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Judge Bill Pryor Challenges Common-Good Constitutionalism
A recent lecture defends Originalist judging against its upstart conservative rival.
Last Friday, Chief Judge William Pryor of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit delivered a lecture responding to calls for "common-good constitutionalism" by some conservative pundits and legal scholars. This lecture, "Against Living Common Goodism," was the Keynote address at the Federalist Society's 2022 Ohio Chapters Conference and is now available online (including as a nicely formatted PDF).
Judge Pryor's lecture takes direct aim at the work of Harvard Law School's Adrian Vermeule, in particular, and argues that there is little to distinguish "common good constitutionalism" from progressive legal theories of a living constitution, other than its explicit political valence.
Here is a taste:
I want . . . to address a kind of results-oriented jurisprudence that is indistinguishable in everything but name from Justice Brennan's living constitutionalism: Harvard Law Professor Adrian Vermeule's so-called common-good constitutionalism—a variant of what I call living common goodism. Vermeule's approach, in his words, "take[s] as its starting point substantive moral principles that conduce to the common good, principles that [judges] . . . should read into the majestic generalities and ambiguities of the written Constitution." Replace "common good" with "human dignity" and Vermeule's living common goodism sounds a lot like Brennan's living constitutionalism. Indeed, the difference between Brennan's living constitutionalism and Vermeule's living common goodism consists mainly in their differing substantive moral beliefs; in practice, the methodologies are the same.
Although I disagree with Vermeule's view, it would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand. To be sure, there is little evidence that many judges or lawyers have been persuaded by Vermeule but his view is being taken seriously by at least some law students. And because the history of the Federalist Society proves that minority views can become prevailing ones, we should take seriously even mistaken views like living common goodism. So I want to explain why Vermeule's view is mistaken.
The Constitution does not give judges the power to "read into" the text of the Constitution "substantive moral principles that conduce to the common good. And fashioning that kind of jurisprudence would conflict with natural law. As Professor Robert George has explained, when courts exceed their jurisdiction and usurp "legislative authority," whether for good or bad causes, "they violate the rule of law by seizing power authoritatively allocated by the framers and ratifiers of the Constitution to other branches of government."
And from Judge Pryor's conclusion:
I will close by quoting from Justice Benjamin Curtis's dissent in Dred Scott v. Sandford. I do so because Vermeule repeatedly invokes the living-constitutionalist myth that Dred Scott is "the most clearly proto-originalist decision." Justice Curtis, like the courts that later rejected Riggs, repudiated the approach that would allow judges to read unmentioned exceptions into unambiguous texts. When addressing whether the Supreme Court had the authority "to insert into . . . the Constitution an exception of the exclusion or allowance of slavery" to Congress's express "power to make all needful rules and regulations respecting" territories, Curtis rejected Chief Justice Taney's majority opinion as anti-textualist:
To engraft on [the Constitution] a substantive exception not found in it, . . . upon reasons purely political, renders its judicial interpretation impossible—because judicial tribunals, as such, cannot decide upon political considerations. Political reasons have not the requisite certainty to afford rules of judicial interpretation. They are different in different men. They are different in the same men at different times. And when a strict interpretation of the Constitution, according to the fixed rules which govern the interpretation of laws, is abandoned, and the theoretical opinions of individuals are allowed to control its meaning, we have no longer a Constitution; we are under the government of individual men, who for the time being have power to declare what the Constitution is, according to their own views of what it ought to mean.
Justice Curtis's textualist dissent in Dred Scott rejected living common goodism. So should you!
This is Judge Pryor's second recent lecture addressing challenges to originalism. Last fall, Judge Pryor delivered the Joseph Story Lecture at the Heritage Foundation on "Politics and the Rule of Law," in which he responded to calls for a "common good originalism." As one might suspect, Judge Pryor is not interested in these reformulations, and would prefer continued adherence to the real thing.
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“Replace “common good” with “human dignity” and Vermeule’s living common goodism sounds a lot like Brennan’s living constitutionalism. Indeed, the difference between Brennan’s living constitutionalism and Vermeule’s living common goodism consists mainly in their differing substantive moral beliefs; in practice, the methodologies are the same.”
These are two of the better sentences I have read in the last decade or so.
IANAL. This seems pretty obvious, but it also seems obvious why it comes up over and over again: the law itself tries to regulate morality. Laws ought to be limited to “don’t hurt people and don’t take their stuff”, of which the second part is just a subset of the first.
Laws make mistakes:
* They regulate self-harm (tobacco, alcohol, drugs, sex).
* They throw in so much quibbly legalese that people look for loopholes which engender further quibbly legalase. Thou shalt not steal, embezzle, swipe, shoplist, carjack, hijack, pick pockets …. and then someone is busted for purloining and let off because “purloin” is not in the law. Pretty soon it’s full of rarely used words that few people understand and even fewer agree on, and we’re off to the races with penumbras and emanations.
“his view is being taken seriously by at least some law students”
Originalists should start reversing some “living constitution” cases. Not a single major Warren Court case has been reversed. Roe and Casey remain “law” too.
Vermule’s arguments won’t get traction with law students if originalism is seen as actually making a difference.
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Bobby just can’t wait until uncounseled juveniles are executed for non-homicide offenses after a “trial” where inculpatory evidence was illegally seized and exculpatory evidence was deliberately suppressed by the state.
Confusing is and ought, as always.
The fact that a constitutional interpretation might allow a bad policy in some locale has precisely zero relevance to whether that constitutional interpretation is correct.
Unless of course we adopt living constitutionalism or common good. Which we have done, arguably.
If the constitution allows the government to abuse its citizens with zero recourse then maybe that’s a shitty interpretation to begin with.
Or maybe it’s a shitty constitution that should be amended?
You don’t make a bad constitution good by lying about what it means. You end up with a bad constitution AND bad judges that way.
Why assume that you can get judges to lie about what the Constitution means, and expect them to only lie when it’s a good idea?
That’s a big part of my disagreement with ‘living’ constitutionalism: The supposed virtues of the policy positions advocated aside, to have a system of living constitutionalism, you have to staff the government with people who are comfortable with living constitutionalism, and out the window goes any chance of honest government.
Because living constitutionalism is a policy of telling noble lies about the meaning of the law, and noble liars are just liars.
The usual reply to that point is that the Constitution is impossible to amend.
The answer is that maybe it’s just impossible to amend in the ways the people claiming that want, and they should perhaps concentrate on persuading people to agree with them about what amendments are needed, rather than persuading them that the amendments aren’t needed.
