The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Efforts to Throw Rep Cawthorn Off the Ballot Are Likely Unconstitutional
Prof. Derek Muller explains why states cannot invoke Section 3 of the 14th Amendment to exclude those who sought to overturn the 2020 election results from the ballot.
Some folks have argued that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment bars those who supported the January 6 assault on the Capitol or other efforts to overturn the 2020 election results from running for public office. Democratic party lawyer Marc Elias, for instance, has suggested that Section 3 should bar some Republican members of Congress from running for reelection, Some voters in North Carolina have even filed a complaint to keep Rep. Madison Cawthorn off the ballot.
North Carolina voters may have good reasons to not want Rep. Cawthorn as one of their representatives in Congress. (I sure wouldn't.) Yet the effort to force him off the ballot is ill-advised and, as Professor Derek Muller explains in the Wall Street Journal, likely unconstitutional.
From Prof. Muller's piece:
The U.S. Constitution doesn't allow states to invent qualifications for serving in Congress and exclude candidates from the ballot for failing to meet them. Yet that is precisely what the North Carolina State Board of Elections is trying to do to Rep. Madison Cawthorn. . . .
It would be unconstitutional if the [North Crolina state election] board attempted to take Mr. Cawthorn off the ballot. In 1995 the Supreme Court held in U.S. Term Limits Inc. v. Thornton that a term-limits amendment in Arkansas couldn't apply to congressional candidates. The qualifications enumerated in the Constitution, the court explained, are "fixed and exclusive." When a state tries to enforce an existing constitutional qualification, it may believe it is acting appropriately, but when it does so months ahead of Election Day, it often adds a qualification that the Constitution forbids. . . .
Even if Mr. Cawthorn were an "insurrectionist"—a matter of legal and factual debate—it wouldn't be a permanent bar to holding office. The Constitution provides that "Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability." We don't know whether Congress will decide before Election Day to bar from the House all who were involved in the events of Jan. 6 riot, but the Constitution is clear: The decision isn't North Carolina's to make.
States can't review a candidate's qualifications because the Constitution reserves that power to Congress itself. If voters elect a rascal who is constitutionally ineligible to serve, the people's representatives must decide whether or not to throw him out of the House.
For more from Prof. Muller on why lawsuits and other efforts to keep "insurrectionists" off the ballot are likely unconstitutional, see here.
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Using logic, reason, and rationality to persuade these leftist of their unconstitutional ideas is doomed to failure.
It is tough to argue that something is unconstitutional that is expressly written into the constitution. I agree with the analysis by Bored Lawyer.
There is more than just that single clause in the 14th amendment, there is also something about due process.
And there is this whole section at the end:
"Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
So while I'm not saying its beyond any possibility someone could be deemed ineligible to take their seat in congress I don't think the NC elections board acting on its own provides due process or equal protection under the law.
Congress has passed a criminal law with penalties and disqualification for insurrection:
"18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Clearly as a matter of law someone must be convicted of insurrection to be liable for any of those penalties.
The due process argument assumes that people have a liberty interest in holding office/being eligible for holding office. And I'm not sure that they do.
As for section 5, it empowers Congress but doesn't say that that's the only way to enforce the 14th amendment.
I have a liberty interest in being represented by the legitimately elected candidate. Part of that legitimacy is that qualified candidates are not excluded.
Congress might not be the only way to enforce the 14th Amendment, but a politicized bureaucrats in Hendersonville, NC, are not the other way.
Lawfare by the scumbag lawyer. Return it with warfare.
Of course, the true reason is that if this is allowed, half the democratic party will be ineligible based on the 2016 "resistance".
Supporting facts?
Only half?
"Some, I assume, are good people."
Riot/insurrection; an event taking place over a fraction of a day where the vast majority of people simply walk around. And a small fraction are let into a building causing no confirmed deaths. (Almost all deaths but possibly one instead caused by police or natural causes)
Peaceful protest: several month long event with tons of buildings, Including government destroyed and land occupied in some cases by an organized distinct political entity formally claiming to be separate from the us and tons of people killed, often straight up executed.
Your position is so weak that you have to resort to strawman fallacies.
That pretty well says everything anyone needs to know about your grasp on reality, your partisanship, and your patriotism.
What part of what I said isn't true?
He can't so he'll name call
What's the matter, bud? Do you need some attention? Just here to support your fellow 'patriots?'
Which parts are actual lies?
"tons of people killed, often straight up executed."
Which parts are hyperbolic descriptions based purely on your partisan blinders with the purpose of downplaying anything you approve of? Everything else.
Why not just call January 6th "Legitimate public discourse" and admit that you're cool with attempting to unlawfully overthrow an election?
Why not just admit that you don't have psychic powers and don't know everyone's motives implicitly? That guy the cops pulled over for speeding was obviously fleeing a triple homicide, according to your brilliant and entirely trustworthy analysis.
They weigh the same as a duck! Burn them!
What strawman?
Your rebuttal was so weak that you didn't actually rebut anything.
Remind me: When has anything you've said ever mattered?
So far, you’re really not doing very well.
Are you looking in the mirror as you post this?
Jason is a denier. Deniers do not argue in good faith. Other measures are required.
I gotta go with Armchair and ask "what strawman"? Are you trying to say that more people were killed on Jan 6? Or that the CHAZ didn't happen?
January 6th was clearly the worst ever event exactly like January 6th in every single detail. Nothing else exactly like January 6th in every single detail even comes close. How can you not realize that?
Don't even try to bring up any violent attacks on federal buildings unless they were on the Capitol on a January 6th in a year after a Presidential election. They're simply not relevant.
Jan 6 was an attempted coup, perpetrated by a wide range of people from the White House, to Congress, to those who broke into the Capital. They all were aiming to retain Trump as an unelected president, which makes it a coup. The attempt was poorly organized, chaotic, poorly armed, and key players were not on board, but none of that means it was not a coup.
In other words you don't have any evidence that it was a coup so you just call it poorly organized to hide the fact that it does not look like a coup because it wasn't one.
Trump openly admitted that his goal was to overturn the election. It does not get any clearer then that. The Jan 6 mob was also quite open about their goals.
No they were not advocating an "overturning" or any election. Gosh you lie enough and even the people who invented the lie starts believing it. Next thing you know they will seriously argue that a bunch of people died that day because the activists murder them and that there were gallows waiting for VP Pence. Oh wait......that is also part of the Big Lie the left has woven into the fabric of this non-event.
The mob was trying to intimidate the Vice-president to disregard the provisions of the Electoral Count Act because they were dissatisfied with the outcome of the election. The means were violent, and the intent murderous.
The mob also tried to intimidate people to disregard the 2016 election and throw out or even arrest trump multiple times for phony pee tapes and supposed Russian collusion . There have been tons upon tons of antiTrump protests. Many which have had arrests. Does that mean that also counts as an 'insurrection/coup?' The means were also often violent and the intent murderous.
Supporting facts? Where was any attempt to corruptly obstruct, influence or impede an official proceeding? Please be specific.
Google Russian Collusion for hundreds of millions of dollars in coordinated efforts to attempt to obstruct, influence, impede the lawful 2016 election.
Google anti trump protests arrests for attempts to violently oppose the lawful 2016 election.
I'd say theres a bit more here then a few people smoking weed in the capitol.
It's your contention. I assume that if you had supporting facts you would have set them forth. And I see that you are unclear on the meaning of official proceeding.
You asked for facts and I gave them to you. If you did what I said you will find specific cases of coordinated and often violent opposition to the lawful 2016 election, to the effect of attempting to counter the result by throwing out or perhaps even arresting the lawful President which for all intents is the same end effect you are decrying the Jan6th picnic for. I'm also not exactly sure what is not official about a Presidential election especially if you are complaining about another one. Do you deny that its there?
You offered no facts in support of your bald assertions -- don't lie and claim that you did. It's not my obligation to Google anything, and if I did, I could only speculate as to what you are referring to.
I linked downthread to three judicial opinions, each of which discusses at length what constitutes an official proceeding. Read them and learn.
Ask this guy named Mueller who investigated it and found no collusion.
Not sure who you're referring to. Is this some TikTok star from whom you get your news? The special counsel Robert Mueller who wrote the Mueller Report did not find any such thing.
See the recent filling from the Durham investigation.
Impede an official proceeding? Here you go.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/06/brett-kavanaugh-confirmation-protesters-disrupt-final-vote/1549760002/
This is weak and you know it.
Jan 06 involved plans for violence, and came dang near getting their wish.
Kavanaugh was just a protest.
Unless you want to join the 'they were just tourists' nutters, this analogy fails.
Move those goalposts!
I'll hang in on 'corruptly.'
Do you think the Kavanaugh protests were corruptly attempting to influence the outcome?
I think Jan 06 is an easy case to make on that front. Because of, you know, all of the violence.
y81, you are overlooking the culpable mental state requirement of 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2). I suspect you are doing so deliberately. Actions which are not undertaken corruptly do not violate the statute, as Sarcastr0 observed. The Kavanaugh protests were unruly, and more than 300 demonstrators were arrested and charged with other offenses, but that was not an attempt to corruptly obstruct, influence or impede an official proceeding.
The January 6 riot, OTOH, was an unlawful attempt to violently intimidate the vice-president to exercise purported authority which the law did not give him, based on the demonstrably false premise that Trump actually won the election, and intended to obtain for Trump a benefit to which he was not lawfully entitled -- a second term in office. Corrupt from topside to bottom.
If "corruptly" means "in return for money," then neither the Jan. 6 demonstrators nor the anti-Kavanaugh demonstrators violated the statute. If it means, by other than proper legal means, then both were corrupt. The anti-Kavanaugh demonstrators were not merely registering an opinion, they would have been happy if their efforts had prevented a vote. I view the two as morally equivalent, although deadly force was only employed against unarmed individuals in one of the two incidents.
If "corruptly" means "in return for money,"
It does not.
And your equating protesting in a hearing with breaking into the Capitol and hunting for Reps says a lot about your moral compass.
The anti-Kavanaugh crowd did not "protest" a hearing, they disrupted a hearing, with the improper objective of preventing a vote.
No, they did not expect to actually prevent anything from happening - not for long. Such disruptions are de rigueur in hearings. I got to see one in an energy budget hearing. Anti-oil protesters. Exciting stuff.
You are mischaracterizing what happened. Or, more likely, your source is doing so and you haven't really bothered to check up.
I have linked downthread to three decisions that discuss at length the meaning of the word corruptly in 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) in the context of January 6. Read them and inform yourself.
The Kavanaugh protests may have involved other statutes, but there was nothing corrupt about them.
This is a law blog. It's bad form to make shit up as you go along.
I think they were actually dissatisfied with the blatant and rampant cheating that went on in the election.
Supporting facts? Please be specific.
The illegal ballot drop boxes in WI.
The tens of thousands of Biden only ballots without chain of custody in GA.
The illegal mail-in voting rule changes in PA.
The illegal ballot harvesting caught on video in MN & TX.
The illegal ballot dumps in Milwaukee County WI.
Not to mention the innumerable statistical anomalies regarding manual ballot adjudications, late ballot dumps, and bellweather counties.
HTH
None of which, even if true, authorized the Vice-president to disregard 3 U.S.C. 15 and unilaterally reject certified slates of electors, which is what the mob was trying to intimidate him into doing.
What the mob were, apparently, attempting to do, was to accomplish a delay during which allegations of cheating would actually get a real hearing.
I agree that the VP wasn't actually authorized to do as they wanted. But as I said in another thread, there's wrong, and there's batshit insane, and thinking that the VP could utilize his ministerial role to force that hearing was just wrong. Stupider ideas actually prevail occasionally, more's the pity.
there's wrong, and there's batshit insane,
And those guys were batshit insane, as are many of their defenders here.
Slightly off topic, but John Eastman appears to be claiming attorney-client privilege as to thousands of pages of documents subpoenaed by the House January 6 committee which he has been ordered to review. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/14/john-eastman-jan-6-investigation-00008560 I hope the committee presses the point that attorney-client privilege does not apply when the attorney assists the client in commission of a crime.
If so, Eastman may claim his privilege against self-incrimination, as he reportedly did 146 times when interviewed by the committee. These papers, though, are held by Chapman University, which is not at risk of prosecution.
Most of those things are fictional, but assuming for the sake of argument that drop boxes are not allowed in Wisconsin or mail in voting is not allowed in Pennsylvania, neither of those would constitute "cheating."
David Nieporent,
I'm sure you trust having a bunch of ballots pass through multiple layers of activist Democrats, but I don't.
Sorry. We all saw the Ruby Freeman videos.
NotGuilty, what you are saying is that even if there was undeniable proof that the election results were falsified, that our government still has to respect the blatantly false election and neither the Administration nor Congress can do anything about it?
I don't think you have thought this completely through.
People can be wrong without being evil. To understand their actions on this day, we have to look at it through their eyes with their limited knowledge. The cry was "stop the steal" with the explicit reasoning being all the suspected cases of voter fraud and illegal changes in voting procedure (several of the latter have since been overturned as clearly illegal). Calling it a coup is willfully ignorant of what these rioters believed there were doing.
It was a violent attempt to intimidate Mike Pence to act unlawfully for the benefit of Donald Trump. Read 3 U.S.C. 15 and it becomes plain as day that Pence had no authority to conform to Trump's wishes. (Even such a dimbulb as Dan Quayle could see that,)
There was no blatantly false election. Multiple recounts and scores of lawsuits drove that home with sledgehammer force. Trump is evil and corrupts well nigh everyone around him, including his January 6 stooges. Their conduct was criminal and their intent murderous.
You mean the one that the Georgia elections and law enforcement apparatus, all controlled by Republicans, said showed entirely legitimate conduct and that people who said otherwise were lying?
Yes, that's you: lying.
Every legal challenge to election results would be an insurrection by your argument. Every recount, every protest and riot backing a recount, and ever refusal to concede.
Not true. There are lawful means of contesting election results, and there are unlawful means. Attempting to corruptly obstruct, influence or impede an official proceeding of Congress is criminal according to 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2).
So is killing people and attacking government buildings for BLM.
True, but how is that germane to this discussion? Those who engaged in that prohibited conduct should be prosecuted. You are grasping at straws to change the subject.
The conspiracy to allow one side to break laws while vigorously persecuting the other side is the actual story.
If person A stole a bag of potato chips and was thrown in jail. While person B killed a man in cold blood and was given the Nobel Prize for it wouldn't you find it curious if the media focused exclusively on further details of person A's potato chip theft and completely ignored person B and the punishment disparity? Or would you also only be exclusively interested in rehashing for the 100th time how horrible the chip theft was?
That is not analogous at all. You are dancing around the Maypole to talk about anything other than Trump supporters' misconduct, because you know that that misconduct is indefensible. Man up and admit it.
How about if person A stole a bag of potato chips and person B tried to overthrow the government?
What if A tried to overthrow the government and B tried to overthrow the government?
