.
Recent events provide yet more evidence that the interests of immigrants and natives - and those of different racial and ethnic groups - are, mostly mutually reinforcing, rather than mutually exclusive. Immigration restrictions harm natives in a wide variety of ways, including by reducing scientific innovation of the kind that led to the development of first two successful Covid vaccines. I discuss more such synergies of interests (as well as ways to alleviate potential negative side effects of migration by means other than exclusion) i my book Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom.
Minorities and whites could massively benefit from reforms that expand freedom and opportunity for both, such as breaking down exclusionary zoning, thereby making it easier for both to move to areas with greater opportunity, thereby making our entire society more innovative and productive.
Most fundamentally, immigrants, natives, and people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds could benefit from a society that rejects zero-sum thinking and deemphasizes racial and ethnic identity. We should instead promote universal liberal principles, of the kind that inspired the American Revolution and the abolition of slavery. These ideas have led to enormous progress, even if the nation has never fully lived up to them. And they can achieve still more, if we give them more of a chance.
NOTE: Because perpetrators of terrorist attacks often undertake them in large part to gain fame and media attention for themselves and their ideas, I have refrained from mentioning the names of the men who committed the New Zealand, El Paso, and Buffalo attacks, or linking to their "manifestos." I have instead linked to others' summaries of their ideas. But both the names and the manifestos are easily found online, for those who wish to see them.
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" combined seemingly right-wing nationalism with seemingly left-wing socialism and environmentalism…."
Combining nationalism and socialism? That's a new one for me.
/sarc
Any ideology is negative and can lead to great evil. So I wouldn’t get hung on socialism because UK and Canada have socialized medicine and they aren’t about to start exterminating groups of people. So Bushism is an ideology that took hold of millions of Americans and it led to us slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims…and Bushists were opposed to socialized medicine!?!
That is a long post. Did Ilya mention the source of the GRT is the Democrat staffed and run US Census Bureau? If not, he missed the biggest point. Now, I think the Census is making a math error counting Hispanics as diverse. They are really white, as Italians are. The Census disagrees and estimates the replacement to arrive very soon. like 2045.
Does Ilya say diverses are risking their lives to get inside a white country, not a diverse country. What diverse country are people taking physical risks to enter illegally, Ilya? Once we become a diverse country, the US will be a shithole, as all the other diverse countries are. Did Ilya say that?
Did Ilya offer a policy of fast-tracking Indian law profs for entry, licensure, and citizenship? There are 100000 of them who would love to replace him for $25000 a year. Why is Ilya not offering his job for replacement? Until he does, he needs to STFU.
Post millennial whites have already been replaced, as of 2020. That is why they are so quiet. They are afraid of getting beat up.
Did Ilya say the GDP would enlarge with all the increase going to billionaire oligarchs? They would crush wages for everyone and increase profits? Did Ilya disclose he attended Ivy league schools and is a bookworm? Did he say he lives around the Beltway and is a big government rent seeking partisan stooge for the oligarchs?
Did Ilya mention that Trump immigration slowing surged the incomes of all low paid workers. That cut profits and Trump reelection was destroyed by the oligarch Democrat lockdown for a weak cold virus? The lockdown was unnecrssary and killied millions around the world. Most of the deaths are fraudulently with covid not from covid. Biggest scam in history. The oligarchs scored $1.7 trillion and $2 trillion in China. Did Ilya mention illigrants are super spreaders being unvsccinated and unboostered?
Did Ilya mention that using the Buffalo shooter in a partisan discussion violates the Exception Fallacy? Did he mention those who do have no shame? They are exlpoiting a tragedy of mental illness for their tawdry partisan attacks. Now he qualifies for involuntary trearment thanks to the Supreme Court takeover of psychiatry for lawyer rent seeking. He shoild have been controlled and treated many social posts ago.
Hi, Ilya. Did you ask any Native Americans if they think the Great Replacement Theory is a crazy conspiracy theory?
think the Census is making a math error counting Hispanics as diverse. They are really white,
Actually, no. Im a dark skinned Hispanic, while my husband is as white as Casper the Ghost.
The problem is identity politics, e.g. Latinx, BIPOC, etc. We all have 99.9% more in common genetically than differences. But dont expect the Left to allow science to contradict their talking points
I bet you think white. For example, you want your kids to get an education and a family and job as adults.
It is only whites like you who want to keep people of color like me uneducated, poor and shackled as slaves without families and offspring
You're welcome
The left has some obsession with "whiteness" and the traits is has "hard work, thrift, individuality, focus on data driven decisions, science and engineering"...if you recall it was some garbage like that in the media, smithsonian and so on. Academia and the media have almost gleefully for the last few decades been forecasting the "end to white majority"...it says more about the people writing this than the supposed scapegoat of all the poor outcomes of non "white" tribes in the US. It is just bizarre that you feel you can only elevate your tribe but tearing down another in a free society. And when you attack folks..they take you seriously and some unbalanced ones tend to resort to violence. This occurs all the time over history.
The UK and Canada are exterminating large groups of people, the sick, by their socialized medicine. Commie Care is Cheap Care. They are good for physicals and vaccines. Those do have a great impact on survival. If you need expensive care, you are dead.
You are unfamiliar with national socialism?
You are unfamiliar with sarcasm?
The El Paso shooter was a progressive eco terrorist. If anyone radicalized him it would have been AOC and her heated climate change rhetoric…or maybe Greta radicalized him?!?
It's not a plot, but it doesn't help fight against the conspiracy theory when there are many prominent progressives predicting it (whites becoming a minority) will happen and cheering it on.
If one believes in a future world where race is irrelevant in daily life, then one must assume mixed-race persons will eventually become the norm. What's wrong with celebrating a world where people aren't racists?
Except that's not what the progressives are celebrating.
Democrats winning more elections and what shawn_dude posted are easily seen to be part of the same trajectory.
"Great Replacement Theory"
Where's our good Rev? With all his talk of people being replaced by their betters, I thought he was the major proponent of that theory here. Maybe he helped influence this horrible person.
The replacement I mention is not a plot, nor a conspiracy.
The replacement I discuss is, however, a fact and occurs in the normal course.
Elderly conservatives and Republicans take their stale, ugly thinking to the grave each day. At the same time, younger and better Americans enter our population and electorate through births, immigration, and birthdays.
The results of bigoted, obsolete clingers leaving our population and being replaced by younger, less conservative American citizens and voters include an improved electorate; the continuing victory of better ideas at our national marketplace of ideas; and a continuation of American progress. Our desolate backwaters are emptying, providing a better life for more Americans in modern, successful, educated communities.
This has become the American way.
For all of you wanting to hear a typical Leftist cheering on the great replacement, here is our resident half-witted bigot giving you solid proof.
Why not applaud the point that America will have fewer poorly educated racists tomorrow than it had yesterday?
I am thrilled to recognize that our population of religious gay-bashers is declining. More reasoning, modern, tolerant Americans? Yes, please!
I am heartened by the prospect of a dwindling number of obsolete misogynists and backwater xenophobes. An America with fewer disaffected clingers is a better America
These demographic changes are a welcome development. Why not be happy that America and its electorate continue to improve?
Every time a clinger is replaced by a better, younger, more modern, less conservative American in our electorate, I cheer. If Republicans want to change these trajectories, they should ditch the bigotry, ignorance, superstition, and backwardness, and get some better ideas.
To put this moron's argument a different way, every illiterate who crosses into the country looking to suck on the teat of the federal government, every cretin who claims that biological sex does not exist, every homunculus who rejects the value of Western culture, every sexual eccentric that forces the rest of society to bow to his/her/its agenda, and everyone who wants to kill more babies represents a giant step forward. Well, I teach these simpletons at the university level, and we are headed for the abyss, and I can only assume that the vacuous Rev. Kirkland will be enjoying the journey in the company of his stable of catamites, sadists, et al., which he wants to import to replace the citizens of this country, which he actively despises.
Vole, you seem to hold your students' prospects in low regard—which speaks poorly of you. The Reverend Kirkland's approach seems more likely to encourage students. Try to heed his counsel.
Pretty sure the Rev has never been talking about anything regarding race.
Weird how many people are putting words and thoughts onto liberals that aren't real. Almost as though they want to believe this philosophy that just got a supermarket shot up.
You can support Republican causes and not believe this white supremecist conspiracy. But so few here seem able to make that distinction.
