The Volokh Conspiracy
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My Washington Post Article on Gun Rights and Property Rights
It explains why laws requiring private property owners to allow guns on their land are an affront to property rights, and violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment.

Earlier today, the Washington Post published my article on "'Gun-at-Work Laws' Violate the Property Rights of Business Owners." Here is an excerpt:
Iowa is the latest state to consider prohibiting private property owners from banning guns on land they own. Sometimes called "parking-lot laws" or "gun-at-work laws," many such statutes tell property owners they can't prevent people from storing their guns in a locked car while they work their shift (or attend church or seek help at a nonprofit counseling center). In some cases, the laws allow them to bring the guns inside. Iowa would become the 25th state with such a law….
These laws do not defend constitutional rights. I support strong Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms, but the amendment constrains only the government. It does not require private individuals to own guns or allow them on their land — just as the First Amendment does not require private owners to allow speech they disapprove of on their property. To mandate that Americans accept guns on their property represents an unacceptable infringement of their property rights, and also violates the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution….
Scholars and courts have long recognized that the right to exclude people and objects of which they disapprove is a central element of property owners' rights. Indeed, the Supreme Court recently reaffirmed, in a decision that forbade California from giving union organizers a "right to take access" to an agricultural employer's property — three hours a day, 120 days a year — that "[t]he right to exclude is "one of the most treasured" rights of property ownership." True originalist constitutionalism would embrace a strong view of Second Amendment rights while also defending the rights of business owners to keep guns off their property, if they so choose….
In addition to undermining property rights, many mandatory gun-access laws may also violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. That argument leans on last year's 6-3 ruling in Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid — the one that concluded California could not let union organizers have temporary access to agricultural businesses…
in Cedar Point, the court held that "a physical appropriation is a taking whether it is permanent or temporary." As Duke Law School professor Joseph Blocher has pointed out, in the case of gun-at-work laws — like union-organizer regulation — the government requires property owners to accept occupation of their land by people (armed gun owners) the owners would prefer to keep out…
Sadly, the imposition of mandatory gun-access laws on property owners is part of a more general recent turn against private property rights by many conservatives. Consider, for instance, the widespread right-wing support for the use of eminent domain to build President Donald Trump's border wall, advocacy of laws forcing social media firms to host speech they object to, and legislation barring private owners from imposing coronavirus vaccination requirements as a condition of entry on their land….
The left, of course, has its own long-standing dubious anti-property tendencies. Among other things, many support "NIMBY" zoning restrictions and harmful uses of eminent domain. But that in no way excuses the growing bad behavior of the right.
The article is in part adapted from an earlier, longer essay I wrote on this issue for the Duke University Center for Firearms Law.
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"Scholars and courts have long recognized that the right to exclude people and objects of which they disapprove is a central element of property owners' rights."
Like guns, certain races, certain sexes, certain religions, etc.?
That is correct. All anti-discrimination laws violate the right to Freedom of Association inherent in the Ninth Amendment and are unconstitutional. It does not matter what the Supreme Court says. They cannot read the plain English of the constitution. If these woke lawyers do not like that, amend the constitution.
The Washington Post is a hate speech propaganda outlet for Jeff Bezos. It has the credibility of the David Duke website. He hates Jews and Blacks. Duke is not a journalist with professional standards. He is head of the KKK. The Washington Post hates America most and has journalistic standards which it always violates.
Somin should be as ashamed of a publication in the Washingon Post as one might be of one in the David Duke website.
I agree. But as long as that is the ruling of the land, then guns are also allowed. Sorry Ilya.
That was my thought. Is Ilya ready to restore the traditional liberties of property owners, or is he only concerned about them to the detriment of the rights of gun owners? Are we talking principle here, or virtue signaling to the left disguised as principle?
I don't believe the Cedar Point cite is on point. In Cedar Point, the property owner objected to the presence of the union organizers, not to the contents of their pockets. He didn't want them on the property packing or not, clothed or not, just didn't want them there, period. Here we're talking about people the property owner is only too happy to have on their property, but only so long as they do not exercise a right the property owner would not normally be aware of their having exercised, and which has no effect on the property owner.
The parking lot laws basically treat the interior of a person's car (And possibly their pockets.) as a kind of bubble of 'extraterritoriality' within the property owner's domain, which the property owner is regarded as having consented to in allowing the person onto their property.
This does not strike me as an unreasonable compromise between a basic civil liberty, the RKBA, and an already compromised civil liberty, property ownership. Were property rights rigorously respected in this country, I might agree that the conflict was serious.
Perhaps we could arrive at compromise: You can require people to not have guns in their cars or on their person if you provide secure storage, so that this edict does not require them to also forego exercise of the right OFF your property while traveling to and from it?
I wonder what other civil liberties could be so compromised? Could a store owner put a sign on the door saying, "No praying under your breath."? And enforce it?
There was another mass shooting at a shooting range in GA…it must have been a gun free zone. 😉
To be clear, are you talking about the April 8 armed robbery of a Grantville gun store that left the two owners and their grandson dead? If so, that was a tragic incident but it does not meet even the FBI's liberalized definition of a "mass shooting".
Regardless, the fact that horrific crimes sometimes occur even when the victims are armed does not change the statistical fact that those crimes occur a whole lot more often when victims are forbidden from protecting themselves.
Apparently GA law require guns to be unloaded when taken into a gun store which makes everyone in a GA gun store a sitting fucking duck!!! You need to organize a test case and get this law deemed unconstitutional ASAP!!!!!!! Gun stores are LOADED GUN FREE ZONES which is like a cock without balls—-floppy and weak!!!!
Georgia Law on “Case” and “Unloaded”
Concerning the carrying of a firearm, Georgia code O.C.G.A. 16-11-126 (2010) reads as follows.
(c) Any person who is not prohibited by law from possessing a handgun or long gun may have or carry any handgun provided that it is enclosed in a case and unloaded.
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.
