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Teacher Has Free Exercise Clause Right to Tell Parents About Their Children's "Preferred Names and Pronouns,"
despite a school policy that generally bars teachers from doing so. (For my views on the question, see the end of the post.)
In Judge Holly Teeter (D. Kan.) in Ricard v. USD 475 Geary County, KS School Bd., decided Monday, plaintiff challenged the "Communications with Parents Policy," which "prohibits employees from revealing to parents that a student has requested use of a preferred name or different set of pronouns at school 'unless the student requests the administration or a counselor to do so, per Federal FERPA [Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act] guidance.'"
In application, the policy prohibits teachers not only from initiating communication with parents for the express purpose of disclosing preferred names and pronouns, but it also prohibits teachers from revealing preferred names and pronouns as part of a communication with parents about an unrelated matter, such as grades or attendance. It is this latter application of the policy from which Plaintiff seeks relief. {Plaintiff disclaims any plan to affirmatively reach out to parents for the purpose of telling them that their child is using preferred names or pronouns.}
And the court concluded that plaintiff was entitled to a Free Exercise Clause exemption from this policy:
[1.] Here, Plaintiff demonstrates that the Communication with Parents Policy burdens her exercise of religion. Plaintiff has testified that she is a Christian and believes the Bible prohibits dishonesty and lying. She believes it is a form of dishonesty to converse with parents of a child using one name and set of pronouns when the child is using and being referred to at school by a different name and pronouns, unbeknownst to the parents. The Court finds Plaintiff's testimony concerning her religious beliefs to be credible and subjectively sincere.
Plaintiff has also demonstrated that, as part of her job, she regularly communicates with parents, whether by email or in person. In fact, she has had to communicate in writing with the parents of a transgender student earlier this year, and it is highly likely she will further communicate with transgender students' parents before the end of the academic year. Neither of Plaintiff's transgender students have authorized the District to disclose their preferred names and pronouns to their parents. Plaintiff would face the Hobbesian choice of complying with the District's policy and violating her religious beliefs, or abiding by her religious beliefs and facing discipline.
The District counters that its policy does not require Plaintiff to use any student's name or pronouns in conversations with parents—it merely prohibits Plaintiff from revealing to a student's parents a preferred name or pronouns the student is using at school if the student has not authorized the parents to know. Thus, argues the District, Plaintiff can simply refer to students in conversation with parents as "your child" or "your student," never referring to the child by name or pronoun.
But Plaintiff has testified to her belief that having a conversation with parents about a child, and not disclosing the name and pronouns used at school, is itself a form of "conceal[ment]"—a material omission if you will—given Plaintiff's belief that parents have a fundamental right to control the upbringing of their children. Moreover, it is simply unrealistic to suppose that a teacher can communicate with parents about their child and never refer to the child by name or pronoun. Such a system would be "impossible to comply with," and when Plaintiff "slipped up," she could face discipline. This Court agrees that Plaintiff's religious rights "do not hinge on such a precarious balance." Therefore, the Court finds Plaintiff has demonstrated continued application of the Communication with Parents Policy to her burdens her religious exercise.
{Plaintiff's subjective perception that this is "conceal[ment]" is not fanciful. The District grants parents access to its Skyward system. When a parent logs in, Skyward displays certain information about their child, including the child's legal name as reflected on District records and any preferred name the parent has disclosed to the District. The Skyward database also contains preferred names and pronouns that students are using at school but that parents may be unaware of. Although the District's administrators and teachers can see these preferred names and pronouns when they login into Skyward, this data is not populated and visible in the version of Skyward that parents are granted access to.} …
[2.] The Court [also] concludes the policy is not generally applicable because the District has created multiple exceptions that either necessitate consideration of the putative violator's intent or the District has exempted conduct for secular reasons but is unwilling to exempt Plaintiff for religious reasons.
First, testimony at the hearing established that at least a "couple" of other District employees had inadvertently disclosed to parents the preferred name or pronouns of children who had not authorized the District to disclose this information to parents. The District stated that such persons were not disciplined for violating the policy despite the policy's language drawing no distinction between unintentional or purposeful violations. Thus, in the District's practice, to determine whether the policy has been violated by a particular disclosure, the District must determine whether the putative violator intended to violate the policy or not.
Second, while the policy by its terms would prohibit any disclosure of a child's preferred name and pronouns to parents absent a child's permission, the District admitted at the hearing that if parents requested copies of education records that included information concerning preferred names and preferred pronouns, the District would disclose the information to parents without a child's permission because the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) requires it. Thus, the District is willing to make an exception for the secular purpose of complying with federal law, but not religious reasons.
Third, at the hearing, the Court asked what the District would expect a teacher to do if, during a conversation with parents, parents specifically asked the teacher if their child was being addressed at school by a preferred name or pronouns. The District's counsel indicated that such a teacher should refer the parents to an administrator and the administrator would then answer the question and disclose the requested information in a subsequent conversation or meeting. But the policy does not facially carve out administrators from its scope. Thus, the District has created another exemption in practice for administrators to disclose information when necessary for the secular purpose of responding to a parent's direct question, but again is unwilling to grant an exemption for religious purposes. {Of course, some parents may be totally ignorant of the fact that their minor child is being called by a different name and pronouns at school, in which case they would never know to ask for education records. Under the District's practice, it is only those parents who affirmatively ask the right question who would receive this information. This seems rather inconsistent with the District's stated position that parents are "full partners in their child's education."}
{As explained by Fulton v. City of Philadelphia, the Court must consider whether the secular exemption undermines the District's asserted interests in a similar way. As discussed below, the District told parents the policy was adopted for the purpose of complying with FERPA. But, as also discussed below, FERPA does not restrict parental access to student records; to the contrary, it requires a school district to provide education records to parents whether a child wants the records disclosed or not. Thus, allowing an administrator to disclose to parents because they asked is no less a violation of the District's flawed understanding of FERPA than if the District allowed a teacher to disclose for religious reasons. The District later articulated it did not want preferred name and pronoun information disclosed because it is not the District's "place" to "out" students to parents who might disagree with the child's desire to go by a preferred name or pronoun. This stated interest is undermined just as much by an administrator disclosing the information to parents who ask, as it is by a teacher doing so when necessary to avoid a religious conflict.}
[3.] Because the Communication with Parents Policy is not generally applicable, the District has the burden to demonstrate the policy is justified by "interests of the highest order"—a so-called, "compelling" interest—and that the policy in question is "narrowly tailored" to achieve those interests. When operating under a strict scrutiny standard, the Court must consider the genuine interest that the District believed supported the policy when it adopted the policy.
To that point, the policy was announced by the District's Superintendent, Dr. Reginald Eggleston in an email dated October 7, 2021, and sent to all parents and guardians. That email stated, in pertinent part, "USD 475 will not communicate [preferred names and pronouns] to parents unless the student requests the administration or counselor to do so, per FERPA guidelines." Thus, the District told parents that the reason for its policy was to comply with FERPA. There is no reason to believe the District told parents one thing, while having a hidden, subjective motivation it did not disclose. Therefore, the Court accepts the October 7, 2021 email as an accurate explanation of the District's contemporaneous justification for adopting the policy.
