The Volokh Conspiracy
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New Article in NYUJLL: Is the President an "Officer of the United States" for Purposes of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment?
Seth Barrett Tillman and I discuss whether President Trump can be disqualified from a second term pursuant to Section 3.
Seth Barrett Tillman and I have published an article in the New York Journal of Law & Liberty, titled Is the President an "Officer of the United States" for Purposes of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment? Here, we answer an important question: can President Trump be disqualified from a second term pursuant to Section 3. This article builds on a blog post we wrote on January 20, 2020.
Here is the abstract:
Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868, in the wake of the Civil War. This provision bars certain people who "engaged in insurrection" from serving in certain federal and state positions. For a time, Section 3's meaning was a matter of substantial debate. And subsequently, during the twentieth century, this provision fell into desuetude.
Now, Section 3 occupies a critical place in constitutional discourse. On January 13, 2021, the House of Representative approved an article of impeachment against President Trump that invoked Section 3. And there is pending legislation that purports to put Section 3 into effect. Its sponsors contend that the bill could render Trump ineligible to serve a second term. Moreover, state election officials may rely on Section 3 to keep Trump off the ballot. All of these legal strategies, however, elide over a critical threshold question: Was Trump covered by Section 3?
The structure of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is a bit complicated. But for our purposes, the inquiry is narrow: When Trump took his Article II presidential oath, was he "an officer of the United States"? If the answer is "yes," then he is subject to Section 3, and potentially can be disqualified from serving a second term. If the answer is "no," then he is not subject to Section 3, and cannot be disqualified from serving a second term pursuant to Section 3. In our view, there is some substantial reason to think the President is not an "officer of the United States." It follows that President Trump, who swore only one constitutional oath, does not fall within the scope of Section 3. Therefore, he cannot be disqualified pursuant to this provision.
This article will proceed in six parts. Part I will contend that the phrases "officer of the United States" and "office . . . under the United States" in Section 3 refer to different categories of positions. Part II will analyze the phrase "officer of the United States," which is used in the Constitution of 1788 and in Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. Part III will show that the meaning of the phrase "officer of the United States" did not drift from 1788 through 1868. There is substantial evidence from both eras that the President was not considered an "officer of the United States." Part IV will recount longstanding Executive Branch opinions, which affirmed that elected officials like the President are not "officers of the United States." Part V will respond to recent academic arguments suggesting that the President is an "officer of the United States" for purposes of Section 3. Finally, part VI will chart how the courts, and not Congress, will likely have the final say about whether President Trump is subject to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
If Trump runs for a second term--as looks increasingly likely--we hope our scholarship here will become useful for legal debates and election challenge.
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One thing is for certain. The side that, in all other contexts*, wants the will of the people to reigh supreme, is suddenly interested in little, unclear legal tricks to thwart 'em.
* all, n some.
"Seth Barrett Tillman and I discuss whether President Trump can be disqualified from a second term pursuant to Section 3."
I think by far the bigger issues are, who decides, and what standard of proof? We could easily see elections officials in a few states refusing to let him be on the ballot, but he's been convicted of nothing, and basically only people who opposed him already purport to think he has done anything Section 3 relevant.
It's rather transparently just an effort to rig the election outcome by keeping a particular candidate off the ballot.
You call it rigging an election, I (and post-War Germany, and Israel, and lots of other people) call it defensive democracy. A democracy does not have to tolerate people trying to use democratic tools to end democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy
Here is the official translation of s. 7A of Basic Law: The Knesset
And yet Alcee Hammaker was a congressman.
Also, if we preemptively disqualify unsavory sorts from running for office, we need to draft people to be legislators and executives.
Ah, Hastings, getting Baseball and Politics mixed up again.
When Hastings was convicted he was removed from office but not prohibited from seeking other office.
If Hastings was convicted, was Inspector Japp an accomplice?
Again, only people who opposed Trump already purport to think he's done anything Section 3 relevant. It's just groping around for an excuse to prevent democracy from working in the case of a candidate you really, really dislike.
"Defensive Democracy" is a pretty Orwellian concept, if you ask me.
This is just the ad hominem fallacy.
If the case against a defendant only persuades people already hostile to the defendant, it's a lousy case, Sarcastro. I'm not saying that Trump's foes are necessarily bad people, (Some are, some aren't, just like any group of humans.) but the belief that Trump has done anything subject to Section 3 sanctions is a product of motivated reasoning, and very obviously so.
As I pointed out below, if you had a good case for his guilt, you wouldn't be proposing Section 3 sanctions, you'd be proposing criminal prosecution.
Brett Bellmore: " ... already hostile to the defendant ..."
Can we at least agree he attempted a coup, however clumsy and witless his methods?
After all, he tried to pressure local election officials not to certify their returns, told the Georgia Secretary of State precisely how many votes to manufacture, asked the Justice Department to announce non-existent investigations into voting fraud to pressure states not to certify, pressed individual state officials to launch other "investigations", and tried to strongarm his Vice President into blocking congressional vote certification - without the slightest constitutional justification.
Meanwhile, he engaged in weeks of relentless agitprop - black-is-white lying as crude as anything from Soviet-era Tass or Pravda at their worse. He launched scores of junk lawsuits for propaganda purposes alone, though he clearly assumed some judges would rule for him from loyally alone - and raged against them when they didn't. He brought in a steady stream of freaks and crackpots into the Oval Office to brief him on options like an election redo.
