The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Some Realism About Realism
[UPDATE: Comments were initially disabled by a tech glitch, but they're working now.]
A commenter on the thread on "The Right to Defy Criminal Demands: Expensive Duties to Protect" wrote:
If an expensive "duty" to warn can't be imposed on crime victims it might interfere with the opportunity for lawyers to cash in at further expense to crime victims. I don't think too many lawyers will want to sign on to something that limits the profession's ability to win payouts from victims.
As a general matter, I appreciate the political economy / realism / cynicism point that people—including government officials and public commentators—often tend to act in their own self-interest (deliberately or subconsciously), or the interest of their professional or social tribe, even when they're talking about the public interest. That is human nature.
But it also seems to be human nature to overgeneralize about such matters, even in ways that seem inconsistent with the facts; and I think the comment I quoted above illustrates that. After all, quite a few lawyers work for business defendants (whether in-house or as outside counsel), and those businesses are indeed interested in limiting tort liability. Unsurprisingly, lots of people, including lawyers, have backed tort reform proposals, just as lots opposed them. And if we look at the overall pattern of tort law, made largely by lawyers who became judges (part of my audience for this article), we see quite a few rules limiting liability as well as rules enabling liability.
Lawyers just aren't a homogeneous group, and they don't have homogeneous incentives. We should be realistic about such incentives, by all means—but really realistic.
(This post's title is of course shamelessly borrowed from Karl Llewellyn, who used it in a somewhat different context.)
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Whatever vested interest an individual lawyer may or may not have in tort reform, I think it's a fair statement that the entire system, taken as a whole, benefits the legal profession far more than it benefits anyone else. I have sometimes told clients that nobody wins lawsuits except lawyers. And a big chunk of that is requirements that could probably be dispensed with that drive up costs.
Someone could, if they wanted to, design a system that would be simple, cost-effective and get the right answer at least as often as the current system does. It's really not necessary to examine the underside of every rock with a microscope as part of the discovery process, for example. Those snobs at the Supreme Court really don't need briefs that cost $20,000 to produce. In a probate case, should it really be necessary to spend a thousand bucks trying to locate some second cousin that nobody's been in touch with for twenty years, and has no real claim anyway. Someone said that hell will be distinguished by its strict adherence to due process. They were right.
Isn't some of that gilding (SCOTUS brief costs) a filter to reduce the amount of spurious noise submitted? A bit of skin in the game? Though to be sure, the lawyers are usually extracting the flesh, not putting theirs on the line ...
It means that a middle class person with a fantastic case isn't going to file in the Supreme Court. If you are below the poverty line you can get an exemption, and if you're rich, you can afford 20k for a brief. It's the middle class that doesn't have the resources for justice.
If you get a case up to SCOTUS, funding is not going to be an issue.
The bigger issue if really the cost of litigating both the trial court and the intermediate appellate courts. $20k is chump change for a case that has gone to a decision (even summary judgment) and through an appeal already.
The Supreme Court's printing rules make a lot of sense, but I don't think it creates a real access to justice issue. (Nor do the similarly silly circuit rules requiring the submission of printed copies of briefs that have been filed electronically.) Any middle class person with a cert-worthy case is going to be inundated with offers of free high-quality representation; if the ethics rules ever allow it, I fully expect to see lawyers paying clients for the privilege of representation.
Indeed. When non-elite lawyers find themselves with cases before the Supreme Court, the elite lawyers always try to poach those cases.
Amen. For instance, is there actually any reason uncontested divorces without any complications couldn't be handled by paralegals, or simply be executed with simple paperwork, instead of requiring both sides to give lawyers thousands of dollars for copying boilerplate with the names and addresses swapped? My ex hurt me financially, sure, but it was my own lawyer who put me in the poor house.
And "billable hours" are a running joke for a reason. Nobody really thinks lawyers take 15 minutes to photocopy a piece of paper.
Having everybody in control of how an institution works sharing a general common interest is a pretty heavy thumb on the scale for how it will operate.
Why, for instance, not institute a system of, not loser pays, but loser's lawyer pays? Aren't the legal professionals in the room supposed to be the ones who know if a case is frivolous, not the clients?
That wouldn't work, Brett.