The problem for the District is that FERPA does not prohibit the District from communicating with parents about their minor child's preferred name and pronouns. To the contrary, FERPA is a law that specifically empowers parents to receive information about their minor students; it mandates the District to make education records available to parents upon request—whether the child wants their parents to have the records or not. See 34 C.F.R. § 99.10(a) ("Except as limited under § 99.12, a parent or eligible student must be given the opportunity to inspect and review the student's education records" (emphasis added)).
And FERPA does not exempt from its disclosure obligation education records that deal with preferred names and pronouns. Thus, the District's contemporaneous justification for adopting the policy is predicated on an erroneous understanding of the law. And the District's statement to parents that "FERPA guidelines" prevented the District from disclosing preferred name and pronoun information without a child's permission, was misleading. The District could not have a legitimate, compelling interest in withholding information based on FERPA when FERPA in fact required the District to disclose the very information at issue—at least to the extent the information was contained in an education record.
Even if the Court were to consider the post hoc explanation the District has given in the context of this litigation, the Court still concludes that the District has failed to establish the Communication with Parents Policy is supported by a compelling interest. Specifically, at the hearing, the District's administrator took the position it was not the District's place to "out" a student to their "parents." And the District's counsel argued that "if the home life is such that the —the student doesn't want to be out to their parents, it's not our job to do it."
But as noted above, federal policy as evidenced by FERPA is that parents do have a right of access to information held by the school about their minor children. Moreover, even if FERPA did not mandate that schools make education records available to parents who ask for them, the fact that it is not the school's duty to disclose information to parents does not mean the school has a compelling interest in directing teachers to withhold or conceal such information and punishing teachers if they violate the policy.
Moreover, as the District conceded at the hearing, parents in the United States have a constitutional right to control the upbringing of their children. This is not a trivial right—it is a fundamental one that is "perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests" recognized by the Supreme Court. It rests on a fundamental premise that a child is "not the mere creature of the State," and that parents—"those who nurture him and direct his destiny"— "have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations." It is difficult to envision why a school would even claim—much less how a school could establish—a generalized interest in withholding or concealing from the parents of minor children, information fundamental to a child's identity, personhood, and mental and emotional well-being such as their preferred name and pronouns.
Presumably, the District may be concerned that some parents are unsupportive of their child's desire to be referred to by a name other than their legal name. Or the District may be concerned that some parents will be unsupportive, if not contest, the use of pronouns for their child that the parent views as discordant with a child's biological sex.
But this merely proves the point that the District's claimed interest is an impermissible one because it is intended to interfere with the parents' exercise of a constitutional right to raise their children as they see fit. And whether the District likes it or not, that constitutional right includes the right of a parent to have an opinion and to have a say in what a minor child is called and by what pronouns they are referred.
The Court can envision that a school would have a compelling interest in refusing to disclose information about preferred names or pronouns where there is a particularized and substantiated concern that disclosure to a parent could lead to child abuse, neglect, or some other illegal conduct. Indeed, at least in Kansas, were such a case to arise, a school would likely have to report the matter to the Department for Children and Families. But the District has not articulated such an interest here—either abstractly or in the case of the specific students in Plaintiff's class. {To be clear, there is no evidence in the record that the transgender students in Plaintiff's class are at risk of harm from their parents.} Even if the District had articulated an interest in preventing abuse by a parent (that is, abuse as the law defines it, and not simply as an administrator might subjectively perceive it), the Communication with Parents Policy would not be narrowly tailored to achieve such an interest. The policy is overinclusive because it prohibits the disclosure of preferred name and pronoun information to parents without any assessment of whether disclosure would actually pose a risk. Moreover, the policy would also be underinclusive insofar as it permits administrators to disclose preferred name and pronoun information to parents simply if parents ask, and without any determination whether such disclosure poses a risk to the child. An appropriately tailored policy would, instead, make an individualized assessment whether there is a particularized and substantiated concern of real harm—as opposed to generalized concern of parental disagreement—and prohibit disclosure only in those limited instances.
Because the Communication with Parents Policy substantially [burdens] Plaintiff's exercise of religious rights, is not generally applicable, and fails both prongs of the strict scrutiny analysis, the Court finds that Plaintiff has demonstrated a substantial likelihood of success on her free exercise claim as it concerns this policy.
Plaintiff also challenged "the District's Preferred Names and Pronouns Policy," which provides that, "Students will be called by their preferred name and pronouns." But that question has for now been resolved because the school district takes the view that "(1) an employee is not required to use preferred pronouns and may refer to students only by their preferred first name, provided the employee elects not to use pronouns for any student; and (2) inadvertent or unintentional use of pronouns to refer to some students, where an employee's standard practice is to refer to all students only by preferred first name, will not transform the employee's standard practice into a policy violation," and plaintiff has no objection to this.
[* * *]
My view: I doubt that schools should generally conceal this sort of information from parents, but that's a policy judgment. As a constitutional matter, even if the Free Exercise Clause is read as securing a presumptive right to religious exemptions from laws that have various secular exceptions—and the exemptions can be denied only if the denial passes "strict scrutiny"—I think the Clause has to operate differently when it comes to government employees and their workplace rules.
After all, the Free Speech Clause presumptively prohibits content-based speech restrictions, unless they pass strict scrutiny, but when the government is acting as employer the matter is different: The government can generally
- dictate what speech the employee says or doesn't say as part of the employee's job duties, Garcetti v. Ceballos (2006) (at least setting aside the possibly special scenario of public university professors, who may be protected by a special academic freedom principle even as to teaching, and especially as to scholarship),
- fire or otherwise discipline the employee based on speech that isn't on a matter of public concern, Connick v. Myers (1983),
- and fire or otherwise discipline the employee based on speech when the damage caused by the speech to the efficiency of the government agency's operation does not outweigh the value of the speech to the employee and the public, Pickering v. Bd. of Ed. (1968).
How that should be adapted to the Free Exercise Clause as to items 2 or 3 is complicated, since it's hard to figure out whether religious practices are "on a matter of public concern" or how valuable they are to the employee. But item 1—the principle that the Free Speech Clause doesn't generally give employees a right to decide what to say or not to say when speaking as part of their jobs—seems to carry over well to the Free Exercise Clause. And that remains so, I think, even if the employer policy has some secular exemptions, or hasn't been implemented completely consistently. (See Part III.A of this article for some more thoughts on this.) This is especially true if giving a Free Exercise Clause exemption to the government employees would mean that religiously motivated speech, as in this case, would be treated better by the courts than secularly motivated speech, which itself may be discrimination among speech that should be seen as inconsistent with the Free Speech Clause.
Title VII's religious accommodation principle may, by statute, protect objections to job duties. but that imposes a much lower burden on the employer to overcome (that denying the accommodation will avoid an "undue hardship" on the employer, rather than that it's narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest), and is any event a matter of legislative choice, not constitutional command.
In any event, though, that's just my (tentative) analysis; obviously the court did not agreed with me.
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The alternative outcome:
"Have you been calling my boy a 'she' in class?"
"You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."
You do not get to define me. I identify as rich. I expect everyone to send me money.
Preferred pronouns, another lawyer coerced delusion and tyranny. If you do not like fake pronouns, beat the ass of a federaljudge.
"Have you been calling my boy a 'she' in class?"
The current transgender craze is mostly the other way around, passing from girl to girl like, well, Covid I suppose.