It’s not impossible, but it cannot be taken on your feeling along that amendment is the only way to change how the Constitution is read, especially where it’s ambiguous, as in what the right to counsel means operationally.
If amendment isn’t impossible, what’s the excuse for pursuing constitutional change any other way?
Incremental change is impracticable with continual, small amendments, yet that flexibility is called for in a the non-determinative framework the Constitution is written as.
To paraphrase a Justice in days of yore, let us not forget this is a Constitution we are expounding, not a statute.
You’re making the Constitution so flexible it becomes useless.
Governments don’t need constitutions to empower them, they need constitutions to restrain them. You make them this flexible, and flexed by officers of the government itself, they stop restraining.
The whole POINT of having a constitution is that, if the government wants more power than it’s been given, it has to go to the people and ask for it, not just give that power to itself. But that’s what living constitutionalism has accomplished: Congress and the President want a new power, who do they ask? The states, the people?
No, they ask the judges they themselves selected. And typically get it, even if the states would have said no.
You’re excluding the middle. We have lots of common law areas, and nowhere is the law so flexible it is useless.
Other countries have a common law constitution. I think Israel is one of them. They have not fallen to anarchy.
Actually, Baud argues *we are one of them* and have been from the beginning, with maybe 3 excursions.
I know you are not a fan of our current jurisprudence, but I don’t think you believe our Constitution became useless basically from the moment of it’s inception.
If you do, well, that’s pretty radical.
No, Sarcastro, I don’t think it became useless at the moment of its adoption. Living constitutionalism, as we know it today, appeared during the FDR administration, over a century after the Constitution was adopted.
Baude sees history differently.
He points to common law jurisprudence – i.e. relying on precedents and not going back to the text every time – applying to constitutional cases from the beginning. Which under your definition is living constitutionalism.
FDR, eh? That’s not a common choice. Seems like you found the first outcome you didn’t like, and pinned living constitutionalism there.
Brett, I’d say you’re about a generation off – goes back to the Progressive Era.
“Confusing is and ought, as always.”
He presented it as an “is,” but if you don’t think Bob believes it’s also an “ought,” I have some priceless NFTs to sell you.
Trump blew it by not putting Pryor on the Supreme Court when he had the chances.
Yup. In place of Kavanagh.
I’m sure that the GOP wouldn’t have supported him as he is soft on pedophiles. /s
The text of the Constitution’s preamble does seem to indicate why the document was ordained and established:
(1) to form a more perfect Union
(2) establish Justice
(3) insure domestic Tranquility
(4) provide for the common defense
(5) promote the general Welfare
(6) secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
I don’t think any of these principles need to be “read into” the document, since they are literally in it. Change “common good-ism” to “general welfare-ism” and your a textualist.
The problem with that is the Preamble is not in and of itself operative law. The actual body of the Constitution pretty much lays out how those 6 points are achieved.
Promote the General Welfare is not a Constitutional blank check to rule however you please to achieve a desired end.
QBT, in that list there is one big stumbling block. It is the question what the word, “Liberty,” means. For the founders—which is to say the originalist meaning—”Liberty,” meant rule by a sovereign People empowered to establish government at pleasure, and to rule on majoritarian principles.
That should not be in doubt. The historical record is all but perfectly clear. But a notable fraction of American people alive today have been taught otherwise (a Lockean interpretation, based on the notion of natural rights, which has been favored by Southern Civil War apologists)—and joined by others who object that popular sovereignty is incompatible with libertarianism—an ideology which they mistakenly take to have originalist relevance to American constitutionalism.
So there is a good deal of doubt in fact, whether warranted by history or not.
Bullshit
Nope. You’ve been told repeatedly how you’ve misread the historical record. For the founders, that was how they got liberty; it was not the meaning of liberty.
Nieporent, what do you say is the alternative meaning of the founders’ liberty? Please write it down. I plan to show the bystanders here that you are mistaken.
Thomas Jefferson: “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”
John Adams: “I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”
Thomas Paine: “Liberty is the power to do everything that does not interfere with the rights of others: Thus, the exercise of the natural rights of every individual has no limits save those that assure to other members of society the enjoyment of the same rights.”
Readers mindful of history would do well to Google the 3 quotes which Bellmore presents above. In full context, they are texts which better support my argument on the meaning of liberty than any libertarian meaning. But the context is also questionable. Jefferson and Adams are writing almost 40 years after the Declaration, in response to questions framed by someone not a founder. Paine writes about the French Revolution, and in parts which Bellmore chose not to quote says this:
The national sovereignty is one, indivisible, imprescriptible and inalienable.
It resides essentially in the entire people, and each citizen has an equal right to concur in its exercise.
No partial assembly of citizens and no individual, can be invested with this sovereignty, or can exercise any authority or fulfill any public function without the formal delegation of the law.
And this:
A people has always the right to review, reform and change its constitution. One generation has not the right to subject future generations to its laws; and all heredity in public employments is absurd and tyrannical.
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare’, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a
metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” Madison
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.”
James Madison, again
What I consistently see is that the supposed objectivity of originalism is ephemeral at best. Judicial interpretation is different from man to man. And to the same man at different times. Words are just words ultimately. And have no meaning other than what we give them.
The position that there is not meaning behind, beneath, & in between the actual text is a basic misunderstanding of how language actually works. Usually with an agenda.
And have no meaning other than what we give them.
Which is an awfully slippery slope. Which we’re still going down, and gaining speed.
If you want to know what interpretative method the Court used in reaching its judgment, read what the dissent says about the majority opinion. So if I want to know if Heller is an Originalist decision, I should look at what Stevens, in his dissent, says about the decision. That makes perfect sense.
Both the majority and minority in Heller claimed to be practicing originalism. Neither actually were.
But you can look at the majority opinion and dissents in Dred Scott, and by looking at the reasoning, see whether they were actually practicing it. You can seen that Taney relies on naked assertion, while Curtis provides evidence of original meaning through practice at the time.
Making a judgement is ultimately subjective.
“Justice Curtis, like the courts that later rejected Riggs, repudiated the approach that would allow judges to read unmentioned exceptions into unambiguous texts.”
Glad to hear Pryor is against the non-delegation doctrine, the major questions doctrine, qualified immunity, state sovereign immunity, the congruent and proportional test for Section 5/Section 2 enforcement, most federal arbitration act jurisprudence…
Dred Scott isn’t originalist. It just used a bunch of methods self-professed originalists also like to use to reach a result.
