The Volokh Conspiracy
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Charles Fried's Hat and Sweater
Fried and Meese offer very different conceptions of legal conservatism.
Charles Fried is a law professor at Harvard, and served in several positions in the Reagan Administration, including as Solicitor General. During the debates over the Affordable Care Act, Fried made national headlines. He promised that if the Supreme Court invalidated Obamacare, he would eat his "kangaroo skin hat." In Unprecedented, I noted that Fried actually found a chef who would bake a cake in the shape of his hat, just in case. Alas, due to the Chief Justice's saving construction, Fried would never have to eat his hat. Now Fried is making another sartorial appeal to the Chief Justice.
Today, Fried published a guest essay in the New York Times titled "I Once Urged the Supreme Court to Overturn Roe. I've Changed My Mind." Generally, authors do not get to pick their headlines. So it is difficult to determine whether Fried adopted this headline. Moreover, it isn't clear what exactly he changed his mind about.
In Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, Fried argued that the Court should overrule Roe. At the time, he "did not see how the Constitution provides a principled basis for answering the question" of how to balance the "liberties of the pregnant woman" and "the life of another person, the fetus." Fried adds that he was "personally agnostic on that issue." I'll admit, I don't know many legal conservatives who are "personally agnostic" on abortion. Fried, who clerked for Justice Harlan when Poe v. Ullman was decided, also said that Harlan's dissent provided "foundation of the law of privacy and personal dignity." Again, I don't know many legal conservatives who take the concept of "personal dignity" as a valid constitutional doctrine. (I am forever grateful I will never have to read another Anthony Kennedy decision extolling "dignity.").
But something changed for Fried between 1989 and 1992. He writes:
In the 1992 case of Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, a joint opinion of Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy and David Souter reaffirmed the central holding of Roe and put it on a firmer constitutional basis: the dignity and autonomy of the pregnant woman and the equal rights of women more generally.
Again, I do not know many legal conservative who thinks that Casey put Roe on a firmer constitutional basis. Dignity and autonomy are made-up constitutional values, just like emanations and penumbras. And Casey did not embrace the equal protection argument that Justice Ginsburg and others have advanced over the years. Instead, Casey adopted a method of stare decisis that was overtly political, and requires looking to public perception to decide the contours of constitutional law. Dissents from Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice Scalia spell these arguments out in detail. I take it Fried disagrees with these two dissents, and stands with Souter.
Fried continues that Casey has formed the structure for other Supreme Court decisions, such as Lawrence v. Texas and Obergefell v. Hodges. (Both of those cases were 5-4, with the conservatives in sharp dissent). He writes that Casey "not only taken root; it has flourished and ramified." Fried concludes that "[t]o overturn Roe now would be an act of constitutional vandalism — not conservative, but reactionary."
I disagree. The original act of constitutional vandalism was Roe. To extend the metaphor, the Warren and Burger Courts were career criminals--arsonists, really--slashing and burning entire swaths of the Constitution to advance their ideal of a just society. The Casey plurality was an attempt to coverup to that vandalism--perhaps call them co-conspirators to the constitutional vandalism. Doubling down on that distortion in Dobbs would perpetuate those errors. Overruling Roe and Casey would be responsible, not reactionary. Stare decisis cannot mean "let the decisions of the Warren Court stand."
Fried closes with another constitutional metaphor based on clothes, directed right at the Chief Justice:
When I argued Webster and made the case that overturning Roe would not undermine the broader foundation of privacy, I learned a lesson in the use of metaphor. Seeking to invoke my mentor John Harlan, I said I was not urging the unraveling of the whole fabric of substantive due process and unenumerated rights, but only to pull this one thread. To which my opponent replied that in his experience every time he pulled a thread on his sweater, the sleeve fell off.
In Webster, Fried offered these opening remarks:
Thank you Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court. Today the United States asks this court to reconsider and overrule its decision in Roe v. Wade. At the outset, I would like to make quite clear how limited that submission is. First, we are not asking the Court to unravel the fabric of unenumerated and privacy rights which this court has woven in cases like Meyer and Pierce and Moore and Griswold. Rather, we are asking the Court to pull this one thread.
