The Volokh Conspiracy
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Abortion and the Free Exercise Clause
What if a doctor feels a religious obligation to perform abortions, (e.g., because he believes doing so is necessary for him to be the Good Samaritan, by removing a threat to his patient's mental health)?
It seems likely that a majority of the Justices will indeed conclude that there is no constitutionally protected right to get an abortion, because the Constitution "makes no mention" of abortion, and doesn't otherwise implicitly authorize.
But the Constitution does make mention of the free exercise of religion. In Fulton v. City of Philadelphia (2021), six Justices (Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch, plus Breyer, Kavanaugh, and Barrett) took the view that the Free Exercise Clause provide at least some sorts of religious exemptions from neutral, generally applicable laws. Three of them (Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch) took the view that such exemptions have to be given unless denying the exemption is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest. And at least five Justices (Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett) have taken the view that such a "strict scrutiny" level of protection for religious objectors should apply if the laws have some secular exemptions. All of them took the view that "free exercise of religion" doesn't just apply to worship services or religious rituals, but also applies to people's presumptively right to act consistently with their religious beliefs (or to refuse to act when the action would violate their religious beliefs), even when the action or inaction is illegal.
So this brings back an old question, but one that had been not very important so long as Roe and Casey generally protected abortion rights: When are abortions protected by the Free Exercise Clause, even if not through the Due Process Clause?
Here's one concrete hypothetical example:
- Say that a state statute bans doctors from performing abortions, likely with an exception for protecting the life and perhaps the physical health of the mother, but without an exception for protecting the mental health of the mother.
- And say that a doctor sincerely believes that he has a religious obligation (perhaps based on his view of the parable of the Good Samaritan) to do whatever he can to prevent harms to people's health, including psychological health, and that therefore he has an obligation to perform abortions on women who he believes would otherwise be psychologically harmed. (He acknowledges, of course, that his religious obligation is limited by the rights of others, so that he can't, for instance, steal medicine to give it to the woman, or kidnap people to transfer their kidneys to those who badly need a transplant. But he doesn't believe that fetuses count as rights-holding others, at least with respect to the women carrying them, whatever state law might say.)
- He then sues under the Free Exercise Clause, claiming that the ban on performing abortions substantially burdens his religious beliefs, by criminalizing something that he views as a religious obligation.
Under at least the Thomas/Alito/Gorsuch view, it seems like this will bring things back to where they were under Roe, albeit only for abortion providers who have such a religious belief: The provider would have to be exempted from the abortion ban, unless the court concludes that denying the exemption is narrowly tailored to serving a compelling government interest.
Perhaps the Court might eventually conclude that abortion bans are indeed narrowly tailored to serving a compelling government interest (likely in protecting fetal life). But that would be the very sort of question that Roe said had to be asked (and answered "no"), and that the Dobbs draft opinion appears to be aimed at avoiding. Recall that the premise of the draft opinion is not that abortion bans generally pass such strict scrutiny, but rather that "rational-basis review is the appropriate standard for such challenges" to abortion laws under substantive due process, since "procuring an abortion is not a fundamental constitutional right because such a right has no basis in the Constitution's text or in our Nation's history." But, again, Justice Alito's view, expressed in Fulton, is that a presumptive right to religious exemptions from neutral, generally applicable laws does have a basis in the Constitution's text and in the Nation's history.
[UPDATE: One analogy, in case it's helpful. Say that a person believes his religion requires him or at least motivates him to eat a particular kind of meat for certain religious holidays (e.g., he's a Jew who believes that he ought to eat lamb for Passover). But say that California, or some town in California, concludes that all mammals have rights, and that eating mammals is therefore improper. (California has indeed banned the sale of horsemeat for human consumption; naturally, it would take a major cultural change to extend that to all mammals, but say it does.) Under Justice Alito's view of the Free Exercise Clause, it's not enough for the state to say, "we think mammals have the right to life, and there's a compelling government interest in banning the killing and eating of mammals." The Supreme Court would have to actually agree that there is such a compelling government interest. Likewise, to reject a sincere religious objection to the abortion ban, the Court would have to accept that there's a compelling government interest in protecting fetal life, a question that the draft Dobbs opinion deliberately avoided having to decide.]
Of course, all this assumes that the provider has this sincere religious belief, and that the court is persuaded that this is so. (I'm not sure, for instance, whether the Satanic Temple lawsuits are likely to prevail, though I don't know enough about them to be certain.) But I expect that some providers may indeed believe they have a religious obligation to offer what they see as vital help to women who seek an abortion—and recall that the American law of religious exemptions focuses on the objector's own individual religious beliefs, rather than on whether some denomination has adopted the belief as an official article of faith.
This also assumes that the challenge is to a law forbidding people from performing abortions. If a law forbids a woman from getting an abortion, then she would presumably have to raise her own religious objection to the law, based on her own religious beliefs, and would have to show that she is sincerely religiously compelled (or perhaps just sincerely religiously motivated) to get an abortion.
Finally, there are of course many possible implications one can draw from this, including (but not limited to):
- This is indeed the right approach: There is no constitutional right to an abortion, but there is a constitutional right to free exercise of religion, which includes the freedom to do what one's religious beliefs command (or perhaps even just counsel), including performing abortions (if that's what one believes).
- This is indeed the right approach generally, but ultimately there's a compelling interest in protecting fetal life, and abortion bans are narrowly tailored to that interest.
- All this just shows that viewing the Free Exercise Clause as securing a right to exemption from neutral, generally applicable laws is a bad idea (cf. my argument here, though it discusses other subjects than abortion).
- All this shows that at least the Free Exercise Clause shouldn't be read as requiring strict scrutiny of denials of religious exemptions, but something less (as Justice Barrett's concurrence in Fulton suggests might be right)—what, exactly?
There's of course much more to be said about this, and perhaps I'll say a bit more in the coming days. But for now, I wanted to flag this, and see what you folks have to say about it.
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What if a doctor feels a religious obligation to perform abortions, (e.g., because he believes doing so is necessary for him to be the Good Samaritan, by removing a threat to his patient's mental health)?
What religion would that be?
Satanism?
Why not Catholic?
There appear to be plenty of cafeteria Catholics these days. It might be reasonable to call describe most current Catholics that way, at least in the United States.
Didn't the Southern Baptists approve abortion while currently active physicians practiced?
The hard veer to the right, and toward Republican positions, among many Christians is relatively recent.
Oh... you mean like a Biden Catholic?
Catholic death penalty fans . . . Catholic bigots . . . Catholics who use contraception . . . other Catholic bigots . . . immigration-disdaining Catholics . . . divorced Catholics . . . even more Catholic bigots . . . remarried Catholics . . . Catholics who favor Republican tax policies . . .
Doesn't have to be the official teaching of a religion; it's enough if the person sincerely believes that. I certainly know lots of people who believe that doctors should indeed perform abortions, precisely because doing so helps their patients -- my guess is that religious people believe that for reasons tied to their religions, just as irreligious people believe that for reasons tied to their secular philosophical beliefs.