The boy to girl thing is more about Porkying your way into the girls' changing rooms and rest rooms, which probably doesn't do your boy much harm, except perhaps in teaching him that he can get away with being a jerk, so long as he gets onside with the authorities.
Woke is Chinese Commie interests. Zero tolerance for woke.
Carr, that was far superior to the American version.
Seems correct, but an odd way to get there.
This is a bizarre and dangerous ideology that needs to be purged from or schools, hopefully by forcing many of the current establishment out of their jobs and perhaps creating some sort of school choice framework.
Shut down public schools. That's the ultimate "school choice framework." Sane parents will run like hell from any school pushing this crap on kids.
Absolutely. Get rid of government-run or controlled schools. Funding is an entirely separate matter. Give every student a voucher, let them pick how to school their children, whether that be some woke hellhole, a flat-earth hellhole, or an actual readin' writin' 'rithmetic teaching institution. Those wokies and flat-earthers would find themselves with very few students in short order.
Note that this policy is being imposed in rural Kansas in a comfortably Republican area. It could be ended in a moment if parents ejected the current school board - which now that this teacher has woken up the local parents, will probably happen fairly soon.
It's a college town. More woke per capita than most of the state.
Barely.
Trump got 56.18% of the vote statewide, but in Geary County he slumped to a miserable......55.43%.
The damage seems to have been done by a huge cache of... about 72 votes swinging to the Libertarian. Biden, at 41.5% was pretty much identical in Geary as statewide. So it's an R+14 county. Given the national Presidential vote was D+4, that makes it 18 points more Republican than the national average.
Seems to me that the unwoke ought to be able to knock off the school board easily enough when they arise from their slumbers.
Right, and that's the point: The policy wasn't aimed at protecting students from abusive parents.
It was aimed at keeping the unwoke from arising from their slumbers.
Which in turn points the way for Red State Legislatures to go.
Instead of the current craze for anti-CRT Bills (there is a very biased, but still good, podcasty piece on 538 about this, pointing out that these anti-CRT Bills have no actual bite) the first thing the State legislature needs to do is open the effing curtains. Sunlight first. These creatures work in the dark. When you've seen the roaches, then you can get more detailed.
State Legislatures should require educational institutions to post all their rules and all their policies publicly. No posty, no ruley. No "oh we didn't realise you meant our unofficial guidelines" - that leads to no payey.
Requiring teachers to keep secrets from parents would appear to violate parents’ fundamental right to disscipline, control, educate, and rear their children.
It is precisely the sort of thing - children forcibly taken from their parents and raised by the state against their patents - that Pierce v. Society of Sisters and Meyer v. Nebraska - warned against.
It’s very surprising that the teacher didn’t raise parental privacy, much as Baird did in Eisenstadt v. Baird. The policy is itself unconstitutional.
I also think that a religion clause analysis is going to be problematic here. Taken to its logical extent, it gives teachers a right to depart from the curriculum and teach students what they want when the curriculum conflicts with their religious beliefs. In general, while the religion clauses provide some protection for teachers’ personal behavior - a prohibition on wearing headcoverings indoors, for example - days of attendance, and other matters that don’t directly involve the act of teaching itself, I think there is less room for the religion clauses to interfere with school policies when it comes to what teschers teach.
I think that parents have a constitutional right to know what is going on with their children at school, and requirements to hide things from parents violate that right. But I am skeptical that the Religion Clauses cover these matters.
I also think that in general, some things have to be decided categorically. Either teachers do or do not have a right ro change the curriculum based on their religious beliefs. A regime where judges get to determine whether a particular aspect of the curriculum is really important or not based on their own opinions, or whether an exception, was made in some case or other, leads to the sorts of problems that led to Smith. I would attempt to solve those problems, and give their existence some consideration, rather than going with Smith’s complete abandonment of heightened scrutiny.
Nor would I apply the strong Alito of approach of any exception requires an exception for religion. School policies, at least reasonably fair and enforcible ones, are particularly likely to have exceptions. Strict Alito analysis would result in l
teachers being entitled to do whatever tbey want.
Indeed, I don't see this as a first amendment issue. It's a matter of secular parental rights. The school is simply NOT entitled to keep secrets from the parents about their own children, absent some particularized and possibly legally adjudicated reason to the contrary.
The contrary notion needs to be stomped out, aggressively.
Strong Alito leads to a world where unless the kid whose mother accidentally packed a plastic knife with lunch is expelled with no mercy, John Jihadi Jr. gets to bring his decapitation knife.
It would not exactly lead to fairness, justice, or peace.
If that's true, then the teacher wouldn't have standing to challenge the policy. Parents could, of course, but not teachers.
That’s why I brought up Eisenstadt v. Baird. It addressed a not exactly alike but I think analogous standing issue and ruled Baird had standing. Baird, who was arrested for demonstrating contraceptives, successfully argued that he had standing to assert the privacy rights of the members of his audience.
Yup. Parents have a fundamental interest in the well-being of their children.
Teachers and other bureaucrats have no interest in the well-being of their students.
For example, if I heard my neighbor's cousin's kids were having problems, I'll be bummed out but it won't have a major impact on my life. Teachers have the same sort of relationship with their students.
This has been going on longer than most people realize. My Cousin's daughter had a disagreement with him, so she ran away. She ended up staying with a friend. He's looking for her and realizes that the school hasn't called about her absence. He calls the school and finds out that she's in class. He goes to the school and requests that she be brought to him. The school refused because she didn't want to see him. She said that she didn't feel safe. My Cousin has never raised a hand to either of his children. She finally came home a few days later on her own.
For example, if I heard my neighbor's cousin's kids were having problems, I'll be bummed out but it won't have a major impact on my life. Teachers have the same sort of relationship with their students.
Teachers "and other bureaucrats" have no interest in the well-being of their students? Bullshit. Why is it that whenever my colleagues and I call more resources for public education (in states like Florida that are well below the national average on spending), we get accused of being selfish and just wanting more money for ourselves? We should be in teaching "for the kids", not to pay our own bills and expect to support our own families in a way that reasonably reflects the time, effort, and education required to be an effective teacher.
This kind of twisted, contradictory argument is just runaway motivated reasoning. When it comes time to talk about compensation for teachers, we are lazy people not smart enough to make it in the 'real world' just looking to suck on the government teat, so we should just focus on doing our jobs "for the kids" and not whine about low pay. But if we start to show concern for the mental health and emotional and social well-being of students in ways that aren't compatible with social conservative views on sexual orientation, race, or gender, we should keep our mouths shut and just teach them how to factor polynomials.
"Why is it that whenever my colleagues and I call more resources for public education (in states like Florida that are well below the national average on spending), we get accused of being selfish and just wanting more money for ourselves?"
Huh? For the same reason that when I tell my boss that it would be good for the business if they paid me more money, he thinks that I'm engaging in motivate reasoning.
Like most people with jobs, sure, I enjoy solving customers' problems, but I'm mostly in it for number 1. I don't see why you think teachers are any different.
No one would say that providers of goods and services should get to make choices for customers because they care about the customer. We recognize that customers are in the best position to make choices for themselves.
"But if we start to show concern for the mental health and emotional and social well-being of students in ways that aren't compatible with social conservative views on sexual orientation, race, or gender, we should keep our mouths shut and just teach them how to factor polynomials."
