The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The War in Ukraine, II
The Russians seem - understandably to want out, and I'm becoming more and more optimistic that they will be out, soon.
I am astonished that in all the 24/7 coverage of the Russian invasion, so little attention is being paid to what to my eyes seems clearly to be a most - perhaps the most - significant development of the past few days: The utter silence, on both the Russian and the Ukrainian side, about what they talked about at their first negotiating session at the border, followed, today, by the announcement that they will be holding a second round of talks shortly.
This is exactly what you would expect to happen if there were actually serious proposals under consideration. If it was all just arm-waving and table-pounding, you'd think that one side, or both, would have said so, blaming the other side for the futility of the exercise. I take the fact that the Ukrainians have agreed to a second meeting as a very positive sign; they must think that something useful could come out of continuing the discussions, and they're in a helluva lot better position to make that judgment than I am.
One thing is crystal clear: the Russians did not want to be in this position. When the invasion began, Putin had no intention of negotiating with Zelensky or his government. His plan - does anyone doubt this? - was to destroy Zelensky and his government, and then to get on with things. That wasn't merely incidental to his overall objective - it was his overall objective.
But now, six days in, he's negotiating with Zelensky. Maybe it's a total sham, and he's just doing it to bide time, or for the publicity value. But the Ukrainians appear not to think it's a sham, and I'll trust their judgment.
What does it mean? It seems to me clear that the Russians want out. Putin has a problem he didn't anticipate, and it is a problem that, unfortunately for him but fortunately for the civilized world, will not be and cannot be solved on the battlefield. The problem, of course, is the new weapon the Allies have deployed - collectively, the "sanctions" - which appears to be capable of laying waste to the Russian economy and the Russian standard of living. "Bombing them back to the Stone Age," as it were, but without the use of bombs.
And the Russians must surely see that that problem will not go away, even if they gain their objectives on the battlefield. Indeed, that may well make the problem worse; marching into and occupying Kharkiv and Kyiv, dissolving the government, imprisoning, or murdering, Zelensky and his associates, none of that is likely to further endear Putin to the world or to cause the Allies to loosen the noose.
So I continue to be optimistic that this tragedy may be coming to an end, because I think the Russians are pretty anxious for a way out, and I think - or at least I hope - that the Ukrainians can find one, some concession that they can swallow that gives Putin a way to declare victory and leave.
And in the true spirit of putting my money where my mouth is, I've got $50 that says that the war is over, and the Russians are on their way out of Ukraine, by the end of this month. First one to take me up on that in the Comments is in.
One advantage, incidentally, that the Allies' new weapon has in comparison to conventional weapons of war is that its effects are, to a very substantial degree, entirely reversible. The sanctions are a kind of siege - nothing comes in, nothing goes out, if it works well; once it is called off and the gates re-open, the Russian economy can return rather quickly to something like its pre-war state. That, one has to assume, must be part of the negotiations now underway - some guarantee that the sanctions will be lifted if/when the Russians leave. [Which could get tricky, insofar as the Ukrainians aren't the ones imposing the sanctions]
So it's really not like bombing Russia back to the Stone Age, whose effects would not be so easily reversed.
Not to mention that actually bombing Russia back to the Stone Age - which we do, after all, have the capacity to do - would invite a retaliation whose consequences are obviously too horrible to contemplate.
But that points to another nice feature of the new weapon we have deployed: Russia can't turn it against us in retaliation. It can lay siege to Kyiv, on the ground; but it can't lay siege to the US economy, let alone all the component Allied economies, the way we can lay siege to its economy. That's a nice weapon to have at your disposal.
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"And in the true spirit of putting my money where my mouth is, I've got $50 that says that the war is over, and the Russians are on their way out of Ukraine, by the end of this month. First one to take me up on that in the Comments is in."
Define "Ukraine."
I'll hinge a bet on whether or not Russia is still in the Donbas & Lugansk(?) regions. My bet is Russia will still be in those two regions in April. Whether or not they're in Kiev et all is another matter.
Also, I must congratulate Ukraine for whoever is running their propaganda. It's top notch.
Presumably not Crimea, although I would be delighted if it went that far. I think the better question is whether it includes Donetsk and Luhansk.
This ridiculous and stupid. Were it not for the stinking lawyer profession, the drones would have gone out and killed Putin, his family, his oligarchic supporters, their families. Everyone go home, and thrive.
You vile stinking lawyers have us spnding $trillions on war to enrich yourselves and your oligarchic suporters, at the cost of millions of lives. War should cost a $few million and be over in days. Kill the oligarchs starting them and their puppet heads of state.
If they retaliate by killing ours, send them a Thank You card and a gift.
Ukraine includes Crimea and the Donbass. Just because their first war was completely successful, their second has been slowly losing ground for the past 8 years, and the third has been a complete clusterfuck doesnxt mean they get to redefine the sovereign borders of Ukraine.
If they are ever going to get their country back, right now is when they have all the leverage. If they let this opportunity pass, they will never get another chance.
Russia offers to immediately ceasefire and withdraw in return for Crimea and the Donbass.
Should Ukraine take the offer?
No.
It would save thousands or tens of thousands [or more] lives and untold suffering. Take a look at the results of urban warfare, its not pretty.
Just the Crimea is the offer, take that?
Nope. Rewarding Russia for invading Ukraine 3 times is just begging them to make it four.
Russia cannot be allowed to reap any territorial gains from their invasion. "Give us X or a lot of people are going to die" is only abandoned as a strategy if the answer is "No".
I define Ukraine as as it was constituted at the time of the Budapest Memorandum.
It's possible that unrest in Russia will cause Putin to seek a quick way out, but US military advisers seems to think that Russia may set up a puppet government relatively quickly, but it will not be seen as legitimate by Ukrainians and will be under constant attack for at least a decade. Either way Russia loses.