I had a detailed comment about Benjamin Curtis, Pryor’s go-to Justice against bad jurisprudence, but my comment got digitally eaten.
What I was basically going to suggest was that maybe Curtis wasn’t as proslavery as Taney. As Chris Rock put it in a different context – what does Curtis want, a cookie? He’s not supposed to be as bad as Taney.
Over the course of his career, Curtis’ avowed positivism led him more often to proslavery than antislavery results. He can’t wash himself clean with one dissent, no matter how famous.
And of course in the end he *did* pour moral content into his interpretation of the law – he was “pro-Union,” which in context means keeping the Union together by appeasing the South with constitutionally-dubious proslavery measures. He disembarked from that train when he thought Taney had gone too far.
So a debate between Taney trying to impose *bad* morality on the Constitution versus Curtis disavowing (implausibly) any desire to impose morality on the law. There’s a debate for the ages, and it sets the terms for all future constitutional debates! /sarc
To Curtis, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was constitutional, but the Emancipation Proclamation was unconstitutional.
A jurist to be emulated!
That’s what you’d expect of a justice who was ruling on the law, not on what they thought was good policy.
The fugitive slave act had this Constitutional text going for it: “No person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.”
The emancipation proclamation had bupkis.
The fugitive slave clause said nothing about abolishing trial by jury, habeas corpus, and the judicial power of U. S. courts, all of which the Act of 1850 did. Curtis put up with the 1850 act because his sponsor Webster liked it and they both thought it necessary to appease the South.
A *defender* of the Act’s constitutionality, in 1921, defended it in terms of the acceptability of the administrative state:
“The people of the United States have travelled far on the road to government by administrative commissions since the middle of the last century. So long as they acquiesce in the extraordinary determinations reached by administrative boards regarding rights of citizenship, they are likely to look with less and less passion upon the controversy which culminated in the assault upon the constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Acts. Measured by the developments of a half-century and interpreted in the light of reason, these acts must be declared constitutional in every particular.”
Allen Johnson, “The Constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Acts,”
The Yale Law Journal , Vol. 31, No. 2 (Dec., 1921), pp. 161-182 at 182.
If you like the federal administrative state, you’ll *love* the Act of 1850.
I’m not going to claim perfection for Curtis, but the fact remains that the fugitive slave act had a hell of a lot more constitutional basis than the emancipation proclamation, for all that it had hellishly less moral basis.
If I want judges to rule on the basis of the law, not their personal conception of justice, I have to accept that when the law is unjust, there will be unjust rulings.
It’s the cost of assuring just rulings when we manage to make the law just.
I’m suggesting that upholding the statute means ignoring the right to trial by jury in personal replevin actions (7th Amendment), the right to habeas corpus, and the requirement for federal judicial power to be exercised by judges.
If it weren’t for the felt need to appease the South and “save the union,” and frankly if the targets of the law weren’t black, there would have been no desperate effort by Curtis and others to defend the statute.
When the Democrats stop making things up as they go along I will take Pryor seriously — unilateral disarmament is surrender.
Pssst. Republicans have been making things up the whole time. Don’t need to give yourself intellectual cover.
Another conservative endorses throwing away his principles because the libs made him do it.
Use your “principles” against you and you scream bloody murder — what exactly does that say about your “principles” now?????
Except those aren’t my principles you’re throwing away – they’re yours.
Or rather things you liked to call principles, once.
Let me keep going at Curtis.
“If it can be shown by anything in the Constitution itself that, when it confers on Congress the power to make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory belonging to the United States, the exclusion *or the allowance* of slavery was excepted” [etc.] [amphasis added]
As a clever advocate trying to put something over on the rubes, Curtis attempts by assertion, not argument, to invalidate the Republican platform of the previous year [and also of 1860], which, based on the Due Process Clause, “den[ied] the authority of Congress, of a Territorial Legislation, of any individual, or association of individuals, to give legal existence to Slavery in any Territory of the United States.”
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1856
Curtis saw no need even to engage with this contention, failing to explain how condemning a territorial resident to slavery, without trial, was consistent with the Fifth Amendment right of every person to due process before being deprived of liberty. The Fifth Amendment was a step up from Magna Carta, which protected only free men – here all persons are protected. So presumably the change from free men to persons means *something.*
Maybe there was a way for Curtis to argue his way around all that, but he didn’t, substituting assertion for argument, as he did with the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 before joining the Court. In the latter case, his Faneuil Hall speech didn’t explain how the Act was consistent with the Constitution, he mainly focused on his claim that the opponents of the act were either rebels or perjurers.
Does Pryor really intend to rely on this slaver and avowed positivist?
Maybe it is me, but I look at the intellectual debate that Judge Pryor is engaging in, and find it encouraging. Why? How so? We should question assumptions, interpretative frameworks. It (the willingness to engage in intellectual debate) is fundamentally a healthy sign that our Federal Judiciary is alive and well. I’d like to see more of this kind of intellectual engagement.
Some of the comments here are just…..sclerotic. And reek of presentism.
It’s myopic to cheer at just the presence of debate without looking at the underlying substance being argued.
And the substance here is basically lets have a Catholic theocracy:
Common-good constitutionalism is also not legal liberalism or libertarianism. Its main aim is certainly not to maximize individual autonomy or to minimize the abuse of power (an incoherent goal in any event), but instead to ensure that the ruler has the power needed to rule well.
Constitutional words such as freedom and liberty need not be given libertarian readings; instead they can be read in light of a better conception of liberty as the natural human capacity to act in accordance with reasoned morality. [Cite to Vatican encyclical]
So too should the libertarian assumptions central to free-speech law and free-speech ideology—that government is forbidden to judge the quality and moral worth of public speech, that “one man’s vulgarity is another’s lyric,” and so on—fall under the ax.
No, this is not a healthy debate to have.
Citation:
Beyond Originalism
The dominant conservative philosophy for interpreting the Constitution has served its purpose, and scholars ought to develop a more moral framework.
By Adrian Vermeule
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/common-good-constitutionalism/609037/
I beg to differ. Understanding liberty is a very healthy debate.
The notion that humans should act in accordance with reasoned morality, and that liberty is the means by which they may do so, is not something that should be rejected out of hand, despite its association with Catholicism. For one thing, it long pre-dates Christianity, going back to Aristotle (and some of his predecessors).