If you read it, the linked Politifact [sic] article shamelessly conflates race and political party. That's the only way to twist complaints about allowing an influx of reliable D voters into somehow being a part of this "Great Replacement" marketing meme.
Shamelessly!
How many on here are doing this same thing on the right?
allowing an influx of reliable D voters
Illegals don't vote, so I'm not sure who you are talking about here.
Come on, don't lose all your remaining credibility in one post!
Voter fraud without evidence is just one more conspiracy theory.
Squeezing your eyes shut and saying "la la la la -- don't see any!" doesn't demonstrate lack of evidence.
You should at least consider graduating to the slightly more sophisticated "sure it happens, but at VANISHINGLY small rates!" crowd.
Incredible evidence.
Just, really convincing stuff.
Yawn. You're the one making an extraordinary claim held by no serious person on any part of the political spectrum, and then trying to flip the burden to me to fetch you rocks.
It's a lot like arguing with a flat earther, except you don't really believe your silliness and are just throwing out outrageous propositions for attention.
Nobody thinks that illegal immigrants vote. There's no evidence of it happening, and what would be the point?
If you are so desperate for a rhetorical victory that you need to resort to, "Out of 155 million votes cast in 2020, there must have been at least one illegal alien who voted," well, I feel sorry for you and will pat you on the head and let you declare yourself the debate winner.
"Pretty sure the Rev has never been talking about anything regarding race"
You must have him muted. He's talked a number of times in his theory about "browner" and "less white" replacement.
But here's just one example from a quick search on Google.
"Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
September.17.2018 at 12:23 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
I don't need luck. I just need the continuing improvement of America's electorate -- less rural, less religious, less white, less backward, less bigoted.
See you at the polls, Ben."
Boo on him then.
His stupidity is here well demonstrated. Less white means more bigoted, more religious, and more backward (though not necessarily more rural).
"Great Replacement Theory"
I would not know where people find any evidence to support this theory except in academia and all through left wing social media. The idea that "white people" are evil and need to give up positions of power and authority to "people of color" is widely bandied about in those circles. Further, these are the same activists that openly celebrate the decrease in the white population, even calling for open immigration from specific countries that have majority people of color to speed the process.
Need a snapshot of what the left is thinking today. Just go to Twitter (no account required) and do a search for "white people" to see what leftist commenters there think about them and their future.
Yes, Jimmy, as with every other mass shooting of Blacks, Jews and Muslims, you're the real victim here.
Right on cue, Leo!
I don't know if it wa a shooting. Perhaps it was just bullets that got lost. Just like how a random SUV crashed into a parade without any mention of a driver or how it got there. Maybe the same rings true for bullets as well. Who knows....?
The idea that "white people" are evil and need to give up positions of power and authority to "people of color" is widely bandied about in those circles
No, this is you channeling Stormfront.
You are better than that strawman. If you want examples of what the leftists hive mind thinks just do what I suggested on twitter. Then come on back and comment.
you want examples of what the leftists hive mind thinks just do what I suggested on twitter
LOL you're an utter clown.
Now that is some pure projection there.
Twitter is your source. Just twitter.
You're really not very bright.
Hope springs eternal!
Or this blog. Ilya Somin regularly promotes the Great Replacement on this blog, and advocates policies to replace Americans with non-white immigrants.
Roger S — Somin never does that. His advocacy includes leaving all the white people right here. Racists among white people suppose that means relative political decline for them, apparently because racism makes them incapable of imagining that they could make common political cause with anyone except whites. Try not to be like that yourself.
Somin has about 50 posts here on why we should import more non-whites, and thereby change American demographics and culture.
Make up your mind, Roger S. Are you concerned about culture, or are you concerned about whites getting replaced. If you equate cultural change with white replacement, you make yourself a racist by resort to a racist truism. Which is a pity, because almost no one actually advocates getting rid of whites.
Somin has never posted anything at all about "importing" anyone. That sort of language is one of the hallmarks of the white supremacists, along with using terms like "invasion."
Somin has about 50 (actually, I'm guessing a lot more) posts here on why we should allow immigrants — many of whom would be non-white, but unlike people like you he doesn't distinguish — to come here if they want. That is not "importing" them.
And of course he's not saying that we should do it to "change American demographics and culture."
There are various forms of the replacement argument, some of which are obviously true and some are fairly dubious. Given Somin's radical libertarianism, it is not surprising that he views immigration of any and all sorts anywhere and everywhere as an unimitigated boon (one of the reasons that there is no libertarian art of any consequence is that they have so little understanding of cultural/historical particularity, hence their worship of Ayn Rand and L. Ron Hubbard). For those of us who are dubious about both the theoretical coherence of natural rights arguments and the empirical goodness of mass immigration, his assertions are less than convincing.
So, some proponents of 'the great replacement' argument claim that, from the 1960s (or even the 1950s), there has been a conspiracy among the wealthy elite to promote third world immigration into the developed world in order to displace/replace the white/European working class. On the Left, this has been attributed to evil capitalists who want to destroy organized labor and replace it with dirt cheap labor. On the Right. this has been attributed to anti-white racists who want to destroy the culture of Western civilization. I seriously doubt that either of these accusations were completely accurate in the 1960s and they were especially wrong-headed in the 1950s.
However, over the past two decades or so, it has been increasingly obvious to anyone paying attention that both big capital (including big tech and big finance) and big leftism (including politicians, academics, journalists, et al.) are, in fact, engaging in just this sort of activity. Indeed, both sides regularly brag about the future when whites/Europeans will be minorities in their own countries (of course, libertarians like Somin don't actually believe that individual countries should exist or that citizens ought to have any say about who actually resides in their countries, so this makes no sauce for him).
The right-wing argument for unlimited immigration does have the advantage of honesty (e.g. we want cheap labor and we don't give a damn about our country). In contrast, the silliest thing about the Left these days is that they are so obviously dishonest about their desire for a great replacement. On the one hand they claim that whites are evil and that it will be a good day when they are replaced, but, on the other hand, when a white person calls out these charlatans on this, they claim that to mention it is racism itself. Their argument is thus, 'you are a racist for mentioning this, and we will be happy when it happens.'
Nobody's claiming that whites are evil. That's just more right-wing whining points coming from FOX/RNC (Racist News and Conspiracies).
I do think that the left overplayed wokeism and it's coming back to haunt them in various ways including fueling this conspiracy theory. But this is the same racist conspiracy theory that was applied to Chinese immigrants, Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, Catholic immigrants, and now Muslim immigrants and Mexican immigrants. It's a fundamentally racist grievance that's been around forever in this country, and the right figured out that this would be a good time to dig it back up.
In other news, Ilya's argument about "Great Replacement Theory" and related items, (Re-conservative commenters) is a liberal myth.
Glenn Greenwald covers it well.
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-demented-and-selective-game-of?s=r
What’s your opinion of Senator Jim Webb?? And what is your opinion of Valerie Plame??
Wow what a stretch you have to make to lump in left wingers. You might need chiropractic after this.
There's a kernel of truth to most bothsidesisms, but the disproportion here really does make the eyes roll.
Really? Who radicalized the NY subway shooter? The guy who drove his car into the parade in Wisconsin?
It’s not a one way street, although your political bias keeps you from seeing how it is.
Good question. Who radicalized them? With right wing shooters it's an easy answer. It floods talk radio and Fox News. With left wing shooters . . . ?
The Buffalo shooter is solidly left-wing. So is the motive of the Irvine (CA) shooter. So is the NYC subway shooter.
Which right-wing shooters were you imagining?
ha
next, you'll say Biden has a photo of Hitler on his nightstand
you are muted
Maybe you were thinking of this guy? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61488553
When you can't rebut the point, you should admit it instead of throwing a tantrum.
This is trolling. The guy believes the same thing about the “theory” as at least 50% of republicans and 99% of conservative comments on this thread. In fact, he felt SO strongly about it that he drove hundreds of miles to shoot black people shopping for groceries. Oh no, but he’s “left wing” because he said something about the environment. Who are you trying to kid with this? Yourself?
The El Paso shooter’s manifesto is pretty short and just based on that he’s a progressive eco terrorist—I doubt anyone has actually read this shooter’s manifesto. In the end if the shooter is under 27 and put himself in a situation in which he was definitely going to get captured or killed or suicide…it’s safe to say they are mentally ill.
Whether the 'Great Replacement' will actually work or not a large portion of the Left indisputably champions it in theory (if not in name).