First, I can't actually find the law you're alleging about loaded weapons not being allowed in a gun store. That's a matter of common courtesy and safety but not, so far as I can find, a legal restriction. But even if such a law exists, it would not generally apply to the store owner.
Second, the specific subparagraph of the law you cite says you may carry legally a handgun outside the home (and some other places) without a permit as long as it is cased and unloaded (which, yes, means basically worthless for self defense). But GA allows longguns to be carried loaded as long as they are "carried in an open and fully exposed manner". (same law subpara b) Georgia also has a robust and effective means of getting the necessary permit to carry a loaded handgun. (subpara d)
Gun cases are made of extremely hard resins, and when properly weighted, say by an unloaded gun, make effective war clubs.
This is from the first page of the search for “loaded guns in gun stores”:
One of the more sphincter-clenching moments for an employee of any gun shop is when a customer unexpectedly reaches for their concealed firearm to “show us” something or ask us a question.
Recently a customer attempted to pull his firearm from its holster to show me his new acquisition and to ask if I thought he got a good deal. As he was attempting to draw the firearm from the holster, I had to give him two sharp verbal warnings to STOP (read: I yelled at him).
Once he realized I was mid-draw with my firearm and I was deadly serious, he allowed me to walk him through the proper steps.
Exactly how long do you think it takes to load a gun?
So all guns outside the home should be unloaded?? Fuck off you Nazi piece of shit!!!
Ah, I see my mistake. You are a parody account. In fairness, though, you're not very good at it. Your comments weren't funny or thought-provoking. You're just coming across as incoherent.
And you are an account of a moron. So gun store owners can require gun owners to unload weapons and because you are a moron you believe that is not an infringement of the RKBA. The fact you are a moron makes coming up with winning arguments easy!! 😉
A lot longer than to fire one that is already loaded.
"the statistical fact that those crimes occur a whole lot more often when victims are forbidden from protecting themselves"
That fact is not actually a "fact"
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/gun-free-zones.html
Seems like there's very little quality research on the topic and to the extent there is, there's not a consistent conclusion (i.e., one study says 10% of mass shootings are in gun-free zones, another says 98%). So your "facts" are basically just cherry-picking the rare study that matches your priors.
Have you actually read the Everytown study that came to the 10% conclusion? It is not "cherry-picking" to look at a study's methodology and call it statistical malpractice. Nor is it "cherry-picking" to look at the methodology and conclude that it is insufficient for the evaluation at hand. The Everytown study, for example, explicitly included domestic violence. They even calculated that 61-70% of mass shootings (using their definition) occurred in the home. While tragic and possibly relevant to other gun policies, those shootings are simply not relevant to an analysis of gun-free-zone laws.
Mind you, the Rand meta-study is correct that there are relatively few good studies out there. But if you read those studies for yourself - and make your decisions about their methodology before looking at their conclusions - it's not really that hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Or maybe it's outcome-oriented bias? Because I've heard the exact same thing but on the other side.
Besides, it's not a crime prevention thing with the pro-gun folks anyhow, it's a rights/government tyranny thing they argue these days. Helps them avoid stuff like registration as well!
I'm in the rights camp, BTW, I'm just not quite as paranoid about it as many here insist on.
It doesn't really mean much to say you're "in the rights camp", when even the worst gun grabbers typically don't deny there's a right, just define it so narrowly that it's of no use to anyone.
Sometimes it's outcome-oriented bias. More often (in my experience), it's imprecision in the framing of the hypothesis you're trying to test. As the saying goes, we'll never agree on the answer if we can't first agree on the question.
We’ve already established that you believe it’s fine to require all guns be kept unloaded…because they can simply be loaded…expect the fact they can’t be loaded means you can’t load them. You are a fucking imbecile, btw.
Let us not ignore how prosecutors are. Should an employee in a gun store somehow survive thr initial burst of bullets from an attacker amd manage to get his gun loaded and take him out, he still loaded his gun ina gun store, and may be prosecuted.
Krayt, it appears that your reply assumes that Sebastian was correct in the initial comment that it's illegal to have a loaded gun in a gun store. That claim was never substantiated and I am now assuming it to be untrue. If there is a federal or Georgia law that says so, I have been unable to find it and the troll never even bothered to attempt a coherent reply.
Yes, prosecutors can and sometimes do twist laws to ridiculous ends. But there's no law in this case to start the twisting from.
I say "there's not good data" to which you respond "that 10% study is bad!". So... we agree? I'm not arguing for the 10% number; I'm saying the value isn't known so what you call a "fact" is actually just conjecture.
How about banning cell phones? I'd love to go to a restaurant with the A-hole at the next table yelling into their phone.
"Without" Really need an edit button.
Other than that the business would lose customers, I can't think of a legal reason it couldn't be done.
The guy obviously hasn’t seen any articles about comedy clubs doing just that. The super power of most of these 2A absolutists is that they are morons and so they simply reject facts that undermine their arguments.
Correct. They are not allowed per the FCC from jamming cell phones, but they can ban them.
That's because "jamming" requires a transmission, specifically to interfere with another transmission, and a major part of the FCC's job is preventing interference with transmissions. OTOH, nothing stops you from making your building a Faraday cage that blocks all cell signals.
Might get into trouble the first time somebody needs to call 911 in an emergency, and it doesn't go through, though.
Google the term HackRF One Portapack Mayhem. Such a useful little gadget.
Indeed. I've always enjoyed reading stories about people going to prison for jamming cellphone signals.
It's not like you could be interfering with an emergency call or anything.
Self-centered idiots.
This is still the case for non-commercial property. A homeowner can expel anyone from their property as a trespasser and there is no questioning of the motives.
Can you imagine the insurance hikes you would get if you were in an area with high gun ownership. I would not open a bar in this situation.
High rates of gun possession drastically lower all crime rates. People shooting, injuring and killing criminals should receive absolute legal immunity.
You mean legal gun ownership, I presume?