More broadly, I take it many religious people believe that they ought to do what they can to ease people's suffering (especially if they have some specialized skills that can help with that). Naturally, they don't think that it's OK to ease A's suffering by murdering B. But if they think abortion isn't murder (and isn't even particularly morally wrong), then it seems to me quite plausible that they might think that they ought to provide an abortion that will help a woman be happier and mentally healthier and lead the life that she wants.
Eugene - I agree that the belief qualifies if it a sincerely held religious belief. However, with the exception of the very callous, a high percentage of women who have had abortions have long term regrets / long term mental anquish.
Factual assertions without any supporting evidence are obviously true.
What else would you like to overwhelmingly prove to be true?
Joe, even if true, how many people are (or were) in marriages that they deeply regret? Or wish they had taken another career path? Or started smoking? Or made any number of other choices they now regret?
If we're going to take choice away because some people will later regret their choices, there won't be much choice left.
That seems rather irrelevant to a Free Exercise claim, doesn’t it?
"...a high percentage..." might be in the eye of the beholder. A more precise figure is available from a recent study:
"We found no evidence of emerging negative emotions or abortion decision regret; both positive and negative emotions declined over the first two years and plateaued thereafter, and decision rightness remained high and steady (predicted percent: 97.5% at baseline, 99.0% at five years). "
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953619306999?via%3Dihub
But that brings us back around to Dr. Kevorkian. American law generally prohibits the physician from actively assisting in a 'suicide' and even though Dr. Kevorkian seems to have been motivated by sincere concern for relief from suffering, his conviction was upheld and in recent decades nobody has tried to make a new test case.
You do make an interesting argument that Thomas, Alito and Gorsusch make an argument for extending certain liberties to those with sincerely held religious beliefs, but if (and this is a significant if) a law forbidding abortion is stated in terms of protecting the potential human life of the fetus, then religious belief only gets one so far, and probably not over that hurdle.
On the other hand, if the ban is grounded in 'abortion is icky and the woman is a sinner', then the religious exemption might get somewhere.
"and even though Dr. Kevorkian seems to have been motivated by sincere concern for relief from suffering, his conviction was upheld and in recent decades nobody has tried to make a new test case."
I lived in Michigan not too far from where he was operating. He had been safe as long as he actually followed his procedure of only assisting the suicide, and required the person committing suicide to actually trigger his machine, if only by curling a finger.
They finally nailed him when he took the step into active euthanasia.
I'm convinced he had some sort of martyr complex, and was trying to get convicted.
Even as an unofficial religious belief, a specifically religious belief (as opposed to an ethical or moral belief) that one needs to perform abortions is very unlikely to pass muster. Like a religious belief that someone simply cannot pay taxes... It doesn't really work.
On the other hand, if there's a more general religious belief that says that you need to help people...that also is subject to various restrictions. Assisted suicide is still illegal in many states, even if you have a sincere religious belief that you are "helping" the people. Likewise, providing illegal drugs to people under the religious belief you are "helping them" is still illegal.
All mainstream religions supported vaccines in formal statements. The Supreme Court may be recognizing made up shit by a sole member of a new religion. The lawyer occupation is filled with fictitious doctrines. That is why it stinks so bad.
wow, moron, it's almost like the 1A doesn't just protect "mainstream" religions (whatever the hell that means)
The religion would be similar to ancient practices around the globe that believed human sacrifice would bring successful harvests, or other materialistic benefits. Kinda similar to beliefs being taught today, you must sacrifice children for career advancement and the like.
Lol, you hate the 1st Amendment.
The Constitution doesn't restrict who's entitled to free exercise.
It restricts what "free exercise" you're allowed.
Otherwise unwilling human "sacrifice" would be perfectly legal
Assuming that the court doesn't just say the magic words.
If you'd have read the article, he says ... Oh, forget it.
I see he did. I missed it.
"(He acknowledges, of course, that his religious obligation is limited by the rights of others, so that he can't, for instance, steal medicine to give it to the woman, or kidnap people to transfer their kidneys to those who badly need a transplant. But he doesn't believe that fetuses count as rights-holding others, at least with respect to the women carrying them, whatever state law might say.)"
What if the doctor sincerely believes that "thou shalt not steal" is an outdated commandment, so he gets to steal medicine? Or what if his sincere religious belief is that people with healthy kidney's are obligated to give their kidneys to others, and that the doctor is divinely commissioned to carry out that duty?
So this is another silly example of "we got you now, you hypocritical right-wing clingers!"
It's the human-sacrifice scenario again, which has been discussed and debunked before - there's a compelling government interest in protecting human life, and the least restrictive means of doing this is to punish those who take human life. Otherwise you get to throw virgins in volcanoes or set off bombs in supermarkets to kill infidels.
Obviously, no such right was recognized before 1990, and the right (say) of the Amish to educate their children didn't lead to a right of Islamic terrorists to blow up airliners.
You've dumped enough straw there to burn down the courthouse.
You haven't heard the human-sacrifice argument before when used against religious freedom?
I must have missed the "compelling government interest" clause.
Is this really much of a debate? Don't first year law students blow through this on the first quarter. You can say that about anything. Maybe a person can claim they have a religious desire to commit murder or making child pornography. What matters is if it a sincere belief of a long established tradition and its not too crazy an ask on society.
AmosArch: What matters (at least under the Alito view of the Free Exercise Clause) is whether it's a sincere belief, whether it's substantially burdened, and whether denying the exception is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest. There is no "long established tradition" requirement.
Are there no limits to your desire to speculate on what may be used to justify killing woman's "mistake"?
This speculation is entirely reasonable. Rights, laws, etc. are often in conflict with one another. The logic used in one case may well be applicable in another. Speculating about those possibilities is something that SHOULD be done. Justices and lawmakers should think about how their decisions may be applied in other circumstances and what the implications of their reasoning are.
The key there is the compelling government interest.
If the government has a law that it has passed, and there aren't exceptions for people under similar circumstances, one would say it the law the government just passed is a compelling interest.
Now, where you may see a difference is a judge say that a law the government just passed isn't a compelling interest. That of course puts the judge's view above that of the government.
If the government has a law that it has passed, and there aren't exceptions for people under similar circumstances, one would say it the law the government just passed is a compelling interest.
No. Maybe an equal protection claim, but the way to test if there's a substantial government interest is to weigh the government's interest and make a judgement of whether it's substantial.
You just reinvented rational basis. For a law you like, natch.
You give armchairs a bad reputation.
seethe lol
There is no more a religious right to kill a child than there is to offer a human sacrifice to the "god" in the volcano.
If your religious act violates the rights of another I suggest that it is not a right at all.
Whether a fetus is a child is a legal question, not your personal belief; does the leaked draft opinion even address that?
African slaves were humans with rights whether the law or anyone else believed it.
Some truths are self-evident ...
African slaves had been born.
wow it's almost like it's an analogy or something
It's a perfect example of why argument by analogy is often fallacious. But then, I'm not sure there's any point to discussing logic with someone who thinks "cry more lib" is a valid argument.
Nice question-begging.