Somewhat tangential, but some rare good news from the Ukraine:
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2022/03/02/the-lyrics-are-supposed-to-go-forward-he-cried-from-the-rear-and-the-front-rank-died-dont-you-know/
Would it be problematic appropriation of Kazakh identity (whether the real or fake kind) to quote Borat in saying "very nice!"?
I note in passing that the real Kazakhstan has a cute set of tourism mini-advertisements using that phrase as a slogan. I think they work well, although I am still not planning on visiting the country.
"once it is called off and the gates re-open, the Russian economy can return rather quickly to something like its pre-war state."
Aside from the fact that Western leaders are waking from their Green dreams, and now clearly understand what a trap it is being dependent on a hostile totalitarian state for vital supplies, and that they really DO have a dangerous foe to their East.
Will this last? Maybe not, if Putin promptly withdraws; The Green dream, as irrational as it is, is a seductive fantasy. But I think it will last long enough to change the dynamics in Europe.
The real question is whether or not this lesson will be generalized to China, which will be even harder for the West to disentangle itself from.
Putin’s most successful disinformation campaign has been to vilify fracking and dupe leaders in the EU and in America (Cuomo) into banning fracking. Believe it or not Putin hates Hillary not just because she is a neocon/neoliberal that is willing to sacrifice foreigners to weaken Putin but also because as SoS she promoted fracking in Europe (unsuccessfully).
If this ends soon with Putin getting Donbas and an end to the war, Ukraine getting closer to the EU, and America agreeing to not extend a NATO invite to Ukraine then everyone would win (I still do not understand why all of this bloodshed could not have been prevented with diplomacy). And counterintuitively Putin will have put an end to the American “green dream” by blaring a sonic boom wake-up call…which is a huge win for the American people.
Putin getting a further border change after the Crimea theft is not a win for anybody but Putin.
Who's going to pay money for all Putin's destruction?
Who's going to pay ethically for all Putin's killing?
Eventually it will be Russia if they want sanctions lifted.
I disagree and favor the Russian side. (I don't know what courts have said of this question, but I do not consider any country to be our enemies unless and until Congress declares war on them, which has not yet happened here.) For the full explanation I refer all comers to vivabarneslaw.locals.com, but here is a summary of the basis for the pro-Russian position:
1. Zelensky has never been legitimately elected. He was installed by a Soros "color revolution."
2. Ukraine accepted Russia's right to occupy Crimea and the Donbass in the Minsk accords in 2014. Ukraine has repeatedly broken that treaty ever since. Russia has not.
3. There is precedent for the position that a province consisting mostly of citizens of one country may secede, with voter approval (which Putin got in both Donbass and Crimea), from another country. The precedent was set by ourselves, in Kosovo.
4. Putin offered on the first day of the war that if Zelensky would step down, cede the Donbass, and give up its heavy weapons, Putin would withdraw. He does not want to occupy the rest of Ukraine. He also has gone out of his way to announce publicly where his troops are going, and to leave open routes for civilians to flee. He is doing a creditable job of minimizing civilian losses, in contrast to the Ukrainian forces which have massacred thousands of Russian civilians in the Donbass.
5. Putin's major motive in starting this war was to keep his people from falling under the control of the globalists led by Soros, and from being included in a Great Reset if one takes place.
What a steaming pile of crap. Did you at least get paid to spread Russian disinformation or are you doing it for free?
And 6. Putin's justification in getting rid of those heavy weapons (missiles, mostly) in a country right next door is another precedent of our own making -- the Cuban missile crisis.
Besides, a Russian win in this war may be the only way the Great Reset is prevented from happening at all. Which will be a big win for the world.
A Russian win in this war would be an abomination.
If by the Great Reset you mean the 2020 economic forum and its plan, Russia's economy is so small on the world stage that if they don't participate it won't have the slightest impact. Hell, it wouldn't even be one of the top 10 states in the United States in terms of total economic size.
If you mean the conspiracy theory, you aren't making yourself seem any more credible by referencing insanity.
Next you'll tell me about the Illuminati running the world or the Rothschild family heading a global Jewish financial conspiracy. Although you literally referenced Soros, so you're obviously not a serious person.
But, hey. You earned your Russian paycheck today.
But, hey. You earned your Russian paycheck today.
Good luck trying to cash it.
Yeah, they should probably do it away and convert it from rubles ASAP. Pretty soon a sheet of toilet paper will have more value than a ruble.
But sanctions aren't doing anything, right?
False.
False, and false.
Distortion, but also irrelevant in this context.
False, False, False, False, false, and false. Including mention of non-existent "Russian civilians in the Donbas."
Anti-semitism, and false. And anti-semitism.
"I still do not understand why all of this bloodshed could not have been prevented with diplomacy"
Because Putin wanted something you can't get from Democracy: Total victory. Diplomacy works best when both sides have something the other side wants. Doesn't work when one side wants it all.
A quick read of Fiona Hill's recent interview can answer the question. All this talk of security, NATO, Donbass, etc. was a smokescreen to distract the West. What Putin wants no foreign nation or alliance can supply him.
I disagree—if he wants as many Russian speakers in Russia then that is a very rational and traditional goal and America shouldn’t facilitate death and destruction in order to undermine that goal. And remember—any expansion of NATO means more deficit spending to pay for arms for poor countries and small countries very close to the other side of the world.
If he wants Russian speakers in Russia, they can move there. He can't just claim part of another country because some of the people there speak Russian.
It is neither reasonable nor rational. And only a dupe, a propagandist, or an idiot would say the the death Russia is causing is America's fault.
And only a dupe, a propagandist, or an idiot would say the the death Russia is causing is America's fault.
Well, he's all three, so.....
I see. So you'd have no problem with Spain invading Mexico? Any country that speaks the same language as another is allowed to invade? England can take back the US?
" England can take back the US?"
No, but the US should take Canada except for Quebec.