There is a massive difference between a case that is frivolous, and a case that you lose. Or, as I like to put it, "I'm never wrong, but sometimes the judge and jury screw up." 🙂
I do think that the standard for awarding attorney's fees for truly frivolous cases is usually too high. Regardless of what the standard says (either in federal or state courts), it is still very unusual for sanctions to be awarded for frivolous filings.
...unfortunately.
Sure, there's a difference between a case that is frivolous, and one that you lose, and the cases at the margin shouldn't be loser's lawyer pays.
But how many cases are really at the margin? As you say, a lot more cases should be sanctioned as frivolous, and it should the the lawyer, not the client, who gets sanctioned.
The majority of cases are, IMO, at the margin- depending on how you define margin.
Two people have a disagreement over an ambiguity in a contract. Both of them have a good-faith belief that they are correct, and you end up in litigation. The answer may not be clear, or may not be 100% clear. Or maybe they agree on the contract and language, but disagree about the remedy. I could keep going ...
Or, to use another common example, the case might be fact-intensive, and while the law is clear, you have people on either side with different stories. (And yes, every client lies to their attorney.)
Even things that might seem frivolous, may not be. For example, what if a cause of action is beyond the statute of limitations, but there is a credible argument for equitable tolling?
I could keep going, but you should get the idea. Unfortunately, that is why it can be so frustrating when you have a truly frivolous case, and you have procedurally dotted the i's and crossed the t's with your sanctions motion, and the Court still doesn't award sanctions. Which I have seen repeatedly.
it is still very unusual for sanctions to be awarded for frivolous filings.
You know, we tend to think of frivolity as being solely the province of plaintiffs. But there are frivolous defendants also, and I imagine that getting legal fees awarded to the plaintiff in those cases is even more unusual.
Yes, I speak from experience.
One thing that ... might be helpful ... is to have a universal (both federal and state) Offer of Judgment with teeth.
In other words, if a party proposes a settlement, and you reject it, and then you don't recover X% of that settlement amount, you pay attorney's fees. Even if you win.
And it's bilateral as well.
This would require attorneys and their clients to do a cost-benefit analysis much earlier in the litigation, and might lead to more realistic litigation approaches on both sides.
I have often thought of this in regards to prosecutorial overcharging meant to encourage innocent defendants to settle. Require the prosecutor to bring all charges to trial, and if the jury acquits more than convicts, the defendant not only goes free, but is awarded costs, from the prosecutor's budget, of the difference.
Of course, anything like this would have consequences, such as juries convicting the superfluous charges just to make sure the overcharges don't let the defendant go free.
In the criminal context, for the risk to be truly balanced, if the defendant is acquitted, the prosecutor does the time the defendant would have done if convicted.
Maybe then prosecutors with think twice about deliberately over charging.
Maybe then prosecutors with think twice about deliberately over charging.
Problem is, prosecutors would think twice about deliberately charging *at all*. (If you could even get anyone to be a prosecutor under that system, that is.)
Loki, they have that exact system in California.
But that presumes you really know how to value a case. But I think valuing cases can be really hard. I think it is legitimate to not value a case and let the jury decide.
How much is the pain and suffering of your personal injury worth? If you are wrong that the defendant isn't offering you too little, should you actually end up paying the party that injured you?
Overall, I am being dramatic. The provision doesn't seem to have much impact in practice.
The one way to really reduce litigation is to cap damages so much that no attorney would bother bringing the case. That, of course, means that plaintiffs go without remedies for legitimate injuries. There is no such thing as a perfect system that doesn't sometimes throw out the baby with the bath water.
I think that offer of judgment statutes with teeth are still relatively novel (at least in the practice of law) and those jurisdictions that have them haven't really gotten to the point of utilizing them properly.
The point being that you can offer a reasonable amount to settle the case early (either side), and if you did make a reasonable compromise attempt then you're going to get the attorney's fees on the backend.
Importantly, it also tends to clarify minds later in terms of settlement as one side realizes that maybe they should settle instead of taking additional risk.
If you're referring to CCP 998 offers in California, they shift costs, but not legal fees. So, California does not, to the best of my knowledge, have a general fee-shifting statute as Loki describes.
