The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Bit More on the Florida Disney Special Government District Repeal Controversy
I blogged about this controversy Friday, and then quoted Prof. Michael Dorf's and an experienced appellate lawyer's take on Monday. Another lawyer, Dilan Esper, had a Twitter thread pointing to Kensington Volunteer Fire Department v. Montgomery County (4th Cir. 2012), which suggests that the legislature's motivation for repealing the special government district run by Disney (which seems to be disapproval of Disney's speech) is irrelevant:
A group of local volunteer fire and rescue departments ("LFRDs") and several of their former administrative employees … brought suit … contending that Defendants eliminated part of Plaintiffs' funding in retaliation for Plaintiffs' opposition to legislation supported by Defendants.
The district court dismissed Plaintiffs' complaint, declining to inquire into Defendants' alleged illicit motive behind an otherwise facially valid budgetary enactment … We affirm.
The district court's decision relied on U.S. v. O'Brien (1968), in which the Supreme Court declined to "strike down an otherwise constitutional statute on the basis of an alleged illicit legislative motive."
O'Brien considered a First Amendment challenge to a federal statute that penalized the destruction of draft cards. Noting that the law did not facially abridge speech, the Court rejected an argument that the law was nonetheless unconstitutional because its purpose was to suppress free speech. The Court warned that it was a "hazardous matter" to inquire into legislative motives because "[w]hat motivates one legislator to make a speech about a statute is not necessarily what motivates scores of others to enact it, and the stakes are sufficiently high for us to eschew guesswork." Accordingly, the Court "decline[d] to void [legislation] essentially on the ground that it is unwise legislation which Congress had the undoubted power to enact and which could be reenacted in its exact form if the same or another legislator made a 'wiser' speech about it." …
As Plaintiffs concede, the budget is facially valid. And in alleging that Defendants retaliated against them by eliminating funding for the LFRD administrative positions, Plaintiffs challenge Defendants' legislative action. Plaintiffs, however, rely for support on cases in which the alleged retaliation was accomplished via executive action….
In trying economic times, and in response to the loss of $14.1 million in projected revenue following the defeat of the ambulance fee legislation, the County passed a budget that called for difficult cuts felt by many. As the district court concluded "there is no doubt that Defendants had the authority to pass the budget savings plan, and it appears to be a thoroughly ordinary cost savings measure." Confronted with such a facially constitutional budgetary enactment, O'Brien instructs that we not strike it down "on the basis of an alleged illicit legislative motive,"
I appreciate Mr. Esper's argument (which goes into this in considerable detail, and also discusses some possible distinctions between this case and Kensington); but I'm just not sure that First Amendment law really does preclude inquiries into legislative intent. Consider this summary of the law from Reed v. Town of Gilbert (2015):
Although "a content-based purpose may be sufficient in certain circumstances to show that a regulation is content based, it is not necessary." Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. FCC (1994).
That is why we have repeatedly considered whether a law is content neutral on its face before turning to the law's justification or purpose. See, e.g., Sorrell v. IMS Health, Inc. (2011) (statute was content based "on its face," and there was also evidence of an impermissible legislative motive); U.S. v. Eichman (1990) ("Although the [statute] contains no explicit content-based limitation on the scope of prohibited conduct, it is nevertheless clear that the Government's asserted interest is related to the suppression of free expression"); Members of City Council of Los Angeles v. Taxpayers for Vincent (1984) ("The text of the ordinance is neutral," and "there is not even a hint of bias or censorship in the City's enactment or enforcement of this ordinance"); Clark v. Community for Creative Non-Violence (1984) (requiring that a facially content-neutral ban on camping must be "justified without reference to the content of the regulated speech"); United States v. O'Brien (1968) (noting that the statute "on its face deals with conduct having no connection with speech," but examining whether the "the governmental interest is unrelated to the suppression of free expression"). Because strict scrutiny applies either when a law is content based on its face or when the purpose and justification for the law are content based, a court must evaluate each question before it concludes that the law is content neutral and thus subject to a lower level of scrutiny….
Ward [v. Rock Against Racism] (1989) had nothing to say about facially content-based restrictions because it involved a facially content-neutral ban on the use, in a city-owned music venue, of sound amplification systems not provided by the city. In that context, we looked to governmental motive, including whether the government had regulated speech "because of disagreement" with its message, and whether the regulation was "'justified without reference to the content of the speech.'"
This is one reason why I think the issue is difficult: One can indeed argue that the legislative action was unconstitutionally motivated by Disney's past speech, though one can also argue (among other things) that denial of government power (rather than just, say, a tax exemption or a trash hauling contract) based on the powerholder's speech is constitutional, whether the powerholder is (say) an appointed executive official or a corporation that is allowed to run a special government district.
Here is Mr. Esper's response in our e-mail exchange; I don't think it quite disposes of the issue, but I thought I'd pass it along:
My attempt to rationalize the cases, which are indeed all over the place, would be this—I think O'Brien involved a statute that on its face had nothing to do with speech at all. It was a prohibition on destroying or mutilating your draft card. And the government had an interest, however thin it was, in requiring people to keep their draft cards. So the only chance that the defendant really had to overturn the statute was if there's a doctrine that says "even though this is, on its face, a prohibition on the mutilation of an important government form, if you can show that the real purpose of this wasn't to administer the draft but rather to target a popular form of war protest, you win your case". And SCOTUS said you can't do that.
To put it another way, perhaps more clearly, O'Brien is an expressive conduct case. And one of the things that can happen in expressive conduct cases is that the government can ban or regulate the category of conduct for some non-speech related reason. For instance, if a county prohibits its citizens from burning anything or starting any fires in an area of the county with a lot of trees and kindling, we all understand that this prohibition could be enforced against flag burners or draft card burners. And what O'Brien adds is that even if the reason the county passed that ordinance was that people were burning flags out there to protest the government, it wouldn't matter. It's a law that doesn't say anything about speech at all; it just prohibits starting fires. The government can do this, because it has a legitimate interest in the prohibition of fire-starting in a hazardous area, even if they really secretly or openly want to stop flag burning.
