The Volokh Conspiracy
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Sex Testing in Elite Sport
It's still all about testosterone.
This series was originally written and posted in March 2019, right after intersex athlete and Rio Gold Medalist Caster Semenya's hearing at the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). Since then, CAS ruled against Semenya and in favor of the IAAF's sex-linked eligibility rule for the female category and the decision was upheld by the Swiss Federal Tribunal. Semenya is appealing those losses to the European Court of Human Rights.
Rather than translate the IAAF's win into broader international sports policy, the IOC dragged its feet, the 2020 Tokyo Games were postponed because of Covid, and in the interim the IOC was persuaded to abandon its support for a testosterone-based eligibility standard for the female category. The new nonbinding IOC framework continues to center "fairness" and "safety"—presumably for the female field although drafters went of their way to avoid sex talk—while strongly advocating for as much "inclusion" as possible within evidence-based bounds. In an apparent nod to the IAAF—now World Athletics—the IOC recognized that testosterone-based rules could still pass muster where the evidence supports them, although those federations that continue to use them should update their details.
That this would be true for FINA, the NCAA, and swimming is clear from the Lia Thomas case. Thomas, who says she's been on testosterone suppression for about two and a half years, is undoubtedly overperforming and, in doing so, destroying the assumption embedded in the existing rule that in all sports and events, one year of testosterone suppression is sufficient to mitigate male sex-linked performance advantages.
[* * *]
If we're going to define the women's category in elite sport on the basis of sex, we have to be prepared to sort athletes in and out on those grounds. The Olympic Movement has a long and complicated history with this work, which has involved continually updating the approach to atypical cases so that the eligibility rule remains consistent with sport's core commitments and its evolving values. The current iteration, which rests exclusively on testosterone (T) levels, is illustrative. It represents a renewed commitment to a women's category based in female sex-linked traits and, within that framework, a new commitment to a pathway into the category for male-bodied athletes who identify as women.
Here are the specifics:
The IOC's Transgender guidelines require transgender women and girls who want to compete in the women's category to drop their T levels to below 10 nmol/l for at least a year before their first competition. (See my post on Tuesday for details about the male and the female T ranges.) It is expected that the required T levels will be revised to below 5 nmol/l.
The IAAF has taken the lead developing the eligibility regulation for 46 XY males with differences of sex development (DSDs). Athletes with DSDs are often described as "intersex" but for sport's purposes, the only relevant conditions are those affecting biological males, i.e., athletes with testes, male T levels, and functional androgen receptors. The IOC is waiting for the outcome of the Court of Arbitration for Sport's decision in the case Caster Semenya has brought challenging the regulation to align its rule with the IAAF's.
The IAAF's eligibility rule requires 46 XY males with relevant DSDs who identify or are legally identified as female to drop their T levels below 5 nmol/l for at least 6 months before entering women's competition. In other words, as I explained in the NYT last year, the IAAF's rule "limit[s] entry into women's events to athletes who have testosterone levels that are capable of being produced solely by ovaries."
Both rules permit male-bodied athletes who identify as women to compete in the women's category—they are no longer sex tested and then excluded because they are male—but they cannot enter as superwomen. Here are some useful additional facts:
5 nmol/l represents a generous reading of the outer boundary of the female range, as it captures outlier results from 46 XX females with PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome). The normal female range is generally described as no higher than 3 nmol/l.
The time frames in the two rules are based on evidence about how long it takes for the body to wind down the physiological advantages that account for important aspects of the performance gap between male and female athletes. For a summary of these advantages, see my post on Tuesday.
The rules are also designed to address concerns about prior iterations, including the overinclusion of 46 XY males with complete androgen insensitivity (CAIS) when eligibility was established via chromosome analysis; and unnecessary intrusiveness when eligibility was established via external examination and then via the medical standard of care / differential diagnostic for DSD.
In Sex in Sport, I argued that the eligibility rule for both transgender women and males with DSD should require all athletes competing in the women's category to have T levels in the female range. And—consistent with Martina Navratilova's position—I argued that the category should "not be open to intersex and trans athletes who had testes and testosterone in the male range through puberty, since the point of the women's category in elite sport is to provide a space free of competition from athletes with male bodies." Male puberty builds the male body in the respects that matter for sport, including the development of the secondary sex characteristics responsible for the performance gap. Winding down the physiological advantages of male T levels post puberty significantly reduces the male advantage, but it cannot erase it entirely—particularly as to its structural aspects.
Nonetheless, I agree with the IAAF and the IOC that because they are committed both to protecting the category for female-bodied athletes and to including post-pubertal male-bodied athletes who identify as women, using T levels to do this work is the best, i.e., the most accurate and least intrusive, approach. In the language of anti-discrimination law, the policy goals are important, and the means chosen to accomplish them are narrowly tailored and proportional. I testified to this effect in the Semenya case at CAS.