Good point. But among the fees that are shifted are expert witness fees, which can get really high.
I don't think I agree with fee shifting for consumer law matters. Saying that there should be more "risk" associated with getting judicial decisions is going to tend to make the legal system the play thing of the rich.
Or another way of putting it is if Hulk Hogan's defamation claim against Gawker is worthy of going to trial over (even though it isn't exactly something I would consider very important), then I don't think we want to discourage other people from getting judicial resolutions for their claims.
Maybe what we should be doing is 1) expanding the judicial system and 2) trying to make the judicial system more efficient rather than trying to incentivize people to not use it.
There is a similar problem in criminal law with plea bargaining. It seems like the punishment for having the government prove their case might be higher than the punishment for the actual crime. The idea that we need more incentives for people to not use the judicial system seems to imply that there is nothing we can do to make the judicial system more efficient.
I think the obvious response some people might have is that perhaps the problem is using the tort system as an ad hoc consumer protection system; something it is not designed for, and does not do particularly well.
In addition, Offer of Judgment statutes with teeth do not reduce access to justice at all; they simply tend to put pressure on parties to realistically evaluate their claims earlier and see if they are worth pursuing in terms of cost/effectiveness.
Alaska allows attorney's fees to the prevailing party, and has an offer of judgment rule that seems to work more or less the way you're proposing (i.e. if the party that rejects the settlement doesn't obtain a more favorable result, they're on the hook for fees and costs). From my very quick research, it looks like the general fee provision has been around since statehood and the offer of judgment rule since 1997: it would be interesting to examine whether they have had any effect on how civil cases proceed there.
I'm not sure that would help in the situation I am thinking of.
Fundamentally, there was never actually a trial, or even settlement negotiations.
I was entitled to receive a significant number of shares in a particular company. This was absolutely clear-cut. (Yeah, yeah, but trust me. I'll go into more detail if you like.)
The wouldn't give them to me, even after requests from my lawyer, so we filed suit and they immediately caved, except for having me sign a useless NDA. (I'd already discussed the case with anyone I was likely to discuss it with.)
The legal fees were significant.
In my state, an uncontested divorce without children is accomplished by filing a fairly straightforward form listing the agreed division of marital property. It's regularly completed by the parties, and if you were to hire a lawyer to do it I can't imagine it costing you more than about $1000, if you had a particularly knotty set of assets.
I don't doubt that it works differently elsewhere, but what about your situation did require a lawyer?
Some states (including my home state of Utah) are instituting reforms spearheaded by lawyers/judges that do exactly what you are proposing: i.e, allow paralegal practitioners to handle uncomplicated legal matters that previously had to be handled by a full-fledged attorney.
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2020/08/20/molly-davis-how-utah-just/
Also, literally nobody hates billable hours more than me, but I also haven't heard of a workable alternative that can be broadly applied.
Nobody really thinks lawyers take 15 minutes to photocopy a piece of paper.
Not all lawyers, but I can think of one or two who could easily take 15 minutes trying to photocopy a piece of paper. And fail.
A looooooong time ago, in a galaxy far away, a gentleman I worked for once put two pieces of paper in his out-tray, neatly clipped together by a paper clip, together with a third, smaller, slip of paper, on which he had written instructions for his secretary, also neatly. The instructions read : "Tracy, please staple."
The gentleman was of German ancestry, if that helps.
Maybe someone had stolen his red stapler and he hadn't got a replacement yet 🙂
I think that’s why we see so much propaganda against arbitration. It saves money and some people like to be paid for 4 years of work involving courts instead of 6 months of work on an arbitration.
Arbitration has its own set of problems. For one thing, the parties split (at least initially) the arbitrator's fee, which means I'm going to start the case off telling the client he needs to write a $3,000 check. For another thing, there is no appeal at all, and arbitrators do make mistakes. I am opposed to mandatory arbitration in consumer cases, but could probably be talked into it if there were a few more protections than what there are.
The alternative costs more and has more problems. There’s no need to find perfect answers. Replacing bad answers with less bad ones can be a big improvement — if improvement is genuinely desired.
So your solution to overpaying lawyers is to overpay retired judges to a shitty job that they won't be liable for?