No, it's not question begging. It's demonstrating why the analogy is inappropriate. It seeks to compare people who have been born to fetuses that have not been born. So not only is it not an apples to apples comparison, it isn't even apples to some other fruit.
A fetus is certainly a child, in multiple meanings, unless you think it springs fully grown from the void, lacking any genetic inheritance from previous humans.
Whether or not the child gets legal protections, which ones, and when are the questions - and they are nothing but personal beliefs.
And the law follows along after those beliefs.
Hobby Lobby violated the statutory right of its workers to receive certain types of contraception. No protection?
No, they did not
They certainly did. There was a whole Supreme Court case about it and everything.
What a moron
I took DWB to be making a moral, not a legal point. As a moral matter, IMHO, Hobby Lobby, being a private employer, should be free to offer its employees whatever benefits it wants. The moral outrage in the Hobby Lobby case isn't Hobby Lobby "violat[ing] the statutory right of its workers," it's ObamaCare, which presumed to dictate to Hobby Lobby the benefits it had to offer to its employees.
"ObamaCare, which presumed to dictate to Hobby Lobby the benefits it had to offer to its employees."
That's just a dysphemistic way of saying the workers had a statutory right. A right that the Supreme Court said the corporation could violate based on a phony claim of "religious freedom". If your point is that the "violation of the rights of others" distinction is not the law, then we agree. Current free exercise jurisprudence holds that a party violating the rights of others *can* claim religious exemption, at least when it's faux-Christian billionaires trying to flout protections for workers. It stands to reason that abortion providers should be able to do the same. Goose, gander, and all that.
They DID offer some 17 other types of contraception. If you demand just one specific type, seems to be your issue. Not their issue.
No rights were violated. You don't have the right to have other people buy stuff for you.
There may be a huge opportunity here for the Congregation Of Exalted Reason and some other modern (or timeless) religions.
Some predicted this.
"Men go crazy in congregations
They only get better one by one"
-- Gordon Sumner
This post is hilarious. The doctor would lose very quickly. Constitutional Calvinball. The Republican SCOTUS will easily find that the state has a legitimate interest in stopping abortion.
It sure sucks when an activist court does stuff.
Let’s see how you like an enlarged Court, clingers.
with what Democratic Senate, moron?
He really gives trolls a bad rap
You guys figure Republicans will defy demographic trends with a miracle and hold the Senate forever?
Is your ignorance attributable to adult-onset superstition, or was your ability to reason damaged for life by childhood religious indoctrination?
It’s a serious argument. Alito is author of Fraternal Order of Police v. City of Newark, a 3rd Circuit case that held that since the City of Newark lets police officers avoid shaving for medical reasons, it must let them grow beards for religious reasons as well. And the opinion didn’t prioritize kinds of medical exemptions. It said if you give medical exemptions, you must give religious exemptions. Alito has taken that position consistently since.
So the fact that medical exemptions have a legitimate basis is irrelevant. The issue is Alito’s belief that if you have any exceptions, however legitimate, a law isn’t “universal” and hence religion must also be exempted. It’s an interpretation of Smith that effectively makes religious protections stronger than before Smith. It turns Smith from a shield into a sword. (Almost) every law has some exception or other. So if you take Police v Newark seriously, religious people get to be exempt from (almost) every law.
This was an issue waiting to happen.
Religious people are only going to be exempt in the specific way and circumstances that non-religious people are. Medical exemptions are pretty common. So, if there's a medical exemption to taking the stairs for some people, and for some reason people have a religious objection to taking the stairs, then yes...you need to grant their wishes. If there's no exemption to taking the stairs, then you need to grant a new religious exemption.
There's no medical (or any other) exemption to theft or murder. So, you need not grant a religious exemption.
But if Roe is reversed, it’s a pretty good bet that there will be states that pass abortion laws that have various exceptions, including medical exceptions. And that’s the issue Professor Volokh is talking about. Why isn’t abortion ecactly like getting to use the elevator? If people get to have an abortion for medical ressons, why shouldn’t they get to have an abortion for religious reasons? That’s the argument Professor Volokh is bring up. And it will be raised.
I've heard of people doing abortions using hand-held 25-cc syringes, and using coat hangers, and using knitting needles, and using slippery-elm, and using chemotherapeutic medications. But I've never heard of anyone trying to terminate a pregnancy by using an elevator! How, exactly, would that be done? How would you set about trying to do it?
Not quite. The issue Professor Volokh brought up is needing to perform abortions for religious reasons.
Needing to obtain one for a religious reason is quite different.
Some rabbis have already raised the question of defining the beginning of life, obtaining abortions for the health of the mother, etc. as a religious issue. I agree with you that it's not the point of this post, but it's an entirely reasonable topic for discussion and follows pretty clearly from Alito's prior decisions.
The idea that if you allow medical exemptions then you also must allow religious ones is wrong (IMHO). There is a huge distinction between "I medically can't" and "I don't want to".
There is also a huge distinction between "I don't want to" and "I believe it violates my religious beliefs".
And that distinction is … what exactly? Given that, as EV has said here, a litigant need not ground their free exercise claim in any established religious doctrine, what is to stop someone who doesn’t want to do X from simply saying “God told me not to do X?”
There's lots of legal precedent on answering that question.
There is some precedent purporting to answer that question, but none that has done so coherently.
Thank God Covid is over! So its good-bye to the silly little "follow the science" and "Gov't Mandates' Game...
and hello 'My Body - My Choice' and the baby killin'
Presumably, since you think the two issues are equivalent, you must be pro-choice on abortion. Otherwise, you would have no problem with vaccine and mask mandates, right?
A ban is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest of protecting human life. Strict scrutiny won't help the abortionist if the only secular exceptions are very narrow like mother's life.
S/C is going to dodge it anyway for quite a while, assuming we can find an abortionist whose tongue won't cleave to his or her mouth.
One possible way of looking at things is the Court’s “too much accommodation” cases. The Supreme Court held that a law that lets sabbath observers and only sabbath observers take a day of their choice (their sabbath) off work so encourages sabbath observance that it effectively establishes sabbath onservance, hence violates the Establishment Clause.
Might something similar apply here?
What is the legal definition of when life begins?
Everyone keeps dancing around that, assuming it begins according to their personal belief, for everyone, regardless of what the law says.
"legal definition of when life begins"
The scientific definition is when a female human egg is fertilized and forms a zygote.
There is no legal agreement. There has been no legal agreement for a long time. Perhaps it would be a step forward to mandate a uniform standard:
There will never be legal agreement on when life begins. Therefore, no answer to that question can be admitted in evidence in any court, nor presumed as a matter of law.
It is interesting that the usual cries of "follow the science" are not raised in this argument. There is no scientific question.
But as SL points out there is a big legal question, not "when does life begin", but "when does human life become a legal person with legally recognized rights."
If that position holds, it would give states two choices. Strict no-exception abortion laws, or free abortion for all. Anything in between would let people get abortions if they simply made a religion claim.
That approach might result in a handful of states going ahead with the strict no-exception abortion laws. But it will more likely result in states that would have considered some limits not doing so (or doing so and having those limits effectively nullified by broad religious exemptions).