The rules are, of course, subject to criticism. This includes the critique Navratilova and I have made that I've just described and that's further developed in my last two posts. And it includes Semenya's and Rachel McKinnon's critique (summarized in yesterday's post) that gender of rearing and/or identity should be determinative, not biology. Finally, it includes finer points about over- and under-inclusion, and about intrusiveness and proportionality, that I don't have the space to develop further here, and so this list will have to do:
The argument that the rule is over-inclusive is that the governing bodies should but cannot (or do not try to) prove that the performance of a particular male-bodied athlete is due to their male T levels, as opposed to some other endogenous or exogenous factor(s). Generally, this argument is made with respect to male-bodied athletes who are about the same as or only slightly better than the females in the field, e.g., all of the boys and men surrounding Allyson Felix in the 400 meters figure I provided in Tuesday's post. As the detailed public analyses of Semenya's performances demonstrate, this work is not impossible, but I'll leave you to ponder the administrative burdens of such a case-by-case charge. And the categorical problem that is permitting non-elite males to compete without condition for the highest prizes in women's sport.
Arguments that the rules are under-inclusive include concerns that:
- The 10 nmol/l threshold for transgender women doesn't limit entry into the women's category only to women with T levels in the female range.
- The 6 months period for at least some categories of DSD athletes is too short.
- The IAAF's pending DSD regulation only applies to certain "restricted events"—the long sprints and middle distances—when it should apply to all events affected by the performance gap.
Arguments that the rules are intrusive and disproportionate include:
- Even if confidentiality is maintained, the rules can have the incidental effect of revealing private facts about the athlete's sex or sex traits, or triggering suspicion about those traits. This can be especially damaging when the athlete comes from a traditional society.
- The rules require athletes to alter their endocrine profiles for purposes of sport when this is not necessarily consistent with their financial, psychological, or physical best interests.
- Consent to treatment in these circumstances is not truly voluntary, which is to say it's given under a form of duress, because of the athletes' desire to compete in the women's category.
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Wouldn't direct genetic testing be faster and not require a timeline?
Yes. However then transgender athletes could never compete in womens sports.
If T level differences starting at puberty are a problem, I'm not sure how many trans women exist who could fairly compete in women's sports. For fairness, you'd be limiting it to people who started manipulating their hormonal balance before puberty.
And that runs into a dirty little secret, which is that most of the vocal trans activism is being done by trans women, like Veronica Ivy, who developed gender dysphoria late and transitioned thereafter. Those women spent longer being raised and socialized as male, as well as developing male muscle mass, etc. (And feminist theory would predict that they would be more likely to try to dominate rhetorical spaces, because of all that male socialization. This is one of the points the TERF's make.)
Basically, if you limited trans women in women's sports to trans women who transitioned pre-puberty, you would be drawing only from the HSTS subtype of trans women, who tend to be less athletic, more feminine, more able to pass, less interested in stereotypically "male" pursuits, etc. You'd be passing up the late-onset, gynephilic trans women (the AGP subtype), which produces the bulk of trans women athletes. And they will complain.
This issue, at bottom, is about the terms and conditions under which AGP trans women (who develop gender dysphoria in adolescence or later and transition late) get to compete in elite women's sports, as well as the issue of certain intersex athletes.
Do most of the people with gender dysphoria before puberty take puberty blockers? I would think they would have to given the legitimate controversy about physically transitioning (through either sex reassignment surgery or hormonal drugs). If not, then even they would transition after puberty.
Puberty blockers have become a big issue because of the Lisa Littman study and the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria controversy, but as far as I can tell only a subset of trans people are taking them. And on the trans women side (which is what we care about here), it's only going to be androphilic HSTS trans girls who are going to become dysphoric early enough to take them. That's not where the trans women athlete population is coming from.
Most people with "gender dysphoria before puberty" resolve it on going through puberty. If they really had it in the first place and it wasn't a bit of Munchhausen by proxy on the part of trendy parents.
Squirreloid : For fairness, you'd be limiting it to people who started manipulating their hormonal balance before puberty.
And yet, if you peruse Prof Coleman's 16 Dec post, and the graphs therein, there is already a male performance advantage pre-puberty. So from age 9.5 years to 17 years the male performnce advantage increases markedly, but not from zero.
Swimming : 1% => 11%
Running : 3% => 10%
Jumping : 6% => 18%
Although testosterone does its most eye opening work during puberty, it is starts its labors in utero.
Not even necessarily testosterone. Remember, men and women are genetically different, it's dubious that all those different genes would require a sex hormone to trigger.
Well, probably the best test in CAIS individuals - though I'm not sure how the docs test for the 100% completeness of the C.
CAIS individuals are on average bigger than "normal" females, this paper suggests about one standard deviation bigger :
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014468400007191
"The present findings suggest the presence of genes on the Y chromosome with a general size-increasing effect"
It should be noted that swimming, running and jumping are primarily lower body exercises, while the greatest male advantage is in upper body strength and power.
This highlights the difficulty in a one size fits all rule. Different sports requiring different attributes have different male / female differences. Explosive power things like punching or baseball pitching have a huge male advantage, long distance running less so.
Right. And a few sports- sled dog racing, auto racing, etc.- can be completely integrated.