You abstract the terms of the debate to ignore it’s substance.
Thus could someone advocating for Holocaust denial be indulging in a healthy debate about historical sourcing in wartime.
Did you miss the curtailing of free speech?
I don’t care how long a legacy this reasoned morality can point to, it’s not part of the Constitution, and it’s as outcome oriented as any paradigm that relies on such unintelligible inkblots as ‘reason.’ Everyone thinks they’re using reason; that’s an awful lodestar to use.
We are talking about two different things. I agree that the Constitution was not written to form our government in the image of Aristotle and Aquinas. That is why I praised Pryor’s trenchant analysis in the first post.
But that does not mean that understanding what liberty is, and why it is good, is unimportant.
Sure – coming from the liberal side I often cite FDR’s formulation of liberty; it is a good debate to have.
But the mere fact of debate is not enough to decide if something good is happening – you need to look at the thesis being debated.
And here, it is a very bad thesis that Pryor is arguing against. Which makes this not an occasion for celebration, IMO.
I know there are some that say all viewpoints are on the table as we reason together. I don’t think that’s right – without some policing of the bounds of legitimacy, the marketplace of ideas becomes a bazaar at best and an avenue for radicalization at worst.
If Vermeule’s specific policy ideas were implemented…well, we’d have pretty much the same federal administrative state we have now. In the field of free speech we’d probably turn the clock back to the jurisprudence of Felix Frankfurter and Truman’s Justices.
These are bad things from my viewpoint. I don’t think the common good requires them. In fact, it’s even possible the common good requires originalism, but I won’t commit myself. As long as a school of interpretation respects the Art. V. amendment process I’d listen to it.
Progressives of, say, a decade ago, might object to Vermeule’s comparatively restrictive attitude to free speech (though it seems we’re going back to Frankfurter and the Truman justices in this respect). They’d cheer the support of the administrative state.
So we come to the parts of Vermeule which progressives hate – the right to life of the unborn, the denial of gay and trans rights. Again, this would turn the clock back to, say, the FDR administration.
With so many ideas which progressives either support or used to support, he doesn’t seem a fit subject for a progressive ideological *cordon sanitaire* – like Cass Sunstein, they wouldn’t want to abandon such a zealous supporter of their beloved administrative state.
Read the article, not your deep state fantasies.
Your citation to the politics 70 years ago doesn’t prove much about it being a good thing.
Could you be a tad more specific about what kind of deep state fantasies you’re attributing to me?
As usual, I love reading your messages to be surprised at learning about the positions I hold.
A request for supporting evidence is to you what garlic is to a vampire.
If Vermeule’s specific policy ideas were implemented…well, we’d have pretty much the same federal administrative state we have now.
The article is explicitly talking about changes to the status quo. You are saying all the bad changes are already happening, and all the good ones would own the libs.
Which is a pretty fanciful analysis.
My supporting statement was to read the linked article:
This is not the occasion to offer a bill of particulars about how constitutional law might change under this approach, but a few broad strokes can be sketched. The Court’s jurisprudence on free speech, abortion, sexual liberties, and related matters will prove vulnerable under a regime of common-good constitutionalism. The claim, from the notorious joint opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, that each individual may “define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life” should be not only rejected but stamped as abominable, beyond the realm of the acceptable forever after. So too should the libertarian assumptions central to free-speech law and free-speech ideology—that government is forbidden to judge the quality and moral worth of public speech, that “one man’s vulgarity is another’s lyric,” and so on—fall under the ax. Libertarian conceptions of property rights and economic rights will also have to go, insofar as they bar the state from enforcing duties of community and solidarity in the use and distribution of resources.
That’s explicitly not the ‘the same federal administrative state we have now.’
Go back to WW2 all you want, this is radical stuff, and too many conservatives seem into it for the sake of radicalism.
I’m still a bit vague on which deep state fantasies I hold.
Your supporting evidence was about Vermeule, not about what you claimed were my “deep state fantasies.”
“The Court’s jurisprudence on free speech, abortion, sexual liberties, and related matters will prove vulnerable”
I’m fairly sure I said his views entail such results.
“Libertarian conceptions of property rights and economic rights will also have to go”
You think that’s a bad thing?
“Go back to WW2 all you want, this is radical stuff”
Or to be more precise, which of these radical ideas would Truman’s justices have rejected?
Or is radicalism simply a moving target, to be defined as you are pleased to define it?
I laid out the quote of all these radical changes, which you say are actually current practice by the Admin state. That’s not true.
I don’t care what the Court in Truman’s time would say, this is radical stuff if instantiated right now. Like a lot of stuff from the 1950s would be radical if suddenly required now.
Quit trying to bring in collateral nonsense.
He defends the administrative state pretty much as it exists now.
“all these radical changes, which you say are actually current practice by the Admin state. That’s not true.”
Did I say that Casey and Cohen were part of the modern administrative state? Or is that one more of those things that I *really* meant, and only you are discerning enough to see it.
Of course I said he’d roll back current free-speech doctrine. I even expressed disapproval. And yet you think I was attributing that to the *current* administrative state?
Try to keep up, man – I was comparing Vermeule’s free-speech, abortion, etc. doctrines to the New Deal and Truman eras. Those same eras where everything was so radical and un-modern.
“Like a lot of stuff from the 1950s would be radical if suddenly required now.”
Like group-libel laws (hate-speech laws in modern terms)?
“collateral nonsense”
Like the Holocaust?
You don’t understand how hypotheticals work? I didn’t bring up the Holocaust.
I was comparing Vermeule’s free-speech, abortion, etc. doctrines to the New Deal and Truman eras. Those same eras where everything was so radical and un-modern.
You don’t appear to have any thesis at all. You’re not defending this constitutionalism, you’re just rambling how this or that element would have been fine 80 years ago? Who the heck cares?
“I didn’t bring up the Holocaust.”
Could you clarify that?
“Who the heck cares?”
Anyone who doesn’t automatically assume that FDR, Harry Truman, and Supreme Court justices had such extreme views as to put them out of bounds for any rational debate?
OMG who cares what happened, like, a million years ago, or eighty years, or whatever?
Just to be clear, could clarify which “deep-state fantasies” I hold, or have you ceased to care about that, too?
Conservative Christians have almost exactly the same view of human reason. And have found a book they use instead. Ya’ll just have sacred legal texts & commentary. And Objectivity. Ha ha.