Sure. If you enjoy teaching math to kids enough to do it at lower pay than you could make elsewhere, that's great.
But you certainly shouldn't be teaching math at an undesirably low level of compensation because you care about the kids' sexual development. That's just weird and feeds the groomer narrative.
TIP : No one would say that providers of goods and services should get to make choices for customers because they care about the customer.
The Sage of Kirkaldy : “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
Great minds 🙂
Isn't this case about a policy that forbids teachers from showing concern for the mental health and emotional and social well-being of students in ways that aren't compatible with progressive views on gender?
Just so, which is why teachers should stick to polynomials and STFU about the rest. That's the parents' job.
Yo Teach ! You're not a substitute parent, you're a polynomial instructor. Stay in your lane.
It's a matter of secular parental rights.
Where are those, in the Constitution?
Where is the power over children at the expense of the parents granted in the constitution? Where is the requirement that children be forced to attend public school mentioned in the constitution?
bevis,
I take SimonP's comment as a rebuke of the argument that a right doesn't exist because it isn't specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Besides the obvious violation of the 9th Amendment in such an argument, it is hypocritical when the same people that make that kind of statement also want courts to recognize other rights (like parental rights) that aren't specifically mentioned in the Constitution. And as for powers of government, where is government given the power to force women to remain pregnant against their will? That isn't explicit either.
The federal government is given a list of enumerated powers, and unlike individual rights, it does not have powers not enumerated. It extends its powers through broad interpretations of the General Welfare and Necessary and Proper Clauses (even I, left-of-center that I am, acknowledge that it does so beyond what it should in some cases), but that, at least, is text within the Constitution. States have broader powers than the federal government, especially when it comes to promoting the "general welfare" because that is how federalism under the Constitution works. The 10th Amendment expressed how state governments (or the people) were reserved all powers not given to the federal government (unless specifically barred elsewhere in the Constitution). Like the 9th Amendment, this was really just stating explicitly something that should have been obvious. But, the 1st Congress included them in the Bill of Rights as a guard against people that might try argue differently.
To conclude, the states clearly have the power to promote the general welfare of society, including requiring that children be educated. Note: No state requires children to attend public school. Homeschooling or private schools are always allowed. Compulsory education laws are just that all children have a right to an education, and parents can't shirk that responsibility entirely. I think there may even be SCOTUS precedent on this, but I don't recall the details. And the "power over children at the expense of the parents" is framing, not an accurate description of the issues here. Children have rights independent of their parents, because they are individual human beings, not the property of their parents. It is a perfectly legitimate function of government to protect those rights when parents won't or are the ones violating those rights. I would say that it is a responsibility of government, actually.
"Note: No state requires children to attend public school. Homeschooling or private schools are always allowed."
Certainly true. Parents who are unhappy with the public schools can either pay extra money to send their children to other schools, or leverage the political process to force the public schools to educate their children in manner more to their liking.
"Children have rights independent of their parents, because they are individual human beings, not the property of their parents. It is a perfectly legitimate function of government to protect those rights when parents won't or are the ones violating those rights. I would say that it is a responsibility of government, actually."
And we're discussing, essentially, due process. Can a school just have a general policy of presuming the parents won't or are the ones violating those rights, and routinely keep them in the dark? Or does the school have to establish that presumption in individual cases before an independent arbiter? Independent, because it's just as possible that it's the school that's the danger.
The school being discussed was following the 1st route: It had established a presumption that the parents weren't to be trusted, and should as a general rule be kept ignorant of these matters.
I'd say that the school, in having set up a general policy here, and a procedure for systematically concealing this information from parents, has adequately established that their concern is NOT the odd parent who's a threat to their child, but that the school is doing things the general community would find objectionable. And can only continue to get away with so long as that community is ignorant of what the school is doing.
What we're looking at here is not an effort to circumvent especially dangerous parents. It's an effort to circumvent democratic control over the schools.
"It’s very surprising that the teacher didn’t raise parental privacy, much as Baird did in Eisenstadt v. Baird. The policy is itself unconstitutional."
Not surprising at all when you realize that the court rejected the privacy argument in Eisenstadt v. Baird.
What privacy argument did the Court reject in Eisenstadt v. Baird? The right to privacy was an alternate basis for its holding. ¨If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.¨" 405 U.S. 438, 453 (1972).
One of those situations where everyone knows that the teacher is lying, but it can't be disproven.
?? Because nobody has ever sat through a sermon on the value of honesty? This strikes me as one of the more plausible religious accommodation claims.
Oh, people may preach honesty, and others may claim it. But do they always act on it? More plausible is that the teacher is actually lying when they say that the reason for their opposition to the law is their religious conviction about the sexual identity of the child, rather than their visceral distaste.
"Oh, people may preach honesty, and others may claim it. But do they always act on it?"
That's not the standard.
If it's not the standard that's only because courts are too chickenshit about this stuff. Claims of religious sincerity are met with too much deference.
No, it's because people often fail to measure up to their sincere beliefs about what's right, religious or otherwise.
That and since courts lack any way to measure "how sincere is this and what's its REAL motivation?*", and are also explicitly holding themselves incapable of "judging which religious beliefs are totally real and which don't count" ["You're doing religion X wrong, no 1A for you!" is very much not how this can ever work.] ... they simply must take people's word for it, unless there's strong evidence to show it's just faking it.
That evidence is very hard to manage and quite uncommon, of course.
(* in the real world, people's religions blend into their preferences and extant non-religious worldview, exactly like their political preferences do, and the way atheist worldviews do.
Because religion is really just a worldview, and the law can't really privilege any worldviews like that, not with the First Amendment, even apart from the Free Exercise clause in isolation; combine that with speech and you have - if not explicitly, implicitly - "freedom of conscience" enshrined, as it should be in a liberal democracy.)
That and since courts lack any way to measure "how sincere is this and what's its REAL motivation?*"
"A man's state of mind is as much a fact as the state of his digestion"
>That and since courts lack any way to measure "how sincere is this and what's its REAL motivation?*"
From the decision quoted in the post: "The Court finds Plaintiff's testimony concerning her religious beliefs to be credible and subjectively sincere."
Are you ... a mindreader?
Or incapable of believing that other people don't share your worldview, for real and for true?
Because i see no other explanation for your assertion that they Simply Must Be Lying About Their REAL Motives.
(i have no trouble at all believing them, because while I don't share their worldview, it's coherent and comprehensible and I've seen other serious people espouse it, ones I actually know.)
Yeah, this one isn't even a stretch. Prohibitions on lying are straight up in the text.
I am aware of that. But AFAIC if you are found to violate the commandments you claim you're observing you cannot claim that you're sincere.
...
Do you ... know ... literally anything at all about either Judaism or Christianity?
They both quite explicitly admit people will break the law/sin, even when they try very hard not to. That's the point, respectively, of temple sacrifices [and whatever the hell modern Jews do to atone] and divine grace and forgiveness, respectively.
Your comment is like "so and so cannot be a Communist because they don't live a purely materialist-dialectic life!" or "so and so cannot possible be a rationalist because they have irrational emotions!"
"Nobody can believe in something sincerely if they don't always follow everything it demands" is ... something someone who had literally never met a single human being might think?
" if you are found to violate the commandments you claim you're observing you cannot claim that you're sincere."