Shooting
"Nonetheless, I agree with the IAAF and the IOC that because they are committed both to protecting the category for female-bodied athletes and to including post-pubertal male-bodied athletes who identify as women, using T levels to do this work is the best, i.e., the most accurate and least intrusive, approach."
It's the most accurate approach once you've ruled out being accurate, essentially. Once you decide you're going to include post-pubertal male-bodied athletes, you've already effectively decided that you're NOT going to protect the category for female-bodied athletes.
To put it bluntly, it's the best approach to preserving women's sports once you've ruled out actually preserving women's sports.
Obviously. but that would make too much sense.
It's nice that you just elided qualifications on the front ("including post-pubertal male-bodied athletes who identify as women") and backside ("least intrusive") of the statement.
Those terms are literally in my quote, I don't see why I had to repeat them.
"Identifying" as a woman has no relevance here, it means nothing more than that the guy wants to compete against women.
If I say 'if you want to have X and Y then you should Z' it's an odd criticism to respond 'well, your Z isn't very X at all' and just elide the Y concerns.
""Identifying" as a woman has no relevance here"
No wonder you elided the qualifications then. It has this relevance: 1. the person identifies as a woman so they naturally think the woman's category might be the appropriate one and 2. the sports body wants to be inclusive of such people.
I elided nothing, it was a full quote.
What the person "identifies as" has no relevance at all, when you can objectively determine what they are. They're "women's sports", not "identifies-as-women's sports".
They're for people who ARE women, not people who feel like saying they're women.
You elided in your response. Again, if I say 'if you want to maximize X and Y then Z is your answer' and you respond 'well Z isn't great on X' you've elided Y.
"when you can objectively determine what they are"
Well, you can't really (as the Senema example demonstrates), even using your truncated idea of 'objectively determine what they are.'
Identity matters very much in the Caster Semenya case and other intersex athletes. These are people who grew up as girls, competed with other girls, developed their talents in girls and women's sports, and just want to compete in the category they always competed in. In many cases, if they came from developing countries, they literally had no idea they were intersex until late in their teenage years or into adulthood. They have a very compelling case based on identity. That is to be balanced against the competition, issue, of course, but it is a real claim.
With respect to trans women athletes, it seems to me that identity is less important. What happens with a trans woman is that for one of (what we think are) two reasons, she develops gender dysphoria, and then transitions as a treatment for that gender dysphoria. (To be clear, that's the strongest claim for inclusion. There are now people transitioning into girl/womanhood who never experienced gender dysphoria, but they have the weakest possible claims to compete in women's sports.) So she's basically receiving a medical treatment that includes a sex change. Well, there's already all sorts of medical treatments that can make you ineligible for sports. For instance, athletes have been banned from competition for cold medications and prescription medications. The basic notion is that if there were a therapeutic drug to treat your condition but which had a side effect of making you run the 100 meters in 9.60 seconds, it wouldn't be fair to the other runners to let you run while taking it, even though it's important to your health.
So that leaves the inclusion point, which I do think is serious, and especially serious in non-elite competitions. For instance, on a middle school playground, we shouldn't really care at all if a natal male who transitions to be a trans girl joins the girl's softball team. As you go up the ladder, though, and the results are more important, you have to balance inclusion against the integrity of the competition- if LeBron James transitioned, she shouldn't go directly into the WNBA.
Where you draw the line between those two extremes is the issue here.
on a middle school playground, we shouldn't really care at all if a natal male who transitions to be a trans girl joins the girl's softball team
Up to a point, Lord Copper. Among boys even informal sports can be quite competitive, and if a 16 year old boy decided to come and play with 13 year olds, and happened to be the best player by far, because he was bigger and faster and stronger, some of the 13 year olds would be a bit upset. Indeed it would not be a surprise if they simply stopped playing until the 16 year old had cleared off.
It's not a law, as different age groups do play together sometimes - but it's more usually a 13 year old playing with 16 year olds to make up the numbers.
I can't say whether girls are as competitive as boys, because an opinion on that might get me arrested, but I don't think we can necessarily assume that all girls everywhere are totally uninterested in whether they are a top player in the game or a nobody, or in whether they win or lose.
Among boys even informal sports can be quite competitive
I don't really care though. I played t-ball, and the adults pretended there was no score. Every player on both benches knew the score at all times though. What the competitors think and what the sanctioners think are two separate things.
There's no reason to say "we're going to treat middle school sports as if it is the Olympics". Indeed, there are good educational reasons to say "people should get to participate, and if that means you don't win, too bad, this isn't the Olympics".
I realy couldn't disagree more.
For midde school sports players. middle schools sports is the Olympics.
Indeed, there are good educational reasons to say "people should get to participate, and if that means you don't win, too bad, this isn't the Olympics"
The whole point of segregating sports by sex is to allow women and girls to play. If you make girls play against boys, they'll just stop playing.
Rather a shame that your post got bogged down in arguing with someone who's entire argument appears to be their own excitement that they can used today's Word-of-the-Day's calendar word "elided" over and over.
You original comment was spot on and I was confused by the same quote as you. He seems to detail two significant advantages throughout the beginning of his article,... post-pubertal male-bodied development and having current & near term high T levels. He then completely discounts the male-bodied athlete part, which is arguably the bigger advantage, in order to support solely the use of current and near term T levels. I was pretty much WTF?
