The Volokh Conspiracy
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Jurors Who "Believe That Some Races … Tend to Be More Violent Than Others,"
interpreting "tend to" as reflecting the "statistics" about racial disparities in committing violent crimes.
Today's dissent from denial of certiorari in Love v. Texas (written by Justice Sotomayor and joined by Justices Breyer and Kagan) argues that Texas courts hadn't properly considered claims of racial bias based on a juror's answering "yes" to a voir dire question, "Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups tend to be more violent than others?"
In 2018, a jury convicted Love of capital murder in the course of a robbery that occurred in 2015. Prior to trial, prospective members of the jury filled out a questionnaire that included the following questions:
"68. Do you sometimes personally harbor bias against members of certain races or ethnic groups?
"69. Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups tend to be more violent than others?"
To the first question, No. 68, the prospective juror at issue answered, "No." But to the second question, No. 69, he answered, "Yes." He explained that "[s]tatistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics."
During the voir dire proceeding that followed, both Love and the State questioned the prospective juror about his response to question No. 69. He explained that he understood "[n]on-white" races to be the "more violent races." He claimed that he had seen statistics to this effect in "[n]ews reports and criminology classes" he had taken.
He stated that his answer to question No. 69 was based on these statistics, rather than his "personal feelings towards one race or another," and he indicated that he did not "think because of somebody's race they're more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race." He told defense counsel that he would not feel differently about Love "because he's an African American."
I appreciate the dissent's arguments that Texas courts hadn't considered this enough, and that the Texas courts were mistaken in their harmless error analysis, which focused on the availability of peremptory challenges earlier in the process (the challenges were apparently used up by the time the juror was being questioned). The Texas courts apparently never reached the merits of the argument that the juror was biased and therefore should have been excluded for cause.
But, shifting away from the specific procedural pointer the dissent was stressing, I don't think that, on the merits, the juror should have been excluded here, at least absent further evidence of bias that wasn't mentioned in the opinion. While "tend to" in the question is ambiguous, I take it many reasonable jurors can interpret it as simply reflecting statistical correlation related to the per capita offense rate, and in particular statistical correlation within the U.S., which is how the juror said he was reading it; recall that the juror was a layman reading a question given to him on the questionnaire, rather than formulating it as his own statement. (If you saw this question on a juror questionnaire today, would you think the court is using "tend to" to refer to some hypothetical biological connection, or just to a statistical correlation?)
And under that interpretation, the answer of many fair-minded people who have seen the statistics would be "yes," even recognizing the limitations of the statistics (see here for more on the statistics and the limitations). As best I can tell, one can't say this accurately about "non-white" races generally, whether or not that includes Hispanics, who are often treated as a racial group in lay discussions, so the juror likely erred on that score. But it does appear to be true about blacks in the U.S., e.g. (focus here on the first column, since that's less skewed by differences in rates of reporting to the police):
(Recall that the U.S. population is 60.1% non-Hispanic white, 18.5% Hispanic, 13.4% black, and 5.9% Asian [2020 data].) The juror thus might have been giving an honest answer about his eminently plausible belief, based on real evidence gathered and distributed by generally trusted government agencies.
To offer an obviously imperfect analogy, I take it that sex bias by jurors is also impermissible; but if people were asked, "Do you believe that people of one sex tend to be more violent than other people?," I assume many fair-minded jurors would feel obliged to say "yes." The sex-based differences in violent offense rates are of course much starker than the race-based differences, and one could argue that sex isn't identical to race for such purposes (though it's very close for many purposes, cf. J.E.B. v. T.B. (1994), in a slightly different juror context), for instance because it's likely that there is some biological connection between sex and violence. Still, I think this helps show the peril of removing jurors for cause based on their accurate beliefs about the criminological data.
I wonder also whether it shows the peril of including such a question on the questionnaire in the first place (or at least in wording the question the way it was worded). On one hand, a "yes" answer might lead to useful further questioning about whether the juror can decide the case based on the evidence about this defendant, and not about statistical generalizations about racial groups.