His opposing counsel, Frank Susman, offered this rejoinder:
Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the court, I think the Solicitor General's submission is somewhat disingenuous when he suggests to this court that he does not seek to unravel the whole cloth of procreational rights, but merely to pull a thread. It has always been my personal experience that when I pull a thread, my sleeve falls off. There is no stopping. It is not a thread he is after. It is the full range of procreational rights and choices that constitute the fundamental right that has been recognized by this court. For better or for worse, there no longer exists any bright line between the fundamental right that was established in Griswold and the fundamental right of abortion that was established in Roe.
Fried may still be smarting, three decades later, from being called "disingenuous."
But the admonition is wrong. In light of the Glucksberg framework, Meyer and Pierce are safe. The rights of parents to direct the upbringing of their children are deeply rooted in our nation's history and traditions. Moreover, I recently asked several social conservatives what they would think if Meyer and Pierce were jettisoned along with Roe. The answer was overwhelmingly positive. Indeed, today those cases are largely recast as First Amendment cases, so they have little separate value as substantive due process decisions.
Ultimately, I think Attorney General Meese offers a far more representative account of how legal conservatives--especially those from the Reagan Revolution--view Dobbs.
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Man. Odd momentary dyslexia. Read the headline as "Charles' Fried Hat and Sweater".
All I know is he left his scarf at Maggie Gyllenhaal's house.
And as everyone knows, hats and Sweaters should be baked, not fried.
Because friars wear robes, not sweaters and they don't wear hats.
Welcome to the winning side, Charles Fried. Welcome to the world of progress, science, enlightenment, and modernity. Take this totebag as a token of our esteem. Now go away.
A view from the perspective of dogma, superstition, ignorance, intolerance, and backwardness . . . always in vogue at the White, male, conservative Volokh Conspiracy.
Republicans have punched above their weight, for a variety of reasons, at the Supreme Court for decades. That will change. If I were a conservative, I would be wary of diminishing stare decisis . . . but I am not a conservative, because I prefer reason, science, tolerance, modernity, progress, education, and inclusiveness, so I merely observe 'do your damnedest, clingers, while you still can . . . but try to contain your whining when the liberal-libertarian mainstream stomps your stale, ugly aspirations even more soundly.
You use "White" and "male" as pejoratives...does this mean that "tolerance" includes racism and sexism?
Also, you've acknowledged in earlier discussions that *you* are white and male. Are you sure you've fully cleansed yourself from those sins?
They are descriptive -- describing an odds-defying condition that signals a number of points -- in this context.
Some may find the illumination discomforting or inconvenient.
Assume that some black women ran a blog, and you used the comments section of that blog to say:
"A view from the perspective of dogma, superstition, ignorance, intolerance, and backwardness . . . always in vogue at the black, female, liberal [name of blog]."
Would that be racist?
This issue involves the context that Black women have been and continue to be abused in America consequent to racism, while White males have been the beneficiaries and enforcers of undeserved, immoral privilege for centuries.
That context aside, if a blog's roster consisted of 12 to 15 Black, female law professors, and that blog was not labeled a purveyor of the Black female perspective, I would fault those bloggers. They would be engaged in false advertising and apparent discrimination.
This White, male blog -- the authors of roughly 99 percent of the Conspirator posts are White males --- does not describe itself as a provider of White, male, or White male perspective. It even lacks the honesty and decency to describe itself as conservative, instead flying a flag that mentions libertarian but not conservative.
In modern America's legal academia, what is the likelihood that such a roster would be so strikingly White and overwhelmingly male? One in a hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand?
Attempting to ascribe that result to happenstance seems silly. And that would be before considering points such as one Conspirator's chosen role as part of the coverup of the Kozinski episode, rather than as one of those attempting to arrange accountability (or even acknowledging the problem).
You don't like that I describe this as a White, male blog?
That's your problem . . . and, to some degree, the Conspirators'.
"He has served on the Harvard Law School faculty since 1961"
Not someone with his finger on current conservative thought.
Eh, it seems that many conservatives are OK with abortion. As long as they get their tax cuts and so long as they get to grouse about Democrats not being warlike enough abroad.