If it’s between bad and bad but more expensive, then one of them is less expensive.
Someone could, if they wanted to, design a system that would be simple, cost-effective and get the right answer at least as often as the current system does.
Please proceed. There are people who have incentives to do that now, and they haven't gotten anywhere.
They haven't gotten anywhere because a good lawyer can always come up with a reason why any reform violates due process. It's the same reason death penalty appeals take twenty years.
That may explain why some proposed reform "hasn't gotten anywhere," but it doesn't explain why no one has designed something.
Oh, I have all kinds of ideas for how to design a system that is simple, cost-effective and gets the answer right at least as often as the current system. I also know that actually enacting it would be a total political non-starter, so there's really no reason for me to spend the time to put it on paper. It's the same reason Chuck Schumer has never bothered to introduce a constitutional amendment to repeal the electoral college, even though I'm quite certain he would like to.
Charles Clark wasn't deterred.
I like it when all these Lefty lawyers and politicians cry about how evil and racist the Justice System is that they created and operate.
And finger point at people who have been dead for generations as the culprit.
That guy is a legitimate troll that posts the same type rant no matter the subject, but I appreciate the reasoned engagement you made in this article. It's good to occasionally engage with trolls in a sincere manner for the benefit of bystanders. Especially in the occasions where they have put forth a point that others might agree with.
I have a particular way of putting things. Go ahead and argue that I’m wrong if you want.
If lawyers or others don’t like pointed observations about the problems they create and perpetuate through intentional actions they might consider ceasing to create and perpetuating problems.
Go to California and observe the Prop 65 Warnings everywhere if you want a specific example. They protect no one, cost the general public, and only benefit attorneys. And it’s all legal and "ethical" because ethics gets defined legalistically, without regard to the idea that the general public shouldn’t be stolen from, even in small amounts, even when the rules tell you you can go ahead.
You know what. I legitimately thought he was quoting DavidBeher. I'll admit I was wrong and read over both posts too fast.
Ok. But personalities are really beside the point.
Prop 65 wasn't voted in by attorneys so go figure that one out
As if any law were voted on only by attorneys…
Good post.
I think we are also overlooking a big factor- there is only so much that can be done by attorneys and by the judicial system to bring costs down; more could be done, but opinions would be split (talk to an attorney that defends businesses and a PI attorney and you'll get markedly different opinions).
A lot of the changes have to be made by legislatures- either the state, or the Federal government.
And good luck getting Congress to work on doing basic things, like amending provisions of the FLSA or 1983 when they can't even be trusted to fund the government in a timely fashion.
Some of government maybe shouldn't exist, and "starving the beast" is the only way to go about it.
Except that "starving the beast" is a philosophy regarding governance, in the same way that "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today," is a good way to diet.
"Deficits don't matter" and all that. If you are allowing a party to reap the gains of decreased taxes and no change (or increases) in spending, with some reckoning down the road, you're not starving the beast at all. Simply making worse errors.
Let’s see what happens. Money usually wins these things because money has something to offer everyone and getting it right only helps the side that is right.
Even defense lawyers for corporate victims of crimes are only valuable if you need them. Eliminate the opportunity to gain from victims' misfortune and you also eliminate the need to pay attorneys to defend.
Class action reform would help a lot. People would all have to understand that they might get cheated for $3 on something every once in a while, but everything else they buy would be a tiny bit cheaper (and/or the people who actually produce things would get more of the rewards for it instead of complainers-for-profit). It’s a reform that might actually happen — because only a very few have a significant monetary incentive and class actions can’t really be hidden from the public.
So how do you recommend that victims recover their losses caused by the criminal injury? And you believe that the lawyers who assist those individuals should not be compensated at all for their work? It's unclear to me what you are proposing.
Eugene V is proposing it. A recognized right to defy criminal demands. That might mean that bystanders who become crime victims couldn’t collect damages from a main crime victim for "failure to warn".
How does everything work out great for everyone in that situation? It doesn’t. Crime victims remain crime victims.
How would attorneys get paid? They wouldn’t. There would be no cause of action for "failure to warn" bystanders when one might become a crime victim. So no attorneys get hired to sue the crime victim and no one gets paid. And my comment was that people like you would rather be paid instead of recognizing the main victim’s right to defy criminals.