Actually there aren’t any ways to legally protest the provenance of the ballots, at least in a timely fashion, and that was, and continues to be, the problem. What can be legally done is to recount the ballots. But, as was shown, you can recount them all that you want, and will continue to count all the same illegal ballots each time.
That was the real innovation in the 2020 election - throwing out the Republican election judges, and then separating ballots from their provenance. It is the bipartisan election judges overseeing the process that is supposed to prevent what happened in the morning after the election - the introduction of ballots lacking proper provenance into the system. Ballots trucked in from out of state, ballots without proper signatures, without drivers’ licenses, from dead or moved people, etc.
Our election system of voting integrity is built on manual voting, and the imposition of (in many of the disputed cases, illegal) mail in voting, on top of this manual, in person, system is where the fraud was allowed to occur. Removing bipartisan oversight at the critical place where mail in ballots are severed from their provenance allowed introduction of bogus or illegal ballots into the system, with no legal or practical method to separate the good from the bad ballots, was the key to enabling the fraud. We know from the AZ audit and canvas that probably hundreds of thousands, and at a minimum, at least probably 50k, ballots were introduced into the system that shouldn’t have been counted - in one county in a state where Biden’s margin of victory was 10k and Kelly’s was 20k votes. And no way to separate out, after the fact, the ballots without provenance. You can recount the stacks of ballots as many times as you want - but you are still counting the bad ones along with the good. And, we found in the weeks after the election, that there is nothing the courts can do to address this, except recount the stacks of good and bad ballots. We can just do
This is precisely why many of the states where this happened are trying to tighten up their systems to verify the provenance of the mail in ballots counted, before counting them, and why the Dems in Congress are so desperate to override their efforts at the national level (using their Senate majority very likely garnered through this election fraud) with enactment of HR-1, etc.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I assume this is an incompetent reference to observers/poll watchers (who are not "election judges"), but of course this was fully litigated and didn't happen. (Remember when the Trump lawyer finally begrudgingly conceded after being questioned by the judge that there were a "non-zero" number of observers?)
Is there any discredited conspiracy theory you won't repeat? Remember when Trump claimed to Raffensperger during Trump's telephonic attempt to commit election fraud in Georgia that there were 5,000 dead people who voted in the state, and an uncomfortable Raffensperger had to explain that the actual number was 2?
Well, the minimum is at most probably 0, which we know from the AZ fraudit.
Hundreds of defendants are accused of attempting to corruptly obstruct, influence or impede the official proceeding of Congress on January 6. Multiple federal district courts have concluded that the indictments state an offense for violation of 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2). See, https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.227256/gov.uscourts.dcd.227256.63.0.pdf
This charge is so generic it applies to every Women's March protester on the multiple days they interrupted the Kavanaugh hearings, or the occasional protesters in the gallery that unfurl a banner or shout slogans.
Do you think the Women's March was a coup, insurrection, or rebellion? Do you think its supporters are all ineligible to be elected (even though some have re-elected multiple times)?
Did you read Judge Friedreich's linked opinion? Yes or no?
I don't think that those who objected to the confirmation of then-Judge Kavanaugh were acting corruptly. Hundreds of protesters were arrested and charged with unlawfully demonstrating in Senate office buildings -- a different charge. The demonstration was an attempt to influence Congress, but not a corrupt attempt, which is what section 1512(c)(2) prohibits. It was not a coup, insurrection or rebellion.
Justice Scalia, concurring in part and dissenting in part in United States v. Aguilar, 515 U.S. 593 (1995), opined:
515 U.S. at 616-17 (interpreting 15 U.S.C. 1503).
Excuse me. That should be 18 U.S.C. 1503.
How does that not apply to the Kavanaugh Insurrection?
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. There was no unlawful benefit to any person to be gained from the Kavanaugh protests. Other statutes may have been violated -- hundreds of arrests were made for unlawfully demonstrating -- but no corrupt advantage or benefit was the demonstrators' objective.
Not even hair-splitting, that's hand waving.
The protesters attempted to interfere with Congress in the execution of its official functions to prevent a political opponent from being confirmed to office.
Now, which group was I referring to?
See also, https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-caldwell-146
See also, https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21170582-211228-kelly-deny-motion-to-dismiss
"Coup" sounds a lot better than "these are people we don't like so we are going to throw them into political prisons on made up charges to punish them for daring to speak their mind."
Are you suggesting that people did not in fact trespass at the Capitol?
Many of those involved did much worse than trespass.
Many in the sense that they wouldn't all fit together in a phone booth, I suppose. Few as a fraction of those who entered the Capitol that day.
Are you ignoring the criminal conduct charged in hundreds of indictments?
Are you saying hundreds of people would fit in a phone booth? All I said was that most of the people who entered the Capitol that day didn't do anything worse than trespass. There were a lot of people entering the Capitol that day.
"hundreds of indictments"
The hundreds of indictments were mainly for trespass, mostly misdemeanors.
Less than a hundred for assault or serious crimes. [I think its "far less" but I don't have a complete count.]
Does trespassing typically result in a year in solitary confinement?
A small fraction of the January 6 defendants are detained pretrial, and I am unaware of any of those who are charged with mere trespassing. The pretrial detainees are those whom a judge or magistrate has found, after an adversarial hearing, to be a flight risk or a threat to public safety if released.
How many do you think are being detained pretrial? What charges do you believe are being brought to the ones who are being detained?
I also reject your inference that they are being treated fairly in corrupt DC courts.
I don't know the specific numbers, but it appears to be a few dozen out of more than seven hundred charged. https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/capitol-riot-are-hundreds-of-defendants-still-in-jail/65-dffb1d7e-089a-4406-ae4e-c54748e11953
Around six dozen defendants who have been charged in January 6 cases remain jailed awaiting trial, according to an Associated Press tally. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-764100273142
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/j6-rally-capitol-riot-defendants/2021/09/17/b433ecb6-1657-11ec-a5e5-ceecb895922f_story.html
WAPO says 78. That's dated +/- 1 day from your article.
Your fact checkers use the weasel qualifier of
"No, there are not “hundreds” of Capitol Riot defendants still being detained in the DC Department of Corrections. Less than 40 people involved on Jan. 6 are currently detained **at the District of Columbia Department of Corrections**." and then jumps to no others at all behind bars.
Democrats are filthy liars.
Still a small fraction. And around six dozen (72) and 78 is not a great difference.
Do you have evidence of corruption in the U. S. District Court for the District of Columbia? (The January 6 defendants are not before the D.C. courts.) Or are you getting information from Otto Yourazz?
Do you not know what Judge Sullivan tried to do to Gen. Flynn?
Come on dude.
Is that all you've got? Flynn was dicking around with having admitted facts establishing guilt in multiple plea submission hearings and then trying disingenuously to deny guilt before sentencing. Judge Sullivan treated that harshly, but where is the evidence of corruption there?
The DOJ literally admitted misconduct, and endorsed dropping the plea agreement, and Sullivan tried to have him prosecuted over it.
Judge Sullivan wasn't prosecuting anyone, Brett. Flynn had pleaded guilty and was awaiting sentencing when he hired batshit crazy new counsel and started jerking the court around. Flynn's admissions during the plea submission proceedings were under oath, and could have subjected him to a perjury prosecution, but that was not Judge Sullivan's call. The decision for the court was whether to impose sentence or permit the plea to be withdrawn.
"Judge Sullivan wasn't prosecuting anyone, Brett."
He did try, though.
Judge in Flynn case eyeing possible contempt charge for perjury
"The federal judge presiding over former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s criminal case suggested on Wednesday that he is considering the possibility of holding President Trump’s former aide in contempt for perjury.
U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan also tapped a retired federal judge to argue against the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) motion to drop the criminal prosecution of Flynn."
The DOJ coerced a guilty plea from Flynn, then when their own misconduct was exposed, tried to drop the plea, and Sullivan didn't want to permit it.
Once again, you are quite certain of facts without actually being right. The DOJ conspicuously did not admit misconduct.
Is having a door opened for them and waved in a trespass? There's video of it. The Democrats don't want this to go to trial. That's why they are imposing the conditions on those who have been arrested. They want them to plead out. If this goes to Court it's going to be a shitstorm and the Democrat's entire narrative goes away.
"trespass at the Capitol"
OMG, trespassing. So serious.
You clearly have no idea what a coup is let alone what it takes to pull one off.
The counting of the electoral votes is just theater, it is a done deal when then the numbers are submitted, what was being done in Congress was just the procedural part required of them. Interfering with it in no way threatened the outcome of the election.
The counting of the electoral votes is just theater, it is a done deal when then the numbers are submitted, what was being done in Congress was just the procedural part required of them. Interfering with it in no way threatened the outcome of the election.
Yes, but that's not what the insurrectionists thought. Their intent was plainly to overturn the election.
Ask Mitch.
When Clinton sued in court (in multiple states!) in 2016, her intent was to overturn the election.
I wouldn't call that a coup, though.
Except that Clinton didn't sue in 2016. Don't make shit up.
The russian hoax was an attempted coup. The Jan 6 protests were trivial compared to the russian hoax attempted coup
context matters
The term "coup" should be reserved for a violent effort to take control of the government. We haven't had one of those in the US yet.
So violence within the Capitol building while Congress is in session with the intent of forcing it to do something it otherwise wasn't going to do doesn't meet your definition of "a violent effort to take control of the government"?
How do you figure? Do you reckon only succesful coups should count as coups?
That would be the Kavanaugh protests in a nut shell. Now who invited them? Let's look into that.
Was that particularly violent?
More than 300 Kavanaugh protestors were arrested. But no, it was not by any stretch of the imagination a coup. Don't be silly.
"So violence within the Capitol building while Congress is in session with the intent of forcing it to do something it otherwise wasn't going to do doesn't meet your definition of "a violent effort to take control of the government"?"
Nope. Because it clearly was incapable of taking control of "the government". Might as well describe placing a penny on the tracks as "an attempted train derailment".
Even if the people who'd busted in had captured a quorum of Congress and forced them to vote that Trump was President, at gun point, it wouldn't have gotten anybody control of the government. The bureaucracy, for instance, barely pretended to follow Trump's orders on a good day. The State Department was literally feeding him false numbers on numbers of troops in the Middle East.
Coups generally require that you already have control of the military, or some force of comparable magnitude, because just capturing legislators doesn't give you squat, it's just really mopping up an alternate power center.
There was a whole plan to do a bunch of anticonstitutional antidemocratic nonsense if Pence caved.
Attempt is still a crime. A misaimed bullet doesn't mean you ignore the shooter.
There was a whole plan to investigate the legitimacy of the votes in multiple states, which people who didn't want it to happen call anti-constitutional antidemocratic nonsense.
And the plan was proceeding as intended until the rioters disrupted it, forcing it to be abandoned. Which is why I say that the riot actually makes more sense as a Reichstag fire than a coup. It had exactly the effect anybody with any sense would have expected: It made Trump's election challenge radioactive.
The plan was to corruptly importune Mike Pence to disregard applicable law and unilaterally reject slates of electors certified according to law by state authorities. Pence foiled the plot when he refused on January 4 to break the law at Trump and Eastman's urging. Your contention that "the plan was proceeding as intended until the rioters disrupted it" is a bald faced lie.
Whose plan was this, exactly, and where can I find an official and certified copy of it that all parties admit to?
Since you and others (you, too, Brett) are claiming to know what hundreds of people intended in precise detail.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/10/trump-powerpoint-mark-meadows-capitol-attack
Trump, John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, the stooges who falsely claimed to have been selected as electors in several states, for starters. So far as I can tell, only Eastman and the bogus electors were fool enough to put their nefarious handiwork in writing.
A conspiracy, of course, does not require a written agreement, and it is ordinarily proved circumstantially.
Eastman reportedly invoked his privilege against self-incrimination 146 times when he was interviewed by the House January 6 committee. He knows what he was doing is crooked.
Perhaps the DOJ should immunize Eastman and compel his testimony. No attorney-client privilege attaches to the attorney assisting the client to commit a crime or fraud.
"The plan was to corruptly importune Mike Pence to disregard applicable law"
Look, you seem to think that all you need to make an action "corruptly" is not agreeing with somebody's legal theories, and thinking they have bad motives. But I don't think that's what "corruptly" means. Did he bribe Pence? Did he threaten Pence's family?
Or did he just have a stupid legal theory he tried to persuade Pence to adopt?
For further evidence that this was a Rechstag fire moment:
Consider that President Trump requested 20,000 National Guardsmen to oversee the event, only to be turned down by Nanci Peloci and the Mayor of Washington, DC, and furthermore to have less police on Capitol Hill than would be normal for a typical Protest (as everyone was expecting) .... one has to wonder about their motives.
Particularly since, so far at least, they have resisted requests to release the emails that would shed light on their reasoning. What do they have to hide?
That Chinese and tech billionaire propaganda.
You are correct. It is funny, I remember when Trump said that he had been spied on and everyone ridiculed him and insulted anyone who believed it as a "conspiracy theorist". Now it has been PROVEN that Hillary set up a spy ring on Trump even after he was president. Used tax payer dollars to do so and used the FBI and other law enforcement as henchmen. I do hope we finally see some accountability on that. But I won't hold my breath as long as the same corrupt people that did this are still holding positions of power.
My point is, just about every time the indoctrinated masses belittle the allegations that the "truthers" make. Indeed, more and more our "theories" turn out to be true. Seems the only difference between theory and fact anymore is about 6 months to a few years. But they are being exposed more every day. The drips of truth are turning into a firehose level of release.
Here is a fun fact for the blind, deaf, and dumb, *Nothing here is in debate. All of this is agreed upon facts. Not hearsay, these are factual numbers, real data that you can look up if in doubt. You can go to the websites for the different states that will give you the voting tallies and history. These numbers are not in dispute. Consider now—away from the thousands and thousands, of affidavits from people who witnessed fraud and other mountains of direct evidence of voter fraud Who signed them knowing that lying could mean jail time let us look at some of the “math” involved in the 2020 election:
* Shortly after midnight (eastern), President Trump was leading in all six of the swing states still in issue: Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona, and Nevada, and had racked up, apart from those six states, 232 electoral votes to Biden’s 227.
* The early-morning-Nov. 4 “blue-shift” took place ONLY in the six swing states (nowhere else), through a series of “spikes,” almost entirely consisting of mailed ballots (made possible due to radical changes in voting laws following the CCP virus pandemic), in which Biden received the vast majority of the votes. According to an analysis published through substack, these spikes include:
* “An update in Michigan listed as 6:31 a.m. Eastern Time on Nov. 4, 2020, which shows 141,258 votes for Joe Biden and 5,968 votes for Donald Trump” Really? This is believable to you? A man who can get a hundred thousand people to a rally gets less than 6,000 votes out of almost 150,000? Are you really that brainwashed?
