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Court Rejects Negligence Lawsuit Against Armslist Over Murder Using Gun Bought in Armslist-Facilitated Transaction
The court takes a narrow view of 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1), but rejects liability as a matter of state law: “public policy [with regard to how gun sales can be arranged] is more properly determined by the peoples’ elected representatives rather than by the courts.”
From Judge William Griesbach's opinion Tuesday in Webber v. Armslist LLC (E.D. Wisc.):
Plaintiff Richard Webber, as special administrator for the estate of his daughter, Sara Schmidt, filed this diversity action against Defendants Armslist LLC and Jonathan Gibbon….
Armslist is an online marketplace for guns. Generally, only licensed firearm dealers, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), may sell firearms but only on the condition that various safeguards be taken, such as the completion of a background check on the purchaser and completion of a record of sale. However, "occasional" gun sales by private, non-FFL sellers may be transacted without those federal requirements. Armslist allegedly facilitates these occasional sales between private parties and those who would otherwise be disqualified from owning a firearm under federal or state law. Plaintiff alleges that Armslist "chose to design and build Armslist.com to allow, enable and assist illegal gun buyers and sellers to buy and sell guns" without investigation into whether purchasers were eligible to purchase a firearm.
As a result of Armslist's design decisions and business practices, Plaintiff alleges, Schmidt's estranged husband, who was prohibited from owning a firearm …, was able to purchase a firearm from a private seller who listed a firearm for purchase on Armslist.com. Shortly thereafter, Schmidt's estranged husband used the firearm he purchased from the private seller to fatally shoot Schmidt after Schmidt had arrived at her mother's house to drop off her three children. Schmidt's estranged husband then committed suicide in the backyard of the house. Plaintiff alleges that, but for Armslist's failure to enact adequate safeguards, and but for Armslist's conscious decision to design Armslist.com in an irresponsible, unreasonable, and unlawful manner, Sara Schmidt's estranged husband would not have been able to purchase the firearm that he used to kill her.
The court rejected Armslist's 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1) defense:
While courts have grappled with interpreting § 230, the prevailing view among the Courts of Appeals is that § 230(c)(1) "provides broad immunity from liability for unlawful third-party content." Applying this broad interpretation, a divided Wisconsin Supreme Court held in Daniel v. Armslist, LLC, that § 230 of the CDA barred claims against Armslist for the death of a woman killed in a mass shooting in Brookfield, Wisconsin by a perpetrator who illegally purchased the gun he used from a private seller he found on Armslist's website. Of course, the Wisconsin Supreme Court's interpretation of federal law is not binding on this Court.
While other circuits have granted blanket protection under § 230, the Seventh Circuit, whose decisions are binding on the Court, appears to have been less willing to do so. Indeed, the Seventh Circuit has said that § 230(c)(1) plays a limited role, noting that it merely "limits who may be called the publisher [or speaker] of information that appears online," and while that "might matter to liability for defamation, obscenity, or copyright infringement," that does not necessarily mean it will have a role to play in all cases….
The Seventh Circuit is not alone in its reservations against construing § 230 so broadly. In a statement agreeing with the Supreme Court's decision to deny a writ of certiorari for a Ninth Circuit case denying immunity under § 230 to an internet service provider alleged to have engaged in anti-competitive behavior, Justice Thomas highlighted the issue of "whether the text of this increasingly important statute aligns with the current state of immunity enjoyed by Internet platforms." Malwarebytes, Inc. v. Enigma Software Grp. USA, LLC (2020) (Statement by Thomas, J.). Justice Thomas observed that "courts have relied on policy and purpose arguments to grant sweeping protection to Internet platforms," arguably extending § 230 immunity "'far beyond anything that plausibly could have been intended by Congress.'" Justice Thomas questioned various expansions of § 230 immunity, but most pertinent to the case at hand, he specifically questioned the grant of immunity against claims, like this one, that rested on "alleged product design flaws—that is, the defendant's own misconduct." …
Plaintiff seeks to hold Defendants liable for their "role in developing or co-developing [their] own content." Specifically, Plaintiff faults Defendants for failing to prohibit criminals from accessing or buying firearms through Armslist.com; actively encouraging, assisting, and facilitating illegal firearms transactions through their various design decisions; failing to require greater details from users, such as providing credit-card verified evidence of users' identities; failing to require that sellers certify under oath that they are legal purchasers; and failing to provide regularly updated information regarding applicable firearms laws to its users, among many other things. In essence, the complaint "focuses primarily on Armslist's own conduct in creating the high-risk gun market and its dangerous features," not on the post in question. This type of claim, then, does not seek to treat Defendants as the "publisher or speaker" of the post that led to Schmidt's killer obtaining a firearm; rather, it seeks to hold Defendants liable for their own misconduct in negligently and recklessly creating a service that facilitates the illegal sale of firearms. For these reasons, the Court concludes that § 230 does not immunize Defendants from liability in this case.