On the other hand, it may also lead more jurors to actually be influenced by such statistical generalizations (because the question will remind them of things they've heard along these lines, whether or not they then candidly answer "yes"). And given that many fair-minded jurors would, if honest, answer the question "yes," simply because the statistics do suggest such an answer, it may tend to identify not prejudiced jurors but honest jurors.
In any event, I'd love to hear what others, especially experienced criminal defense lawyers, have to say about this.
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Race is a phony social construct—culture and genetics are very real. So genetics means that some ethnicities are taller than others. Culture means some ethnicities are more violent than others. But watch West Side Story and you can see how fragile ethnicity is and how it can be changed in one generation in America and so I’m not sure how useful it is.
Compare the confuct if Japanese in 1930s Namking to the Japanese in present-day Los Angeles.
Crime rates between the two groups are very different.
Race is a phony social construct—culture and genetics are very real. So genetics means that some ethnicities are taller than others.
You have me puzzled there, kemosabe. If it is genetics that makes some "ethnicities" taller than others, would that not be a heritable trait, making ethnicity just the same - conceptually - as race ?
Obviously race may be "a phony social construct" as applied - ie society may historically have parcelled folk into "racial" groups that are not good fits to shared ancestry - without making "race" a facially phony construct - we could still have valid races - denoting a population groups actually sharing some statistically distinctive genetic inheritance.
Moreover if ethnicity is supposed to denote a rich and complex mix of cultural and genetic inheritance, it seems odd to link it to the genetic component of height. Growing up in Mexico, speaking Spanish, may help pour you into a Hispanic ethnic grouping, but it does nothing to help you reach the items on the top shelf in the supermarket.
Culture means some ethnicities are more violent than others.
In considering the effects of biology and the environment on human society, we should avoid equating the environmet with culture. Culture is but a part of environmental influence. Thus, say, blue striped people may have no greater genetic or cultural tendency to violence than anybody else, but they may have been disproportionately exposed to lead as children - based on where they happened, on average, to live - and so may be more violent, on average, for reasons that have nothing to do with either genes or culture.
Genetics is real—so instead of race analyze through the prism of genetics. Btw, slavery in America was really about genetics because skin color is an inheritable trait—it’s that simple.
There was no genetic testing during the times of slavery in America. Slavery was about phenotype which is related to, but not equivalent to, genetics. Hence, the phenomenon of passing. As just one example of how your simple comment is simply wrong.
Since 1973, the Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard of crime surveys, adopted by the UN for measuring crime around the world, has given the same answer as the juror did in 69. The dissenters are in denial of reality. This survey is not based on police reports, which may involve bias by reporters and by police. It is based on household survey of crime victimization in the past week. Blacks commit far more violent crimes than other ethnic groups, mostly victimizing those in their vicinity, other blacks. Blacks rape 35000 white women. Whites rape no black women. The black fraction of murder victimization far exceeds their fraction of the population. Yet, instead of screaming for more protection, Blacks continue to vote for Democrats and for less protection.
See Table 42. The 35000 were in 2005, 20000 in 2008. The criticism was that BJS extrapolated from small sample sizes to the population, and that was acknowledged by them.
Except this completely ignores the premise of police reports (where blacks would be far more likely to be reported due to any number of reasons) and also socioeconomic conditions.
Congrats though- you've twisted some bullshit word salad to support your narrative that blacks are dumb for voting Democrat.
Everybody who votes Democrat is some mixture of dumb or evil -- It is what it is.
If blacks were smart they would see the only thing the Democrats have done for them is put them right back on the plantation. This time, it's the government one.
The Democrat programs have been a success and now they are being applied to the other races.
Do you know what Crime Victimization Survey is?
Hint: It doesn't involve police or police reports.
Its literally just a factual statement to say some groups tend more toward violence than others based on statistics. I mean you can argue all day about whether its correct or the reasons behind it but have we gotten to the point where denying what you see right in front of you on a graph is expected?
That seems extremely generous to the juror in question. I think 99 out of a 100 native speakers would read that question as implying an element of causality, whereby (say) Black people are more violent *because* they're black.