* “An update in Wisconsin listed as 3:42 a.m. Central Time on Nov. 4, 2020, which shows “143,379 votes for Joe Biden and 25,163 votes for Donald Trump”
* “A vote update in Georgia listed During the early morning hours of Nov. 4, not one or two, but all six states flipped for Biden in the middle of dark early morning hours. Eastern Time on Nov. 4, 2020, which shows 136,155 votes for Joe Biden and 29,115 votes for Donald Trump”
* “An update in Michigan listed as of 3:50 a.m. Eastern Time on Nov. 4, 2020, which shows 54,497 votes for Joe Biden and 4,718 votes for Donald Trump”
* Those four spikes yielded 426,241 Biden votes but only 64,964 Trump votes.
* Somehow Biden did very poorly in all parts of the country except, ONLY AND EXACTLY, where it mattered. Neighboring states, which should be of similar demographic and voter patterns, did not resemble the 'battleground states" in anyway, shape, or form
* In 2008, Obama garnered 69,498,516 votes, the most ever until Biden slashed his record with over 80 million votes in 2020, yet, Trump won the highest share of non-white voters of any Republican since 1960: Roughly one-quarter of non-white voters cast their ballots for Trump, according to an Edison exit poll.
* Trump improved his 2016 performance (just shy of 63 million votes) by 20 percent in 2020 (over 74 million votes). No incumbent president in U.S. history has ever improved his original performance that much and lost. For example, Barack Obama garnered 3.5 million fewer votes in 2012, yet, won a second term.
In sum: six swing states were won by Trump on Election Day, and all six shifted to Biden by virtue of early morning Nov. 4 spikes in mailed-in ballots overwhelmingly favoring Biden; but somehow Biden did not win elsewhere in the country; Trump won (18 of 19) of the historically accurate bellwether counties; Biden, campaigning from his basement, after obvious signs of cognitive decline and the hugely damaging Hunter Biden scandal breaking, running with a vice-presidential candidate who had to drop out of the race at 5 percent of the vote, somehow topped Obama, the first black U.S. president, a political superstar, by over 10 million votes? Even though Trump won more of the non-white vote than any GOP candidate in the last 60 years. Many respected analyst and mathematicians inspected the data and claim with all certainty that there is no way that Biden could have won the election with the vote disparities before the counting shut down in the early morning hours. The numbers that were reported that support a Biden win, are not cohesive with the laws of nature. The statistical possibility of Donald Trump losing such a large lead on Election Night to late-arriving mail-in ballots is one in a quadrillion. the probability of former Vice President Biden winning the popular vote in the four Defendant States—Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin— independently given President Trump’s early lead in those States as of 3 a.m. on November 4, 2020, is less than one in a quadrillion.
There hasn't been a court that has had the balls to look at the evidence. They dismiss the case due to standing every time.
Those of you who don't have TDS, that still believe the election was not stolen, you are gullible and blind and totally unaware of just how corrupt the majority of players on both sides of the aisle are. Most of those in the congress are rotten. The election was stolen with the collusion of bad actors, big tech censoring and lining pockets, foreign interests, along with the corporate bought and paid for media covering their every move and burying real information. But universal truth: The truth cannot stay buried forever, it will come out. They are doing their best to silence those who speak the truth, to throw them out of congress, to call them terrorists, but they cannot do it forever. I, for one cannot wait to see the faces of all the dupes who swallow the garbage the corporate enemedia spoon feeds them when they see just how the MSM is. They would make Stalin blush with the level of propaganda they disseminate. One day your deductive reasoning skills need to kick in and you see nothing they say makes sense.
Would you believe habitual cheating spouse if they had lipstick on their collar but denied wrong doing? But you believe these people that lie to you on a daily basis, ? WOW!
I know this is long. I only have one question left. I'm not saying Biden is trying to sink this ship called America, but if he were, what would he be doing differently?
Its long and complicated and wrong (e.g. Trump was not leading in AZ on election night). Occam's Razor suggests a simpler explanation: Biden simply got more votes and the mail-in ballots took longer to count.
The simpler explanation isn't always right, though.
Besides which, I would offer an Occam's Razor of my own: after Big Tech spent billions to "fortify the election" (which wasn't just admitted in Time Magazine -- they bragged about it), they then went overdrive to censor everyone even suggesting there might be something wrong about the election.
What did they have to hide? Occam's Razor would suggest they were hiding a stolen election.
I cannot access the WSJ article, so I have to rely on the excerpt here.
I find neither argument persuasive. True, the states cannot make up new qualificiations (or new disqualifications) for federal offices. But the 14th Amendment expressly states that Insurrection is a disqualificaiton. U.S. Term Limits Inc. v. Thornton is inappositve, as there Arkansas was trying to add a completely new disqualificiation (not having served more than the term limits).
Second, that Congress can remove the disqualification does not mean that, prima facie one is not disqualified. Quite the contrary, the default is a disqualificiation, which COngress can remove.
The real questions are (1) what is "insurrection" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment and (2) who decides that an individual has engaged in it. Not sure of either answer, but I very much doubt that the North Carolina Bd. of Elections qualifies under (2). (Maybe a state court does?)
Agreed. Clearly the disqualification is constitutional, it is the implementations that is up for debate, and there are very few clues to go by.
The answer to 2 is a simple majority of whatever chamber of Congress someone has been elected to, and the answer to 1 is, by historical precedent, serving as an officer of the Confederacy, or an officer of a state within the Confederacy (although I would say basically whatever can garner the aforementioned majority vote would qualify in modern times)
Congress refused to seat Victor Berger in 1919 and again in 1920. He was born in 1860 in Europe and had no connection to the Confederacy, having moved to the United States in 1878. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger
NG,
If he is re-elected, the House could certainly refuse to seat him. It would have a better case if the House expelled him now.
That does not mean that he can be forbidden from running for office
North Carolina has procedures in place for testing his qualifications to serve if elected. Absent modification by Congress, that is a state legislative prerogative under Article I, Section 4, Clause 1 unless the state seeks to impose qualifications over and above those specified in the Constitution itself.
You say that, but it is not convincing, as the House has determined that he his qualified by the act of seating him and allowing him to continue to serve.
In this case it seems that the NC is trying to usurp the authority solely vested in the House.
Of course there is no point in arguing as nothing that you or I say will make a difference. It is for others to decide.
Where do you get that "solely" from?
Both the Costitution and the historical practice of both Hoses of Congress.
I think you're confused between kicking people out/refusing to sit them and regulating election to these Hoses in the first place.
I am not confused. Each House is the judge of whether an elected person is qualified to serve. If they allow the person to served, they have judged the person qualified.
No, you are confused. The House has to affirmatively make a decision whether to accept a newly elected member, so by doing so one might say that they have implicitly decided that he meets the qualifications.
But they do not have to expel a sitting person; their failure to do so is not a determination that the person hasn't done something wrong.
Ah, but Congress refused to seat Victor Berger after being convicted. When the Supreme Court rejected the conviction, he was again seated.
That's a bit of a misreading of the argument. Here's the White paper.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2418517
The basic argument is this. The states cannot make up or enforce ANY qualifications for Congressmen. Only Congress can enforce any qualifications. Let's use a clear example here.
Joe is 24 years of age, and runs for Congress. Can the state disqualify him and kick him off the ballot?
Answer: No. The state does not have the power to decide or enforce qualifications like this. Only Congress does. If Joe is elected, then it comes before Congress to make up their mind about Joe.
Why is this important, and what's the case law?
The clause that typically was brought up was the residency clause. (You need to be a resident of the state to be elected). Most recently, it was in regards to Senator Landrieu from Louisiana. Basically it was argued that Landrieu didn't really live in LA, so she should be disqualified as a Senator. (She put down her parents residence as her primary LA address...) The court dismissed the case. Basically it's up to Congress to decide...not the courts
https://www.nola.com/news/politics/article_a35b65a7-9041-54f1-a744-8e945a2eb064.html
It appears that the dismissal in Landrieu's case (as is often happens, apparently, on the question of disqualification) has less to do with who has the power to do with what but the ripeness of the challenge.
The previous case is Jim McCrery.
In general, these types of lawsuits are dismissed.
The big problem is that the 14A doesn't describe how it is to be applied -- question (2) by Bored Lawyer. Each House of Congress already had the authority to judge the qualifications of its members. Does that mean that a bare majority of the relevant house can invoke that clause, and then two thirds of both houses are required to remove the disability? Or is further process due before applying the limit?
This doesn't sound right . . . .
Don't know about your state but in mine, before we talk about who or how someone can get "kicked off" the ballot we should talk about the process involved in getting on the ballot. It's complicated - major party candidates, minor party candidates, independent candidates have different hurdles but they all start with an Affidavit of Identity - for our purposes here, the candidate has to assert their name, age, and place of residence.
If "Joe" submits an affidavit showing that he's 24 years old, he's not getting on the ballot.
That is exactly what Muller is saying states can't do.
What they can do, apparently, is bar candidates for failing to file affidavits, or submitting false affidavits, or otherwise failing to satisfy any number of conditions for gaining access to the ballot... just nothing to do with "qualifications," per se. That seems to be Muller's argument, anyway.
That was my thought, actually: This reasoning interacts very badly with ballot access laws, let alone the laws of states that don't allow write in votes.
Mind, I do think such laws are a gross violation of the right to vote, as it was understood at the time the Constitution was adopted. Ballots printed by the state didn't show up until around the Civil war, or so I understand; States had always regulated who could vote, but never who they could vote FOR.
I think the first step of this analysis is as follows. Ballot access laws need to be differentiated from "disqualifying" a candidate from being elected. While related, they aren't the same.
The state can control the ballot access. They can exert control over who is on the ballot. They can't control who is actually elected though. Only Congress can disqualify people.
Do you have any authority that a state may not deny ballot access to a Congressional candidate who does not meet constitutional qualifications? It may be a question of first impression.
"The state can control the ballot access. They can exert control over who is on the ballot. They can't control who is actually elected though."
The difference is largely academic if the state refuses to count write-in votes. You can't get elected if the state makes it difficult to impossible to vote for you, and refuses to count votes for you if somebody manages to cast them.
Problem with that argument is that it's exactly what SCOTUS rejected in U.S. Term Limits. The law in question did not bar congressional candidates from being reelected to a fourth term; it just barred them from appearing on the ballot. They could still win as write-ins. SCOTUS said that this was an attempt at a constitutional end-run and struck it down.
Well, I had that wrong. I probably knew that at some point.
So then how does that interact with signature requirements?
Like I said, the functional distinction is whether you're screwing with 3rd parties, or major parties. The major parties use these weapons against 3rd parties and independents all the time, with the approval of the judges they hired, but using these weapons against each other would be a major escalation. The courts are unlikely to treat it as the same, even though by legal logic it would be.
I'm asking an is question - 'what is the law?'
You are providing an ought answer. This is why I asked DMN.
A lot of the time the ought answer is interesting to me. But that's after the is question is answered.
Essentially, in U.S. Term Limits SCOTUS handwaved that away as a procedural rather than substantive requirement. (The majority was Souter-Stevens-Kennedy-Ginsburg-Breyer; not a lot of formalists in that lot.)
Yes, and I'd say they handwaved it away because the signature requirements are handy for keeping third party and independent candidates off the ballot, and they're not concerned much about THEIR rights. Whereas term limits were a looming threat to the parties that had put them on the bench.
Oy.
Sarcastro, I spent half my life as an activist within the LP, observing this stuff up close. The system is rigged against third parties, and most election laws that purport to be universal are only enforced against third parties. Usually at an administrative level, but the courts are in on it, too.
As I mentioned, that was the "first" step of the analysis. Dividing out disqualifying a candidate from just ballot access. The state cannot disqualify a candidate, it is not in their power.
After that, when considering ballot access, the state absolutely has some control over it. Yet its control is not absolute, and subject to certain limitations. The question is, where do those limitations lie? One can require a candidate pay a fee to be on the ballot, or collect signatures. Yet one cannot ban a candidate completely from the ballot, as via Thompson and the term limits bill. The question remains...what about those reasons that Congress can disqualify a candidate? Can the state use those reasons to ban a candidate from the ballot?
I'd argue no. That decision, ultimately, is up to Congress...not the states. And in keeping with the Thompson decision, absolutely banning a candidate from a ballot is unacceptable. Even if Congress could disqualify a candidate under those conditions, it is for Congress to decide...not the State.
Each House can decide that a candidate is not qualified.
If one does so, but only on 14th amendment grounds, then by two-thirds vote of both Houses they may accept the candidate anyway.
So yes, two-thirds is only mandated to override the rule, not to enforce it.
If a majority of one house voted to disqualify the candidate, why would a supermajority vote to remove that impediment?
Unfortunately, Section 3 was written to deal with an absurdly clear cut case, and the authors didn't think to clarify how it would be used going forward in cases less indisputable. Perhaps they didn't think it would ever be used outside of situations as open and shut as civil war.
Supporting the obstruction of peaceful transfer of power through a violent terroristic attack on the United States Congress is as open-and-shut as firing on Fort Sumter et seq.
But should it include a peaceful protest that gets out of hand, in no small part because the Speaker of the House refused to ensure there was enough of a police presence to keep the crowd under control, and because of Federal agents in the crowd encouraging a raiding of the Capitol?
And if it were the Speaker of the House who was behind all this "obstruction of peaceful transfer of power", shouldn't she be the one barred from being a member of the House?
If the evidence was clear and the members believed it was their duty to apply the law and rule the candidate unqualified, but their preference to exercise discretion and disregard the issue.
Maybe you're right and the house would take the shortcut instead, but on principle they shouldn't.
"The big problem is that the 14A doesn't describe how it is to be applied..."
Well your wrong about that the 14th amendment says in section 5 Congress can pass legislation to enact the provisions of the 14th amendment, and they have, specifically for insurrection and disqualification.
As I noted above, someone needs to be convicted of insurrection to be disqualified:
"18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
There is no ambiguity, congress has clearly acted to implement the disqualification clause of the 14th amendment, and there is no room for the NC elections board to decide Congress' action wasn't sufficient.
And also Article 1 says it takes 2/3 of a house of Congress to expel a member, a majority won't cut it. But a bare majority could change the law and implement a different process for determining what constitutes disqualification for insurrection.
That Congress has passed a law criminalizing rebellion and insurrection does not in any way support your claim that this law has anything to do with the 14th amendment provision in question, or that someone "needs to be convicted" to be disqualified. You're just making up lots of stuff here.
Well that's ridiculous that the law is not designed to directly implement the 14th amendment.
How many run of the mill criminal laws have a provision that state "and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States"?
You won't be able to find any because they would be struck down as unconstitutional. This one however survives because it conforms to sections 3 and 5 of the 14th amendment, which it directly implements.
David, you and I disagree a lot, but you usually don't make stupid mistakes like this one, but in this case you are clearly wrong.
The original version of that statute containing that provision was passed in 1862 — six years before the 14th amendment was ratified. It could not have therefore been intended to implement the 14th amendment.
if Congress thought they had the undisputed inherent authority to disqualify someone from holding any federal office why did they put it in the 14th amendment? Unless of course Blackman is right and "office under the United States" doesn't include "Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President", as was additionally listed in the 14th amendment?