LOL!
At the risk of going all Godwin, a man with a moustache said the same thing 80 years ago about a place called Sudetenland.
Common language is no excuse for territorial ambition. That would be like us saying we want Ontario because the sound the same as us.
I see a scenario where this leads to major changes within Russia.
Like civil war or large areas seceding, or at least a (relatively) peaceful revolution which results a western democratic style govt.
It appears there are quite a lot of Russians not on board with this and, if Putin's grip is weakened, this might be their opportunity.
I've been saying for some time that the best prospect of things turning out well in Ukraine is somebody putting a bullet into the back of Putin's head, and the Russian troops being called home. Putin might tactically retreat if things get ugly enough, but he's not going to simply give up his ambitions, and if his army isn't up to the job, those nukes are going to start looking awfully attractive.
Brett Bellmore : "those nukes are going to start looking awfully attractive"
1. Nuclear weapons will only look "attractive" if Putin is fully insane.
2. You don't nuke your neighbor because you suffer most of the repercussions from your own attack (not even considering the broader response)
3. Presumably the Russia command structure has the ability to deal with an insane leader intent on national suicide. (presumably ours does too)
So it's good you no longer see Putin as a "savvy" "successful" "clever" statesman of the highest stature, but a delusional corrupt failure - who didn't begin to think this latest fiasco through. That's progress. But nuclear weapons are still unfathomable absent a leader who welcomes his own country's mass destruction.
Won't a nuke kill many of the ethnic Russians he claims he's invading to save?
"the ethnic Russians he claims he's invading to save"
That's just an excuse. He doesn't care how many ethnic Russians get killed in his war. (Just as Hamas doesn't care how many Israeli Arabs its rockets kill.)
But America doesn’t care how many Ukrainians die to thwart that goal.
Why would you think that Americans don't care how many Ukrainians die?
Oh, wait. You're paid disinformation. Sorry, I forgot.
So are the cluster bombs he's using in cities.
1. Yeah, your point? Putin is an old man in dubious health with extensive ambitions. His time horizon is getting shorter and shorter, and he's not doing the sane thing, which is to moderate his ambitions to match his resources and remaining time.
So, yeah, by normal standards he's not sane. By bloody handed dictator standards? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
2. I don't mean that he would necessarily nuke Ukraine. What I mean is that Russia has very little in the way of leverage anymore except for it's ability to start a nuclear war. The temptation to move from using those nukes for deterrence, to using them for extortion, has to be growing.
3. I wouldn't presume that. We're a functioning democracy, with institutions designed around the presumption of regular changes of civilian leadership. Russia is a dictatorship, and has been for a long while. Dictatorships don't have much tendency to put into place mechanisms to limit the dictator's powers.
"So it's good you no longer see Putin as a "savvy" "successful" "clever" statesman of the highest stature"
Never said that he was a statesman, let alone of the highest stature. He's a blood drenched thug. But, he's a successful blood drenched thug, and it's not a career path that is kind to people who are stupid, so treating him as a idiot isn't very smart.
He's very good at getting what he wants, it's just that what he wants isn't what moral people want, and his means aren't the means moral people employ. Doesn't mean he's incompetent and employing them.
"So it's good you no longer see Putin as a "savvy" "successful" "clever" statesman of the highest stature"
Getting and holding power in Russia longer than anyone since Stalin proves he is "savvy" "successful" "clever" .
You seem to mistaking ruthless, murderous, and brutal for savvy and clever.
You seem to mistaking ruthless, murderous, and brutal for savvy and clever.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of "necessary but not sufficient". Being ruthless, murderous and brutal without also being savvy and clever are more likely to get you killed very quickly than to get you a position of near-absolute power and allow you to hold it for a long time. Granted, sanity isn't a requirement, but stupidity is a disqualifier.
"You don't nuke your neighbor because you suffer most of the repercussions from your own attack "
What size nuke are you talking about why do you think that Putin would rule out a 1 or 2 kT device?
The US military assured Congress that it would not implement a nuclear attack order given by Trump in a fit of rage, not justified by the circumstances. There's a scene in a Tom Clancy novel where our hero tells the general not to launch a nuclear attack because the president is out of his mind. Would the Russian military stand up to Putin in the same way?
I'm a little surprised. Usually the EU out pusses America but they've been leading the charge on economic sanctions and aid while Biden dithers in the background. Of course the real winner in the PR war has been Zelensky.
They have the 'advantage' of being just a few days lightning advance away from areas where Putin has soldiers killing people. Mortal peril does so focus the attention.
There is a clear and organized strategy for the sanctions and more overt actions to be lead by the Europeans, and not the US. The allies want to deny Russia the ability to portray the invasion as a superpower battle.
It has been Biden who has pushed the sanctions. The Germans (NordStream/SWIFT), the Italians (luxury goods), and the Hungarians (Orban/Putin alliance) were against various aspects of the sanctions, but Biden managed to wrangle them into line. That he agreed to them saving face by being the ones to announce the sanctions that they initially opposed is yet another example of stellar diplomacy.
Right he's so savvy he took extra steps to hide his involvement by coming out against SWIFT sanctions and other measures until he saw the way the wind was blowing. Not to mention he failed to take serious measures in the obvious buildup to the invasion. His bravery is so well orchestrated theres no evidence of it at all.
It is difficult to take some of these comments seriously, given the whiplash.
On the one hand, it has been gratifying to see the near-universal agreement in the West to oppose Putin, and, finally, an understanding that you don't have to swallow lies ... there is such thing as truth, and it does matter. When even Orban understands that some things are beyond the pale, maybe there is hope for a shared consensus.
On the other hand, it has been less-than-gratifying to see certain people and those that follow them somehow switch from the perspective that Ukraine is not a real country and we shouldn't even use words to defend them and Biden shouldn't be scaremongering about that nice man Putin to, "OMG, how dare Biden not do even more."