And the difference with Reed is Reed is a speech case, not an expressive conduct case. It is a sign regulation, and signs are speech. So now we have to determine whether the sign regulation is content based in how it differentiates some speech from other speech, and Reed says it was. Reagan National Advertising, which just came down, says that another sign regulation that differentiates some speech from other speech wasn't content based. An interesting hypothetical would be what would happen if a municipality enacted an off premises sign ban (the type approved in Reagan National) to target a specific speaker who was dotting the community with off premises signs- would that be considered content based? I don't know. But at the very least, the law seems to be that a speech-suppressive purpose can be considered in determining whether a speech regulation is content based.
This analysis at least fits with the other cases you cite. Sorrell involved the disclosure of medical records—speech. Taxpayers for Vincent was a signage case. Hill was about abortion protest—and upheld the regulation anyway.
As for Ward and Clark, they upheld the regulations, both of which were facially directed at conduct rather than speech. Ward was about sound volume—didn't matter what was playing at that volume and whether it had any expressive content at all. Clark was about sleeping in the park—again, didn't matter why people were sleeping there, even though the government may have been targeting the homeless protesters.
The one case that you could argue is an outlier is Eichman, where the statute just prohibited the burning of a flag for any reason. Perhaps Eichman is a limitation on the O'Brien principle. But perhaps not, because unlike in O'Brien, there was no legitimate reason for the government to be concerned with flag burning anyway. The only reason for the government to worry specifically about burning flags was because they were a form of protest.
So what I think the cases really stand for is: (1) if a statute/ordinance specifically targets speech on its face, you can consider legislative intent when determining content neutrality (Reed); (2) if a statute/ordinance facially targets conduct but there is no legitimate governmental interest in regulating the specific conduct targeted, you can also consider legislative intent when determining content neutrality (Eichman); but (3) if a statute/ordinance facially targets conduct and there is a legitimate governmental interest in regulating the specific conduct targeted, O'Brien applies and legislative intent is irrelevant.
I'm sure that doesn't fit every case out there. But it seems like a plausible way of putting the cases together.
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So we know how this kind of situation sorts out.
It's complicated, which means that if it ever gets to the SC, it gets decided by how the justices feel, not by the kind of stuff analyzed in detail here.
Often it will get short circuited earlier than the SC, by some lesser court deciding, yet again, on feelings rather than precedent. Once the decision is made, then the citations are lined up to fit it.
One might wish it were otherwise.
" The Court warned that it was a "hazardous matter" to inquire into legislative motives because "[w]hat motivates one legislator to make a speech about a statute is not necessarily what motivates scores of others to enact it, and the stakes are sufficiently high for us to eschew guesswork." I love this. No mind reading. Yet, the dipshit judges always talk about legislative intent. Women can't vote because the word person in the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to apply to black males.
Is a bill of attainder a punishment by a legislature of a party without a trial? Why is this action not a bill of attainder?
I support the Florida legislature in its action against the homosexual grromer company, Disney. But the contradictins are blatant.
If removing the power to run their own private government is a bill of attainder, so was creating the power to run their own private government.
Bingo!
Prof. Volokh,
Even if the 1st Amendment ends up not being a valid line of attack against against the law stripping the Reedy Creek Improvement District from Disney and out of existence, there are still many other legal tangles that were clearly barely considered. Perhaps they weren't considered at all in the rush to enact this during the special session.
This comment system doesn't let you make more than one link without it getting stuck in moderation hell, so I'll quote headlines that can be searched easily enough.
"Dissolving Disney World’s Reedy Creek district could break deal with bondholders, bring lawsuits" - from the Orlando Sentinel yesterday (paywall, though)
"The Contractual Impossibility of Unwinding Disney’s Reedy Creek" - Bloomberg Law (no paywall)
The Bloomberg Law article was written by an Orlando-area lawyer specializing in local government matters. He points to Von Hoffman v. City of Quincy (1867), where the Supreme Court ruled that a state or local government cannot simply pass a new law that would impair a contract that it had previously agreed to.
"It is well settled that a State may disable itself by contract from exercising its taxing power in particular cases. It is equally clear that where a State has authorized a municipal corporation to contract and to exercise the power of local taxation to the extent necessary to meet its engagements, the power thus given cannot be withdrawn until the contract is satisfied. The State and the corporation, in such cases, are equally bound. The power given becomes a trust which the donor cannot annul, and which the donee is bound to execute; and neither the State nor the corporation can any more impair the obligation of the contract in this way than in any other."
There would also be questions of whether the dissolution of the special district is consistent with the Florida Constitution. I'm less clear on any barriers there, though.
From what I've read, all six of the special tax districts targeted for removal in the law in question pre-date the current Florida state constitution.
So? Did the rewriting of the Florida Constitution in 1968 invalidate every law or contract the state had prior to that?
Besides, from the Florida Constitution, as revised in 1968:
Section 10. Prohibited laws. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law or law impairing the obligation of contracts shall be passed.
Acts of the state legislature are subordinate to the state constitution just as acts of Congress are subordinate to the U.S. Constitution.
"Did the rewriting of the Florida Constitution in 1968 invalidate every law or contract the state had prior to that?"
Not every law or contract, but that doesn't mean the new constitution couldn't have effectively voided some laws or contracts.
The RCID has a very odd voting structure.
Except for these 6, all other pre-1968 IDs were explicitly re-authorized after the 1968 constitution was ratified.
What happens if a particular contract violates the new constitution?
What if the existing structure of RCID governance violates the current constitution? Are contracts it formed still valid?
The contract argument is a strong one, but I would suggest that without more analysis of the totality of the state constitution vs RCID structure, it's not necessarily a sure thing.
I haven’t seen anyone say that the pre-1968 districts are actually in violation of the the 1968 revised constitution. At least, I definitely haven’t seen anything specific cited along those lines. If they were, then they would have been in violation for over 50 years. They just seem to have pulled that date out of a hat as a superficial justification, obviously because it applies to the RCID and just a few others. As you said, it would require doing far more research. Which is far more than the legislature did before writing and passing this law.
Besides, as lawyers in both of those articles point out, the promise not to interfere in the ability of the RCID to collect revenue to pay back the bonds is in every bond issued, with all such outstanding bonds being issued long after 1968.