"She", actually.
I had a similar initial reaction, but it's actually quite logical.
If you are going to let people on motorcycles compete in the 100m sprint, against people on legs, because you are absolutely committed to letting the mototcyclists in on the game, is there a way to make the competion fairer than it might otherwise be ?
Sure - you might insist on very low powered motorcycles. Or you might insist that everyone must start with both hands and both feet touching the ground, so that the motorcyclists are forced to start dismounted.
It's still a silly competition, but it could be made even sillier.
We have weight classes. Add Testosterone classes. <0.5, 0.5 <= x < 1,0, 1.0 <=x <2.5, 2.4 <= ... etc. Have is based on max last 36 months. Maybe there is a benefit, maybe there isn't, but this would create partitions that should be equitable, regardless of chromosomes (and would subsume some other controversies re: non-standard genotypes).
It would require going back a lot further than 36 months, unless you're talking teenaged competitors. Once you've been through puberty there's no going back, your body is never the same.
And it's not even clear that blocking puberty renders male and female bodies interchangeable. Though thanks to some incredibly unethical medical developments, we're going to be finding out in the coming years.
Perhaps, it may not be the promised land, but it would begin to provide a more constant playing field. We can't let perfect be the enemy of better / fairer.
And, in a separate benefit, using the max measured value would make doping more risky. Get caught, move up in class. In that sense, we'd have an open, anything goes class, and classes of competitors more closely matched. And for other disfavored drugs (EPO, growth hormone, etc.) we could assign T-handicaps to their use.
Maybe 36 months isn't enough. BUT, the penn swimmer isn't anywhere close to the MAX DOPING level for most women (mid 4s, and Lia is like 8 something, right?) and that is over 12 months (no idea what the previous 36 months, pre inhibition was). And some of the most controversial issues are like the CT track, SD high school and such, so this would reduce the cultural disputes for high school sports. Make it 72 months, and you might get through college (and a number of youth centered sports like gymnastics might be effectively covered completely).
One should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but when you're already at good, one should let the good be the enemy of substantially worse.
We were already at the appropriate policy: Men didn't get to compete in women's sports. We're currently discussing how much worse to make the policy, when the policy doesn't need to be made worse. Some changes have been made, but it's not too late to put things back and invalidate the new "records" set by men in women's sports.
So Lia isn't competing? I mean, we are already allowing men to compete in women, so the good policy isn't in effect anymore, now is it? Or the CT high school track.
Though, the irony of the best women athletes being men (men really are better at most everything than women) has a strong taste of schadenfreude.
It's nice to see the quiet parts said out loud, I guess.
They're not the quiet parts if you have no reluctance to say them out loud, Queenie.
I think only women should be allowed to compete in women's athletics. That's literally what made them "women's athletics".
This isn't some outlier opinion, it's actually majority opinion.
I was referring to this "(men really are better at most everything than women)," but yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the kind of thing you'd say out loud as well.
Well, I'm not a biology denier, if that's what you mean.
For genetic reasons, men are on average bigger, taller, stronger, faster, and have better endurance, than women. (The guest author explains this.) We also tend to die at an earlier age, which really sucks, but women don't get all exercised about that.
On average. We're talking about broad distributions which overlap, more so on some traits than others. The center of the curve for IQ isn't measurably different, the curves barely overlap for bench presses, even if a female power lifter could bench more than the average guy, there aren't a lot of them.
Again, for genetic reasons, (Two X chromosomes vs one.) men exhibit greater variability on a large range of traits than women do. There are more male geniuses than women, but also more morons. Again, women tend not to get exercised about the latter.
The result is that for almost any endeavor, the top performers will be men. Because we've got a biological advantage in some areas, and greater variability, too, so we have enormously more individuals at the upper end of the curve.
And the lower end, too, but who cares if most of the klutzes and idiots are also men? Nobody, apparently.
This biological superiority has absolutely no moral dimension, it's just biology. It doesn't mean the women don't train as hard, don't compete their hearts out, and so forth. It's not a matter of moral merit. You might as well attribute some moral significance to horses running faster than donkeys.
"The result is that for almost any endeavor, the top performers will be men."
Even arguendo your other positions, might you have a truncated view of 'endeavor's? I find that women have far better emotional and cultural intelligence than men in a wide range of areas, for example.
"You might as well attribute some moral significance to horses running faster than donkeys."
I'm glad you used that example. Most cultures have treated horses *much* better than donkeys because the horses advantages have been seen as noble while the donkeys not so much.
It's a perfect example you've slipped backwards into. People talk about racial or gender biological differences in things like intelligence and then say 'well, of course I mean nothing moral about this, why would woke snowflakes think I do?' Maybe because things like basic rights and opportunities have often been denied to people en masse based on the rationale of biological difference in those areas?
"Even arguendo your other positions, might you have a truncated view of 'endeavor's? I find that women have far better emotional and cultural intelligence than men in a wide range of areas, for example."