No, you can claim to be a sinner. Put that stone down, lest you be judged yourself.
Thanks for revealing the hypocrisy at the heart.
"By their deeds shall ye know them".
BTW the pericope of the woman taken in adultery is a later interpolation - though as an atheist Jew I don't really give a shit.
Can't be PROVEN
What an odd case.
First a Kansas school board prohibits teachers from openly discussing students' info with parents?!?
Then the teacher had to fight the board using religious freedom grounds?!?
Sheesh.....
I do like how that Satan group is going to use religious freedom to fight for abortion rights.
"First a Kansas school board prohibits teachers from openly discussing students' info with parents?!?"
This is the new norm. It is statewide policy in California and many other states.
Concur with Twelve's comment
Actual transgenderism is extremely rare
pseudo transgenderism has become the new fad in the mental health profession - The faddishness of the pseudo diagnosis and the long term damage should be obvious to everyone.
Not to mention the cottage industry of unnecessary double mastectomies (called "teat-yeeting" to make the procedure more palatable to children), and the unnecessary castration of boys and young men.
Neither google nor checking urban dictionary supports the claim that anyone has ever used that term, and of course there is no such "cottage industry."
You sure you know how to use the internet?
Urban Dictionary:
google (Lots of results)
And the rise in gender surgeons is easy to document, the google link shows surgeons tweeting about how many teats they're going to yeet today.
And a shop with procedures for "non-binary" people that will give you both, or smooth you out like a Ken doll.
Now, it's totally cool if adults want to do this, but we shouldn't be normalizing it among children.
There is nothing to suggest that children — who are the topic of the thread — are getting these surgeries.
No, typically you'd be talking puberty suppressors, not surgery, in the case of children. At least younger children, anyway.
The entire concept (that kids are born in such a way that they might need to alter their bodies) is being normalized by having it introduced in Kindergarten. Kids are often provided with patently false information (Doctors look at your body when you are born and try to guess your gender.)
This ideology is reinforced throughout childhood to accommodate a rare type of body dysphoria.
And it's rare for children to have genital surgery, less rare for them to have double mastectomies, and much less rare for them to be put on "puberty blockers" or hormones which are quite risky.
But even a few unnecessary castrations of children or double mastectomies are too many.
[Citation needed.]
Did you find one random school somewhere in the U.S. where it happened?
It's part of the CA curriculum guidance for K-3. I don't know how many other states are doing it.
Did you really think teachers in Florida were mad about the ban on sexy talk with Kindergarteners because they wanted to talk about their spouses?
As usual, TiP, I can't seem to find that in the article you linked.
Could you quote the bit that concerns you?
The bit that supports my claim?
"For sex education, the topic that generated opposition, the framework offers numerous subjects for discussion at each grade grouping, including:
Grades kindergarten through three: gender identity"
Teaching that gender identity exists is nowhere close to teaching that surgeries for children are necessary.
This is what the text of that curriculum guidance says:
That's rather not what you said.
I copied and pasted the term you posted, "teat-yeeting."
Urban dictionary gives zero hits for that. One needs to misspell that first word as "teet" — as you did in your followup — to get any results.
With respect to google, I did the same copy/paste, but — as I always do when googling — I put quotes around it because it was a two word phrase and one will get a lot of false positives if one searches them independently. That gave exactly one hit, a tweet from some rando who opposes it.
I see that if one does it without quotes, one gets ~100,000 results — of which very very few are relevant to this topic.
(Again, if one misspells it as "teet," one gets a bunch more results.
But still a pretty small number for a google search. Without quotes it's about 300,000; for comparison, "gender reassignment surgery" without quotes gets 12 million.)
I admit I don't know the correct way to spell teet yeat, but my larger point stands.
The term is indeed in Urban Dictionary, and the google search I linked to gives a few pages of on-topic results.
it is amazing how often things that should be obvious are ignored. That's the law of foreseeable consequences, which are never accidental.
Everything else aside, I'm under the understanding that the Every Student Succeeds Act gives parents a federal right to actually observe classroom instruction. The policy seems to be inconsistent with this: It's absurd to forbid explicit disclosure but allow implicit disclosure in the most disruptive possible setting.
Well, it gives the parents a federal right to observe the classroom like the second amendment gives the parents the right to bear arms in the classroom.
Vote for fascists, get fascism.
Teeter was appointed to a lifetime position on the court by Trump when she'd had about two years of experience working as a lawyer.
FYI.
Eugene, this kind of clusterfuck of legal reasoning is something you and other conspirators effectively been cheering on. In the view of any sufficiently conservative judge (or justice), no law is going to be "generally applicable," and every Christian is going to have a "get out of jail free" card from just about any law relating to equal treatment of LGBT people, to teaching kids about LGBT, CRT, or any other issue you can imagine, to contraceptive and abortion access, to equal treatment of unwed mothers, and on and on and on.
This is the bed you've made. Lie in it.
My only hope is that people with their own sincere religious/ethical beliefs will start to find ways to exploit these Christian exemptions for their own purposes. That may help to illustrate the farce that awaits us all.
SimonP: Back in the 1990s, I was one of the few academic defenders -- on either side of the political spectrum -- of Employment Division v. Smith, see my A Common-Law Model for Religious Exemptions article; Smith, of course, was designed to avoid courts' making decisions such as this. And in Fulton v. City of Philadelphia, I filed an amicus brief on my own behalf making those arguments. (In both places, I also argued against the theory that the presence of secular exemptions keeps a law from being generally applicable.) Alas, no-one was persuaded.
I appreciate that you're on this side of the Employment Div. v. Smith line. My point is that your work (and those of your conspirators) pushing boundaries elsewhere have contributed to this moment. It's like your work on free speech in the anti-LGBT discrimination cases - photos, yes, cakes, no. These people are pushing for a maximalist reading of Fulton, and it's going to steamroll right over the nuance you're trying to footnote into the discourse.
Well, claims about what I or others have done by way of "pushing boundaries elsewhere" seems pretty vague, and hard to sensibly respond to. My position on Smith is quite unnuanced: It's good, and the Sherbert/Verner regime that the Court is poised to resurrect is bad. And As to the compelled creation of expression cases, I think Dale's and my position is a pretty solid application of well-settled compelled speech principles; and that lines have to be drawn there is hardly new for Free Speech Clause jurisprudence.
"Eugene, this kind of clusterfuck of legal reasoning..."
That allows teachers to provide accurate information to parents about their children, against the wishes of the government...
Sounds terrible.
The fact that you have to refer to it euphemistically betrays that you understand why the law exists, and why governments might want to protect students against this kind of disclosure.
It's strange to me that people who claim to be interested in protecting kids from non-existent "groomers" don't seem to feel the same way about protecting kids from being abused or thrown out of the house by their parents, but then again I perfectly well understand that none of you are actually taking a principled stand on the issue.
"The fact that you have to refer to it euphemistically..."
My reference to the policy was perfectly accurate. The fact that you feel it necessary to mischaracterize my reference betrays the weakness of your own position.
Are you seriously claiming it's necessary to have a general policy against providing certain accurate information to parents in order to prevent abuse?
I hope the left continues to articulate this position loudly.
I'm saying a kid who thinks they're trans or gay shouldn't be outed to their parents by the school teachers and counselors they trust with that information. Teachers and counselors might encourage students to share this information with their parents, but they shouldn't be making that decision for the kids.
