The Volokh Conspiracy
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Reflections on President Biden's Supreme Court Commission
As Ilya noted, earlier this week President Biden's Commission on the Supreme Court issued its final report on various reform proposals. I was a member of that Commission, and now that a couple days have gone by, I'm finally free to talk about the matters that we considered.
So I have posted working paper up called Reflections of a Supreme Court Commissioner.
Here is an excerpt from Part I:
As I see it, there are two ways to approach Supreme Court reform. One is to look for reforms that would be good regardless of whether one agrees with the Court's current decisions. Such an approach benefits from bipartisan expertise. The other approach is to look for reforms that will make the Supreme Court's decisions better. Such an approach is unlikely to be bipartisan given polarization about legal issues, but it is not trying to be.
In my view both approaches to reform are valid. . . . But much mischief and frustration comes from confusing these two. There is no point in having a bipartisan commission of experts to consider reforms designed to influence the Court's decisions. The Court's decisions are supported by experts on one side or another. If the experts do not agree on whether the decisions are bad, there will be no common ground for reform. And activists who think the Court's decisions are a threat to freedom or democracy will not be swayed by the lack of a consensus among those who lack their commitments. In my view both methods of analysis and advocacy are valid, so long as we do not have illusions about what we are trying to do.
And on the question of whether it matters whether outcome-motivated court-packing is constitutional:
Does it matter whether there are any legal limits?
I don't know, but it might.
. . . imagine a moderate lawmaker (even a President …) who opposes court-packing as a matter of policy. He believes it would be imprudent, unwise, or at least premature. But he is receiving great pressure from those on his left to support it anyway. If his only objections are matters of policy, it is simply a political question whether to succumb to that pressure. But if he were to believe that it is unconstitutional, then his constitutional oath leaves him no choice but to do the right thing.
And here is the final part, Part VI:
I have great respect for my talented colleagues on the commission. I'm sure some of them would disagree with some of the points above, and some of them might have persuasive counterarguments that would change my mind on some points. Unfortunately, the law and structure of the commission made it very difficult for us to have the kind of deliberations and discussions that the country deserved.
The biggest problem was the Federal Advisory Committee Act, a statue I had never thought much about, which required that all of the collective deliberations of the commission be done in public. Public meetings are both cumbersome and politically fraught, so to many people the more attractive alternative is to accomplish as much as possible through working groups, one-on-one conversations, and other interactions that fall outside of the statute. By necessity, these interactions are not visible to most commissioners. That is part of what makes them lawful. Thus, the ironic effect of a statute designed to promote the transparency of the commission to outsiders was to instead dramatically reduce the transparency of the commission, even to its own members.
This was exacerbated by other factors – the size of the commission, the distribution of different views across different leadership roles, Zoom, and other operational constraints – and I fear that the result was to squander the overflowing amounts of intellectual ability and political judgment that filled the commission.
At the same time, whatever the constraints, there would have been no escaping the fact that the commission found itself operating in two different modes – an intellectual one and a more political one. Those two modes produce a natural tension. A political problem can be solved through omitting, watering down, or waffling on the controversial parts. But doing so cuts against making an intellectual contribution. And vice versa: concrete intellectual claims can be unpalatable, especially to a committee.
Perhaps under better circumstances the commission could have navigated those two modes in a way that made a real contribution. But I guess we will never know.
Download the whole thing here.
I've also recorded a podcast episode of Divided Argument with Dan Epps, who testified as a witness in front of the commission, where we go back and forth about the process and some of our proposals for reform.
It's here:
Out of Whack
We've been waiting for months to bring you this one: we can finally talk about the President's Supreme Court Commission, which just finalized its report this week. We also briefly talk about the recent argument in Dobbs and try to predict what the Court might do.
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Professor Baude, thanks for posting your thoughts and writing the paper on your personal experiences and perceptions serving on that committee. It is important for Americans to hear from all the commission members, and read the report. We should at least learn what was discussed, and understand the differing viewpoints.
The basic issue is this.
The risk inherent in any such reforms (regarding the potential to abuse the reforms) outweighs the benefit.
Venezuela should illustrate the case example of this.
I like that. "the risks outweigh the benefits"
Hard to debate that.
Considering his support is 'Venezuela is bad' I also have some trouble debating that - it's a framework of an argument, not an actual argument.
Well, that's what comes from expecting a basic degree of knowledge and comprehension from certain people. But let's spell it out for you.
"Why" exactly is Venezuela bad, in the context of judicial appointments and its current policy?
The major issue was the elimination of judicial independence, especially via Chavez's 2004 court packing bill, which increased the court size from 20 to 32, and then packed it full of Chavez loyalists. Why did they do this? Because the previous court made some decisions that went against Chavez's political desires.
The end result was the elimination of the judiciary branch as an effective independent branch of government. That of course ultimately helped allow for the solidification of power in a single group, with the opposition not allowed to do anything.
What lessons does that hold for America?
1) Judicial independence truly is critical. Actions that may potentially reduce or eliminate this should be only taken in the most extreme situations...if at all.