Identify an endeavor where emotional intelligence is the deciding factor, and, yes, maybe women will dominate it. (Or maybe not, depending on how that variability issue works out.) This would not tend to be a "sport", however.
I can't really speak to emotional and cultural intelligence, since I have Aspergers, and didn't figure out social interactions enough to even go out on a date until I was middle aged. Definitely on the left tail of the curve on that trait, and having a 3 sigma IQ wasn't much help.
"Maybe because things like basic rights and opportunities have often been denied to people en masse based on the rationale of biological difference in those areas?"
No doubt. Try getting a job in childcare as a guy, for instance.
Look, try to understand when things have changed. We used to be a somewhat patriarchal society. Used to be. Now women are the majority in college, and dominate a fair list of professions, and the professions they don't dominate maybe it's because not too many women actually want to be in those professions.
"This would not tend to be a "sport", however."
That's a fair response (though perhaps in a non-patriarchial society different things would be considered 'sports).
"We used to be a somewhat patriarchal society. Used to be."
1. Somewhat? I mean, if you were denied even a fraction of the rights women were regularly denied I imagine you'd be howling a lot about the tyranny of it all.
2. By 'used to be' is this that the law changed in the last fraction of our history? Law creates and supports social stereotypes that don't just poof away when the law goes away.
"if you were denied even a fraction of the rights women were regularly denied"
"Were" What rights are they being denied today?
I think only women should be allowed to compete in women's athletics.Although at the highest levels of competition, I agree that excluding trans women is good policy, the problem with your statement is you equated "women" with having XX chromosomes. That is, you will not call a trans woman a woman, and that denies there is any harm done by refusing to do so. Perhaps that is the quite part?
Yes, I will not call a man a woman, and it's not so much that I deny there's any potential harm in that, as that I flatly don't care if there is, because it's the truth.
"O’Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.
“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?’
“Four.”
“And if the Party says that it is not four but five – then how many?”
“Four.”
The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston’s body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O’Brien watched him, the four fingers still extended. He drew back the lever."
"Trans" is the modern left's chosen "five fingers", and you might notice that you don't have my genitals hooked up to a torture machine, nor are any caged rats in evidence.
So, why would you expect me to cheerfully echo a lie?
"why would you expect me to cheerfully echo a lie?"
If your wife says 'am I as pretty as X' and she was not would you say 'look, I can't lie, she's better looking than you?'
Do you go around seeing bleached blondes and declaring them brunettes? Refusing to put pictures up of people who got plastic surgery? Because you won't 'lie?'
As a movie I saw once said, maybe it's better to be kind than right?
It's only a lie if you beg the question that a woman is defined by her chromosomes.
Someone's biological sex is defined by their chromosomes, yes.
Is family defined by blood relation?
You are begging the question that "woman" refers to biological sex.
"If your wife says 'am I as pretty as X' and she was not would you say 'look, I can't lie, she's better looking than you?'"
Fortunately not an issue given who I married.
"You are begging the question that "woman" refers to biological sex."
No, we're refusing to cooperate with changing the official definition to the disadvantage of actual women.
Josh, as long as you allow people to redefine terms to benefit themselves and their arguments, then those people will obviously be able to win any argument because they define themselves as the winners!
When you cannot win - or even make an argument without redefining the terms to benefit yourself, you've already lost and you know it.
For the most part, referring to a trans woman as a woman harms no one. Where harm to others can occur, such as competitive athletics and locker room access are a small minority. As such, you can't justify defining women as XX based on harm.
The benefit in this case is literally what the doctor ordered.
For the purpose of sport, woman means biological woman. Why is that hard to grasp, since the underlying rationale is why "women's sports" were created in the first place.
Firstly, my main point was many argue that woman means XX in all contexts, for which I strongly disagree with. Secondly for sports, I fully agree with Dilan Esper's nuanced analysis.
Josh,
1) Learn what begging the question is.
2) Follow the science. A biological woman has two XX Chroosome, and no Ys.
3) Biology does not care what you believe.
Of course. But the question being begged is that "woman" equates to "biological woman."
It's only a lie if you beg the question that a woman is defined by her chromosomes
And you will only deny that four fingers are five, if you insist on defining five as :
X X X X X
rather than
X X X X
For the young who seek to live by truth, this will at first severely complicate life, for their tests and quizzes, too, are stuffed with lies, and so choices will have to be made. But there is no loophole left for anyone who seeks to be honest: Not even for a day, not even in the safest technical occupations can he avoid even a single one of the listed choices—to be made in favor of either truth or lies, in favor of spiritual independence or spiritual servility. And as for him who lacks the courage to defend even his own soul: Let him not brag of his progressive views, boast of his status as an academician or a recognized artist, a distinguished citizen or general. Let him say to himself plainly: I am cattle, I am a coward, I seek only warmth and to eat my fill.
You continue not to appreciate there is a reason (it's what the doctor ordered) for defining "woman" as other than XX, whereas in the finger analogy there is no reason for a different definition. I would add that what the doctor ordered (successful treatment of gender dysphoria) is itself evidence that the traditional notion of what a woman is (XX) night not be complete.