A key argument against Roe is that it prohibits the political process from making compromises that result in half a loaf. Requiring all or nothing would equally short-circuit the political process and prevent legislative solutions in most cases. Frequently, when the choices are all or nothing, the end result is nothing. All is often much harder to come by than it appears.
It’s a much more serious issue than it appears.
"Anything in between would let people get abortions if they simply made a religion claim."
You can't kill under a religion claim.
Unless you reject a vaccine and spread lethal virus?
Clingers will pull every lever and push every button they can while they still can. And they should. Unless they persuade more Americans to become superstitious, bigoted, backward, and ignorant, though, they will not be able to hold on much longer.
Then, the reckoning.
Will conservatives be able to restrain their whining, whimpering, and weeping when better Americans impose adult supervision?
Suddenly, Bob isn't so fond of religious exemptions.
Suddenly, you are. I guess you're fine with religion as long as it gets you the excuse you need to murder babies
Jacobins against Feuillants, Montagnards against Girondins, Conservatives against Progressives….it is a good thing we do not live in a society led my religionists with their man-made myths
/sarc
Your childish gullibility and superstition are showing. Did your parents cripple your ability to reason with childhood indoctrination, or did you lose your relationship with the reality-based world to adult-onset superstition?
You guys might be my favorite disaffected culture war casualties.
I think the circumstances of the abortion are what's important here.
Think of this like a law against murder. Murder is illegal. There's isn't a religious exception to murder. There's also not a medical exception that says "well, this person is a sociopath, so it's OK if they murder people".
On the other hand, "murder" is legal in specific circumstances. For example, self defense or state executions. But that doesn't mean that you can argue "well, you have state executions, so that means there must be a religious exemption to murder"
No. Do not think of it like a law against murder. Because first term abortion is nothing like murder.
With zealous anti-abortion prosecutors hard at work, there can never be an end to second- and third-term abortions either. They have to remain legal to protect doctors who provide care for cases where a fetus dies in the womb of natural causes, and has to be removed for the health of the mother.
" Because first term abortion is nothing like murder. "
Because in that statement, you have presumed the position that you claimed above does not exist.
If, and only if, the legal position is that a fetus is a legal person after the first division of fertilized egg, then the first term abortion would be murder
Nico, nope. I can grant hypothetically that a 1st-term fetus is a legal person, and still reasonably deny that to kill it is murder. Consider, for instance, the notable difference in self-awareness between a post-birth murder victim, and a 1st-term fetus.
You can check it out for yourself. What do you remember from your 1st-term fetus-hood?
Perhaps more relevant, although subtler, what are the relative investments in personal development on either side of the comparison?
Also, to say that murder kills a person is to presume not just the end of a biological entity, but extinction of a personality. Can you discern personality in a 1st-term fetus?
Lots of notable and important differences. They are so unlike that, "murder," properly applies to a person post-birth, but not during a 1st-term pregnancy.
Whether the law grants personhood alike to both is an arbitrary distinction—to be done or undone in response to custom, whim, caprice, or politics—but not anything which can be inferred from observation or experience.
SL,
What do you call the killing of a legal person with declared rights under the the 14th A?
I realize that this is a hypothetical. But that "murder" only applies to a legal person after they have made it outside the womb is highly questionable. Does a 20 week old premie delivered by C-section suddenly get self-awareness by being taken out of the womb? I doubt it.
But what would you call the deliberate killing of this 20 week-old?
What call it? Not a first-trimester fetus. Blurry lines still function as dividers. Your 20-week-old is out of the blurry area.
You've misinterpreted the analogy. Let's try again.
Think of this like a law against speeding. Speeding is illegal. There's no religious exemption to speeding. There's also not a medical exemption that says "This person is has a trill-seeking complex, so they are allowed to speed".
On the other hand, speeding is allowed in very specific context. If a police officer is chasing a suspect or rushing to a crime in progress, or an ambulance needs to get someone to a hospital, they are allowed to legally speed. But that doesn't mean that "oh, there's an exemption to speeding for police officers in pursuing a suspect, so that means there must be a religious exemption to speeding laws"
Perhaps we should conclude from your example that laws should be considered generally applicable even if they have exemptions.
That's a fair argument for why protecting fetal life is a compelling government interest. However, wouldn't that imply a woman who gets an abortion should be prosecuted as a first-degree murderer?
I think this exact issue is a big reason why Kavanaugh and Barrett were so hesitant to sign on to Alito’s “if you make a medical exception you must make a religious exception” interpretation of Smith. I think they grasped the implications.
And frankly, this exact issue was also why I focused on the state interest issue, hence the continuing analogy to extraterritorial aliens. Designation as a constitutional person doesn’t determine the heightened interest question.
Couldn’t you make the argument that the interest in preventing abortion meets strict scrutiny. Like if the theory to pass the law is fetus=human life at [x] weeks, I don’t think it’s hard to make the case that prevention of abortion is a compelling interest.
Thankfully, several other commenters have pointed out how stupid the professor's premise is. In a post-Roe world, the state can again define human life as beginning--and being worthy of protection--before birth. As such, no one's religious beliefs can intrude on the pre-born human's life.
The 9/11 terrorists sincerely believed that running airplanes full of innocent people into buildings was their religious imperative. That didn't mean they had a constitutionally protected right to do so. Likewise, one might steal to be a "Good Samaritan," sincerely believing that doing so is necessary and justified to feed the poor, but no one seriously believes the state can't punish them.
In short, I have a great deal of respect for the professor. But this is just dumb, and I would have hoped he realized that while writing this, if not well before he hit "submit."
Ensoulment is a religious concept, and hence would not apply to a fertilized egg or small fetus. Larger ones approaching viability may be of sufficient stuff to be considered human, with margin for error, as is any born person, even acephelous. The latter is fine for argument.
But any blanket ban is inherently religious, and should be rejected.
"Ensoulment"
No one knows when that happens. We do know that human life begins with a fertilized ovum.
"Larger ones approaching viability may be of sufficient stuff to be considered human"
If a 6 week old fetus (for example) is not human, what is it? Snake, bird, frog, fish?
Jewish fetuses don't become "viable" until they graduate from law school or medical school.
Surely you concede a secular justification for laws against murder. A ban on abortion at some stage of pregnancy might be viewed as merely defining the margins of that law.
Some states do want to simply define abortion to be murder, moving the threshold from birth or vability back to heartbeat, implantation, or fertilization. Those laws may well be on the books already waiting for a friendly Supreme Court. I am sure a religious mandate to abort will run into a generally applicable and generally respected law.
(Please, red states, don't fall for "every sperm is sacred.")
I don't think your argument is that clear cut.
You are essentially arguing the state can overcome strict scrutiny. But, that requires the courts the accept that protecting fetal life is a compelling government interest on par with protecting you and me. Are the courts supposed to reach that conclusion just because the state declared a fetus should be protected? That strikes me as a tautology.
Yes, in a post-Roe world, that’s exactly what courts are supposed to do. Hell, even now states can restrict abortion post-viability on the very basis that they can consider them human life worthy of protection.