Martinned: Well, the juror did try to clarify how he read the question, right? He responded to to it "Yes," but with the qualifier that he was interpreting it to refer to statistics. Perhaps, among other things, he didn't expect that a court in 2022 would even ask a question that suggests some inherent causal link between race and criminality, but was likely referring to statistical beliefs.
Blacks have the same rate of antisocial personality disorder as whites. That is the condition associated with criminality and occuring in 50% of prisoners. They are not genetically predisposed to crime compared to anyone else.
Prior to the war on poverty, their bastardy rate and their criminality rate were slightly higher than that of whites. After the feminist lawyer destroyed the Black family, that disparity exploded. That is the most powerful factor driving the disparity. Why destroy the family? To replace it with big government, in rent seeking.
You're right, the response goes some way towards mitigating the risk. But I still think you're being generous. (As demonstrated by various other people in the comments here, who seem to believe that statistics proves that African Americans are inherently less law-abiding, intelligent, or I'm-not-sure-what.)
"But I still think you're being generous."
Sounds like you're being ungenerous.
"he indicated that he did not "think because of somebody's race they're more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race." He told defense counsel that he would not feel differently about Love "because he's an African American.""
The guy expressly repudiated the interpretation that you're trying to hang on him.
Because confirmation bias is a thing, the fact that a guy says that he understood "[n]on-white" races to be the "more violent races", certainly wouldn't make me as (whether a lawyer defending a "non-white" client or as the "non-white" defendant want this man on a jury. As a judge, can I really expect him to put his confirmation bias aside.
Given what we know about human psychology, how credible is it for a person to claim they believe a defendant is a member of one of the "more violent races" but set that aside and be objective?
This gem: He claimed that he had seen statistics to this effect in "[n]ews reports and criminology classes" he had taken.
That's a gross misinterpretation of the statistics Eugene kindly (sarcasm intended) shares with this crowd. The stats, as others have pointed out, show people arrested, not people who actually committed crimes. Moreover, as others have also pointed out, there are legions of studies that show "non-white" people tended to be stopped, arrested, and charged more than "white" people despite evidence that the particular crime is being committed at similar rates by each "race". In addition, it is well-established that non-white defendants charged with similar crimes are more likely to be convicted and one should pause to consider whether the juror's consumption of these stats on/in "news reports and criminology classes" might contribute to this disparity.
Further, as I'm sure others have pointed out, these statistics aren't adjusted for socioeconomic status and other factors, making the conclusion that there are "more violent races" not an "eminently plausible belief" as Eugene would phrase it.
The implausibility is further solidified by the fact that "race" as understood in America is entirely a social construct which only very loosely correlates to any genetic features and that primarily involving skin color (in America, a person of Ghanian descent will be considered the same race as a person of Ethiopian descent who actually likely share more of their DNA with a German. ( https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ancient-ethiopian-dna-eurasia-20151008-story.html )
And, finally, a person's claim in 2022 that they can fairly judge a person who, moments before, also thinks the defendant belongs to one of the "more violent races" has so little probative value, even if believed to be sincere, that it can't outweigh the obvious confirmation bias that will very much be in play.
These bigots will lose. They always do in America. The Volokh Conspiracy will fight to make the world safe for bigots as long as possible, though. But in the end the bigots do not win in America, and this latest batch of bigots is nothing special.
The juror's comment about "non-white" races being "more violent" would be a good reason to excuse him for cause, but that wasn't the question before the court.
The jury questionnaire did not ask if there was a tendency independent of "socioeconomic status and other factors" for "some races and/or ethnic groups tend[ing] to be more violent than others". It just asked if there was such a tendency. Should jurors be expected to answer a different question than what is written?
Michael P,
The OP was about the merits.
But on the question before the Court, the dissent eviscerates the majority on the issue of whether, with the defense having used all of their peremptory challenges, it was harmless error to let a person who shouldn't be on the jury to, nonetheless, be on the jury. (The harmless error analysis presumes the unfitness, otherwise there is no error.).
The jury questionnaire also did not ask if there was a tendency for groups with lower socioeconomic status to be more violent, but that's essentially what those statistics show. It's why answering yes to the question betrays either racist beliefs or a misunderstanding of what the statistics show (which could itself be based on racist assumptions informing the interpretation of the statistics).