But in any case Congress is on record as requiring a conviction for the charge of insurrection for disqualification in all versions of the statute, whether 1862, 1909, or 1940.
I think that is authoritive.
Um, nothing in the statute you're citing "requires a conviction" for the disqualification to kick in. You are inferring words that aren't there.
It says "Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto…" Not "Whoever is convicted of…"
Now, of course you might argue in response that it's implicit, because after all it says "Whoever [does those things] shall be fined/imprisoned," and we wouldn't think that someone could be fined/imprisoned without conviction. But we wouldn't think that because the 5th amendment squarely forbids depriving someone of life, liberty, or property without due process. But holding office is not depriving someone of those things.
Now you are trying to split hairs that don't exist
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;<b and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
No court could possibly interpret that to say that the disqualification was not part of the penalty, along with fine and imprisonment, which constitutionally would require a jury trial.
I am seriously convinced that Nancy Pelosi was the mastermind who created the January 6th Riots, and she did so deliberately to disrupt a peaceful transfer of power, because she didn't want the part where the House and Senate debate over the legitimacy of the election in question -- and she figured that it would discredit a sitting President, too.
Do you really want "nutcases" like me to decide what is and isn't insurrection, without a conviction in a Court of Law? Because if this is the road you want to travel, keep in mind that it's a two-way street.
Unfortunately, the argument in the article is barely more supported than the version of it you present here.
Here's the issue though. Let's use the residency requirements, since if they were actually reasonably applied, a large number of Congressmen and Senators would be ineligible.
Let's say that a number of GOP Congressmen win election, in say, CA. The Governor of CA and CA state legislature look into these Congressmen and figure out that they don't qualify for the residency requirements, having spent less than 30 days in the state in the last 2 years. They then declare these representatives "ineligible" to win, and nominate replacements for their position. This gains their party another 5-10 seats in Congress.
Is there anything wrong with this?
Oh, you mean like what Republicans want to be able to do, if they determine that an election is "fraudulent," with or without evidence?
I don't think anyone is alleging that state legislatures or governors should be able to come to their own determination of whether candidates are "qualified." I think the position is, rather, that the Constitution provides a justiciable standard that can be invoked in a complaint by a candidate challenging an electoral board's decision to put himself or another candidate on the ballot (or not). In this, it'd be no different than any other lawsuit alleging that a candidate did (or did not) meet certain technical requirements for ballot access, except that a state's "qualifying" conditions would be strictly limited by the Constitution.
Anyway, in your hypothetical - there are two issues. First, you're implicitly assuming that it is better that the non-resident winners of the election be seated - 5-10 out-of-state representatives! - in contravention of the Constitution's strict requirements on qualification. Second, there is no assurance that Congress would come to its own determination on the matter, or the "right" one. That is, Congress could choose to take the constitutional requirement seriously and disqualify these representatives - which puts us right back in the position of the CA governor having to make up the difference. Or, it could choose to disregard it entirely, a decision without any recourse. In either case, we could easily imagine opportunities for congressional mischief, including cases where representatives cast the deciding vote in favor of disregarding their own disqualifying conditions.
"Oh, you mean like what Republicans want to be able to do, if they determine that an election is "fraudulent," with or without evidence?"
You really should stop relying on hostile accounts of what legislation would do, and try reading the legislation itself. I think I've heard of one state legislator who proposed such a thing, and it got shot down by his own caucus.
Mostly they're just talking about ways to replace incompetent/rogue local elections administrators.
Due Process guaranties require an opportunity for the challenged candidate to be heard at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner.
The North Carolina statutory scheme includes ample procedural safeguards. The complaint must be by affidavit and include the factual basis therefor. The taking of depositions and issuance of subpoenas for witnesses or documents by both parties is authorized. The hearing panel may itself issue subpoenas. The hearing is conducted by the North Carolina Rules of Evidence. Proof may be taken by affidavits or by witness testimony under oath. The burden of proof is on the candidate to show his eligibility by a preponderance of evidence. The losing party may appeal immediately to the full State Board of Elections. An appeal as of right lies to the North Carolina Court of Appeals, and discretionary review by the Supreme Court of North Carolina may be available. If an issue of federal law is properly preserved, review by writ of certiorari by the United States Supreme Court may be sought.
"The North Carolina statutory scheme includes ample procedural safeguards. ... The burden of proof is on the candidate to show his eligibility by a preponderance of evidence."
I suppose you don't even notice that you've contradicted yourself there.
The NC statute was intended to deal with fairly straightforward questions such as age and residency, where you simply had to produce a birth certificate, or demonstrate where you've been living. (And, as somebody else has remarked, if residency requirements were actually enforced, many members of Congress would be disqualified, because once elected they barely ever so much a visit the states they were elected from.)
And now it's being applied to a fairly ambiguous crime, where you must prove that you didn't even secretly involve yourself. How? By accounting for your whereabouts and activities over a course of months, in complete detail?
The Rep. is being required to prove his innocence of a crime, that's not "ample procedural safeguards."
Uh, the administrative proceeding is a civil, administrative matter. No one is trying to lock Rep. Cawthon up or get into his pocket. Proof by a preponderance of evidence is the norm in civil proceedings.
The leading case on what process is due in administrative proceedings is Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319 (1976).
Which is part of the problem - the proof of a heinous crime, by a preponderance of the evidence, by a (possibly highly biased) administrative agency, instead of beyond a reasonable doubt, in a criminal trial, being used to prevent candidates from running for election. No one would probably complain if this Representative had been convicted of Insurrection, but no one is going to be so convicted, because whatever happened never legally rose to that level. Trespass, sure. Even conspiracy to commit Trespass. Etc. Everyone knows that the DOJ couldn’t prove the crime of Insurrection by this Congressman, in a criminal trial, if their lives depended on it.
That seems like something you should take up with the drafters of the 14th amendment.
For example, in 2020 the ECtHR held that a legislature cannot be an impartial arbiter of the validity of the election of one of its members, and that such issues should go to a court instead. Which seems like the right decision to me, but plainly not what the US constitution says. https://strasbourgobservers.com/2020/08/06/mugemangango-v-belgium-finally-a-grand-chamber-judgment-on-post-election-disputes/
Whether DOJ could convict of insurrection is not the relevant question. The North Carolina statutes require merely an affidavit of reasonable suspicion to trigger the inquiry. That low bar seems to be met here. https://freespeechforpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/nc-14.3-complaint-cawthorn-final-2022-01-10.pdf
If the facts favor Rep. Cawthon, he should have no difficulty prevailing in an evidentiary hearing. Instead of bellying up to the bar, though, he is seeking to avoid the inquiry entirely.
Because he's facing a presumption of guilt under the NC statute, and it is absurdly difficult to prove you didn't commit a crime.
The North Carolina statutes create no presumption of guilt. They create no presumption at all. The statutes provide for the taking of proof by affidavit or by witness testimony under oath at an adversarial hearing. Prehearing discovery mechanisms will frame the issues, and the challenged candidate, if he does his due diligence, will know what proof the challengers will rely upon. The candidate's testimony, if believed, is sufficient to carry his "more likely than not" burden, and he has subpoena power to compel the testimony of corroborating witnesses. Not onerous at all.
You really have not read the NC statute, have you?
"The challenge must be made in a verified affidavit by a challenger, based on reasonable suspicion or belief of the facts stated."
The challenger doesn't have to provide any proof, they just need to accuse. Once they've done that, it's all on the candidate to prove the accusation false.
That's easy to do if you're accused of not living in a district, or not being old enough for the office.
The word presumption does not mean what you appear to think it means. And guilt or innocence is not the question. This is not a criminal proceeding. You are displaying woeful ignorance of administrative law.
The affidavit of reasonable suspicion is simply the means of giving notice to the candidate what facts the challengers are attempting to rely upon. It establishes no facts, is not evidence, and creates no presumption. It provides a starting point for the parties to conduct discovery with an eye toward developing an evidentiary record before the hearing panel.
The inquiry is whether Cawthorn more likely than not participated in an insurrection or rebellion after taking an oath to support the Constitution. That is a factual determination, based on evidence proffered by the parties, that a hearing panel is competent to make.
FWIW, I think Cawthorn will win on the merits after a hearing. His attempted refusal to answer for his conduct in a civil proceeding, however, speaks ill of him.
Once again, it would have to be reasonable suspicion that he had been convicted of insurrection.
One is not a felon without a felony conviction, even if one commits felonies. And someone is not an insurrectionist without being convicted of insurrection, at most they are an alleged felon or alleged insurrectionist, which carries no legal disability.
That's obviously wrong; if it were, the phrase "convicted felon" would not exist.
Yeah, we've gone over that before, in the context of Hillary. Multiple legal dictionaries make it clear that a "felon" is somebody who has committed a felony, not just somebody who has been convicted of a felony.
Just because the government can't treat you as guilty without a conviction, doesn't mean you can't BE guilty without a conviction.
That was tried against Rick Santorum.
Santorum, the sanctimonious, selfish prick who stuck residents of a relatively poor school district for the expense of educating his children by lying about where the Santorum family lived?
Santorum seems to have slipped from public sight lately. I gather he is working full-time on a grifting operation that profits from the gullibility and superstition among right-wing hayseeds.
You mean, besides the fact that this isn't what residency means, and that if there are vacancies in the House they're filled by special election, not by appointment?
"Residency" is an interesting topic. Under any reasonable concept of residency most sitting senators no longer have residency in their home states.
Imagine taking a job halfway across the country. You buy a house there. Move your family there. Have your kids go to school there. Spend more than 75% of your time there. Even sell your old house and "move in" with your parents in your old state. Then try telling the state income tax bureau you really "live" in your old state for tax reasons. They wouldn't buy it.
Realistically speaking, most sitting senators would fail "residency" requirements as mandated by the US Constitution. It's a legal fiction for them that they maintain it. If Congress really wanted to, they could disqualify many sitting senators on these grounds. The governors of the states would then get to pick new ones in most states.
If Congress really wanted to, they could just start kicking members out on any old grounds they wanted. And I'm very much afraid we'll be at that point within a few more years.
Whether an individual took part in an insurrection is not determined by a legislature but instead, by a court of law. Until such has taken place, neither the states nor Congress can bar anyone from running for office based on Section 3 of Amendment 14.
Do you have any authority that a judicial determination is required? The NCSBE panel determination is appealable initially to the State Board of Elections, then appealable as of right to the North Carolina Court of Appeals. Discretionary review by the Supreme Court of North Carolina and the United States Supreme Court is possible.
You know, that is a good question. I tend to think state election commissions have no authority to make such a determination. One opinion from the American Constitution Society’s Gerard Magliocca, who is somewhat unclear in this paragraph when he says the following:
“Let me conclude by clearing up two misconceptions about Section Three. First, a concurrent resolution of Congress declaring that Trump is ineligible does not make him ineligible. A disqualification from office imposed after an impeachment conviction is final. A concurrent resolution on Section Three would instead be non-binding and subject to judicial review. Only a court judgment can make an individual ineligible under Section Three. Second, the application of Section Three does not require a criminal conviction for insurrection. No such requirement was imposed when the provision was enforced during Reconstruction. Congress could, of course, choose “beyond a reasonable doubt” as the standard of proof in a Section Three action, but a standard like “clear and convincing evidence” would adequately protect the liberty interests of anyone sued as ineligible.”
https://www.acslaw.org/expertforum/enforcing-the-14th-amendments-bar-on-insurrectionist-officers-and-candidates/
He says two things:
1. “Only a court judgement can make an individual ineligible under section 3”, and
2. “No such requirement was imposed…”
The "no such requirement was imposed" is specifically to a criminal conviction for insurrection. Presumably he believes one could, although he did not, enumerate the statutes and fact patterns for which a conviction suffices to disqualify a candidate.
Mr. Magliocca cites no authority for the proposition that only a court judgement can make an individual ineligible under section 3. And he was writing in the context of disqualification of a presidential candidate. Article I, Section 4 authorizes state legislatures to prescribe the time, place and manner of election of Senators and Representatives.
Article I, Section 4 does not authorize state legislatures to determine who can be elected. You have been told this already.
Article I, Section 4 authorizes state legislatures to prescribe the time, place and manner of election of Senators and Representatives. The North Carolina legislature has prescribed a mechanism for resolving challenges as to whether a candidate meets applicable qualifications. Here the relevant requirements -- not having engaged in insurrection or rebellion after having sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution -- are specified in the Constitution itself. That seems to me to be embraced within the manner of conducting elections.
I will be charitable and hypothesize that it seems that way to you because you don't understand what those words mean and haven't bothered to read what people have been telling you in this thread.
I prefer original source materials to blog comments. The commenters on this thread (mostly) avoid citing legal authorities.
"Article I, Section 4 authorizes state legislatures to prescribe the time, place and manner of election of Senators and Representatives. The North Carolina legislature has prescribed a mechanism for resolving challenges as to whether a candidate meets applicable qualifications."
Yeah, but Article I, Section 5 prescribes a different mechanism for resolving challenges as to whether a candidate meets applicable qualifications. It says Congress gets to decide.
Article I, Section 5 applies to the exclusion/expulsion of members elected to Congress, not to candidates therefor. Ballot access is part of the manner of electing Senators or Representatives, an area in which a state legislature is authorized to act (provided that the state does not impose qualification requirements over and above those specified in the Constitution itself). Section 5 does not render Section 4 nugatory, although the Congress under Section 4 can by law make or alter regulations made by the state legislatures.
lol you think you see a little space between the power to judge qualifications for ballot access and the ability to judge qualifications for office? It ain't there.
One is a state function authorized by Article I, Section 4 (absent Congressional modification); the other is a power reserved unto each house of Congress. No constitutional provision should be interpreted to make another provision inoperative. That is first year law school stuff.
"No constitutional provision should be interpreted to make another provision inoperative. That is first year law school stuff."
And if preventing states from judging the qualifications of congressional candidates made Section 4 inoperative, that would be a great point.
The interpretation you are contending for would make Section 4 inoperative to the Cawthorn matter. That is a result to be avoided.
It would be inoperative in the same sense that it was inoperative in the Term Limits matter. So what?
A court would be sufficient. Is it the only way?
It is clear a motivated party acting as it it were obvious is partisan. Hopelessly so? Clearly such an insurrectionist declaration cannot be such.
Also, the Congressional Research Service has provided information but no guidance in answering this question.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10569
It would seem to be sufficient. Not sure if required.
Requiring it would seem to come about from stopping a bunch of political opposition declaring it-qua-royalty.
Reading through the article-length version of the argument, it has some rather glaring gaps that are patched up with little more than chewing gum.
Muller cites, I believe, no more than a single state supreme court case that actually held what he wants it to have held. Much of the rest of the article is hinged on Thornton's inapposite holding, a pattern of practice in Congress, and a lot of "not inconsistent with" and "accords" that aren't very compelling.