I only read the headline but this is such an annoying topic.
Leftists write about demographic change all the time, and openly cheer on the policies that they enthusiastically adopt, such as the 1997 Flores settlement mandating quasi-open borders, for the expressly stated reason of achieving demographic change that they believe will result in permanent Democrat majorities or the implementation of progressive agenda items, or whatever. More power to them. So what's all the fuss about?
Of course the "Republicans" also want cheap labor and to destroy any labor market that is beneficial to workers, and to atomize all of human society into fungible wage-slave units in a globalist corporatocracy. I don't mean to pick on the left here.
I think the issue is how they're gaslighting by alternately openly cheering about it one day and calling it a wild racist conspiracy theory the next depending on their agenda.
Openly cheering how immigration policies will replace white people? Do tell.
Sarcastr0, you attempt a distinction which AmosArch cannot even discern, let alone heed.
Somin's OP has turned out to be a spectacularly successful litmus test to identify racist premises among the commenters.
There are plenty of reasons to like immigration and not like how badly we treat illegals other than to replace white people.
To connect that to noting upcoming demographic change requires
1) ignoring the long delay compared to other more effective policies of getting voters to vote for you,
2) the general ineptness of Democrats, and
3) Democrats to all be coordinted in their lying about why they support the immigration policies they do
4) White Democrats planning to replace themselves
5) A monolithicness among immigrants politics that is not true.
No. None of this tracks. It's just white victimization.
I agree with all of your points but what I said is also still accurate.
"The racist murderer who killed ten people . . . "
That's "The left-wing racist murderer who killed ten people . . . "
(Self-identified, cannot be disputed)
Everytime the media 'debunks' these 'outlandish' claims that progs have toyed with weaponizing immigration and demographics, I'm reminded of one Mark Potok, a senior fellow of the SPLC who literally has a poster in his office tracking the decline of the white population.
https://preview.redd.it/ymzeipty47e21.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3fe45754de3c912e2a9455b667011dece8096134
So yeah....nice try. I know you guys are so arrogant and misanthropic you believe all the 'little people' are moronic enough to buy what you are selling when its absurdly obvious that even your side believes in the GR themselves. But sorry, try harder.
Observation of current changes does not mean you're into a plot that will only bear fruit in 40 years, and isn't needed anyway based on current trends.
He's not gay. He just has posters of naked men on his wall and spends his days arranging gay encounters.
SPLC arranges what? From what I know of them, they're a pretty far left social issues pressure group.
AmosArch, is there actual decline of the white population? Maybe it is just faster growth among other groups?
How about this: people who with forethought murder other innocent people should be arrested, imprisoned, tried, convicted, and put to death.
How about that?
And the people who profit by spreading the "great replacement theory" and other violent worldviews? What of them?
There is no such thing as right-wing "socialism." ALL socialism, whether national or international, is by definition left-wing. Richard Spencer wants socialism ... for white people -- SCREW THAT!
Ilya could make a better, more honest case against "zero sum thinking" if he himself wasn't zero sum on immigration and would admit that sometimes, some people suffer and lose to immigrants, particularly poor whites and blacks, who on the margins are pushed out of some markets. One does not have to support open borders to be pro-immigration and it is dishonest to argue so.
The Buffalo guy is a left-winger and it is dishonest to argue anything else -- progressive Democrats are the definition of dishonest.
It is true that socialism is a left-wing ideology. But it is also true that some right-wing nationalists/fascists used the language of socialism, both directly and indirectly, as a marking ploy and to sow confusion. While these non-socialist imposters are now widely known and discredited, the American right uses that same confusion as a propaganda tool to some (unfortunate) effect.
If someone calls himself a socialist and advocates for socialism -- he is by definition a socialist ... and a left-winger.
What you call yourself is not what you are.
Unless you think the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a Democracy?
"Democratic People's Republic of Korea
There's your clue right there...
The problem with Somin's arguments about immigration is not that they are merely a different type of zero-sum game. He is not saying that at all (and I don't believe that anyone is actually making the argument that immigration is a zero-sum game). Somin is being either ignorant or dishonest in claiming that critics of immigration are making zero-sum arguments. Somin's problem is that he claims that immigration is a purely positive-sum game in which everyone wins, which is so obviously false that only an academic, innocent of the actual world, could believe it.
Part of his problem is confusing a zero sum and a finite sum game. It's not so much that immigration is zero sum. Depending on who is immigrating, it can be zero, positive, negative.
But he relentlessly assumes it has to be positive, and nothing else.
The economic arguments are all zero sum. I see them on this blog all the time. They're very silly, but very common.
Maybe ignorant and dishonest. If Somin were honest, he would respond to some of the good criticisms here in the comments.
Good criticism like Biden's hiring a nonwhite press secretary is proof of the Great Replacement conspiracy being true?
Yeah, why doesn't he engage with stuff like that.
What the hell are you talking about? It's right there in the name. The whole conceit behind the so-called "Great Replacement" conspiracy is the zero-sum claim that immigrants are going to come in and "replace" white people. It doesn't get any more ridiculously zero-sum than that!
Sarcastr0 was right, this is all just white whine.
No, I'm actually pretty sure replacing people can be negative sum, too.
You want to stop immigration?
No, just illegal immigration.
And before you comment that we could do that Ilya's way, by just repealing immigration laws... I'm a great believer that we should be skimming the world's cream, completely without regard to race or ethnicity. A lot of people still want to come here, we should take advantage of that.
But letting anybody who wants come here? That's stupid, it throws away the potential benefit from being selective, when we've got something people want.
The only thing stupider would be having an immigration preference for people willing to violate our laws. Which is what deliberately not enforcing our immigration laws does: We've put a filter on our border, if you're law abiding we limit entry, if you're willing to break the law, come on in!
Look, supply and demand work in labor markets. If you flood the labor market with unskilled labor, wages and employment levels for the unskilled, the poorest among us go down.
Similarly, if you flood the labor market with skilled labor, while starving it of unskilled labor, wages for skilled labor go down, and unskilled labor go up, and income inequality declines.
So I guess it's no surprised that the elites like lots of unskilled immigration, and restrict immigration by people with valuable skills. I'm a traitor to my class, as an engineer, advocating cream skimming. But still, we should do everything we can to keep the unskilled out, and attracted the skilled.
It's the least we can do for the poor, and will help our economy in general.
If this replacement theory of yours bears out, then you should want to stop all immigration - legal immigrants have a much easier path to citizenship, and they're generally nonwhite and thus viable replacements.
You also are really dumb about border enforcement. No, the border is not open. No there is nothing like not enforcing immigration laws. There is discretion in those laws, and what Dem admins do is well within that discretion. It's amazing how any change is the same as complete cancellation.
So I guess it's no surprised that the elites like lots of unskilled immigration, and restrict immigration by people with valuable skills.
The idea that immigration should take some account of countries other than America is just something you cannot understand, can you? Or the idea that potential is something you can't really tell from current training?
As usual, you have your set of ideas and anyone who differs from them must be lying to you about why.
https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2017-08-04.html#03
What he said.
Bellmore, no whites are being replaced. They are all right there. If they believe for their own racist reasons that they are incapable of making common political cause with people who are not white, that is a political problem for them to solve, or suffer for not solving. Imagine that. Racism has its downside.
You look very bad if you continue to advocate racist fantasies, while apparently supposing you offer principled arguments.
Well, of course nobody is being "replaced" in the sense of existing people being kicked out in favor of substitutes. Nobody is claiming 'replacement' in that sense.
Rather, the claim is that the government consistently pursues policies that discourage the native population from having children, while importing foreigners to replace the missing native children. It's the next generation that's being replaced, not the current generation.
In 2008, native born Americans still, an outlier among western nations, had a fertility rate of approximately replacement level, 2.07. As of 2019 it was down to 1.68, seriously sub-replacement.
Native born Americans are now dying out, we're not having enough children to replace ourselves.
The argument is that this isn't accidental, it's deliberate. I'm not entirely certain the policies that discourage having children are deliberate, but the policies that encourage massive illegal immigration in order to compensate for that lack of children certainly are.
discourage the native population from having children
Oh, a new insane theory. Who is discouraging *ahem* natives *ahem* from having children?
"People of color make up an increasing share of the US population. This will most likely benefit liberals, who will certainly try to take political advantage of it."
That is true. It does NOT prove the below.