2) A party in power should EXPECT some Judicial decisions to go against its wishes. While other means to alleviate those decisions can be taken, arguing to arbitrarily change the composition of the judicial branch (outside of normal turnover) is extremely detrimental to the stability of the country as a whole, and should not be undertaken.
3) Even if you think "Well that couldn't happen here"...the risk that it could, even if small...is too potentially detrimental to be considered.
The fact that you are incapable of making an argument without gratuitous personal insults makes me lose interest completely in anything you have to say about anything. And anyway your point only really applies to one type of possible reform, so your general statement that for any type of reform the risks outweigh the benefits is completely unsupported. Don't bother responding, I will only see a gray box.
The fact that you are incapable of making an argument without gratuitous personal insults makes me lose interest completely in anything you have to say about anything.
Ah, this old cowardly excuse for ignoring the voluminous substantive argument that constituted nearly all of his post.
Your overly inflated sense of self-importance is a nice touch as well.
I'm not a huge fan of court packing myself, though I'm also none to thrilled with the GOP's recent behavior with nominations.
My issue is more that you can't just say 'such reforms (?) are bad because the status quo is the thin reed keeping us from becoming Venezuela.' That's not an argument, it's just putting a flashlight under your face and saying Venezuela in a creepy voice. You need more evidence than just weak institutions and this could weaken our institutions.
Because from where I sit, the institution is already weakening from the right insisting only their jurisprudence is legitimate. And then breaking any norms they need to to get that on the Court. And then declaring the jurisprudence wasn't the key, it was the outcomes.
Court packing is bade because it has no limiting principle, not because of your non-argument.
My issue is more that you can't just say 'such reforms (?) are bad because the status quo is the thin reed keeping us from becoming Venezuela.' That's not an argument
It's also not at all what he said, Captain Straw Man.
Listen... It's called giving the example of what happens.
They court packed in Venezuela... And it went to hell.
They court packed in Argentina...and it went to hell
Can you give an example of court packing for political purposes in ANY country that didn't end up in it going to hell, but actually improved matters? Any at all?
First, your initial thesis was 'such reforms.'
Second, correlation is not causation. Argentina and Venezuela are very much not the US.
Some might argue FDR's credible threat of court packing turned out quite well.
Again, court packing a bad idea. But your thesis started overbroad, and your arguments are fallacious. I even provided you with an example of a more legitimate argument! But you cannot ever admit you're wrong.
First, your initial thesis was 'such reforms.'
Like court packing.
Second, correlation is not causation.
His argument was not based on correlation.
Some might argue FDR's credible threat of court packing turned out quite well.
Threatening to pack the court and actually packing it are two very, very different things.
<But you cannot ever admit you're wrong.
I've seen him admit to being wrong. What I have not ever seen is you admitting to being a liar...which you have proven yourself to be nearly every day for several years now.
What is "like" court packing, other than court packing?
"Reforms" that undermine the independence of the judiciary branch.
For example, changing the law so that you're able to remove justices at will, and replace them with who you want. Technically, that's not court packing.
Other fun reforms like court packing...
An act which puts a "15 year" term limit for SCOTUS judges, enforced immediately.
Followed shortly thereafter by repealing the act.
"Some might argue FDR's credible threat of court packing turned out quite well."
Yeah, people who get their way, even if it's through threats, usually think things turned out well.
I mean, if you think the New Deal is unconstitutional, you do you.
But if you read AL's argument, the wisdom of the outcome isn't required. Even it's legitimacy isn't required. The fact that the US didn't come anywhere near becoming Venezuela is all that's needed.
" The fact that the US didn't come anywhere near becoming Venezuela is all that's needed."
Needed for what? Even if we buy your characterization of his argument, FDR never actually packed the court.
But unfortunately, the left has decided that the court is legitimate only if it votes the way the left wants, and that means that the court's legitimacy is already gone.
The US never actually packed the courts.
First "Such reforms" included court packing. Obviously
Second, This is causation. Packed courts cause the destruction of the judiciary as an independent branch.
Third: Argentina and Venezuela are other countries. They are examples of what happens when the court is packed. That hasn't happened in the US. Using events in other countries as examples as what may happen if the same event happens in your country is well understood.
Forth: FDR didn't pack the courts.
Fifth: The thesis isn't overbroad, and you haven't done anything to argue it's fallacious in the least.
Sixth: Once again, you're off your rocker. IT's like you when you repeatedly claimed to be able to "shit out" a 195 page research paper in just a day. And when it was pointed out that just typing that would require you to type 100 words a minute for 16 hours, you ran. You're just being fake.
Wow. Two cases!
"though I'm also none to thrilled with the GOP's recent behavior with nominations. "
I'm not thrilled with the Democratic party's recent behavior, either. Finding people to make scurrilous, unfalsifiable accusations against nominees? Having a mob break into the Senate building during nomination hearings? Mobs literally clawing at the Supreme court's doors while a Justice is sworn in?
The difference is what I'm unhappy about is something everyone acknowledges occurred.
What you're unhappy about is right-wing alternative facts.
Which of those things are you claiming didn't happen?