This is no big deal. The state has until June 1, 2023 to figure this out.
There are plenty of ways - the state passes a law allow new bonds to be issued to cover the old bonds and allow the counties to tax Disney's properties at the same rate.
Problem solved.
While this is of interest, it is unlikely to ever get decided.
Unsurprisingly, Disney has chosen not to engage with this. Instead, RCID released a statement to its bondholders simply noting that the state cannot impair the rights or remedies of those bondholders.
It's all sound and fury, signifying very little. If this was a meaningful attempt, instead of grandstanding for political purposes, it would have been done very differently.
There is no dispute here about Governor DeSantis's retaliatory motivation. Perhaps the Disney Company should sue him in his individual capacity for damages.
Tell us that you didn't read/understand what you responded to without telling us that you didn't read/understand it.
A confident level of snark from someone who is actually guilty of what he's bitching about.
"The Court warned that it was a "hazardous matter" to inquire into legislative motives because "[w]hat motivates one legislator to make a speech about a statute is not necessarily what motivates scores of others to enact it, and the stakes are sufficiently high for us to eschew guesswork.""
There is no guesswork involved here as to why the legislature passed it.
Crawl back under your rock.
<A confident level of snark from someone who is actually guilty of what he's bitching about.
The pride you take in your own stupidity never ceases to amaze.
There is no guesswork involved here as to why the legislature passed it.
I see you didn't bother to read the piece either, as you've provided the exact same evidence of that as NG did. Even forgetting that you're confusing his charge (his assessment of DeSantis' "motivation") with whatever the FL legislature's collective motivation(s) might have been, nobody was arguing about what those motives are/are not. The issue was whether or not they're relevant to the question of constitutionality of the legislation...you moron.
I did read the piece, which is why I addressed the motivations of the legislature instead of DeSantis.
What you consider to be confusion is your own projection, because I chose my words quite deliberately.
There was a rather obvious piece of evidence that I read the article included in my post, which was the relevant quotation of the article itself. It's also why I said the legislature's motives do not require guesswork.
If you really want to surprise anyone, try saying something intelligent for once.
I know that's asking a lot, but...nah. I can't bring myself to say I believe in you. Sorry.
There is nothing clear when it comes to the law, courts or politics.
Professor Volohk,
I would be extremely wary of using this concept of "retaliation" by court to overturn an otherwise perfectly legal, constitutional law, especially at the state or national level. It is fraught with potential issues and separation of power concerns.
Let's give a case example. Many Democratic politicians have made their dislike for the fossil fuel companies well known. Many don't agree with what the fossil fuel companies say. Others with what they do. Congress (under Democratic leadership) then proceeds to pass a windfall profits tax, while talking about all the bad things the fossil fuel companies say and do. The fossil fuel companies, led by Exxon, sue to stop the windfall profits tax. Exxon says that it's "retaliation" for what Exxon has said in the past.
The law is then put on hold while the lawsuit progresses. Exxon has quite good lawyers. And it's more than willing to pay the lawyers fees to delay the implementation of a massive tax. Furthermore, Exxon potentially gets discovery into the legislative correspondence about how the law was formed, and why. Even if Exxon loses, it wins......
Furthermore, what this effectively does it take legislation away from the legislators, and put it in the hands of judges. All Exxon needs is one friendly judge to view some of the statements that Democratic politicians make in the correct light, to overturn such a law.
The best move, in this situation, is for judges to understand that further interfering in the political process is a poor idea.
There's the further fig leaf for the Legislature's intent to hide behind, that (as I understand it), the Legislation doesn't target Reedy Creek specifically, but rather all such special Districts created before Nov 5 1968, and not subsequently reaffirmed.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/4C/BillText/er/HTML
While that includes Reedy Creek, it ALSO includes 5 other Special Districts:
Bradford County Development Authority, Bradford County
Sunshine Water Control District, Broward County
Eastpoint Water and Sewer District, Franklin County
Hamilton County Development Authority, Hamilton County
Marion County Law Library, Marion County
So while Disney makes the claim they are being targetted for their Speech, and it may well be (almost certainly is) the case that's true, FL seems willing to use a particularly broad brush to accomplish its goals - A bill that doesn't name Disney (or Reedy Creek), is wholly focused on quasi-governmental agencies created by the State decades ago, affects other similarly-situated districts in other parts of the State in exactly the same way, and officially is being pursued to bring all Independent Special Districts into more modern structures.
Normally, Legislators looking at past legislation and wiping old laws off the books which did not, or no longer, serve their intended purpose in the fullness of time is something we should applaud.
My guess is that this will ultimately be declared legal - poor policy, but legal. and the People's remedy is at the ballot box.
The alternative is further empowering an unelected Judiciary to set aside facially neutral, lawfully enacted laws because a Judge "feels" that they were drafted by "bad people" with discriminatory effect. That, I think, is a cure worse than the disease.
"So while Disney makes the claim they are being targetted for their Speech, and it may well be (almost certainly is) the case that's true, FL seems willing to use a particularly broad brush to accomplish its goals"
A particularly broad brush? How many total ISDs exist in Florida, and how many are affected by this bill?
Sounds like a research project for you. At least 6 though are affected by this bill.
I actually know the answer.
Someone who says that Florida used a 'broad brush' to target Disney clearly does not.
So....you're asking a question that you already know the answer to? But not telling anyone?
I see...
Is there a well-known term for asking a question to make a rhetorical point, rather than to solicit information?
The Question is an attempt to move the goal post by redefening the relevant universe of those in like situtation to some significantly larger sample set, then point at the small number of ISDs affected and thence claim disparate treatment.
The better question is how many ISDs continue to exist in Florida in a form which predates the current FL Consitution?
A) Six
Follow Up Question: How many of those ISDs does this bill affect.
A) All of them. Equally, and without exception or exemption.
Right. And each of these 6 districts can also try to convince the legislature to reauthorize them between now and June of next year. How many of those six do you think might have trouble with that?
And this also doesn't answer another question: Why is it just the districts that were established prior to the revision of the Florida constitution that weren't reauthorized afterwards a problem? My guess, given everything else we know about how quickly and sloppily this was handled by the legislature, is that those six districts are a problem only because Disney's district is among them.