Yes. I support background checks, excluding people with mental problems, excluding people involved in physical domestic disputes, children, felons, drug users, addicts of other kinds. Those measures have proven effective at reducing gun violence.
I haven't looked up the numbers but I doubt this. If that were true, Houston would be a far safer city than Boston when in fact the opposite is true.
Pro-gun Texas prohibits customers from taking guns into bars. There is room for common sense adjustments when political principles collide.
Sure, and as I wrote above, if you provide secure storage, so that people didn't have to refrain from having a gun outside your property to avoid having it inside your property, we might arrive at a meeting of minds.
The problem is that people have to travel to arrive at the property where the arms are prohibited, so this sort of strict enforcement prohibits them from carrying the arms outside the property in question, too.
Which is the point of the prohibition, for those who weren't paying attention. The idea is that you can create this patchwork of places where people can and can't have guns, so as to make concealed carry impractical even if it is nominally legal.
Do you ever have dry panties or do you constantly pee them??
I've had prostrate surgery, you figure it out.
???? moon river ????
I wintered last year in Tucson, Arizona has very high gun ownership rates and constitutional carry as well, so you have no idea who might be carrying, but my renters insurance was pretty reasonable.
Can you imagine the insurance rates of the property owner who has liability for the safety of all the disarmed invitees on his property?
Can you imagine the insurance hikes you would get if you were in an area with high gun ownership.
Your imagination is the only place where that happens, so I guess that's appropriate phrasing.
These gun laws are anti-discrimination laws and no more a "taking" than any other civil rights law.
No less, either, but I wonder why this particular bigotry triumphs over an explicit civil right, when other bigotries fall to mere statutes.
Anti-discrimination laws tend to focus on public accomodation. It's not ok to serve white people but not black people... once you've already decided to open your property up to the public.
Employee parking lots aren't generally open to the public.
Eh.
With the exception of religion, civil rights laws are based on characteristics of people that they are born with rather than choose to do later in life. So it's much more reasonable to compare a "no gun" rule with a "no car" rule or a "no cell phones" rule than a "no blacks" or "no women" rule.
"With the exception of religion, civil rights laws are based on characteristics of people that they are born with rather than choose to do later in life. So it's much more reasonable to compare a "no gun" rule with a "no car" rule or a "no cell phones" rule than a "no blacks" or "no women" rule."
It's hard to keep up. Can't I decide whether I'm a woman later in life?
There are rather more exceptions than just religion. Veteran status is a protected class - explicitly something one chooses to do in life. Depending on the state, political affiliation is a protected class - another decision made after you are born. Research on whether sexual orientation is innate or chosen remains mixed but some jurisdictions protect sexual behavior which is, again, entirely a choice. I've even seen examples of prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of hairstyle.
Okay, so maybe it's interesting to compare rules protecting gun owners with those that protect political affiliation or veterans (which are less common). They're definitely not the same as "all other civil rights laws" which was the original claim.
I cannot wait for the laws that make it legal to bring a horse into a grocery store or church. No more anti-horse discrimination, I say.
Is the horse your comfort anipal? Companies run scared from that.
Hmmmm...maybe it's issue #22187 pushed by lawyers to give themselves something to sue over.
"My Washington Post Article on Why Gun Rights and Property Rights"
Why not?
So in my area a huge employer prohibits employees from bringing guns on to their property which includes the only available parking in the area. The company's regulation, in effect, requires those who legally own and carry firearms to be unarmed on what can be a lengthy commute to/from work (where it is not unreasonable to also make intermediate stops) with almost no alternative available.
And, in the past, some criminals know this so will target these employees knowing that most likely they aren't carrying.
How do you reconcile this these two competing interests?
Assumption of risk - the business owner would essentially be an insurer for those who are injured or die as a result of his no gun policy.
I actually faced this problem in PHX as the only attorney in our company west of the Mississippi. Boston based attorneys had no clue that a large percentage of their employees came to work every day with a gun in their vehicle. I told the employees that the company was brain dead in terms of guns, but my hands were tied. I told them that I didn’t want to see their guns, nor hear about them, but I would defend them if they were caught with a gun at the plant. And, yes, I would love to go shooting with them - but not directly from work. I needed plausible deniability.
When they originally built our plant in the late 1960s, it was a nice neighborhood. But over the next 30 years, it had slid quite a bit, and there were now crime problems in the neighborhood. It was so bad that security would record people ducking under the USPS Dropbox in the parking lot, late at night, not realizing that it was cleaned out daily at 4 pm. USPS was arresting someone there every couple weeks.
My point was that I was unwilling to risk the company getting sued because they denied their employees the right to be armed in what had become a questionable part of town. I wasn’t worried about our employees misusing their firearms - they were mostly very careful engineers.
You'd have to prove that an employee bringing a gun to work wasn't liable to shoot another, innocent employee in a heated discussion or on accident, first. I haven't seen any evidence that "good guys with a gun" actually prevent workplace deaths. Otherwise, all you add is another guy shooting bullets that could result in further liability.
Praying to Jesus prevents unintended consequences when shooting a gun.
The property owner can ban guns on their property. Check.
The property owner cannot randomly search cars on their property, however.
... grumble,
The balancing act is therefore people carry to the workplace or parking lot or wherever and leave their guns in their cars in a lockbox. So long as the property owner doesn't know they are there, no harm to anyone.
Should the gun owner foolishly show off their gun, or should they need to use it, the property owner can then trespass them and ask they leave (and if an employee can punish or fire an employee for violating a workplace rule).
This is the origin of the phrase 'concealed is concealed.'
If a property owner doesn't like this idea (guns in cars) they can a) pay for a secure perimeter where cars and people are searched and access is controlled, or they can offer some other solution (like a place to check your firearm).
If the concealed carrier/employee doesn't like this idea, they can choose to work elsewhere that has different rules.
I look forward to Ilya's column on how forcing employers to set aside private rooms for lactating mother's is a taking that violates their private property rights.
