The Volokh Conspiracy
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Prof. Jonathan Turley (GW) on the Trump Civil Incitement Opinion
From today's item in The Hill:
When Trump's lawyers said his language was largely indistinguishable from that of many Democrats like Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.), Mehta chided them for playing "a game of what-aboutism."
That "what-aboutism," however, is precisely the point. The selective imposition of liability for speech is the very thing that the First Amendment is designed to prevent.
As rioting raged in Brooklyn Center, Minn. and nationwide in 2020, Congresswoman Waters went to Minnesota and told protesters there that they "gotta stay on the street" and "get more confrontational." Others have used language very similar to Trump's in declaring elections to be invalid (including Hillary Clinton calling Trump an "illegitimate president") or urging supporters to "fight" or "battle" against Republicans; Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-Mass.) once said, "There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there's unrest in our lives."
All of those statements arguably were reckless but clearly protected speech.
Free speech demands bright lines. While this is a "one-of-a-kind case," Trump's comments were hardly unique….
I think the court's decision would likely apply only to situations where some people already appear to be gathered and prepared to engage in imminent illegal conduct, so that might not include the Clinton and Pressley examples. But it might well cover a repeat of the Waters example (whether it's addressed to gathered crowds in person or remotely), and others like it.
For my take on the case, see here.
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It would be one thing if it was clear what sort of speech is protected or not. But the whole issue is that things are muddled now with things the Dems are saying magically okay while similar sounding things by Trump are not. So yeah 'what aboutism' is the central issue here.
Facts-based inquires are not very uncommon.
Also, tying words to context is also important. 'Saying similar things' is deceitfully ignoring context.
They aren't uncommon, but we generally try to avoid them a little more in First Amendment cases.
This is explicitly untrue for incitement - it's a facts based test.
It's very dangerous to have fact-specific tests on matters of heated controversy. People will always rationalize that people they despise *must* be "over the line," etc.
There's a fine line between nobody being above the law and criminalizing politics. We should always err on the side of avoiding the latter, as it's far more important to the survival of a democratic and free society. (I felt this way about Hillary Clinton too, when many on the right were in a frenzy about her alleged crimes...)
We've gotten along fine for over 50 years. And I'm not worried Trump is in trouble here.
A bright line rule would be overinclusive or nonexistent.
Well, of course you're not worried that Trump is in trouble here. Nobody would have expected you to be worried, you don't like Trump, so who'd expect you to be worried about abuses directed against him?
You won't be worried until the shoe is on the other foot.
This threshold inquiry is nowhere near convicting Trump of anything, Brett.
Calm down.
It’s a civil case
Yeah, Nuke, *that's my point.*
This threshold inquiry is nowhere near convicting Trump of anything, Brett.
Calm down.
How exactly does one go about obtaining a conviction in civil litigation?
Misuse of nitpicking and of litigation as lawfare. It should not be returned by lawfare. Lawfare is pure lawyer rent seeking, with huge fees generated and zero value returned. Lawfare should be returned by the ass kicking of the scumbag judges allowing this farce to proceed. Drive them out of the state.
AmosArch, do you have any legal authority indicating that what-aboutism is a defense to a tort claim? Please be specific.
This is a law blog. Making up shit as you go along is bad form.
"But, your honor! The prosecutor is only prosecuting members of my party, while members of his party with similar fact patterns are left alone!" is not a legal defense. That's obvious.
At some point, though, it starts to matter in other ways that you really don't want us to arrive at.
Isn't there such a thing as Equal Protection / Selective Enforcement challenge that one can raise?
Not to a civil suit.
You've already arrived, Brett.
Here's the thing.
You're always going to believe that your side is being treated unfairly. Always. It's obvious from your comments. Just to take one example, you've already decided that any anti-Trump verdict by a DC jury is automatically invalid.
So there really is no way to change your mind, other than not prosecuting, or maybe not even criticizing, Republicans.
Isn't proving picking and choosing selective prosecution?
Electrons don't weigh much, but there's probably been several tons broadcast of bias in this regard.
I sympathize with you. Trump is a scoundrel... ...his paper should be closed, a committee formed to boycott him. If you can form such a committee, put me down for a contribution of $1000.
On the other hand, selective prosecution, especially over politics, is wrong. It was wring when Trump said, "Lock her up!", and it is wrong now, at least the hyperbole over the hot air of your political opponents.
Are you aware of anyone who has injured these Plaintiffs, whom they have not sued? In any event, a civil plaintiff is master of his complaint, and who has not been sued is irrelevant.
Member when Trump was taking office, and this blog fretted about Trump working to make it easier to sue people for speech?
Good times!
Sigh. Brett is being Brett again. There is no prosecutor. This is a civil suit.
Not unlike Roe……
not guilty, a prosecution without probable cause is the basis for the tort action of malicious prosecution. All immunities of your scumbag profession should be eliminated to avoid a fully justified tsunami of violence headed your way. All costs should come from the personal assets of the scumbag lawyer, since malicious prosecution was not in the job description it got from the taxpayer.
Mayor McNutty is all worked up this morning!
Turley consistently fails to understand that one side views constitutional protections as mere tools, to be strictly followed and celebrated when they empower the right people and disdained and ignored when they help the wrong people.
Turley seems to believe in a single standard and isn’t persuaded that Orange Man Bad overrides any and every other principle.
They haven’t tried sending Antifa to threaten him or his family yet though. I hear that’s persuasive. Nor have they sent a SWAT team to search his home, like they did with Project Veritas. Or accusing him of (innuendo in the neighborhood of) sexual assault when he was an adolescent, like they did with Kavanaugh. So he still might be silenced given that persuasion isn’t working.
"it might well cover a repeat of the Waters example"
It might cover the Waters example itself, I'd think.
Has anyone sued Rep. Waters? Courts are not in business to render advisory opinions as to non-parties' actions.
Who said they were?
The competent authority is the House of Representatives, which decides on the qualifications of its own members. If it lets Waters serve in it, that would suggest that it doesn't regard her as having committed insurrection.
