The Volokh Conspiracy
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Buddha, Christ, and Hercules Walk Into a Bar, in 1938 Wyoming …
An interesting passage on self-defense, which I think represents the majority though not unanimous view.
In State v. Bristol (Wyo. 1938), the facts were generally (as summarized by a later case):
[T]he defendant had helped eject the intoxicated victim from a liquor store and cocktail lounge. The victim [Skogerson] later returned and proceeded to abuse the defendant verbally, threatening to "stomp his face in" when the defendant left the premises. The defendant took a gun with him when he left the premises and went to a café. Although the defendant claims to have been unaware of this, the victim was in the same café. The victim physically attacked the defendant, who shot him. The State claimed that the defendant was the aggressor because he armed himself and went to where the victim was.
The trial court had instructed the jury on self-defense, but added:
Instruction No. 16. You are instructed that if one is an aggressor or provokes a difficulty or affray, he cannot invoke the right of self-defense to justify the killing of his antagonist, unless he first, in good faith, withdraws or attempts to withdraw from the combat, and that, too, in a way that his adversary will see that he intends to withdraw, and he cannot justify the slaying of an adversary, because in the course of an encounter, when to save his own life or to save himself from great bodily harm it became necessary to kill, where he has been at fault in causing the difficulty in which he becomes endangered.
Instruction No. 17. You are instructed in relation to the law of self-defense, that one cannot claim the benefits of the law of self defense, after he has intentionally put himself where he knows or believes he will have to invoke its aid….
The state argued:
Bristol did not go home from the liquor store. He went out looking for Skogerson. He came to the restaurant armed and looked in to ascertain definitely if deceased Skogerson and Johnson were present. He went back before the booth where deceased sat as if to taunt him as a picador does a bull. He knew that his actions would provoke a quarrel and in the dimly lighted back hall he could shoot deceased with impunity.
The Bristol court responded:
The State thinks that he should have gone home, instead of going to the restaurant. The jury doubtless took that view, and it is not improbable that the fact that he did not go home was the most potent factor in convicting the defendant. And, ethically speaking, that, perhaps, is what he should have done.
Without saying what the true facts are in this case, it is true that standing upon one's rights is not always the best course. The predicament in which the defendant finds himself today is good evidence thereof. Many times it pays and pays in solid rewards to follow the advice of Buddha when he urged: "Let a man overcome anger by love; let him overcome evil by good," or to follow the advice of Christ when he exhorted: "Resist not him that is evil, but whosoever smiteth thee upon thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
But we have not arrived at such happy age. The difficulties in the way of reaching such end seem to be more herculean than the labors of Hercules. The restaurant was a public place. It was in itself not an unlawful or wrongful act for the defendant to go there. If it was wrongful, it was made so because the deceased had made wrongful and unlawful threats. The mind recoils from drawing such illogical conclusion.
Logic, of course, must give way at times to the larger interests of ethics and public policy, and if the latter clearly required the defendant to avoid the restaurant in this case because of the threats, we should disregard the logic of the situation. But the point here under consideration involves ethics and public policy as well. It involves the balancing of the interests between liberty and freedom of movement and the restraint thereof.
It involves the question as to whether or not the law can afford to encourage bullies to stalk about the land and terrorize citizens by their mere threats. We hesitate to lay down a rule which would do that.
The principle involved here bears a similarity to the principle or rule prevailing in some jurisdictions relating to "retreat to the wall." In both is involved the rule of avoidance of homicide. The rule of retreat to the wall is applied (where it prevails) in cases of actual assault. In cases such as that before us, the element of time seems to be of greater importance, seemingly making a fairly distinguishing mark between the two classes of cases.
If a man must curtail his freedom of movement by reason of threats made against him, during what length of time must he do so? Is it for just a few hours, a day, a week, a month? It might be as fatal in the one case as in the other. In any event, whether our analysis is correct or not, at least some of the courts, as those of Kentucky and Alabama, which hold to the rule of "retreat to the wall" also lay[] down the rule that a man has a right to go where he will notwithstanding threats against him….
All would agree that a man should not be compelled to shun his own home in order to avoid the threatened, unlawful action of another. Few, if any, would dissent that the rule should be the same as to going to the place of a man's business. The differences of opinion would arise in connection with going to other places in the face of such threats. Probably all would agree that if it is necessary to go to a place, a man should be permitted to do so. But there are degrees of necessity.
A defendant would be apt to be disbelieved by a jury, as they probably disbelieved the defendant in this case, so that, if the question of necessity of going were made the criterion, a defendant would determine that question at his peril, and his liberty of movement would be materially curtailed. There is, perhaps, more room for debate in a case where the defendant merely at or for his pleasure goes to where his antagonist is. But … a man may [generally] go where he has a right to be, and we hesitate in view of the apparently overwhelming authority to that effect, to hold that such rule should not prevail in this state….
"The right to go where one will, without let or hindrance, despite of threats made, necessarily implies the right to stay where one will, without let or hindrance. These remarks are controlled by the thought of a lawful right to be in the particular locality to which he goes or in which he stays.
"It is true, human life is sacred, but so is human liberty. One is as dear in the eye of the law as the other, and neither is to give way and surrender its legal status in order that the other may exclusively exist, supposing for a moment such anomaly to be possible. In other words, the wrongful and violent act of one man shall not abolish or even temporarily suspend the lawful and constitutional right of his neighbor." …
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To me the big difference between the St Louis couple that brandished weapons and the GA redneKKKs that brandished weapons is that the St Louis couple was in front of their home and they have every right to prevent people from entering their home and so brandishing weapons in front of one’s home is sending the message to stay away from their home when it is illegal to unlawfully enter a person’s home. The GA redneKKKs had no right to detain Arbery or impede his movement and so brandishing a weapon while using cars to pin the victim in is false imprisonment and everything that flows from that illegal act is on them and they have no right to self defense.