As Eugene pointed out, your conclusion doesn't follow from Alito's draft:
"All this just shows that viewing the Free Exercise Clause as securing a right to exemption from neutral, generally applicable laws is a bad idea"
It is a bad idea, as long as "generally applicable is construed strictly (i.e. narrowly, generally applicable is a real hurdle for the law to overcome).
It is not so bad an idea if "generally applicable" is construed too broadly.
If a doctor could win that argument, then anyone could win it. And then you’d have surgery being performed by people citing their religious beliefs in place of medical school and license.
It’s not something that would happen.
Assuming that a state may consider protection of unborn babies to be a compelling interest, it’s hard to get more narrowly-tailored than making it illegal to kill unborn babies. I don’t think “unless you really believe you should, in which case it’s ok” even survives rational basis.
Creating a fictional cover story for religious concepts of ensoulment, and a god getting mad at you, has no place in law creation.
This will not stop here, sadly. Some states already have itchy trigger fingers to outlaw contraception. See, the religious thing a hateful God hurts this nation for not stopping that.
Which states would like to ban contraception or, for that matter, inter-racial marriage? I am not personally aware of any.
Which states? All the southern states with primary swing-vote blocs highly energized to ban contraception.
Banning contraception is a Catholic thing ... they have no such power in the south.
You obviously missed the recent interview with the Governor of Mississippi.
Are these clingers this ignorant or just disingenuous?
Won’t matter much longer.
Open wider, wingnuts.
Cry more, lib. The Senate will be Republican for at least a decade after 2022.
Don’t expect these hayseeds to reason competently. First, they tend to be half-educated, gullible yokels. Second, they actually believe they are on a Mission From God. And not the good kind, like Jake and Elwood,
You could be right, XD. Or a generational shift combined with a public assessment that repeal of Roe is overreach could reverse that, maybe for even longer.
Political trends would be easier to predict if they were controlled by single causes, but that rarely happens. In the next two election cycles, 8 Republican senators are potentially vulnerable. Swinging as few as three or four senate seats, and holding the house, would give a Democratic administration political power to enlarge the Court at will.
If Roe is in fact overturned completely, enabling total abortion bans, I suggest court enlargement at the earliest political moment possible becomes much more likely than it has been previously. Democrats see the stakes clearly now. They will not forget McConnell's antics. They think a Court majority was stolen from them, and nothing less than a secure majority will be counted sufficient recompense.
If the Democrats do enlarge the Court, expect them to take a big enough majority back to make it quite difficult for Republicans to regain dominance without root-and-branch reform of their politics. That will take along time, and during that interval, Democrats will use their Court advantage to put the nation on a more secure majoritarian footing than presently. These are the political lessons Republicans have taught right along. Repeal of Roe will make them finally sink in.
That will make it hard for fans of minority rule to gloat and taunt so much. If you complain, you will be invited to, "Get an amendment." Don't expect gerrymandered state legislatures to still be there when you want one.
Could we move the focal point of this argument a bit to examine the "on demand" aspect of the radical "pro-choice" position?
Is abortion on demand performed to avoid the birth of a baby of unwanted sex acceptable?
If so. Why?
Isn't that abortion a hate crime?
If not. why not?
Don, I abhor the idea of sex-selection abortion as much as the next person, but if it is assumed that abortion is a right, then *why* someone chooses to exercise a right is mostly irrelevant. There are plenty of rights that get exercised for bad reasons but they are no less rights. It's not like someone loses the right to free speech because he's advocating genocide.
Are you seriously suggesting that women be asked why they want to have an abortion? And who gets to decide which reasons are good and which are not?
It's not a religious belief that a zygote is a living human individual. It's just biology. Cry more, lib.
Funny how most biologists disagree with you.
The zygote is a genetically distinct organism of species Homo Sapiens.
I rather doubt you could come up with a cite showing someone with a PHD in biology disagreeing with the above statement.
Not all organisms are persons, and that's where the dispute is. When Bob asks his usual silly question about if it's not human, then what is it, it misses the point that there's a lot of human life that's not a human person.
I just finished an interesting book that argues that an individual organism may not even be the basic unit of biology. The bacteria and other organisms to which you play host may weigh more than you do, and you, and they, keep each other alive, plus you exchange genetic material with them all the time. So maybe your entire biome may be the basic unit of biology.
All of which is to say that it's far more complicated than merely whether a zygote is a genetically distinct separate human organism.
He didn't say "person", so stop moving those goalposts, K2.
If you mean to argue that certain individual immature humans are not deserving of rights, that is fine - but at least use the correct terms for what you are arguing.
I know he didn't say person and that's my point. Persons have rights. Non-person organisms don't.
"Persons" have rights because you granted certain rights to "persons". There is nothing preventing humans outside of that definition (what definition are you using, anyway?) from having rights.
And in fact, there is a great deal of tradition supporting the idea that unborn humans DO have rights, even if you don't define them as "persons".
"All of which is to say that it's far more complicated than merely whether a zygote is a genetically distinct separate human organism."
Yes it is, more complicated.
But XD didn't claim any more than the zygote being a genetically distinct separate human organism.
However, that is enough by itself to refute the pro-choice activists who claim it's just part of the mother's body.
I don't recall hearing anyone say it's part of the mother's body, probably because that would be a ridiculous argument. Please put the straw back in the barn on your way out the door.
You've never heard pro-choice activists say "My body, my choice"?
The "my body, my choice" argument necessarily depends on an assumption that the fetus is just part of the mother's body.
None of that is necessary for rational basis. The state has an interest in the state’s future. Babies yet to be born are part of that future. Future citizens pay taxes, build things, fight in defensive wars, etc. The state's interest is easy to argue. Rational basis is a low bar.
Your attacks on strawmen are irrelevant. Don’t be a bigot and you won’t look so much like a fool.
Many a criminal has committed a crime, claiming God commanded him to do it. I don't know that a First Amendment defense has ever been tried in one of those case, much less succeeded. Could someone claim the Great Commission as an excuse to commit trespass anywhere to "'go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"?
It seems a more realistic example might be a doctor who performs a female genital circumcision for ostensibly religious reasons. I think the obvious line would be between committing a positive act and refraining from committing an act, the First Amendment generally protecting the latter, not the former. A conscript into the army may claim religious scruples forbid him from firing at enemy soldiers, but not they require it.
There seems to be a presumption here that abortionists will break the law. Some, no doubt, will. Assume a state has a law allowing abortion up to 15 weeks, and an abortionist performs one at 20 weeks. It seems a successful prosecution would be nearly impossible. What evidence would be available? It's not as if the fetus will still be around. Even in the unlikely case the woman who procured the abortion or someone who assisted the doctor with the procedure testified against him, he could claim in his medical opinion the gestational age of the fetus was 15 weeks. He would be an expert in the area, after all.
My example was Jihadi John. If people get an exception to murder laws for self-defense, why shouldn’t he get an exception for religiously mandated Jihad? You don’t want Jihad, then eliminate all exceptions to the murder laws and enforce them in the genuinely universal, neutral way Smith requires. Otherwise, you have to put up with John slicing off a few infidel heads every now and then. Religion gets most-favored-nation treatment. Allow an exception for something else, ya gotta allow an exemption for John’s religion.