Don't talk to me about that traitor Orban after everything Tucker did for him.
AmosArch : "(gibberish) .... the way the wind was blowing .... (gibberish)"
It's tiring to deal with people who are (a) making "points" they know are empty bullshit, or (b) pure simpletons. Biden did not "come out" for SWIFT measures he knew the Germans would oppose because that would do more harm than good in the effort against Putin. The last thing the West needed was to be bickering over measures against Russia. That's exactly what Putin wanted to see. The first priority was common unity among the allies. Are you really so damn stupid you don't understand that, AmosArch?
As for the Germans, a lot of us were amazed how quickly they developed a backbone. I'm sure a lot of that was caused by Ukraine's resistance. If the Russian führer's blitzkrieg had been successful, they probably would have stayed invertebrate.
Zelensky's political resilience and social media savvy after the invasion has been a great asset to the Ukrainians. I believe he shamed a lot of the sanction-resistant Europeans, particularly the Germans.
I thought that myself when this started. He needs to keep hammering "Europe needs to lead this", or at least look like it, in actions. Sanctions, sending weapons overnight delivery, etc.
This disables Putin's claim it's all the evil US, with rhetorical advantage internally.
If Europe is standing up to get in the way...
"It has been Biden who has pushed the sanctions. "
Fantasy.
We have been me-tooing all the way.
You clearly haven't been paying attention to who wants what and who has changed their stance.
Or you just have Biden Derangement Syndrome and can't acknowledge that he's been highly effective, specifically because he doesn't feel the need to grandstand or look "tough" or "strong".
It's a relief from the form-over-substance approach of the previous administration.
So highly effective theres an actual invasion going on.
There was literally nothing thay anyone other than Putin could have done to stop the invasion.
Biden gave him plenty of off ramps, broadcast how deeply we were into their decsion-making by declassifyong intelligence, told the world exactly what Putin would do days before he did it, and tried to make him understand that it would end badly if he invaded.
Meanwhile behind the scenes he wrangled our allies, got them all on the same page, gently pushed the reluctant to join the group effort, and gave the countries who had to make hard decisions the opportunity to make themselves profiles in courage by announcing the things they were doing even though it hurt them.
Speak softly and carry a big stick. This is how it's supposed to be done.
It turns out that it is more effective than the "bray like a jackass and fail to follow through" strategy it replaced.
I dunno; Biden never even tried the strategy of effusively praising Putin and denouncing NATO.
"The problem, of course, is the new weapon the Allies have deployed - collectively, the "sanctions" - which appears to be capable of laying waste to the Russian economy and the Russian standard of living."
Putin just needs to go on TV and complain that he is the victim of cancel culture. Half the US would then take his side.
So you're saying people are hypocrites if they complain that the same weapons being used against enemy nations are deployed against private citizens?
Gee, now if someone just thought of using sanctions against that other world bad boy, Iran.
Oh, wait . . .
Professor Post...I will take the bet. The Russians will still be in Ukraine the end of March.
May I collect in-person? I'll buy you a consolation drink with my winnings.
OK, Commentator_XY, you're on. And celebrating with a consolation drink paid from the winnings for the loser - whoever that may be - sounds like a good idea to me.
I realize there is a definitional problem in defining precisely what "in Ukraine" might mean. I'm happy to leave that somewhat ambiguous for now. By April 1, the Russians will either, by common understanding, have lost - in which case I win - or not, in which case you win. They will have lost if they've pulled their troops back beyond the internationally-recognized border of Ukraine (which does not, at this point, include Crimea) - back, in short, to where they were last Wednesday. We might have to call in an arbitrator in the event that they've pulled *most* (but not all) of their troops out of the eastern provinces; but quite honestly, if that is where we are on April 1, I'll be happy enough to declare you the winner and to pick up the tab for a few glasses of a nice Ukrainian red ...
Professor Post, would the Donbass be in or out of Ukraine?
Professor Post, I am honored. Really. I'll spot you Crimea and the two eastern provinces in dispute, just to make this a sporting wager.
It will be obvious to everyone what the status of Ukraine is on March 31st. And you know what, if the Russians pick up and leave by the end of the month...am I really going to feel bad about 'losing' this bet? Nope.
And I do enjoy a glass of good red. 🙂
You guys will definitely have to report back on what you blew your winnings on!
Consider that done!
There haven’t been any new comments since March, so… was this done?
I would love to see, in order:
-a quick Russian defeat, Putin deposed, and democracy in Russia
-a quick Russian defeat, and Putin deposed
-a quick Russian defeat
-a Russian defeat
but I wouldn't start the victory dances yet. In the Iraq invasion U.S. forces took 20 some days to reach Baghdad. And in WWII, Germany and Japan kept fighting long after their position was hopeless. Belarus is poised to enter the war, etc. We could get good news today that the new Russian leader is ordering an immediate withdrawal, or a nasty insurgency could drag on for years, or the Ukrainian people could end up subjugated again for an extended period.
From your mouth to God's ears.
Illegality aside, what is wrong with making your first wish come true? It is the best ooutcome for even the suffering Russian people. We are sick of the stinking lawyer profession hobbling our warriors. Arrest the lawyer traitors. Try them. Execute them for treason on the spot.
You're more likely to see:
- A complete Russian victory with Ukraine in ruins.
- A partial Russian victory with Ukraine in ruins.
- A negotiated peace that addresses Russia's security concerns with Ukraine in ruins
- A negotiated peace that addresses Russia's security concerns with Ukraine spared further injury.
What about Polish security concerns?
What about Ukraine security concerns?
They aren't even a country, according to Putin. They aren't allowed to have security concerns. Or, apparently, anything else that Russia doesn't want them to have.
Russia had no real security concerns, they know damned well NATO was never going to attack them. Their only concern about the expansion of NATO was that it would make it hard to expand Russia by force of arms.