I am concerned for kids' welfare. You're concerned for parents who might want to try to coerce their children into conversion therapy.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
And we're saying they should.
No, you're not concerned for the kids' welfare. You're concerned with establishing that the government be presumed to be a better guardian of that welfare than their parents.
But nothing makes the government automatically better than parents in this regard. Maybe in specific cases, and if such a case seems to have arisen, the school can damned well go to a judge and get a court order depriving the parents of custody. Rather than just deciding on its own, as a general policy, that parents are not to be trusted.
Because it's damned unfair to the parents to make them responsible for kids whose lives they're required to be ignorant of. All responsibility and no knowledge or power?
And what is the source of the constitutional right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children? Could it be -- wait for it -- substantive due process?
Why yes, it is.
No, it would be one of those 9th amendment rights. In as much as it was well established at the time the Constitution was adopted.
The answer here is NEVER substantive due process, because that's a nonsense concept.
"a kid who thinks they're trans or gay shouldn't be outed to their parents by the school teachers and counselors they trust with that information."
And keep in mind this isn't just about kids who confide things in teachers. Schools are literally keeping two sets of records, one with the information that the kid uses in school, and another that the school uses to talk to there parents.
Imagine you are a parent trying to deal with a son having a crisis, you sent him to different doctors, whatever you need to do to help, and you find out that that the school has been treating him as a girl for a year or so? Maybe it would have been helpful to know that sooner?
No, SimonP, you don't give a tiny rat's ass about kid's welfare.
That's the result, not the reasoning.
I like this result - parents should not be kept in the dark about their kids - but the Free Exercise reasoning here seems... off to me. And others, it seems, as this post shows.
As to Judge Teeter's experience, she worked for 5 years in private practice, then for 5 years as a staff attorney for two judges (not just a one-year law clerk, but a slightly longer-term position for each), and then for 2 years as a prosecutor (see here). Perhaps that's not enough experience, or perhaps not the right kind, but I just wanted to set the record straight on that.
For whatever it's worth, she was also apparently first in her class at the University of Kansas School of Law; law school grades are of course an imperfect measure of legal acumen, but my sense is that being #1, including at a mid-tier law school, is a pretty impressive qualification. Again, I disagree with her analysis here, but I have no reason to generally question her judicial qualities.
Thanks - mea culpa. I read over her experience carelessly.
Gene is more than happy with these evil school polices and has spent years enabling this radical agenda.
Does this decision imply that religiously-motivated truth-telling is constitutionally protected but merely ethically-motivated truth-telling is not? Does the law accord atheist's principles lesser protection than religious peoples' principles?
If a student tells a teacher, nervously, that he's gay, the teacher can reveal this to his fundamentalist parents. Despite a school policy that requires she not tell.
P.S. The teacher being fundamentalist also -- whether the student knows that or not.
You can always spin all kinds of scenarios. Society and the law have a strong presumption that parents are in charge of raising and guiding their children until they reach adulthood. Absent an abusive situation, that should not change. The notion that a government employee can keep secrets from parents about their children should send a shudder through any right-thinking person.
If a boy demands that they be treated as a girl, the school is now required to comply with these demands, allow them in the girl's bathrooms and locker rooms, and force all employees and students to address the child with a new name and set of pronouns.
And the parent's aren't even allowed to be told?
Don't forget, we are talking about children here.
Don't forget, we are talking about children here.
they seem to be the new battleground.
One that the left will lose, and lose badly. We saw that in Florida and Virginia.
How about that infant formula shortage? Maybe the Secty of Transportation should take another 3 months parental leave.
What exactly is the problem with allowing the student to decide on when to come out to their parents?
That's fine for your typical college student. We're discussing children here. You know, the people who are generally NOT legally entitled to make their own decisions on anything important?
Kid's don't have rights?
Sure, they have rights. Most of which are exercised on their behalf by their parents, as you're well aware.
Short of a legal emancipation, or a court finding that I'm a danger to him, there is very little I'm not entitled to know about my 13 year old son's life.
We're not discussing whether I can sell him into slavery, or break him up for parts. We're discussing whether the school can decide, without bringing in a judge to rule on the matter, that I'm to be kept in the dark about significant developments in my son's life.
The fact that you trust the school more than the parents here is disturbing.
"What exactly is the problem with allowing the student to decide on when to come out to their parents?"
As I said elsewhere, because you're asking the parent to manage the kid's social and emotional well-being and mental health while denying them a significant piece of information.
Sure, as long as the parents are absolved of any financial or legal responsibility for any problems that result from information that was kept from them.
The presumption of parental incompetence? That will get you a long way.
Note the this policy prevents the teacher from passing accurate info to the parent even if the teacher thinks, for whatever reason, that it's better if the parents know in a specific situation.
"Teeter was appointed to a lifetime position on the court by Trump when she'd had about two years of experience working as a lawyer."
And? Relevance?
"Eugene, this kind of clusterfuck of legal reasoning is something you and other conspirators effectively been cheering on. In the view of any sufficiently conservative judge (or justice), no law is going to be "generally applicable," and every Christian is going to have a "get out of jail free" card from just about any law relating to equal treatment of LGBT people, to teaching kids about LGBT, CRT, or any other issue you can imagine, to contraceptive and abortion access, to equal treatment of unwed mothers, and on and on and on.
This is the bed you've made. Lie in it."
You advocate schools KEEP information from parents? On what legal grounds does a school have any semblance of a right to do this?
At issue is whether a teacher can report to parents speech or opinions that she (and maybe no one else) finds objectionable.
The real issue is whether or not to prevent parents from discovering the pseudo transgender diagnosis pushed by activists onto their children
At issue is whether the school can have a policy demanding that the parents be kept in the dark about their own children.
The school is, with parental permission, acting in loco parentis. The parents are NOT, with governmental permission, acting in loco doctor.
The notion that schools are entitled to keep parents in the dark about what's going on with their children needs to be stomped, HARD.
Why wouldn't teachers be allowed to report anything at all to parents?
Because the state wants to take over the responsibility for children, and if the parents are viewed as backwards, go behind their backs.
concur - the left wants to go behind the parents backs because they know the diagnosis is bogus.
And the answer is --- it is not the teacher nor the school's CHOICE. They must tell parents EVERYTHING. They do not possess special rights over these children in any way, shape, or form.
Not "information" generally. Stop using equivocation to make your argument for you.
We're talking about personal, sensitive information that a kid in school may want to be in charge of disclosing to their parents, at an appropriate time and in the appropriate way. A kid thinks they might be gay and tells a teacher they trust in confidence, seeking advice. A kid feels that he's transgender and wants to explore that side of his identity in an environment that he feels is safe. A kid has an awkward sexual experience and wants to know how to deal with the aftermath.
These are sensitive topics that teenagers deal with all the time, and may have views or feelings that they're not yet comfortable disclosing to their parents. It's still true that disclosing that you're gay or trans, as a student in high school, can get you kicked out of your house. Do parents have a "right" to do that, to have the information to do that?
Disclosure may be the right thing to do, it might not be, but a student going through these issues should be able to trust their teachers and counselors to help them decide how best to handle their personal circumstances. If teachers take it upon themselves to "inform" on their students to their parents, the result will be that students just keep more of this to themselves and an even tighter network of confidantes - meaning they get even worse guidance.