But for all this bungling buffoonery, Trump's attempted coup would have generated a severe constitutional crisis except for Republican election officials and (right-wing) judges who put duty before partisanship. If only a handful of people had failed that ethical test, the election would have still been plunged into chaos.
Those very same officials have been targeted for revenge by Trump's GOP. State voter harassment bills have stripped away their power to transfer election control to more docile partisan entities. If these laws had been in effect then, we probably would have seen several states refuse to certify their returns. If Trump runs & loses in '24, we probably still will. Trump may destroy U.S. democracy yet. (But I'm certain Brett will find some way to cheer)
GRB? No, we can't agree.
After all, Trump genuinely believed that he won and that the only reason that he lost was due to fraud. There is at least definitely suspicious activity going on and deliberate attempts by the Democrats to avoid any question of the result (their insistence on the 2000 election even now not withstanding).
His "coup" included stirring a protest. Standard operating procedure. He never encouraged anyone to use violence. Despite having full access to the military, he never issued a single order or request to move out (indeed, it was Pelosi who asked the military for aid against the president, completely outside her authority). He never called for anyone to shoot anyone.
And political ramifications of political activities is what people are SUPPOSED to do. Legislatures see what they think are problems (or what they think the public wants) and address them. That's hardly scary anti-democracy stuff.
Indeed, this interpretation of yours is to demand people rubber-stamp any election no matter what their suspicions.
I have a serious question here. Do you even know what a coup is? Because you are using the word in a way that is incongruent with the actual definition.
Ben of Houston : "... Trump genuinely believed that he won ..."
Oh for God's sake, stop being such a malleable dupe! Trump began readying his supporters with this "election fraud" bullshit months before the election. At eight months, he told them, "if I lose it's fraud." At six months, he told them, "if I lose it's fraud." At three months, he told them, "if I lose it's fraud." On the eve of the election he told them, "if I lose it's fraud."
And then he lost and claimed to have discovered (gasp) "fraud".
To me, that sounds like a conman prepping his marks, not someone who genuinely believed anything. Below is a link to a transcript of Trump's call to the Georgia Secretary of State. You'll find DJT tossing out random conspiracy theories with all the sincere conviction of a monkey throwing feces against the wall. Trump never gave the slightest damn whether any of this garbage was true - or even remotely close to being true. All he cared about was using power, pressure, and propaganda lies to overturn the election results.
And, yes, the word "coup" is often used to describe just such anti-democratic practices.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-transcript-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/2768e0cc-4ddd-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html
No, GRB. A coup is when the military attempts to overthrow the government by force. Any usage of the word otherwise is hyperbole or rhetoric intended to dismiss opposition by calling them extremists.
Just like you are acting in shock and horror when I don't really believe that you mean it.
Really ?!?
Trump tries to overturn an election he lost and what's the best you come up with? Some pedantic & petulant whining over broad usage of the word "coup" !!!
Also, Trump's attempt to sabotage a presidential election struck at the very core of our democracy. He demands a state official manufacture 11,779 new votes, and you respond with a shrug - fully showing you're only a hollow shell, ethics-wise. That you assume the indifference of others just illustrates how deep the problem goes.
Tried to overturn an election... by suing in the courts?
Oh, God, NO, not obeying the law and follow the legal process for resolving disputes!
Toranth,
That's nothing more than a strawman fallacy, and you, I, and everyone else who reads your statement knows it.
Nobody associates the filing of lawsuits with Trump's attempted stealing of the election. It is the other behaviors mentioned which demonstrates that he was fully willing to pursue unlawful methods by which to remain in power.
Don't be an idiot and wave your hand dismissively at those other actions. We're all extremely aware of how you'd feel about it if it was the 'wrong' person doing those things.
A coup doesn't have to be by the military. They're often done by the military because it's the only entity that has any form of legitimacy.
No, they're done by the military because a "coup" literally means violently taking over the government, "coup" is French for "blow" or "strike".
If it isn't violent, it isn't a "coup".
"Can we at least agree he attempted a coup, however clumsy and witless his methods? "
No, we can't.
Look, I think he genuinely believed he was cheated. Partly that's a product of some seriously dodgy things that did happen, Democrats using Covid as an excuse to violate election laws, sometimes with the backing of the courts, but the courts don't write the election laws. Largely it's a product of taking too seriously a bunch of suck-up advisors who were telling him what he wanted to hear, and not wanting to believe he could actually have been beaten by a senile hack.
He continued his challenges to the election outcome far too long, beyond the point where it was reasonable to pursue them, or even reasonable to think any remedy available. He attempted to get Congress to question the slates of electors, investigate his claims of fraud before certifying the count.
But he did so by moral suasion and political pressure, not violence. A "coup" is "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government." And that never happened, was not even attempted.
In fact, the riot ended all chance he'd had of succeeding with the moral suasion, and predictably so. He'd have been remarkably stupid to have planned it, because it at once was too much to permit the political/legal campaign to continue, and far, far too little to have remotely any hope as an actual coup.
There was no coup, attempted or otherwise, and metaphorically calling his legal campaign, however ill considered, a "coup" is just an another attempt to de-legitimize him as a future candidate.