I haven't followed the Arbery case in any detail; my impression is pretty much what you say. I have seen a couple of vague mentions that others had seen him in that area wandering around construction sites, with the implication that he was casing the joint or something. But I have also wandered around new home construction sites, out of curiosity more than anything.
At any rate, unless they had seen him committing a crime, they had no right to detain him, from what little I have read.
Lawyer: "human life is sacred", "better 10 guilty men go free than one innocent one be falsely convicted" Of course, because those are criminal clients. The release of 10 criminals is a natural disaster for any community. The lawyer will also defend and try to keep alive the client. Nothing the scumbag lawyer says has the slightest credibility, let along any validity. The lawyer never bothers to validate his statements. He know a man with a gun will do so.
Contrary to Crummyton's dishonest mischaracterization of the facts of the case the McMichaels neither detained Arbery nor impeded his movement. When Roddy Brian (the cellphone photographer) joined the chase he stopped in front of Arbery and Arbery ran into the side of his truck, but the McMichaels didn't direct him to do that.
GA citizens arrest law, by its plain language, ALLOWS a citizen's arrest to take place if the citizen has "immediate knowledge of a crime OR probable suspicion of a felony. Putting aside the question of whether multiple videos of Arbery trespasses posted by the owner to a Facebook CrimeWatch group by the owner gave both McMichaels immediate knowledge of Arbery's crimes (the law appears to date to Colonial times, long before video) TRAVIS McMichael had encountered Arbery criminally trespassing on the English place on Feb 11th. So they had, by the letter of the law, the right to arrest Arbery on the 23rd. But that's moot since no arrest was attempted. Had Arbery just kept running (or if he'd stopped and remained unarrested to await the police, who'd been summoned) he'd be alive today. Instead he attacked Travis McMichael, just the way Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse.
The problem with your theory is that a *police officer* who shot a fleeing suspect would be looking at prosecution, and certainly civil liability. The issue is not the legality of the citizens arrest; the issue is the excessive use of force. Even if Arbery had in fact been the felon they claim they thought him to be, you don't shoot someone who's trying to get away from you. Especially when there's three of you and one of him. There was just no need to shoot him.
I was, and am, agnostic on whether Rittenhouse should have been convicted, but not on this one. These three assholes deserve every bad thing that happens to them.
In my state case law says you may not use deadly force to make a citizen's arrest except when aiding police. So pulling a gun to make a citizen's arrest is partly a bluff. I think citizen's arrests are quite rare here. The most recent case I remember reading retroactively changed an illegal out-of-jurisdiction arrest by municipal police officers into a legal citizen's arrest to avoid throwing out a DUI case.
No; the problem with his theory is that his argument is based on the idea that being black = probable cause. In fact, the McMichaels had no knowledge or probable cause of any crime by Arbery, let alone a felony.
Wandering through an open construction site is not a crime.
David, that too. I suspect the actual dynamic here is that they were offended that a black man disrespected them. However, in the interest of not making race an issue if it doesn't need to be, even if the citizens arrest was otherwise legitimate, the force used was clearly excessive.
Wandering through a construction site is trespass, even if the site is not specially fenced.
Which does not resolve the excessive force issue.
I presume trespass isn't a felony, so that leaves them with needing to have "immediate knowledge of a crime". So unless they actually saw him at the site right then, doesn't seem to meet the requirements for a citizen's arrest regardless of whether the use of force was excessive.
Depends on the state. Trespass is a misdemeanor in some states but a felony in many (most?) others. It appears to be a misdemeanor in Georgia but I don't pretend to be an expert or to know whether any aggravating factors might influence that categorization.
Of course, none of that even approaches the question of whether the use of force was excessive.
Can you name some?
Again, I'm not an expert but here are a few.
Pennsylvania
New York (if first degree)
Arkansas (I think limited to repeat offenders)
Arizona (though only if trespassing in certain locations or for certain purposes)
California (if "aggravated" - and they seem to give themselves a lot of latitude to decide what will count as aggravated in any given circumstance)
I mean, colloquially, sure. But not legally.
Criminal trespass requires that (a) one have an unlawful purpose; or (b) enter or remain after having been provided notice from the owner that entry is forbidden. A fence can provide such notice, as can posted signs (assuming the putative trespasser saw them). But neither were present here.
The issue is not the legality of the citizens arrest
That absolutely is the issue...and is in fact the key legal issue in this case. If the CA was not supported by the law then the actions the defendants took pursuant to it were not legal. If it was legally justified then what they did to that end might also have been (note I'm not saying "was") legally justified. And further note that Arbery doesn't need to have been actually committing a felony for them to be found in the clear on the CA. Per the GA statute they need only have "reasonably suspected" that he had. I doubt that they can back that claim up, and even if they could they wouldn't satisfy the additional requirement of having to have effected the CA at the time of the suspected crime rather than at a later time.
So my prediction is that they're toast, and due to the very issue that you're trying to claim doesn't matter.
By your own quote, you undermine your case with quibbling:
First off, stopping in front of Arbery such that Arbery's choices are to stop where he is or run into the side of Brian's truck, that's down on Brian, he's the aggressor, Arbery has no duty to meekly submit to some stranger, and his dodging of Brian doesn't give anyone, Brian or the McMichaels, the right to try to detain him, or to shoot him for not wanting to be detained.
Second, seeing a trespass and acting on it 12 days later is hardly "immediate".
Third, IANAL, and you didn't supply any detail, but trespass hardly seems like a felony to me, especially trespass 12 days before.
Fourth, you say Brian "joined in the chase", begging the question of "Why? Was Brian just out for some jollies, looking for a bit of sport?" and wondering why the McMichaels began the chase in the first place.