That is not, by definition, a security concern.
Amen! I am so tired of people justifying Putin's action by claiming NATO and Ukraine triggered it by talking as sovereign nations and organizations do. If Putin has a veto on Ukraine's foreign policy, then Ukraine is not sovereign.
Russia wants trade partners and not America using our magical printing press and bestowing arms and largesse in Russia’s front yard all the while our elites play grabass in and make a mockery of Ukraine.
I'm sorry. The translation from the original Russian wasn't very good. Can you try again with a different stinking pile of pro-Russian propaganda?
Russia started having security concerns when NATO reneged on a verbal agreement not to expand in exchange for German reunification, followed by eastward expansion and the installation of VLS cells that can latch first strike weapons.
The notion that, say, Poland was going to invade Russia is ... ludicrous.
Cripes. If Russia was a stable democracy, NATO would welcome Russia as a member, which just might stop China from seizing Siberia someday. Putin's paranoia is just that.
(No hard feelings, times are tough, you have to earn a living too!)
Russia has little interest in the compromises their society would have to make to join NATO or the EU. Even Poland and Hungary are having second thoughts.
ROFL! "Compromises their society would have to make"!
That's an interesting way to say "we would have to get rid of our autocratic kleptocracy and allow our citizens to have a voice".
Russia didn't have a choice about German reunification. Or the independence of the Warsaw Pact countries. They never got any assurances from anyone because they had no leverage. Your historical fantasy is laughable.
Matter little what you or I believe regarding assurances, what matters is what Russia believes. There's plenty of evidence backing their assertion.
There is no evidence backing that assertion. And no one cares what Russia thinks because everyone knows Russia is full of shit.
Just look at the pack of lies they put out about how "justified" they were to invade Ukraine. Like anyone with a functioning brain would hear that and say, "Hmmm. That sounds totally reasonable".
They aren't even trying to pretend they are telling the truth.
If you want the "security concerns" of other countries to be relevant, most of the world has security concerns about Russia that can only be eased by Russia remaining inside its own borders and surrendering all of their military capabilities. Sound good?
Define Russian "victory". They unfortunately have the raw manpower and firepower to take Ukraine, but a successful occupation is another thing entirely.
Afghanistan was a costly meatgrinder for the Russians, and Ukraine would be exponentially worse, particularly with an insurgency well-financed by the west with borders on the country, and with the Russians facing unprecedented economic sanctions.
NormanStansfield : "A complete Russian victory with Ukraine in ruins"
Please describe what that would look like. At the very beginning of the invasion, Russia asked the Ukrainian military to dispose Zelinksy. One of their pet Ukrainian quislings crossed the border behind the tanks, smugly announcing his time was nigh.
That was how Putin foresaw a "complete Russian victory", because he's an idiot & failure. The man is like a wastrel juvenile delinquent who got away with all kinds of vandalism & criminal mischief until tempted to commit a real crime.
Now the Russians are racking up casualties in days equal to the sum losses of their Afghan war. None of their candidates for puppet ruler will last a minutes without occupation troops, who will then be bled dry. I'm not sure what your "Russian victory" is supposed to look like....
If this last long enough I won't have to describe it.
I hope your exoectations invlude a lot of dead Russians and Ukrainian collaborators. Because the insurgency (well-armed, well-funded, with NATO intelligence helping them plan and the international community united behind them) will make the Soviet experience in Afghanistan look like a cakewalk.
Alexi Nevalni for President!
Russia doesn't have any legitimate security concerns.
When it comes to threats other border, Russia is more rational than say, the US.
Russia has never been rational. Ftom the czars to the Bolshoviks to Putin's autocracy, Russia has never been a stable member of the international community. If they dodn't have nukes they would be completely irrelevant to the world today.
In the Iraq invasion, (1) the U.S. had to go significantly further geographically to reach Baghdad than Russia does to reach Kyiv; and (2) the U.S. was in no hurry. We could be thorough and methodical. We were not being held up by resistance from the Iraqi military.
Perhaps so, perhaps not. Sending a signal that peace talks are serious might help dissuade Western countries from sending more aid to Ukraine least they disturb these positive vibes.
And since it appears Putin actually believed Ukrainians were just waiting for an excuse to overthrow their oppressors and welcome Russian liberators with open arms, he might also actually believe that Western leaders are so conflict-averse, peace-desperate, and frightened tbat they will take any excuse they can to get avoid escalating the conflict.
It’s probably just me being L-seven. But I think this one is woolly enough that I’d put my money with Sam and the Pharaohs.
Not often remarked upon, but the USSR also was to some extent dependent on foreign money, beginning with the detente era. They were careful to pay back on time. An early sign that their system was failing was when circa 1980 they started falling behind.
Things can't just go back to normal once Russia leaves Ukraine.
Looks like regime change is Russia will be necessary, and we have to hash out war reparations.
Regime change in Russia? You're f'ng nuts.
Lol, I'm the one who's fucking nuts? Have you been paying attention?
Regime change in Russia is pretty much inevitable in the next decade. Putin isn't immortal, you know.
Just because another guy becomes dictator does not mean that there is regime change in any externally meaningful sense.
True. Frightening and sad, but true.
He's not, but the policy won't change because he's gone. If you think getting rid of Putin will solve everything, you're delusional. Some other strongman will rise up to protect Russian interests from the decadent West.
The decadent west, eh? What a joke.
But you aren't wrong that Russia has a surplus of amoral, vicious strongmen. They have those in spades.
Not in the least. If 1991 showed us anything it was even the long suffering Russian people have a red line that can't be crossed.
Really it would be good for the entire world including Russia if Vlad met with sudden projectile lead poisoning.
The only way Vlad gets lead poisoning if he fails to protect Russian security interests.
"Russian security interests"
You aren't even pretending that you aren't paid Russian disinformation any more. You talk like a Kremlin spokesman, with the same lack of credibility.