So Sarcastr0…Maybe you can tell me who exactly determines whether the substance of an idea is beyond the pale for healthy debate (your term)? Using what judgment criterion?
If our judges cannot debate ideas openly, then who can? Politicians only?
You know it when you see it.
I agree that interpreting the Constitution according to the common good doesn’t entail the powerful administrative state Vermeule supports, and which he defended in a book co-authored with the liberal Cass Sunstein.
Also, looking at the 1st Amendment according to the common good involves bearing in mind the difference between political debate in England (where there’s a danger of stirring up the people against an unelected monarch who can’t be peacefully voted out of office) and conducting debate in the U. S., where all legislative and executive officers can be removed by peaceful elections. In the latter situation, free speech and press simply informs the voters in peacefully exercising their powers, as opposed to England where there was the (non-hypothetical) possibility of stirring up rebellion against His Majesty George III.
So is the common good to blame?
I don’t know – I find the phrase to be remarkably meaningless on it’s face.
But the implementation being pushed is theocratic, censorious, and authoritarian.
If he wasn’t authoritarian, he wouldn’t have co-authored a book with Sunstein defending the administrative state.
Um, OK.
You can keep trying to make this about Sunstein, but it’s not.
As usual, an excellent, accurate paraphrase of what I said – I couldn’t have put it better myself! /sarc
Based on what you said above, Sunstein is collaborating with someone you compared to a Holocaust denier.
No, I applied Ridgeway’s logic to Holocaust denial and got an absurd result.
I don’t like common good constitutionalism, but I don’t think it’s the Holocaust; read better.
I think it’s fine Pryor is addressing this; I think it’s awful it’s there to be addressed.
Quit trying to change the subject – this guy’s jurisprudence sucks, it explicitly overthrows any semblance of principled conservative jurisprudence, and a bunch on the right are ready to embrace the authoritarianism because they courts have not delivered their conservative constitutional utopia yet.
It’s yet another indictment of how thin the conservative ideals they can’t stop yelling they have are in far too many conservatives.
“this guy’s jurisprudence sucks”
I recall saying that much of his jurisprudence was bad.
“Quit trying to change the subject”
You must really dislike the fact that Sunstein not only conversed civilly with Vermule but coauthored a book with him – if you so badly want me to get off that subject, it must hurt your case.
As I said, you compared Vermeule to a Holocaust denier. You wish to reap the benefits of violating Godwin’s law while being indignant at anyone calling you on your hyperbole.
Just like Stalin.
I’m simply comparing you to Stalin for the purpose of illustrating how hyperbolic you are, I’m not actually comparing you to Stalin. 🙂
You failed to read what I wrote about the Holocaust, it seems. It wasn’t a comparison to Vermuele, nor was it s simile or even an analogy.
Try again.
“You abstract the terms of the debate to ignore it’s [sic] substance.
“Thus could someone advocating for Holocaust denial be indulging in a healthy debate about historical sourcing in wartime.”
You just had to get the Holocaust in there somewhere!
The two words “common good” have been the excuse for unlimited government expansion.
The two words “commerce clause” have been twisted to mean unlimited power to tax.
Neither interpretation is even remotely logical.
“failure of Originalism to deliver the goods”
Unless originalists cut back on stare decisis, Vermule’s views will get more and more interest.
Nope. Not absurd at all. That’s the logical
Consequence of eliminating Warren Court precedent. I didn’t pick that scenario by accident. I can point to Warren Court precedent either directly on point or that if reversed would undo modern precedent on the issue.
And since I’ve asked Bob at least ten times if this is what he wants, and he has demurred each time by refusing to answer, I have to assume this is a correct summation of the world he would like to live in.
And if they do that, they’ll prove liberals right that originalism wasn’t a serious jurisprudence but pseudo-scholarly nonsense designed to advance current conservative political goals. So by all means, have at it, it’s not like there’s a huge mountain of evidence of would-be proponents of common good constitutionalism claiming originalism was the only legitimate method of interpreting the constitution.
Unless originalists cut back on stare decisis, Vermule’s views will get more and more interest.
That’s a pretty savage dig on originalism. Basically saying it’s only propaganda.
Unless originalists cut back on stare decisis,…
Wrong decisions are wrong — an originalist should overturn most if not all wrong decisions.
Unilateral disarmament is surrender.
No it’s not a slippery slope. That’s how law works. If you overturn Mapp: illegally seized evidence is admitted. (Although I suppose if you overturn Katz, a lot of searches/seizures won’t be illegal anymore). If you overturn Brady: the prosecutors get to suppress exculpatory evidence. If you overturn Trop v Dulles, there is no longer a proportionality principle or evolving standards of decent principle under the Eighth Amendment. Therefore that means Coker and Kennedy are wrong as well as Roper. So executions of juveniles for non-homicide offenses is permissible under the 8th.
And we all know how he feels about Gideon.
And no one has to answer hypos, this isn’t court or class. But I am going to draw a negative character inference if you never ever have a response to a scenario laid out before you in response to things you say. I mean it’s simple:
Him: get rid of Warren Court precedent!
Me: so you’re okay with (scenario that only could exist if Warren Court precedent didn’t exist)
Him: nothing
Me: I’ll take that as a yes.
Sure you can, Amendments are as much a part of the Constitution as the parts laid out in 1787, and Plessy definitely spits in the face of the 14th Amendment.
“Dred Scott was an Origionalist decision”
The Constitution does not say only whites can be citizens.
What utter garbage — the constitution has ALWAYS been colorblind no matter how much Democrats want it to be otherwise to match their racism de jour.
Not at all. Originalism, if followed, would require overturning vast swaths of “precedent.”
“Say the quiet part out loud” is Bob’s middle name.
1) Baude, an actual scholar in the area, disagrees.
2) If your version of originalism isn’t being followed, and your solution is to go embrace some other philosophy, that says quite a bit about your principles, no?
Strare is about judges not being judicial kings.
It is also about society functioning regularly, and not making radical jumps, but rather progressing incrementally.
And, finally, it was part of original intent the judiciary of England used Stare when the Founders modeled the judiciary after them!
But that was the original public meaning, as well as the clear intent of the drafters.
No.
[citation needed]
Can you elaborate? My impression was that his position was more or less the opposite. See, e.g. l, Originalism’s Bits, 20 Green Bag 2d 103 (2016).
“If your version of originalism isn’t being followed, and your solution is to go embrace some other philosophy, that says quite a bit about your principles, no?”
No, not necessarily.