Eh, it seems that many conservatives are OK with abortion. As long as they get their tax cuts and so long as they get to grouse about Democrats not being warlike enough abroad.
" Not someone with his finger on current conservative thought. "
If that were 1861 instead of 1961, though . . .
The original act of constitutional vandalism was Roe. To extend the metaphor, the Warren and Burger Courts were career criminals--arsonists, really--slashing and burning entire swaths of the Constitution to advance their ideal of a just society. The Casey plurality was an attempt to coverup to that vandalism--perhaps call them co-conspirators to the constitutional vandalism.
This is...quite the metaphor.
And it rather misunderstands how precedent and legal citation work.
slashing and burning entire swaths of the Constitution to advance their ideal of a just society.
Schools shouldn't be segregated. Criminal defendants should get lawyers.
Shocks the conscience.
" Shocks the conscience. "
The conscience of superstitious gay-bashers, half-educated racists, backwater misogynists, selfish xenophobes, and disaffected clingers, sure.
If there is anything these wingnuts can't stand, it is all of this damned progress. What with the uppity women, the uppity Blacks, the uppity homosexuals, the uppity Muslims, the uppity immigrants, the uppity Hispanics, the uppity . . .
Brown was really the Vinson Court sans Vinson. Only Warren was new, everyone else was a democrat appointed by FDR or Truman.
When most people speak of the Warren Court, they mean the 1960s court, after Brennan got appointed and some of the old, cautious liberals died off.
Criminal defendants always could have lawyers.
A courageous judicial decision, you see, is one that stretches the law but nicely matches the observer’s policy preferences.
Anything else is arson.
https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1465542850016256005
You're missing the point (or pretending to). The relevant question is whether the Constitution demands that schools be integrated and that criminals defendants get free lawyers.
Quite telling that Roe is the "original act of constitution vandlism" is a post that uses the phase "emanations and penumbras"
Emanations and penumbras is the language of Griswold v. Connecticut. Is that decision the next target of conservatives after Roe?
Even if I disagreed with Roe (which I don't), the problem with overruling it is that there's a whole lot of caselaw since Roe that would then be called into question as well. It's not just about banning abortion; any case at all that deals with the right to privacy, the right to freedom from government control of one's most intimate decisions, the right to make choices about one's family life, all of those would be up for grabs. And for it's part, Roe relied in part on Griswald, so if Roe is invalid, maybe the state can go back to banning birth control too.
At some point you just have to say that this issue is no longer being decided on a clean slate, and you can't ignore the potential massive disruption to constitutional law that would be created by setting the clock back.
Which is why, if I had to bet money on it, my bet is the current conservative court finds a way to pay lip service to leaving Roe intact while at the same time allowing the states to make abortion a practical impossibility.
"allowing the states to make abortion a practical impossibility"
But I hear from other commenters that anti-abortion laws don't work.
That depends on how you define "work". Banning abortion would no more result in there being no abortions than banning cocaine means nobody uses cocaine. If something is lucrative enough, you'll always find someone willing to provide it. But by making them harder to get, more dangerous, and more expensive, you would reduce the numbers. And you would legally stigmatize anyone involved in it.
It's the same argument as with sodomy statutes: The reason gay sex used to be illegal was not because those laws were enforced, although sometimes they were. The reason gay sex was illegal was to make homosexuals legal pariahs.
"But by making them harder to get, more dangerous, and more expensive, you would reduce the numbers."
I mentioned in an earlier threat the woman who said she was almost aborted - but this was when abortion was illegal, and her mother didn't want to go to the extra inconvenience which existed due to the illegality.
an earlier *thread,* not threat. The only threat is to Roe v. Wade. And that fewer babies will be killed.
But that woman's argument is an argument against all birth control, not just abortion. If her parents had used birth control, she wouldn't be here either.
She wouldn't have *come into existence.* Not the same as killing someone who's already in existence, don't you think?
don't you think?
His posting history strongly suggests an answer of, "No."