Ask yourself this, Brett: Why do you need to hold the comical position that Trump "genuinely believed" his crude lies about the election? Is there anything in this sleazy huckster's entire life that makes that tenable? Does anything before or since the election make that view remotely persuasive? Did Trump ever try to come up with a coherent & rational theory to explain his "election win"? Or was it never anything more the surface sleight-of-hand noise of a conman's hustle?
When you need something so ludicrous as Trump's sincerity to justify your views, Brett, it's a sign they don't hold up.
"Is there anything in this sleazy huckster's entire life that makes that tenable?"
Sure. He's a narcissist, and inclined to believe anything you tell him that makes him look good.
"Did Trump ever try to come up with a coherent & rational theory to explain his "election win"?"
Sure, and if you think otherwise you were never paying attention.
Trump would have claim fraud no matter what happened. He even claimed fraud in the popular vote when he won in 2016.
Brett Bellmore: "Sure, and if you think otherwise you were never paying attention"
Gee. Sorry. Apologies. I thought he just spewed-out every kind of random nonsense under the sun, up-to and including this tweet:
DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE
Why, just in the transcript I link to above, Trump cycles thru a half-dozen conspiracy theories without taking a spare breath - and certainly without pausing to outline the Grand Unified Theory of voting fraud which you discern behind his hustle. Perhaps you can outline that for me, Brett? Also, explain whether Trump "genuinely believed" he won the popular vote in '16, or "genuinely believed" the Iowa caucus loss to Cruz was also by fraud.
Look we get it: You'll do ANYTHING to avoid facing the full shame of Trump's post-election actions. In Brett-World, it's ok to call up the Georgia Secretary of State and demand he manufacture 11,779 new votes if Trump "genuinely believed" something or other. In Brett-World, that launders the criminality from the action. Therefore, Brett-World is determined to see "genuine belief" against ever single damn bit of evidence.
Don't you ever get tired of all this frantic dancing ?!?
Brett Bellmore: "... paying attention ..."
One more VERY serious question Brett: Are you paying attention? Because the only thing that prevented constitutional chaos in the last election was a small number of judges and election officials in states like Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Michigan. It's their ethical actions that allow you to blithely make all your pat little excuses today.
Faced with Trump's demands to throw the election, they refused. That made them a target in Trump's GOP, and a common feature of Republican faux-voting-reform bills transfers final control of vote count & certification to more reliably partisan actors.
If Trump runs & loses in '24 we could easily see three or four states throw a snit and refuse certification. Just like you, they'll pretend to find the "genuine belief" that justifies their position. Just like you, it will be complete B.S....
Grb, nothing prevented a constitutional crisis last year. Democrats deciding that they could violate election laws because of Covid was at least as much a constitutional crisis as some tourists taking selfies in the Capitol building.
Arguably the only thing that prevented that crisis from being more consequential was that the election probably wasn't close enough for that to have made a difference. Probably.
grb, I'm no fan of Trump or anything he did here. But I don't think it's irrational to believe what Brett believes about him. Trump has always seemed like the type to be able to want something to be true and then go on to completely believe that it is.
"Genuinely believing something" is not a reasonable defense for a crime. But I don't know that he actually committed one. If he did I'd be happy to see him in prison.
To be clear, I in no way buy into the notion that the election was rigged and that Trump was cheated, but let's say just for arguments sake that some kind of fraud like he suggests is plausible. For our purposes, let's say a sitting Democratic President and all the people he trusts believe conservatives rigged the election. Now this far more reasonable and polite President would certainly go about things differently than Trump did. But he'd probably want his supporters to protest on his behalf and make their voices heard. He'd probably want them to help put pressure on Congress not to ratify the election results until whatever investigative demands he had were met.
Maybe that would be bad for the country, and better that he allow the possibility of a fraudulent election, as unlikely as it may be, to succeed than to upend the nation in an unprecedented way. Some people say that Gore believed he beat Bush in 2000, and could have kept fighting the legal battle, but after a certain point let it go for the good of the country. I don't know what his motivations actually were, but either way I'm sure he's at the very least a more honorable human being than Trump.
But if we concede, as difficult as it may be, that Trump did believe what he said then he wasn't attempting anything like a coup or a subversion of democracy. He was just wrong, and foolish and narcissistic, and perhaps proved that he lacks the rationality you might want in a President, which are all great reasons not to vote for him.
The upshot, at least this time around, is that the system worked. There were enough checks and balances in place to prevent an accusation lacking sufficient credible evidence to upend democracy.
But what I'm getting from those who want to see Trump barred from running again is that you want to punish him for being wrong about the accusation, and for testing the system to the limit of his power to do so. We can all guess about his authenticity in his beliefs, but unless we can prove intentional deceit, it's much like punishing an accuser in a rape case if it turns out the man on trial is exonerated. If the accuser intentionally accused an innocent person, then she should be punished. If not, then happily the system did its job in the case.
Or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I wouldn't cry or anything if Trump couldn't run again.
Because his assumed belief is based on a delusion, which in turn is based almost exclusively on him being a man-baby who can't accept defeat, I disagree.
Pressuring the Vice President to let holy hell break loose by not certifying the result is enough to disqualify him from office. Ditto for his pressure on state officials and the Justice Department. He went well beyond "testing the system."
Still not good enough for you? How about stirring up the January 6 riot and doing nothing for hours while the riot proceeded.
Josh,
I agree that all the things you list are bad, and certainly reasons not to vote for him.