The truth is employers are subject to all kinds of regulations that infringe on their property rights. If they wanted to search women's purses because they decided they don't want any birth control drugs or devices on their property, or if they decided employees shouldn't be able to possess books that discuss certain political topics or homosexual themes, is the legislature forbidden to interfere?
A car is also private property, and merely saying if the owner allows cars on to his property, the employee, or anyone else he gives permission to to drive on his property retains full property and privacy rights to their own property, their vehicle.
It also brings up an interesting question, if States allow private corporations to operate toll roads, can they ban people with guns, or birth control, from using those roads?
Does the state give full property rights to the toll collection corporation, or just limited rights to collect the tolls, process them, take a cut, and pass it on to the state?
Could be either way. Long term lease with full property rights has been done in some places, but of course there is still price regulation.
Especially now that lactation is not restricted by biology, and those who lactate should do so in the common rooms.
Let's make it really political; can the employer restrict cars on the property to just fully electric cars?
That's not a bad idea if they have a really small parking lot and need to find a way to drastically restrict usage.
I consulted two zoning ordinances near me. One town does not have any limitation that I could find on parking lot use restrictions. A larger city states "Reasonable precautions shall be taken by the owner or operator of particular [parking] facilities to assure the availability of required facilities for the employees or other persons whom the facilities are designed to serve." That second ordinance would arguably be violated by a rule requiring cars that most customers do not have.
In the example of private corporations operating toll roads, the property itself remains public. The corporation therefore becomes an agent of the state and is subject to the same constitutional limitations as the state itself.
Now, if the corporation bought 100% of the land and built the road itself, you might have a different argument. But private toll roads haven't been a thing for almost two centuries.
if States allow private corporations to operate toll roads, can they ban people with guns, or birth control, from using those roads?
I'd be interested in knowing whether any state that allows private corporations to operate toll roads delegates to them the state's authority to determine who belongs on the roads. I'd be surprised if any did.
Yes, and I'd be even more surprised if any such corporation wanted such a delegation of authority. All it would do is open them up to lawsuits if they exercised it. Much better for them to say, "No, we can't be liable because we don't have authority to control usage."
The car owner retains their property rights with respect to the car but not with respect to any private property the car is parked on. Saying "You can park your car here" is the not the same as saying "you can store your prohibited items on my property." Another way to look at it: just because you have property right claims to your luggage doesn't mean the contents of the luggage aren't subject to their own regulation.
There's a lot of things we aren't allowed to bring to our jobs, like our dogs, our consenting sex slaves, our cell phones in some instances, etc.
I agree. What about zoning laws that require a certain amount of square footage for fire exits, restrooms, parking spaces, etc?
The government often requires businesses to permit customers to bring cars onto the property, with all the inconvenience and expense and legal risk that brings. Why does the so-called "privilege" of driving get greater legal protection than the enumerated right of bearing arms?
I remember seeing a case, I think out of Maine, where state law did not permit visitors to be excluded from property open to the public without good cause. This is a stronger protection than provided by the usual nondiscrimination laws.
What does this have to do with bringing deadly weapons onto someone else's private property? We have two rights at play here, one is personal property rights and the other is the right to bear arms. Why does someone who occasionally visits the property get more rights than the person who owns it? You're basically saying the property owner cannot limit what guests can do on their own property?
We've entered conservative bizzaro world.
How far do these property rights extend? Can a property owner ban you from having a bible (or other religious text or accoutrement like a yarmulke) in your car while parked on their property?
I would argue the parking lot laws are not a taking as the property owner suffers no loss of use of their property if my car has a gun in or not. The same car still takes up the same amount space for the same amount of time.
The inside of person's car is their domain, police can't search it without probable cause, and property owners don't gain any rights to the car by virtue of it being on their property either. That people might have a gun (or a Quran, or a Planned Parenthood pamphlet) locked in their car is just something you have to accept when you allow them to park their cars on your property.
The champion of open borders talks about the sanctity of the right to exclude.
The learned professor makes no attempt to explain how these laws differ from other public accommodations law that forbid businesses from excluding persons based on race, religion, etc. Surely requiring a business to allow a blind man's guide dog to enter is more of a burden upon his property rights than a gun he doesn't even know is there, not to mention other requirements like wheelchair ramps and reserved handicapped parking spots which have actual monetary costs.
This is really no different than the Takings argument forwarded by the defendant and rejected by the Supreme Court in Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States (1964).
And, while it is true that "the First Amendment does not require private owners to allow speech they disapprove of on their property", in Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980), the Supreme Court held that the state could require a shopping center to do precisely that. Notably, the Court explicitly rejected the Takings claim in that case as well.
Cursed lack of edit function! Correction: the motel was not the defendant.
Private property vs. public property: what is the difference? Can anyone help FD Wolf?
Brilliant observation. Go scale the White House fence and explain to whomever you encounter the distinction between private and public property and the right to exclude, assuming he doesn't shoot you in the head, of course.
If property owners have a "right" to exclude guns, property owners have the same "right" to exclude wheelchairs and bras.
No double standards.
Or exclude crucifixes...or turbans....or prayer rugs....or yarmulkes...
Guns are not an immutable characteristic. (Faith is considered so).
Maybe bras could work; the others no.
An item worn or carried or otherwise brought along with you is no more immutable than the gun the property owner has the "right" to ban.
No double standards. One standard or the other, not both.
Certain items worn or carried (or both if you're a Sikh) are mandated by a person's faith. Sikhs even have an exemption to wear turbans in US military uniform. However, in certain forms of private property, you can exclude anyone for any reason, including their religious beliefs. But if you want a permit to do business, that'll be a problem.
It’s either a constitutionally protected property right like Somin says, in which case you may offer a constitutional amendment to make exceptions for public accommodations, or it isn’t and states can tell you you must allow items like turbans and guns.
No double standards.
You're just being stubborn.
Carrying a gun is not the same thing as wearing a turban.