But the question asked whether they "tend to". The definition of the verb tend is: "to exhibit an inclination". (Merriam-Webster). So, the question was:
"Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups exhibit an inclination to be more violent than others?"
The most natural definition of "inclination" in this sense is: "a particular disposition of mind or character" (Merriam-Webster).
"Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups exhibit a particular disposition of mind or character to be more violent than others?"
Statistics based on these broad categories of race don't answer that. You can only think they do if you think that the statistical correlation is causation where the character of "races" is what leads to more criminal convictions. And if you think that, check your racism. And the juror expressed a belief that there are "more violent races" and the defendant was a member of one of those. His explanation made things worse, frankly.
The yes answer was sufficiently suspect to create a constitutionally suspect jury when that juror was seated.
"Given what we know about human psychology, how credible is it for a person to claim they believe a defendant is a member of one of the "more violent races" but set that aside and be objective?"
If someone says 'I think the statistics show that males commit more murders than females', can they be trusted to fairly judge a male (or female!) defendant it the specific case at hand?
Absaroka,
That's not what the question asked. The operative verb was "tend" as in inclination or propensity which is something different from mere statistical result. To get from statistics to a propensity, you need to add in some judgments (in this case, racist ones).
But to answer your question: Maybe.
I'm not sure how that comment is supposed to have come up, which matters. But the statement you wrote was purely about statistics and the number of murders. Moreover, there is not the same history of misuse of sex to discriminate against male defendants vis a vis female defendants as there has been to discriminate against non-white defendants as compared to white defendants. Which is why that question has probably never been asked (or the comment never given) in a jury voir dire.
But also, there actually are genetic bases (not least that males are, on average, larger and stronger than females and, on average, have more aggression-related hormones) as well (likely) as cultural ones at play. In the race case, there isn't a genetic basis for the statistical disparities we see in the United States. That's why, the juror's statement that there are "more violent races" is constitutionally suspect.
"The operative verb was "tend" as in inclination or propensity which is something different from mere statistical result."
I don't see that distinction. If I say 'It tends to rain more in Seattle than Tucson', is that what you call 'statistical' or 'propensity'?
(FWIW, Merriam-Webster lists 'propensity' and 'tendency' as synonyms of each other)
Ooops, strike that last sentence, you're not arguing they aren't synonyms.
No the question is 'x is a'. 99/100 native english speakers do not look at that and automatically reformat it as 'x is a because of b'. If I'm wrong show me where you got the '99/100' data. Kindergarten level logic. You should learn it.
A non-native English speaker claims to know what 99% of native speakers would understand. This is rich.
Well, the counter-argument he got was also from a non-native English speaker.
"Rich" is actually closer than you realise, given how much of my day job involves writing texts for native speakers of English that aim to convince them of difficult things without using lots of difficult words. I spend a lot of time every day trying to figure out what the simplest way is to say something complicated without running the risk of being misunderstood.
Then you must be shit at your job if your writing here is an accurate measure.
If your opinion is based on the premise that 99 out of 100 native speakers (or anyone else) is ignorant of how statistics actually work or should be interpreted, I might agree with you. That does not make the question any less problematic because the 1% who do understand statistics still get called for jury duty.
The question as originally put doesn't refer to statistics.
The question as originally put most definitely does refer to statistics for any reader with prior knowledge of statistical studies on the correlations between race and crime - which is pretty much everyone who reads a newspaper, news blog or watches TV.
Statistics is racist and bigoted unless it is used to show how some people are supposedly oppressed or how women make 30% less than men, then it is "believe in statistics".
By the same logic women commit rape as often as men. You know there might be something to this...
If you are talking about rape with absent of consent especially when intoxicated, I imagine the rate of woman to man victimizers is actually quite high. Society is basically programmed to reject any rape claim a man comes forward with that involves a woman. That is doubly true for consent based issues. Would not surprise me in the least if we find there is a very high incident rate of this kind of rape if it could ever be objectively studied.
The first rape mentioned in the Bible was that of a man so intoxicated he was unaware of his surroundings.