"Not only are non-white folks breeding faster than white people, but liberals are encouraging them to immigrate to America from across the border. Eventually their kids will replace white kids, which will ruin traditional American culture and doom conservatives at the ballot box."
Neither does it disprove it.
The burden is on the people with the white supremacist conspiracy.
Can you prove that? Since the burden is on the person making the claim.
Prove what? How burden of proof works?
Are you trying to be cute?
That's not what "burden of proof" is or how it applies. What you actually did was a fallacy itself, since rs's response did not make any claims about white supremacy at all!
You often toss out "burden of proof" as an excuse to refuse to engage. And when evidence is presented, you either True-Scotsman or moving goalposts it. Your favorite response in these threads has been "that's just one guy" or "what they really meant was..." to defend people showing the broad Left-wing acceptance of the "Demographics is Destiny" theme over the past several decades.
When people like McAuliffe flat out say that minorities need to reproduce more to bring more support to the Democrats, why does that not count?
No one yet has provided any evidence at all that there is an intentional plan by the Democrats for the purpose of replacing white people, via immigration, or allowing in illegals, or any other way.
And yet y'all keep saying it. None of you are meeting your burden. Instead, you are showing a great deal about your worldview, and which race you view as Real Americans.
Your frustration when I call out proof by anecdote and nutpicking just shows how little the actual truth is part of your desires here. If some rando on twitter says something and it feels true, then generalize based on it!
Again, tells volumes about you, none of it flattering. And not much about the world.
And, again, you use "you" to make specific accusations about me for things I've never said. Stop lying, if can, for just a few minutes.
I've personally given you quotes where Democrat politicians actively encouraged minorities to "increase [their] share" of the population specifically in order to support the Democrats better. You ignored them.
Instead, you just dismiss anyone that tries to point out the history of the "Demographics is Destiny" Leftist view, and make unsupported allegations of racism.
You have also still failed to comprehend what "burden of proof" is or use the term correctly. How about you stop trying, and actually make an argument for your position?
Oh, yeah, you don't have any argument beyond strawmen, insults, fallacies, and vague insinuations.
This tells volumes about you, none of it flattering - but all of it well known to anyone that's read your posts.
That’s the problem, S. They feel no such burden. They just say something, someone takes that and embellishes it, three more add their own flair, and before long they’re all building on and spreading the story they all have a part in inventing. And then… fact!
Not quite -
They HAVE no such burden,
But they sure do FEEL such a burden. That's where this whole thing comes from.
If we're going to name a conspiracy theory "The Great Replacement," an equally accurate one would be that Republicans' secret agenda behind overturning Roe vs. Wade is to "replace" all of us real Americans with unwanted babies who will grow up and vote Republican since that's the party that saved them from getting aborted.
That's how stupid you all sound.
Somin is presenting a straw man argument. None of the killers made a zero-sum argument. Read their manifestos.
Somin’s anti zero sum mentality is extremely naive.
In reality, choice involves tradeoffs. Often sometimes with partially or fully zero sum consequences. Saying that all “liberal” decisions involve no trade offs and the loss of nothing for anyone is flat out false. Yes, we absolutely should look for opportunities to grow the pie. But we should not live in some naive fantasy world where we imagine our favored choices only grow the pie and never divide it.
Yeah? Name it. What policy choice is actually zero-sum?
Purely or partially?
Are you stalling or what? Purely, since you claim their existence, let's start there.
Randal — Who gets inexpensive access to residual helium.
Ah a great example. Of course, the starting option is just to put it on the open market and let that mechanism maximize utility. If the concern is it might run out, rising prices will balance that pretty well. If the concern is that rising prices will negatively impact certain use cases for helium that are more important than others, a policy prioritizing those use cases could be enacted (such as taxes and rebates).
Notice how the policy decisions that naturally arise when faced with a scarce resource are explicitly not zero-sum. They're about how to maximize the value of the resource across society. There will be winners (helium-dependent medical devices) and losers (clowns), and no doubt the clowns will whine about it and make silly zero-sum appeals like "if Jiff Boyzis and his Amazonian Medical Devices's helium holdings were rice, he would have a totally unfair amount of rice!" But the policy decision isn't zero-sum at all. It's value-maximizing.
Of course, corruption can add ineffeciency, and people can argue about the relative value of different helium use cases, but none of that makes the policy decision zero-sum.
"Notice how the policy decisions that naturally arise when faced with a scarce resource are explicitly not zero-sum. They're about how to maximize the value of the resource across society."
Well, they're supposed to be, anyway. I seriously doubt the actually are, much of the time.
That's because you're emotionally drawn to the promises of victimization and scapegoating that zero-sum thinking provides, and which right-wing media is all too willing to exploit.
(Right-wing because we're talking about Brett here. The left is almost as bad in this particular regard. Take the rhetoric around privilege. What better way to sell victimization and scapegoating than to dwell on other people's supposed "privilege.")
Just because something is value maximizing doesn’t mean it isn’t zero sum under one definition of the term. If we were in the desert and you needed a glass of water to survive and I would like to use it to wash the sand off my foot, if a third party were to give the glass of water to you rather than me to prevent your death, that may be value maximizing, but it is also zero sum according one definition. Your gain is my uncompensated loss.
There is an economic definition where this example is not zero sum since value is increased. But there is no doubt that in the above example your gain was my loss.
Now take the example of free trade. Say someone’s job is shipped overseas. And the person who loses their job ends up taking a worse job, has their house foreclosed upon, and ends up divorced. But the person performing the work overseas was in truly desperate straights such that the result is value maximizing considering these two people. Under your definition, even though one person’s gain is the other person’s uncompensated loss, this is not zero sum. But this situation only satisfies Kaldor-Hicks efficiency, it is not Pareto efficient.
Yes, I agree, you can twist almost any tradeoff into a dimension along which it could be described as zero-sum. And it's exactly that sort of twisted framing which so animates the grievance politics of the right and the left.
I'm sure Tucker Carlson could convince you, at least emotionally, that you deserved that glass of water, or at least half of it. Zero-sum! But why would that be the case? It's not yours. It's a completely artificial framing designed to make you feel slighted, when really, there was no reason for you to even know that the glass of water existed in the first place, let alone lay any claim to it.
Similarly, someone on the left will come along and spin a zero-sum fable to me, wondering why you and I aren't similarly situated in the first place. It's clearly your undeserved privilege that's keeping you hydrated, with your white-person-problem of a dirty foot. Boo hoo! Obviously not only do I deserve this glass of water, but I'm still way behind in water equity, and I can blame you and your privilege for the disparity. Zero-sum! Again, a totally artificial framing based on a lot of shaky assumptions.
Of course, the policy question of who should get the water isn't zero-sum at all. The zero-sum descriptions of the situation are designed simply to make one person feel victimized by the other. And it can be spun either way.
White person problem of a dirty foot?
Your racism is unbecoming.
Uh... that was in the voice of "someone on the left." Did you not understand my parable?
Thomas Sowell:
"Politics allows people to vote for the impossible, which may be one reason why politicians are often more popular than economists, who keep reminding people that there is no free lunch and that there are no "solutions" but only trade-offs."
The left's argument that the replacement is not planned is akin to arguing that if you knock over a bucket and let the water pour out without making an attempt to upright the bucket, you're not actually intending to spill the water all over.
If immigrants benefit the country they enter, then it follows they harm the country they leave. Or is this "zero-sum thinking"? I'm sure open-border enthusiasts like Prof. Somin can explain how both countries benefit.
Don't be daft. No one is saying that there are no zero-sum situations. If I have a dollar to spend on either a cheeseburger or a shake, and they're both equally valuable to me and cost $1, that's a zero-sum situation. (But you can see already how contrived it has to be.)
It's perfectly possible for someone to take an action that harms one person / entity and benefits another. Immigrating from one country to another is certainly one of them. And believe me, the day America has net-negative immigration is the day the great experiment has failed.
None of that means that policy decisions are usually, or sometimes, or ever zero-sum.
I actually learned this in policy analysis class - all policies including maintaining the status quo have winners and losers, but you can't hope to fine-tune tune a policy to the point where the winners and losers somehow cancel out in any kind of group of size.
Exactly
Your definition of zero sum isn’t good. It is basically the same as economic efficiency in the Kaldor-Hicks sense. That being the case, the way you would use the word is redundant.