No, that's true, you can actually see that somebody is wearing a turban, you don't have to pat them down to find out.
Rights don’t care about someone’s opinion of what is or isn’t "the same".
"I'm a Mandalorian, weapons are part of my religion"
And I am an Ammosexual...don't judge...
There is no written demand that mohammedan females wear a veil....Not in their koran, or anything else.
So, lets not allow it: Customers, supervisors, etc should be able to see the face of who they are speaking to
Yeah, lets tell Muslims what they believe!
Whoosh!
Have you not been paying attention? You can't attack Islam for burkas and veils as anti-female because it is not part of the religion.
Unless you need it to be for some other dig.
Strange that Bernie Sander's Vermont has some of the most "Liberal" Gun Laws (or lack of same) in the US, no permit required to carry, full Automatics (AKA "Real" Assault Weapons) welcome as long as the National Firearms Act rules are complied with.
It's not that strange. Until fairly recently, we didn't have this dumb tribal notion of politics where all of your beliefs had to align fully to one team or the other. So many states have odd mixes of liberal and conservative policies reflecting that history did not always reflect the exact state of political polarization present in the US today.
Michigan congressmen and senators regularly fought tooth and nail against CAFE standards and other regulation that hurt the auto industry, even though more time than not they were Democrats.
Vitamin stores are 99% snake oil, acording to releated large studies, but deliberately unregulated, lead by a Democratic senator 20 years ago (whose state, purely coincidentally, was a large producer of them.)
Plenty of liberals own guns. But, you know, if we're willing to respect someone's personal pronouns, we're probably willing to respect their desire that we don't bring an uzi into their house, or daycare business, etc.
I’m assuming these laws always involve commercial businesses and not a private residence. The article fails to make that distinction. It’s an important distinction because there are thousands and thousands of laws regulating commercial activities and the properties on which those activities take place. If Professor Somin has a problem with the general idea of commercial regulations, he should write about that instead of picking out one of a million types of government laws affecting a commercial business owner’s property just because it has high click-bait potential. He could just as easily write that a law forcing a business to have a certain number of handicapped parking spaces is a government taking too.
Conflict in the BoR? Happens all the time.
Does an employer have a right to demand employees practice (not believe in, perhaps) certain religious practices on their property?
What if those practices include handling pork products? Human sacrifice? Something in between?
There have been a few cases where the employees' religious practices prohibited them from carrying out certain aspects of their work.
Here's one: Muslim truckers who refused to deliver alcohol awarded $240,000
https://www.foxnews.com/us/muslim-truckers-who-refused-to-deliver-alcohol-awarded-240000
I think the basic premise is, employers have to make "reasonable accommodations" for employees' religious practices.
Or course, people can disagree on what "reasonable accommodations" are.
By the logic of Prof Somin's absolute-private-property-rights argument, private property owners could strip-search any employee or customer who walks onto their property for any reason or none. Private property owners could, arguably, sexually assault or even murder any visitors so long as they disclosed that as a condition of entering the property.
While there is an appealing internal consistency to such an absolutist position, it generates untenable results. Taken to the logical extreme, it generates results that are indistinguishable from the evils of absolute monarchies and the worst dictatorships. The balance society has set instead is that the rights of property owners can be constrained. You can't murder or enslave your customers or employees even if they consent to it. You (usually) can't arbitrarily strip search them or deprive them of other basic human rights as a mere condition of commercial transaction.
Once you accept that premise, now we're just negotiating on how to balance the landowner's private-property right against other human rights - including the right to practical self-defense.
Indeed. Somin has taken a fairly major imposition on private property...people who were allowed to be there for a sizable portion of the time, using the property against the employers wishes....
To a very minor imposition. A firearm in a locked car that was allowed on the property anyway, and doesn't impede any usage of the property.
The logical place to look at this is the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). That law mandates people with disabilities be allowed easy access to public properties, as well as mandating expensive renovations to the property to allow such access. Could a person simply say "We don't allow wheelchairs on this property, so it need not have a wheelchair ramp." And if the government mandated it, it would be a taking? If so, the government is about to get a very large bill.
Just allow guns but only unloaded guns!! Wheeeeeeeee—-you are dumb!!!
??
An odd response to my post. Which never mentioned unloaded guns.
If the business posted a sign, "Hey! If you choose to enter, you agree we may strip search you at any time.", sure, why not?
You go in and sit down and order a drink. The small band plays some 80s hit because that's the clientele.
"Sir, please come with me. We are going to strip search you."
"What? Why!"
"None of your business. Go over to that woman in the middle of the room; she will handle it."
"But everyone can see! Won't that be done in private?"
"No. Sorry, time is of the essence."
You go to the middle of the room. The band changes its tune to something from the 80s...the 1880s in Paris.
The woman reaches for your belt...
Wait a minute. That club would be jammed!
Isn't this a textbook example of the sort of thing eminent domain is designed for, i.e. the government building a physical structure that couldn't be built anywhere else? I think there are plenty of reasons why building a border wall isn't a good idea, but I'm not sure I see how using eminent domain to build it is a violation of property right—unless you think that all use of eminent domain is a property rights violation (in which case you part ways with the framers of the constitution).
"It does not require private individuals to own guns or allow them on their land — just as the First Amendment does not require private owners to allow speech they disapprove of on their property.".......
"Scholars and courts have long recognized that the right to exclude people and objects of which they disapprove is a central element of property owners' rights.
++++++++++++++
So, can employers decree that employees can not have a Bible in their car if parked in the employer's parking lot? It seems under Somin's reasoning, they could do so.
Probably not since that would fall under reasonable accommodation for religious belief. I mean, an employee cannot (in most but not all circumstances I'd imagine (IANAL)) ban religous headware like turbans.
I would be interesting to see if a Christian church could ban someone parking a car with satanic religious symbology on it or a satanic bible on the dashboard in plain sight.
As an aside, it's amusing that a lot of the people upset about the right of property owners to prohibit deadly weapons on their property rush straight to "but think about the Christians!" Like there's some special relationship between the two...