The whole thing smells, and without knowing more than some suspicion of a 12 day old alleged felony trespass, it smells of 3 white guys wondering why a black man is running through their white neighborhood. Doesn't make them KKK and more than it makes Albery out to a thief. It just smells too much to be any kind of legitimate citizen's arrest, and their remedy was far beyond what was necessary. It makes them out to be Karens of the worst sort.
To answer your suspicions they were all —every single one— bone stupid. Arbery knew they were suspicious of him from earlier encounter, yet returned anyway to this place about 2 miles from his home. When he left the construction site, seeing the neighbor on the phone to police, took off running. McMicheals Sr was previously a cop (sort of suspended his last few years) and should have known the limits, but ignored them. Jr wanted to find his pistol, lost from his truck left unlocked for a week while parked on the street. Brian saw the chase and .... joined in to be neighborly and helpful .... or something; had just bought the house a couple days before. The local police 'investigation' and first 3 prosecutors, including McMicheals Sr previous boss, were much the same; one stupid decision after another.
The shame is they'd already called the cops. Satilla Shores is essentially a huge loop with a single access to the highway, and Arbery couldn't leave without police identifying him as a suspicious person or similar. Lots of better outcomes were possible.
It seems every single last action or item was stupidity; and so sad too.
IANAL -- I try to imagine a fake made-up-by-me legal doctrine which I call "original sin". Who started the rhubarb? Who kept pushing the rhubarb? I know there are lots of subtleties which probably vary by state, such as backing off, surrendering, apologizing; returning to the scene after backing off (as G.G. did in Kenosha when he first raised his gun away from Kyle, then lowered it and aimed it at Kyle again); but they all seem in line with my original sin theory, and as long as I don't try to hang out a shingle to practice law, it seems to match most discussions I have read.
The "original sin" in this case was Arbery running directly at Travis McMichael, alarming TM enough to cause him to point his weapon at Arbery, which concern Arbery then validated by running around the McMichael truck to attack TM from a different direction. Watch the video. Nothing the McMichaels had done before that point was illegal.
No. By your own quote to me above, Albery only ran at Travis because Brian had seen a chase, made up his mind who was in the wrong, and purposely blocked him. That's nowhere near enough justification to shoot him.
I don't think the resident leftists here can understand this situation or make distinctions without knowing the race and ancestry of everyone involved.
Not ancestry. It was enough for them that Huber etc were on Team Riot and Rittenhouse was on Team Anti-Riot to know that Rittenhouse was a racist, even though only JumpKicker seems to have been black.
You don't think that it was exactly the thing EV highlighted here, i.e. that he travelled to another town for the express purpose of getting mixed up in a fight that he was no part of?
That he traveled to the town he worked in, where his family lived, you mean?
Yes
Yes.
"for the express purpose of getting mixed up in a fight that he was no part of."
How was rioting in the town where he worked, and his parents lived, something he was no part of?
Not to mention that the state line is only about 1 MILE from his home.
Do you really think that generalized rioting is the kind of fight being addressed by the law discussed here? If so, who started it, given that incitement to fight is a key part of liability?
that he travelled to another town for the express purpose of getting mixed up in a fight that he was no part of?
Are you two dipshits referring to Grosskreutz or Rosenbaum?
Huber and Grosskreutz. Rosenbaum does appear to have been a resident of Kenosha. But yes, I concur. Ziminski was also from out of town.
Brett, didn't you argue earlier that his crossing the state line was immaterial? The state and town boundaries are both just lines on a map, the argument is whether he went out of his way to find trouble or was defending a neighborhood that he had personal ties to.
We know the downtown used car lot was roughly 20 miles from Kyle's home but I haven't seen details about how close it was to where his family lived or where he worked. I expect either the prosecution or the defense would have brought it up, depending on which side the answers favored, but haven't seen it reported anywhere.
His father lives in Kenosha and he works there, but that is meaningless in terms of legal analysis, he had a right to anywhere he wanted. And no duty to avoid the rioters and looters that thought he was interfering to much with their destruction of Kenosha.
Most of the rioters were from out of town too, I doubt that will be brought up if any of them are charged.
If there is any lesson from all of this it’s that when rioting starts, a hands off attitude by the police and Governor is a recipe for more violence, not less.
This article might lead you to that legal conclusion, but it is not so cut-and-dried.
From Andrews v. US (DC Court of Appeals 2015)
What an atrocious doctrine. So if a rabbi wanders past a group of skinheads on a street corner and they get offended by his presence and attack him, he can't claim self defence when he rightfully shoots them?
The facts and doctrine in the Andrews case were rather more narrow: "The trial judge instructed the jury that one who deliberately puts himself in a position where he reasonably believes his presence will provoke trouble forfeits the right of self-defense, and that appellant could not rely on self-defense if he provoked Leonard Bigelow's alleged attack on him. "
That's because Andrews had been previously threatened by the dead man with a knife, who reportedly said he would kill Andrews if Andrews did not leave the dead man's sister alone. Andrews called the man to say he was coming over to see the man's sister, and went armed to their house. It's reasonable to believe he expected the dead man to repeat or make good on the earlier threat.
Rittenhouse lived closer to the site of the shootings than any of the men he shot. If travel distance is supposed to mean anything about contributory incitement, they contributed more -- even before we consider their arson, assault, or other forms of rioting.
Self-defense is an excuse of necessity, not a legal justification, it isn't an argument that "they deserved it".
No, but people keep implying that distance has something to do with guilt or responsibility here
The people Rittenhouse shot did deserve it, though.
This whole concept that one ought not to "get mixed up in a fight that one is no part of" is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. It's the Kitty Genovese theory of life.
It may be, and I agree with this, that one has no positive duty to come to another's aid when he is attacked, that one may pass by on the road and leave him to his fate and yet keep ones moral purity as intact as ones bodily integrity. But only a monster could claim that one has a duty not to do so.
That POS prosecutor Binger claimed that when Rittenhouse came to his sister's aid he did the wrong thing, by making the fight two to one, which is unfair. But I'm sure their parents were very proud of him, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they had specifically taught him that it was his fraternal duty.