First, the presumption that Kaldor-Hicks efficiency is the measure we should care about is contentious. Second, IMO zero sum is most optimally used to discuss situations where a change creates a winner at the expense of a loser as opposed to win-win outcomes. But of you think about it, that corresponds with another type of economic efficiency, namely Pareto efficiency.
Yeah no, I like it. Let's take your definition where zero-sum just means there's a winner and a loser.
I posit that there are still no zero-sum policy decisions, if we can assume that people put country first, democracy is working efficiently, and therefore corruption is negligible.
On the other hand, every policy decision is zero-sum if everyone is perfectly selfish, meaning that the only measure of value anyone uses is how much government welfare they recieve in dollar equivalents.
You may say that renders the term meaningless. I disagree. The term doesn't describe a particular kind of tradeoff. Any policy tradeoff can be framed in zero-sum terms or in win/win terms. Zero-sum describes the framing. If Tucker Carlson frames a policy choice in terms of winners and losers, that's a zero-sum framing. The policy choice could also be described as win-win. But nobody in politics talks that way anymore. It's all about grievance, meaning it's all about framing any given policy in a way that makes your constituents feel like the losers aka victims.
Whether something is win-win or win-lose is more than just framing.
I would put it this way. A very complex policy like immigration is going to involve a mix of win-win outcomes (an existing American and an immigrant choose to marry) and win-lose outcomes (immigrants drive down wages in a particular industry and/or displace workers).
If you tell the truth, there are a mix of positive (win-win) and negative (win-lose) consequences.
Now, you are right that some people only talk about the negative consequences. But it is equally distorted to only talk about the positive consequences. Reality involves both. The issue is, in truth, complicated.
I agree that we should talk about all the consequences. And I agree that a lot of the time, telling people that their sacrifice is for the greater good is not enough to make up for the sacrifice (from their perspective).
Zero-sum rhetoric is all about telling people that there is no greater good. It's zero sum. Any sacrifice makes you into a literal loser. And, worse, any pain inflicted on other people by pushing burdens onto them is a legitimate way of advancing your own interests. Since it's all zero-sum anyway, benefits might as well flow to you as anyone else.
I am concerned that MSM focuses on the Buffalo shootings, as horrific as they were of the alleged motivation of the alleged, potentially mentally ill shooter.
There seems very little coverage of the contemperanious shooting in Dallas of 3 Asians by a potentially mentally ill black person allegedly due to racial animis.
Then there was the Chinese guy who shot Tiwanese in California because he thought they ha abused him and others.
Homicidally violent people do violence for their own reasons. The Buffalo killer also railed against Fox News, so it is really unlikely he even watched Tucker Carlson. Unlike the shooter who tried to kill Steve Scalise and other Republican politicians. He was a devoted fan of Rachel Maddow, worked on Bernie Sanders campaigns, posted memes from left wing groups that talked about exterminating Republicans and took great pains to ensure he was only shooting Republican politicians.
However, you didn't see those on the right try to blame that attack on Rachel Maddow or Bernie Sanders, because they realize that evil acts are the responsibility of the person who commits them, not anyone who can in some abstract and tenuous way be connected to the killer. A little more intellectual honesty would be appreciated here. Check out Glenn Greenwald's article on the shooting for a more complete analysis.
Oh lordy. It took one second of googling to find these quotes. Rush Limbaugh:
"If you look at the TV programs and the media personalities that this guy, Hodgkinson, was devoted to, you’ll find out how radicalized he was by left-wing TV and comedy....
"He apparently loved Rachel Maddow, wanted her to run for president. The Daily Show on Comedy Central, Real Time with Bill Maher. Those are the TV shows that he recommended everybody watch. Clearly, he was radicalized."
“How many innocent people have to die before we realize that words do matter?” Fox News’ Eric Bolling asked. “Crazy people act on the crazy things they hear from politicians and celebrities.”
Michelle Malkin also blamed the attack on “unhinged” left-wing rhetoric. “Are there any decent Democrats or left-wingers in the public square willing to acknowledge the existence of their own climate of hate,” she asked, “festering with misogyny, liberal racism, and assassination fascination?”
The Federalist’s Ben Domenech tweeted that the purveyors of anti-Republican rhetoric should feel guilty about the shooting.
So, you are delusional.
The big difference between the two cases is that both Rachel Maddow and Bernie spoke out about the shooting very directly and honestly. Bernie:
"Violence of any kind is unacceptable in our society, and I condemn this action in the strongest possible terms. Real change can only come about through nonviolent action, and anything else runs against our most deeply held American values.”
Obviously GOP voices are condemning this shooting as well, but it's always a little more hedged. They don't really want to clearly condemn violence, because the right wing's grievance-stoking depends on violent delights. So instead you get like this from Tucker. Yep, you guessed it, he went straight into white victimization. In what world are white people the victims here? Tucker's:
“So, what is hate speech? Well, it’s speech that our leaders hate,” Carlson said on Monday night. “So because a mentally ill teenager murdered strangers, you cannot be allowed to express your political views out loud. That’s what they’re telling you. That’s what they’ve wanted to tell you for a long time.”
"NOTE: Because perpetrators of terrorist attacks often undertake them in large part to gain fame and media attention for themselves and their ideas, I have refrained from mentioning the names of the men who committed the New Zealand, El Paso, and Buffalo attacks, or linking to their "manifestos." I have instead linked to others' summaries of their ideas. But both the names and the manifestos are easily found online, for those who wish to see them."
Well, the names are easy enough to find. The manifesto, in this case, not so easy, because everybody else seems to be avoiding linking to it, too.
Personally, I take it as a bad sign when somebody tells you about what a document says, without linking to it so that you can confirm their account is accurate. I take it as a bad sign even when people I otherwise trust do it.
I think the reason the Zero-Sum thinking is successful is that for many fear overcomes reason. This is true for the left and the right. Their fear prevents them from seeing the possibility of a win-win situation if they take the chance and trust that immigration benefits all, free trade benefits all, that markets can produce good outcomes for all. The strength of the moderate position is that it considers all possibilities and works from all the data. The extremes, left or right, start from a position of fear and then work to find data to support that position.
All that work squeezing in ties to The Left definitely worked, prof. It’s calmed and distracted the local clowns and should be enough for you to keep getting invites to the right dinners. You might be sitting closer to the bathrooms, but you’ll be there.
I'm certainly not someone who says ideas are harmless. Look at the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.
I can believe, at one and the same time, both that murderers are responsible for their own acts (unless mentally impaired) and that people can get influenced by bad books and bad Web sites.
The difficulty comes in when one side, whose books, media and Web sites are highly inflammatory, singles out their opponents as *uniquely* inciting. Also, there's a problem when debate on public issues is constrained because evil or crazy people can monomaniacally pick up some ideas and base crimes on them.
Talk about a heckler's veto! (shooter's veto?) Why should assassins and psychos get to dictate what gets discussed in the public forum?
If I think a corporation is treating its workers unfairly, I should be able to say so, without being told to shut up because class-war rhetoric has led to millions of deaths. The slippery slope doesn't have to be ridden to the bottom.
If I think a country's citizens should defend the country, you can't just bar that idea from civilized discourse because the National Socialists were nationalists, too (so were the nations which resisted the National Socialists).
Etc.
"(shooter's veto?) Why should assassins and psychos get to dictate what gets discussed in the public forum?"
Indeed. Just think of the opportunities afforded to enterprising operatives if that is how things work.
With respect to immigration and ignorantly seeing the world as a zero sum game: there is a difference between 1) the horrible ideas of limiting immigration to certain races or limiting the number of immigrants to fight "overpopulation" and 2) arguing for basically open borders with no oversight at all over those who enter. An open invitation to come to the U.S. should not include terrorists or other criminals, and the extent possible, these people should be prevented from immigrating here. And then there are the myriad social welfare programs forced on us by our own government supposedly to help out our fellow citizens in need. So long as the majority of us are forced to pay to support these people, it is fair to require new immigrants to demonstrate that they will be productive and will not immediately add to our burden, because then the addition of people can become an unnatural government produced zero-sum game. The immortal words written on the Statue of Liberty were written at and for a time when there were no economic or political consequences for those already here to bringing in world's poor and huddled masses. They HAD to work to survive, and in the process, they helped build an economic superpower. Is this still true today?
There's nothing horrible about prioritizing races that are most likely to assimilate. Even if white liberals don't, most people in the world care about race. Bringing in people who care about race when you don't means they're going to prioritize their own.