So why is it acceptable that property owners be required to allow reasonable accommodation for first amendment rights, but accommodating second amendment rights becomes unreasonable?
Because he's trying to stay in good graces with the left, and they absolutely hate private gun ownership. While they saw minority religions as a useful wedge to attack majority culture.
The concealed carry of a firearm is much more a privacy issue than abortion every was. People are entitled by the constitution to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects. Persons. It's no one's business, save for a warrant, as to what you're carrying. I won't give up this right to the government, no less a business.
Can a muslim business declare that one can't have pork or alcohol in their car when its in their parking lot?
Can a muslim business bar entry to those with pig heart valve transplants?
How about pigskin wallets and shoes and belts and purses?
Good lord, it's not kryptonite.
I'm just saying, there was a movement a couple of years ago of NY muslim cabbies refusing to carry passengers who were carrying alcohol. So how would one react if they did this?
p.s. I'm not muslim
Absent a law against it, they're allowed to not let people in their car as they see fit. Free country and all.
Absent a law against it, they're allowed to not let people in their car as they see fit.
Begging the question.
Of course it's not. But if someone sincerely believed that it was, what's your answer to the hypothetical? Are discriminations based on the property owner's sincere (but in our mind mistaken) beliefs legal? Are property rights absolute?
If not, then we're just arguing about where to draw the line.
Under Smith, banning something for your faith gains you no additional legality versus banning it because you have a notion.
Which means it depends on state law.
And also the hypotheticals are very silly.
I do not believe Publius was asking a question of state law. I think Publius asked a normative question. What should the law be.
And, yes, the hypotheticals are silly. That's part of what makes them useful. They make it easier to ignore the details and focus on underlying principles.
When a package of pepperoni can be turned into a deadly weapon, sure. Until then, a loaded semi-automatic pistol and a pizza topping are not even in the same universe.
In the mind of a fervent believer, the pepperoni can be far more dangerous since it represents a threat to the believer's immortal soul. A pistol only threatens the believer's life.
This is not currently a popular belief (that threats to one's soul are far more important than mere threats to mortality) but that belief used to be near-universal - and it's still a sincerely held belief by some.
My sense is that when people imagine an employee wanting to bring a gun to work/the parking lot at work, they generally envision someone who is facing no particular threat, i.e. someone who is at the same background risk of a mugging or whatever as the rest of us. And if you are someone who is willing to face that risk unarmed, it probably seems like a small enough thing to ask everyone else who is similarly situated to bear the same risk.
But I don't think that is the correct analysis. There are a few people unfortunate enough to face a personal risk substantially above the background risk. I think any analysis ought to consider those people. Failing to do so is like ignoring the plight of people in wheelchairs, just because people in wheelchairs are uncommon.
Absaroka, you know how immune compromised people just have to look after their own welfare, because others find it inconvenient to wear masks? Folks at high attack risk will just have to do likewise. The immune compromised can't force others to wear masks. Gun carriers can't force others to permit guns.
Extra-frightened gun carriers are free to avoid private property where the owners prohibit gun carrying. Just as the immune compromised are free to stay home, remain unemployed, and face a far higher risk of deadly outcomes than the average extra-frightened gun guy will ever face.
That is how immuno-compromised people lived long before I was born.
Michael Ejercito — No. Immune compromised is not at all the same as nearly without immunity. Covid has inflicted far greater loss of freedom than previously on people with, for instance, auto-immune diseases—conditions often associated with unlucky genetic variants.
Many of those suffer with hyper-active immune systems, which must be somewhat suppressed medically, to control symptoms. Because much of Covid's deadly risk is associated with its tendency to stimulate over-active immune response, someone who suffers that tendency already—especially among the elderly—will be advised medically to take stringent precautions. A side effect of that necessary immune suppression is reduced effectiveness for Covid vaccinations.
Before Covid, most of those were able to live lives indistinguishable—except for residual symptoms—from the lives of others. Only some of those auto-immune conditions—for example lupus, and multiple sclerosis—were even associated with reduced life expectancy. By contrast, other auto-immune conditions, including various kinds of rheumatic arthritis, colitis, and iritis—conditions which frequently occur in combination, by the way—have long been successfully controlled by partial immune suppression without effect on life expectancy.
There are tens of millions of such people. They are much more numerous than the relatively rare people you seem to be thinking of, who are nearly without immunity.
A policy to let the public go unmasked—even in especially Covid-contagious indoor locations—including grocery stores, on public transportation, in pharmacies, and in healthcare facilities—amounts to an avoidable infliction of either lost liberty, or elevated risk, or both, on people with otherwise controllable auto-immune disease. That is a bitter policy pill to swallow, especially for those who know that all the benefit it delivers is avoidance of nearly-trivial masking inconvenience, in limited circumstances, to people otherwise medically free to live completely normal lives.
You know what? It sucks to have a medical condition that interferes with your life. That suckage doesn't entitle you to interfere with other people's lives, though. The burden is on YOU to manage it, not others.
Your argument is as applicable to influenza as to Covid.
Apparently not, medically.
If you find companies forbidding immune compromised customers or employees from bringing masks onto their property, I will happily join your fight to forbid that.
(and, I think there have been a few instances of that over the last couple of years. Companies that do that should be ashamed of themselves. That kind of callousness - forbidding someone from taking action to maintain their own safety - is just terrible)
I believe those were pre-covid rules targeted at people wearing masks to conceal their identity that were overzealously applied to people wearing masks for health reasons. Still somewhat callous, but the result of a misunderstanding rather than maliciousness I believe.
But I agree, to create a proper comparison out of Stephen Lathrop's false equivalence: The immune compromised can't force others to wear masks. Gun carriers can't force others to carry guns. The immune compromised can force others to permit their masks. Gun carriers can force others to permit their guns.
"I believe those were pre-covid rules targeted at people wearing masks to conceal their identity that were overzealously applied to people wearing masks for health reasons."