The subject of this post is a civil action for damages. Rep. Waters is before the court as a Plaintiff seeking redress of injury. Whether she made unprotected statements in regard to unrelated matters is not germane to the action against Donald Trump.
Waters is a plaintiff? Where?
Cross examination would be interesting.
Waters is one of the Plaintiffs in the action initiated by Rep. Bennie Thompson and amended to add additional members of Congress as Plaintiffs. Docket No. 21-cv-00400 (APM).
Turley??
Really? You don't have an honest individual to quote in defense of Trump?
Ad hominem argument? That's your best shot?
When it's an opinion, noting bias tracks.
He’s also just been very dumb in recent years. If you’re going to debate legal issues, don’t highlight the opinion of the dumb guy (especially if the opinion is posted in a dumb outlet like The Hill). Ask someone not dumb: Ken White, Ari Cohn, Adam Steinbaugh, Jeff Kosseff, etc. Lots of not dumb first amendment people who probably are very skeptical of the suit.
Ad Hominem argument. Ad hominem Argument.
Cool. Turley is still very dumb and doesn’t have a lot of credibility. Like I said lots of better people to articulate this position who you can trust isn’t just making stuff up.
Turley is certainly not "dumb," by any stretch.
He's indisputably smart, and generally leftish-libertarian overall.
Even if there's room to critique his reasoning at times, it doesn't make him somehow absurd or beyond the pale.
Good grief.
But only generally leftish, not relentlessly, which is enough for the left to view him as an idiot.
Let's demonstrate why ad hominem arguments are non-informative.
LawTalkingGuy is still very dumb and doesn't have a lot of credibility. Thus, any argument he makes are also very dumb, and obviously wrong, because LawTalkingGuy is very dumb.
See how this works?
From American Heritage:
Pray differentiate your "noting bias."
Lol! Everyone on the internet had to take Intro to Logic as a gen ed requirement, learning logical fallacies, but sadly not many went on to take any other classes in that topic, so they didn't learn about little things like *inductive logic.* If they did they'd know it's perfectly appropriate to assume that a person who has peddled a lot of crap for a long time is probably peddling crap still. But hey, jump up and down and recite Latin words some more if it makes you feel smart!
Ergo QA is peddling crap still, quod erat demonstrandum.
Somebody's balloon got popped.
No amount of whining about "inductive logic" stops an ad hominem argument from being an ad hominem argument. It just means you are still whining over your balloon getting popped.
See, this is what happens when you just take that Gen Ed class. An ad hominen fallacy only means, as a matter of deductive logic, that an argument does not fail because of something about the arguer. But as a matter of inductive logic it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that someone who's said as many stupid, whorish things as Turley is making a stupid, whorish argument at any given time. Now, take your balloon pieces and run along.
The stronger people feel about something, the less capable they become at determining who's credible to speak on it.
That's my induction.
Inductive logic means that if Trump says that the sky is blue, and Trump's often full of shit, then you can conclude that the sky is orange?
What logic class did you learn that in?
Queenie, do you agree that critical thinking principles should be supreme in legal decisions?
I agree that you're some weird autistic incel.
Sneed
Nope. Lame excuse. Rather typical around here.
Try to engage Turley's argument without worrying about who he is. Unless you think he is distorting the facts -- pretty hard when he links to the judge's opinion he is commenting on -- who said it counts for little.
Yeah, I screwed that up. I didn't read the OP carefully enough, and thought there was more appealing to Turley's position than there was.
When someone offers what is a purportedly expert opinion I'm entitled to question their credentials, their alleged expertise, and their professionalism.
"Someone" criticized a decision of a district court, which he linked to. Anyone is free to read the decision and Turley's opinion on it and come to his own conclusion. Turley's credentials have nothing to do with it, and the ad hominem argument is simply a lazy way of dealing with the issue.
Understood. You have no arguments and nothing to say.
We all know that it's less about content and more about the political party of the speaker.
Hows this for a deal? We have a random 'inciting tweet' from Trump and one from a Dem politician but with names and identifying info removed. And then a person off the street who doesn't follow politics gets to pick which one goes to jail. What do you say progs?
Sounds dumb . . . Clingers should love it.
You guys are all ignoring the facts. If Trump had just randomly shown up in front of a pre-existing protest and said what he said, that might be comparable to Waters. And no one would've cared. Free speech.
But that's not what happened. He organized Jan 6 himself, weeks in advance, with not-so-veiled promises of opportunities for violence. This case isn't just about speech. With Trump, there are elements of premeditation, intent, and conduct that just aren't there in the whataboutist speech-only examples by Democrats.
"with not-so-veiled promises of opportunities for violence."
So veiled that only left-wingers could see them at all. Face it, at this point your priors are overcoming your senses to the point where he could say, "Nice day, isn't it?" and you'd be convinced he was clearly demanding his followers go on a genocidal rampage.
Of course, you can prove me wrong by producing these unveiled promised of opportunities for violence. I'm interested to see what you come up with.
If what Trump said about the election being stolen right then was true, and if as he said we could stop it, *I* would have thought violence was justified and gone to the Capitol to do something about it.
Sarcastro, saying something has happened that somebody else perceives as a valid reason to get violent is not remotely the same thing as "making not so veiled promises of opportunities for violence".
How is it not? 'this is a thing you worthy of being violent about' seems like it is indeed a promise of an opportunity for violence.
I really don't know how to explain it to you, if you simply don't understand English in the first place. Certainly I know you have a really, really hard time comprehending anything more complex than "yes" and "no", at times. But I'll give it a try.
Let's say that I talk to you about the Uyghur genocide in China. Genocide, that's certainly something worthy of being violent about, if it were going on in the next state over I'd be hard put to justify not joining the rush to stop it.
Have I promised you an opportunity for violence, by discussing it? Not unless I offered you a plane ticket to China.
Obviously "describing something worthy of responding to with violence" and "offering an opportunity for violence" are, thus, distinct concepts, no?
And that's not even getting into the subjective element, that he's describing something YOU deem worthy of violence, but that perception of yours isn't an element of HIS speech.