Nonetheless, the court concluded that Armslist was immune under Wisconsin law, among other things on the following grounds:
Under Wisconsin law, even when a negligence action is properly pled and all of the elements of the cause of action met, liability may be limited as a matter of law where considerations of public policy require dismissal of the claim and relieve the defendant of liability in a particular case. Wisconsin courts have identified six factors that may operate to preclude liability:
(1) the injury is too remote from the negligence; or (2) the injury is too wholly out of proportion to the culpability of the negligent tortfeasor; or (3) in retrospect it appears too highly extraordinary that the negligence should have brought about the harm; or (4) because allowance of recovery would place too unreasonable a burden on the negligent tortfeasor; or (5) because allowance of recovery would be too likely to open the way for fraudulent claims; or (6) allowance for recovery would enter a field that has no sensible or just stopping point….
In Daniel, the Wisconsin Supreme Court found the plaintiff's claims against Armslist were barred under the CDA and thus did not reach the question of whether the complaint otherwise stated a claim of negligence…. Here, the Court concludes that Wisconsin's public policy bars this suit.
Because the injury Plaintiff suffered is too remote from and out of proportion to Defendants' conduct and allowing recovery in this case would place an unreasonable a burden on Defendants. Although intentional criminal acts "are not a superseding cause per se," "acts that are either criminal or intentionally tortious … are more likely to be adjudged superseding causes than merely negligent acts." In this case, after purchasing a firearm from a private party based on an advertisement he saw on Armslist.com, Schmidt's killer used the gun to commit an abhorrent and tragic crime.
Whatever role Defendants may have played prior to Schmidt's tragic murder, the Court concludes that the conscious, pre-meditated decisions and actions of Schmidt's killer served as a superseding cause of Plaintiff's injury. True, Defendants may have owned and operated the website used by Schmidt's killer to obtain the firearm utilized in Schmidt's murder, but lawfully providing a forum for individuals to engage others interested in buying and selling firearms is simply too far removed from and out of proportion to the criminal act committed by Schmidt's killer. "[S]imply enabling consumers to use a legal service is far removed from encouraging them to commit an illegal act."
Imposing civil liability on Defendants for Schmidt's murder is also out of proportion to the lawful conduct in which they engaged and would likely destroy their business. Indeed, the latter might be Plaintiff's goal. This case, and many like it, represent a nationwide effort to use litigation as a way of circumventing the legislative process in the area of gun control. See Timothy D. Lytton, Lawsuits Against The Gun Industry: A Comparative Institutional Analysis, 32 Conn. L. Rev. 1247 (2000). But determining public policy based on one tragic set of circumstances is not the proper function of courts or juries.
To be sure, there may be good reasons to prohibit websites, such as Armslist, that connect private gun sellers with gun buyers, some of whom are intent on violating federal and state laws prohibiting certain individuals from owning or possessing guns. In a government such as ours, however, public policy is more properly determined by the peoples' elected representatives rather than by the courts. The legislative process allows a full airing of all possible reasons both for and against a proposed policy and the potential consequences of adopting it. A single lawsuit focused on the tragic loss of a young woman's life does not….
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Mayve gun dealers should seek to enjoin state and federal judges from even hearing these types of cases.
Well, there's the Lawful Commerce act, which does prohibit this type of lawsuit.
It was written, "To protect the right, under the First Amendment to the Constitution, of manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and importers of firearms or ammunition products, and trade associations, to speak freely, to assemble peaceably, and to petition the Government for a redress of their grievances."
But Armslist doesn't manufacture or sell anything, and isn't a trade association. I guess it didn't occur to the authors that a simple board for helping sellers and buyers meet, similar to Craigslist, (Armslist is, IIRC, just a response to Craigslist deciding not to permit guns to be listed.) might be targeted.
Perhaps an amendment is in order.
"To be sure, there may be good reasons to prohibit websites, such as Armslist, that connect private gun sellers with gun buyers, some of whom are intent on violating federal and state laws prohibiting certain individuals from owning or possessing guns."
I don't think there can ever, legally, be said to be good reasons for violating the 1st amendment. Speech and publishing facilitating lawful conduct doesn't lose it's 1st amendment protection just because bad actors might take advantage of it to facilitate criminal conduct. Your gas station can advertise gasoline, a website could provide a map of gas stations, despite the certain knowledge that some (small) fraction of readers would be shopping for gasoline in order to commit arson.
This is no different.
Except that the First Amendment isn’t absolute either. It doesn’t protect child pornography, for example, or extortion, or true threats, or defamation, or publishing nuclear launch codes, even though all of those things are pretty clearly speech. The idea that the Second Amendment is absolute should fare no better. Other people have rights too.
Yes, but those are things which themselves are unlawful and bad and hence outside the 1st Amendment protection.
I don't think the 1st Amendment would permit a state to shut down news stands on the theory that some of them might sell pornography illegally when the authorities are not looking.
The First Amendment would absolutely not prevent a newsstand that actually did sell child pornography from being civilly sued by the child victim, and that's a far closer analogy to what we're talking about here. This business of insulating gun manufacturers and sellers from any liability whatsoever essentially means that they're not even being held to the same standards of negligence as the manufacturers and sellers of any other product.