If you don't think under any circumstances the Vice President should do what Trump wanted him to do then take that power away from the Vice President. If you think there are circumstances that warrant the VP having that power, then it's the President's prerogative to advise him to do so when he thinks it's one of those times. Fortunately the VP disagreed with Trump and didn't exercise that power. Again, Trump's bad assessment of the situation is a reflection on his judgement, and a great reason not to vote for him. But not a crime.
As far as not making a public statement earlier during the riot, I agree that it was horrible judgement and he deserves all the political fallout that came with it. But I doubt that people engaging in the riot would have heard it at the time, or heeded his request if they did. And if he had issued the statement earlier, would it have been anything more than political theater in your eyes? Would it in any way alter your current perception of his role in this? Failing to make a statement in a timely fashion is another mark on his judgment and competency, but it isn't evidence that he orchestrated an insurrection. And if the riot actually was a diabolical plan to overturn the election, what were the steps between inception and profit? The unruly mob would impale Mike Pence with a flagpole and force congress to not certify the votes at threat of more murder? Then what happens after the cops arrive and put down the riot? We just have to make Trump President because... well, he exploited a loophole in the system and there's nothing we can do about it?
I think you give him too much credit. He's many bad things, but an evil mastermind he's probably not.
If he did attempt to orchestrate an impossibly stupid version of an insurrection then it would be awesome if anyone could prove it. In which case he should not only be barred from elected office but barred behind actual bars. That would be fine by me.
The power was already taken away from him by statute.
I didn't argue Trump committed a crime. The Senate should have convicted him and barred him from running again.
Nor do I argue he is an evil mastermind. To the contrary he is a simple-minded man-baby who can't accept defeat.
Okay, we agree about his character. And maybe his actions were bad enough to meet whatever the bar is to be ousted by the Senate, and therefore be barred from running again. But that ship has sailed.
I'm just saying that I don't think there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he's an insurrectionist, which I believe should be the standard at this point. I don't think a majority in congress should be able to unilaterally decree who's an insurrectionist and bar them from running for office. That's a dangerous power for the majority party to have.
Trump doesn't push his election-conspiracy theories because he believes them, he does it because he believes truth doesn't matter. All that counts is what he can con his audience into with repetition and demagoguery.
We agree Congress does not have the power to exclude him under Section 3. However I would hope we could agree there are no maybes and the Senate should have convicted him.
Attempted a coup? You are delusional. The TDS is strong with you. If you cannot see how partisan that question is, how incredibly partisanly naive, you are a classic TDS victim.
Just because the GOP has partisanized factual questions doesn't mean the facts go away.
If the case against a defendant only persuades people already hostile to the defendant, it's a lousy case, Sarcastro
This is still fallacious. You engage with no argument, other than to insist that they are all bad because they gotta convince you and you're not convinced.
That kind of broad-spectrum dismissal is a clue you're not convincible. So is continuing to ad hom...basically everyone who makes an argument you aren't convinced by.
Do you agree with Blackman's argument here? Do you have a substantive argument of your own?
Sarcastro believes that if you put a member of the Bloods on trial, and only the jurors who are Crips vote to convict, that the prosecutor has demonstrated an iron clad case.
Just like the fact that all the Bloods on the jury voted to acquit demonstrates how brilliant the defense was.
The measure of a good argument is that it changes minds, and if your case against Trump only seems persuasive to people who already were hostile to Trump, it's not persuasive at all, because you don't need a persuasive argument to not change anybody's mind.
I've seen one case after another made against Trump, and the thing that they all have in common is that they rely on the listener already being hostile to Trump, and applying a presumption of guilt to at worst ambiguous evidence.
In this case the evidence that Trump organized an insurrection isn't just ambiguous, it's totally absent.
Brett, you've spoken absolute truth.
And any invocation of Section 3 against a person that has not been convicted of a crime that specifically includes violation of the oath office, is illegitimate and would be good cause for a real coup.
No, I think it was also reasonable in the context of the Civil war, where you had people who could be objectively demonstrated to have served as officers in a hostile military.
But lacking that today, yes, a conviction in a criminal court would be needed.
This is all just, rather transparently, (Since they're not trying him in that criminal court!) a pretext to deny him ballot access in 2024.
I concur heartily!
Now let's also get to work those who:
1. Use the power of government investigation against political opponents.
2. Violate the attorney-client privilege in pursuit of same.
3. Facetiously request documents under Congress' power to create laws, but in fact to leak and embarrass opponents.
As usual, my disclaimer I am not defending Trump, but the process.
And a new refrain: I am not sure the Jan 6. stuff was the biggest threat to democracy the past 4 years. That these concerns are brushed aside with facetious statements of cover stories for request reasons, or "Congress gets to do whatever it wants because impeachment."
The purpose of the 4th and similar is not really to protect yokels. It is to stop those in power from using the investigative power of government deliberately against political enemies, outside the normal course of potential criminal activity (all are equal before the law).
And it seems we are failing big time, on the exact primary reason these amendments exist.
Many of those things may well be unlawful, but not everything that is unlawful is anti-democratic, particularly when the putative culprits stand ready to accept the verdict of the courts about their actions. For example, the scope of Congress's subpoena power has been extensively litigated in recent years.
Inb4 but there is a loophole as it is impeachement and not criminal prosecution!
How soon you forget Clinton and "the dress", which started as "legitimate" investigations into some land deal. Legitimate or not (I would love 100x more investigations into all politicians as corruption is rampant as trillions are slung for infinitesimal fractions of a penny on the dollar) the motivation was "Get him!"