Impressive over the top condescension to point out that you need both the excuse and the opportunity.
Seems pretty damming to Trump though.
Impressive exercise in selective comprehension.
Your example of the Uyghur genocide points out that spatial as well as temporal propinquity is required.
Trump had both, so I don't know if you realized it, but your argument clarifies who the group that could be guilty are, and then includes Trump in it.
Trump saying if he's reelected he'll pardon all the Jan 06 insurrectionists seems not exactly calculated to cool things off for 2024 either.
Leaders don't leave the wounded on the battlefield.
Its the same reason he pardoned Stone and Manafort.
This isn't war.
Consequences matter.
You're a partisan political sociopath.
"You're a partisan political sociopath."
How you can accuse anyone else of that with a straight face is beyond me.
Bob has earned it, XD. Long-timers here are well aware of his political worldview.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/02/21/federal-court-bars-federal-agencies-from-considering-the-costs-of-climate-change-in-agency-rulemakings/?comments=true#comment-9367125
Here's a great example. Will to power is all he cares about.
Don't worry. I bet Democrats in the South said the same about the people "causing anger between blacks and whites" in the 50's agree with you completely.
Yes, it is.
I used this example before: let's suppose someone has spent months telling anyone who will listen that the guy who moved into the blue house at the end of the street is a child molester. He tweets about it, he puts up fliers around the neighborhood about it, and he tells people about it — more and more angrily. And he rants that the police and courts are refusing to do anything about it.
Then, after a few months of this, he tells everyone to come to a big rally outside the guy's house. And at this rally, he continues his ranting and raving — invites other speakers there to rant and rave on his behalf about it — and tells them that the blue house guy has grabbed a kid from the playground and has that kid in the house with him right at that very moment! He reiterates that the police are refusing to do anything, and that something has to be done before it's too late.
If he's telling the truth, then violence would be justified. It would be legitimate for the mob to break down the guy's door and do whatever it takes to rescue the kid.
And claiming that's not what he intended or wanted would be so ridiculous that nobody would accept it. And him perfunctorily saying, "Of course, you shouldn't hurt him, but…" would not in any way vitiate that incitement.
Can you compare and contrast the ethics of Trump saying the election was stolen from him with Hilary saying it was stolen from her?
Well let's see. Hillary conceded. Trump still hasn't.
It's one thing to complain about the process but then let it go for the good of the country, like Hillary did and Gore before her. It's totally different to refuse to accept the verdict of the voters and the courts. As much as people hated Trump, they accepted that he was in fact president. There are loads of people who still think Biden's not even actually the president, because Trump will never let this go.
"Hillary conceded."
??? That interview was in 2019.
"As much as people hated Trump, they accepted that he was in fact president."
Does the phrase 'Not my president' ring any bells?
"let it go for the good of the country"
I vociferously agree that politicians - of both parties - need to do that.
Do you think Hillary unconceded in 2019?
Not my President is not the same as not *the* President.
Some said this about Trump, but not many. But Obama and Biden both have this issue.
Something about a big part of the GOP - they can't allow that the opposition they so demonize gets to win elections legitimately.
"Do you think Hillary unconceded in 2019?"
Your view is that saying the election was stolen is OK, as long as you make a pro forma concession first? In terms of us all accepting the results of elections, that seems like an odd position to take.
"Not my President is not the same as not *the* President."
Assuming you are an American citizen, can you explain more about the difference between 'the president' and 'your president'? I always thought there was only one president at a time. If the current US president isn't your president, who is?
Your view is that saying the election was stolen is OK, as long as you make a pro forma concession first?
Oh my god, yes! Concede, and then complain all you want. That's the way it's been for hundreds of years.
"Not my president" is a way of expressing the view that the President doesn't represent you. Most Presidents, including Reagan, make a point of trying to be "President for all Americans." Not Trump. He kept up his intentionally divisive politics even as President.
It's not a statement that the President isn't actually president... largely for the reasons you said. Nobody thinks there are multiple presidents at a time. If you think the President isn't actually president, you say they're "not the President." "Not my president" means something different.
What Sarcastr0 said. Also, saying "the election was stolen because the FBI biased it unfairly against me so Trump won the final vote and I conceded to him" is, unless you're an idiot or troll, not remotely comparable to "the election was stolen via fraud, I actually won more votes, and I'm the true president."
Every election loser has some excuse for why they got fewer votes that their opponent, and they often use the term "stolen" to describe that excuse. Trump is going further by claiming that he actually got more votes than Biden in various states that he lost. Hillary never contested the actual count, just the unfairness of the process leading up to it.
In other words, Hillary's saying "I should've won, but I didn't."
Trump is saying "I did win."
BIG difference there.
Hilary Clinton, the day after the 2016 election:
Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for and I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.
Did Hillary gin up an angry mob and tell them to march to the Capitol to intimidate then-Vice-president Biden?
She told the CIA to brief the Electoral College on her phony Russia collusion hoax in an attempt to suborn their votes.
Cute?
"She told the CIA to brief the Electoral College on her phony Russia collusion hoax in an attempt to suborn their votes."
Evidence?
There are so many ways that doesn't make sense that nobody could have been stupid enough to think it.
They did go hog wild in DC on inauguration day to attempt to stop the legal transfer of power in 2016.
His target audience took them as not-so-veiled promised of violence. I mean, I knew that Jan 6 was going to be violent. Everybody (except for some reason the Capitol Police) knew. And Trump knew that's how his entreaties to "Be there, will be wild!" were getting interpreted.
If you are planning to attend peaceful protests in DC on the 6th, i recommend wearing a body camera. The more video angles of that day the better.
When you tweet something like that at self-described militias, it only means one thing. The only veiled aspect is that he left off the sarcasm-quotes around "peaceful," but that's the only way the tweet makes sense (and certainly how it was interpreted by his followers, and how he knew it would be interpreted).
He sent tweet after tweet encouraging people to come to Jan 6. It's a very different fact pattern than anything from the left.
He encouraged people to attend a rally.. oh noes. Its without precedent!