His argument is weakest perhaps where it is most important, which is in considering a state's ability to exclude a candidate for congressional office from a ballot, as disqualified per the Constitution's requirements. While conceding that Congress's "exclusive" authority to determine the qualification of its members does not technically extend to questions about mere candidates, states disqualifying candidates on bona fide Constitutional grounds (i.e., consistent with Thornton) are still somehow "usurping" Congress's authority, citing only a few examples where Congress disregarded a disqualifying condition on its own.
Both of your arguments mirror my reaction. But if you read the "for more" link at the end of the above post, it appears that Muller's argument is that states can't make any decisions about eligibility. The constitution says that Congress is the judge of the qualifications of members. If Vladimir Putin's 12 year old nephew wants to be on the ballot, despite the fact that he is not 25, nor a citizen, nor a resident of the state, the state can't turn him down; only Congress can say he's ineligible.
Now, I don't know why Muller's argument doesn't also mean that states can't have signature requirements for ballot access. (I suspect his argument is that this regulates the "manner" of elections rather than regulating the qualifications of candidates, but that seems arbitrary and unconvincing to me.)
Section of the 14th Amendment:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
This says nothing about elections (or ballot access). Consider the
22nd Amendment:
No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.
It talks about elections.
Thus, isn't the issue not that an insurrectionist can't be elected / appointed, but can't serve? Nitpicky distinction, but, you know, lawyers ...
There is a certain elegance in writing. Clearly if they cannot serve because of a listed infirmity, they cannot take office or be elected.
On the other hand, we need a sentence saying if someone is not eleigible for president, they are not eligible for vice president. And we still get scurrilous arguments to work around even that in a context of weaseling in an ex president for a 3rd term.
One thing is certain: politicians are weasels. Parasitic-loaded weasels.
Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is silent as to what body or tribunal should make the determination of disqualification for insurrection. It should, however, be read in pari materia with Article I, Section 4. Clause 1, which states:
The North Carolina legislature has created the system for the State Board of Elections to determine the manner of determining challenges to candidates' qualifications. Of course, per Thornton the state cannot create qualifications over and above those specified in the Constitution itself.
It appears to me that the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, and Article I, Section 4, read together, authorize the North Carolina legislative scheme.
Article 1 does not mention qualifications at all. The qualifications for office are elsewhere.
The disqualifying criterion here was created upon adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment.
"The North Carolina legislature has created the system for the State Board of Elections to determine the manner of determining challenges to candidates' qualifications."
Which Congress gets to do, since you also have to read it in pari materia with Article I, Section 5. Clause 1.
Uh, Congress is not a state legislature, which has the prerogative to act in the first instance as to the manner of electing Senators and Representatives. The State cannot impose qualifications over and above those specified in the Constitution itself (such as not having participated in insurrection or rebellion per Amendment 14, Section 3).
Sigh. The state legislature gets to prescribe the times, places and manner of holding elections. Congress gets to judge the qualifications of its members.
Unless you've got a convincing argument that determining whether or not someone has participated in insurrection or rebellion is the former and not the latter, I'd say you're cooked.
How is legislative enactment of a method of determining a challenge to the constitutional qualifications of a candidate not a prescription of the manner of holding an election?
The only thing it has to do with the election is whether a particular candidate is qualified. That's not a time, place, and manner question.
Do you have any authority supporting your ipse dixit assertion?
You go first. Your idea of "time, place and manner" is squarely opposed to what we see in First Amendment law, which is also geared towards citizen involvement in public life and governance.
What First Amendment authorities do you rely upon? Time, place and manner regulation of speech is a doctrine separate from time, place and manner of conducting elections. For example, it would be absurd to posit the existence of ample alternate channels for the conduct of elections.
I surmise that your dodging my question means that you are without relevant authority.
"How is legislative enactment of a method of determining a challenge to the constitutional qualifications of a candidate not a prescription of the manner of holding an election?"
For the same reason adding additional qualifications isn't a prescription of the manner of holding an election.
Congress gets to judge the qualifications of the candidates, not state.
Adding additional qualifications would be a prescription of the manner of holding an election, albeit an impermissible one per U. S. Term Limits v. Thornton. Congress, if it chooses, can modify state legislative prescriptions. In the case of the North Carolina statutory scheme, Congress has not done so.
And regardless of whether you call a process to judge candidates' qualifications a manner of holding an election, it is not a permissible one under Article 1 Section V, which reserves that power to each house.
I have acknowledged that North Carolina's statutory scheme may present a question of first impression. Do you have supporting authority for your position.
Let Cawthorn quit running away like Derrick Henry, submit to discovery and an evidentiary hearing (which, IMO, he is likely to win), and if he loses before both the hearing panel and the full NCSBE, raise the constitutional question in the North Carolina Court of Appeals. From there, discretionary review by the Supreme Court of North Carolina and SCOTUS is a possibility.
Cawthorn just wants to avoid giving account under oath for his conduct.
"I have acknowledged that North Carolina's statutory scheme may present a question of first impression. Do you have supporting authority for your position."
Lots of things are technically "questions of first impression" precisely because there is a clear answer in the constitutional text. AFAIK whether or not a 30 year old can be president is a question of first impression.
"Cawthorn just wants to avoid giving account under oath for his conduct."
Sure, why else would somebody want to avoid discovery, etc. Just like how only guilty people take the fifth, amirite?
"...which, IMO, he is likely to win..."
And why is he likely to win? He's going to say he didn't participate in an insurrection, but he'd say that whether or not he did. How's he supposed to prove that he didn't participate in an insurrection?
Cawthorn is likely to win because the facts set forth in the complaint, while sufficient to clear the low bar of reasonable suspicion, are not all that persuasive, in my opinion.
Cawthorn's testimony, if believed, would likely carry the day. His efforts to avoid discovery and a hearing, however, lead me to wonder if there is dirt that is not yet known.
He is not acting like a man confident in his innocence.
In any event, the North Carolina scheme has been triggered, and the matter should proceed to discovery and an evidentiary hearing. Younger abstention should dispose of Cawthorn's suit for a federal court injunction, and Cawthorn can present his federal claims in the state administrative/judicial system.
"He is not acting like a man confident in his innocence."
He's acting like a man who's aware that being factually innocent isn't necessarily going to help him, because there's a difference between being factually innocent, and being able to prove t that you're factually innocent.
Which is why we require guilt to be proved in this country, not innocence. Except in NC ballot challenges.
"His efforts to avoid discovery and a hearing, however, lead me to wonder if there is dirt that is not yet known."
Huh. I wonder if that's why Nancy Peloci, to date, has refused to release the emails leading up to her decision to refuse President Trump's request for National Guardsmen, and for refusing to have a sufficient number of police officers on the ground for the protest of the expected size, on January 6th.
Seriously, if we're going to read sininster motives into refusals like this for one side, we should be prepared to do it with everyone.
The validity of applying North Carolina's scheme for challenging candidates' qualifications to a member of Congress may be a question of first impression. The challengers and Rep. Cawthon will have a full and fair opportunity to make an evidentiary record before the NCSEB hearing panel, with de novo review by the full State Election Board and appeal as of right to the North Carolina Court of Appeals. Discretionary review by the North Carolina Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court may be available.
The 14th amendment does not say an insurrectionist can't be elected or appointed. It does say they can't serve unless given an exception by congress. This presumably must happen after the election or appointment (though for offices that require Senate approval, this seems odd, approval then get a dispensation? Ah, forget it Jake, is Congress.)
The 14th amendment is not silent about "what body or tribunal should make the determination of disqualification for insurrection".
See Section 5, its spelled out very clearly:
"The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
That is very definitive about who decides what process for the determination of disqualification is, Congress, via legislation. And Congress didn't just leave it hanging out there, they followed through with:
"18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
So clearly the text of the 14th amendment leaves it up to Congress, Congress has acted, and there is no room for North Carolina elections board to institute is own procedures and usurp Congress' clear power to decide the process.
I don't find the idea that because Congress might in future remove a disqualification, there is no current disqualification - (stipulating that the candidate engaged in the necessary insurrection.)
But i do find Article 1. 5 convincing :
Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members
This seems pretty clear. Any other body - State or Federal, judicial, executive or legislative, which seeks to judge the qualifications of a member is usurping the relevant Chamber's powers. And it seems to me that a State authority disqualifying a candidate from the ballot, because the State authority believes that if the candidate is elected, the House ought to judge him disquaified, is the same usurpation.
However, once the House has in fact judged him disqualified as a member, it seems to me that a State authority would thereafter be entitled to exclude him from the ballot for future elections, the House having confirmed his disqualification. So if the House now judged Mr Cawthorn to be disqualified as an insurrectionist, North Carolina could exclude him from the ballot in future - and no court could reinstate him.
That does of course leave open the question as to who is the proper judge for judging people disqualified for offices other than in Congress.
There was no "insurrection" or anything of the such. It was just some mostly peaceful tourists taking pictures of a building that was open to the public. Can't throw someone off the ballot for an allegation that just is patently false.
"It was just some mostly peaceful tourists taking pictures of a building that was open to the public."
Is that as true as everything else you have said?
It's at least as true as everything the Democrats and media reported about the mostly peaceful burning looting and murdering that went on all spring and summer.
Resort to tu quoque is a sure admission of having no substantive response.
You just say that because you have no substantive response.
He's right, he made no dishonest claims about January 6th that you won't hear ad nauseum about the last couple years' riots. Suddenly on January 6th rioting became a horror no civilized nation could tolerate, after a couple years of it being treated as hardly more than an expression of high spirits.
You've switched to attacking the press from defending Jan 6. Not hard to see why, but also not hard to see what you're doing.
I will stipulate that those who engaged in criminal conduct in the riots you reference should be prosecuted. That having been said, that has absolutely nothing to do with giving those who breached the Capitol on January 6 a get out of jail free card.
Your red herring stinks, as it is designed to do.
I don't think those who did the beaching SHOULD get out of jail free.
Those who walked in after the breaching occurred, and the evidence of breaching had been concealed? And who did nothing more than play tourist? Yeah, they should be let off.
The fact remains that the last couple of years have seen repeated violent attacks on government facilities, including arson of occupied federal court buildings, and police stations burned to the ground, and whole sections of cities being taken over, and nobody was charging "insurrection". Or claiming that members of Congress who encouraged it and/or aided the guilty parties with bail money were disqualified from federal office going forward.
If January 6th had happened in isolation, it would have been horribly shocking. After the last couple of years, it's more a case of, "Oh, Republicans can riot, too? Who saw that coming..."
The fact remains you keep looking over there to keep from looking over here.
Whether in Jan 06 or not, it was really bad and you should not be minimizing it by forever looking at the summer of 2020.
We can discuss how different or the same the two events are all day, but that doesn't change anything about Jan 06.
Yes, really bad, but far less shocking after a couple years of as bad or worse.
I'm not minimizing it, I'm putting it in context. It's not my fault you react to context the way a vampire does to sunlight.
"The fact remains you keep looking over there to keep from looking over here."
Maybe he looks over there to point out the inconsistency with which some people tend to view the protests.
Which is a legitimate topic.
Alphabet's post, and Brett's followup are not about hypocrisy, they are about minimizing whether Jan 06 is a big deal.
IOW, textbook tu quoque.
"Alphabet's post, and Brett's followup are not about hypocrisy, they are about minimizing whether Jan 06 is a big deal."
"big deal" is a relative term.
No, big deal is by it's very language not a relative term.
Tu quoque is one of the most frequently misunderstood fallacies out there. And you're doing a really good job of demonstrating it.
"Tu quoque" is in the form of, "You're guilty, therefore I must be innocent." Which is a fallacy, because we can both be guilty.
What is never tu quoque is "You're guilty, too!", and that's what I'm pointing out. If you complain that my shit stinks, and I point out that yours does, too, THAT'S NOT TU QUOQUE. That's just "context".
Yeah, January 6th was bad, no denying that. What it wasn't, after two years of the left rioting, was shocking. The only shocking thing about it was that it demonstrated that the right could riot, too. Which had to start happening eventually, rioting wasn't going to remain a left-wing monopoly forever.
"No, big deal is by its very language not a relative term"
Still a relative term. It's a big deal compared to what?
What is never tu quoque is "You're guilty, too!", and that's what I'm pointing out.
That is. Literally. tu-quoque.
TiP, bigger and biggest are relative. Big is absolute.
This has been middle school grammar.
You are using 'you're guilty' to say things about your own guilt; that much is clear.
Shocking is also an absolute term.
In general, the right-wing practice of pointing to their characterization of the actions of their opponents to justify their own actions is a great way to rationalize anything, no matter how venal, because of how hard they demonize their opponents.
By your tu quoque do you discard all principles.
"TiP, bigger and biggest are relative. Big is absolute."
Lol. Is eight a big number, or a little number?
If you're confused by this, you might find this dictionary entry helpful:
"If you say that something is relative, you mean that it needs to be considered and judged in relation to other things.
Fitness is relative; one must always ask "Fit for what?""
"That is. Literally. tu-quoque."
Presumably you were referring to the tu-quoque fallacy and just talking Latin for fun, right? How has Brett engaged in the tu-quoque fallacy?
"TiP, bigger and biggest are relative. Big is absolute.
This has been middle school grammar."
I think you're confusing relative and absolute with comparative and superlative.
A relative term is one that admits of degrees. There are degrees of big and degrees of shocking.
An absolute term is something like "cube". Something is either a cube or it's not.
The thing I love about you, Brett, is how certain you are about stuff without actually being right about any of it.
That is literally what tu quoque is. It's not just a random collection of letters; it's a Latin phrase. And that phrase means, in English, "you also." Not "you instead of me." But "you also."
"That is. Literally. tu-quoque."
You. Literally. Haven't. A. Clue.
THIS is "tu quoque, the fallacy, as originally understood:
"Person A claims that statement X is true.
Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
Therefore, X is false."
Without the claim that X is false, you don't have a tu quoque! You've just got an accusation of hypocrisy, but such accusations are not logical fallacies. You might not LIKE being accused of hypocrisy, but such accusations aren't inherently fallacious.
I'm not saying January 6th was peachy because Democrats rioted for two years. I'm saying Democrats are hypocrites for freaking out over Republicans rioting for one day after they rioted for two years.
Brett is saying Jan 06 is not a big deal/outrage because of some other people doing something he charges is similar.
This is not context; this is looking the other way.
He's saying it's not a big deal/outrage because it's similar to other mostly peaceful protests that people let pass without getting outraged or making a big deal. That's context.
I like the "as originally understood," as if you're talking about some ancient truth rather than your misunderstanding.
No, Brett. Tu quoque is a charge of hypocrisy. The fallacy comes in the typically implicit argument that calling an accuser a hypocrite refutes their accusation.
Yes, "as originally understood". That is to say, I'm talking about the actual logical fallacy, the original old school meaning of it, not the expanded definition designed to pull in things that are vaguely similar, but not fallacies. Such as accusing somebody of being a hypocrite.