"The first rape mentioned in the Bible was that of a man so intoxicated he was unaware of his surroundings."
Anything from the Marvel universe, Grimm's Fairy Tales, or Game Of Thrones that you think adds similarly to this discussion?
Actually, the rate of statutory rape by women is non-trivial. And where the victims are male, 94% of the perpetrators are female.
I've seen speculation that at least some of the difference in rape commission 'rates' between the sexes consists of an extreme reluctance on the part of the legal system to actually admit that women ever rape, and the discrepancy shrinks for statutory rape because the legal system can't rationalize that the victim really must have consented or been the real rapist.
You can see this in a lot of cases of rape by intoxication, where both parties to the sex act were intoxicated, so naturally it's the man who committed the rape.
I mean this in the most respectful way, but you give a very strong impression of someone who has never made the most modest effort learn about the subject that you're opining about.
Then perhaps you can enlighten the poor ignorant Brett about the Truth of the topic of rapes and gender?
I'll be looking forward to also seeing the statistics and data you will surely cite in your explanation.
At least he's not proud of it, the way some others here are. He's just Dunning-Krugeresquely not aware that he doesn't know stuff.
Are you insinuating that it is not possible for man to rape a woman? If so, I seriously wonder if you know how heterosexual relations work....
My 94% number came from the DOJ.
And you will not lack for accounts of two people getting drunk, having sex, and the man is automatically presumed to be "the" rapist.
Brett,
There are levels of intoxication. The situation you posit can happen.
You absolutely can have a situation of slightly tipsy guy raping blackout drunk gal.
But I think Brett was referring to a situation where two equally drunk people have mutually willing sex, and later one of them claims they were too drunk to give effective consent. And that seems wrong - if two people are equally drunk and engage in the same behavior, how do you choose one as victim and one as perpetrator? They both did identical things.
I have no idea what the male/female breakdown of those situations is. I believe that one was discussed here a few years ago, so they do happen.
No, I'm not insinuating that, and I'm at a loss to see how you could reach that conclusion from anything I said.
Not among people who understand the elements of the criminal offenses at issue.
Last time I checked (sometime ago) nearly half of all murder victims were black and to the extent their murderer could be identified they were overwhelmingly murdered by another black. Blacks make up around 13% of the US population.
Dat Be Race-ist!
Those are hate facts, and you are a white supremacist for repeating them.
Well, posting the correlation as though it has anything to say about causality is pretty racist.
Isn't that the whole point of this post? That the jury questionnaire could be interpreted either way, and not only about causation?
" Isn't that the whole point of this post? "
The whole purpose of this post is to lather a bunch of racist fans of this white, male, right-wing blog into an anti-woke clinger frenzy.
In defending a nursing home recently one prospective juror said he believed that nursing homes were “bad places” but he believed he could be objective on this case. I pointed out to the J.H.O. that if he had said, “I think African Americans tend to be criminals, but I can be objective about this defendant”, it would be grounds for dismissal for cause. The J.H.O. agreed with me.
That's a non sequitur. The questionnaire did not ask whether AA's tend to be criminals. The prospective juror did not respond to such a question.
I just thought the VCers might want to hear from an actual trial attorney as to a similar situation that really happened to me.
And we are and you were correct on both counts.
So that question can eliminate a juror, no matter what he answers.
If he truthfully answers "yes" they can eliminate him for racial bias.
If he answers "no", he can be eliminated either for lying, or being so ignorant that he lacks the mental capacity to be a juror.
There's a minimum mental capacity to be a juror? I thought the system was constituted to ensure all the smarter people were dismissed as jurors.
Many (most?) people do not actually want to serve on a jury. Sort of like asking - do you trust police officers. Either answer would seem to disqualify the responder.
My wife has suggested that if you really want to be excused from jury duty, you need to make sure that prosecution and the defense attorney hear you saying, "I hope they pick me. I can just *look* at a defendant and know whether he's guilty."
In fact, she's been able to get out of jury duty just by telling about all the lawyers she is related to or has as friends. {This is a state where practicing lawyers can automatically get excused from jury duty just by asking.)