Ok well, let me know when Maxine Waters organizes her own personal BLM protest, gives the keynote speech, and foments a riot.
"foments a riot"
Assuming the conclusion.
Walters has organized rallies too, campaign and protest. And I assume encouraged people to attend.
Cites for her organizational activities otherwise you are just blow smoke.
"When you tweet something like that at self-described militias, it only means one thing."
Indeed it does: "We're expecting left-wingers to show up and do things ranging from faking violence against themselves, to attacking us. [Both have happened at Trump rallies.] We need to be able to document exactly what happened."
Look, if you're planning on committing crimes, rather than anticipating crimes being committed against you, you don't take care to document what happens! It's people who anticipate being innocent who want a good record of what goes down.
Or, if the documentation is already assured, you work to make people plenty paranoid about the perfidious opposition.
Look at the bullshit about Jan 06 being FBI instigated, (or before that all Antifa).
Yeah, you can always rationalize away the evidence that you're wrong, if you assume it just derives from stupidity or bizarre motives.
"Look at the bullshit about Jan 06 being FBI instigated"
Am I imagining it, or haven't you already admitted that the FBI occasionally is responsible for instigating terror plots, in their efforts to have some legal basis for taking out of circulation people they expect to eventually act on their own? Or to put it less charitably, they entrap people?
Haven't we already established that they use notes instead of recordings when interviewing people, because it lets them lie about what was said during interviews?
The debate over whether the FBI does unethical, and sometimes illegal, things, was over a long while ago. We're just discussing whether they did this particular unethical, illegal thing.
Your faith in their probity and impartiality is touching.
I require particularized evidence to believe particularized things.
You should do the same.
I said "promises of opportunities for violence." What you just laid out fits that description perfectly.
Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guys, even when they obviously are. Trump's not going to say "come to Jan 6 and we'll all do violent crimes together!" He'll say what he said: come to Jan 6 and be prepared for violence because of perceived enemies, grievances, paranoia, blah blah etc etc. That's the way you draw a crowd that's ready to rumble.
"His target audience took them as not-so-veiled promised of violence. I mean, I knew that Jan 6 was going to be violent. Everybody (except for some reason the Capitol Police) knew. And Trump knew that's how his entreaties to "Be there, will be wild!" were getting interpreted."
Yet he offered and heavily suggested increased Nat'l Guard presence on that day...
Do it! I’ve never worried too much about these comparisons as long as enough of the passage is included for context. You exist under the mistaken belief that people dislike Trump for no good reason. He’s worked hard to create that milieu because he sees it as a benefit to him.
Politics aside, Isn't it kinda scary that we're expanding the definition of incitement from actually talking about violence ie actually saying to burn and break things to mindreading certain ways of saying 'go protest'.
I mean I know you leftists hate trump but this is sort of like burning down the forest to catch the squirrel, and its starting to seem more and more like indiscriminate destruction for petty vengeance. Are you really so confident that you can retain control of the system forever to protect your people with the type of precedent this will set?
"Politics aside, Isn't it kinda scary that we're expanding the definition of incitement from actually talking about violence ie actually saying to burn and break things to mindreading certain ways of saying 'go protest'."
Yup. Brandenburg, by its terms, applies to advocacy of violence, not to any speech that one can speculate might lead to violence.
Actually, it applies to advocacy of imminent lawless action, not merely violence.
David. Wasn't Brandenburg decided by scumbag lawyers on the Ivy indoctrinated Supreme Court? It is garbage. Schenk was written by OW Holmes. He has never been shown to have been wrong. Schenk is no exception.
Fair enough, but no one is suggesting Trump advocated imminent lawless action.
The Plaintiffs in the three suits subject to Judge Mehta's ruling are suggesting Trump advocated imminent lawless action. The objective was to prevent Congress from certifying the electoral count pursuant to 3 U.S.C. 15.
And they lack standing to complaint about that.
How do they lack standing? See pages 17 through 22 of the District Court opinion.
I didn't say they lack standing to bring the suit. I said they lack standing to enforce that statute.
"The Plaintiffs in the three suits subject to Judge Mehta's ruling are suggesting Trump advocated imminent lawless action."
Only, not imminently imminently. More of a long before and shortly afterwards sort of imminently.
Shortly afterwards is...yeah, that's imminent?
For a guy using the handle "Sarcastr0"...
I mean, that's literally exactly what people are suggesting. That's the gravamen of this lawsuit.
It's never politics aside with you.
And no, the definition isn't expanding - the court hasn't said Trump incited anything; and it looks like the same old test is being used for this threshold inquiry.
Detune your victimization whining.
"what-aboutism"
"victimization whining"
The fearless champions of equal rights / civil rights are singing a different tune all of sudden. Odd...
My point is that people are taking this ruling as something it isn't.
Your argument is just yelling double standard and then leaving without supporting your point.
As I said, victimization is the main identity of the GOP these days; no need to lay out a factual predicate, they feel it strongly enough that invoking it is proof enough.
All that stuff limits power. They used it to advantage when others were in office. Now they have power and they don’t want any limits.
In the stories they tell themselves, nothing ever goes wrong. They’re the heroes because they are good and smart and everyone else is dumb and evil. Smart means whatever they decide is right and will always be right, and anyone who would question any of their choices is a Nazi or some other bogeyman.
To be fair, Judge Mehta's point is that just because someone else arguably committed a crime does not get the defendant in that case off. If Maxine Waters had been prosecuted, and a court had let her off because of a 1st Amendment defense, then the argument would have more weight.
what about an entire political party going unprosecuted for the same alleged crime millions of times over? I think that also should get a little more weight on whether Trump did anything wrong.
Selective prosecution in a criminal case can be a defense, albeit one that is quite difficult to establish. This, however, is a civil suit. Whether parties not before the court have made statements for which they have not been sued is not germane to the decision.
"what about an entire political party going unprosecuted for the same alleged crime millions of times over?"
I sincerely hope you don't spend any time wondering why people mock you.