ReaderY, that runs into the, "Everyone knows that's stupid," exception, which probably controls. The law often tends toward a foolish consistency, but thankfully tends to fall short in the most extreme cases.
Having spent decades in waiting for the lucky opportunity to kill Roe, do you seriously think any two of the conservatives that voted to kill it would side with a religious exemption claim, just because it has the word "religion" in it?
What nonsense.
That reasoning should hold until better Americans enlarge the Court,
Unless someone wants to predict that clingers are going to reverse the tide of the culture war.
Of course they wouldn't. They don't really believe in an expansive reading of the free exercise clause as a general principle, only when it gets them to the desired result in other cases.
Drinkwater, desired results are the political lesson Republicans have long taught. Expect repeal of Roe, if it happens, to make Democrats more attentive and energetic students than previously.
The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America released a statement last week regarding the Court's potential overturning of Roe. the statement includes the following:
Whoops, forgot to escape that blockquote tag after the first paragraph. The Orthodox Jewish Congregation's statement did not include the last two paragraphs.
In other words, exactly Professor Volokh’s argument is alteady being made. And if the Orthodox people are making the argument, you can be pretty sure the Conservative and Reform people are going to be making it even more strongly.
Oops, sorry, disnmt sed you inserted your own commentsry withing the wuote. So the organization’s statement is implying the argument, but not actually making the argument directly. You’re the one making the argument directly. But I still suspect there will be quite a few religious organizations out there that will be making the argument directly.
The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America released a statement last week regarding the Court's potential overturning of Roe. the statement includes the following:
Yet that same mandate to preserve life requires us to be concerned for the life of the mother. Jewish law prioritizes the life of the pregnant mother over the life of the fetus such that where the pregnancy critically endangers the physical health or mental health of the mother
Sorry, but if your'e giving a "mental health" exception, you're demanding unlimited abortion.
So to include a "mental health" exception is to establish that you are arguing in bad faith
Because there's absolutely 0 chance that Planned Parenthood can't provide as many doctors as needed to sear "her mental health requires this abortion"
What if someone worships Kali and feels a sincere religious belief directing him to strangle travelers he meets on the road? Protected?
So if a state were to say that fetuses are persons and abortion is murder for hire, would an abortionist's free exercise rights constitutionally protect that murder?
Steed, expect an enlarged Court to reject Kali, and entertain mainstream religious objections. Results-oriented jurisprudence, once taught, will be hard to unlearn. As a matter of practical politics, judicial precautions to put the nation on a more majoritarian footing will firm up the lesson.
Before outright repeal of Roe, right wingers should ponder the stakes carefully. Especially right wingers with Supreme Court seats. They should reckon the possibility that Democratic opposition will not continue feckless forever. Pelosi and Biden are old, and Democratic Party underlings are restive.
I know you're a legal scholar exploring different possible arguments but I don't think it's out of line at all for me to speak out about how incredibly offensive this is. I'm not a lawyer so let me explain in a plain manner
What is at stake here is women's equality.
Just indulge me for a minute while I paint a picture of the kind of 'health care' these anti-abortion zealots have created and which is already happening in Catholic hospitals, thanks to a preposterous religious exemption that forces Catholic care on thousands of women served by major Catholic hospitals in this country, and the nurses, doctors and staff working in them. (Mostly, the religious freedom served belongs to a handful of invisible bishops because the patients and doctors all know or soon discover, their religious procedures are no substitute for those based on standard medical care and good medical judgment)
Abortion law affects ALL prenatal care, NOT just voluntary abortions.
Under bans of any kind, pregnancy risks increase, and outcomes worsen. Abortion law is a part of the law of prenatal care. It reaches all the way. It bears on miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, still birth and other serious pregnancy complications.
The procedures they force into place are incompetent, medically dangerous, and are totally incompatible with the judgment of a doctor in a fast-moving medical emergency or urgent situation.
This focus on voluntary abortions - totally appropriate abortions in my opinion - has dominated and obscured the the record of Catholic hospitals, which has been a kind of petri dish for us, as they run major hospitals in this country serving thousands of women and have been operating as if abortion is illegal under their religious exemption.
Women are dying or coming close to it from things like miscarriages -- totally preventable illnesses, injuries and deaths. (And no, those women did not go into it as fully informed, practicing Catholics, they just went to the local ER, sometimes the ONLY ER in their cities. So much for free practice of religion. And even if they WERE fully informed, practicing Catholics, they are left in shock when they realize how misguided and idiotic the procedures are)
Women have a right to standard medical care free of the second guessing of strangers demanding that medicine dumb itself down and demand that doctors violate medical ethics. How dare they?
As for religion, most of them seem to have a better fundamental grasp on reality than the zealots pursuing this agenda. Pagan practices did, Reform-Jewish people are even speaking out that abortion is required in Reform Judaism and quoting passages that are over 2000 years old of various pregnancy related cases and what to do about them that have more folk wisdom to them than any Catholic hospital or a certain collection of five killers currently sitting on the Supreme Court.
Don't ask, either, how long abortion has been legal, ask how long it was illegal - not long. None of this was questioned so much until it became possible to perform surgical abortions. At that moment someone decided that women shouldn't' make health decisions with their doctors.
I don't know why the GOP doesn't just try to claim eminent domain over women, except they would have to pay them what they're worth and they hate that idea too.
You have absolutely no appreciation of how radical and incompetent the medical care is when abortion is outlawed, and that is not even counting what the procedures will be under the most draconian and punitive laws being passed in the states.
These states will be denying health care to women in favor of procedures that are wicked, based on spectral medicine, will kill them and seem to come out of some kind of renegade Protestant sect's catechism. I don't know what people think they are doing volunteering women for this against their will
I don't care if you half wits want to play dumb kid games in the fields of the Lord, it's just that the field isn't women's bodies
Random thoughts.
Way back when my Dad went to med school at St. Louis University and was trained by some guy who won a Nobel Prize for creating some kinda instrument (super forceps) for use in delivering babies; not to mention my Dad learning how to what happens if deliveries are not done properly (a different name for the A word).
Thing is my Dad would never do abortions and was encouraged not to do them by my Mother. As almost everyone knows medical doctors pay obscene amounts for liability insurance and a rider for doing abortions has an even more obscene cost. Since my Mother kept the books for my Dad's medical office it is easy to understand why both of them were against him performing abortions.
The dirty little secret peeps keep trying to sweep under the rug is from an economic stand point it makes no sense for doctors to perform abortions. On the other hand for society as a whole there are benefits from performing abortions.
As an aside since no one has mentioned it yet I have post this link to an interesting case where the courts found a religious exemption claim to be bogus.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/pastafarian-sues-nebraska-prison-citing-violation-religious-liberty#:~:text=Pastafarian%20Sues%20Nebraska%20Prison%20Citing%20Violation%20of%20Religious,legal%20complaint%20against%20the%20state%E2%80%99s%20Department%20of%20Corrections.?msclkid=35ae47e1cff111ec8de6f542832dcc11
The dirty little secret peeps keep trying to sweep under the rug is from an economic stand point it makes no sense for doctors to perform abortions.