And nothing has changed.
Some of my very first comments on this subject as investigations ramped up was that the Republicans brought this on themselves, with Clinton and his impeachment.
Nobody learns.
The only thing we learned was the wisdom of the Founding Fathers in attempting (sadly apparently imperfectly) in stopping the king from using government to investigate and harm political enemies.
"How soon you forget Clinton and "the dress", which started as "legitimate" investigations into some land deal."
Whoa, that's remarkably fictional, even for Clinton defending.
Assuming, arguendo, that Section 3 applies to the President, I suspect that the Congress could not simply declare that Trump (or anyone else) is guilty of insurrection. That would clearly be a bill of attainder, which is forbidden by the Constitution. Some court, either a traditional court or the Senate sitting as a court of impeachment, must first have convicted him of insurrection, and, of course, the only "court" thus far to consider the question (the Senate), acquitted Trump.
Hang on, are you trying to declare one bit of the Constitution unconstitutional because of some other bit of the Constitution?
No, obviously not. He's saying that Congress can't simply up and vote somebody guilty of insurrection. It's a crime, they get a trial.
Where does it say that?
Hello, "bill of attainder"?
Criminality would depend on the penalty.
Are you suggesting that a congressional majority has the power to declare anyone an insurgent and bar them from elected office? Someone should tell them that. I'm sure they would have no trouble rooting out pesky insurrectionists based on their political intuition.
Maybe if the Republicans get a majority they should bar any self-proclaimed (as well as the ones who don't even have the guts to admit it) socialists from office. They obviously want to upend the American way (according to the majority of congress who get to decide these things). Slow moving, or even ineffectual, insurrectionists may be, but insurrectionists all the same. Why do we elect representatives to congress if not to be the arbiter of such things? They know em when they see em.
No, there is no conflict between the prohibition of bills of attainder and Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Section 3 says no one guilty of insurrection or rebellion may hold certain offices, but that guilt is determined by a court, not Congress.
Imagine Congress passed a law saying anyone convicted of a felony is ineligible for a government job. Could Congress then pass a law declaring, "John Doe is guilty of [X felony]", disqualifying him from government employment? No, because that would be a bill of attainder. He would have to be first convicted by a court of competent jurisdiction for the employment statute to apply to him.
Sure, but the constitution already contains such a provision. No need for Congress to enact one. Why on earth would Congress recording its view that "John Doe is guilty of insurrection or rebellion" be a bill of attainder? It's not even a bill.
It would be a bill of attainder if it were intended to have any effect. If it were just an expression of opinion, not so much.
"Why on earth would Congress recording its view that "John Doe is guilty of insurrection or rebellion" be a bill of attainder? It's not even a bill."
If it's not a bill with legal effect, it can not trigger the prohibition is 14A section 3. If it is a bill with legal effect, it is a bill of atainder.
Section 3 certainly doesn't say that second part. And the Fourteenth Amendment does contain another section that expressly allows Congress to implement its provisions.
That's a statute, though, not a constitutional amendment.
The rules of statutory construction would still apply. If you are arguing that Section 3 allows for bills of attainder in the case of insurrection or rebellion, then you are advocating an extremely radical position very few others have forwarded.
Is it your position that Congress can by majority vote declare anyone guilty of insurrection and disqualify that person from office? Would there be any limiting principle beyond the goodwill and decency of the members of Congress? Would there be any due process at all available to those named individuals? Would this determination be reviewable by anyone?
I would be very interested if Blackman were to write about this question. Certainly Section 3 was written in order to be used against former officials and former military officers who fought for the South or accepted Confederate office -- what procedure limits were used when Section 3 was used then? Or did Section 3 never have to be invoked because it deterred those ex-rebels from seeking office again?
One more for the "Interesting Question I'm Not Interested in Hearing Blackman Write About" pile.
Except that there is no definition of insurrection that includes the support of the January 6th Riot and does not include the 2020 riots unless it is an ad-hoc just-so definition.
After all, Harris encouraged and openly incited people to burn down public buildings, which were consistently reported on this very site by Rommellmann. Even knowing that government buildings were being attacked and after people died, Democratic politicians supported and encouraged the riots. To compare, Trump almost immediately said "Go Home" to his supporters when they got out of control.
Treason has a very explicit definition that can only be determined with a criminal conviction. Anything less is just a fancy pre-screening that the government does to keep out anyone that challenges the status-quo
"Except that there is no definition of insurrection that includes the support of the January 6th Riot and does not include the 2020 riots unless it is an ad-hoc just-so definition."
And, even if there were, I've yet to see an even remotely persuasive case that Trump DID support the riot. If they had such a case, they wouldn't be talking Section 3, they'd be prosecuting him for criminal conspiracy.
Brett Bellmore : "... remotely persuasive case that Trump DID support the riot... "
Aside from Trump cheering their mayhem, of course. For 187 minutes, he resisted entreaties to intervene from advisers, allies and even his elder daughter. Even as the violence at the Capitol intensified, even after Vice President Mike Pence, his family and hundreds of Congress members & staff hid to protect themselves, even after the first two people died and scores of others were assaulted, Trump refused to tell the people rioting in his name to withdraw.
In fact he tweeted scornful denunciations against Pence even after beings told the Vice President was under threat. His army of rioters read those tweets by megaphone as they rampaged thru the Capitol, screaming for Pence's blood.