Yes, and again, we're talking about children, who are not legally entitled to keep secrets from their parents. And any party that thinks they can change that is in for an electoral curb stomping of epic proportions.
You keep saying "student", to elide the fact that we're discussing "children".
Kids aren't chattel, Brett. Of course they ought to be able to keep some things from their parents, especially if they reasonably fear that disclosing them would subject them to abuse or worse.
No, kids aren't chattel. They aren't free and independent adults, either. They're children, a distinct status that we all go through, where such rights as you have are typically (With certain specific exceptions!) exercised on your behalf by your parents.
This arrangement can, of course, be terminated by appropriate legal proceedings, and if the school were only pursuing this "don't tell" policy for children where a court had found the parents to be a danger to the child, who would be complaining?
Has it it occurred to you, even as a theoretical possibility, that on occasion it could be the school that's the danger to the child, not the parents? And in such cases, the school would want the parents to remain in the dark about it?
Kids can keep stuff from their parents, but that doesn't mean that the school is allowed to assist them in that. Schools don't get to just decide they know better than the parents. If they have a reasonable belief of abuse, they go to a judge who gets to make that call.
"These are sensitive topics that teenagers deal with all the time, and may have views or feelings that they're not yet comfortable disclosing to their parents. It's still true that disclosing that you're gay or trans, as a student in high school, can get you kicked out of your house. Do parents have a "right" to do that, to have the information to do that?"
Parents have a right, and a responsibility, to access information necessary to provide for their child's psychological well-being and mental health. The fact that some parents might not handle that role as well as desired is not an excuse to deny other parents important information.
This law exists precisely to protect students whose parents "might not handle that role as well as desired." Well-adjusted parents wouldn't need their kids' teachers to tell them that their kids are gay or trans, because their kids would just tell them that on their own. The only cases where this rule can make the difference are those where the kid has some reason to believe their parents wouldn't react well. That's why the rule exists.
You don't seem to consider the possibility that the parents are well adjusted, and it's little Johnny who's off his rocker.
Brett, what would you do if one of your son’s teachers told you that he had confided in them that he thought he was gay or trans?
I don't know about Brett, but I'd imagine that most parents would take the entire body of information that they have about their children, plus the circumstances under which they confided this feeling, and use their best judgement to arrive at an appropriate course of action.
IOW, there isn't a one-size fits all to questions like this.
The first thing I'd do is pull them from that school, obviously. Because it would be utterly inconsistent with his behavior around us, and the odds that my son would prefer to discuss something important with a teacher instead of us are a lot lower than the odds that the teacher is a dangerous pervert.
I thought as much. You're the sort of parent a child wouldn't feel comfortable coming out to while still a minor, part of the problem, and why this kind of rule might exist. The idea of your son being gay/trans is so anathema that you'd more likely believe that his teacher is a pervert than that he might be afraid of being honest with you about it.
Like - suspend for a moment your fighting of the hypothetical and assume that the teacher has informed you because your son has told the truth about himself and the teacher believes, as others in this thread have asserted (including yourself), that parents deserve to know everything about their kids' lives. And imagine, then, that you react the way that you have described here. In that situation, you: (i) accuse the teacher falsely of being a pervert, when in fact they have reacted in exactly the way you would require; (ii) disbelieve your son's own coming out, despite that being his hard-won truth; and (iii) remove your son from an environment in which he apparently feels safer than he does with you - to do what? Put him into a conversion therapy camp? Send him to some other school that will indoctrinate the gayness/transnsess out of him? You would harm your son, in other words, and potentially harm the teacher. And you wonder why a rule like this might exist.
"I thought as much. You're the sort of parent a child wouldn't feel comfortable coming out to while still a minor, part of the problem, and why this kind of rule might exist."
What do you mean, "a child"? You asked about Brett's child. I assume you've never met Brett's child.
Brett is familiar with his kid's personality, his interests, his relationship with his teachers, etc. Why would you know better how to respond to such a situation than he would?
I mean, suppose you had a kid who had come out to you, but he confided in one of his teachers that he might be straight? Surely you would exercise some judgement, and not simply accept what the teacher said.
Brett is familiar with his kid's personality, his interests, his relationship with his teachers, etc. Why would you know better how to respond to such a situation than he would?
Well, what I do know is that Brett would conclude that the teacher in this hypothetical is a pervert and a clear and present danger to his child, necessitating pulling his kid from school, because in his estimation it can't possibly be true that Brett's son is gay or trans. Does that sound like a reasonable response, to you?
In all of my comments, I am not taking the position that I, or a teacher or school administrator, should substitute our judgment for that of a child's actual parents. I am, rather, pointing out that (i) kids who think they might possibly be gay or trans have ample reason to be cautious about disclosing that information to their parents and (ii) teachers and counselors have ample experience teaching lots of kids in those kinds of situations, and can provide guidance for kids struggling with how best to approach the situation.
All this rule does is put agency in the hands of the child. I think that a teacher or counselor should counsel the student to be forthright with his or her parents. But they should also understand that there may be some circumstances where that would result in endangering the child, and they shouldn't presume to know better.
You and others insist that parents should and must be told about their kids' putative sexuality or gender identity struggles, regardless of how this might actually impact a student's welfare. But it is clear throughout that the reason you think this is that you presume that any adolescent questioning their sexuality or gender identity is mentally unwell. You want parents to know because you want parents to "set them straight" (so to speak).
"Well-adjusted parents wouldn't need their kids' teachers to tell them that their kids are gay or trans, because their kids would just tell them that on their own."
That's just an absurd categorical statement to make without any support. Every situation is different, and parents need to be able to make informed decisions about their children while in possession of all the facts.
And in any event, if the parent had been living at home with the kid and had experience observing the kid presenting and identifying as his actually sex, it's quite possible that the parent would know that the kid was not trans.
Not only that but activists like Simon will apply any standard given in any way they choose regardless of the differences. The appropriate argument and discussion for college students will be applied to 5 year olds as if there is nothing inappropriate with their change in terms.
Didn't realize the education rot had extended so far. A small rural Kansas district.
Time for a new school board.
It's in the deep south and everywhere else
It's a university town with a large military base nearby.
Here's a radical thought: teach the subject you were hired to teach. Period. Full stop. If this is in any way confusing, then find a different profession.
Do not indulge the whims of children. They all have first and last names. Use those names. What the kiddies "prefer" is immaterial outside of generally accepted nicknames that stem from proper names, i.e. most Alexanders go by Alex, and so forth. When you stop indulging nonsense, you tend to get less nonsense.
If you god compels you to rat out an eight-year-old with crappy parents, you picked a really shitty god.
Would this teacher rat on a child who started to express interest in religion -- especially her preferred flavor of religion -- in a circumstance in which she figured the parents would be interested in that development because they disliked superstition?
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
So you support schools going behind parents' backs. Good to know.
If you're god sees all parents as "crappy" to justify the unjustifiable, then you're a shitty person using a shitty god as cover.
Be an adult.
yes, be an adult. Teach the subject you were hired to teach. Do not use someone else's kids as either your private therapy group or struggle session audience.
"If your god compels you to rat out an eight-year-old with crappy parents,"
If your prevents you from sharing a concern with parents that you trust, you've picked a shitty god. And in this case, it's the school system that's purporting to be god.