I'm not sure that's true as a general case. While I don't know about the liability rider for performing abortions, I do know that's not a federally universal system. You are describing a situation that is almost certainly jurisdiction-specific.
It should be obvious from the tiny number of medical doctors who perform abortions there is not a huge supply of doctors that perform them. In fact often times the doctors who do perform abortions go from state to state and have no insurance (so suing them is not a real option). Many states have pasted laws mandating doctors have admitting privileges at local hospitals since even a single botched abortion can cost a hospital millions to treat a patient who often has no way of paying.
Back in the day doctors with paying patients would perform an abortion and call it a "hysterectomy" for insurance purposes; and that still goes on today. The differences is non paying patients can go to Planned Parenthood and get a subsidized abortion paid for by other people's money; or even get a back alley abortion sometimes self induced.
Truth be told there is top tier medical care for paying customers and lower tier medical care for those who can't (hope that does not shock you too much).
What makes abortions profitable for a small number of rent seekers like Planned Parenthood is government and NGO support and a few doctors who basically specialize in doing them. Problem is for most doctors it is a more lucrative career option to do some other form of health care.
You don't think that the shortage of doctors who do abortions might be due to most people going into the medical profession with saving lives in mind, not ending them?
I think that universalizing your personal morality as though everyone secretly agrees with you is some bullshit, is what I think.
Some doctors agree with you, some don't. But doctors who don't agree with you are still interested in saving lives.
I doubt that Brett.
ragebot and wildleek, anyone who tries to follow an abortion debate knows what a bootless mission it typically becomes. To find two excellent and informative comments, which shed useful new light, is truly exceptional. Thank you both.
S_0,
I doubt your suspicion about legally jurisdiction dependence.
For doctors performing obstetric services, it has become common that will only preform those at a facility that is self-insured. I doubt that the insurance rates are jurisdiction dependent, as opposed to geographically dependent
"almost everyone knows medical doctors pay obscene amounts for liability insurance"
In fact, the insurance rate is "obscenely high" for any practice of obstetrics.
Wasn't human sacrifice once the definitive example of where religious liberty didn't extend to?
Another good reason to reject anti-abortion arguments.
Saying it's up to the legislature is not the same as declaring abortion human sacrifice.
The push for the right to overplay their hand is incredible here.
If you're going to treat abortion as a religious liberty issue, yeah, you're talking human sacrifice.
No, it's not. You're once again not only begging the question, but assuming a great deal.
If I say I have a religious obligation to give to charity, (I do!) that's an obligation to give to charity. It's not highly specific as to the sort of charity, within a fairly wide (but not unlimited) range they're fungible. If the government up and outlaws some specific charitable activity, (Say, only licensed contractors and professionals are permitted to do work on buildings, so I can't put in time helping build housing for the poor.) my religious obligation is not impacted, I can move on to a different charitable activity, because the focus is the charity, not the specific activity.
If I say I have a religious obligation to give to a charity funding activity X specifically, then it's a obligation to X, not an obligation to give to charity.
Similarly, if you say you have a religious obligation to provide medical treatment to the poor, great. Like Dr. Paul, you can do pro bono eye surgery, or what have you, medical treatments that are utterly uncontroversial, even widely admired.
If you say you have a religious obligation to provide medical care and it has to be abortion, you're claiming a specific obligation to abort that can't be satisfied by saving people's eyesight, mending broken bones, or what have you. That's a oddly specific obligation, don't you think? Sounds more like a religious obligation to abort, than an obligation to be charitable.
Human sacrifice, IOW.
"Rabbi Yirmeya raises a question - if one leg is within fifty cubits and one leg is out side the fifty cubits? For this they removed Rabbi Yirmeya from the study hall..." - Bava Batra 23b.
Good lord professor you’re spinning hard for the both sides angle.
Dizzy yet? Abortion is not a right.
My dad was an OB/GYN and he treated high risk patients. During the 1950s he performed abortions in order to save patients' lives. It was all legal and proper under the circumstances. But the 5th one traumatized him. It was a late term abortion and the fetus started moving in his hands. There was nothing he could do and the child died.
After that, dad decided he could no longer perform abortions. When they became more common after 1973 he would refer patients seeking abortions to his colleagues.
My dad's objections to abortions was not religious, it was personal. If a physician finds themselves incapable of performing a specific procedure for personal reasons, should they be forced to?
There is too much information missing from your story. Did he make a medical error? Was it possible that he could have saved them both but for the error? If so, that must be traumatizing. Who can blame him for not wanting to continue
Alternatively, if the baby could not be saved, and he did not make a medical error, if he did the right thing in saving the mother but the doomed infant nevertheless showed signs of life that tore him to pieces, it is equally understandable that this could be heart wrenching and cause him to turn away from doing obstetric medicine any longer.
In either case, his responses are normal and understandable, and in neither case does it say anything about pregnancy and childbirth but that it is what it has always been - a harrowing process that is fraught with risk and made safer by modern medicine.
I don't think this is an argument for outlawing abortion. Abortion is a necessary part of medical care and the law in place was superior to the lunacy unfolding now. This is women's Dredd Scott.
There is nothing with a long history and tradition about these extremists - whose history? What tradition? Abortion was only illegal for something like 80 years out of thousands
PS: None of these people here are even talking about medical care, they are holding amusing discussions about how they will carve up the spoils. The premise underlying all of them are that women aren't even here listening - they're nothing, dust, they're like property. This is their Dredd Scott and they are loving every minute of it
Abortion cases are the only recent example I know of where junk science actually made it to the high court and stuck- was accepted. These cases will go down in history as one of those eras during which the court hit its nadir.
" junk science"
What is the junk science? Please be explicit.
Nico, wildleek has made an adequate case that precluding abortion degrades all obstetric care unreasonably. I thought it was a an excellent comment—more remarkable for detailing somewhat an issue I had not previously found addressed in these typically monotonous abortion debates.
Wildleek hasn't even begun to make such a case. He's barely even made a start on asserting that there's such a case, and in the process is just utterly denying the demographics of the pro-life movement.
Bellmore, you are tone deaf. If you are unable to discern that wildleek is a hospital insider, or someone in good contact with one, then you ought to stand down. The voice of experience deserves credit. With regard to policy, it actually should count for more than ideology—and it is indispensable to temper results-oriented political quests.
" The premise underlying all of them are that women aren't even here listening - they're nothing, dust, they're like property."
The pro-life movement is dominated by women! His argument can't even come to grips with that undeniable fact.
You ARE aware that women dominate the pro-life movement, and that women's opinions on the topic are split down the middle, right?
Why are you disappearing pro-life women?
No one should be forced to do abortions themselves, so long as someone else is available to do them.
"Congress can mandate abortion access under its Tax Powers." - John Roberts, probably
Per the Constitution, there is no right to:
1. Consume tobacco or other psychoactive substances other than alcohol.
2. Own or drive a car
3. Employment
4. Housing
5. Using a restroom for the gender of one’s choosing
6.choosing one’s gender
7. Collect Barbie dolls
8. Have access to the internet
But these supposedly cannot be denied without due process, right? So then, why has nobody challenged abortion bans on due process ?