"No, Brett. Tu quoque is a charge of hypocrisy. The fallacy comes in the typically implicit argument that calling an accuser a hypocrite refutes their accusation."
And I have expressly denied that I'm refuting the accusation. Because I'm not arguing that rioting at the Capitol wasn't bad. I'm just arguing that it wasn't any worse than what Democrats were doing for two years prior.
There is never an "implicit" argument that one has expressly rejected. You just don't want the hypocrisy of freaking out over January 6th, and treating two years of deadly riots as no big deal, discussed.
Which defendants were merely playing tourist? Please identify them specifically.
Here is a list of defendants and the offenses they are charged with. https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1
Those who walked in after the breaching occurred, and the evidence of breaching had been concealed?
Concealed? You mean those broken windows and doors were magically repaired within minutes?
Tourists? Tourists don't search through desk drawers, steal furniture, yell about hanging people, etc. The also tend not to enter buildings that are plainly under attack, unless they are part of the attack.
LOL!
https://projects.propublica.org/parler-capitol-videos/
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/capitol-riot-weapons-charges
Historically, until relatively recently, the states regulated who could vote, but exerted no control over who they could vote FOR. There wasn't even such a thing as "ballot access" until around the time of the Civil war, because the state wasn't printing the ballots! The voter was writing their candidate's name on a slip of paper, or using a ballot preprinted by a candidate or party.
The right to vote was the right to vote for whoever you damned well pleased.
Around 1860 states began printing ballots for voters as a convenience, which allowed them the power to regulate who you could easily vote for, but refusing to let people simply write in the name of a candidate the state didn't print is a relatively recent development, and still not widespread.
Absent a prohibition on write-in votes, the state wasn't regulating who you could vote for. Just who you could easily vote for.
The OP seems to be arguing that states can't have ballot access rules either.
Or at least can't have a prohibition on write in votes. Yes, that's an obvious implication.
Frankly, it was an obvious implication all along, and use of "ballot access" to control who people could vote for was only being tolerated because the victims were essentially exclusively third party candidates.
Now that they're escalating to try to use it against major party candidates, there's going to be some push-back, and maybe the courts will finally take the legal issues seriously.
It would be unconstitutional if the [North Crolina state election] board attempted to take Mr. Cawthorn off the ballot.
That's a stronger thesis than the one you are defending.
Yes, it is. I'm pointing out that, so long as write in votes are permitted, being "taken off the ballot" is merely a severe inconvenience for a candidate, it is not the functional equivalent of disqualifying them from office. Or at least you could argue that.
Once you take write in votes off the table, it becomes much clearer that a "disqualification" has been introduced.
OK. I agree with you on that point, though I think it's pretty trivial.
Actually, looks like I'm wrong on that, as DMN points out. At least some restrictions from ballot access count as restrictions on election access, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Term_Limits,_Inc._v._Thornton
Yeah, if you're a member of a major party. Not otherwise, some animals are more equal than others.
We have a term "sticker candidate" around here describing somebody who distributes preprinted stickers to place on the write-in line.
Now you have to watch for people distributing misspelled stickers, which can be even worse if they facetiously distribute a lookalike name of a person who actually exists, to work around the long jail sentences they so richly deserve.
Until about 1860 or so, they were ALL sticker candidates. Ballot access wasn't an issue because the government wasn't printing ballots, and thus wasn't dictating who you could vote for.
If, in 2019, anyone here had asked if breaking into the Capitol with the goal of keeping a President in office who had been elected out was an “insurrection” under the 14A, everyone here, all the VC’ers and every commenter, would have said “of course!”
Well, maybe you'd have to put that question a little further back, i.e. from behind a veil of ignorance about who would be the incumbent.
Well, you might just notice that nobody is claiming that people who broke into the Capitol couldn't have a Section 3 problem. And you might notice that we're discussing its application to people who didn't break into the Capitol. Rendering whether the break in was an 'insurrection' somewhat beside the point.
Really, I suppose there'd be far less resistance to describing January 6th as an 'insurrection', if it weren't for the glaring double standard about what gets that term stuck to it, and the attempt to implicate people who didn't do anything illegal.
Rep. Cawthon helped to gin up the crowd on January 6. I think the evidence of his participation in insurrection is thin, but sufficient to clear the low bar of reasonable suspicion. Let both sides of the controversy engage in discovery and have their hearing.
Oh, dear, he "helped to gin up the crowd"! Where's my fainting couch, I might need it.
The problem here is that the NC statute is intended to resolve questions of residency and age, and the like, and as such places the burden on the candidate once an allegation is made that they are unqualified. It is normally quite easy to prove where you reside, or your age.
Proving the negative when you're accused of involvement in a crime? Rather more difficult. But that's what is being demanded of Rep. Cawthon.
What negative proof does not guilty ask for? He seems to be calling for the usual hearing, with the usual burdens.
Sarcastro, it specifically states that, once the allegation is made, it is up to the candidate to prove they're qualified. That's the burden on them, not on the person making the allegation.
Easy enough if you're running for the Senate and somebody is alleging you're too young, or Rep, and somebody is alleging that you don't live in the district.
Now prove you didn't commit a crime.
Now prove you didn't commit a crime.
Well, he'd have to prove both less and more than that. The insurrection referred to in the 14th amendment doesn't have to be a crime - nowhere does it say that it needs to be - but it does need to be insurrection.
Then again, as frequently established when people here were trying to argue that impeachment was unfair, nobody has a liberty right to hold political office.
Soi an insureection us what the Board of Elections say it is?
Presumably if the Board of Elections kicks you off the ballot, there is a judicial remedy. And then we're back to "it is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is." In the end there would simply be a court case where Cawthorn would have to convince a court that the factual findings made by the Board of Elections either weren't open to them, or are legally insufficient for a finding of insurrection. What the standard of proof for that would be I'll leave up to specialists in (North Carolina) administrative law, but it definitely doesn't involve anyone being put on trial.
Brett, I think you're mixing up rebutting with proving a negative.
This appears to be standard burden shifting - prosecution makes a prima fascia case, then over to the defense to rebut.
If the rebuttal is insufficient, the case goes to trial, with the burden of proof back on the prosecution but this time with the appropriate quantum for guilt.
No, upon the filing of an affidavit of reasonable suspicion, the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence devolves upon and remains with the challenged candidate before the hearing panel and on de novo appeal to the full State Election Board. I haven't researched the standard of review on appeal as of right to the North Carolina Court of Appeals.
OK, so it's a civil procedure, and I was stuck in crim-land.
A civil procedure where you have to prove a negative.
No, TiP. Burden shifting is not proving a negative, it's rebutting evidence.
"No, TiP. Burden shifting is not proving a negative, it's rebutting evidence."
Not the framework that's described here.
Let's say Person A files an affidavit that says that he saw Cawthorn engaged in insurrection on Jan 6th, which meets we burden of reasonable suspicion.
Cawthorn proves that Person A was in Chicago on Jan 6th and couldn't have seen any insurrection.
He still hasn't proved he didn't do any insurrection and is qualified to be elected.
This stands in contrast with other requirements like residency requirements, where you can meet the burden by proving that you are a resident of the state.
Rebutting the initial case is sufficient to bear the burden in very example I've ever seen; I don't see anything indicating the scope changes.
The only issue I see is reasonable sus->preponderance in the burden shifting, but I don't know enough to know if that's kosher or not.
That's not what the NC Statuesays:
"The burden of proof shall be upon the candidate, who must show by a preponderance of the evidence of the record as a whole that he or she is qualified to be a candidate for the office."
Keep in mind that this isn't really burden-shifting, somebody has to submit an affidavit of reasonable suspicion to get a hearing, but at the hearing, the candidate bears the burden of proof. I don't think rebutting the initial affidavit is enough.
Look at the very next language, about 'a question of residency' and look how the scope mirrors the challenge.
You're reading in trouble where none exists.
It doesn't mirror the challenge, it sets out things the candidate must prove regardless of what the evidence that generated the challenge is.
So to adapt my hypo, if the hearing is based on an affidavit that a real estate agent sold me a house in another state, it's not sufficient for me to show that she didn't sell me a house, I have to establish my residency by the criteria in the statute.
You're reading what you want to read, Sarcastro.
It sets out evidence specific to the scope of the objection - i.e. residency. That seems like the legislature is assuming the scope is defined by the objection.
Seems to me the natural reading of the language does not include a sudden implied shift in scope. And even if that were the natural reading, one avoids readings that that create a Constitutional issue.
"It sets out evidence specific to the scope of the objection - i.e. residency."
That's different than your initial claim, which was that you only have to rebut the original evidence.
So someone says he heard you say you lived in another state, you don't just have to prove that he didn't hear you say that, you have to prove that you live in NC. I suppose it implies that if the objection is residency, you don't have to prove that you didn't do an insurrection, but so what?
Back to the original example, under your reading, if somebody says that they saw Cawthorn do participate in an insurrection, then the objection would be insurrection, and you have to prove that you didn't participate in an insurrection.
There is no burden shifting. The affidavit of reasonable suspicion is a means of giving notice to the NCSBE and the challenged candidate notice of what facts the challengers rely upon. The complaint is not evidence. Upon filing of the complaint the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence devolves upon the candidate and remains there. With this notice given, the parties have the opportunity to engage in discovery to develop facts to be presented to the hearing panel.
Evidence is presented, through affidavits and testimony of witnesses under oath, to the hearing panel. Until the presiding officer says to the candidate, "Call your first witness," there is no evidence in the record. The burden never shifts.
The questions for determination by the hearing panel are: (1) did the candidate take an oath as a member of Congress to uphold the Constitution, and (2) did the candidate thereafter engage in insurrection or rebellion. The candidate's testimony, if believed, should be enough to carry the day, but both sides have a full and fair opportunity to present relevant evidence, including evidence of credibility or lack thereof.
So the candidate has to prove that he never swore the relevant oath, or that he's never participated in an insurrection. That's what I've been saying.
"The candidate's testimony, if believed, should be enough to carry the day..."
But the candidate's self-serving testimony certainly shouldn't be believed unless there's something specifically credible about it. If he participated in an insurrection, he's going to lie about it. That's one reason we don't place burdens on accused in the first place.
And in particular don't require people to prove that they didn't commit a vague crime at some unknown location during a long period of time many years past. (As a certain Justice has reason to appreciate.)
Insurrection would seem to be more serious than a normal crime, not less. Think POW type stuff. Or capital punishment danger.
Something that should be obvious to all parties is being wrenched around to be a political attack on the opposition. Hence it is dubious at best.
Yes, the burden of proof rests upon Rep. Cawthon. Appoint a hearing panel and start with discovery. If the facts are in the Congressman's favor, he should have very little trouble accounting for his conduct.
Rep. Cawthon, though, is trying to pre-empt the statutory procedures entirely. He has sued in U. S. District Court, notwithstanding the doctrine of abstention pursuant to Younger v. Harris, 401 U.S. 37 (1971). That suit is palpably improper.
So reversal of the burden of peoof, then.
No reversal. From the filing of an affidavit of reasonable suspicion, the burden of proof to show qualification is at all times with the challenged candidate.
I think he meant a reversal from normal due process. Which is invariably based on a presumption the accused is innocent.
NC is, IIRC, the only state that places the burden of proof on the candidate, which I'd assume is the reason Cawthon is the only Rep facing this.
No, this is normal due process. Shifting the burden of proof is super common in torts cases, for instance.
If it applies here, that is not some big anti-due process outrage.
If the quantum of proof to shift the burden is reasonable suspicion, as is claimed, then yes, that would be very unusual, and probably a due process outrage.
No, it actually IS a some big anti-due process outrage, since the only thing necessary to put the ball in his court was an accusation. That's all an "affidavit of reasonable suspicion" is, after all: An accusation.
You have to state what you're alleging, nothing more. Once you've done that, the candidate has to prove you wrong.
Except for the de novo review by the election board if the burden is not met by the defense, TiP.
Brett, you don't know what you're talking about.
Brett and TwelveInchPianist, the leading case on what process is due for administrative law proceedings is Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319 (1976). Does either of you have any authority that the North Carolina statutes, which provide numerous procedural safeguards, fail to comport with the tripartite framework of the Mathews test? If so, please give citations.
Otherwise, you are just blathering "I don't like it."
I've linked to it, and I've read it, and I've read the complaint, and it's all premised on the burden of proof being on the candidate once an accusation is leveled.
It's the only state where challenges are set up that way.
And, yeah, I don't like it. It's fine if what's alleged is that you're not actually living in your district, or that you're too young for the position, or what have you. Such things are easy to prove.
It's not fine when what's alleged is that you're guilty of some criminal act, and suddenly you have to prove that, no, you're innocent.
Brett, it's not a question of guilt. This is not a criminal proceeding. No one is trying to lock Mr. Cawthorn up. Get over your ignorant fixation.
And your failure to answer my Mathews question is duly noted. If you have no authority, just say so.
It is absolutely a question of guilt, regardless of whether you face jail time, if the claim you have to deal with is an accusation you committed a criminal act.
Examining guilt or the lack thereof is the province of a criminal trial. I can explain the differences in an administrative/civil judicial proceeding to you, but I can't understand it for you.
So, you're focusing on some distinction between "guilt" and "whether he did it"???
"not" guilty, it is a matter of guilt, because you can only be disqualified if you are guilty of insurrection.
At this point, I think the best remedy would be to accuse every Representative of North Carolina of being guilty of insurrection, and letting every Representative of North Carolina prove they weren't.
“Gin up”? You are clearly trying to violate his 1st Amdt rights to free speech. Could his speech have been criminally prosecuted as incitement to insurrection, or any other criminal act (even ignoring his Speech and Debate protections)? It very likely could not be. Now, if the Feds could get some convictions for Insurrection, and get those people to testify that they only acted due to his incitement, you would have a case. But all they have are Dem politicians yelling “Incitement to Insurrection” at one of their Republican colleagues. Both sides in Congress, and esp in the House, accuse members of the other party of heinous crimes all the time. Because of this, I believe the House still has a ban on dueling. It’s nothing new, and is as old as our Republic. Maybe if dueling were revived, it would be lessened.
If Rep. Cawthon contends he has a First Amendment defense, he is free to assert it during the administrative proceeding and on judicial review therefrom in the North Carolina Court of Appeals. See, Ohio Civil Rights Commission v. Dayton Christian Schools Inc., 477 U.S. 619 (1986).
NG,
What do you make of the fact that the House has not expelled Cawthorne and prima facie he has been determined by the relevant authority to be qualified to serve?
That determination has not been made by any authority. The matter is at the pleading stage before the state administrative tribunal, where no evidence has been received nor any discovery had.
Cawthorn has filed a frivolous federal lawsuit seeking to avoid the state administrative proceeding. Younger v. Harris and its progeny plainly require federal abstention.