I haven't looked into the other 5 districts, but what I've read/heard about the governance structure of Reedy Creek is odd and possibly problematic.
Voting is by land owner a proportional to land owned. Disney as a corporation is the most powerful voter.
I could see the FL legislature reauthorizing the RCID with a revised governance structure that leaves Disney as a corporation with little to no direct influence.
The answer depends on how you want to define "ISD" - the State has taken the position that ISDs after 1968 are somehow different than those created before. Certainly those created after the reforms in the 80s are.
If you count CDDs, I believe the number is 1840. If you don't count them, its roughly half that. Of the totality of ISDs, only 20 or so were created between the Legislature's date in the above FL Law and the legistative revisions in the 80s - i don't know why they are special (if they are special). There were only about 40 created by FL prior to 1968 - the majority of which either no longer exist, or have been reaffirmed by one of more than 30 pieces of subsequent legislation.
Disney's power is unique in that its such a broad grant. The typical ISD might be responsible for a library, a fire department, or canal maintenance. Those sorts of ISDs were being created at rates of 60 to 100, PER YEAR, in the early 2000s. "The Village" is responsible for 166 acres, containing no Residences. Another of the ISDs being disolved by this legislation spans multiple Counties, much as the Disney/Reedy Creek ISD does.
I think a *reasonable* argument can be made that comparing ISDs based on simple count is like comparing plants in the grocery story by simple count. It tells a story, yes, put perhaps not a useful story. A watermelon and a bunch of basil are not the same thing, and the garlic is comparable to neither.
and Matthew Slyfield claims that the districts affected by this bill all pre-date the current FL State Constitution.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?submenu=3
That seems a reasonable distinction as to why they were selected for special treatment, but others of differing date, were not.
so in this case, the broad brush is "all". Each and Every special district created prior to the current State Constitution which has not subsequently been dissolved and recreated or otherwise reaffirmed by an act of law under the new Constitution.
Wow. You list those other 5 districts from what seems like the same source that I used in a comment I made recently. And yet you come to basically the opposite conclusion. That only 6 districts out of 1844 current such entities in Florida are affected by this law, that Disney's district is one, and that the other 5 are certainly not going to have any problem convincing the legislature to reauthorize them before this would take effect next year... Somehow you still think that DeSantis can claim that Disney is not the intended target and have anyone with half a brain take him seriously? This isn't a fig leaf, it is a microscopic piece of algae, for all it does to hide their intent.
You say that the efforts "officially is being pursued to bring all Independent Special Districts into more modern structures." All 6 of the ones affected, you mean? What does the law do to make the special districts more "modern"? As far as anyone has reported, it simply dissolves them unless the legislature decides to reauthorize them within the next year. What analysis and study did the legislature do before enacting this law? I think the Florida Senate sponsor and point-man on this, Sen. Mike Lee, admitted in session that he hadn't spoken to a single person in Orange or Osceola local government about it and how they would be affected. In no way can anyone claim that this is about modernizing the arraignment or anything else that actually has to do with good governing. They would be lying through their teeth to even try.
The alternative is further empowering an unelected Judiciary to set aside facially neutral, lawfully enacted laws because a Judge "feels" that they were drafted by "bad people" with discriminatory effect. That, I think, is a cure worse than the disease.
As I and others have been pointing out, there are many legal reasons why this was not "lawfully enacted" and judges will not have to search their feelings to recognize that and explain why it is the case. The Florida Constitution, and SCOTUS precedent both prohibit the Florida legislature from passing a law that negates its existing contractual obligations. At a minimum, Florida will have to see that all existing bonds and debts are paid in full before the district could be dissolved. That much seems a complete no brainer, to me. DeSantis and his toadies in the legislature certainly haven't detailed how much that will cost, to the extent that have even acknowledged it as a burden that would need to be met.
I had not read your prior comments, but at least we seem to agree as to the facts.
Its the interpretations where we differ. I am at a complete loss as to why you feel that nearly 2,000 fire districts, library improvement districts, and the like, authorized under (current Constitution) State law and created by Counties and Municipalities within their own districts are in any way relevant or comparable to the pre-current Constitutional carve-outs by the State which created Reedy Creek, Bradford County Regional Development and the like, independent of any approval or grant of authority of the County(ies) in which they reside.
Moreover, I'm at a loss as to which rule of Constitutionality or lawfulness rests upon the assumed future lawmaking of a legislative body to "repair" what they first have broken, restoring all but the individual disfavored group member to something like their pre-legislative status of the whole group.
We also disagree as to whether a piece of legislation's lawfulness can be determined by whether the Congress campaigned on the issues, depated in chambers, sought feedback from the public, and otherwise proceeded with all pomp and ceremony. I believe it is enough that, however badly drafted, pooorly considered, and bad policy it may be, it was passed in accordance with the rules of the House and Senate, then signed by the Governor within the appropriate timeframes.
Crazy, I know.
We agree this is almost certainly a naked act of political agression. We disagree as to whether the proper remedy is with the Courts.
The rule of constitutionality I am talking about is the explicit provision in the (1968 revised) Florida constitution that the state cannot pass laws that impair the rights to contract. And that necessarily includes contracts state and local governments enter into, that that would include the private parties they are contracting with, before you think that might be an out. There is SCOTUS precedent on this as well.
So the State is deemed to be stuck with the Special District's bond obligations. Easy fix - less torturous than J Robert's pretzel-logic saving of the PPACA as an exercise of the taxing power. Certainly the Counties of which Reedy Creek (and the other five districts) ar e part of would be happy with such an outcome - and are publicly demanding it.
We can't possibly believe that the District can exist forever, so long as it continues to extend promises in the form of contracts (mostly bonds) to other parties and commits via contract to do work (or pay for work) which ostensibly benefits the district.
I’m sure that the legislature could say that the district will be dissolved after its existing obligations are paid and that it couldn’t issue new bonds or enter into new contracts. Nothing I’ve read would say that it has to exist forever as you seem to have interpreted my concerns.
It should also be noted that the RCID was able to tax at much higher property tax rates than state law allows counties to impose. It pays considerably better salaries and benefits to its employees in government-like roles than the local counties are able to due to that, etc.