Also I'd love to see you guys make the same argument in the context of BLM. So what if white dudes aren't prosecuted as often for the same crime? The laws the law!
I know. Folks are going nuts about the video of a black kid being handcuffed after getting in a fight in a mall. The cops clearly had probable cause to detain him.
But people are all like, what about the white kid that was on top of him, you just led him over to a couch and sat him down!
People just love their whataboutism.
Haven't seen the incident you're talking about, but legal and proportionate/appropriate are two different things.
This, I assume.
Could have done without the editorializing before showing us what happened. Looks to me like the kid who obeyed police orders got sat down on a couch, and the kid who resisted got taken down.
Where did the black kid resist? I don’t see it.
It's not the best video, I'll give you that.
The bigots attracted by this blog loved that video.
Conservative racists need to get their laughs when and where they can these days, thanks to the culture war.
OK, Boomer. The resignation or STFU. You, an old, white, male supremacist need to be replaced by a diverse. All old, white, males are supremacists. They cannot help it.
Hi Amos. You keep talking about prosecution, but that's irrelevant to the issue here. While there's an argument that Pres. Trump should be prosecuted for his remarks, I don't find it terribly convincing and doubt that he would be convicted. A civil suit is an entirely different thing. If there's someone w/standing who wishes to sue Rep. Waters or anyone else, they may do so and let the system sort it out.
It is actually a bit worse than Turley portrays it. The venue for criminal investigations of Trump are in Washington and NYC, where it would be impossible to pick juries that would consider acquittal, no matter what facts are presented. It is easy to see things eventually reaching a point where all Republican Presidents will be charged and convicted of thought crimes after leaving office as a matter of routine.
If the bias is as evident as you say, a change of venue will be easy to request.
But I actually don't think DC is as full of rabid partisans as you say.
Some of the January 6 criminal defendants have sought a change of venue. The District Courts have typically reserved that issue until voir dire is taken.
Washington is all diverses, hate filled, overly entitled blacks or gays. No regular people live in Washington DC.
Awful autistic authoritarian.
Easy to request, easy to deny.
Take your meds.
And again, no argument from you. You have nothing to say.
Old man shakes fist at clouds.
If someone wants to sue Maxine Waters, or Hillary Clinton, or Ayanna Pressley, then their statements will be relevant, but this lawsuit is about Trump. And nobody, by the way, has suggested they can't be sued if someone thinks they have a case. But that lawsuit is not this lawsuit.
The judge got it exactly right. Somebody else's bad behavior is not a defense. We need a rule that says that anybody who invokes what aboutism is automatically deemed to have lost the argument.
True. Courts decide cases or controversies, based on the record developed by the parties before the court. The comments of those not before the court are mere red herrings, not germane to the decision.
Of course, what-about red herrings are all that Trumpworld has. Trump's conduct is indefensible.
not guilty, you are really failing to understand what half this country understands about Trump.
not guilty, this is a review of the Equal Protection in the Fifth Amendment. Prosecution of political opponents is more Russia, not America.
https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2641&context=nclr
Uh, these are tort suits. The Plaintiffs are free to choose whom to sue.
Trump is not being prosecuted, at least not yet.
Agree here. This case is about the former President, not about what others may or may not have done.
The relevance of arguably similar statements by other speakers is not that a tort is excused if other people commit it but whether the statement is protected by the First Amendment. Line drawing regarding protected speech is notoriously subjective and circumstance-specific. It is routine for courts to explore factual variations, including by drawing on other statements that may or may not have resulted in litigation.
Suppose you were conducting appellate argument in a First Amendment speech case. Your opponent spends her whole argument debating hypotheticals and fact patterns from prior cases with the panel. You stand up and begin your argument with "we need a rule that says that anybody who invokes what aboutism is automatically deemed to have lost the argument." Following a long, embarrassing silence, not another thing you say will be taken seriously.
If "line drawing regarding protected speech is notoriously subjective and circumstance-specific," that would seem to suggest that others' speech in other circumstances is even less relevant than if it were being used to excuse a tort.
Yes and no. The fact that someone else was allowed to shout fire in a crowded theater without consequence does not transform shouting fire in a crowded theater into protected speech. Any more than the fact that someone else got away with murder transforms murder into protected activity.
But because, to my knowledge, no one has filed a lawsuit against Maxine Waters we don’t even have that lawsuit to use as precedent. It’s not that your precedent is inapposite; it doesn’t even exist.
Suppose there is an appellate argument over whether the instant three complaints state a plausible claim that Trump's speech is without First Amendment protection. Do you claim that there are relevant fact patterns from prior cases? If so, discussion of those facts is fair game. That is not what we have here.
What-about thus and such is no defense to liability.
Something only a true hypocrite would say.
And since you have nothing to offer except what aboutism that’s pretty much what I’d expect you to say.
This is known as the "Fallacy Fallacy" or the "argument from fallacy", and it is itself a logical fallacy.
So under your proposed "automatic loss" for use of the tu quoque fallacy, how should we handle your usage of the argument from fallacy?
I was proposing it as a procedural rule, not as a rule of logic.
Can one actually incite an event that has been in process for some time?
Or is that just one more of Trump's super powers?
One can add fuel to a fire that is already burning.
But what if the individual being sued actually started the change of events. Trump started whole mess by his conspiracy that the election was stolen from him. The January 6th insurrection was just the climax of events set in motion months before.
The election was stolen, starting in 1965.
Huh??
The point is, once you decide the incitement doesn't actually have to be immediately prior to the event to have incited it, where do you draw the line?
You're acting like the line has something to do with what was actually said. Its bad because of who said it, Trump, and also can be bad if the speech professes something contrary to the liberal regime viewpoint.
That's the actual line. The incitement part is just gas lighting. Just like calling J6 an "insurrection".
They're almost at the point of just skipping the BS and saying what they really mean out loud based on dismissing the comparison to Waters speech.
You have to start at beginning. January 6th was not an isolated day. We know that there was a planned effort to deny the American people the right to choose their President. That plan included planting conspiracy theories in people's head. A portion of the people who came to Washington DC on January 6th were primed for violence and the speaker including the President, exploited that fact.