I'd just throw on my Fully Informed Juror T-shirt when I showed up. Except, of course, that my employer compensates me if I have to do jury duty, and I think it would be kind of interesting to be a juror, so I probably wouldn't be trying to avoid jury duty.
Well, it's not the only question a juror can be eliminated for honestly and accurately answering. You can get kicked off a jury for knowing about jury nulification, too.
[citation needed]
https://fija.org/library-and-resources/library/jury-nullification-faq/should-i-discuss-jury-nullification-with-my-fellow-jurors.html#:~:text=For%20the%20most%20part%2C%20the%20answer%20is%20no.&text=It%20is%20well%2Destablished%20that,their%20option%20to%20conscientiously%20acquit.
That link says (correctly) that you can be removed from jury service if you are not willing to follow your oath and obey the judge's legal instructions. It does not say you can be "kicked off a jury for knowing about jury nulification."
"Citation needed"
-Citation given
"No not that citation, I need another one!
Oh, what the link actually said is...rather different from what you allude to. Here it is for others.
"Should I discuss jury nullification with my fellow jurors?
For the most part, the answer is no. You should NOT discuss jury nullification with your fellow jurors.
It is well-established that it is perfectly legal for a juror to vote not guilty for any reason they believe is just. However, courts have also decided that they can remove jurors for considering their option to conscientiously acquit.
This applies anytime until the verdict is officially rendered. Even as late as deliberations, if a disgruntled fellow juror decides to tattle on you to the judge, you could be replaced with an alternate juror. We recommend not openly discussing jury nullification during deliberations."
So you can "know" about Jury Nullification...as long as you tell absolutely no one about it. If you mention it...you can be removed.
You are correct that I was asking for a citation for the proposition that Brett Bellmore was claiming to be true, not just a citation to something else. I apologize if that was confusing.
So, in other words you want an example of a juror being kicked off of a trial for knowing about jury nullification, but the juror can't have told anyone he or she knows about jury nullification.
So, if the prosecutor asks the juror about jury nullification, and the juror responds, "Yes, I know about it"...and the prosecutor kicks the juror off.
Then that's not an example. Because the juror TOLD someone he or she knows about it, and its the "telling someone" that's not the same as "just" knowing about it.
Talk about splitting hairs....
Yes, that would be an example of what Brett Bellmore was talking about. Do you know of one?
Your link was talking about a juror explaining the concept of nullification during deliberations and acknowledging engaging in it during deliberations or proposing that other jurors do the same.
Here's a nice review
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4964&context=uclrev
"I. EXCLUDING NULLIFIERS FROM THE JURY
It is common today for judges to excuse "for cause" those venirepersons who reveal themselves as potential nullifiers during
voir dire. A juror may be excused after admitting that she believes in a juror's right to acquit a person the law says is guilty,
expressing doubts about the law under which the defendant is
charged, revealing suspicions about how that law has been enforced, or otherwise indicating unwillingness to convict the accused upon learning the legal standards that apply. Death penalty cases are the best known example of cases in which challenges for cause are regularly employed to excuse potential jurors because of their disagreement with the law"
You know what was missing from your 'source?'
An actual cited source. You know - an instance of what they claim to be possible, actually happening.
Sure. Here's a nice example. Potential jurors said they wouldn't convict the person (even before the person went to trial or they heard the full case), because they couldn't imagine convicting someone for such a crime.
https://missoulian.com/news/local/article_464bdc0a-0b36-11e0-a594-001cc4c03286.html
Again, that's the juror saying that they don't intend to follow the law, not that they know about jury nullification.
Who says that jury nullification violates the law? As far as I know, it's judges, but it's not really a justiciable issue.
Jurors in every jurisdiction in the United States that I'm familiar with take an oath to follow the law as the judge instructs them, and that law includes a requirement that the jurors return a guilty verdict if the prosecution proves the elements of the charged crime beyond a reasonable doubt. A juror violates that oath by refusing to return a guilty verdict even if the prosecution proved the commission of the crime, which is what Armchair Lawyer's website is encouraging them to do.
That's right, they take such an oath. And yet, if you look back at the history of the right to trial by jury, the great triumphs they brag about, such as the Penn case, are all jury nullification. The right to trial by jury is a right to a jury that can nullify.