As I’ve said before, it’s like if you were playing pool at a friend’s house and they have weird and different house rules.
Er, Originalism’s Bite.
From his Dissenting Opinions podcast, Baude believes that original public meaning – his preferred method of originalism that looks at what a contemporaneous attorney would see in the Constitution – includes common law as an aspect of constitutional interpretation.
While some precedents of the Warren Court specifically are discontinuities, meaning stare decisis may not apply, others are. (Notably, he thinks Gideon is one of the discontinuities, though he doesn’t like the result.)
Moreover, Baude believes in Constitutional Liquidation as an aspect of originalist interpretation, where some decisions that would otherwise have no foundation gain one merely by dint of longevity.
Even more over, Baude talks on his podcast about the 1980s originalism as not having much of a logical foundation, and being more about political cover for making unpopular legal realist results-oriented decisions. But he thinks that while the motive and doctrine were corrupt, the general purpose of looking to the drafters of the document was correct.
Bottom line, Baude explicitly declaims originalism as overturning vast swaths of “precedent.” Overturning some stuff, yeah. But his formulation is much less radical than the version most of the politicians who cite it would have you believe.
It is, in fact, an absurd response, for three reasons.
The first is that Bob from Ohio never specified that it was the criminal procedure holdings that they wanted to see overruled, and the given examples (Roe and Casey) would suggest those weren’t priorities.
Second, the Warren court precedents aren’t generally the real protections for the rights you’re incensed about, because American jurisdictions want to provide criminal defendants with more than the bare minimum of process they’re due. For instance, even though there’s no constitutional obligation to do so, every state has instituted discovery requirements that are broader than Brady, and it’s those requirements (which would, of course remain in place if Brady were overturned) that are usually the source of helpful evidence for criminal practitioners.
Third, however desirable these procedural rules are—hell, however desirable it is to enshrine them in the constitution—your parade of horrible doesn’t show that any of these decisions are actually correct.
And “read what I want to believe from Bob’s words” is Leo’s middle name.
I thought this was a law blog. Why are so many unserious comments made? Bob’s OBVIOUS point was that many decisions were made not with the philosophy of originalism, and those decisions would need to be overturned.
And yes, he’s right.
They were acting like kings in the first place. All current judges should do is recognize that, and remove the offending pieces of law.
I’m confused: was illegally seized evidence constitutional prior to Mapp?
The Supreme Court prohibited using illegally seized evidence in federal criminal cases in Weeks v. United States, 232 U.S. 383 (1914). It declined to apply that rule to state trials in Wolf v. Colorado, 338 U.S. 25 (1949).
It was admissible in court. Therefore it didn’t really matter if it was “constitutional” it could still be used to secure a conviction and take someone’s liberty. (Although as NaS points out there was previously an exclusionary rule in federal courts (but only in 1914). Mapp extended it to the states…where the vast majority of criminal process occurs.)
That’s not what he said.
Callahan, what do you think ‘Vermule’s views’ are?
“Colorblind”. Maybe you can give a think to whether the 3/5 of a person accounting had any racial tinge to it.
What you want is judges now to decide they’re so right, they can ignore all judges in the past. And by right, you mean agreeing with you.
And yet these king-like judges of the past are not so prideful – they note that those before them may have some wisdom in what they say and incorporate that into their judicial reasoning.
If anyone has a pride and abuse of power problem, it’s any judges that follow what you want them to do.
Yes, the comment relies on previous exchanges where Bob has evinced hostility to the idea of indigent defendants being provided with state-funded defense counsel.
1. He hates Gideon. He also doesn’t even like Powell v Alabama a pre-Warren court decision involving the right to counsel. He has admitted he doesn’t like Roper. He recently said “due process” can consist of “a bullet in the head” for Gitmo detainees.
And more importantly I’ve asked him. Repeatedly. He never ever clarifies which criminal decisions he wants to keep. This is a fair assumption.
2. We only had Warren court precedents because states weren’t doing those things. Florida didn’t have a right to counsel. Open discovery was only a very recent invention in many states and prosecutors are still fighting it. If we “overturn” Warren court precedent that means we are living in a world where those procedural protections don’t exist anymore and states aren’t providing them. So this is a real result that can happen.
3. So what? If you want to overturn decisions that means you want the results that come with them. That’s the only way you get a case to the court. Law isn’t a test or some game where you get the right answer just because. It impacts real people. If Gideon is overturned that’s because someone wants to deny an indigent defendant appointed counsel. If Mapp is overturned it’s because someone wants to admit evidence that everyone knows was seized illegally. If Brady is overturned it’s because prosecutors want to suppress exculpatory evidence.
Also Roe and Casey aren’t “Warren Court precedents” they’re Burger/Rehnquist court precedent. So if you want to overturn them…you don’t need to touch any Warren court precedent. But the fact that it’s specifically invoked means something else. What does he want to overturn?
…You think the Founders wanted black people in their Republic? Or indeed the American public at the time?
Because there’s a lot of pretty strong counterexamples to that.
Washington, Jefferson, Adams, all of the southern agrarian colonies…
The basic problem with originalism and stare decisis, is that originalism came to power too late.
Living constitutionalism held sway for too long, too many precedents contrary to original meaning accumulated, and originalists lack the nerve to overturn them. So you get doctrines like constitutional liquidation, in an effort to justify the failure of nerve.
Essentially, originalists such as Baude gradually succumb to the temptation to rationalize decisions contrary to originalism they haven’t the guts to overturn. But the appeal of originalism in the first place is the principled determination to say the law is what it was, and only changes via formal mechanisms; By making their peace with precedents contrary to their principles, they undermine the very reasons for anybody to take them seriously! It is quite clear to anyone attracted by originalism that these doctrines represent an abandonment of principle.
While the living constitutionalists have no such reluctance to overturn precedent, so whenever they’re in power, the changes continue to accumulate. This ratchet effect has long been noted, and means that the living constitutionalists will ALWAYS win in the end.
This leads to people who actually like the original Constitution, and oppose the living version, to give up on originalism as useless. What good are principles you’ll always find an excuse not to act on, even if they are good principles?
People like Baude, IOW, are responsible for the rise of common good constitutionalism. It’s their own refusal to take originalism seriously, and fight to overturn precedents contrary to it, that causes people to decide that the original constitution is dead, and give up on trying to restore it in favor of just adopting the living constitutionalists’ own weapons, since at least those WORK.