"it's what the doctor ordered"
You keep saying that. I'm not exactly sure what you think it implies. If you think it implies that doctors think everyone should act exactly as if an XY person who wants to be female ought to be treated exactly like XX people, I doubt that doctors actually think that.
If you're a doctor talking to an XY who identifies as female but hasn't had surgery/hormones[1], do you suggest a pap sear like you do with all your female patients? I doubt it, because it would be anatomically impossible. Do you skip the prostate exam and PSA test? That seems irresponsible, because this particular woman has a prostate cancer risk *remarkably* similar to the prostate cancer risk of men, whereas XX type females have zero prostate cancer risk. When you're comparing blood tests to the charts to determine heart attack risk, do you look in the column for men or women?
In the reality based world, trans people are going to have an asterisk next to their gender. It's one thing to extend the common courtesy of calling people by their preferred name and so on; that's just common decency. It's another to ignore reality altogether.
[1]or maybe if they have, depending on details I'm not familiar with.
A common treatment for gender dysphoria is living your life as the gender that matches your identity. That treatment includes being called a woman if you are a trans woman.
1. No doubt some doctors do think that is the correct treatment.
2. Nevertheless, a treatment that depends for its success on the behavior of third parties is precarious at best, doomed to failure in the middle case, and counterproductively disastrous in the worst case.
3. Even if it were true that encouraging third parties to humor your patient's belief that she is a woman (when she is not) that does not imply that the humoring can reasonably be expected to go beyond mere humoring. If your patient believes he is Napoleon, you might be able to persuade kindy folk to call him Your Majesty or Mon Empereur, but you can hardly expect the peoples of Europe to agree that he should rule them. I'll call you Miss, but you don't get to play in the girls rugby team.
4. You keep objecting when people say that a man who believes he is a woman is suffering from a delusion. But you insist that we must comply with this non delusional person's doctor's orders, I can't see how this line of argument helps persuade people of the absence of delusion.
5. I am perfectly willing to entertain your negative, non-delusional, diagnosis - that some male people suffer from an entirely genuine feeling that they are in the wrong body and that they really ought to be women. Rather than that they actually are women. But in this case, being non delusional, while they might appreciate people calling them Miss, and referring to them with female pronouns, it is very hard to see that they would think it reasonable to compete in women's sports. As Renee Richards in time concluded.
"A common treatment for gender dysphoria is living your life as the gender that matches your identity. That treatment includes being called a woman if you are a trans woman."
Sure, sure, you call your patient 'Ms.'. But do you put them on the table, swing out the stirrups, and try for a pap smear?
" you might be able to persuade kindy folk to call him Your Majesty"
There's precedent for that :-).
Of course not. I'm trying to decide if you honestly believed I was making that argument or you are a troll.
More question begging about what is a woman
It’s not question begging, it’s word usage. There are two different concepts in play here :
1. actual biological women (ie humans with ovaries)
2. actual biological men (ie humans with testes), who have a perfectly genuine (ie not made up for the crowd) feeling that they ought to be be actual biological women
English speakers for hundreds of years have referred to 1s as women, and 2s as men. You would now like the term ‘woman” to be used to describe {1s or 2s}. (In the interests of brevity, we are ignoring that part of 1. which feels it should be actually biologically male – we could run the whole analysis again with the sexes reversed to cater for them. But we won't)
Suppose the world was to comply with your wishes that the meaning of "woman” should be accepted as {1 or 2} rather than just 1. How would that make any non-delusional 2 happier ? A non-delusional 2 would know that the world is not recognizing them as a 1, but as a {1 or 2}, and the grounds for the world’s usage of “woman” was that the world had identified them as a 2.
We would arrive at just the same result, if the world kept on using “woman” to describe 1s, and invented a new word to allow us to refer to 2s. Let us say “zooby”.
Once again non delusional zoobys would know that they were being referred to, and that the world was not confusing them with 1s.
So what’s the point of trying to change the meaning of the word ‘woman” from its long understood meaning ? (And all the other words in all the other languages, alive or dead, that do the same thing ?)
The only reason that I can think of is that, for a time, those who have grown up with the idea of woman = 1, will have a natural mental trigger that will associate the word ‘woman” with 1, and so may initially register a reference to a 2 as if they were a 1 – ie the idea rests on the deliberate generation of semantic confusion.
But this cannot last, for once the idea is firmly implanted that “woman” = {1 or 2} then the world will no longer be confused. It will notice that there is a word for {1 or 2} that, in practice doesn’t refer to any usefully conjoined set of attributes in the real world, and so the world will invent a new word for 1s and a new word for 2s.
Moreover, even in the short term, those used to woman =1, who are confronted and fooled temporarily by the new {1 or2} meaning will conclude - as many already have - that they are dealing with the perpetrators of a semantic trick, and will therefore develop a sense of suspicion and hostility towards the tricksters.
Is this really the way to encourage acceptance and understanding of people suffering from gender dysphoria ?
Josh we are discussing categories in competitive sport not gender disphoria. You don't get to redefine what has been KNOWn for millennia just to fit your politics
blockquote>So what’s the point of trying to change the meaning of the word ‘woman” from its long understood meaning ?Of course you are not persuaded, but (now repeating myself) it's what the doctor ordered.