The Supreme court has confirmed that jurors have a right to nullify, but permits the legal system to lie to them about it, and demand that they promise not to. Because lawyers don't want human jurors, they want the proverbial mushrooms: Kept in the dark and fed BS.
"Again, that's the juror saying that they don't intend to follow the law,"
Umm.. That's what Jury Nullification essentially is...
"Jury nullification occurs when a jury returns a verdict of "Not Guilty" despite its belief that the defendant is guilty of the violation charged. The jury in effect nullifies a law that it believes is either immoral or wrongly applied to the defendant whose fate they are charged with deciding"
It's no more the juror saying that they don't intend to follow the law, than prosecutorial discretion is. Prosecutors decide cases aren't worth prosecuting all the time. Well, the system the founders gave us expected that the jurors would be entitled to decide that, too.
It is, in fact, a major POINT of having a jury system, that jurors will refuse to convict under laws that violate their consciences. William Penn was guilty as hell of the charge. So was John Peter Zenger.
So exactly like the Leftist version of free speech.
because it's likely that there is some biological connection between sex and violence
First you need to establish some sort of connection between biology and sex. They're not going to allow you just to stipulate it.
"for instance because it's likely that there is some biological connection between sex and violence."
Could be some biological connection between race and violence, too. But it would take a lot of the sort of research that ends careers to confirm that.
That's actually a different question. In some respects, it may be easier to look at by country. Let's take an country that has a large black African population, like Kenya. It's got a homicide rate of 4.39 and serious assault rate of 34.07 (per 100,000). That's roughly equivalent to Latvia (4.36, 33.5) or Ecuador (5.8, 37.6).
So, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a "biological" connection.
But cultural...that's different. The culture of Kenya versus the African American community is quite different.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country
FIFY
Pity, no strikethrough for me.
Anyway, what I was trying to point out that the "African" in that sentence is redundant.
So, you're saying "American culture" is the same thing as "African American" culture?
No, I'm saying that American culture is generally very violent, in a way that explains the difference in outcomes between African Americans and Kenya.
The problem with saying that American culture is generally very violent, is that American culture is actually pretty heterogeneous, it's a mix of cultures, some of which are insanely violent, and most of which are quite peaceful.
Not only that but it also includes the African American community to drag up the average and the overall American population is more dissimilar to the Kenyan comparable than the African American community.
Yeah, honestly I think it's culture. I was just pointing out that it's not as though there were a total lack of evidence for a biological component.
But we'll probably never find out, because that IS the kind of research that ends careers.
Yeah, Bellmore, there is total lack of evidence. You aren't, "pointing out," you are insinuating. And you don't have to blow up any research careers to prove it. You just have to do a kind of research right wingers these days try to outlaw—historical research.
Want better evidence to compare violent tendencies among blacks and whites? Just substitute the interval 1800–Present, for 1950–Present. How does your, "biological," violence balance look that way?
Could you please stifle racist crap tendencies. I grew up around that stuff. I don't have patience left for it.
So, all we need to do is ask four questions in quick succession.
1. Do you believe that men tend to be paid more money than women?
2. Do you believe that women tend to be less violent then men?
3. Do you believe that white Americans tend to be paid more than black Americans?
4. Do you believe that white Americans tend to be involved in less violent crimes than black Americans?
If they answer "Yes, Yes, Yes, No"....then they are inherently biased in a non-logical way.
Alternatively, they recognize "be involved with" as weasel words, and decline to agree with a blank check.
1 and 3 aren't asking about the propensities of men versus women or "white Americans" versus "black Americans", it is asking whether there are cultural biases such that decision-makers have a propensity to treat men differently from women and "white Americans" differently than "black Americans". At least in 1950s America, say, this is indisputably true. I suppose not everyone will agree in 2022, so for this logical exercise, let's stipulate 1950. So, for these questions, the "tend" is clearly linked to statistics, not an inherent characteristic or propensity of the groups being asked about.