One who puts himself in danger in order to protect a victim of violence is a hero. That's pretty much the definition of heroism. It's what we mean by "civic responsibility". And Kyle Rittenhouse is a hero. Any decent parent would be proud to have such a son; if he'd been killed it would obviously hurt them terribly, but it would be a comfort to know that he had died heroically, protecting those who needed it, just like a fallen soldier or fireman.
Same applies in international relations. No dictatorship is legitimate, and all free nations may ethically invade and free those who are trapped.
They may choose not to for practical reasons (death of their own, money, death of local innocents), and may choose not to because they, not the dictators, have created international stability rules.
But ethically there is no issue. Dictatorships are large hostage situations, and there is no "right of self determination" being exercised there.
No dictatorship is legitimate, and all free nations may ethically invade and free those who are trapped.
That may well be your personal morality, but it is not now, nor has it ever been, the legal or moral rule that governs the behaviour of states in their international relations.
All that means is that the behavior of states in their international relations is not governed by any moral rule at all, but by a very immoral and disgusting rule, that free nations have every right to ignore, and ought to ignore. They may decide not to come to some victims' aid because it would be imprudent, or because it would cost too much, or because all their available forces are committed to something even more important, but they cannot pretend that they're not doing so because it would be wrong.
That may well be your personal morality, but it is not now, nor has it ever been, the legal or moral rule that governs the behaviour of states in their international relations.
And yet we still celebrate D-Day.
There's a distinction, the Nazis had already started the conflict on an international level. I mean, obviously, since D-Day was an invasion of France to fight Germans. It wasn't directly "The Germans are being assholes to their Jewish citizens, we should go stop them" in the years before they invaded anyone else.
I tend to agree with Krayt's position regarding the morality of the situation, I think. But it may very well be a violation of the principle against the waging of aggressive war.
Of course, there's also the factor that it's generally the winners who get to staff the tribunals, so much as how treason never prospers...
If, leaving aside the *very* large questions of nuclear deterrence and numerical balance, the US had invaded the Soviet Union because of the way they were treating their people, the question of whether we got punished for waging aggressive war there would strongly depend on whether we won or not, I suspect.
There's a distinction, the Nazis had already started the conflict on an international level. I mean, obviously, since D-Day was an invasion of France to fight Germans. It wasn't directly "The Germans are being assholes to their Jewish citizens, we should go stop them" in the years before they invaded anyone else.
How is that a distinction wrt...
"all free nations may ethically invade and free those who are trapped"
...? Germany didn't invade the U.S. They invaded and occupied France and other countries, which we then crossed an ocean (not just the dreaded "state lines") to invade in order to liberate them (and crush the Nazi regime).
IIUC, Perlhaqr is talking about whether it would have been moral for the rest of the world to invade Germany in 1938 because of they were treating the Jews, or the USSR because of how Stalin was treating his citizens, or the U.S. because of Jim Crow.
Personally, I don't think you can parse these things too closely from a legal POV. Heck, when we invaded France we did so against the wishes of the legal (if not legitimate :-)) government of France at the time.
Britain was considering preemptively occupying Norway before the Nazi's preemptively occupied, AKA invaded, it first. Britain did preemptively occupy Iceland (Germany considered it, but realized it wasn't practical).
Would it be moral if the world got together and told Kim Jong Whichever he needed to retire into luxurious exile or the world was going to invade and liberate the NK people? I tend to think he is so spectacularly evil that would be justified, but OTOH I don't think you can make the same case for most of the lesser dictators spread around the globe.
Lotsa gray areas, I think.
Legal rules govern international relations?!
When did this happen?
1268 was the first prosecution of the crime of waging aggressive war. Conrad the Boy lost his life over having done so.
It's the Kitty Genovese theory of life.
If you don't understand the difference between witnessing a violent crime up close and personal and seeing it on TV from another state, I really don't know how to help you.
If he were in California, for example, you may have a point. The fact is he lived 20 miles away, worked there, and had family there; in other words he had deep legitimate connections to the community. The fact that his car had different license plates is irrelevant.
Somehow people seem to suddenly think 20 miles is some long distance. In reality it's closer than most people's work commute. It's only about 3 miles further than I have to drive to go to the grocery store. People who live close to a state line cross back and forth all the time for a variety of purposes. It's a state line, not the Korean DMZ. It's not even the Canadian border.
In my younger days we crossed from PA to Ohio almost every weekend because the drinking age was 18 over there, not 21 and there was a pretty good club to go to. It was about a half hour drive with traffic.
I don't agree that he would have a point if he were in California. Sure, I wouldn't expect him to hop on a plane and come to the victims' aid, but if he felt the responsibility to do so I could only admire him for it.
Kyle went to work that day in Kenosha, so he wasn’t witnessing it from afar.
You just keep repeating talking points which are contradicted by the facts, and are legally irrelevant anyway.
I would flip that around and say that if you don't understand the similarities, I have no clue how to help you. Your words describe an almost pathological inability to empathize merely because "it's on TV".
I want to think that you are not so crippled and that you actually can empathize with victims even when you don't personally know them. But that means you're either being intellectually lazy or deceptive in your comment above.
No, I don't understand the difference, and I assert that there is no significant difference. Mere proximity to a situation can't possibly give you a right to intervene that you would not have had had you been a few miles away, or even a few thousand miles away. Morality doesn't vary with distance, like some sort of inverse square law.
Distance does matter; it's called "community". When Rittenhouse finished his job in Kenosha, he and a friend scrubbed riot graffiti off a local school. While there, he heard local businesses were asking help to protect their property. Rittenhouse went.
Not my first choice; but he got off the couch and put out fires and gave first aid while the 'proper authorities' stood by and watched the city burn from a distance, and for that alone he was a hero.