Well, I'm not sure I agree that is a bad thing if people of certain races (or, mainly cultures) prioritize their own. But first, recognize that I didn't say it was horrible to prioritize certain races, I said it was horrible to limit immigration to certain races - meaning disallowing immigrants on the basis of race. This is not the same as inviting some of certain races to advance to the front of the line. Secondly, most identifiable groups of people who have immigrated to the US look for other groups of people the can identify with. Mostly culturally or nationally, but also by race. That's normal human behavior. It helps them fit in. It creates enclaves one can visit to experience other cultures, and some of these become quite successful with pretty full assimilation in a few generations. If the rest of us realize that is good and we stop being uncomfortable around different races or cultures, it actually fosters the "melting pot" we are supposed to be. But there is a counter-responsibility for the new comers in their groups to try to take up enough our "our" culture to fit in, to not be hostile, or culturally criminal. No immigration policy is ever going to be perfect; I'm just arguing there has to be a controllable border that distinguishes between our country and its government and judicial system, our concept of Rights, etc., and elsewhere, and the control over the border has to be reasonable based on the economic and political conditions of the present, not the past.
One important point about the predictable demographic changes favoring Democrats:
The replacement-at-death issue has become more important as the Republican Party has changed. Previously, Republicans could expect that the loss of a Republican voter to death would be offset by the turn toward conservatism as voters aged -- old Republicans would die, and the electorate would admit younger, less conservative voters, but some middle-aged voters would drift toward conservatism and the Republican Party as they aged.
Voters would tend to become more fiscally conservative as they collected mortgages, children, health insurance obligations, and the like. Some would consequently change party registration, from Democratic to Republican, easing the effect on the replacement-at-death factor.
The replacement-at-death benefit continues to benefit Democrats. The drift-into-Republican-registration benefit, however, seems to be disappearing for Republicans.
The Republican Party has changed, becoming less likely to attract aging Demcorats. It was understandable that middle-aged Americans might become more attracted to Republican policies involving taxes and other financial issues. As Republicans have redirected their focus toward immigration, religious, and other cultural issues, however, they have lost the opportunities for mid-life conversions. No one decides at 40 'I have been tolerant and inclusive long enough -- I think I will become a bigot.' Nobody abandons decades of reason and modernity, suddenly figuring 'today's the day I embrace old-timey right-wing religion.'
Until this changes, Democrats will have the wind at their backs in American politics. That wind seems strong enough to continue to whittle at -- and eventually overcome decisively -- Republicans' electoral strategies and advantages (gerrymandering, voter suppression, and our system's increasing, undeserved structural amplification of rural votes).
Republicans could improve their position with better ideas. Does anyone predict that?
Some decide at age 40 that they don't want Democrat groomers pushing LGBT propaganda on their schoolkids.
Once again, for the Rev., the party of reason is the party of deadbeats, criminals, perverts, and termagants.
As far as the economics of immigration, the facts are that our massive, world-historically unprecedented levels of immigration over the last 60 years generates a "positive sum" of wealth, but the distribution of this benefit is such that it accrues to billionaires and the upper to upper-middle class of Americans (and the immigrants themselves), while the rest of America is severely harmed financially.
The nation's foremost immigration economist notes that it amounts to a $500 billion annual wealth transfer from poorer to richer. That's what we get from this unprecedented interventionist government policy.
Reminds me of this: https://fee.org/articles/what-happened-in-1971-edward-snowden-and-jack-dorsey-want-to-know/
He can't imagine anything but his own ideology,
LOL, nope. You agree with him, so you've decided he's the best. That's some shallow intellectualism right there, ML.
If by "the nation's foremost immigration economist" you mean "the one guy you can find willing to make these claims, in contrast to all the others who disagree," then yes.
We need to discuss the "zero sum game" a bit more honestly. Yes, it's true that the economy is not a zero sum game, and each migrant coming here isn't necessarily putting an American out of a job.
But the reality is that while the economy is not zero sum, resources are! That includes land. California's population has doubled since 1970. Double the population cuts the land available to each resident in half, driving up housing prices even further.
Huh? Is there a land shortage in California? Is it being rationed equally among residents?
If not, then you're full of shit. Resources like land are allocated in non-zero-sum ways. Zoning, is just one example. Would this land be better used for industry, or residents? The choice depends on what grows the pie the most... the opposite of zero-sum.
I'm not saying there aren't tradeoffs. It's all tradeoffs. But they're never zero-sum.
Sure there's a land shortage in California - good land. There's no shortage of desert, but that's not very useful for human habitation. Try to buy a house with beachfront property along the coastline, and it will cost you a fortune, far more than it would have cost you in 1970, even adjusting for inflation. If California's population ever doubles again, that beachfront property will be even more in demand.
I mean, how could land NOT be zero sum? Seriously, this is supply and demand, not to mention elementary physics. If you have a square mile of land, and you divide it up between 100 residents, they will each get more land than than if you divide it up between 200 residents. The only mitigation for this is to either build skyscrapers and increase the usable area skyward, or build underground and increase the usable area downward. But both these options are finite - they are expensive and have practical limitations.
You've obviously never heard of apartment buildings.
You obviously didn't read my last sentence there.
Anyway, what's wrong with the desert? Lots of California's most valuable land used to be desert. It's only worthless until you develop it.
But let's look at the coastline. So your new claim is, you think immigration is driving up the price of beachfront property due to increased demand, and you attribute that to the zero-sum nature of the coastline. A) lol and B) bullshit. Just like with zoning, the coastline is regulated to maximize whatever people want to maximize. If California was concerned about the price of beachfront property, it would open up more of it to development. Even outside of that, "prices going up" is a far cry from your original "cuts the land available to each resident in half" claim. There's nothing zero-sum about prices going up. It's the opposite. The value of that land has gone up, proving that it's not zero-sum. Policies that cause the value of assets to rise are seen as beneficial. The amount of wealth has strictly increased.
You're looking really really hard to find a way to blame immigrants for something, so much so that you've twisted yourself into "blaming" them for the economic success of California. What's next, blaming immigrants for causing stocks to go up too fast?
Bullshit. Even if California opened up every inch of coastline to development, there would still be a finite amount. They can't create this out of thin air.
And I'm blaming population increase, not immigrants specifically.
Zero Sum thinking is inherent in the human condition.
Film at 11.
AOC is an idiot—the EP shooter’s brand of progressivism is actually logical. So the EP shooter actually celebrates Mexican culture in part because they have a much smaller carbon footprint. So he didn’t like Mexicans coming here and ASSIMILATING and then engaging in American excess consumerism. So if climate change is your big issue you should actually want fewer Americans because Americans have by far the largest carbon footprint and decades of data shows immigrants assimilate to American culture and adopt our lifestyle.
Hmm... is this a parody Queenie account? Or did your email account for the old one get seized?
Republicans definitely engineered encouraging Cubans coming here illegally and fast tracking citizenship so they could turn Florida red by voting Republican.
So everyone knows how to use immigration to help a political party. And Republicans rationalized it because Republicans generally support smaller government and less welfare—-except George W Bush (who was put in a position to steal an election by illegal Cuban immigrants) added trillions to the debt with his asinine War on Terror along with greatly expanding welfare to soften the China Shock he engineered.
The Democrats in this article certainly seem to be celebrating the 2020 electoral victories that they credited to demographic change: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/08/stacey-abrams-believers-georgia-blue-434985
When Democrats say they're pursuing amnesty and high volume immigration in order to increase future political power it's not a conspiracy theory to believe them.
All this "How dare you not ignore what we're doing!" gets tired after a while. Decades of the Democratic party bragging about inevitable demographic destiny, (The Emerging Democratic Majority was published 20 years ago, the bragging and systematic failure to enforce immigration laws go back even further.) while systematically undermining immigration enforcement, make replacement theory less a conspiracy theory than an established historical fact.
The anti-Semitic elements some people add to it are nutso, of course. That's anti-Semites for you, they blame everything on Jews, imaginary problems AND real ones. If an anti-Semite complains that the sun is in his eyes, that doesn't extinguish the Sun.
"I thought it had this element that ‘the enemy’ was purposely engineering it. That’s the heart of conspiracy theory."
Yes, that's the heart of the conspiracy theory and it's nonsense.
The point is that progressives crowing about how whites will become a minority and give them a permanent political majority gives credence to the conspiracy theory in the eyes of those who believe it.