I’ve been pointing to people with legal expertise in local government about how unwinding this district is far from a simple task that cannot be realistically accomplished legally on the 1 year timescale that the law just passed requires. We both seem to agree at what a political theater the Florida legislature has made of this, but you don’t seem to be acknowledging the total shitshow it creates of the legal issues.
It creates a shit show. No doubt.
I'm just not convinced that its an illegal Act by the Legislature based on 1st Amendment concerns.
Ill Conceived? SURE. ABSOLUTELY. Without Doubt.
Unmanigable? Maybe. even Likely.
Full of unanticipated side effects? Yep, those too.
But its not the Court's job to cure any of those for the Legislature and the Executive.
It is absolutely a court's job to provide remedies when the legislature or executive branches go beyond their constitutional and legal powers. If it is a Free Speech issue, the remedy would be for the courts to rule against the Florida law. If the Florida law is impairing contract rights in violation of the state and federal constitutions, then it will be up to the courts to say so and invalidate their actions.
I feel that I've been quite clear about the contractual issues here, but you don't seem interested in addressing that. Instead you keep retreating to 'unelected judges' type of arguments.
If its a contracts issue, then its a contracts issue. Run of the mill for the Courts.
I was focused on the issue of the Courts providing a remedy for asserted bad motives in a facially neutral law which doesn't regulate speech or expressive conduct at all.
From my first post in this thread, I have remained focus on the contract issue and other practical legal aspects of dissolving the district as I disputed whether it was legal. The obvious bad motives on the part of DeSantis are practically indisputable, but a court would not need to get to that question given the other problems.
Your focus is going off on a tangent that avoids this.
Well those people are wrong.
Again, the state can easily pass a law allowing new bonds to be purchased backed by the state, and having the current payers of the old bonds be the payers of the new bonds.
Its not hard!
“Well those people are wrong.”
I should trust your legal analysis over theirs, why?
Sure, the legislature could pass a law assuming the debt, as you describe. But they didn’t. Will this action still be as popular among Republican voters when all Florida taxpayers have to pay back these bonds instead of just the property owners of the RCID?
Except nothing here is impairing the rights to contracts.
I agree with you except the poor policy part.
This is excellent policy.
I noted that at least one court has said, in essence, "Hey, some legislators might have voiced clearly an improper motive for passing some law. But it's unfair to ascribe that motive(s) to other legislators who also voted for passage." This seems logical and reasonable. If Congress passes a law, and 250 Reps vote for it, and 50+ Senators, it's extremely likely that many did for a variety of reasons.
It seems that this could set up a two-tiered analysis. A. How should a court deal with some legislators showing improper motives in passing an otherwise-Constitutional law? (Answer: By ignoring those bad motives.) B. How should the same court deal with the executive voicing those same bad motives? (Answer? I dunno...but it would seem reasonable to consider bad motives, as, obviously, if Trump/Biden did express them, you don't have to guess at what others believed--the president (or governor) is the only one who is signing the newly-passed proposed law, after all.)
I'm not sure how comfortable I am, having two distinctly different standards for the legislative and the executive branches. But I'm not sure I see an alternative...other than the option of ignoring improper motives by the executive as well, which some might like, but seems bad on policy grounds to me.
By the same argument, the Executive's motives don't matter if the hundreds of legislators actually drafting, "debating", and ultimately passing the Law in both the House and the Senate aren't on board.
The Executive may have improper motive in the desire to enforce a particular power, but the Congress has to grant it to him first... So do we impose the Executive's motives upon the whole body? What if the Executive changes, and the new Executive wants to use previously legislated grant of authority for "bad reasons"?
This rabbit hole can't end with the forum shopping of judges to determine if improper motive suspends operation of an otherwise lawful act - not if we wish to pretend at being a representative democracy anymore.
I don't know the answer to your question. It's an interesting area of inquiry that courts might or might not want to take up . . . should a court treat bad motives differently, depending on which branch of government expresses said motives?
I don't know. Maybe there's a law review article waiting to be written. 🙂
Perhaps the Courts should resist the temptation to seek out and ascribe bad motives at all, leaving the remedy instead to the People and the ballot box. I'll grant, its not a great remedy, but its a better remedy than the People would have if the Courts do take more of this power to themselves.
CarLitGuy, how does that answer provide a remedy to the party that was retaliated against?
Not every harm has a remedy.
Which, awful as it sounds, may be greater than the alternative "remedy" - a Judicial system operating as an unelected super-legislature and executive, whose own abuses have an even more remote remedy - electing enough legislators to impeach the judge in question and thereby prevent future, similar harms (but offering no remedy to the aggrieved).
and we know the chances of a judge being impeached in the US is near zero - particularly over the outcome of a single case where not all agree on what the proper answer is.
If Congress passes a law, and 250 Reps vote for it, and 50+ Senators, it's extremely likely that many did for a variety of reasons.
Indeed, it does seem reasonable to be reluctant to ascribe any intent to a legislature, unless it is necessary to evaluating the case before a court. But, what about when intent clearly does make a difference? How do you then decide whether the statements of a few legislators is enough to assign the same intent to the whole body? Or is it enough that some of them had impermissible motives?
Or course, the academic debate over whether legislative intent matters seems odd when conservatives practically insist on divining a single intent or understanding of the meaning of a constitutional provision from 150+ years in the past. That is, the basis of originalism, whether original intent or original public meaning, is to decide what people thought about something like the Bill of Rights or 14th Amendment when they were ratified. And this is as if you can determine a single opinion from among all of those people. Especially when you don't even have anything written about it to look at from most of the people involved, whether elected leaders or the citizenry at large. Only some of the writings of some of those people even exist now.
At least with laws passed within the last few decades, much more detailed legislative records exist, much more of what the legislators say and write publicly is available, and many of the individual legislators would still be alive to question directly, as well.
I don't believe that Town of Gilbert v. Reed and the cases cited therein are apposite to the case at hand.
Those cases had to do with legislation that itself regulated speech. This case is not about legislation that regulates speech, but legislation allegedly passed in retaliation for an exercise of free speech. As such, Kensington is more on point.