So, I say the President involvement began earlier and there is evidence to show this fact.
Unmoderate4ever: I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with - geometric logic - that Trump planned the Capitol breach from the beginning.
The plaintiffs disclaimed any argumemt that what Trump said in previous days constituted incitement
That does not meet the definition of incitement.
Isn't the standard of this latest ruling well below 'Trump is liable for incitement.' It just said there exist some facts that could be proven that allow Trump to be liable.
But the knee-jerk defenses gotta wind up for something more exciting than that.
Agree here. Nothing that says Trump will be held liable, just a statement that the case can proceed.
Judge Mehta's Brandenburg analysis is in the context of plausibility under Bell Atlantic Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544 (2007). As the opinion states at page 83, "Plaintiffs sometimes suggest that the President engaged in criminal conduct, but what is before the court is a civil conspiracy, and it would be imprudent for the court to assess whether factual allegations in a civil complaint make out criminal conduct. Even the low probablecause standard is higher than Rule 8’s plausibility standard."
The Plaintiffs' burden of proving liability at trial will be by a preponderance of evidence.
"I think the court's decision would likely apply only to situations where some people already appear to be gathered and prepared to engage in imminent illegal conduct, so that might not include the Clinton and Pressley examples. But it might well cover a repeat of the Waters example (whether it's addressed to gathered crowds in person or remotely), and others like it."
The violence at the Capitol had already started while the President was still speaking to his supporters. You obviously are not uptodate on what happened on January 6th but still give a legal opinion based on the bullshit narrative from the leftwing media. How dishonest to your readers.
I'm re-reading what you said and maybe i'm reading it wrong. But, I stand by my assertion that so many writers here have a "but Trump" exception on laws in order to try to convict Trump for what the agitators at the Capitol did on January 6th.
You're obviously reading it wrong, since
you're CindyFthis post isn't about convicting Trump of anything.IOKIYAR is not a maxim of constitutional interpretation, Cindy.
Whataboutism is core to the 14th amendment’s equal protection clause as is stare decisis.
Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection is not at issue in the lawsuits against Trump. The Plaintiffs are not state actors, and there is no one, similarly situated to Trump, who has injured these Plaintiffs but not been sued.
Or am I failing to appreciate a comment under Poe's Law?
That "what-aboutism," however, is precisely the point. The selective imposition of liability for speech is the very thing that the First Amendment is designed to prevent.
But my prediction is that the results that apply to Trump will quickly be applied to lots of other speakers in contexts where some attendees at a political rally act illegally.
If that were not EV talking it would be tempting to call it fatuous. At least to a first approximation, facts of cases must be considered before anyone can reasonably claim selective enforcement. In the right-wing-favored catalogue of civil unrest, the evidence of conspiracy by Trump has no close approximation. At most, you have elsewhere utterances in support of events which subsequently turned violent—thus, more or less what EV is quoted as saying.
Where elsewhere is the elaborate pre-meditation alleged against President Trump and his supporters, with all the predicted claims, contemporaneous claims, and post-election claims of election theft. Where elsewhere are the like of President Trump's gratuitous remarks invoking violence, made to various audiences at various times? Where elsewhere is anything to match President Trump's attempted election-rigging call in Georgia? Where elsewhere is anything to match the forged electoral college ballots? Where elsewhere is there anything like an apparently sober presidential review of illegal ballot seizures. Where elsewhere is there a violent attack on the national Capitol? Where elsewhere is the like of former-President Trump's public reiteration that VP Pence was indeed empowered to overturn the election result?
President Trump's defenders, including EV, apparently want to narrow the scope of discussion to the words spoken outside the White House, and put all the other developing evidence as far out of the picture as possible. By that insistence, they hope to make it plausible to say what EV said in that second quote above—that other comparable cases of legal action will ensue.
Given the unprincipled approach Republicans have brought to their political gamesmanship, no one can say for sure that EV does not predict accurately. Republicans do indeed threaten to do baselessly—as tit-for-tat retaliation—what Democrats have done with good cause. It is reasonable to be concerned that Republicans will do it again. Nothing can be done about that, except to urge voters to choose better leaders, and to rely on the courts throw out whatever baseless claims get made.
But there is no point to insist the cases are comparable, or that Republican retaliation would be justified. It is a nonsense claim. No President in American history has ever compiled a comparable record of gratuitous malfeasance in office, much of it apparently criminal. No lesser public figure has ever even been positioned to approach Trump's now-public outrages.
Selective enforcement is sometimes raised as a pre-trial defense in criminal proceedings -- though such a defense succeeding is vanishingly rare. It has no application to a damage claim. If a Plaintiff sues fewer than all who have injured him, that is his prerogative.
As regards Trump's criminal exposure, I think that DOJ should not attempt to prove Trump's vicarious liability for the breach of the Capitol. The offense of attempting to corruptly influence an official proceeding of Congress was complete on January 4 when Trump, John Eastman and others importuned Mike Pence to unilaterally reject several states' valid slates of electors. The subsequent events, including Trump's conduct on January 6, are probative of corrupt intent.
"But there is no point to insist the cases are comparable, or that Republican retaliation would be justified."
We have to have basic objective ground rules that do not depend on anyone's ideological/partisan "filter" or prism.
Half the country, including many smart people of good faith, simply do not agree with your weighing of relative severities here. (One could try to dispute the sanity or honesty of some...but that doesn't work for *all* of them.)
What are you claiming exactly: the existence of smart people of good faith who believe that Maxine Waters is to some extent responsible for actual BLM malfeasance?
Or that some smart people of good faith believe that Trump was in no way responsible for Jan 6?
Or both?
I guess I find the latter easier to believe than the former. (The existence of such people, not the actual statement. Although I would hesitate before calling them smart.)
Or are you just saying that there are people who agree with Turley? Turley's argument is a strawman. Believe it, don't believe it, it's an irrelevancy.
it is
so true
Jon "Even The Liberal Law Professor" Turley!