Number 2 is different from Number 4 because, as Eugene noted in refuting his own example, the categorization of people as male or female in crime stats has a biological and genetic basis (setting aside social, legal, and other categorizations) which is not the case with "white" versus "black".
Number 4 would seem to be asking about the propensities of "white Americans" versus "black Americans" which is fundamentally different than the prior questions 1 and 3. In any event, the word "tend" is doing different work in sentences 1 and 3 than it is in sentences 2 and 4. (And it's really doing different work, or should be, in sentence 2 than it is in 4.)
Your example and your logic fails. (Your grammar too, it should be "fewer" not "less", if you didn't mean the crimes were less violent rather than that there were fewer of them.)
To have a prayer of making your series work as you intend, you would have to avoid reliance on the word "tend" (which is, at best, ambiguous in these examples) and say what you mean. But, then, by asking clear questions, you'll see that all of the answers don't have to be the same or you have to fundamentally change the questions.
Statistics are generally applied to large populations while trials are focused on one individual. The question is can the juror in question understand the difference? It appears the lawyers did some follow up questioning, the issue may be did they do enough.
I would also hope that those using these types of survey tools are not looking at one question, but rather a pattern in a series of questions that might lead them to conclude the juror will not be impartial when presented the evidence.
If the questions were supposed to apply only to the individual in the case, why did it ask for the opinion about "races or ethnic groups"? Those are made up of far more than just one individual.
Perhaps the question should have been something like "Will you have any prejudice against this individual because of their race or ethnic group?". But that's not what was actually asked.
Wise Latina who wanted to attack Justice Scalia with a baseball bat has thoughts on race and violent tendencies.
Wise Latina...Juan Marichal...Hispanics...baseball bat...you may have something there!
Of course. On the other hand,
"Every human race has precisely the same statistical distribution as every other on all human traits of behavior, intelligence, and personality." (source)
(The author doesn't really believe this. Neither do I. I'd venture to say, neither do most people. And no, I don't think that makes them "biased," just observant.)
What you want to know is whether the prospective juror is likely to render a fair verdict in this case (of course, "fair" means, if you are representing the defendant, that the prospect is likely to be biased in your client's favor; and contra if you are the prosecutor). The answer to the highlighted question doesn't give you useful information, even if you can assume that the answer is truthful, which you can't. Real, live voir dire may provide information on which an experienced lawyer can make an argument and a judge can make a decision, but this questionnaire alone doesn't.
I agree that it's a poorly worded question. As you touch on at the end, that question is more likely to create bias by bringing race-based crime statistics back to proximate consideration than it is to identify preexisting bias.
Stick with the bigots, professor. It suits you.
Plus, by this point, the mainstream probably doesn't want to have much to do with you.
Artie. Woke is denial of facts. All -isms are folk statistics, mostly true, most of the time. You need to stop that big woke talk. You need to start that big woke acting. Resign and interview your diverse, genetically equal replacement.
The statistics are the truth. (If anything, they understate it, since federal agencies design their information demands to try to produce the political results they want; see for instance, how they define alcohol-related traffic deaths.)
Therefore, it is not bias to know and use those facts. It is bias to remove potential jurors for doing so.
Why not give jurors an implicit association test, instead of (or in addition to) a questionnaire? Such tests are meant to reveal unconscious biases without relying on the person's honesty or self-awareness.
But only if there is an implicit association test that has not yet been debunked. Which probably means none.
How did this entire comment thread get to almost 100 without someone remarking about the juror being no. 69 in some sophomoric manner????
Leaving completely aside any theory about statistics, correlations, causation, etc., what harm does it do to anyone to ask the question and strike the juror?
To put it another way, what is wrong with asking a question which might in less-common instances expose racist bias in a juror, and then acting with precautionary intent where certainty about what an answer means is unavailable?
Steve Sailer pointed out something interesting from Sotomayor's dissent (which Kagan and Breyer signed off on):
https://www.unz.com/isteve/justice-sotomayor-intelligent-well-informed-reasonable-minded-people-must-be-banned-from-capital-case-juries/
Since Sotomayor capitalizes "black" but not "white" doesn't that prove her own bias? So by her own reasoning, shouldn't she have recused herself from this case?