Legally allowing mass Third-World immigration? Refusing to enforce our southern border? (Remember the fight they put up against Trump's wall?!) Hello?
You are an idiot. The most important issue for progressives is climate change—it’s literally a zero sum game. But I agree progressives skirt around the issue of whether they would bomb coal power plants if foreign nations defied UN climate accords.
Queenie, hi. Please, tell the class the ways you are diverse, and how many whites you have replaced, at what salary.
Sure, in 2000 Republicans didn’t want a Cuban illegal immigrant to remain with his kidnappers because his moron mother died at sea…now Republicans don’t give a shit about illegals dying in the Rio Grande and definitely don’t want to offer citizenship to children whose parents drown recklessly trying to get them to America.
The ones with (D) after their name?
Biden just appointed a Black Haitian immigrant lesbian to be his spokesman. He celebrates replacing whites.
You are an idiot. Everyone knows progressives believe climate change is an existential threat….and for some reason progressive Americans want to create even more Americans via immigration and assimilation when Americans are very clearly the people most responsible for climate change. The irony is Latinos are leaving the Democratic Party in part because they see inherent contradiction in progressive ideology and question their true goals.
Get a room.
You dispute this, Queen?
Do tell
Immigration policy sets itself?????
OTOH, being happy about something while taking affirmative steps to accomplish it IS working to engineer it. And that's what's going on right now.
Southern border encounters.
It's no accident that they're increasing hugely from when Trump was still in office; That's what happens when Democrats control border security: It goes away.
Queenie, you are less diverse than you think. You are going to be ethnically cleansed as is happening in Los Angeles.
The dog whistle blows, but not for thee, I assume?
Are you talking about ideas like claiming that white people are evil racists who are to blame for all of the problems of the world? Are you talking about a President who openly expresses his hatred for half of the population of the United States (I know that attributing blame to a person who is obviously non compos mentis is not kind, but, alas, politics ain't beanbag)? Are you talking about a political party who is explicitly in favor a government-sponsored discrimination based on race, biological sex, sexual eccentricity, etc? Are you talking about a political party who expressly recommends rioting and intimidation against political opponents, including members of the Supreme Court? You get the drift, I suppose.
THIS IS NOT A THING DEMOCRATS ARE DOING.
Noting demographic change is not the same thing as making it happen.
They are right, however, that Jews are disproportionately leftists, and given their disproportionate power and influence, are able to disproportionately propagate those leftist ideals.
There are plenty of reasons to not like our bizarre and cruel immigration policy other than this idiot plot to let people in who cannot vote and whose kids don't seem particularly Democratic in their partisanship.
After the numbers for Latinos in 2020, did Dem's immigration policies change? No, then maybe their motives are what they say they are, and not the shit you're making up about a plot to get rid of white people.
Bellmore, get a grip. Suppose everything you say and fear about immigration is true. How does that do anything to, "replace," white people, except in the fever dreams of racists? Why can't white people be members, along with everyone else, of an assortment of minorities, with none of them trying rid the nation of the others? What is wrong with you?
What, you don't believe in institutional inertia?
EXCEPT THAT IT IS A THING DEMOCRATS ARE DOING.
Hm, that wasn't any more persuasive when I did it, than when you did it. It's almost like capitalizing a statement doesn't cause people to automatically suspend their critical faculties and assume you're right...
I mean, I have that guy blocked, so dunno.
But if you're reading between the lines to find evidence for your conspiracy theory, that doesn't make the theory true, it makes you a conspiracy theorist.
Like this: In contrast, the silliest thing about the Left these days is that they are so obviously dishonest about their desire for a great replacement.
Saying 'demographics will change politics in our favor' does not mean that immigration policies is meant to bring those demographics about. For one thing, it's very slow. For another, it doesn't look like it's resulting in a compliant, anti-white demographic.
Because that's not actually how nonwhites think.
Can you EVER be honest? Democrats have literally been bragging for years about their policies bringing about this change and creating what they believed* would be a permanent electoral majority. Just once -- be honest about your side!
*The fact that intermarriage, changing self-perceptions of racial identity and the swing-vote history of many Latin Americans was always going to throw a monkey-wrench into these plans notwithstanding.
And yes, neither side wants to fix the obviously broke system -- I agree with you there
I consistently hold that what transpired on January 6th was a mostly peaceful protest that turned into tourists being let into the Capitol Building. And, in total, pales in comparison to any "protest" that BLM perpetuated six months before.
Funny how the only way you ever refute that is to send the same old link to the video montage that is used over and over again because it is the only video that casts the circumstances of that day into any kind of favorable light for your narrative. But you never, ever, directly try to refute my assertion of the actual facts because you simply can't without being indigenous or outright lying.
Ah yes just call someone "conspiracy theorist" and what they have to say and think has absolutely no meaning, right? What a crock.
In more sane times, we just called that critical thinking.
If this is so obvious, go find some quotes, then.
"Can you EVER be honest? "
This is Sarcastro. Of course he can't.
I think you're turning yourself into a pretzel to rationalize this awful nonsense.
This remains clearly incorrect. For one thing our demographic driver is not illegal immigration.
And you're also assuming an intent that as usual you've figured out with telepathy.
I know you're making this all up - but the things you want to make up do not say good things about you.
First, burden is on the guy claiming this stuff.
Second, I gave two reasons. You just didn't see them because you don't read or think very hard, at least when posting on this website.
"Saying 'demographics will change politics in our favor' does not mean that immigration policies is meant to bring those demographics about."
Sure it does because that is the EXACT justification given for more open immigration by many leftists. It was one of the reasons cited in the Trump era immigration cases.
Just because you choose to close your eyes and not see what is obvious and right in front of you doesn't mean others will do the same.
https://www.creators.com/read/armstrong-williams/10/18/a-permanent-democrat-majority
Before that, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pemanent-democratic-major_n_186257
Shortly before that, it was a "permanent progressive majority".
John Judis and Ruy Teixeira “The Emerging Democratic Majority,” 2003: “in which white America is supplanted by multiracial, multiethnic America”.
But really look at the British Labour party where it was admitted they juiced immigration to make the electorate more friendly to their party.
However it failed as a strategy because crazy isn't attractive to any demographic, and Labour is a dying party because of it.
And I don't think you have to look further than open borders policies and amnesty proposals here to see "replacement" as a motivation. But it's not an effective strategy in any case as shown in the UK.
Democrats are not waiting for illegales to become citizens. They are busing them to vote at multiple locations because they work for low wages.
I think you're turning yourself into a pretzel to defend this awful nonsense. I personally don't believe that the great replacement theory is a purposeful venture, but I do think that various entities are perfectly willing to let the situation continue since it's to their political advantage. None so blind and all that...
You have become a parody of yourself, you know that?
If I bump into you at the top of the stairs once, I can ask that you dismiss it as an accident.
If I bump into you at the top of the stairs every time we meet there, and occasionally gloat about how, sooner or later, you're going to fall down the stairs and break your neck, you'd have to be a bloody fool to think I wasn't doing it deliberately.
That's not telepathy, it's refusing to ignore evidence.
We're talking decades of consistent behavior plus gloating about the effect. No matter how much you think it, you are NOT entitled to have people add 2+2 and not come up with 4.
Unsurprisingly, neither of those deliver "Democrats have literally been bragging for years about their policies bringing about this change and creating what they believed"
You mean like this, from Ruy Texeira's paper cited in the second one?
Still not seeing anything more than description.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
But Gaslight0 claims to recognize right-wing dog whistles.
So now it's something Dems always brag about....in dog whistles.
OK, guys.
I personally don't believe that the great replacement theory is a purposeful venture,
Then you don't believe in the great replacement theory.
A core tenet of the conspiracy theory is that it is a purposeful venture.
This is the usual Brett pattern. There are policies you don't like, and you are sure they are coordinated and part of a larger insidious plot based on mind-reading nonsense.
People and politics don't work like that in the real world. We don't live in a political thriller.
When it's pointed out this conspiracy won't work, you just chalk it up to institutional inertia? In this secret coordinated plan no one has revealed?! You are creating an impractical and complicated story wherein Democrats are both clever and disciplined and also dumb and impractical.
Anyhow, congrats on carrying water for white supremacists.