When House Minority Leader McCarthy, placed a desperate call to the White House requesting help, DJT responded, “Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.” Only after Trump finally realized his "army" was doing him more harm than good, did he stop watching the show on TV and issued a tepid call for the rioters to stand down.
So for 3 hours, Trump was silent. When there were many conflicting reports of what was going on, and the people who he was supposed to tell to go home would not have been able to here, being busy rioting at the time.
Is that really your argument? That by not coming out against his own supporters quickly enough via a pointless, symbolic statement, he's now committing insurrection?
How the goal posts have shifted.
I believe there are also some explicit statements that were fraudulently attributed to him by the usual anonymous sources.
You 'believe' many things which are never proven true. You even 'believe' things which are subsequently proven false, yet you still preach them.
Feel free to provide any examples of your latest fact of the day.
Given that Trump has not been involved in any activity resulting in an arrest for insurrection, I would there is no issue with a second run.
Well, OK, there might be some impact on global climate warming change due to exploding heads in the party of slavery.
Regardless of what Trump was charged with by the House, the Senate ultimately acquitted him. The question of whether he is an officer for section 3 of the fourteenth amendment is not the slightest bit interesting.
It's an effort to prove that Section 3 isn't applicable to the President, because the Democrats don't plan to let that acquittal stop them.
I think it likely IS applicable, though. It hardly makes sense to exempt the highest office in the country from application of Section 3.
There is another mechanism to disqualify a person from office - Impeachment. It seems appropriate to me to have a higher standard for the highest elected office in the country.
Wait, you think it should be harder to prevent dangerous people from becoming President because it's the highest office? Are you sure you don't have that backwards?
Harder than what?
Are you saying that, because it's the highest office, basic due process doesn't apply?
I'm saying that the higher the office, the lower the standard of proof should be. (If it should vary at all.)
You're saying that, the higher the office, the easier it should be for the party in power to disqualify from holding office the other party's favorite candidate? Seriously, you're saying that?
Dog catcher? Full procedural safeguards.
President? A partisan legislative vote suffices.
That's crazy.
When will this "Officer of the United States" well run dry?
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State...
Okay, I haven't read the article yet, but does it seem plausible that this text would specifically enumerate "Senator", "Representative", and even "elector of President and Vice President", but not specifically enumerate President or Vice President if it meant to include them, placing those two offices in the "etcetera" portion?
I think the distinction driving that language is that Representatives, Senators, and Electors, are all selected at a purely state level. So, if hypothetically, one or more states had been involved in an insurrection, you might suppose that after being brought back into the union they might be tempted to select insurrectionists as Representatives, Senators, or Electors.
The president is basically the only non-appointed federal officer who isn't subject to local selection, and they'd have thought that, insurrectionist Electors having been precluded, there simply wasn't any reason to be concerned that an insurrectionist President would be selected by them.
OK, my first inclination was that Presidents would be swept in as holding offices under the United States, but the above reasoning persuades me that Presidents are actually relevantly different from all other such officers, and might reasonably be regarded as not subject to Section 3.
A conclusion nobody who thought Trump guilty of a Section 3 offense would ever arrive at, of course, so it's all beside the point.
This is not textualism. If they wanted to say state-level officers, they could have said that.
I'm trying to reason out why they listed presidential electors, but not Presidents. Does this not strike you as a significant omission?
Any office is an executive catchall to anyone reading the plain language, as you purport is the only true way to read the Constitution.
The language is hardly "plain" as centuries of good-faith disagreement demonstrate. For example, the Impeachment Clause provides that, "The President, Vice President, and all Civil Officers of the United States shall be removed..." It doesn't say, "...and all OTHER Civil Officers." One might reasonably conclude that listing the President and Vice President separately implies that they are not in the category of "Civil Officers". Of course, someone might disagree and suggest they are enumerated separately merely for emphasis, which would then raise the question of why the usage in Section 3 would be inconsistent. Maybe the answer is merely that different men writing a century apart decided on different usage with the same meaning. Or maybe not.
I believe the principle of lenity should apply, and that a statute designed to punish, when uncertain, is to be construed narrowly, not expansively.
Centuries of good-faith disagreement? How often did this come up.
The President not being an officer of the US is an argument only a lawyer could buy. IOW, not plain language.
Now, I'm all for lawyerly arguments about Constitutional interpretation (maybe the article will be convincing!)
The thing is, Brett is not.
Though noscitur's logical point below is really hard to refute. That seems an awfully large loophole for the executive-skeptical Second Founders to insert, and leaning on the actual Founders, who were if anything even *more* skeptical...that'll be quite a lift.
Perhaps the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment were wholly unconcerned with the possibility of a Confederate being elected President given the relative population of the North and South and the concomitant distribution of votes in the electoral college. The election of Confederates to the House and Senate in Southern states, on the other hand, would be a virtual certainty.
It is my opinion, which I do not claim is authoritative, that the President and Vice President ARE NOT "officers", as that term is used in the Constitution, for the same reason that Representatives and Senators are not "officers". Because they are elected. An officer is appointed and receives a commission to his office. An elected official does not; he receives his office directly by virtue of the votes of the people.
By that same logic there wouldn't be any need for the ban to cover appointed positions, which it clearly does.
Moreover, the Blackman/Tillman thesis means that the ban wouldn't attach to a treasonous president in the first place. Is it really plausible that the drafters thought it was important to ban a rebellious county dogcatcher from office, but not the president?