Once masks became a political flashpoint a few businesses went out of their way to prohibit them. I just searched for 'businesses banning masks' and got:
"May 22, 2020On Thursday, Vice reported on a Kentucky convenience store that put up a sign reading: "NO Face Masks allowed in store. Lower your mask or go somewhere else...."" (theguardian)
"Florida bar owner bans masks, will eject patrons who wear ...
Kirby reportedly began banning patrons with masks as of Sept. 11, claiming that the CDC-recommended safety precaution is "hindering our lifestyle as we know it..." (foxnews)
"May 28, 2020'Sorry, no mask allowed': Some businesses pledge to keep out customers who cover their faces Kevin Smith, owner of the Liberty Tree Tavern in Elgin, Tex., put up a sign banning customers from..." (WaPo)
etc, etc.
defaultdotxbe — How about a point-by-point rebuttal by you of my reply to Ejercito above? Other than an unreasoned demand to abolish public health policy altogether, what have you got? Some kind of weepy complaint that it's tyrannical to have to mask up in a grocery store? How much time per week do you spend grocery shopping?
You write:
The immune compromised can force others to permit their masks. Gun carriers can force others to permit their guns.
That gets the analogy backward. The mask protects others. The gun threatens others. To demand masking is to demand protection. To demand a gun is to demand a power to threaten. There is a moral difference. You seem not to notice it.
You didn't seem to make a lot of points. As for my "weepy complaint" these are your words, not mine: "The immune compromised can't force others to wear masks." I was simply correcting your false equivalence (and defending it with a moralistic fallacy doesn't help your position either) I hope you never find yourself in a position where you might need someone to protect you with a gun.
"The mask protects others."
N95 (N100, P100, ...) masks protect the wearer and are widely available - out local grocery has free ones by the door. Medical people have been wearing them in covid wards for two years now without getting sick.
defaultdotxbe — Typically for a gun advocate, you presume you are talking to someone unversed in what you take to be your own expertise. Almost all gun advocates seem to do that. They risk looking foolish, and do not seem to care. What that shows in fact is how unserious you are about the subject. Not that I expect you to notice that either.
you presume you are talking to someone unversed in what you take to be your own expertise
Anyone talking to you is correct to presume that you're an idiot, especially in things you claim to be well-versed in.
You've got the comparison exactly backwards. Banning others from carrying guns is more like banning the immune compromised from wearing masks. In both cases the person with the gun/mask is using such to alleviate their risk at no cost to you, so fuck off and butt out.
Absaroka, indeed they have been wearing them without getting sick. They have also been wearing them while getting sick. And the people thus sickened are probably immune compromised in only rare cases. So you do not have much of a point there.
One point I presume we can both agree upon is that transmission of disease if both parties are masked will be a tiny fraction of what it will be with either of them masked and the other not.
Social Justice is neither — One cost to me of permitting others to carry guns is my increased risk of being shot. That is your cost, too, by the way.
I am especially mindful of that because I have been targeted on purpose by gunshots in three instances. The shooters missed narrowly in two instances where I was undoubtedly targeted for injury or death, and missed more distantly in another instance where the shots were apparently fired with intent to miss. That last instance was especially memorable, because it was fully-automatic fire directed into a path in front of me by an unseen shooter. I surmised he did not want me to continue on that path, and I did not.
Bullets have also been directed at me in three instances where feckless shooters were apparently unaware of my presence, or disregarded it. I have also been threatened by guns pointed at me without any shots fired in three other instances—none of them in the least justified by anything I did. Two of those instances, separately, involved police officers who pointed drawn pistols at my head, before realizing I was not the person they sought, and letting me go.
Beyond all that, I have been present at the scenes of one criminal fatal shooting, and one criminal instance where someone was shot in the leg without apparently serious injury.
Among my friends and acquaintances, I number one person shot in the face by accident (a shotgun blast from a distance), who survived without lasting injury, and two others. The experiences of those other two included a friend shot dead in her presence, and a son maimed permanently—his jaw shot away—by criminal gunfire.
Those are just examples which came into my personal experience unbidden and unsought for. They do not include numerous others which I encountered during the practice of journalism.
I have mentioned this personal catalogue of gun violence before. Sometimes people respond with incredulity. Some suppose it is impossible to encounter so much gun violence.
I explain that I am by no means unique or even exceptional. In fact, that experience was expectable, given that it was accumulated during years spent in two particularly gun-affected locations. One was Washington, D.C. in the late 1960s. The other was Idaho in the 1970s and early 1980s. Plenty of folks in those locations had experiences similar to mine, because uncontrolled gun carrying and gun use was commonplace in DC, and customary to the point of being near-universal in rural Idaho. There, the norms were so pro-gun that I discovered the best way to assure being picked up quickly while hitchhiking was to take a rifle, and display it prominently.
Give would-be gun carriers free rein everywhere, and you can expect experiences like mine to become progressively more common everywhere. The pressure of fear and firearms prevalence will deliver that result, as gun incidents accumulate, reverberate, and make people yet more fearful over time. Many who would otherwise judge they are not competent to handle a gun, will instead conclude they have no choice.
It happens like that because a society which arms folks without constraint inevitably arms too many who cannot handle the responsibility to carry guns with reasonable safety—let alone with perfect safety, which nobody can do. It is not about criminality, although that remains a factor.
It is mainly about the toxic mix of fear and personal incompetence. To put it plainly, among ostensibly trained gun carriers, only a small minority actually achieve the self-control they suppose they have. Even fewer achieve the prowess they aspire to. Some never come close on either measure. As resort to guns increases, that latter fraction increases disproportionately.
If you think you have that prowess, I have a question for you. For how many thousands of hours have you carried a gun with the intention to use it to kill that very day? Unless you have done so— for a very long time—you can have accumulated no notion the role circumstances, surprise, and happenstance may play if you are ever challenged to use your gun for real. Still less do you understand the role circumstances, surprise, and happenstance may play while absolutely nothing else challenges you.