"The brains behind the whole scheme was Mark Glaze, a third-year Dean’s Fellow at the Law School. He said he placed a call and left a message with Turley’s secretary, asking to meet with the professor.
Glaze said he mentioned in the call that he was not a student of Turley’s. Thirteen minutes later, Glaze’s roommate called the same number posing as an ABC television representative. While Glaze waited for Turley to call back, the professor returned the call to the student he thought was ABC 32 minutes later."
Yet I bet you think it's irrelevant that Maxine Waters also incited people to riot.
It's irrelevant unless and until someone sues her for it.
Exactly what do you think an anecdote about some law school prank has to do with any of this?
It amusingly demonstrates that Turley is a stupid media whore.
Turley is not routinely sought out for advice by conservatives.
Borderline retard Laurence Tribe is sought out by Democrats. And he is an absolute idiot.
More like an inapt analogy.
"Glaze said he mentioned in the call that he was not a student of Turley’s"
Why would Turley want to meet with a non-student rando?
"That "what-aboutism," however, is precisely the point. The selective imposition of liability for speech is the very thing that the First Amendment is designed to prevent."
I know you're a very smart man but this is a stupid take. No, speech unprotected by the First Amendment is not protected by the First Amendment. Ignore the partisan aspect and ask yourself whether a prosecutor could choose to charge one person for fraudulent speech but decline to charge another. If they can do that, they have discretion regarding speech that's unlawfully inciting. They're allowed to decide that deterring future presidents from similar courses of action is the more important thing to do, for example.
What speech is unprotected by the first amendment? And here's a clue its not "fire in a theater".
And its certainly not "go peacefully" to have your voice heard.
See how absurd this gets when you make stuff up against those you disagree with politically?
Fighting words is the exception. They have to be personal and imminent. Was Waters addressing a mob? Were there mobs roaming our cities harassing folks?
Wrong person is on trial
I dunno, the answer to "But X and Y did the same thing and they weren't prosecuted" is usually "They could've been, but that doesn't make what Z did any less illegal."
Professor Turkey makes the mistake of assuming President Trump’s speech was the only thing he did. It was far from the only thing he did.
The plaintiffs are alleging President Trump assembled an army and sent them into battle. It’s not necessary to make a speech to the troops before sending off to fight. And if one does, the contents of the speech have no relevance at all, except to the extent they provide evidence of the underlying organization.
If plaintiffs are right, the situation is totally different from one where someone enters into a situation and speaks extemporaneously.
If one looks at nothing more than the contents of some pre-battle speech he gave Confederate troops and completely ignores his other actions, one could argue that what General Lee did was also completely protected by the first amendment. By the contents of his words alone, it might be unreasonable to assume Lee had any idea that the crowd he spoke to would start fighting federal troops as a result of what he said. His speech might well compare with other fiery rhetoric recognized as constitutionally protected.
And yet, Lee’s role in the Confederate Army wasn’t that of a mere casual bystander who came upon the scene and gave an extemporaneous speech. His role wasn’t just giving a speech. To pretend it was nothing more than that gravely misapprehends what was going on.
One might as well say Eichman was doing nothing more than running a railroad. Indeed, one can imagine some Professor Turkey comparing Eichman’s behavior to other rairlroads where snafus made the passengers uncomfortable during the journey and argue that as a common carrier, Eichman should get immunity for, can’t be held legally responsible for, what happens with the passengers after the journey is over. (Recall that Professor Volokh recently quoted exactly this common carrier immunity principle favorably in arguing social media should be classified similarly.)
The plaintiffs are alleging that, like Lee and Eichman, Trump was intending to do more than just make a speech, more than just transport supporters, that he had a specific end in mind from the beginning and worked to make that end happen.
At the motion to dismiss stage, the plaintiffs get a chance to prove their case.
"The plaintiffs are alleging President Trump assembled an army and sent them into battle."
Well, then, let's see if the plaintiffs have any actual evidence of this. I'm betting not, or the DOJ would have already brought criminal charges against him. After all, the 'army' were apparently under intense surveillance even prior to the attack, if they'd been communicating with Trump they'd have the goods on him.
Maybe not, but people being mad at the threshold determination is a telling example of the knee-jerk defense of Trump some really seem to enjoy.
You are absolutely correct about the reflexive Trumplove, but in a Newtonian world there is an equal and opposite reaction - in this case a reflexive anti-Trump hyperbole. I’m not paying that much attention to this because it’s impossible to get news on 1/6 from an unbiased news source (and because my desire is for the Trumpistas and the progressives to take it to a desert island where we can isolate their poison away) but if this lawsuit actually does claim he “assembled an army and sent them into battle” it should absolutely and immediately be dismissed as ridiculously unprovable.
The argument I see is Trump was negligent in the Office on Jan 06. Not many are arguing he's guilty of criminal incitement.
Granted, this place isn't a full sampling, but there is absolutely an asymmetry here, not an equal and opposite reaction.
Negligence is not at issue here. The principal gravamen of the complaints is 42 U.S.C. 1985(1), which states:
"Well, then, let's see if the plaintiffs have any actual evidence of this. I'm betting not, or the DOJ would have already brought criminal charges against him."
The Plaintiffs in the lawsuit under consideration are not estopped by Merrick Garland's lack (to this point) of testicular fortitude.
Right, the guy who's ready to treat parents complaining at school board meetings as a domestic terror threat lacks the guts to indict an ex President of the opposing party he hypothetically has open and shut evidence against. [/sarc]
The fact is, they have, as far as anybody can see, squat in the way of evidence that Trump was involved in the January 6th riot in any legally cognizable way.
Even the claim he incited it relies on statements either long before the attack, or after it had already began.
Again, we're back in "The dog incited the Son of Sam murders!" territory.
Trump: "You should gather here and then go attack the Capitol!"
Brett: "I don't see any evidence that Trump was involved in the attack on the Capitol."
The chef's kiss of Brett's post, though, is this part:
He posted this before, a week or so ago. I linked to the actual document that said nothing like what Brett claimed. Brett's response was, "Well, even if they didn't say it, we all know that's what they meant." (Paraphrased.)