“gain one merely by dint of longevity”
And you and he would accuse others of idiosyncratic application of reading and applying the actual Constitutional text (or absence thereof)?
Saying lets throw away the procedures the Founders intended in order to save originalism is destroy the village in order to save it logic.
You want the Constitution of the late 1700s plus amendments to be instantiated inviolate, *even if the Founders never intended that and expected the interpretation to evolve*
This is not originalism, it’s pure outcome-oriented anti-liberalism.
People like Baude, IOW, are responsible for the rise of common good constitutionalism.
Actually, people have agency, and if they choose to abandon their principles, it’s not Baude’s fault for not being outcome-oriented enough, it’s on those people for choosing nihilism because they can’t live in a world where they don’t get their way.
“*even if the Founders never intended that and expected the interpretation to evolve*”
No, they expected the Constitution to ‘evolve’, by means of amendment. Not by keeping the words unaltered, and having judges declare that their meaning had mysteriously changed, but somehow the new meaning was binding in place of the old.
they expected the Constitution to ‘evolve’, [only] by means of amendment.
This is an unsupported assertion. And Baude’s originalist scholarship disagrees, at least as I read it.
If they expected the Constitution to evolve in a common law manner, why include Article V? Why USE Article V?
The determination to use living constitutionalism instead of amendment wasn’t from founding era practice, Sarcastro. It came about during FDR’s administration, to justify letting the federal government exercise powers it hadn’t been delegated, without the necessity of amendments the states probably would have rejected.
That’s why originalism is of relatively recent vintage: It is a reaction to living constitutionalism, and prior to that movement arising to justify FDR’s usurpations, the practices it describes would have just been called “interpretation”.
Sarcastr0, are you really willing to defend Taney’s methodology if not his conclusion?
juris imprudent – I’m not an originalist, so no.
Brett – continuous change via common law processes, discontinuous change via the amendments process.
Baude notes that where common law processes resulted in discontinuous change, he believes stare is weakened, and arguments going back to the original public meaning should carry the day. He believes that’s mostly Warren precedents, but not all of them.
I disagree, but YMMV.
Sarcastr0, Taney was no originalist. So yes, you would be arguing that his methodology was sound. In fact, he searched many sources outside the Constitution to support the position he had going in to the case.
I prefer McLean’s dissent.
From the dissent to Dred Scott:
” To determine whether any free persons, descended from Africans held in slavery, were citizens of the United States under the Confederation, and consequently at the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, it is only necessary to know whether any such persons were citizens of either of the States under the Confederation, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.
Of this there can be no doubt. At the time of the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, all free native-born inhabitants of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and North Carolina, though descended from African slaves, were not only citizens of those States, but such of them as had the other necessary qualifications possessed the franchise of electors, on equal terms with other citizens.
The Supreme Court of North Carolina, in the case of the State v. Manuel, (4 Dev. and Bat., 20,) has declared the law of that State on this subject, in terms which I believe to be as sound law in the other States I have enumerated, as it was in North Carolina.
“According to the laws of this State,” says Judge Gaston, in delivering the opinion of the court, “all human beings within it, who are not slaves, fall within one of two classes. Whatever distinctions may have existed in the Roman laws between citizens and free inhabitants, they are unknown to our institutions. Before our Revolution, all free persons born within the dominions of the King of Great Britain, whatever their color or complexion, were native-born British subjects — those born out of his allegiance were aliens. Slavery did not exist in England, but it did in the British colonies. Slaves were not in legal parlance persons, but property. The moment the incapacity, the disqualification of slavery, was removed, they became persons, and were then either British subjects, or not British subjects, according as they were or were not born within the allegiance of the British King. Upon the Revolution, no other change took place in the laws of Norht Carolina than was consequent on the transition from a colony dependent on a European King, to a free and sovereign State. Slaves remained slaves. British subjects in North Carolina became North Carolina freemen. Foreigners, until made members of the State, remained aliens. Slaves, manumitted here, became freemen, and therefore, if born within North Carolina, are citizens of North Carolina, and all free persons born within the State are born citizens of the State. The Constitution extended the elective franchise to every freeman who had arrived at the age of twenty-one, and paid a public tax; and it is a matter of universal notoriety, that, under it, free persons, without regard to color, claimed and exercised the franchise, until it was taken from free men of color a few years since by our amended Constitution.” ”
THAT is originalist reasoning, and it was the dissent.
Maybe you should try reading it, if you need an answer to that question.
This does not appear to be reasoning relying on original intent – the existence of freedmen does not obviate the existence of slavery as a condoned institution.
And there are plenty of examples of the Founders writing about the superiority of their own race in governance &c. Adams and Washington were the notable exceptions, and Washington did not practice what he preached.
‘Negro’ is not a magic word, required for the constitution to include race-based slavery in it’s structure.
The drafters of the Constitution went out of their way to avoid mentioning race. If anything, rather than being racially “tinted”, the 3/5ths clause is racially “bleached”.
And, of course, the 3/5th clause doesn’t apply to “negroes”, it applies to people who aren’t free. Which is a rather important caveat, since free blacks counted as 5/5ths, just like free whites.
Original practice is certainly pretty good evidence of original intent.
The existence of freedmen treated as citizens refutes the claim that they thought that “only whites can be citizens.”
That’s…not a good story for anyone trying to claim the Constitution is color-blind.
In the Constitution yes. But they were hardly race-blind. The early censuses categorized, free white males, free white females, other free persons (hmm, wonder who that would be) and slaves (which probably can’t all be black given the number of them in the northern states – only MA and the ME district had none from 1790 on).
It’s an important caveat, if you pay no attention to what was going on at the time of drafting.
Good evidence, sure, but not determinative. Not unless you want to instantiate the Alien and Sedition Acts.
You don’t get to cherry pick your sources of original intent to align with what you want – you need to grapple with what the Founders wrote and did. And what was the legal practice at the time as well (hint: blacks were continually under threat of being enslaved, regardless of their current status.)
None of this is about the text – it is all about where there is ambiguity.
There is no ambiguity in Griswold, just as there was not in Dred Scott or say Buck v. Bell. Such decisions were reached without reliance on any particular Constitutional construction. In fact, the reliance on other-than-the-Constitution is exactly what characterizes them. Thus inferring into the Constitution things not written in it.
Griswold is about the ambiguity of ‘right to counsel.’
Dred Scott is about citizenship, and actually personhood. AS is Buck v. Bell.
You and I may not like that, but these things are ambiguous.