Things pretty much went back to normal when Iraq “left” Kuwait. Yeah, a despot who invades a sovereign neighbor should lose the right to govern, but enforcing that concept is another matter.
Saddam kept testing the US until we had to invade and hang him.
We had no legitimate reason to go into Iraq under Bush 43. That was all neocon farce and lies.
"no legitimate reason"
We wanted to, reason enough for a great power.
Might makes right? What a terrible belief system.
Its not "belief", its reality. Maybe not when the Messiah comes, but until then.
As the Athenians said "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must".
Works for the US. The sole global power has been throwing their weight around for the last 30 years with little consequence.
With $30T in debt, a hollowed out military, and an economy that may soon implode, those days are coming to an end.
I thought you were talking about the US, not Russia.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Your economy is barely strong enough to remain stable on a good day. The sanctions should collapse your economy before your army controls Kyiv.
Russia's objective has always been to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO & the EU. If they can get this through negotiations, then they'll see not further need for military action.
1. That has NOT been Russia's objective. If it was, they didn't need to invade. Their objective was to have a compliant client-state (like Belarus) or to have Ukraine once again be part of Greater Russia.
2. That said, if the "victory" Putin needs to go home is Ukraine saying that they will not try and join NATO, then I am sure that can be arranged quickly. Again, though, if you had a power-hungry despot invade you for the THIRD TIME recently, this time with the overt goal of overthrowing your government, you might have a good reason to join a defensive alliance ....
I'm not sure, "We promise not to do the only thing that would keep you from doing this again" is really a great option for Ukraine. On the other hand, joining NATO wasn't on the table in the first place, so they'd be giving up something more symbolic than real.
Considering this was never about NATO or the EU, you are proceeding from a false premise.
This has always been about Putin getting by hook or crook his hands on Ukraine. There were no negotiations, promises, or guarantees the West could have made that would dissuade him from that objective.
Should he come out on top, Slovakia, Eastern Poland and the Baltics will next be in his sights.
Forgot to add Moldova as well.
Everyone forgets Moldova.
Moldova ought to be seeking union with Romania.
That sounds like the plot of a romance novel or a rom-com.
Following your false premise, so the West can their hands on Ukraine and exploit it?
So for Ukraine, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, except for LGBT parades and an invasion of third world migrants.
D-
Gotta do better if you want a bonus.
I'm pretty sure he gets paid by the post. In rubles.
As opposed to one of the prime figures in Ukraine corruption, who now sits in the Oven Office. What was he getting paid in?
Whoops! You screwed up your talking points. It's Biden's son who Russia and the American right accuse of corruption in Ukraine, not Biden himself.
You'll need to go back and learn which conspiracy theories you're supposed to promote.
Of course. That's why they invaded Crimea and the Donbass in 2014.
Why does anyone believe this nonsense? Let alone think it's credible.
It's a total sham. Putin sent the garbageman and the cleaning lady to negotiate.
Ukraine knows it's a total sham, but having a conversation never hurts. You might learn something about your opponent's intentions.
Ukraine also is probably playing nice so Putin doesn't have an excuse to say Ukraine doesn't want peace.
Many of these comments read as if the authors were not skeptical of the West's media.
That's probably a mistake.
Putin's ranting was also carried on his own media. It speaks for itself.
BravoCharlieDelta, meet WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot.
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot, meet Putin’s new BFF.
They believe every word, hook, line and sinker.
"once it is called off and the gates re-open, the Russian economy can return rather quickly to something like its pre-war state."
No this is a delusion. First of all, corporate boards are not going to take the risk that this is a one-off. The deals that BP and Shell exited are no so easily re-entered. Boeing and Airbus are going to be punished at home for transferring technology and help to Aeroflot. The bans against Russian social media re probably not quite permanent, but future Russian media will come with heavy filters.
The ruble will remain permanently depressed, because banks will be extremely reluctant to lend even if sanctions are lifted. The capital controls Putin put in place to prevent debt service to foreigners means that Russia will have a difficult time accessing capital markets for years.
Putin has fundamentally changed the world order and united NATO is a way no German chancellor ever could. He even forced Germany to up its defense budget. Ukraine will become a member of NATO and the EU, exactly the opposite of what Putin wanted.
There are so many other things permanently changed that will affect the Russian economy. Putin has not set them back to the stone age. 1992, perhaps.
Don't forget that support for joining NATO in Sweden and Finland has now risen above 50%. The invasion may inadvertently enlarge NATO on Russia's borders.
I'd love to be a fly on Putin's wall if Finland joined NATO. He would freak out!
Didn't Trump want NATO members taking up a fair share of NATO's expenses off the shoulders of the USA?
And Putin made it happen lol.
They've always worked well together.
He also told the Germans to become less dependent on Russian energy.
Him and everyone else.
Not as you phrase it. That was what Trump claimed (and may have actually believed), but it's not true. There were no "NATO expenses" at issue. The issue was these countries' own domestic military spending. Nothing about them spending more money (which every American president for decades has complained about) had anything to do with taking anything off the U.S.'s shoulders.
According to a story I read this morning, Russia is willing to pay ruble-denominated bonds but is unable to get payments to the foreigners who hold 20% of the debt.
It is amazing how confident so many commenters are in their opinions, given that AFAIK, none of them have any special connections or insight, a good deal of what is going on in terms of the battles is not known, and there remain large questions regarding the motives of Putin - not to mention whom, if anyone, he is listening to.
Слава Україні!
Says the guy who gets in arguments with people about how they use their own facebook accounts.
"the motives of Putin"
What's the mystery? He wants to take over former "Russian" territory. He constantly talks about the collapse of the Soviet Union being the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century.