We are discussing whether we should accommodate people with gender dysphoria in sports (again, See Dilan's post for an excellent take).
Josh : it's what the doctor ordered
1. it's what some doctors order
2. the doctors in question are not knee doctors or throat doctors, they are psychologists / psychiatrists
3. who are known for having more competing opinions per person than Jewish folk
4. which opinions are in any event changed wholesale every few years
5. and who are treating, if we exclude delusion, unhappiness
6. and the solution proposed is removing the milk from the dairy instead of removing the cat
7. only there are roughly seven billion milk cartons
8. so this is a fool's errand, which as I say
9. creates nothing more than suspicion and hostility among people you want to react with acceptance and understanding
10. that really is nuts
More divisions (classes) is a needless complication.
XX = Women's, all other chromosome pattern Open to all.
T-enhancing drugs on the strictly prohibited list.
Caster can compete with the boys and wear a dress after the meet.
If the IOC was serious they would require a T level within the normal range of women, though even that does not eliminate the advantage of bone structure, heart size, mitochondrial density etc. of having gone through puberty. This is truly a case of being thrown under the bus for women. Pretty soon all the female world records will be held by men and will be forever out of reach for women.
In the previous posts the differences in performance were shown. Another not shown is grip strength which rises into the 30s then falls with age. The curves do not overlap. An average 65 year old man has greater grip strength than any woman of any age. Think about shaking hands. No woman I have ever met had me worried that they would hurt my hand shaking it (arthritis), but many men do. Many. Another example is picking up heavy things. Not many wives tell their husbands: "here let me pick up that couch for you". In basic training, every guy can pick up another guy over his shoulder if he were wounded but almost no women can do this. This has nothing to do with equality or rights and everything to do with reality.
"An average 65 year old man has greater grip strength than any woman of any age. "
I'd be interested in a citation for this. I mean, Thai weightlifter has the women's world record clean and jerk at 129 kg. You gonna tell me the average 65 year old guy has greater grip strength? That's hard to believe.
Yeah, I find is "any" pretty implausible.
I seriously sprained both wrists in college, which compromises my grip strength. My wife grew up wringing laundry dry by hand.
We've never had a competition, but I wouldn't bet too much against her if we did. The last time we moved the piano, she was holding up her end. (She weighs 80 pounds!)
I've sometimes wondered if she'd been bitten by a radioactive spider at some point.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19190602_Grip_and_Pinch_Strength_Normative_data_for_adults
Looking at the table it suggest that the average 65 year old guy has a grip strength of about 91 lbs, and that the average woman aged 20 to 50 has a grip strength of about 66 lbs, and a standard deviation of about 13 lbs. So a woman of 20-50 with a grip strength greater than the average 65 year old man would be about two SDs from the mean, so roughly one 20-50 year old woman in 40 would be stronger than the average 65 year old man.
The problem with that is defining "normal" range.
Some women (XX, no "DSD"s) do have exceedingly high testosterone due to random genetics - upwards of 100 ng/dL. That's still 1/8 the average male, but it is well outside the normal female range (which caps around 60 to 80 ng/dL depending on age and range).
There is no difficulty here - stop accepting that there is. No men in women's sport. That's all. No amount of surgery or drug treatment can turn a man into a woman, so stop pretending it can. Either protect women's sports or shut them down.
I'm breaking out a comment from above: "We can't let perfect be the enemy of better / fairer. ", while advocating for a complicated scheme of ongoing testing and classification by testosterone levels.
I think there is a fundamental complexity problem here. Let's assume those classes will deliver perfect fairness along the axis of testosterone levels, in the same way that weight classes try to do for boxing. That's a fine objective.
We all want fairness in sports, and I think what people mean by fairness is that the outcome be generally proportional to how hard the athlete works - we generally prefer a set of rules where the dedicated person who trains for hours every day beats the indolent but genetically favored competitor.
Unfortunately, this isn't a single axis problem, genetics wise. If you haven't read it, there is a book called 'The Sports Gene' by David Epstein that goes into the genetics of elite sports. In short, elite marathoners have very unusual genetics. Sprinters have another equally unusual set of genes. Basketball players are tall, swimmers have big hands and long arms, etc, etc, etc. These are all genetically determined - just not by the X or Y chromosome. It's a multi-axis problem.
And that makes flattening everyone into fair classes a practical impossibility - every sport would need an N-way classification by testosterone level, weight, height, and a myriad of other genetic factors. You'd end up with everyone getting a gold medal in a class of one.
(anecdote alert: In my high school health class we were taking pulses for whatever reason. There was one guy with a resting heartbeat in to 30's. The cross country coach asked him to try out for cross country. He said he wasn't all that interested, but made a deal - he would show up for the meets, and maybe sometimes for practice. He'd usually win the meets. Was that fair to the rest of the runners who pounded out the miles every day? No, but there is a fundamental limit on how fair you can be. After all, the middle of the pack runners like me were only able to keep up with the middle of the pack because we had better endurance genetics than most of the population.)