Kinda creepy that the blocked user seems to enjoy keeping secrets with children. Not the actions of a normal person. And seems to really like those secrets not being shared with parents. Cannot think of a single pedophile ever who did not have identical beliefs.
Do any of you dumbasses believe that this teacher would have disclosed to parents that this child were demonstrating interest in her religion, especially if she knew the parents disapproved of organized religion?
does it ever dawn on you that the job of teacher is not camp counselor, big brother/sister, or substitute parent? It's pretty damn easy to say "this is a discussion you should be having with your parents, not me."
Why did you ignore the point you ostensibly responded to?
Do you think that this teacher should have disclosed to the parents if the kid was demonstrating interest in her religion? If the kid said, "I think I'm going to join this fundamentalist sect," do the parents have a right to know?
"I doubt that schools should generally conceal this sort of information for parents, but that's a policy judgment."
Does this imply that you think schools ARE entitled to generally conceal information from parents, if they want? Because, speaking as a parent, that's not an idea I have much tolerance for.
One might argue that this policy violates the Constitutional right to raise one's children recognized in Pierce v. Society of Sisters.
Also violates the law of my first v a groomer's face.
All-talk, disaffected, seething, bitter, delusional, right-wing bigots muttering about "groomers" and "all of this damned progress" are among my favorite culture war casualties.
The accusation that one is a groomer is a canard. It is also an indicator that the accuser is not someone to be taken seriously.
Even Paul Clement agreed at oral arguments in Kennedy v Bemerton (coach praying after the football game) that if the employee is speaking as part of their job, there is no Free Exercise claim.
On the other hand on Item 3, Clement argued the Pickering test should not apply at all and instead strict scrutiny should automatically apply if the speech is not government speech. I'd like to know Eugene's opinion on that argument.
BTW, you have the same thing for abortion. Someone once pointed out that in many states, if a 12 year old girl wants to get her ears pierced, she needs parental permission, but not if she wants an abortion.
I think the state is wise to presume pregnancy in a 12 year old creates a rebuttable presumption of relatives who are dangerous to the 12 year old.
You don't think it might be teachers who are dangerous to the 12 year old, maybe? And that getting the girl an abortion without letting the parents know might just be a way of shielding the rapist from their wrath?
You haven't really thought through how utterly insane this excuse is: If you really thought it was a relative who'd raped the child, why is you response to that just keeping them in the dark about an abortion, rather than removing the child to safer circumstances?
There are basically no circumstances AT ALL under which it is justified to keep a parent in the dark about their minor child's life, AND let them retain custody.
What's going on here is not an effort to protect the child. It's an effort on the part of the state to assert primacy over the raising of children, and treat the actual parents as merely incidental caretakers with no rights.
Bellmore, what on earth would make you suppose I said, "Keep the parents in the dark and leave it at that?"
What ought to be going on is an effort to give primacy to the safety of the child, in the face of incontrovertible evidence of peril. Whoever got the child pregnant, caution on the child's behalf demands an initial presumption that her circumstances—including her home circumstances and her school circumstances, but not limited to those—were insufficiently protective.
How about teachers call kids by the name the parents decide. You know, since they are the parents. If a kids decides his name is now butthead, do you think the teachers will be forced to use that name, do you?
If some conservative Kansas clingers want their child to be addressed as "Satan's Disgusting And Damned Spawn" (maybe because the child mentioned a dislike for being dragged to Klan and Trump rallies, or started to rebel after noticing the parents seemed unusually supportive of the Duggars), should the teachers address the child in that manner?
Carry on, clingers. Within limits established by your betters, as usual.
Klan rallies would involve the children of Dems. Try again.
You should be nicer, wareagle, lest your betters stop being so gracious toward bigoted, outnumbered, obsolete clingers in the culture war.
There is no rule requiring the culture war's victors to be magnanimous toward the losers.
" “Ms. Ricard believes that God created human beings as either male or female, that this sex is fixed in each person from the moment of conception, and that it cannot be changed, regardless of an individual person’s feelings, desires, or preferences,” states the complaint, "
Intersex issues establish that Ms. Ricard's god is a serious fuckup, lousy at his or her job.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, try to be an adult.
This child should insist that religious belief compels use of the preferred pronouns and that any other attempt at communication be disregarded.
Battle of the Superstition Stars!
There's a similar case pending right now in Wisconsin from the parents' side of things.
So I see; this teacher’s religion forbids her from lying to or being dishonest with her students’ parents.
I will therefore assume that if a student’s poor grades are due to her inadequate skills as a teacher and not to the student’s personal shortcomings, she will truthfully disclose this to the student’s parents, as her religious beliefs require.
PS - I also believe in the tooth fairy…
You believe in the tooth fairy.
That teacher believes in the Bible.
Essentially the same thing.
Weak legal reasoning to get to the right conclusion.
Parental rights -- Try again
I guess some unenumerated rights are more equal than others.
Are parental rights not spelled out in a duly passes laws, both state and federal?
"I guess some unenumerated rights are more equal than others..."
Um, was this controversial?
Ah, yeah. Obviously so. My right to walk across the street is unenumerated. So is my right to manufacture thermonuclear bombs and leave them around set to explode if anybody touched them.
You want these unenumerated rights to be on an equal footing?
I think the transgender angle is distracting people from how dumb the legal reasoning is.
She is setting down a rule that a teacher cannot be required to teach or say anything that the teacher does not subjectively believe to be true.
So if I think the holocaust was a hoax, I can teach that. If I think the earth is flat, no globes in my classroom. If I believe AIDS was a CIA plot to eliminate black people ... you get the picture.
P.S. it is a Hobson's Choice, not a Hobbesian Choice.
Did you somehow miss the fact that she didn't conclude anything about the part of the school rule that dictated what she said in the classroom? The ruling has to do with communications with the parents.
So, hypothetically, supposing the school ordered teachers to teach that the Holocaust was a hoax, and to not tell parents they were doing it, she'd let the order to teach Holocaust denial stand, but allow the teacher to notify Mr. and Mrs Ginsberg that their little kid was being taught that, no, grandpa didn't die in a death camp.
Doesn't matter. If your good faith belief that lying is against your religion gives you (as a government employee) a complete defense against any compelled speech that you believe in good faith to be untrue, it is irrelevant where that speech was to take place.
Did you actually read the article?
There are multiple factors mentioned - how about you look at some of the others? They in no way support your... unusual hypothetical.
Predictably, this comments thread became extremely toxic extremely quickly. Somehow transgender people are the last group that it is still OK to be openly bigoted about. I am not going to dignify any of these comments with a response, I'm just going to say that you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Hating on the transgendered became more common when hating on gays and lesbians became less socially acceptable. It´s all about having a disfavored class to look down upon.
So no actual arguments, eh? Who's being bigoted against trans people?
Conservatives, mostly. The gullible, superstitious ones, especially. The conservatives still bitter that their authoritarian gay-bashing is being made socially unacceptable by all of this damned liberal-libertarian progress.
Progress with Kindergarteners? That kind of progress isn't anything to brag about, Arthur.
I guess those parents lucked out in having an honest teacher. But apparently, if the teacher wasn't so honest, the parents could be kept in the dark.
Don't don your party hats for this "victory."