Cal, and Wuz, I flatly disagree with the premise that a fetus is a child. We've had this discussion multiple times; nothing I say will convince you on that point, and nothing you say will convince me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
That aside, Cal, you've moved the goalposts. The original comment is that she wouldn't have been here if abortion had been legal, to which I respond she also wouldn't have been here if her parents had used birth control. The argument "I wouldn't be here" applies with equal force to both abortion and birth control. If someone's not here, they're not here. So, if you're going to make that argument, I think you need to apply it to birth control as well, and support a ban on that too. If you don't like that result, don't make that particular argument.
I flatly disagree with the premise that a fetus is a child
But if it were it's mother could successfully sue it for civil trespass, right?
nothing you say will convince me
Nothing says mature intellectual and emotional development like declaring that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong, no matter what.
No, because "mother" implies that it has been born. Until the fetus becomes a person, it doesn't have a mother. And I can't believe you were so spooked by that argument that you're still bringing it up weeks later.
As far as convincing me, I've read a shelf of books on fetal development (biology major here), philosophers on both sides of the issue, and legal arguments pro and con. My statement that you won't convince me is based on skepticism that you're going to make an argument that I haven't already heard, thought through, and rejected. But, if you think you have a new argument, I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. Knock yourself out.
"The original comment"
Whose original comment? Here is how I brought up the woman:
"I mentioned in an earlier threat the woman who said she was almost aborted - but this was when abortion was illegal, and her mother didn't want to go to the extra inconvenience which existed due to the illegality."
I'm not quite sure how I opened the door (so to speak) to birth control with that particular remark.
Because the argument is that she wouldn't be here if abortion had been legal. Which argument applies with equal force to birth control.
Some clingers -- the especially superstitious ones, mostly -- don't like birth control, either. Or the decisions that enabled Americans to use birth control without being arrested.
Carry on, clingers . . . . your betters will continue to let you know how far.
By the way, I am reliably informed that Wuz's birth control is his personality.
By the way, I am reliably informed that Wuz's birth control is his personality.
My (still) happy wife of 35 years and two happy, healthy children...and happy healthy granddaughter...say you're full of shit...like you always are.
The source that told me that is far more reliable than you are.
Your posting history strongly suggests that the voices in your head are a lot of things, but "reliable" is not one of them.
Wuz, if I were reading your obituary in some trashy supermarket tabloid, and I had you on the phone telling me you were still very much alive, I would conclude that the tabloid has more credibility than you do and that you were simply mistaken as to the facts. As usual.
"any case at all that deals with the right to privacy, the right to freedom from government control of one's most intimate decisions, the right to make choices about one's family life, all of those would be up for grabs."
I'm not sure that's really true, for two reasons.
1st, because a great many choices about one's family life have a really strong claim to being traditional rights, of the sort the 9th amendment was actually supposed to protect.
2nd, because to a large extent this 'right to freedom from government control of one's most intimate decisions' has been limited to abortion. Really, the sort of medical autonomy the abortion cases proclaim would have had far reaching implications for modern regulation of medical practice, if they had not been limited just to that domain.
In fact, government routinely claims control of intimate decisions and choices about family life. With the glaring exception of abortion...
But the word "traditional" appears nowhere in the Ninth Amendment; that's a gloss certain conservatives have placed on it to avoid results they don't like if the words are given their literal meaning. As written, the Ninth Amendment protects abortion rights just as much as any other intimate decision.
No, it does not. Because the 9th amendment declares that the failure to enumerate a right doesn't extinguish it, a right had to have existed in the first place to be protected by the 9th amendment.
You'd have to show that abortion was viewed as a right about the time the Bill of Rights were adopted, not merely that it wasn't always and everywhere prohibited.
Again, your gloss.
The Ninth Amendment says "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." It doesn't say rights *that were viewed as rights at the time the Ninth Amendment was written*; that's language you've added.
Even though no Southern state would have recognized it, I would take the position that any slave that had the ability to run away had the human right to do so. The issue wasn't whether he had the right; it was the refusal of the state to recognize it . But human rights are human rights whether recognized or not.
Same with a woman's right to end a pregnancy.
You're turning the 9th amendment into a judicial blank check to invent new rights. It wasn't written to change the rights people had, but only to keep listing some of the existing rights from causing the legal system to abolish others. To maintain the status quo, so we have to ask what the status quo was.