1) Scurrilous, unfalsifiable accusations against nominees
2) Having a mob break into the Senate building during nomination hearings
3) Mobs literally clawing at the Supreme court's doors while a Justice is sworn in
1 is only unfalsifiable because the GOP spiked any real investigation
2) is mixing up a protest with a mob
3) is the same as 2
"...is only unfalsifiable because the GOP spiked any real investigation..."
How could a "real" investigation have falsified the accusation?
"is mixing up a protest with a mob"
Your dislike of Brett's characterization doesn't make it "alternative facts"
Aren't you the guy that kept insisting, without evidence, that the Hunter laptop story was a Russian op? Talk about alternative facts!
1) is absurd to deny - do you really believe Jeff Catalan? That's amazing, because he admitted to lying. Maybe you believe the anonymous letter? Judy Munro-Leighton's accusations that got her referred to to the FBI for lying? Oh! The utterly "credible" accusations of Julie Swetnick and Avenatti?
And of course, Blasey-Ford's accusations - which were so vague and varied in time, place, and manner that they were impossible to disprove (That's what unfalsifiable means, by the way). And they were certainly made with the intent of causing scandal and damaging Kavanaugh's reputation, which makes them scurrilous, too. Even if you believe Ford, there were nine accusations presented at one point - and all but Ford recanted. 8/9ths scurrilous and false accusations promoted by Democrats isn't enough?
2 and 3 are both on camera. Trying to play word games about "mob" vs "protest" for breaking into building with the intent to prevent the hearings or swearing in from going on does not change the substance of the claim, or the facts of the events.
"Because from where I sit, the institution is already weakening from the right insisting only their jurisprudence is legitimate."
What? The right spent 50 years acknowledging the legitimacy of decisions like Roe, Lawarence, Oberfell, etc.
And now that the balance has shifted, we have folks like Nancy Gertner claiming that the court suddenly isn't legitimate, and you're claiming that he right is the one question the court's legitimacy?
The right spent 50 years acknowledging the legitimacy of decisions like Roe, Lawarence, Oberfell, etc.
Holy shit no they didn't!
Lol. Every single Republican judicial candidate who was asked acknowledged that Roe was legitimate. Roy Moore was kicked out of office for refusing to follow Oberfell.
Just more of your alternative facts, Sarcastro.
Eh, many Republican politicians certainly spent time attacking Roe over those years. The problem is Sarcastro is swiveling from the Justices on the Court to others, and not being clear about the goalposts flying down the field.
"The risk inherent in any such reforms (regarding the potential to abuse the reforms) outweighs the benefit."
Yup. If the Dems pack the court, then next time the Republicans capture all three branches they should:
1. Pass a constitutional amendment fixing the size at nine, and removing any judges passed after the expansion.
2. Expand the size of the court to 35, and put folks like Trump, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Judge Pierro on it. To encourage ratification.
Or Democrats pack the court. Then the court rules that Democrats always win the elections....
“The other approach is to look for reforms that will make the Supreme Court's decisions better. Such an approach is unlikely to be bipartisan given polarization about legal issues, but it is not trying to be.“
True, but when you form a commission to come up with “reforms” to make your side win more often, what you are really trying to do is put a bipartisan gloss on it, otherwise you’d just ask a couple of experts to come up with a plan for you. Then use your political muscle to ram it through.
I guess it’s too much to hope that a faithful adherence to originalism will lower the temperature of court debates because for the big constitutional issues it will be clear which way the court will rule just by reading the text, which admittedly isn’t always crystal clear, but at least they can show their work.
Faithful adherence to originalism can't lower the temperature, because it isn't even on the table. Halfhearted adherence might be, but it still wouldn't lower the temperature, because the Democrats are never, ever going to agree to originalism, too much of what they want is unconstitutional from that perspective.
Originalism cannot fail, it can only be failed.
By Democrats, by Republican judges, by so-called originalist academics...
Brett, you sound like a Marxist but for originalism.
To me, Brett sounds like a birther-class, autistic, bigoted, antisocial, delusional, grievance-consumed, obsolete, defeated, backwater right-wing misfit.
Which of those descriptors does someone wish to claim to be inaccurate?
"To me, Brett sounds like a birther-class, autistic, bigoted, antisocial, delusional, grievance-consumed, obsolete, defeated, backwater right-wing misfit."
He sounds like your mother?
You mean this originalism?
“The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish,” where Congress could literally erase the Supreme Court, or have only one justice, or have a 100 justices?
It would be awfully difficult to square Congress erasing the Supreme Court altogether with a constitutional mandate that there be a Supreme Court, no matter what the voices in your head say.
Baude is oblivious to the serious problems at the Supreme Court. They are not political. You have know nothing lawyers, a bunch of bookworms that spent 80 hours a week getting all A's. They get to decide national policy on complicated technical subjects without investigation. There is a general denial of the self evident. Article I Section 1 gives all lawmaking power to the Congress. These know nothings are making law. If you have idiots lawlessly making national policy, expect the dire consequences.
You talk in the pod cast about some members of the court not wanting the court to be seen as political.
The problem is that With Dobbs any decision they make will be seen as political by someone.