I think they thought there was no way, no how, that a guy who'd engaged in rebellion would end up President, unless he was manifestly the best guy for the job regardless.
Remember, the Presidency is literally the only nation-wide elected office. And they did apply the bar to the electors, so why would an EC entirely consisting of non-insurrectionists select an insurrectionist President?
That is the way I read it, expressio unius est exclusio alterius and all that
This is Reason; no need to read the article.
Yes? If they wanted to ban service as an officer of the United States (to include president and vice president) as well as in capacities that aren't officers of the United States (i.e. members of Congress or electors), this seems like a perfectly natural way to express it.
Is there any plausible reason why they wouldn't have wanted to include the presidency?
"Is there any plausible reason why they wouldn't have wanted to include the presidency?"
Perhaps they thought it unnecessary because they didn't consider it plausible that such a person would be able to win the presidential election.
Or maybe they figured that if a rebel did win a Presidential election, his side had the more persuasive argument over the previous incarnation of America.
It's only treason when you lose.
Has anyone, much less Trump, even been indicted for the crime of Insurrection? Without that it seems a bill convicting Trump of Insurrection comes awfully close to a Bill of Attainder.
A bill declaring someone guilty of a crime is not "awfully close" to a bill of attainder; it is the very definition of a bill of attainder.
That is true. On the other hand, it is not a thing that anyone is actually proposing.
Except yes, they are. This is the point of this discussion. People are trying to exclude Trump or any of his former subordinates from ballots based on challenging the 2020 election. Whether it's via legislature or administrations refusing the listing based on subjective opinion. It might be beyond the pale in the minds of rational people, but there is at least a call for it.
There's definitely a common proposal, going back at least a year on Balkinization, to use section 3 to prevent Trump from running again. But no one is suggesting that this should be done in the form of a bill.
Law professors Bruce Ackermann and Gerald Magliocca have suggested precisely that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/11/impeachment-wont-keep-trump-running-again-heres-better-way/
Democrats say GOP lawmakers implicated in Jan. 6 should be expelled
AOC as quoted in the Hill, Brett? You're more savvy than that.
Actually, you you aren't - you see true threats of liberal perfidiousness behind every tree.
Are you suggesting that the House expelling one or more of its members is also somehow a bill of attainder?
No, because they're actually given that power in the constitution, explicitly.
I'm saying they're seriously considering rigging future elections by disqualifying opposition candidates, and overriding elections by expelling winning candidates.
They're not doing it, yet, but it's entered the realm of serious discussion, which makes doing it sometime down the road more thinkable.
No, they're not. As usual you are making up what Dems are sekretly considering based on some random quotes.
You got a problem.
I don't know how prominent it is or how seriously it is being considered, but not 5 posts up, there is link to politicians about doing just that.
If we were three years ago, I might have believed that they were just blowing hot air. At this point, I do not believe we can make that assumption.
Or maybe it will be kind of a reverse SB 8. This time Democrats come up with a novel way to do something, and then when Republicans get the power (a congressional majority at some point) they're the ones who get to decide who's an insurgent and who isn't. There are some very "anti-American" opinions being expressed out there. Who's to say it isn't evidence that these would be candidates are insurrectionists? Oh yeah, we're to say. Or the we can say the opposite and it is so.
"I'm saying they're seriously considering rigging future elections by disqualifying opposition candidates, and overriding elections by expelling winning candidates."
Yeah, because looking at it from the perspective of "those who helped facilitate or foment an attack on the Capitol have no place serving within it" is too fucking logical for you to buy into.
You think it's an effort to rig elections. Rational people call it consequences.
Congress does not just get to just declare that x "helped facilitate or foment an attack on the Capitol" and have it have any legal effect including for purposes of 14A section 3.
Why not?
If no finder of fact specified, why can't it be Congress, as a body?
Because you DO have the "no bill of attainder" clause. If they'd meant the 14th amendment to repeal that, they would have done it explicitly, not by implication.
All this is, is an effort to achieve the results of impeachment without having to get a Senate conviction, nothing more.
Again, if they really thought Trump was guilty of insurrection, they could prosecute him for it. Oh, but then he might be acquitted again, and we can't have that.
...and shall commission all the officers of the United States.....
ALL the Officers.
The president cannot commission himself.
OK, minor point maybe, but
"And subsequently, during the twentieth century, this provision fell into desuetude."
Do you mention the case of Victor Berger?
"He was disqualified pursuant to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution."
And later the House changed its mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger#World_War_I
I didn't read your article, but I CTRL-Fed through it and didn't find the term "Victor Berger" or "Berger." Did I miss something?
And, anyway, clauses of the Constitution are not subject to desuetude.
The House didn't "change its mind". Berger was convicted in 1918 of violating the Espionage Act. That conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1921. Berger v. United States, 255 U.S. 22 (1921).
I didn't comment on *why* they changed their mind, simply *that* they did.
The Berger case perhaps provides valuable precedent on Section 3.
In 1918 Berger was convicted under the Espionage Act and won election to the House. In the 1919 special election to fill the vacant seat, the voters again elected Berger, and, again, the House refused to seat him. Berger ran again in 1920 and lost. In 1921, the Supreme Court threw out his conviction on the grounds that trial judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis (future first MLB commissioner) should have recused himself due to his anti-German statements. In 1922, Berger ran again and won; this time, the House seated him.