"That determination has not been made by any authority"
House can you say that? The House has the sole authority to determine its membership. It continues to allow him to serve. Hence by that very fact he is qualified to serve and determined by the only relevant authority.
"Cawthorn has filed a frivolous federal lawsuit seeking to avoid the state administrative proceeding. "
In what sense is it frivolous?
"Breaking into" might be kind of a stretch given all the videos out there for people being let in and led around on tours.
Oh, some people did break in, well before Trump's speech was over, and there was clearly an organized plan to do it. Pretty well planned, with a lot of organization. Planting mock bombs the day before to report at just the right time to divert Capitol police, for instance.
But they then got the evidence that the door was barred out of the way, and the crowd that arrived later did flood in, not even knowing of the earlier break in.
Why would they need to divert the Capital Police when they are all in on it to begin with?
That's just a smokescreen.
What, you think the Capitol police were in on it? That's seriously implausible, you'd have too many people involved, it could never have stayed secret long enough. It's barely possible you could have had a couple inside guys, but that's about the limit in that direction.
These are your bedfellows, Brett.
And the Russian collusion idiots are yours. Every movement has its crazy fringe.
Yeah, but this guy is right here, which seems more awkward for you than my having to deal with whatever twitter hot takes are out there.
Russian collusion is a conveniently flexible scope, compared to the specific event of Jan 06.
Some stuff about Trump and Russia is absolutely improper, and possibly illegal, depending on how you slice the mens rea.
There is no "right here", it's the internet.
Yeah, some stuff alleged about him. It's easy to allege things, proving them is a lot harder.
It's funny you think that there isn't plenty of scope around Jan 6 to be flexible.
That was my first issue -- what is an "insurrection" under the 14th Amendment. Not sure what we saw on Jan. 6 was an insurrection, even viewing things in the worst possible light.
Acc. to Black's Law Dictionary, an Insurrection is:
A rebellion, or rising of citizens or subjects in resistance to their government. See INSURGENT.Insurrection shall consist in any combined resistance to the lawful authority of the state, with intent to the denial thereof, when the same is manifested, or intended to be manifested, by acts of violence. Code Ga. 1882.
General dictionaries have similar definitions.
Point is, an insurrection generally seems to involve some resistance to the authority of the state, or the United States. And may need to involve violence.
The persons involved in the Jan. 6 events were not trying to overthrow the United States, or set up their own country or state. They were trying to install someone in the office of president. Had they succeeded, the United States would have continued as before. So not clear to me that this is an insurrection, certainly not the way the Southern states breaking off to form the Confederacy was.
And the use of violence seems limited, both in scope and number of people involved.
So apart from the who-decides issue, it is not at all clear to me that this was an insurrection within the meaning of the 14th Amendment.
(That it may have been some other federal crime is besides the point.)
"the United States would have continued as before"--I think there is something seriously wrong with this construction! What could it be? Oh yeah, circumventing the process we call the peaceful transfer of power to a dully elected president.
You are begging the question. The fact that something is bad, or anti-democratic, does not mean that it fits within the definition of "insurrection."
More to the point, if, in 2019, anyone here had asked if breaking into the Capitol with the goal of removing a President from office who had been reelected was an “insurrection” under the 14A, everyone here, all the VC’ers and every commenter, would have said “of course!”
Perhaps that may be true, but I'm not as convinced about it as you are.
Be that as it may, however I am convinced that you, personally, along with Sarcastr0, not guilty, and everyone else on your side, would be downplaying it as a peaceful protest that got out of hand. And you would be right, because that was exactly what happened.
Maybe I would be wrong. Maybe, in this alternate universe, we'd be here, in 100% complete agreement, that Nancy Pelosi should have been removed from Congress, because she incited an Insurrection.
But I doubt it. I bet, if anything, the conversation would be completely the same, except that you'd be on the side of the Democrat facing removal from the ballot for alleged Insurrection.
Marc Elias is part of the Clinton group who have been outed as spying on a sitting President.
If we had any courage as a nation, we would be building gallows somewhere on the D.C. mall.
Yeah, the latest revelations from the Durham probe are pretty damning, I have to say. Had he not waited until Trump was safely out of office to find all this, the principals would be in some serious legal jeopardy.
As it is, probably high fives all around, and possibly some barn doors nailed shut next year to keep it from happening to a President the establishment doesn't hate.
LOL "damning" ok.
"But only 1000 connections to Russia came from Trump's properties, the whole country had 3 million!"
Durham has nothing but drawing the most tenuous, ridiculous conclusions possible from weak evidence that's usually based on poorly remembered statements from a single individual.
I can't even fathom being stupid enough to think that's damning and the Mueller report is an exoneration.
Perhaps you're not familiar with the allegations, which is that the Clinton organization suborned a company involved in providing IT services to the Trump administration, to actually spy on Presidential communications?
Yes, Hillary Clinton spied on Donald Trump — while he was president
You linked to an opinion piece again.
In the filing, which was obtained by the Washington Examiner, Durham said he has evidence that “Technology Executive-1,” known to be former Neustar Senior Vice President Rodney Joffe, worked with indicted Clinton campaign lawyer Michael Sussmann to exploit internet traffic data and access “dedicated servers for the Executive Office of the President of the United States (EOP).” Joffe then “exploited this arrangement by mining the EOP’s DNS traffic and other data for the purpose of gathering derogatory information about Donald Trump,” the filing says.
Joffe also “enlisted the assistance of researchers at a U.S.-based university” who had access to “large amounts of Internet data in connection with a pending federal government cybersecurity research contract,” Durham said.
It is not clear to me any of that is illegal, much less counts as spying.
When the Washington Examiner refuses to publish something as news, you should probably do a bit of digging.
Yes, he "also" did legal things. Probably ate breakfast during this period, too.
What illegal things do you see?
Why would I have seen anything? I'm not one of Durham's witnesses.
He's claimed to have used the access given to hack into White House servers. Yes, shockingly, that isn't legal.
That is not what this article appears to say.
"In the filing, which was obtained by the Washington Examiner, Durham said he has evidence that “Technology Executive-1,” known to be former Neustar Senior Vice President Rodney Joffe, worked with indicted Clinton campaign lawyer Michael Sussmann to exploit internet traffic data and access “dedicated servers for the Executive Office of the President of the United States (EOP).”"
Not seeing it. Dedicated does not mean it's illegal to access, unless you have more.
This is an opinion piece; this reads like spin outta nothing to me.
Maybe I'm wrong; but you have certainly not established you're right.
Wow. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act
White House servers would fall under (a)(1), (a)(2)(b) and (c), (a)(3), and probably (a)(4) assuming that political intel qualifies as "a thing of value".
No, Brett. There is no allegation that anyone accessed any computer without authority.
Try thinking for one fraction of one millisecond, rather than just relying on what you read in Epoch Times. Do you think that if Durham had information that someone had illegally hacked into a White House server, that he would have buried this in an oblique reference in a filing asking the court to inquire about whether Sussman had waived any potential conflicts of interest? (As opposed to, you know, securing an indictment against the person who had done this hacking?)
In fact, this isn't new, and isn't about hacking. It's about DNS mining, and was widely reported in the past.
Sarcrastr0 and David Nieporent, I have a hard time believing your dismissal of something like the Epoch Times, when, after having been censored by Big Tech over the past few years for things like suggesting that COVID likely came from a lab in Wuhan, or that Hunter Biden had a laptop that proved he smoked crack -- only to have these things, after being suppressed, to be proven right in the end.
Your side has a good track record of trying to cover up the truth, and then trying to convince the rest of us that, when we see the truth, we're believing in "conspiracy theories".
Indeed, at this point, I am willing to accept this story because of your eagerness to pretend it didn't happen.
Hard to know without specifics, but generally if you have access to data for cybersecurity research, you're not allowed to sell it to political consultants.
If that's legal, somebody somewhere is fucking up royally.
Maybe, if the access was actually pursuant to a contract.
The thesis is - 'Yes, Hillary Clinton spied on Donald Trump — while he was president.'
This opinion piece does not appear to establish that Hillary did anything.
"Maybe, if the access was actually pursuant to a contract."
Your quote said, "in connection with". I'm assuming that that's similar to "pursuant".
No, that's true. It merely established that somebody working for Hillary is claimed to have did something on her behalf.
Brett, have you read Durham's filing? It is asking the District Court to inquire into whether a conflict of interest exists for the defense lawyer's firm and, if so, whether such a conflict may be waivable by the accused.
That document, at this point, is not proof of anything.
That's why I've said that it's damning if true.
What statute(s) do you contend were violated? Please specify by title and section numbers.
Still waiting. What statute(s)?
Do you think it's legal for a political campaign with the aid of FBI contractors to intercept the Executive Office of the President's network traffic?
I mean, do you really need a specific statute that would demonstrate that? Or can you reason that for yourself?
Whether I think it's legal means shit. The relevant question is whether Congress has enacted a criminal statute covering the conduct at issue.
When and where did you get your legal training, if any, BravoCharlieDelta?
You actually do need a specific statute before you can call something illegal.
I haven't followed the matter closely, but it appears the issue before the court that Durham has raised is whether there is a conflict for the defense counsel firm and, if so, whether that conflict is waivable by the accused. It is a far stretch to characterize that motion as proof of anything.
I see the Examiner news desk backpedalled in a followup the next day.
Joffe had a contract to provide DNS services to several entities including the EOP, and according to the followup article the terms of the contract permitted analysis of the DNS traffic to identify security breaches or threats. Rather than "hacking a White House server", Joffe accessed data from his own server, data that he was explicitly entitled to use.
By "revelations" you mean "allegations," right?
Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment disqualifies rebels, insurrectionists, etc. from holding any office in the federal government. Several people have pointed to the "qualifications of its own members" clause as giving the House of Representatives power to decide whether this applies to Cawthorn. Who decides whether the clause applies to perspective judges or executive branch officers?
The President and the Senate
"North Carolina voters may have good reasons to not want Rep. Cawthorn as one of their representatives in Congress. (I sure wouldn't.)"
This line is distracting and unneccesssry. Recommend you delete it.
I agree, it really detracts from the article; What relevance do Adler's political preferences have to the legal issue at hand? All bringing them up does is raise the suspicion he's having trouble avoiding his personal feeling influencing his legal judgments.
We already know North Carolina voters don't agree with Adler, the guy has already been elected once.
the guy has already been elected once.
Which is utterly amazing, given that he's a completely worthless piece of shit, known to have lied, for example, about his friend deserting him in the accident that left him paralyzed, about having been admitted to Annapolis, etc.
Why do you carry such hate on your heart for the differently abled?
At this point, we should be amazed that all 535 members of Congress have been elected to that office.
If being completely worthless was a disqualifying condition of Congress, apparently our Capitol would be empty.
You're turning the ability of Congress to remove such a disability into an affirmative requirement to declare the disability to exist by formal vote?
And if I'm to understanding the reasoning correctly, North Carolina cannot require a Presidential candidate to be 35 (by Jan 20th) to appear on the ballot either, and whether a candidate who wouldn't be 35 by inauguration can assume office is something that can only be enforced by Congress (or perhaps SCOTUS)? Because the post is essentially making the argument that the requirements in the Constitution cannot be enacted by a state for ballot access, since like requiring the age of 35 for the presidency, the requirement to not have taken part in an insurrection is found in the constitution. This strikes me as a very tenuous argument. Imagine the chaos if states starting putting 20 somethings on the ballot for Presidentl this argument says they must be allowed.
The only strong argument would be the factual question of what establishes someone has having participated in an insurrection as a matter of law.
The argument is that the judgment as to whether a congressional candidate is qualified is textually committed to congress itself. Not so for presidents.
If the only way you can win is to get your opponent kicked off the ballot as an "insurrectionist"...
I think you misunderstand. This district will always elect a Republican. It's just that, if the Republican party decides that it doesn't mind having candidates who advocate(d) the overthrow of US democracy, it would probably be good if someone else did mind.
Let’s rephrase that: If the Republican Party doesn’t mind having candidates that Democrats claim advocated the overthrow of Democracy (through acceptance of likely fraudulent election results by the Democrats), it would (according to you) probably be good if someone else (I.e. a Democrat) does.
Not according to me. According to the drafters of the 14th amendment.
But first, let's establish (1) that an Insurrection actually did happen, and that (2) said Congresscritter actually did participate in it.
Then we should be talking about the 14th Amendment.
"This district will always elect a Republican."
So its worth the inevitable GOP retaliation? The GOP is not going to calmly take an un-elected Democratic controlled board doing this.
Not everything is a political calculus.
So what would stop the inevitable backlash?
Some things, you don't get scared off by political threats.
Another "Trumpist" will get elected instead.
Punishing some young punk like Cawthorne is not worth the risk to the political process but whatever, go ahead with virtue signaling prettied up in a semi-legal process.
Don't care abut Jan 06 or the Republic gets it?
Sorry if I don't buy your political analysis that amounts to a heckler's veto. If the GOP is going to wreck the republic over this, then they're going to have to pull that trigger.
bang bang
Let's keep in mind that before the election, businesses in cities around the country boarded up. Immediately after said election, when President Trump lost, they took those boards down.
Can you remind me, again, who the insurrectionists are? Who, in particular, are trying to put a gun to the temple of this Great Republic? I easily forget.
"Not everything is a political calculus."
The complaint is political, the process will be political, the response will also be political.
You see it as political; others may see it as structural.
There are things you don't do.
But Cawthorne didn't do such things.
Challenging the electoral votes is allowed by law. Neither did he participate in storming the building.
Says you. And if anyone disagrees with you, you've made ready with a bunch of threats by proxy.
Always the sign of someone truly thinking about how to deal with threats to our country.
Cawthorne stormed rhe building?
Jan 6 was not as bad as the attempt to burn down the Mark O.Hatfield Courthouse in Portland.
I care about both, but care quite a bit more about
1) our national capitol
2) while a peaceful transfer of power is taking place and
3) where the perpetrators are trying to stop that
4) with means including corporal violence to our reps, who are in the building at the time.
But not about
5) where they tried to burn people alive.
They actually did burn at least one person alive.
Right, right. But the DOJ argued for a reduced sentence because the felon who burned him alive was committing arson in what he thought was a good cause.
Oh, so someone got caught and went to trial and got convicted Ibut the sentence wasn't as brutal as you wanted)?
Inapt though it may be, this may not be the parallel you want to make...
The federal guidelines called for 20 years, for an arson causing somebody's death. The DOJ literally asked for only 12 because he set fire to an occupied building in a good cause. (The judge cut it to ten, which got her talked up for the Supreme court, because that's how the left thinks.)
Forget whether accidentally killing somebody in the course of a crime known to carry that risk deserves 10 or 20 years. I don't want the DOJ thinking you should get off easy if they like the cause you were rioting in.
What is your evidence of Democratic control of the North Carolina State Board of Elections?
"The Governor appoints the members from a list of nominees submitted to the Governor by the State party chair of each of the two political parties having the highest number of registered affiliates. Not more than three members of the State Board shall be members of the same political party."