If you want new rights, use Article V.
It's not the invention of new rights so much as society growing and maturing and recognizing rights, usually about things it hadn't thought about before. By the time the judiciary gets around to finding a right to use birth control, society is usually well on its way to the same conclusion if not already there. So it's really a blank check for society to discover new rights without having to go through the Article V process. The Ninth Amendment is essentially a judicial bypass to Article V. And we've been over that ground before; give us an amendment process that isn't damn near impossible to get through, then I'll pay more attention to your argument.
Brett, I think I see where you are coming from. I wonder if you do. There is a tradition in conservative thought to look back, and take note of a trend toward greater piety the farther back you go. From that, you conclude that religiously based constraints were stronger at the time of the founding than they are today. It seems obvious. Before the founding era you had the Puritans, after all.
Problem is, a forthright historical reading will not support that reasoning. The founding era was not an era of great religious social constraint, comparable to the Puritans, or even comparable to the time of the Great Awakenings later on. New England, at least, at the time of the founding was well along in the process of turning Puritan Congregationalism into Unitarianism. Speaking only religiously, it was a time of social liberality more comparable to the mid-20th century than probably any other era in the nation's history.
You cannot infer by an imputed trend that the nation during the founding era was religiously opposed to abortion. You have to show it. And I doubt you can.
No, Stephen, that's got nothing to do with it.
My reasoning is that the 9th amendment's purpose was just to ensure that existing rights would not be lost on account of failing to list them. It wasn't meant to render the status quo fluid, it was meant to keep adoption of the Bill of Rights from changing it.
Literally, the amendment merely says that failure to enumerate a right can't be used to establish that it doesn't exist. That doesn't empower the judiciary to invent rights, it denies them an argument by which they could abolish them.
You still have to independently establish the existence of the right. And I don't see where that has been done for abortion.
If you can't establish that the right was already in existence and simply not listed, then you need an amendment to create it. Not just assert it exists due to vague societal changes, and then wipe out a bunch of laws that demonstrate that societal change you're appealing to was hardly clear.
Take the right to vote for Senators. It was already basically universal as a statutory matter before the 17th amendment, and yet an amendment was needed to make it an actual right, because legislatures had simply chosen to allow it, and didn't need to.
Given abortion was perfectly legal during the founding era, I'm sure he can't
It may have been legal, but sweet infant eight-pound, six-ounce newborn baby Jesus didn't approve (or, at least, those who claimed to speak for him didn't approve), and that's good enough for the clingers.
Bit of an exaggeration there, don't you think? Abortion was, at that time, widely a common law crime after quickening. Prior to that point, of course, you couldn't actually prove that a woman was pregnant, so you could hardly have made a crime of ending a pregnancy you couldn't prove existed in the first place.
"I would take the position that any slave that had the ability to run away had the human right to do so. "
The fugitive slave provision in Article IV, Section 2 [third para] of the Constitution said otherwise.
I'm not a legal positivist. The Constitution didn't get everything right.
¨[T]o a large extent this 'right to freedom from government control of one's most intimate decisions' has been limited to abortion.¨
I don´t think so. As a result of SCOTUS decisions, the government is not free to ban contraception, consensual sodomy, interracial marriage or same sex marriage. How many of these freedoms do you want to contract?
" As a result of SCOTUS decisions, the government is not free to ban contraception, consensual sodomy, interracial marriage or same sex marriage. How many of these freedoms do you want to contract? "
Relatively few conservatives are willing to answer that question honestly, because -- consequent to decades of liberal-libertarian progress in our society -- they no longer wish to be known as stale-thinking bigots in modern America.
It would be quicker and easier to list the conservative positions Fried hasn't changed his mind about than those he has. He's now only heard from when the NYT or its ilk needs to claim movement conservatives are dangerously extreme because, look here, even Charles Fried isn't on board!
As for the claim that Casey has "flourished and ramified," that is easy to say about an opinion that is essentially a blank check for judicial creation of new rights with a vague hand wave about dignity and autonomy and evolving standards, blah, blah, blah. Of course it's a popular cite for judges and litigants who don't want to be confined to constitutional text or history. Casey has "flourished" because it's the fast food of living constitution jurisprudence.