Your reading of EV is delusional, and your characterization of KR's relationship with Kenosha intentionally misleading. Calling the riots there "a fight that he was no part of" is retarded.
That may well be, but that's a question of fact. Separately from that, there's a question of law, i.e. the one that EV posted about. And there's a reason he posted about it.
You sent hostile bits across national boundaries to get mixed up in a fight that you were no part of. Don't be such a hypocrite.
Who is this "you" you speak of?
You. Martinned. What are you so quick to get mixed up in fights you have no part of?
If that were the standard, nobody would ever post anything here.
Some of us live in the US, and are very much affected by the legal system here. Martinned is engaging in international hostilities.
No. Merely being there does not rise to that level. He did not seek anyone out. He did not initiate any confrontations. He had every legal right to be there. Had people simply left him be at the car dealership he was asked to watch, they would be alive. Even attempting to extinguish the fire in the dumpster cannot be considered threatening to a reasonable person. The mere act of openly carrying a weapon (he was not waving, brandishing, or behaving in a threatening manner) does not rise to the level that would cause alarm.
Bottom line is the rioters saw him as an impediment to their plans for mayhem and destruction and took it upon themselves to try to remove him from the equation so they could continue with their destruction.
"that he travelled to another town for the express purpose of getting mixed up in a fight that he was no part of?"
He travelled to another town for the express purpose of working as a lifeguard. But who cares about facts when there's a narrative, right?
"that he travelled to another town for the express purpose of getting mixed up in a fight that he was no part of?"
If this is morally, let alone, legally wrong, then the Marquise de Lafayette was not a hero of the Revolution, but instead a war criminal.
My point being that the concept that this behavior is a public good has its roots in the founding of the nation.
"The right to go where one will, without let or hindrance, despite of threats made, necessarily implies the right to stay where one will, without let or hindrance. These remarks are controlled by the thought of a lawful right to be in the particular locality to which he goes or in which he stays."
This certainly counters those who call Kyle a chaos tourist and say his mere presence armed in Kenosha that night was provocative. Whether it was a good idea for him to be there isn't a legal issue, that he felt he needed to be there and had as much right as anyone else to be there is all the justification he needed for his presence.
The 'chaos tourist' idiots don't care what the truth is, they were making up stories to justify why they should get what they wanted. As as been well established, he had more than adequate connection to Kenosha to justify being there.
His connection is irrelevant. The brave soldiers who stormed Normandy had no connection to France. According to the Kitty Genovese theory they should have left Europe to its fate because it was none of their business.
I agree that it wouldn't have mattered if he'd traveled a thousand miles there on a lark, the simple facts of the case would properly acquit him of the charges.
But that the people attacking him feel the need to make shit up is telling. I'm STILL reading accounts of this that downplay the criminal nature of the guys he shot, and give the prosecution's account of events as though it were the truth.
This is shaping up to be another one of those cases where, even after losing in court, the media doesn't stop their efforts to poison the public mind against the guy.
I don't think it's even necessary to bring up the criminal *nature* of the people he shot, though it does provide some context. Their criminal actions -- and specifically their criminal actions towards Kyle -- are very much sufficient.
Kazinski, because the legal issues are the subject under debate, let's avoid conclusory circularity about the legal stuff, and start instead with a factual issue. Whatever the state of the law, it has nothing to do with the question whether Rittenhouse's armed presence actually proved provocative. Events proved beyond any doubt that it was provocative, catastrophically so. Some might debate whether the source of that provocation was Rittenhouse himself, his weapon by itself, misconduct by others, or some combination. Candor insists that it was a combination of factors, and not any one of them by itself.
I get that gun advocates wish it were not the case that they could be implicated for provocative behavior with their guns. They are of course accustomed to think they are not liable, and invariably blame others. Indeed, reading the comments on these threads has taught me that for many gun advocates, desire to be provocative, and even to be intimidating, is cherished as an important aspect of the right to bear arms. That has not always been so, but it is increasingly so now.
Provocation of course is what Rittenhouse intended, as his behavior showed. He achieved more provocation than he bargained for, and had to shoot his way out of the mini-riot which ensued—which surely would not have ensued had he left the gun behind, and come unarmed.
This is undeniable fact—if Rittenhouse had come unarmed, he would never have been any more the focus of violent reaction than anyone else present. That calls into question any assertion that blame for the trouble lies entirely with those whom Rittenhouse shot. That blame is shared.
So now return to the subject of the law, and what it ought to be. What, if anything, does the completely avoidable trouble Rittenhouse touched off by bringing his gun tell us about what the law ought to be—while staying mindful that gun ownership is a right, and bearing arms is part of it? I suggest it tells us that we need, at a minimum, to approach the problem in terms of rights in conflict.
It has been reiterated often that Rittenhouse had a right to be where he was. By what right? Presumably the right of assembly has something to do with it. The right of assembly is conditional. It's manner is prescribed. It must be peaceable assembly. There is no right to violent assembly.
As Rittenhouse showed the world, private gun carriers parading arms during a riot is not peaceable. His conduct did in fact occasion a further shattering of the peace, and the gun had something to do with it. Invocation of rights does nothing to alter that fact. It is also a fact which should not be left unaddressed, lest it's neglect too heavily burden the right of peaceable assembly.
The time has come to protect and strengthen the right of peaceable assembly. Pass a federal law, defining as not peaceable gun carrying at political assemblies, or during civil unrest. Empower law enforcement agencies to confiscate guns which threaten to provoke violent reactions at otherwise lawful assemblies. Also, make it explicit that armed intimidation is one of the harms the law is meant to prevent.
A principle asserted and protected by the peaceable assembly law should be that the right to bear arms for self-defense, or for defense of society generally, does not extend to intimidating would-be participants at constitutionally protected assemblies. Absent some such assertion of a public right against armed intimidation, present trends toward broadening the right to bear arms will prove unwise, and predictably deliver instead a loss of liberty.