The special privileges Disney has enjoyed for 60 years have not been without criticism over the decades. Should legislation that would have clearly been permissible twenty years ago or two years ago or two months ago suddenly become unconstitutional today because of legislative "impure motive" today? Is Disney now entitled to these privileges in perpetuity because it criticized the government that gave it those privileges in the first place? If so, then every company that enjoys some special privilege it doesn't want to lose should immediately issue a statement criticizing the government.
"The special privileges Disney has enjoyed for 60 years have not been without criticism over the decades. Should legislation that would have clearly been permissible twenty years ago or two years ago or two months ago suddenly become unconstitutional today because of legislative "impure motive" today? "
If you have grounds to fire someone two years ago and two months ago but you don't do anything, and you don't do anything to the other people you have similar grounds to fire them for, but then you suddenly fire someone the day they come out as gay or start a website criticizing the company or whatever, doesn't that usually get discussed as a way to show your actual motives were discriminatory or retaliatory?
The left only started to care about free speech when it comes to responding to political controversy like the other day. They sat quiet or even encouraged governments to go after churches, corporations, and people who would not toe the line.
Are you a priest that doesn't want to marry gay people. Too bad! No freedom of religion for you!
Are you a baker who would prefer not to have your works of art used to further the homosexual agenda? Too bad! No freedom of association for you! Bake or we will bankrupt your business!
(Insert countless other examples here.)
But Florida revokes the special tax status of a multi-trillion dollar corporation that is trying to groom kids and low and behold they pretend it is some sort of free speech issue.....
This is why no one takes the left seriously anymore. And since they have made this clown world, no one is going to care when they get what is coming to them either.
What's your best evidence that this is a position that any mainstream leftist actually holds?
Disney's market cap is $209 billion. You're only off by at least an order of magnitude.
Either you're using a word of which you're ignorant of the meaning, or you do know what it means and you're lying.
Don't be coy. Tell us what the left is going to get. Tell us what it has coming to them.
This discussion is Exhibit A (and every other exhibit) why non-lawyers hate the legal profession. There is no controversy here. There is no dispute. The facts are straight forward.
The government of the state of Florida punished a private actor due to the content of that actor's speech. The lack of constitutional authority to do this is so evident, the offense against freedom of speech so blatant, the violation of the basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution so obvious that no discussion is needed.
But the lawyerly, in a partisan attempt to justify Florida's action are spending time and effort to somehow sanitize Florida. The failure is mighty. Those who argue Florida has the right to punish speech, well, they can be called many things. Patriots, True Americans, Defenders of the Constitution, Conservatives and other terms are not part of those many things.
Prof. Dorf who is referenced here apparently is muted in his criticism by his friendship with and his respect for Prof. Volokh. While we also have great respect for Prof. Volokh, one cannot help but feel partisan political beliefs partly motivate his unexpectedly mild reaction to a situation one would have expected him to vigorously condemn. If the victim had been Hobby Lobby and the perpertrating state a liberal one, one suspects his condemnation would have been huge, and while he would have written and treated those who disagree with respect, the so-called conservative faction would have been used every name in the book.
The true test of those who believe in Freedom of Speech is when they rise to defend speech with which they disagree. Those who fail this test are many and present.
The nation weeps.
Indeed. Nothing is more American, patriotic, and conservative than supporting special carve-outs for one business at the expense of other similarly-situated businesses because it has powerful lobbyists. One can almost hear the Star-Spangled Banner as he reads your powerful words.
Whether Florida had the legal right to do what it did is an open question, the question naturally at issue at a legal blog, and a wholly separate question from whether Florida offended your personal notions of patriotism or conservatism.
Indeed. Nothing is more American, patriotic, and conservative than supporting special carve-outs for one business at the expense of other similarly-situated businesses because it has powerful lobbyists. One can almost hear the Star-Spangled Banner as he reads your powerful words.
Will I find you criticizing DeSantis and his minions in the state legislature for carving out an exception to their anti-Big Tech bill for Disney last year? Or did that not show up on your radar? After all, Disney had donated around $100k to Friends of Ron DeSantis between 2019 and 2021. Seems like they got their money's worth in that instance. Maybe it was Disney saying that the spigot was being turned off that got them in trouble as much as what they said about HR 1557?
Sydney, I dislike Ron DeSantis and my Twitter thread, which Prof. Volokh linked to, makes clear that I think Florida is violating a really important norm. I'm no Republican and no conservative, and I'm not making a partisan attempt to do anything.
I do, however, care about constitutional law, and think that a lot of people are making flat and definitive pronouncements about the constitutionality of this law based on their feelings ("that can't be constitutional!") without actually reading the cases. And when you read the cases, it turns out Florida may be allowed to do this. That's relevant information. And you shouldn't hate lawyers for pointing it out.
I have no problem with legal scholars pointing out that Florida may have the Constitutional right to revoke the Disney tax district, but if they do have that right, it is tremendous affront to the notion of the 1A. The point should be that there may be a tremendous juris prudence flaw in our system because to allow government to punish speech is so diametrically opposite of the basic foundation of rights.
Instead we have people arguing the Constitutional right of Florida's action because they believe in its politics and policy. Essentially they are saying they are willing to deny freedom if it results in advancement of their political views. One would hope that major conservative writers in this area would lead the attack on Florida, but if so one seems destined to be highly disappointed.
To repeat my example, does anyone think the response to some government action against Hobby Lobby for its views on sexuality morality would be the same as what we are seeing here? No, there would be no discussion of whether or not such state action was Constitutional. In its place would be pure vitriolic hatred.
As for those comments that granting Disney its special status was bad policy, fine. Debate that all you want but recognize nobody had a problem with it until Disney spoke its opinion on public policy unrelated to its special status.
Instead we have people arguing the Constitutional right of Florida's action because they believe in its politics and policy. Essentially they are saying they are willing to deny freedom if it results in advancement of their political views. One would hope that major conservative writers in this area would lead the attack on Florida, but if so one seems destined to be highly disappointed.
Who's doing this? Prof. Volokh is to my political right, certainly, and he's arguing that my constitutional analysis might not be right and the law might be unconstitutional.
As I recall, Hobby Lobby's views on sexual morality gave rise to a major case and a lot of heated discussion here, including on the constitutional issues.