If Roe and Casey are abandoned, what is the next target of conservatives? Obergefell v. Hodges? Lawrence v. Texas? Griswold v. Connecticut?
Perhaps Loving v. Virginia? https://reason.com/volokh/2021/09/22/theres-no-constitutional-right-to-interracial-or-same-sex-marriage-says-the-architect-of-the-texas-heartbeat-bill/?itm_source=parsely-api
Probably not. Loving is pretty sound, speaking from an originalist perspective: Legality of inter-racial marriage was a discussed consequence of the 14th amendment prior to ratification, and the courts immediately began striking down laws against it after the amendment was ratified. Loving has a perfectly good originalist pedigree.
Sure, the Supreme court put a stop to that with Pace v Alabama, but every good originalist understands that the Supreme court's early rulings on the meaning of the 14th amendment were bad law, intended to render it moot, not honestly enforce it.
Personally, I'd like to see Wickard overturned next, but suspect that's an even more difficult ruling to overturn than Roe, given how long the federal government has been exploiting it, and that the laws that would be overturned would all be federal laws. (The Supreme court is much, much more casual about striking down state laws, than federal. As you'd kind of expect given that the justices are selected at the federal level.)
Maybe Gonzales v Raich? Much less time for it to have become deeply rooted.
"my bet is the current conservative court finds a way to pay lip service to leaving Roe intact while at the same time allowing the states to make abortion a practical impossibility"
Hopefully.
Easy enough. Favorably cite Roe and say that 15 weeks is not an undue burden under Casey due to [whatever reason gets 5 votes]
The undue burden language of Casey is inapplicable to pre-viability bans of abortion.
But I suspect you knew that.
Which issue will history regard as the most important precipitate of Supreme Court enlargement?
__ voting rights
__ abortion
__ bigotry (gay-bashing, misogyny, racism, xenophobia, etc.)
__ guns
__ special privilege for religion (superstition)
__ gridlock/partisanship/gerrymandering/election results
I made this a multiple choice question so that everyone* would have a one-in-six chance
* Well, maybe not graduates of South Texas College Of Law Houston, but there is only so much that could be done in that regard
I don't know many legal conservatives who are "personally agnostic" on abortion.
So their views on the constitutionality of abortion restrictions is driven by their personal views on the morality of abortion? Thanks for clearing that up.
I don't think very many people, conservative or not, are personally agnostic on abortion.
There have been plenty of people who are in favor of abortion but have criticized the reasoning in Roe v. Wade - there are even people who think the legalizing of abortion would have proceeded more smoothly without Roe, and who think that would have been a good thing.
So their views on the constitutionality of abortion restrictions is driven by their personal views on the morality of abortion? Thanks for clearing that up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
It’s been a long time since we’ve heard the “whole cloth of choice” argument.
The fundamental problem with this argument is that “our nation’s history and tradition of choice,” whether or not it included a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy, most certainly included a man’s right to initiate one. Not only was spousal consent not required, a husband had an explicit right to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb if she attempted defiance. And, of course, the “whole cloth of choice” also included the right to own a slave.
If choice is a whole cloth that can’t survive the unravelling of a single thread, one could hardly see how ig could possibly have survived the unravelling of these threads. After all, laws against wife-beating began getting passed at about the same time as laws against abortion. And laws against marital rape came far later.
These furious and unpreceedented assaults on the historical and traditional male liberty to initiate a pregnancy were just as great an unraveling of the whole cloth of choice as any law restricting female liberty to terminate one. If the whole cloth of choice can’t stand the unravelling of a single thread, then we ought either to strike down laws against initiation of pregnancies without spousal consent with the same vigor used to strike down laws against terminating them, or we should admit that the historical whole cloth of choice it’s unravelled, it’s over, there’s nothing left.
You can’t yourself unravel a whole bunch of the the threads of “history and tradition of choice” that don’t suit you, and then turn around and claim the cloth can’t stand the unraveling of a single thread when it happens to be one you’d prefer to keep.
The argument was always nonsense. Complete nonsense.