Ed Grinberg : "He wants to take over former "Russian" territory"
I still hold that mistakes effect for cause. In order to consolidate power & wealth, Putin sabotaged every element of the Russian state essential for a modern, democratic, & prosperous first-world country. The country's democracy, free press, judiciary, and open economy were all sacrificed to allay his greed & insecurity. Only after all his foes were destroyed, his critics silenced, and his cronies glutted, did Putin turn his attention to a "legacy".
But what was left after twenty years of misrule? Tin-horn nationalist claptrap & foreign adventurism - the final refuge for dictators throughout history.
The problem here is that due to Westernized propaganda and failure to provide any type of actual journalistic coverage, no one really knows what is going on with Russia and Ukraine.
From best I can tell is that Putin's demands were:
1. Annexation of the "pro-Russian" areas that border Russia.
2. Regime change to some extent.
I would also guess they were probably in that order.
His intention was to sack the Capitol and force the government into exile which would permit him to have a Russian supervised and influenced selection process for the next government. That didn't happen though. For whatever reason, the Russians are stalled to the north, east and west of the city. There also doesn't appear to be that much actual military activity going on in that Russia is not pushing further into the city. Sure they blow up a few things here and there, but there is no offensive to take the city at least at this time.
In the South, the Russians have actually been pretty successful in their military campaign but most of that area is "pro-Russian" so that is what you would expect. The media has been quiet on this because they don't want to highlight any Russian success. So focus of the juicy stuff around the Capitol.
Another thing the media isn't mentioning and why I think the objective is what is above, is that largely the Russians are NOT targeting civilian infrastructure. Sure there are examples of that getting hit, but they are not doing things like cutting off power or other utilities to cities. They are also, currently, providing residents of Kiev notice to evacuate presumably before they begin an offensive. Why? If you bulldoze the civilian population of a country it makes it harder to empower your puppet government. The the Russians wanted to shell and bomb Kiev into the stone age they could have already done so and there isn't much Ukraine could do about it other than request support from allies.
Now, I'm sure logistics and ineptitude have a lot to do with the failing Russian advance. But that doesn't explain everything. Also, I think the Russian forces were not greeted as liberators nearly as much as Putin predicted, especially in the North. So unless they want to abandon the limited war strategy, I would also posit that Putin would probably be happy with getting annexation at this point and withdrawing (I assume regime change is not on the table especially given the international popularity of the current leadership). From what I understand from actual Ukrainians there would be little love lost if the smaller provinces bordering Russia were turned over making this possibility a "maybe".
"From what I understand from actual Ukrainians there would be little love lost if the smaller provinces bordering Russia were turned over making this possibility a "maybe"."
I'm dubious that this will be accepted Putin or the west though? Maybe if the remainder of Ukraine got into the EU/NATO as part of the deal the West would buy in. Because otherwise this is potentially just giving up some land to an aggressor and postponing the now smaller Ukraine's security problem until the next Russian invasion.
Ukraine will never be part of NATO, Germany, other themselves or through proxy, will block their admittance.
Keep thinking that. I love when despots get unpleasant surprises.
Did he really expect them to be greeted as liberators? I doubt he drinks his own Koolaid. He thought he could decapitate the Ukrainian government before resistance could be organized, and install a puppet regime.
That would allow him to retreat to just the 'separatist' regions he'd already infiltrated, and prevent Ukraine from setting up any effective resistance to his next bite.
He might get to keep the 'separatist' regions, if he plausibly threatens genocide as the alternative, but he's not going to get a Ukraine that will passively wait for his next attack. And his military situation is going to worsen over time, due to the lack of an economy capable of maintaining his military machine. Ukraine might even recapture the territory he's taken, in time.
I think some, if not most of the intelligence analysts thought America would be viewed as liberators when we went into Iraq and Afghanistan. So, yeah, don't think it is far flung that the echo chamber in which Putin probably operates told him the same thing.
Apparently he actually hoped the Ukrainian military would dispose Zelinksy for him, to maintain their army whole in the face of Russia's "might". With their complicity, a quisling ruler could be installed without the need for a Russian occupation force. That seems to have been Plan A, with absolutely no Plan B.
So Russian troops pour across the border and Putin tells the Ukrainian military to oust Zelinksy. He does so with a confident swagger, urging the Ukrainian military to "take power in your own hands" during a televised address.
"It seems like it will be easier for us to agree with you than this gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis," he says. You kinda wonder what the dumbass fool thought when he was ignored.
"People I can order shot don't treat me this way. I need to be in a position to have these people shot."
Your doubt is not based on any actual facts or evidence. But we do know that the Ukrainian government had low approval ratings, so someone who doesn't understand a free and democratic society might interpret that as apathy towards that government being removed.
I would put legitimization of Russian Crimea as number, and move the rest down accordingly.
https://understandingwar.org/ has a daily summary of operations in Ukraine and it provides some analysis of what may transpire in the next several days.
Serious ongoing negotiations is the best suggestion I've seen for the stalled Russian convoy, which has to be an incredibly attractive target in Ukranian eyes. A 40-mile-long traffic jam, much of it bunched up and just inviting attack not only from the air, but also by mortar crews on the ground. And artillery, if it can get close enough, though that might be vulnerable to Russian air attack. Lots of soft targets that will be hard to miss.
I agree on the civilian part. Despite the bad publicity and outrage -- a professional entertainer makes the perfect president at this time -- I do not see widespread targeting of civilians. I see the inevitable consequence of fighting a war in a populated area. The lawyers at the ICC can argue over whether particular soldiers commited crimes. The real crime is the invasion, not its execution, and the ICC has disclaimed jurisdiction over that.
Well, except for the cluster bombs they've been dropping on civilian areas.
According to Russia that isn't happening, but videos, eyewitnesses, autopsies on the inncents who have been killed, and Russia's inherent dishonesty all say otherwise.
Targeting civilians is against the rules. Missing the target and hitting civilians is part of war. Remember the bomb shelter full of civilians in Iraq that got taken out by a bunker buster?