Look, at the end of the day the law means something, the law is determined by looking at cases, and the cases here may not prohibit Florida from doing something you (and I, actually) highly dislike. And that's not because the whole process of constitutional law is rotten. Rather it's because...
Wait for it....
THE PRINCIPLES IN CONSTITUTIONAL CASES HAVE TO WORK IN OTHER CASES. Because we have a common law system that depends on a web of legal precedent. So if you want to restrain DeSantis, then what do you do about laws prohibiting sleeping in the park, or laws that require you to keep a copy of an important government form? Should all of those cases have come out the other way too?
You have to remember, as Chief Justice Marshall said, that it is a Constitution we are expounding. The purpose isn't to get every case to come out the way you want it. It's to create a workable legal structure that we can all operate in, and be able to tell our clients what the rules are. Which means the cases have to fit together, even if one result disagrees with you.
If a City has the legal right to change the speed limit from 45 mph to 30 mph on a roadway, you don't get to skip the speeding ticket for continuing to drive 45mph on it, just because you criticized the city for writing speeding tickets to plug its budget holes - though that is obviously political speech of import. EVEN IF you use that road more than anyone else, and only five of your other neighbors use it at all.
And to be clear, I've lived in FL most of my life. I hate the Mouse and almost everything it represents. Particularly what it and its lobbyists and its paid politicians have done to the area of copyright law. I'm no fan of DeSantis, either.
I don't think it was good policy to carve out an area and hand over most substantially all municipal authority to a private business whose contiguous lands span multiple counties back in the late 60s. I *ALSO* don't think the current legislation is good policy to undo that mistake.
But as much as I would like to see Disney's proverbial ox gored, and DeSantis' career ended, and the mistake of the late '60s corrected, I can't conclude that the current legislation is illegal - even though I think it bad policy, and likely motivated more by animus and naked political pandering than by reasoned policy trade-offs.
Not all of us are partisan hacks. and not all of us are willing to embrace a world where unelected judges, free of most accountability to the People, are entrusted with suspending or nullifying lawful enactments of a (theoretically) accountable legislature and executive simply because they determine the law was passed for "bad reasons". That path, historically, has not ended well - for the people or their government.
If Florida had gone through the normal legislative process, that is politicians had campaigned on the issue of removing Disney's tax status, legislators had introduced legislation and held hearings to illustrate and debate whether or not continuing the special district was good public policy, the public had voiced its opinion on the issue through Blogs, Interviews, News Reports and the like, and then the Legislature had voted, well, no complaint from anyone regardless of Disney's speech.
But that didn't happen did it? No, immediately after Disney criticized the government of Florida, boom, the axe fell. And of course Florida's Governor has a history of trying to use state power to restrict speech. Notice that not a single comment has defended the issue on its merits and argued that this was not retaliation for the content. Because no one can deny that.
And does one have any doubt that 4 to 6 Supreme Court Justices will vote to uphold Florida just because of the politics of the Court?
There is reality and there is fantasy. Those who want to argue the law, argue that in our Constitutional democracy this is legal, live in the fantasy part, much the way that those who argued the government had the right to place American citizens in concentration camps during WWII because of their nationality lived in a Constitutional fantasy upheld by a compliant Supreme Court. But ultimately reality will win, because reality always wins. Although by then it may be too late.
And does one have any doubt that 4 to 6 Supreme Court Justices will vote to uphold Florida just because of the politics of the Court?
That's not how it works. Does the fact that the Court has a conservative majority make upholding it more likely? No doubt. But you still need arguments- as the state of Texas learned this week on the Remain in Mexico policy.
And good arguments- especially arguments based on precedents or the impact on other cases- can swing liberal justices. United States v. O'Brien was a SEVEN TO ONE decision in the WARREN COURT. It turns out that there's a lot of people who think it's a can of worms to start considering legislative intent.
You are just way, way off here.
Maybe I missed it, but why isn't Hialeah (the Santeria chicken sacrifice case) relevant to the analysis here?
That was a Free Exercise case, but otherwise the analysis seems similar. The court looked at the factual background, and the text of the law, and concluded it was aimed at Santeria practices, even though it never mentioned Santeria.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1992/91-948
What can I say, I took a course on Santeria as part ofmy Religious Studies case in College?
...and the answer there would seem to be that they targeted an exclusively religious process - animal sacrifice, in an area where the State has little particular authority. The state didn't proscribe all killing of animals, typical animal husbandry operations, and the slaughter of livestock for food weren't burdened. That Santeria wasn't explicitly named, and that the law would apply equally to the "First Church of Ozzy Osborne, Bat Eater" isn't material.
Here, the State is exercising its power over political subdivisions of its own creation to dissolve those entities, an area where the State's power is at its height. Its chosen to do so to all entities whose grant of authority predates the current State constitution, and have not been subsequently ratified under the current Constitution.
Those Districts may (or may not) have unique features which set them further apart from the roughly 1850 other ISDs in FL. Several people have mentioned Reedy Creek's board/governance structure. Two of the five appear to span multiple counties, which is unusual and may be unique. Unlike every modern FL ISD I am aware of, they were not created by the cities or counties in which they were found, under color of FL State law, but were rather crafted directly by State law without the ostensible consent of the governed.
So the Legislature has a reasonable, rational, plausible claim for their desire to end these entities. The date for their demise may be a legislative effort to create an urgent deadline for legislative action in which to reform those entities under more modern structures, consistent with now extant law. It also give the legislature time to reconsider or delay if implimentation proves problematic (as it surely will).
It may be a patently transparent fig leaf for an attempt to bash Disney (at the cost of billions of dollars and the destruction of 5 other districts), but its not beyond the pale of State authority.
Its the timing of this Act that raises eyebrows, and the speech of some which makes the rationale above appear patently BS.
So, while not a lawyer, I don't think Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye is relevant here.
I don't see the principled distinction, though. Hialeah stands for the proposition that a court can look at the legislature's motives in determining whether they are improperly infringing a First Amendment right. The fact that the legislature's motives were really obvious should be irrelevant.
In fact, I am struggling to see how O'Brien is still good law after Hialeah and Texas v Johnson (the flag burning case).