Life is not a movie script. Guns are not magical instruments of social pacification. Folks who suppose otherwise show by that very supposition that they do not know enough about guns—and what happens when you arm everyone—to justify public policy to risk the dangerous and hard-to-reverse social experiment the gun fans advocate.
Now do minimum wage.
Most Americans favor reasonable restrictions on guns. That position, for a number of reasons, seems likely to prevail over time.
Any severe positions arranged by gun absolutists in right-wing jurisdictions (or with a Supreme Court that is temporarily much more conservative than modern America) may be difficult to hold; the stronger the backwash, the more risk that even reasonable gun rights might be swept aside.
I hope the right to possess a reasonable gun in the home for self-defense withstands the predictable snapback. I currently make it roughly 50-50.
Most people favor things they consider reasonable? You don't say!
The problem is that "reasonable" is subjective. What one person considers reasonable another may consider unreasonable, and vice versa. So surveys asking is someone supports "reasonable" anything is little more than a tautology designed to produce affirmative responses.
The ship long sailed in 1964.
There's an area of Pittsburgh that has the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon campuses. Awhile back there was a severe number of assaults and robberies. When you looked at the locations of them you could see that they were happening right on the edge of the campuses. It turned out that criminals would wait just off campus for their victims because they knew that they couldn't carry a weapon on campus.
Several years ago a woman was murdered by her ex-husband on her way home from work because he knew that she had been reprimanded for having a gun in her car, by her employer. He knew that she was unarmed.
1991 I was fired from a job at a convivence store because I pulled a gun during a robbery. The store declined to press charges against the robber and fired me. My other job at the time was being an armed guard for a facility that housed battered spouses who had an actual threat against them. The same guy, six weeks later robbed the store and raped the girl who replaced me.
It explains why laws requiring private property owners to allow guns on their land are an affront to property rights, and violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment.
I am a lifelong pro-gun advocate, who has owned more than a dozen firearms, used for hunting. I got my first firearms training from the NRA at the age of eight, when I was a cub scout.
I am more moderate about resistance to gun control than most of the pro-gun advocates who comment here. I consider some of their advocacy extreme and unreasonable. On the other hand, I am in scant company in my own advocacy that the 2A really does prescribe freedom to own and use fully automatic assault rifles, and perhaps other fully automatic weapons—albeit in a militia context, under military discipline, outside the National Guard.
With that for context, if gun advocates win the point on requiring private property owners to permit others to bring guns onto their private property, then I will consider it a signal for full-on reconsideration of the 2A. I doubt gun advocates who comment here have any idea how much hostility a, "victory," of that sort will mobilize, including from more-moderate supporters of gun rights. Obviously, the 2A would not be promptly overturned as a result. But a change in course in that direction in public opinion would occur.
Why can't gun advocates see that they propose to undermine their own safety—and the safety of everyone else—by empowering armed assailants they fear to get closer more often? What they demand would enable bad guys to hide within crowds of good guys, among whom gun possession will no longer distinguish the bad guys as inappropriately motivated.
A society where carriage of arms is general and customary will inevitably include among the armed the incompetent, the emotionally ungoverned, the feckless, the intoxicated, and the insane—many of whom will be potentially dangerous, but socially deterrable—along with actual criminals more difficult to deter. Ability to suspect criminal danger by recognizing inappropriate gun possession in public and private places has long been an important aspect of public safety, relied upon in this nation for centuries. It is unwise to demand a policy change which would make that impossible.
Of course I understand that would-be lawful gun carriers may resent that suspicion of inappropriate motive may fall on them too, unless they too get to carry in a universally armed crowd. I insist that enduring that suspicion is a price society ought to be willing to pay for public safety. It is a far more endurable price than the cost in others' lives the pro-gun advocates demand the nation accept as the cost of their own freedom.
"Why can't gun advocates see that they propose to undermine their own safety—and the safety of everyone else—by empowering armed assailants they fear to get closer more often?"
This sort of reasoning was understandable when the concealed carry reform movement got started. You could predict "blood in the streets", and who could say you were wrong?
We're now in the mopping up phase of concealed carry reform. There are 27 "shall issue" states, with 14 providing licensing authorities very limited discretion, and 13 making issuance essentially automatic.
There are 5 states that, while theoretically allowing concealed carry permits, are so restrictive that it's essentially prohibited unless you have serious connections.
What I'm saying is, it's too late for your sort of speculation about hypothetical dangers, we have data now.
And it doesn't support your fears.
Bellmore, you are nowhere near the gun saturation your advocacy will eventually deliver if it succeeds. Gun violence most places has not yet begun to become so prevalent it will frighten folks who judge themselves incompetent to handle guns into buying them anyway. That is yet to come.
That said, blood in the streets, to the tune of ~ 100,000 people treated annually for gunshots, plus fatalities, plus suicides, is a baleful consequence too imposing for many people to be stupid about, but apparently not for gun advocates.
Why?
That last is key: Gun control was, in large part, an element of Jim Crow. It wasn't exclusively aimed at blacks, but prior to the latter part of the 20th century, it WAS almost exclusively targeting distrusted minority groups.
If you didn't have distrusted minority groups, you didn't bother with gun control.
Hmmm...that sounds like a CRT lesson and we can't have any of that.
Nah, it's just standard history. Pretty sure that Vermont didn't have segregated drinking fountains, either.
Gun control was Jim Crow. (Dave really should see about updating his security certificate.)
A lot of people agree that CRT is "just standard history."
It's the mouth-breathers who don't.
Yeah, too many people to fit in a phone booth agree with that.
No, it's not standard history, the "Critical" might tip you off to that.
A lot of people agree that CRT is "just standard history."
It's the mouth-breathers who don't.
Your claim that you've spent the last 30 years working in national security might go a long way toward explaining the numerous NS failures that have occurred during that time period.
IC janitors have clearances, too, Wuz.