I will take the bet.
The most surprising aspect of the historic sanctions regime is that it is being treated as cost free to the US, Europe, et AL. There will be bills to pay. Inflation, supply chain disruptions, Russian cyber crimes just for a start. No one is talking about this.
We are not very good at being united when things get hard, and are not inclined to share the pain. That is certainly the Russian attitude towards the US. They are very good about staying a difficult course because just the one guy gets to decide. Unless there is a coup, I which case I joyfully lose the bet
Other than energy (which is left out of the sanctions, and I doubt Russia will stop selling on its own), the pain seems quite asymmetric. Russia needs the rest of the world rather more than the rest of the world needs Russia. It isn't like China, which is vastly more integrated into the West's supply chains.
Biden has specifically and publicly said the sanctions will negatively effect us, especially at the gas pump. Warnings about cyber attacks on US businesses have also been stark and public.
" The most surprising aspect of the historic sanctions regime is that it is being treated as cost free to the US, Europe, et AL. "
Not among reasoning, educated, informed people.
I think the key here is to give the Russian, more likely Putin, some way to save face. That is an unpleasant prospect, but it beats leaving Ukraine as smoldering rubble.
Putin is still in charge and the Russian army can and will level Ukraine if cornered. Best to let the beast escape and then for the rest of the world to help Ukraine rebuild.
Perhaps we should announce, publicly, that we all mutually agree that this is Putin's fault, not Russia's, and Putin's head on a platter, together with a withdrawal of all troops, would end the matter.
For this to work you need to find the guy in Russian leadership who is the most ambitious and also close enough to Putin to stab him in the back.
As I noted before dictators don't really have retirement plans. So most don't trust anyone.
Brett Bellmore : "Putin's head on a platter, together with a withdrawal of all troops, would end the matter"
Which is surely the hard-hearted reason for targeting Russia's oligarchs. Although they're surely all criminals, I'm pretty confident this criminal invasion was not their plan or remotest desire. Still, the random disgruntled billionaire might be inspired by sanctions to make a project of Putin's ouster.
It is amazing how confident Post is in his opinion, given that AFAIK, he has no special connections or insight, a good deal of what is going on in terms of the battles is not known, and there remain large questions regarding the motives of Putin - not to mention whom, if anyone, he is listening to.
The world can not let Russia pull out and go back to normal while leaving Ukraine in ruins. There must be long term consequences and reparations.
Sorry I couldn't read all of the comments here so forgive me if someone else noted this. But here is a potential solution:
A TREATY between all NATO members and Russia to freeze NATO and not let it expand. Ukraine would remain a neutral buffer zone state between NATO and Russia and the rest of Eurasia. Some kind of reparations would have to be paid to Ukraine.
Why accept such a treaty though? If Finland, Ukraine, or Sweden wants to join NATO, sounds OK to me.
Moreover, how does the treaty actually protect Ukraine from a future incursion? If Russia violates it, what happens that is worse than the existing situation? If the US is committed to defending Ukraine by this treaty, how is it all that different than Ukraine joining NATO anyway?
A good solution, but it requires the West to stop looking down their noses at Russia.
Finland & Sweden are talking NATO membership, but cooler heads may prevail.
We'll see how Germany follows on their promise to spend more on defense. Most of what they're budgeting now will probably be spent fixing all the broke/non functioning equipment they have.
So basically reward Russia with everything it wants? Why would any rational country do that?
Ideally Russia would want all of Ukraine and Belarus (and perhaps some other areas) to be integrated into a greater "Rus."
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Baptism_of_Rus%27
Putin wouldn't get that; Ukraine would remain independent. But I think he need a greater understanding of why Putin/Russia don't want Ukraine in NATO or to share borders with any NATO nations.
Sorry I meant "we" need a greater understanding of .... I don't think we can edit these comments after we post them.
The prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is something Russia would go to war over.
The fact that people think this justifies an invasion is insane. Russia doesn't get to make choices for other sovereign nations.
He certainly doesn't get a veto.
Who cares what he wants? It's not his country so he doesn't get to make any decisions for them.
Of course, he already does share borders with two NATO nations.
Another reason this post is hopelessly naive:
"MSCI Inc. moved Wednesday to drop Russian stocks from its influential indexes that track emerging markets after the invasion of Ukraine shuttered the Moscow Exchange and left global investors unable to sell their holdings."
Once Russian is shut off from the western financial system it will take years to turn it back on. Maybe a decade or more.
Biden is crazed. Europe is dissolving into terror. Too little, too late.
Putin WILL win eventually.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10569141/Putin-NOT-crazy-Russian-invasion-NOT-failing-writes-military-analyst-BILL-ROGGIO.html
And get bogged down fighting an insurgency. A well-funded, well-armed insurgency using intelligence from the West to target invaders and collaborators. Good luck with that.
Zelensky says Putin should learn the word "reparations". Negotiating point or genuine demand? If the Russians offer withdrawl and status quo ante, does he accept? The West will likely help rebuild.
The Russians would want something in return. Yes, absolutely there should be reparations and if the West wants to help as a matter of charity we should.
I say give the Russians a treaty assurance that Ukraine won't join NATO. Also recognize some of the annexed territory. And let Ukraine keep its weapons.
Putin needs to no longer be head of state in Russia. The Ukraine remains a free and independent state. Armed. Not part of NATO. But a neutral buffer zone state.
That's a terrible idea. Given Russia's unjustified and terroristic behavior, I think that convincing every country that borders Russia to the west to join NATO and helping them make it happen is the best way to neuter a rogue nation.
Take anything that Russia wanted and make sure the opposite happens now that they have proven to be warmongers and delusional psychopaths.
The only thing people like Putin understand is painful consequences. We need to make them painful enough that he never chooses to attack in ocent people and countries again.