If he had been unarmed he would be dead or injured. That is a fact. His "provocation" consisted entirely of daring to put out the fires the mob had set, to try to prevent them from destroying the property they wished to destroy, and to render aid to those they wished to injure.
Your wall of text is full of utter nonsense. It's not "provocative" to be prepared to defend yourself just because it causes some dangerous criminal loon to target you.
Lathrop is apparently a fan of the "she was asking for it, just look what she was wearing" type of logic.
When people say a person in a mini-skirt "slays" they don't mean it in the same bullet-per-squeeze way one gets with an assault rifle.
It's egregious motte and bailey bullshit, and it's not even separated. The terms "peaceable assembly" and "civil unrest" appear in the same fucking paragraph. Scratch that, in *consecutive sentences*.
Yes, Lathrop, we get it. You're opposed to guns, and you support arsonists who rape little boys. No wonder you use the same "provocative dress" language. No one that Rittenhouse shot was engaged in legitimate protest. Every utterance of your foul screed was bent to the purpose of defiling the concept of civilization. Frankly, you're so low I wonder at that you fear firearms and not antibiotics.
You don't think rioters burning the businesses of innocent owners (the business owners mostly black) counts as provocation?
The word you are looking for is deterrence, not provocation. Only a fool, or someone suicidal would guard a piece of property in the middle of a riot unarmed. To say otherwise implies that in any unrest property owners or their designees have an obligation to merely concede to the aims of the rioters.
If I live or have a business that finds itself in the middle of a violent riot, I am under no obligation to surrender it to those who would destroy it.
Is it provocation to wear a MAGA hat near an Antifa rally? Some would say if you got beat up it was your fault and you had it coming. But you have no obligation to curtail your rights because others find the mere exercise of your rights is a provocation.
As an example of deliberate provocation to assert your rights is the US sending Naval Patrols into International waters claimed by the Chinese in the South China Sea, waters a thousand miles from China and much closer to Vietnam and the Philippines.
We are being deliberately provocative to make a point and assert a right to peaceful navigation in international waters, lest we lose it.
The same principle applies to our constitutional rights here at home, use them or lose them. And don’t let anyone tell you your rights can only be exercised when it’s convenient to them.
"Whatever the state of the law, it has nothing to do with the question whether Rittenhouse's armed presence actually proved provocative. Events proved beyond any doubt that it was provocative, catastrophically so."
Sure. A short skirt's provocative, too.
If your argument is that Rittenhouse's armed presence was provocative because it provoked Rosenbaum, that's a bad argument.
A short skirt's provocative, too.
His entire argument is analogous to, "The way she was dressed, she was asking for it." The prosecution tried that and got curbstomped.
TwelveInch, put the analogy aside, and try to make the case using only the facts of Rittenhouse's conduct in Kenosha. I doubt you can do it. If you can't, then the analogy is no good.
Make what case? Your case? That's impossible, as your 'case' is based on lies and delusions.
Here's you biggest claim: "This is undeniable fact—if Rittenhouse had come unarmed, he would never have been any more the focus of violent reaction than anyone else present."
Not only is this claim deniable, it is trivially false. Rittenhouse came to the attention of Rosenbaum and his ilk because he was putting out their fires.
"TwelveInch, put the analogy aside, and try to make the case using only the facts of Rittenhouse's conduct in Kenosha."
Sigh. Read the second sentence of my comment, pointing out that your reasoning is circular: You said that his conduct was provocative because it provoked people.
TwelveInch, as I said, you couldn't do it.
Instead, you offer up a truism, attribute it to me, and call it circular reasoning. Normally, truism is a kind of fallacy, but not a circular reasoning fallacy. Remarkably, you have managed to turn that truism into legitimate evidence against your own argument.
Yes, I agree, I said Rittenhouse's conduct was provocative because it provoked people. Do you think to concede that happened is a means to overturn an argument that there is evidence that it happened? I hope not.
What really does not work logically is to reiterate rights as a means to derail a discussion about what the extent of those rights ought to be. Benjamin Franklin noted that problem more than two centuries ago.
Notice that I was trying to take a broader view than the Rittenhouse case. I already said in another comment that I would have voted to acquit Rittenhouse. I did not say otherwise here. All the blah, blah, about the Rittenhouse case is just getting dragged in as a subject change, to hamper a different discussion.
There is an urgent question whether a wise polity can afford to let small minorities parade arms to influence peaceable assemblies. There is a different but related question whether it is wise during a riot to let private would-be armed enforcers try to supplant police if the former disagree with enforcement policies.
Seems like the VC ought to be an appropriate forum to discuss issues such as those. Want to give it a try?
This is undeniable fact—if Rittenhouse had come unarmed, he would never have been any more the focus of violent reaction than anyone else present.
That is the opposite of a fact. It is pure speculation. Every one of your premises are flawed by similar fallacy.
Stephen, that is among the most ridiculous posts you've made. You make up events, make up laws, and promote twisted interpretations of the law that are in direct contradiction to established precedent.
The presence of a legally carried firearm isn't in of itself provocation. It isn't even probable cause, i.e., the police can't stop you just for carrying. (They do, but they are wrong to do so.). To have provoked anyone, Rittenhouse would have had to threaten someone. He didn't. Just sweeping an area as you turn around because a shot was fired behind you isn't provocation. And, even if it was, his fleeing Rosenbaum until he was cornered and no longer able to retreat put an end to any supposed provocation.
Stripping people of one constitutional right, the 2nd, because they are exercising another, the 1st, is nonsense, and unconstitutional.
Yes, people can peaceably assemble while armed. Where did you get the idea that they cannot? You made it up.
There's so much junk in that post it's not worth the time to fisk thoroughly, although that would be easy to do, though tedious.
Events proved beyond any doubt that it was provocative, catastrophically so.