One might infer from this episode that the House felt with a conviction in place, the disqualification was mandatory, not optional. But after the conviction was thrown out, the House felt it was obliged to seat him. I.e., maybe a conviction is necessary whatever the facts might be. After all, the conviction was thrown out because of judicial bias, not because the evidence was insufficient.
Brett's "who decides" question is correct.
Basically, if an "ineligible" candidate were to score a significant election win, no court is disqualifying the candidate. Period. Nobody is that stupid.
These things are all totally political questions. It only matters what the voters think of them, not what law professors do.
I see you beat me to it.
Hypothetical. Someone who is 30 runs for president, saying, "screw the Constitiution." He wins. Do you think the Court's would do anything about it?
Absolutely not. Again, courts are not stupid.
And there's a good chance that if a court did try and do something, it would be ignored.
You are probably right. But let's say, for example, the newly elected 30-year old president signs a bill into law. In subsequent litigaiton, one of the litigants claims that the law is not valid, as it was signed by a Constitutionally unfit president. Wouldn't the court have to rule one way or the other?
Firstly, given the inconvertibly clear text, I think the courts would step in before the election in your hypothetical. Secondly, I think Brett is arguing the courts need to step in if Trump is held to be ineligible under Section 3 without due process in a criminal trial. I think Brett makes good case.
You're right. There is much "political question" to it.
Lucius Quintus Cincinattus Lamar was elected to the House from Mississippi in 1856. He resigned his seat in 1860 and became a colonel in the Confederate Army. He also served in various diplomatic posts for the Confederacy. He was not covered by President Johnson's amnesty because of his high rank, and he never applied for a special pardon.
In 1872, he again ran for the House. His Republican opponent suggested that, if Lamar won, the House might not seat him. Lamar won with about 2/3 of the vote, and the overwhelmingly Republican House seated him. In 1876, he won election to the US Senate. He would later be appointed Secretary of the Interior by President Cleveland who would go on to appoint Lamar to the Supreme Court.
Obviously, Lamar fell within the restrictions of Section 3, but no one at any stage of his progression through government office, seemed to much care. And no one ever asked a court to disqualify him, though there were certainly ample occasions to do so.
"After having his civil rights restored following the war, Lamar returned to the House in 1873..."
https://civilwar-history.fandom.com/wiki/Lucius_Quintus_Cincinnatus_Lamar_(II)
And although I could only find a snippet view, it looks like the restoration of his rights is mentioned in p. 380 of Pardon and Amnesty Under Lincoln and Johnson; The Restoration of the Confederates to Their Rights and Privileges, 1861-1898, by Jonathan Truman Dorris. (you can double-check if you have a copy).
Thank you. You are correct, and I was wrong. His rights were restored before he took his seat (though after he had been elected).
I had taken the statement that Lamar never asked for a special pardon from James B. Murphy's L.Q.C. Lamar: Pragmatic Patriot (1973). This is either incorrect, or I misconstrued its meaning.
Edward Mayes' L.Q.C. Lamar: His Life, Times, and Speeches (1896) seems to give a reliable account. During his campaign in the fall of 1872, he was naturally concerned that he might not be able to take his seat, and he courted support from high-ranking Republicans in the state, who were generally inclined to give it. He won election in November and headed to Washington in December to press his case. On December 9, the House passed a bill to restore his rights by a vote of 111-13. The Senate would pass it two days later by unanimous consent. He would take his seat when Congress opened its next session on March 4. (p. 173-175).
I admit I was confused because Congress removed the Section disabilities of most Southerners by passing general bills that applied to large categories of individuals, although there were several private bills too. One early bill granted a wide amnesty, but excepted members of the 36th and 37th Congresses, Lamar having been a member of the 36th. Of course, the fact that his rights had been restored by a private bill made that irrelevant to him.
Incidentally, I looked at both those books on archive.org.
I believe a court battle would likely be about ballot access.
Texas Governor James "Pa" Ferguson was impeached, removed, and disqualified from future office by the state legislature in 1917.
Ferguson decided to run for governor again in 1924. A voter went to court seeking an injunction to prevent his name from being placed on the ballot. Ferguson argued that he had resigned before the Senate vote and was thus ineligible to be disqualified. The Texas Supreme Court ruled against Ferguson. (Ferguson's wife would run in his stead and win the election).
Ferguson v. Maddox, 263 S.W. 888 (Tex. 1924).
Any court battle would absolutely be about ballot access, and after that, certification of electors.
^^^^ This.
If there are enough Trump supporters out there to elect him president in 2024, the country's problems go way beyond whether he was barred from running by the 14th amendment.
Maybe I missed it here, but the first basic question is, how is it to be determined that Trump, or anyone else, "engaged in insurrection?"
"We all know" is not going to cut it on a matter of such importance. Does he have to be criminally convicted of insurrection by an Article III court? Does the Senate have to try him and find him guilty and then disqualify him?
It would be the height of anti-democratic action to disqualify someone from high office willy-nilly. Unfortunately, the 14th Amendment does not answer this question.
Use the "I don't like him" clause.
A Senate trial is pretty obvious to me. Blackman's article was originally written around impeachment, he's just trying to flog it again anew as if there was some ongoing controversy.
We had a Senate trial. Two of them. They both resulted in acquittals.
No reason to suppose another would turn out any different.