Griswold was not about right to counsel – it was the privacy of the marital relationship and contraception (which CT law forbade).
Taney’s opinion argued that Scott was not a citizen, McLean’s dissent argues that was never a merit of the case, it was an a-priori assumption about a colored person. Just as Taney’s assertion about invalidating the Missouri Compromise was not an issue necessary to address the laws of Illinois, the Wisconsin territory and the state of Missouri (wherein the State SC had broken well established precedent to reach the finding it did in Scott v. Emerson).
Buck was about the authority of the state to abuse an individual. We can all be glad that Holmes pithy dismissal is no longer valid law. It never should have been in the first place.
From Oyez on Buck
A Virginia law allowed for the sexual sterilization of inmates of institutions to promote the “health of the patient and the welfare of society.”
Where you get question of citizenship (versus question of competence) is a mystery.
Personhood. As I said above, Buck v. Bell is about personhood. As is Dred Scott.
Under the Constitution before the Civil War, there was not equal protection of the laws to black people.
This included stuff like the constant danger of being reenslaved because they looked like slaves even if they weren’t. This was not an uncommon event, either by not having the right papers or by white people just saying they had run away, or by operation of the law.
You want modern sensibilities via originalist methods. Or, rather, you want originalism as cover for constitutionalizing the policies you want, but not to include anything that might be to spicy. Good luck with that.
You know I thought you would defend Taney’s method but not his conclusion, but it seems you think Taney’s conclusion had merit as well. That was a popular opinion among slaveholders and other bigots, and it was controversial at the time. Hard to believe it isn’t a controversial opinion now.
Missouri law at the time was “once free, always free” and the SC of the state flat out ignored that (because it had a pro-slavery majority) – so yay for living constitutionalism and creative law interpretation and rule of men. That’s exactly the side of history you are standing on, though why baffles me other than you insist on being contrarian.
It’s better evidence than Taney had, who simply asserted that blacks could not be citizens, and ignored that they in fact had been.
From an originalist point of view, there’s plenty of written sources about intent and broad practice.
Maybe the existence of freed blacks overcome that evidence, maybe it doesn’t.
But the case is hardly clear.
Yes, the people who drafted the 3/5ths clause were perfectly aware that most slaves were black. (Not all at that time, just most.)
They were equally aware that not all blacks were slaves, and so “unfree” ≠ “black”.
JB is attempting to erase the word choice they deliberately made, and turn the 3/5ths clause into something that it wasn’t… while imply it was the opposite of what it was, an incentive to free slaves.
All slaves being black is more important in terms of that ‘slavery’ referred to than not all blacks being slaves.
For very specific definitions of citizen, and in mostly exceptional cases.
And in contravention of the writings of many of the Founders.
I don’t think it at all an implausible reading that the Constitution of the 1780s was not intended to include blacks in its rights and protections.
But so what? That’s a problem for originalists to tie themselves in knots over.
Um, if you killed Griswold v. CT (Douglas for the Warren Court, with a wild side of concurrences and dissents), the core of Roe goes away.
Bullshit, because you are imputing to them things they did not write into the Constitution. As though only the South had a say on it.
The South, which included Jefferson, and Madison, and Washington. Which got the Senate created. Which moved the Capitol’s location.
How many slaveholders need to sign the Constitution before you get critical mass as to what color Republic was envisioned?
I’m nor saying the Constitution is a corrupt document to be ripped out or anything – I’m taking Frederick Douglas’ formulation of the promise of America, and it’s Constitution, being something that was never lived up to. But we’re working on it! Arc of the universe, etc.
You sound an awful lot like Calhoun you know that?
I cite Frederick Douglass, you say I sound like Calhoun.
But I guess you’re tired of trying to engage, and so just go for baseless insults.
Lame.
You can’t cite Douglass approvingly when you simultaneously argue that what is there (or isn’t) can be re-imagined at will. Douglass takes the text at it’s plain meaning.
Calhoun, and Garrison, took tangents that argued what was written was not what it meant.
Again, all slaves were NOT black at the time the Constitution was adopted. Just most.
The best argument for your side here is that the condition of slavery wasn’t inherited for whites. Otherwise it could largely be the same. But the fact remains that the 3/5th clause counted as unfree ANYONE who was unfree, regardless of race, and counted as free anyone who WAS free, again regardless of race.
So the 3/5ths clause was absolutely about whether you were free, NOT whether you were black. If it had been otherwise, it could never have functioned as an incentive to discourage slavery!
Most is being really generous. It was the vast majority. By that time the entire institution had become racialized.
The 3/5 clause technically allows white slavery, but it’s intent when written was applying to black slavery. Which is what slavery was back then, whatever few exceptions you might dig up excepted.
Same argument as ‘there were black Confederates so therefore it wasn’t about slavery.’ A few exceptions do not change the enterprise.
No. Stop with the lost causism. Slavery was purely racialized by the late 18th century. Stop trying to pretend that indentured servitude — which itself barely existed by the time of the constitution — was the same thing as slavery.
Hahaha, as though the northern half of the country wasn’t agrarian as well? The commerce sector in the ports and cities (Boston and Philadelphia dwarfing NYC), and no manufacturing to speak of.
Jefferson’s rhetoric about the yeoman farmer was well pitched to northern sensibilities, not southern.
Conservative argued for a long time that originalism was not just the right way, but the only legitimate way.
That makes you pool rules analogy another telling dig on how shallow a lot of originalists really are, for all their bluster.
The north did commerce, the south did crops.
Why are you working so hard to defend the South of the 1780s? Yeah, the north did not have a monopoly on virtue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeuaTpH6Ck0).
But the South’s big issue was slavery at the time (and for the next 80 years); that’s pretty hard to deny.
I haven’t defended the South once, let alone a decision that came from the express intent of putting the slavery question to rest (by judicial fiat). You’re the one defending Taney and his decision making. I am pointing out that that was the first stab at a living constitution and that Taney’s reasoning and evidence were as deficient as can be imagined and grossly lacking in Constitutional grounding. He wrote it out of pure malice against blacks.
The American System did not exist in the late 18th century, it came some 40 years later (though it might have come sooner if Hamilton had survived). The commerce of the founding era was imports and shipping primarily – it was only when they started manufacturing that the clamor for tariffs arose. Even then, there was a strong, if different, agrarian tradition in the north – one that would translate to the mid-west as that territory opened.
Right, but you can overturn Roe/Casey without touching Griswold. Easily.