Brett, imaginative attempts by Democrats to capture immigrant voters, and to enhance Democrat's political prospects, are nothing more than legitimate political speculation, which may or may not come true. But pay attention, there is nothing politically or morally illegitimate about any of it. None of it has anything to do with getting rid of white people. To make the leap to that conclusion you have to be a racist, disregard need for proof, and be delusionally paranoid.
Sure it does because that is the EXACT justification given for more open immigration by many leftists.
People keep saying this and yet never provide sources.
Also, *immigration policy* is the issue now, not the border? Because immigration is not a plot to replace white people, you racist idiot.
Hiring black people is not replacing white people, what the fuck?
Repeat after me: "It's not mind reading when they say it out loud."
Actually most Americans are smart enough not to fall for this rot.
Slyfield, only among people who believe it and are also racists. There is no basis except racism to suppose anyone loses political agency by becoming assimilated into a more-diverse polity.
It's not just the crowing, it's also that every time they're in a position to, they systematically spike border enforcement. So they're not just relying on changing demographics to give them power, they're taking affirmative steps to drive the changing demographics. They've been doing that for decades.
You can see it in the border crossing statistics. Every time Democrats get control of border enforcement, the number of illegal immigrants skyrockets.
The cumulative effect has been to add about 30-40 million to our population who wouldn't be here if the borders had been secured. And that accumulated over a period where we had much lower than current illegal immigration; We're currently seeing about a quarter million illegal border crossings per MONTH. That's three million a year!
When Biden took office, illegal border crossings were at about 78k per month. Within two months they'd gone up by 100k a month, and never went back down again. No usual seasonal variation, they just kept going up.
And we're supposed to pretend that abrupt change when administrations changed wasn't deliberate policy? That's pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
No one is saying it out loud. When I ask for links all I get is descriptions of the demographic shift and it’s effects.
No one is talking about the plan you posit.
See, an honest answer would admit that the "Emerging Democratic Majority" (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743254783/reasonmagazinea-20/ has been a long standing theory of Democrats and liberals.
A Sarcastro answer avoids this truth.
I know the book.
Once again, long on description of what is happening, short on the engineering bit.
I don't mind racial minorities at all, I married one, after all. I object to two things:
1) Public policy that's anti-natal. As Musk says, we don't have a population problem, we have a birth problem: Every single Western nation is way below replacement, and trying to make up for it by importing people from 3rd world countries.
Obviously, that relies on there BEING 3rd world countries, it's a strategy that, even if it did work, would be utterly dependent on NOT solving world poverty!
2) Massive illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants aren't interchangeable with legal immigrants who happen to look the same. Legal immigrants are vetted for being law abiding and reasonably educated, illegals are 'vetted' for being willing to break our laws.
My preferred policy is to lock the border down tight against illegal immigration, and pursue a massive program of 'cream skimming' immigration utterly without regard to race or ethnicity.
My preferred policy is to lock the border down tight against illegal immigration, and pursue a massive program of 'cream skimming' immigration utterly without regard to race or ethnicity.
I could live with this
Bellmore, the question what your internal feelings may be about people of other races is irrelevant. Whether you like them, dislike them, or never fluctuate makes no difference. You are a racist if you do things to systematize social outcomes to the detriment of, for instance, black people.
If you are personally one of the white world's greatest friends to blacks, and in your heart of hearts you cherish the warmest and most generous feelings toward all blacks, you are nevertheless a racist if you run for office while mobilizing to your advantage the animus of voters in favor of anti-black policies. That, "ism," on the end of, "racism," is critical. It signifies systematization. That is the essence of racism, not anything to do with personal bigotry.
Bellmore, you missed the point. None of what you said matters. Democrats (or Republicans), if they can get away with it, are entitled to work immigration policy for political purposes—which may be vindicated or frustrated by happenstance, of course.
If political parties do that, none of what happens amounts in any way to, "replacement policy." It amounts to good old-fashioned political opportunism.
Don't like what is happening politically? Learn to make common cause with others in a diverse polity yourself. Does racism among your group get in the way of doing that? Too bad for you.
But the good news is you don't need to define your own group racially. So you are not trapped in it, nor in any danger of being, "replaced." Stay stubborn about it, however, and get ready for a trying interval of losing politics.
every time they're in a position to, they systematically spike border enforcement.
First of all, that's not true. Obama and Biden could be going a lot harder on that front than they are. Think Trump but in reverse.
Second of all, you're still drawing a causal case you can't back up. Not liking the awful way we treat illegals doesn't mean you're using them for some 40-year plan to replace white voters.
Third, Biden is not king of border flux. Laying the number of border crossings at his feet is granting him powers no one has.
Um, did you bother to look at what your chart was measuring? Since Biden took office, CBP is stopping more border crossings than it did under Trump.
*crickets*
How would you tell the difference?
No, you're right, I overstated my case: The Bushes, too, were in favor of increased illegal immigration, one of the reasons we ended up with Trump: The Republican base were sick and tired of their guys collaborating with the Democrats on this policy.
"Third, Biden is not king of border flux. Laying the number of border crossings at his feet is granting him powers no one has."
The buck doesn't stop there, eh? You're just wishing away the rate of border crossings spiking when he took control, and staying high. Just pretending it's not there for everyone to see.
It literally shot up in the space of a couple months after he took office, and has stayed up since.
I don’t understand this compulsive need to identify this guy as left. Half of the republican electorate and nearly all the conservative comments here indicate support for this idea that whites are being replaced. Can’t you just say yeah this guy is correct but killing strangers while they shop for groceries is bad?
Who here has supported him killing people?
Why do you think that those posting here would support him murdering people?
I haven't seen anyone post that the shooting was a good thing. Of course, I do have the anti-semites and crazy-ass trolls blocked, so maybe that's who you are talking about.
Everyone is saying he's right. You'd think someone would explain how that doesn't mean his actions were the appropriate upshot.
Yet, no one seems to notice who they are furiously agreeing with.
Again, why the compulsive need to label this guy a leftist? He shared views on this conspiracy with many republicans and tons of conservative people on this very thread! I’m not saying everyone here wants to go out and kill over their belief that white people are being replaced. But it’s so self evidently a view held by so many conservatives, if this comment section and public polling is any indication. I mean FFS, republican politicians are running on this!
And yet, as always happens, some huckleberry pops up and claims “WELL ACTUALLY he’s a leftist because he said he hated Fox News.” Yes, people contain multitudes and may not fit into traditional boxes. But this shooter didn’t plan for months and drive hundreds of miles to shoot up a bunch of black people buying groceries because he was an environmentalist or whatever other stereotypical leftist belief one can scrape up from a single phrase in a 100 page manifesto.
It’s just so absurdly facile I return to my original question. Why? Is it just trolling? Are you trying to convince other people? Yourselves?
Sarcastro, who is "everyone" saying that "he's right"? I don't notice anyone denying that the percentage of whites in the US is going down - and that includes you among other Leftists, so I doubt you meant that "he's right" refers to that.
Are you claiming that anyone here has agreed that the shooting was a good thing, as I asked in the previous post you just responded to (but failed to answer)? Because I haven't seen that. Unless it has been coming from the idiots I have blocked, then you are lying.
Estragon, why are you so desperate not only to label Gendron right-wing? Why are you so desperate not only to assign responsibility for Gendron not only the right in general but also specific right-wing people, like Carlson?
Especially since the basic fact that the percentage of whites in the country is not only acknowledged by many Leftwingers - including leading Democrat politicians - but actively celebrated, it is dishonest to pretend that is something the "far right" invented.
Given that the man described himself as Left-wing, and he held many beliefs about socialism, the environment, and politics that are shared by Left-wingers (including you), that cannot be a purely honest mistake. He wrote entire sections of his manifesto about the environment, and how killing minorities in the US was essential to saving it. He wrote multiple entire sections in his manifesto about how minorities were ruining socialism in the US. Not, as you lied and claimed, "a single phrase". In fact, considering I quoted a half dozen different selections to you elsewhere, your repeat of this claim shows you are knowingly lying in order to try to disassociate your side from someone that shares your views.
Why are you covering for a racist mass murderer, Estragon? Why won't you admit you share many of his views?
Was Bush in on the Great Replacement as well?
Your bullshit has stopped holding together, even.
The buck doesn't stop there, eh?
Bucko, you're the one alleging actions in furtherance of an agenda. Biden can have no such agenda, no matter where the buck stops.
This is just pathetic, Brett. You're usually at least internally consistent with your nonsense.
A shame this is what causes you to fall completely into trollish deflections.