And that makes flattening everyone into fair classes a practical impossibility - every sport would need an N-way classification by testosterone level, weight, height, and a myriad of other genetic factors. You'd end up with everyone getting a gold medal in a class of one.
That's not the point of women's sports though. The point of women's sports is to ensure that a group of people who, as a class, have different attributes from male athletes are able to compete and win competitions.
Nobody doubts that Serena Williams has physical gifts that the average woman does not have; that's not the issue- the issue is that if we forced Serena Williams to compete against men, we'd never hear about her.
All this worry over not being inclusive enough is balderdash. If some natural woman happens to have too much T through entirely natural reasons, and is excluded from women's sports, well, too bad. There are far more natural women who are excluded for not having the right genes for good eyesight, physical dexterity, and so on. Not everyone is athletic. That's life. Don't bend the rules to hurt the vast majority to accommodate a very tiny minority's completely optional pastimes.
"All this worry over not being inclusive enough is balderdash."
Well, of course, FYIGM is kind of your political philosophy in a nutshell.
In that vein, since this is a legal blog, an interesting read is the chapter in Corey Robin's The Reactionary Mind on Scalia's dissent in the ADA pro gulf case. Robin argues that Scalia's dripping outrage is far less due to some abstract legal doctrine than it is to his being very upset that egalitarians would dare bend 'the rules' to give an unfortunate (whose plight likely simply just wasn't thought of when those rules were made) a more equal opportunity to participate. Many conservatives are at root big fans of 'natural' hierarchies, especially (or maybe just when) they find at least someone below them in them.
Ever notice how "fairness" always involves a lot of government money being spent on 'experts' and testing?
Why don't they just get rid of any sex based criteria, and just go with a restricted, and unrestricted categories that use gender neutral categories.
Unrestricted is self explanatory.
Unrestricted applies to anyone regardless of gender:
Anyone 13 or less years of age.
Over 13 must have XX, and Testosterone < X.
Any man, woman, or intersex that meets that criteria can compete in the restricted category, otherwise the unrestricted category is available.
If you're going to have testosterone testing (which seems reasonable to me btw) as the ultimate criteria why even have the unrestricted? Why not just have the usual categories with testing?
Because a real (XX) woman must prefer beating the boys.
Reading all these conservatives going on about how to protect women's sports calls to mind a group of pimps talking about how to protect monogamous marriage.
If all you're here to do is presume the bad faith of those who disagree with you, why bother?
Even though you don't agree with it, there is a principled argument being made here about "fairness". That principle is not dependent on the virtue of those making it.
It certainly seems like the pro-trans advocates are so committed to their proposition that trans-woman are woman, they are unwilling to concede any ground, even when such distinctions are specifically about physiology/biology.
There's absolutely a principled argument to make here, but as an empirical matter many of those here invoking protecting women's sports would be a month ago deriding things like Title IX in the strongest terms. It speaks to a disingenuousness in their rhetoric that is important (because there's some other motive or goal at work) to note.
"Of course there's a principled argument. The one I agree with. Definitely not the strawman that I created."
Don't expect any better from Queenie, it just isn't capable.
Lol, you goofball, I actually agree with the OP here.
But I'm also going to point out you and your ilk's obvious disingenuousness here.
"Obvious disingenuousness, as proclaimed by me, the totally neutral observer."
"If all you're here to do is presume the bad faith of those who disagree with you, why bother?"
Because that's QA's modus operandus.
The irony, she is lost on this one.
You didn't need to tell us, we know how lost you always are.
He went full Pee Wee, how cute!
Reading all these conservatives going on about how to protect women's sports calls to mind a group of pimps talking about how to protect monogamous marriage.
This is my least favorite talking point. Even in the 1970's, I suspect a lot of conservatives supported women's sports. Richard Nixon signed Title IX into law.
But now- conservative parents take their daughters to soccer and softball practice. There's just nobody out there opposing women's sports. This is the classic example of one side making a complete, false, dishonest caricature of what the other side supposedly believes.
Shift the dichotomy a bit.
Former: women : men
New: biologic women : open
in essences make women's sport that which it is, a handicap league, where contestants of lesser intrinsic ability are brought together to join in the greater good that comes from individual competition.
This is nothing new. I maintain physical competition by competing not in open running events, but in age specific categories. I will never excel or win even in this, but it is better to be in my handicap league rather than pretend to 'compete' along side people literally twice my speed.
All of the difficulty is with those of the male sex who choose to identify as female gender. Why not just let them compete with others of the male sex?
Anyone should be allowed to compete in men's sports.
And it does not matter what Josh believes. LeBron James doesn't get to play in the wNBA
By the way,
most men could not make a WNBA team even if they were allowed to try out.
That generally how it is and has been.
So natal women continue to lose and trans women get the PR benefit of being able to pretend that the competition was fair.
Permanent effect from having been a biologic male is readily demonstrable. If simple testosterone reduction is all it takes, then a male of no particular dominance transitions to female, then likewise performance should be of no particular dominance. But Thomas goes from middling male to totally crushing it female.
That's showing exactly how inherent male biologic traits cannot be erased so easily.
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