Because no one dies?
What do you mean "no one dies?"
Well then, how do you explain the death penalty? Or allowing firearms? If the government wanted to protect life above all else…
But, let's used Professor Volohk's exact example, with a slight rewording.
1. "Say that a state statute bans doctors from killing people, with an exception for state-ordered executions"
2. "And say that a doctor sincerely believes that he has a religious obligation a patient's health, including psychological health, even if assisted suicide is the proper obligation in the doctor's opinion"
3. "He then sues under the Free Exercise Clause, claiming that the ban on performing assisted suicides substantially burdens his religious beliefs, by criminalizing something that he views as a religious obligation."
Do you really think that's going to pass muster?
Of course not because protecting the life of a person is a compelling government interest. But, is protecting fetal life also a compelling government interest? Eugene discussed this issue in the OP.
So, the entire rational that needs to be relied upon is....
1) The person has a sincere religious belief they have to perform abortions.
2) The government doesn't have a compelling interest in protecting fetal life or the lives of future citizens.
It...doesn't work. It's like the religious belief that a person shouldn't pay taxes because of their religion.
Protecting the life of a fetus might or or might not work the same as taxation. We don't know because it hasn't been tested and Alito's draft doesn't establish it.
No he's just twisting around I guess to "both sides" it . The both sides folks at Reason try really hard to pull an absurd rabbit out of a hat argument or search for the one instance where conservatives to something heinous which liberals every day and then say see both sides.
I guess what if some crazy religious cult wants to sacrifice virgins.
There are not two sides to this. One side is pro-death which they try and soften to pro-choice. The other is pro-life.
Professor Volokh,
Do you think this issue will cause a revisit of the “too much accommodation” cases? In Thornton v. Calder, the Supreme Court struck down a Connecticut law giving sabbath-observent employees an absolute right to take their sabbath off, on grounds that giving sabbath observers but nobody else a right to take their preferred day of the week off so encouraged sabbath observence as to amount to an establishment of religion.
Thornton v. Calder involved a state law. But could the doctrine perhaps be applied to limit the implications of the constitution’s own free-exercise based accommodation requirements? Letting religious people do something that nobody else is allowed to do could be perceived as an establishment of religion. It tends to encourage people who really want to do something for secular reasons to develop (or at least profess) a religious belief that the thing must be done. It tends to give religious people a preferred status.
It could be argued that there is a balance, and an exemption from too serious a law runs into “too much accommodation.”
Perhaps a religious-right-to-abortion claim might see a revival of the Thornton v. Calder doctrine, which seems to have gone into some disuse.
Eugene discussed this issue during the Hobby Lobby case.
Eugene seems to have a strange faith that the justices actually care about any of this nerdy reasoning. To me it looks like they have decided the outcome and are just finding ways to support the outcome they want.
Toad, that is the way it looks to the Democratic Party, too. And they are taking notes.
Under pre-Smith review, a religion claim requires a compelling, or at least a heightened, interest. And under Police v. Newark, the wxistence of wxceptions, even medical ones, returns matters to pre-Smith review
So does the state have a compelling (or heightened) interest in restricting abortion? Alito’s Dobbs opinion completely sidesteps thsi question by asserting there is no general fundamental right to an abortion, so only a rational basis is needed. But a religion claim for a statute with the sorts of exceptions a moderate abortion restriction would likely have would very likely result in a moderate abortion law failing the universality test of Police v. Newark and hence being subjected to heightened scrutiny rather than secided under Smith.
In my view, the heightened scrutiny question does not depend on constitutional personhood. Exteaterritorial aliens lack the rights of persons under the Bill of Rights. But it seems pretty clear that government can nonetheless restrict citizens’ rights pretty sharply for their protection. It can even require American soldiers in war to expose themselves to additional danger to avoid killing them.
Thus, the idea that heightened government interest in human life exists only for human life that has constitutional personhood status has simply never been the case. Fetuses are in some way analogous to foreigners outside US territory. They have no constitutional rights. They can be killed in war. They are not “persons” as bothes Johnson v. Eisentrager and Roe v. Wade defined the term. The Bill of Rights lacks application to them. Yet they have never been regarded as mere sacks of meat. The fact that the government can choose not to protect them in no way implies that the government cannot protect them.
I think that under Alito’s interpretation of Smith, the women would get her abortion. A moderate abortion law of the sort many states might consider would have various exceptions. These exceptions would be evidence, under Alito’s analysis, that the state isn’t really serious about abortion. They wou show it settled for a half-hearted compromise. And the fact that it did that would defeat the state’s claim that its interest was really compelling.
If abortion is treated like mask requirements or vaccine requirements, which have been subjected to exactly this sort of analysis by Alito (conpromise equals not compelling) in evaluating religion claims, the abortikn restriction fairs no better than tbe vCcination requirement or mask mandate.
If sauce for the goose really is sauce for the gander (perhaps it’s the other way around in this case), if we’re really going to be honest and consistent about our logic and take to the outcomes where tbat logic leads, then that’s exactly the result that Alito’s reasoning in recent cases pitting religion claims against various non-airtight public health measures logically entails when applied to religion claims pitted against non-airtight abortion restrictions.
Democrats are geese. Republicans are ganders. Do not expect this Supreme Court to sauce them alike.
If there is a presumptive right to religious exemptions from neutral, generally applicable laws, when will Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1878) be revisited? George Reynolds believed that he had a religious duty to marry more than one woman.
There isn't. Maybe the dumbest Volokh article ever as he attempts to find that other side to claim see "both sides".
There is a lot of work being done by "neutral, generally applicable laws". I would suggest that far fewer laws that are genuinely "neutral, generally applicable" than most people think.
In re, a religious obligation to abortion. The church is culpable in abortion post Vatican II ecumenism, ‘no one goes to hell’. Promoted by a succession of anti-popes, the Holy See is SEDEVACANT. The Oval Office is SEDEVACANT.
Novus Ordo Watch .org
"What if a doctor feels a religious obligation to perform infanticide, (e.g., because he believes doing so is necessary for him to be the Good Samaritan, by removing a threat to his patient's mental health)?"
Only a jew could construct that argument.
Sorry, but the fact that you think your religion requires you to commit human sacrifice doesn't protect you from murder laws.
And shouldn't
Although I'll be happy for the Courts to disagree, it will give me a strong reason to create a new religion. I promise I will believe it very sincerely.
So if you kill a baby that the State defines as a human being, there's no possible way that can be protected under "free exercise" of your religion
I don't see how Prof V's argument defeats Employment Division v Smith. That case would have to be overruled, unless the underlying law somehow made exceptions for certain non-religious beliefs or otherwise discriminated against religion.
Relatedly, could such a statute be challenged prospectively, or would the abortionist first have to be charged with a violation of the law. If the latter, and the abortionist was risking significant jail time, I guess it would be good evidence of the sincerity of his beliefs.