"Not only was spousal consent not required, a husband had an explicit right to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb if she attempted defiance."
This is a piece of "feminist fiction."
http://www.debunker.com/texts/ruleofthumb.html
Cal, you can't rely on that link.
While this explicit rule wasn’t necessarily the law everywhere, there a lot of 19th and early 20th century cases saying that at common law men had a right both to initiate sex and to beat wives who refused them. That’s the essential point.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb
From your own link:
"A modern folk etymology holds that the phrase is derived from the maximum width of a stick allowed for wife-beating under English common law, but no such law ever existed."
That’s the essential point.
No, the essential point is that your claim was bullshit...as usual.
I guess reason isn’t your strong point. You really can’t do anything except insult people, can you?
I guess reason isn’t your strong point. You really can’t do anything except insult people, can you?
See my 2nd response below. You're as clueless as you are full of shit.
Also, see my quoting from your own link, which demonstrates that you either didn't read it or were too dumb to understand it. You failed to acknowledge that. So we can add "dishonest coward" to your resume.
But "rule of thumb" being derived from the size of the stick you could beat a woman with remains fake etymology, regardless of whether some jurisdictions would let you get away with beating your wife.
I'm old enough I actually recall use of the term before the feminists invented that fake origin for it.
The argument was always nonsense. Complete nonsense.
As is nearly everything I've ever seen you post, including this one.
If one can’t think of anything rational to sY, reason, there’s always insult.
If one can’t think of anything rational to sY...
...then we end up with your commenting history.
By the way, I've responded to your nonsense-filled posts many times with nothing but substantive content, usually with references proving you wrong. You've never ONCE responded with anything substantive in return, or even had the balls to acknowledge your errors....so you're not in a position to whine about someone eventually deciding to not bothering to go to that trouble anymore, and going the shorthand route by just telling you how full of crap you are.
Wuz, perhaps that's because only very seldom does anyone here interact with you at all, which should probably tell you something. I do because of my policy to return fire when fired upon, although under the law of diminishing returns I'm starting to ask myself why bother. But for the most part, you're ignored by most commenters here most of the time. There's a reason for that.
I already pointed out that the only reason anyone interacts with you is to tell you how full of shit you are. And in fact the vast majority of responses here are by people telling someone how wrong they are. But you're still not bright enough to understand that's not a good thing.
Oh, that's not the reason most people don't bother to interact with you, and we can add total lack of self awareness to your already long list of endearing qualities. (That was sarcasm in case you missed it.)
The thing is though, most of the people here are adult enough to recognize that there is widespread disagreement on contentious social and legal issues, and you can think someone is wrong without also concluding (or saying) that they are necessarily full of shit. Your contributions here generally -- not always -- consist of little more the middle school snark. There are blogs where that sort of thing is popular. This isn't one of them.
Just block him already.
I'm reminded about the quote on getting into a wrestling match with a pig.
"Not only was spousal consent not required"
It's not that it was not required. The view prior to the establishment of marital rape laws was that consent for sex was implicit to marriage.
The way I’d look at it is that a sort of apologetics arose. For example, the Supreme Court of North Carolina said in a 19th century case there wasn’t actually a right to beat ones wife with a switch, it’s just that the state doesn’t interfere with private family matters like beating ones wife with a switch, so it ruled a husband who beat his wife with a switch had acted legally.
Wasn’t that similar to abortion? When it was legal in the past, it’s not that it was considered a good thing or something one ought to do, just something that the state didn’t interfere with.
One could say both were never rights, and neither were always legal in the past. But it doesn’t seem to me the two were really handled all that differently. Wife-beating was perceived as a private family matter, described in much the same way that the Supreme Court came to describe things like abortion.
I don´t have a dog in the fight of who is or is not a true conservative, but is it conservative to regress to a black market in surgical services?
I'd personally prefer to 'regress' to a free market in surgical services, but the point of banning abortion is that hiring a hit man isn't a "surgical service" even if he uses a scalpel to kill the target.
The real point of contention in the abortion argument is how many people are involved, not what the rights of people ought to be. That's why even the LP originally stayed neutral on abortion, understanding that pro-life libertarians really were legitimately libertarian.