Except that they proved no such thing. As anyone who hasn't had his head lodged two feet up his own colon the whole time (which likely excludes you) knows there were quite a few people there openly carrying firearms, including those carrying rifles...which included those carrying rifles similar to Rittenhouse's. And yet none of them were assaulted, which blows your bullshit about a country mile out of the water.
How to say you didn't watch the trial or read any transcript without saying it; Lathrop outdoes himself.
What did he think was going to happen, going out dressed like that?
I don't think the left wants to open the can of worms that chaos tourists should be jailed.
Tourists are traveling for leisure; The rioters are more like chaos professionals, not tourists.
That's an awfully selective reading of the case, which also says
So, sure. The jury got the decision right under the law. That doesn't make Rittenhouse a good person or absolve him of a good amount of the responsibility for the deaths of two people.
Which jury are you talking about? The jury in the article above (and in your quote) did NOT get the decision right under the law. That's why their decision was overturned on appeal (the same appeal that's the source of your quote).
You are correct that a not-guilty verdict does not make someone a good person - but it does say that you can't legitimately use the case as evidence that they are a bad person.
Sorry, I acknowledge that my use of "the jury" is confusing put next to the quote.
I mean that the Rittenhouse jury came to the right outcome--Rittenhouse was defending himself in a place he had the right to be. Having said, that it was both dumb for him to be there and ethically wrong to put himself and others in a context where violence and death was more likely. (And yes, it was ethically wrong for, e.g., Rosenbaum to charge at him too. Two wrongs still don't make a right, even after all these years.)
"wrong to put himself and others in a context where violence and death was more likely."
Rioters were already burning the businesses of innocent (mostly minority) owners before Rittenhouse came to help defend some of those business. It was already a context where violence and death were more likely. The only person Rittenhouse put into that context was himself.
Note: The specific business that Rittenhouse was helping to defend on day he was forced to defend himself was black owned.
Of course, Rittenhouse left the business he was supposedly defending before any of the shooting began.
You'd have a much better argument if he'd stayed there and rioters showed up and that was the trigger for the violence. Instead, Rittenhouse intentionally put himself into the middle of a dangerous situation just as Bristol did.
How dare Kyle put out Rosenbaum's beautiful dumpster fire before he could detonate that gas station?
That is an interesting thing to claim was ethically wrong.
He left for good reason, as perlhaqr said, and the police refused to let him go back to safety with the people he had previously been with. The police compelled Rittenhouse to go off by himself after putting out that fire.
or absolve him of a good amount of the responsibility for the deaths of two people.
Sure. He's responsible to the extent that he used deadly force to defend himself against multiple unprovoked and unjustified assaults...any one of which it was reasonable of him to assume could have resulted in his death or severe bodily injury to himself...rather than simple "taking a beating" like the prosecution theorized was his duty. But other than that....no, he has no moral, legal or any other kind of responsibility for the choices those individuals made to engage in violent behavior against someone who was doing nothing at all to them or anyone else.
Did I miss something in the story? If the defendant was threatened, and saw that the fellow who threatened him was in a certain café, why didn't the defendant just call the police and report the threat and also report the whereabouts of the threatening person?
(Not Jesus, not Buddha, not Hercules; Sheriff Buford Pusser, or Dirty Harry.)
"and saw that the fellow who threatened him was in a certain café"
Which was not actually established until he was accosted.
Dunno what was "established", but the State claimed that he went there b/c the threatening person "and Johnson" were there. If he went there unawares and was attacked, as he seems to have claimed and the jury was not convinced, then that would be valid but legally uninteresting self-defense. What makes the case interestuing and appeal-worthy is the question of whether he had an obligation to not go in the cafe if he knew Skogerson was there.
question of whether he had an obligation to not go in the cafe if he knew Skogerson was there
The conflict is the jury instruction. The orders the State, gives the jury. The Judge told the jury, in effect, the shooter is barred from entering any place the victim was, or go near the victim. The burden of law is on the shooter, not the person that made the threat.
To me this sounds a lot like a hecklers veto. The aggressor, all of a sudden, in charge of another persons constitutional rights. Its a citizens restraining order. All you have to do is threaten someone, if they show up, you are the person in charge, because the other person cant be present and is legally(according to the Jury instructions) required to retreat, or restrict their own movement.
State claimed that the defendant was the aggressor because he armed himself and went to where the victim was.
Arming yourself is a protected right, as is freedom of movement.
Not sure where the state finds to power to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens and force to adhere to the teaching of Buddha.
I guess you missed the part where the common law had generally required the accused to prove self defense by a preponderance of the evidence, evidently everywhere at the time of the Founding. The Constitution should not be interpreted as forcing a change in generally accepted practices unknown to everyone agreeing to it.
Yes, the story is that the common, judge made law had placed a heavy burden on anyone claiming self defense, and the legislatures had decided this was wrong, and enacted the opposite rule into law.
The rule didn't change due to the Constitution, but due to legislative actions.
But this decision was that neither the court nor the Constitution required Bristol to refrain from going to the cafe, even knowing Skogerson was there, and the Wyoming legislature had said nothing about it at the time.
This is an issue of what substantively counts as self defense, not who bears the burden of establishing or disproving it.
"why didn't the defendant just call the police and report the threat and also report the whereabouts of the threatening person?"
Because the incident at issue happened in 1938 and cell phones were more than 50 years away?
Did I miss something in the story?
Yes, several things...not the least of which being the defendant's assertion that he didn't know the decedent was in the cafe when he went there.
I don't usually think of 1938 as the year for courageously standing up to bullies.
You can “stand up”, or do the smart thing, which is what Chamberlain did. Britain was not ready. Germany was. In fact Chamberlain put one over on Hitler, who wanted nothing more than to invade the Sudetenland (which wanted to join the Reich) at the head of his troops. Instead Chamberlain took the wind out of his sails by unexpectedly agreeing to everything. Hitler went back to Berlin highly disappointed, particularly when he saw Chamberlain internationally lauded. This is according to Speer, and also John Toland, whose 1969 biography relied heavily on eyewitnesses.