I suggest you read it then, rather than rely on memory -
[Quote}
JUSTICE KENNEDY delivered the opinion of the Court with respect to Parts I, II-A-1, II-A-3, II-B, III, and IV, concluding that the laws in question were enacted contrary to free exercise principles, and they are void. Pp. 531-540, 542-547.
(a) Under the Free Exercise Clause, a law that burdens religious practice need not be justified by a compelling governmental interest if it is neutral and of general applicability. Employment Div., Dept. of Human Resources of Ore. v. Smith, 494 U. S. 872. However, where such a law is not neutral or not of general application, it must undergo the most rigorous of scrutiny: It must be justified by a compelling governmental interest and must be narrowly tailored to advance that interest. Neutrality and general applicability are interrelated, and failure to satisfy one requirement is a likely indication that the other has not been satisfied. Pp.531-532.
[/Quote]
The Bill the FL Legislature just passed, and the Gov signed into law is both neutral and generally applicable. It places no burden on speech or behavior whatsoever, and affects all ISDs created prior to the current FL Constitution equally. It merely withdraws a grant of Gov't authority from all of them, without exception.
The Statute in Church of would, I believe, have passed muster if the City of Hialeah banned all animal killings whatsoever, except int he case of veterinary euthenasia for [human reasons]. They didn't do that - rather they wrote a narrow bill that navigated around other activities involving the killing of animals and focused solely on the expressive act of animal sacrifice.
What speech does the FL bill ban? What expressive activity does it prohibit? How does it treat Reedy Creek any different than the five other districts it affects? Did it leave anybody out???
A: None. None. It doesn't. It didn't.
You might find better support with an alternative argument from one of the Planned Parenthood funding cases, where PP claimed (rightly) that the State (pick one) was withholding a grant of funding to them due solely to PP's speech - except those don't cut in your favor, as best I can recall.
and I really miss the edit feature. Starting to remember why I stopped commenting. I can't drop thoughts down, then go back a few minutes later and correct them into more proper, more coherent, English. With appropriate punctuation and stuff.
@CarlIt-
I still don't buy it.
The Hialeah law banned animal slaughter generally, and then carved out a large number of exceptions that basically left Santeria and, potentially, OzzFest.
The Florida law targeted ISDs, but basically exempted 99% of them. You could argue the pre- vs post-constitution thing, but I think everybody agrees that is pretextual.
The big difference I can see in the situations is that Hialeah was prospective, while Disney was retaliatory, but I am having a hard time seeing how that is a distinction with a difference.
But Hialeah and O'Brien and Texas and the like all targeted an expressive activity.
They are as principled as any act of Line drawing. To borrow from another corner of 1a law, "I'll know it when I see it". and pragmatically, the Courts have proven poor defenders of the people's rights in times of war.
This doesn't prohibit or restrict speech, it doesn't prohibit or restrict expressive activity. Engaging in a 1a Analysis beyond that is a waste of time. It may well be retaliation for one of those things, but that's run of the mill politics - same as we see every time the party in power gerrymanders districts to reduce the power of the other Party, or engages in thousands of other decisions about awarding contracts, deciding who to include or exclude in a tax bill, etc.
With few exceptions, "Bad men did a lawful thing" isn't reason for the courts to invalidate a law, even if the thing they did was immediately after one of the affected parties criticised those "bad men". Disney doesn't seem to be an aggreived ex-employee belonging to a protected class.
@CarLit-
"But Hialeah and O'Brien and Texas and the like all targeted an expressive activity."
How can you claim that Disney was not engaged in expressive activity?
BTW - this kind of stuff was why I loved law school; it was so much more intellectually interesting than college was.
@Ridgeway
I'm uncertain if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you honestly don't recognize that O'brien, Church of, and Texas were all laws that directly regulated speech/expressive conduct.
This bill regulates no speech or conduct whatsoever.
Apples and Oranges.
@CarLitGuy
I understand that you are distinguishing retrospective retaliation from prospective regulation, but in the First Amendment context, I do not know that it is a meaningful distinction.
FWIW, people seem to be taking up my argument in the more recent Disney thread.
Yes, I've seen it there, and mostly moved to that set of comments.
According to people far more skilled than i, the distinction of retrospective retaliation from prospective regulation makes all the difference.
and FWIW, as a matter of policy, I think it a sensible distinction to make.
Because they're children who want simple answers to complex legal questions, and won't accept that their "It's obvious" arguments are not based on an understanding of the law?
Jack Phillips never baked the cake, and his business was not bankrupted. Anti-LGBT bigots are keen on the crowdfunding grift.
I’m not sure the expressive conduct/speech line makes much sense. Not a lawyer, but just one hypothetical: if there were an ongoing trend to burn flags at noon every day, I’d think strict scrutiny should apply to a government that then passed a law banning outside fires at noon. It would seem entirely illogical for that to be lower scrutiny than if the trend were trucks honking their horns instead.
But the reason it would get strict scrutiny is that there's no specific government interest in burning outside fires at noon as opposed to some other time.
Contrast that to the O'Brien situation, where you had a law prohibiting destruction of draft cards. Of course it was actually targeting protesters who burned their draft cards. But there is a reason the government would want you to keep your draft card as proof of registration. And SCOTUS said in that situation, legislative purpose didn't matter.
It seems to me that O'Brien ought to stay standing, and ought to also extend to cases where opponents of a law or order want to cast doubt on the stated motives of an executive rather than a legislature.
To illustrate why, I will cite one of the Conspiracy's own arguments from a few years ago, over Trump's ban on air travel from six countries, five of which were Muslim, to the US. Trump's stated (and, I believe, genuine) reason for the ban was that those countries did not vet travelers effectively and thus would have enabled terrorists to come in. Eugene (I think it was he) wanted the court to find that Trump's real motivation was nothing but animus against Muslims, and therefore his order should be overturned.
To me, this is a perfect illustration -- of the fact that neither side of our "great feud" is very good at identifying the motives of the other, because each side's motivations rest on its own, sincere, believed set of facts which the other side does not accept. This of course will always be true as long as free speech is sufficiently allowed for rival sets of news media and/or social media to continue to exist.