Cooper is a Democrat.
"Not more than three members of the State Board shall be members of the same political party."
This is a dodge to avoid openly admitting the members are supposed to be only of the Republican and Democratic party, but it makes it fairly easy for Democrats to game the system by appointing the full permitted number of admitted Democrats, and then some Socialists, or some Democrats who are registered Independent.
When was Madison Cawthorn convicted of insurrection?
He wasn’t, and can’t be. He can’t be because he didn’t actually invade the Capital (being legally there, as a perk of his office as a Member of Congress). He might be convicted of Incitement, if they could actually prove that Insurrection occurred, which they can’t. But his speech doesn’t come close to overcoming his 1st Amdt Free Speech rights (which greatly elevates the required level of proof that his speech actually incited Insurrection), as well as his Speech and Debate rights as a Member of Congress.
That is a narrow definition of insurrection, that I don't think tracks.
I very much doubt there is enough evidence to convict, but I don't believe insurrection requires physical trespass.
What exactly, is Cawthotn alleged to have done that is insurrection?
Cawthorn and his team were communicating with the plotters ahead of Jan. 6.
He also said: "My friends, the Democrats with all the fraud they have done in this election, the Republicans hiding and not fighting — they are trying to silence your voice,"
And he's continued to spout election fraud bullshit since then.
As I have said in these comments, I don't think the case is there come trial time. But there's a prima facie case no problem.
What exactly did he communicate with the plotters?
What "plotters? He's assuming the answer, some of the protestors did unlawful acts so the protest was unlawful from the beginning so protest planers are"plotters".
Dude who gets so indignant about "conflating" BLM protests and riots does the same here.
Pipe bombs were planted the evening before.
By whom?
Nobody arrested. It was both parties as well.
The feebs literally waited a whole year for the trail to get cold, before asking the public for help finding the guy who planted them. Which suggests to me that either they already knew, or didn't want to find out.
If I were making an argument that he was an insurrectionist, this might have a point.
But I'm talking about the operation of the law.
Something you continually have trouble distinguishing from what you wish were the case.
Whether or not this particular Congresscritter was an insurrectionist is literally a key point about the operation of this particular law.
He was communicating with the people planning Trump's protest at the other end of the Mall. Planning a political rally doesn't ordinarily make one a "plotter".
This is the way the burden shifting works, Brett.
Now he gets to rebut; if it turns out he was communicating with the many who just went there to say hoo-ray for our side, then he'll be fine.
As I have said up and down this thread *I don't think he'll be found guilty* but the facts seem to fit the law as written.
The facts don't fit any law as written. He was involved with a political rally, when a riot happened over a mile away at the same time.
Before you should have to prove you didn't participate in a crime, somebody should have to present some evidence that you did; At this point there's nothing to rebut!
You're taking him straight to a trial evaluation; the process apparently doesn't work like that.
I am literally complaining about the process, Sarcastro. I don't think it's appropriate for anything more ambiguous than age or residency, it sets the burden of proof wrong where the supposed disqualification is as vague as this.
It's actually important to define crimes narrowly, Sarcastro. We don't want their definitions to be too flexible.
He was entitled to be in the Capitol, which clearly distinguishes him from people who broke in. So you need to establish that he did something "insurrectionist" while there, and unless you can demonstrate he literally told people to break in and attack Congress, I don't see what that would be.
It is important to define crimes by their own language, not limit them arbitrarily to help out your side when they pop off.
Was Speaker Pelosi an insurrectionist when she tweeted to rioters and arsonists trying to burn down the Mark O.Hatfield Courthouse in Portland that the courthouse's security detail must be stopped?
If all Cawthorn did was tweet support, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.
What exactly do you allege him to do?
Have you read the complaint before the North Carolina State Board of Elections? It is quite detailed. https://freespeechforpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/nc-14.3-complaint-cawthorn-final-2022-01-10.pdf
"8 Planning or helping plan an insurrection or rebellion satisfies that
definition. So does planning a demonstration or march upon a government building that the planner knows is substantially likely to (and does) result in insurrection or rebellion, as it constitutes taking voluntary steps to contribute, “by personal service,” a “thing that was useful or necessary” to the insurrection or rebellion. And
knowing that insurrection or rebellion was likely makes that aid voluntary."
So, he's accused of taking part in planning Trump's demonstration at the other end of the Mall... And they're claiming an attack on the Capitol was such an obvious consequence of the demonstration that this amounts to taking part in planning an attack.
Pretty thin gruel, really.
Aside from the riots that happened in 2020, how can anyone have an idea that a peaceful demonstration would intensify into an insurrection?
As I have said, I think Cawthorn wins on the merits. He is just too rank a coward to address the merits under oath.
Why in God's name would anybody subject themselves to a proceeding where they labored under a presumption of guilt, if they could escape it?
No matter how obviously innocent you are, it's legal Russian roulette.
Brett, as I have explained to you repeatedly, there is no presumption. No evidence exists at this point. The matter is still at the pleading stage, and pleadings are not evidence.
You remind me of Mark Twain's observation. It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.
Look, you can explain this as many times as you want, and when the damned law is available to us, and says there IS a presumption, you're wasting your time.
The law says that once somebody makes the accusation, it's on the candidate to disprove it. That's a "presumption".
Was the Easter Bunny an insurrectionist when it conspired with the Wizard of Oz to blow up the Washington Monument?
So you're taking the position that Nancy Pelosi never made those tweets, then? Can you prove she never made those tweets?
If not, then she's an insurrectionist!
Weirdly no one is charged with insurrection
What word or group of words of the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3 requires a conviction?
How else dies one determine if one had engaged in insurrection or rebellion?
Uh, by taking evidence in an adversarial hearing?
Like a criminal trial?
That would do it, but that's not the only way. From recollection, there is plenty of precedent from the reconstruction era of disqualification without any kind of criminal conviction.
Not required. Do you even know what administrative law entails?
So there is suck a thing as administrative insurrection?
Don't be silly.
Administrative law does npt deal with crimes.
No it doesn't. So why are you kvetching about a criminal conviction or the absence thereof? I am genuinely puzzled.
Is there such a thing as an administrative insurrection?
Don't act stupid. There can be evidence of insurrection offered in an administrative hearing.
Currently there is a lot of lib chatter that the Democratic party is pro-democracy and GOP is anti-democracy.
Nothing says democracy like having an appointed board controlled by one party kick the other's party candidate off a ballot using a clause not used for 140+ years. Very pro-democracy.
That's an interesting way to frame it. Especially since you skipped over the *reason* behind the exclusion, which is manifestly anti-democracy.
Not gonna happen anyhow, but this is weak.
Ok, then you won't mind the inevitable GOP blowback.
They're never worried about blowback. I'm not sure why, but it never seems to enter their calculations.
I don't generally think responding the threats is a good idea.
Its not a threat, its reality.
Political stunts get political responses in return.
Its not a threat, its reality.
Which is what every thug says when they're making a threat.
Whatever.
We got Cawthorne!!!!!!
I don't think they got him.
But I also think your threats (I'm sorry 'reality') are despicable.
LOL
My thunderbolts will fill the sky!
I bet you think January 6th wasn't a form of blowback, after a couple years of Democrats rioting, too.
It was perfectly predictable that if the left kept rioting and getting away with it, eventually the right would think two could play at that game.
Now you guys are working yourselves up to start disqualifying Republican candidates, and potentially, Republican winners. And I bet you think that won't come back to bite you, either.
I think I prefer to hold people responsible for their actions, not assume everything derives from the actions of Democrats.
In that case, we should be seeing Democrats held accountable for their rioting and insurrection any day now.
But I won't hold my breath.
Disputing an election is free speech. Full stop. Trespassing, vandalism' looting and violence are illegal.
Gosh Josh that first sentence was a little bit leading wasn't it. Cawthorn never said he supported committing assault did he?
Like for example our present VP who supported arsonists and looters.
I think a fair interpretation of the 14th Amendment’s Insurrection Clause is that it imposes an additional constitutional qualification for being a candidate for Congress.
However, because it is in the nature of a crime rather than a mere status like age or residency, I think Due Process requires that it be adjudicated by a court rather than in a mere administrative proceeding.
That said, if he is entitled to challenge any election commission finding in court, and if he is also entitled to a de novo review based on a full trial with the burden of proof squarely on the disqualifers (rather a mere deferential appelate-type review), he is probably getting all the process he is due.
Whichever party loses before the hearing panel is entitled to de novo review before the full State Election Board. The burden of proof there remains on the candidate. From there, appeal is as of right to the North Carolina Court of Appeals. I haven't researched he applicable standard of review in that court, but appellate courts typically review questions of law de novo.
And I think Professor Adler’s argument is weak here. Congress’ power to rehabilitate insurrectionists is analogous to the President’s power to pardon people for crimes. The
President’s power to pardon in no way implies a corresponding power to declare someone a criminal, let alone se power,
Comgress’ impeachment power does give it a power to declare federal officials criminals, and a court of impeachment is competent to find an insurrection offense.
But there’s simply no basis or warrant to infer that Congress has any power at all to declare anyone other than a federal official an insurrectionist, or can do so by any means other than conviction in an impeachment trial by the Senate. The Bill of Attainder Clause flatly prohibits it.
The Framers knew how to assign a power to convict and dosable separate from a power to rehabilotate. And when they wanted to do that, they said so. They didn’t here. In the absence of express constitutional assignment, responsibility for adjudicating insurrection offences, like all crimes, falls to the courts.
As I've said, the problem here is that the amendment was drafted with an utterly clear cut and unambiguous case in mind, so they didn't consider it necessary to establish any standard of proof or procedural safeguards. And it was meant to be applied by the victorious side in a civil war, against the conquered foe.
It's very badly drafted for application NOT by the victorious side immediately after a civil war.
I've made this point before: Democrats want to apply post-Civil war precedents in their fight with Republicans, but without the tedious "having just won a civil war" step to render them feasible. Republicans aren't a beaten down and conquered opposition under military occupation, there's no reason to expect them to submit to such treatment.
"there's no reason to expect them to submit to such treatment."
Stop making threats. Sarcasto will be cross.
Democrats want to apply post-Civil war precedents
It's a law, actually.
You're a pretty shitty formalist/textualist, when you need to be.
The precedent, in this case, since you didn't figure it out, is not needing to adjudicate guilt, just proceeding on an "everybody knows" basis.
Yes, it's the law that insurrectionists who were under oath at the time become disqualified. It's the practice that you don't bother having any particular process for determining who's an 'insurrectionist'.
And my point is that they got away with that shoddy practice right after the Civil war for two reasons, neither of which is applicable now:
1) It was bloody obvious who had been an insurrectionist.
2) The people who were being disqualified were in no position to resist it.
Today, it is totally disputed who is an 'insurrectionist', and the people you're going after aren't some beaten down foe who knows that they're beaten, and have no choice but to submit.
Today, you'd better have some process everybody, not just Democrats, think is legitimate, before you start disqualifying people. Or it's going to get really ugly.
We are not talking about convicting someone of a crime of insurrection, which of course would have to be done by an Article III court. We are talking about disqualifying someone from office because of participation in insurrection. I don't see why you need the impeachment procedure for that. The result of such an exercise would not deprive the person of anything other than the ability to serve as a Congressman or Senator.
Someone mentioned above a person running for Congress who is too young to do so. That's not a crime nor an impeachable offense, but I think that Congress would have the power to exclude that person.
Who judges whether or not someone participated in an insurrection?
That is one of the two key questions, which I noted above. I don't have a ready answer. But the fact that insurrection is a crime does not answer it, since we are not talking about sending someone to jail, we are talking about disqualifying them from office.
Oh so just preventing them from running from office is OK then?
That's what the 14th Amendment says. The issues are, as I indicated, what is an insurrection, and who determines that Candidate X engaged in one. But it is clear that through some method, a person can be disqualified from office for that reason.
Just as a 24 year old is disqualified from running for Congress.
None of the answers provided here are compelling, but the best one seems to be that each House of Congress is the judge of the qualifications of its members.
So the House coulld disqualify someone who said,"There needs to be unrest in the streets" on the basus that saying such a thing is insurrection or rebellion?
The House could disqualify somebody for thinking Big Macs are better than Whoppers. They're the sole judge of their members' qualifications, there's nobody to appeal to.
first there would have to be a insurrection
Who judges? In this case initially the hearing panel, based on admissible evidence or the absence thereof. The losing party before the hearing panel has a right to de novo appeal before the full NCSBE. The loser there has an appeal as of right to the North Carolina Court of Appeals. From there, discretionary review by the Supreme Court of North Carolina is a possibility. As to any federal issue that has been properly preserved, SCOTUS review by writ of certiorari is potentially available.
You don't love Cawthorn? Hell, I voted for him. Who would you expect me to vote for, the fu***** democrat?
Can we disqualify any candidate that supports BLM? A blatantly racist, violent, Marxist organization, that took dozens of lives, billions in damages.
This is just ridiculous
Assuming the question is not rhetorical, where is the insurrection or rebellion in supporting BLM?
CHAZ/CHOP and the other similar regions where they declared themselves independent of state and Federal laws and used violence to enforce their will don't count?
Even ignoring the violent attacks on government buildings and attempted (or successful) murder of government employees.
BLM is not an organization in the first place; it's a movement.
Riiight. It's a movement. A movement with looted bank accounts. Why did a movement have bank accounts in the first place? Isn't that kind of an "organization" thing?
An individual corporate entity had a bank account. That individual corporate entity is not "BLM"; it's an individual entity. It did things; those things can't be attributed to BLM. BLM advocates things; those things can't be attributed to that entity.
See how it works?
Is it confusing for you because the entity happens to have BLM in its name?
See, there was the civil rights movement, and there were SNCC, and SCLC, and CORE, and the NAACP. If CORE did something wrong, that does not mean that one can say that "civil rights" did something wrong. If the civil rights movement advocated for certain things, that does not mean that CORE necessarily did.
The January 6th rioters weren't an organization, either -- they were just a movement.
This post really should have included the text of the 14th Amendment, Section 3. Poster and commenters have gotten things wrong about that. Sad.
Oh, here it is (from congress.gov): No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Yea again, there was no insurrection. Maybe if they wore pink hats you'd think differently
Off topic, but the judge in Sarah Palin’s libel suit against the New York Times has announced that he will move to dismiss the lawsuit after the jury reaches its verdict for insufficient evidence of actual malice. https://www.nationalreview.com/news/judge-tosses-palin-libel-suit-against-new-york-times/
I suppose that would be the same Marc Elias that bribed the company contracted to maintain White House servers during the Trump administration to hack into those servers and steal confidential information that was then passed to Hillary Clinton?
As apparently I'm not the first to note, elements of the duopoly are suddenly becoming concerned about ballot access.
Once this lovers' spat is resolved, they'll team up again to restrict ballot access for independent and third-party candidates.
(they = party leaders)