Fake history. Germany was not ready for anything in 1938, certainly not taking on France. The idea that it was anything other than a victory for Hitler is lunacy.
I'm not sure the people of Poland, especially the Jewish population, would agree that in the longer term, it was a "smart move" to give him the Sudetenland.
On the other hand, Poland got a piece.
Hitler also got most of the Czech border fortifications, designed to delay an invasion until the army could be mobilized, making the later subjugation of Czechoslovakia easier.
As many have pointed out, Germany wasn't really ready in 1938 either.
The Czechs alone had 19 active and 11 reserve divisions in 1938. A total of 31 divisions. Germany only had 37 active divisions total. The Czechs were in a position to hold off Germany for a time, while the Allies (Poland, France, Britain) put something together to oppose them.
But taking Czechia was a major coup for Germany. It had masses of gold reserves that helped fund Germany's war. Germany would take the Czech tanks, and directly use them in its early panzer divisions. And the Czech arms industry was quite large, directly arming a large number of German soldiers. And...it was all taken intact.
It's true, the British army wasn't ready for combat in 1938. But it wasn't really effective in 1940 either. Meanwhile, with Britain and France in its corner, Czechoslovakia wouldn't have surrendered. and the straight transfer of arms and money wouldn't have occurred. And the British Navy could start its blockade of Germany a year earlier.
That’s ridiculous, because the Czechs had a well equipped army of 1.5 million troops, a mountain barrier for a lot of the border. While they couldn’t have taken on the Germans alone, the Poles and France mobilizing their armies, and the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact wasn’t signed until 1939, so they couldn’t ignore the Russians either.
Whatever the benefit of not fighting then, throwing away the Czech army cancelled that x10.
It's worse than that. Not only was the Czech army lost, but all the arms they had were straight out transferred to the Germans.
You can “stand up”, or do the smart thing, which is what Chamberlain did.
You've made some mind-numbingly asinine assertions over the years here, but you might have outdone yourself with that one.
He definitely ran the idiocy throttle out to the stops and went plaid, here. It's kind of impressive.
As with many (most?), criminal cases, intent is a key factor.
If Bristol made statements (or if someone told him) that he knows/heard that Skogerson was at the restaurant and Bristol then decided to go there, that could show some grounds of intent to face Skogerson - as opposed someone else saying, "Hey let's get a bite to eat," and Skogerson went along with the group.
"as opposed someone else saying, "Hey let's get a bite to eat," and Skogerson went along with the group."
The linked case has the facts: "Robinson (bartender) returned to the barroom and began to check the cash receipts for the day. After watching him for a few minutes, Bristol (defendant) proposed to go home. He was invited by Robinson, "stick around a few minutes and we'll go over to the Manhattan (restaurant where Deceased had gone) and have a bite to eat." Robinson, however, discovered a shortage in his cash, and, Bristol desiring to leave, the bartender told him to "go over to the Manhattan and wait for me there."
Also "The defendant at the time of the killing was 36 years of age, weighing 140 pounds....Skogerson (deceased) is described as being a large man, six feet and two or three inches in height, weighing 200 pounds or more, and "well muscled." He was evidently in a quarrelsome stage of near-drunkenness."
There is also testimony from other witnesses about the details of Skogerson's attack on Bristol in the restaurant.
yes. I cant see how the defendant can be stripped of his right to enter the cafe, or defend himself.
I can see myself walking in to the cafe if the deceased was present, just to show him his threats were bluster. I have the right to be there, and they deceased is the one on the wrong side of the law.
I enjoyed the writing in the court’s opinion. I also note that Mr. Rittenhouse ran away from, or was ambushed by, those he fired at. And in one instance he was struck with an object that could have been used to kill him, while in another he held his fire until the attacker advanced on him while pointing a weapon. By the way, had Grosskreutz shot Rittenhouse, it might well have been reasonable to conclude he had believed he was seeking to stop a killer, and that he acted in self defense.
By the way, had Grosskreutz shot Rittenhouse, it might well have been reasonable to conclude he had believed he was seeking to stop a killer, and that he acted in self defense.
That might seem reasonable to someone with the IQ of a turnip and/or no knowledge at all of the fact of the case, but not to anyone else. Grosskreutz is seen and heard on video running alongside and talking to Rittenhouse as the latter ran toward the police barricade to try and turn himself in. Rittenhouse never made any move....aggressive or otherwise...toward anyone at that time until after he went to the ground and was repeatedly assaulted by others who were also chasing Rittenhouse. There would have been absolutely ZERO grounds for any claim of self-defense on Grosskreutz's part had he shot Rittenhouse.
Aside from everything else about the Arbury case, the "too many niggers in the courtroom" defense strikes me as...risky.
That likely would depend on the state or perhaps county.
In an educated, modern, successful, reasoning community, it would be more than risky. In a deplorable, can't-keep-up backwater . . . might be the golden ticket.
Buddha, Christ, and Hercules Walk Into a Bar, in 1938 Wyoming … and Solomon says, "hold my beer."
Solomon was for drinking, but in moderation:
Who has woe?
Who has sorrow?
Who has contentions?
Who has complaints?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
Those who linger long at the wine,
Those who go in search of mixed wine.
Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it swirls around smoothly;
At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper.
Your eyes will see strange things,
And your heart will utter perverse things.
Yes, you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
Or like one who lies at the top of the mast, saying:
“They have struck me, but I was not hurt;
They have beaten me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake, that I may seek another drink?”
Proverbs 23:29-35 (NKJV)
Jesus could beat Buddha in a bar brawl because Buddha was fat, while Jesus did Pilates exercises.
Jesus saves...but Moses invests.