"People like you" haha okay, chief, take it easy. First, I wholly agree with Volokh on this issue. Second, it doesn't mean that there is no cause of action because incidental victims would still have a cause of action against the primary perpetrator.
Eugene V is proposing it.
I was momentarily confused by this.
I think it's a bad idea to refer to someone by their first name and the initial of their last name when that initial is also a Roman numeral. For a second I thought you were talking about the ruler of an obscure Eastern European country.
Well, I guess L,C,D, and M are OK, but I, V, and X are shaky.
Compliments to Prof. Volokh. This is the first post with any reference to lawyer rent seeking.
The defense bar owes its job to the plaintiff bar. Defense lawyers will never attack plaintiff lawyers, even when professional duty requires doing so. They will never attack a judge, since the judge keeps frivolous cases going and is the source of their income.
Rent seeking should be criminalized. Immune judges should get the lash for ripping off the public on a repeated basis.
"Defense lawyers will never attack plaintiff lawyers, even when professional duty requires doing so."
1. Very, laughably false. Opposing counsel attack each other constantly.
2. So constantly, in fact, that I think the bigger problem is that lawyers need to increase their cordiality and recognize that there is no need to get personal when the other person is zealously advocating for their client within ethical guidelines. Which, contrary to belief, is true most of the time.
3. But seriously, defense and plaintiffs attorneys are dicks to each other.
In fairness, that's because most plaintiff's attorneys are dicks. 😉
Hahaha as someone who does primarily defense work, I'm inclined to agree that attorneys who do almost entirely plaintiffs' work can be real tough to work with. Although my general life/legal/political philosophy would lead you to believe I am much more pro-plaintiff, it is proving difficult to carry that attitude into the professional environment.
You would never sue a plaintiff lawyer, nor even report one to the Disciplinary Counsel, a formal professional responsibility. You would never attack a judge. They are the source of your employment.
If their misconduct is deterred, you lose your job.
If I firmly believed that either a plaintiff's attorney or a judge was guilty of serious ethical breaches, then I most certainly would report as much. It is apparent that you likely believe such breaches to be much more commonplace than I do.
And by no means are plaintiffs' attorneys or judges the source of my work. If a plaintiff's attorney hates me with all of his soul, but a person he sues chooses me to defend the case, there is nothing the plaintiff's attorney can do about that. There are basically zero professional consequences for getting plaintiffs' attorneys to hate you (assuming you don't have career aspirations that require broad support across the bar, like seeking a judgeship).
In fairness, getting on a judge's bad side is much more likely to actually have professional consequences. But they still aren't "the source of my work," and it makes no sense to say that they are. The only source of my work is my clients who choose me/my firm to represent them. And although it is plausible that my being hated by a bunch of judges could influence that choice, I know a LOT of very successful attorneys who are...less than beloved within the judiciary.
I do not mean to be condescending, however, your client would not need you were he not arrested, sued, or divorcing. All those are from another lawyer. The opposing lawyer who hates you is still your best friend in that he gave you your job.
Most cases have no merit. How many of those have you reported to the Disciplinary Counsel? Don't say, you attack each other in any substantive way. You attack each other by yelling for show only. You do not want plaintiff lawyers hurt or deterred.
Then that scumbag DC. He never sanctions any but 4 rules. Drunk. Rude to judge. Comingling of funds (not stealing, just put in wrong account). And some other worthless trivial rule violation. The real rules are never enforced.
Most cases you filed have no merit. That's not true for actual lawyers.
We should define legal realism.
Here, it seems to indicate that everyone in the legal arena exists to maximize their own profit.
I've also heard it to mean that judges always rule purely on ideology, with the legal reasoning all being rationalization.
I made both maximalist positions, because that's how I've seen them argued. I think both have a grain of truth to them, but are vastly overapplied. As noted, incentives matter, but humans are well known for ignoring simple incentives for irrational reasons.
Makes me think of how when I read bios up till about WWI this whole idea of honor, which seems antiquated to me, is something America's leaders (and other people as well) clearly took seriously and which acted as a strong internal control at least some of the time.