But now, when Trump actually did say it, Brett's response is "Well, we can't read anything into the words he used."
"Trump: "You should gather here and then go attack the Capitol!""
Feel free to provide Trump saying anything remotely approaching that.
When Don Corleone says that the family would be better off without someone, he never actually orders the person killed in so many words, but he in fact orders the person killed. Context is everything in criminal conspiracies. Most criminal organization leaders with any intelligence know that you don’t organize and order assaults in so many words.
Professor Turkey’s approach would have the First Amendment completely protect Don Corleone, indeed any organized crime leader.
The Wannssee Conference memorandum, which outline the inter-agency agreement by which the Final Solution was implemented, never spoke of killing Jews as such. It too would be exempt. As former Chancellor Kohl once said in reading it, it reads just like an ordinary bureaucratic document of the sort he himself was used to preparing.
Yeah, figured you were talking "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest" type hits. And without the element of having, you know, actually having established that Trump is a crime boss.
So, about Bernie's level of guilt in the House baseball shooting. Or the dog's guilt in the Son of Sam murders, really.
Most people's take on the "turbulent priest" episode wasn't that Henry was completely innocent in the death of Becket. Just the opposite, in fact.
I mean, he did it all right out in the open.
Where "it" is legal stuff, not running a branch of the Mafia.
You call Hillary a felon, but you think Trump was all legal?
STFU.
Well, I can identify felonies that Hillary committed. Not so much in Trump's case.
We can start with the 6 instances of Obstruction of Justice identified by Mueller.
You know - the ones which had supporting evidence proving all aspects of the crimes necessary to prosecute.
Or we can once again talk about him being un-indicted co-conspirator #1. That crime was also a felony.
Where did you get your tin foil hat? Seems like a really good one.
The new activist judicial thing is to treat political speech they oppose differently than that they agree with.
That blinded folded lady justice holding a scale is pretty good analogy of how it should be.
Its a regular thing with the J6 protestors but Professor Volokh and the Reason crew either won't cover it or maybe Nick forbids it.
I guess paragraphs are part of the liberal conspiracy now...
We try to break things down into small bits so you can understand, but it does not seem to help.
"Professor Turkey’s approach would have the First Amendment completely protect Don Corleone, indeed any organized crime leader."
AND?
I would prefer to have the First Amendment protect everybody instead of only protecting people who the government supports.
Canada is already showing how bad of an idea that is.
Comparing Trump to Nazis isn't really original any more (was it ever?).
How about comparing him to Catiline? Or if that's too fancy, how about Benedict Arnold?
I don't think he's a Nazi, just extremely popular with them.
They're particularly enamored of how his daughter married a Jewish guy and converted to Judaism herself.
Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos.
Trumpism, without the solipsistic tautology, not so much.
TDS, writ large.
Personally, I'm done with Nazi comparisons. After the President's latest nominee to the Department of Energy, Brinton, we're well into Caligula territory.
When folks say we're turning into a Banana Republic here is an example. You prosecute the speech of those you disagree with.
In this case the imagined incitement by Trump, "go peacefully" is made up to be incitement.
The actual literal fighting words by Waters are ignored.
Trump is not being prosecuted. Maybe you should learn something about the subject before commenting?
Weird times. Folks are challenging the label liberal for Turley because he is supporting free speech?
So now liberals apparently are against free speech
"Even the Liberal" Turley!"
He can't help it, his talking points have such lines in them.
Yeah, have you not been paying attention for roughly the last decade?
I read Professor Volokh's linked article on his position.
I agree with his conclusion, that Trump is not liable, but the BLM example is laughable.
BLM protestors can Burn and loot and throw in a few Murders with impunity most times. The issue is unequal application of the law. Very unequal. I think if they caught you on video murdering somebody you might get prosecuted.
If you are caught on video defending yourself form BLM protestors who want to murder you yo get charged
It's a Putin doesn't like his political opponents level of unequal. Maybe worse?
That's the problem. It won't chill speech on both sides. Just one.
"It's a Putin doesn't like his political opponents level of unequal."
Same will to power. But it’s really more like old time Jim Crow level of unequal: motivated by hatred. Putin‘s motivations seem to be about advantage for Putin, with no obvious hatred of the other in the mix.
"I think if they caught you on video murdering somebody you might get prosecuted."
Yeah, but you get a sentence reduction for having murdered them in a good cause.
No way letting people sue a politician for "incitement" won't backfire on liberals. Un-possible.
As long as the DC Circuit continues to be as Leftist as it has been, it won't backfire on the Leftists.
The whole county is not the DC circuit.
Turley mentored Michael Avenatti.
Damming.
That "what-aboutism," however, is precisely the point. The selective imposition of liability for speech is the very thing that the First Amendment is designed to prevent.
That amounts to presumption that the often-spurious argument, "this case is identical to that case," will be resolved affirmatively in every case. And with the answer to that question assumed, you slide effortlessly toward, "No point in distinguishing these cases; they are presumed identical."
To assert argument by analogy ought to have power to decide cases substantively is unwise. Whenever one case is analogized to another, the party doing it ought to be challenged afterward to remake the argument entirely—on the basis of facts which pertain only to the case in question—which is to say to demonstrate that the case stands on its own, without need to rely on the analogy.
That's not how law works.
If you can provide virtually identical facts and not be sure how the courts will decide, that seems to be a damning indictment of the entire legal system.
Just sayin'.
damikesc — by what method do you propose to prove that the facts of two cases are identical? If Case A stands on a particular set of facts, which you say apply alike to Case B, there should be no need in the decision process for Case A. Just argue Case B, with the facts as you find them. If you cannot win Case B using only the facts which pertain to Case B, then the facts are not alike with those of Case A, which was a winner, and the analogy is flawed. If Case B does stand on its own, then perhaps the analogy is valid.
In short, an analogy ought to be treated as a preliminary framework to introduce an argument which can later be shown to stand on its own without the analogy. If that later demonstration cannot be made, you have to suspect the analogy is invalid.