The reference to Llewellyn caused me to recall a quotable (one which was obviously at least once forgotten by its author):
"I cannot but believe that if the training of lawyers led them habitually to consider more definitely and explicitly the social advantage on which the rule they lay down must be justified, they sometimes would hesitate where now they are confident, and see that really they were taking sides upon debatable and often burning questions." [Holmes, Jr., Oliver Wendell. The Path of the Law. 10 Harv. L. Rev. 457 (1897).]
Anyone who has used lawyers to examine a contract will have had this experience:
Your lawyer proposes changes. The other side proposes other changes. And they want to argue and get paid to argue. And you have to say "no, the arguing costs a lot more than mitigating or simply choosing to live with the risk of going ahead on the existing terms".
If financial planners choose a particular stock for you because the planner gets paid by the seller or because they get a commission from that stock but not from another one, it’s called a violation of a duty to the client.
Financial planners have it right. A professional ideal to help instead of burden (and/or use) people — why not have one?
Yup. Where I work the "legal dispute" ended up being between regular employees and our own lawyers - what were we allowed to sign without consulting them?
At one point back when software came in box bought at the store, they did not want us to break the seals on the flaps. They wanted to negotiate the words printed on the box with Microsoft, IBM, etc.
Anyone who has been a lawyer asked to resolve a dispute over a contract will have had this experience:
The people who drafted the contract decided that it was too expensive to pay lawyers to draft the contract. It's unclear what's supposed to happen and what each party's rights and responsibilities are. And it's a hundred times more expensive to fix the problem than it would have been if they hadn't been cheap and shortsighted up front.
So only big companies with the funds to have lawyers on salary can afford to be particular about contracts. Everyone else either loses out on every contract or loses out when there’s a dispute.
Some of these are more convincing than others.
"After all, quite a few lawyers work for business defendants (whether in-house or as outside counsel), and those businesses are indeed interested in limiting tort liability.
The corporate lawyers' business is protecting their employers from liability in world of abundant liability, the same way a bodyguard protects her client in a world of abundant crime. They have a strong incentive to be effective in their job, but not necessarily to see that abundance go away.
Unsurprisingly, lots of people, including lawyers, have backed tort reform proposals, just as lots opposed them.
Fair enough.
And if we look at the overall pattern of tort law, made largely by lawyers who became judges (part of my audience for this article), we see quite a few rules limiting liability as well as rules enabling liability."
The cynic would point out that judges aren't paid by the case and their positions (especially at the level where rules get established) don't get quickly eliminated if need reduces. A hardcore cynic would say their choice is between a heavy caseload or more time at the country club, for the same pay.
Of course to be fair, similar arguments could be made about doctors and illness, or firemen and fires. Most doctors and firemen aren't that venal but we've all read about some that are.
My understanding is that judges are backlogged.
Doctors had to create an publicize a sacred Hippocratic oath to get patients. People were afraid and many decided to forgo treatment and the oath was created to bind doctors to an ideal.
You can choose not to go to the doctor so doctors have Hippocratic oath. You can choose not to use a financial planner so financial planners have fiduciary duty. Because of government and because the rules are so legalistic and the penalties for failing to follow the rules are so harsh, you can’t really choose not to hire an attorney in some situations.
Luke 11:46
Should've left the comments disabled. These comments are terrible.
Generalizing, grouping, and stereotyping seem to be pretty popular right now, relating to various races, political groups, religions, inhabitants of particular areas, etc.
Seems to me it’s a lazy person’s way to come to decisions about folks without having to actually interact with them as individuals, or be exposed to things that might disturb their biases.
Everything about this blog is disaffected.
The modern American mainstream thanks you for your continuing compliance with its preferences.
You have no idea what the American mainstream is. You just assume that you embody it.
Here's some realism:
One of Biden's Affirmative Action Queens gave a BLM murderer 120 months in coordination with the Democrat DOJ.
"You are more than the person that destroyed that business by fire," Wright told Lee in court on January 14. "You are more than the person who set that fire that killed a man." - AA Queen Wilhelmina Wright
Meanwhile staying behind the velvet ropes and snapping selfies on J6 gets you one year in a Democrat political prison, torture, and maximum jail sentences led by the Democrat DOJ and Democrat judges.