I think there's a middle ground here. I don't think people who hate guns should be able to sue gun manufacturers and sellers out of existence. At the same time, if in a specific case there were steps that could have been taken that would have averted a tragedy, gun manufacturers and sellers should not get a free pass because Second Amendment. If I'm looking to buy enough dynamite to level Manhattan, the manufacturer and seller would certainly be expected to ask questions before they made the sale. Why should guns be any different?
That's not even close to the analogy here. Selling child pornography is illegal for everyone. Selling guns without extensive background checks is illegal if done by an established gun store but entirely legal between private buyers and sellers. Can private buyers and sellers nevertheless do illegal things? Of course they can. But that doesn't make the marketplace suddenly liable for their misdeeds.
The only thing true in your comment is that firearms manufacturers are not being held to the standards of negligence of any other manufacturers and sellers - they are routinely held to far higher standards. Standards that would be obviously unacceptable in the context of any other right.
Standards that would be obviously unacceptable in the context of any other right.
My local garden store guy—not a chain store, just his little private greenhouse business, mind you—won't sell fertilizer. Too much paperwork and regulation.
The notion is bunk that gun sellers and buyers are controlled in ways incommensurate with other similarly publicly hazardous activities. There aren't any federal rules against recording on government computers data about fertilizer purchasers.
See how much regulation you run into if you decide to set up a school bus company.
More generally, gun-overreach is out of hand. For instance, the push from pro-gun advocates to force unbounded gun entitlement into places where gun regulations are favored, and where regulations and local norms have proved somewhat successful at reducing gun prevalence and gun violence. That pressure is politically unwise. I can't understand why anyone except a fanatic would think of doing it.
The simplest analogy, and it's a very close one is: Suppose somebody sells some nitrate fertilizer on Craigslist. The buyer shows up and says, "By the way, I'm going to use this to make a pipe bomb. Any tips on how to do that?" The seller goes ahead with the sale.
Is Craigslist liable? Not unless the add on Craigslist said "For sale: Nitrate fertilizer perfect for pipe bombs".
It's the same thing here. Could somebody selling a gun on Armslist complete an illegal sale? Sure. How would Armslist know? Why should Armslist presume a facially legal add is really intended to facilitate an illegal sale? You'd never do that for any other product.
More generally, abortion-overreach is out of hand. For instance, the push from pro-abortion advocates to force unbounded abortion entitlement into places where abortion regulations are favored, and where regulations and local norms have proved somewhat successful at reducing abortion prevalence and abortion violence. That pressure is politically unwise. I can't understand why anyone except a fanatic would think of doing it.
I'm sure you're okay with my edits to your comment above, right?
Also, can you please show me the places in the US where regulations have reduced gun violence?
Yes, Rossami, you can always find how two things are different if you ignore that that specific difference isn't why I was making the analogy and that the analogy makes a different point altogether.
Stephen has already pointed out that your claim that gun manufacturers and sellers are held to higher standards is nonsense so I won't repeat what he said. I will say, though, that I think they should be held to the same standard as everyone else -- neither higher nor lower. If they're negligent in a particular transaction, they should be sued.
"I will say, though, that I think they should be held to the same standard as everyone else -- neither higher nor lower."
You certainly shouldn't be able to sue Ford because some drunk drove a Ford drunk.
And you shouldn't be able to sue the Thrifty Nickel because the drunk bought the Ford from an ad there.
If the person buying the Ford has a suspended license because of six DWI convictions, then whomever knew or should have known that would have liability, and who knew or should have known that would be is a question of fact for the jury. You're trying to take it away from the jury altogether.
Right, and in this case that somebody isn't Armslist.
"should have known that would have liability, and who ... should have known that would be is a question of fact for the jury."
I want to be sure I accurately understand your position.
Someone puts an ad in the Thrifty Nickel/Craigslist/WaPo that reads "For sale: 1998 Honda Civic 4 door, runs good, 228k miles, new tires, $500 firm". The buyer turns out to be an escaped prisoner who was serving time for Vehicular Homicide. All the seller checks is that the buyer has $500.
Your view is that a jury, rather than the legislature, should decide whether The Thrifty Nickel/Craigslist/WaPo is liable?
Suppose I have a tree cut down, leave the wood in the yard, and post on Craigslist 'Free Wood, You Haul'. Someone I don't even meet hauls it away for firewood, and uses one of the chunks to bludgeon someone to death. You view is that a jury could legitimately decide Craigslist is liable?
(I'm not sure how many old vehicle sales you do, but IMHE the buyer wants to see the title and the seller wants to see the money. I've never have a seller inquire into my driving history. YMMV)
But those types of lawsuits aren't going to get filed because no serious person thinks that Thrifty Nickel has any liability on those facts, and if someone did file such a lawsuit it would have a short life.
If these lawsuits against gun manufacturers and sellers are as frivolous as you and others here are suggesting, then they, too, will have a short life. And the solution to any actual problem is to make it easier to get sanctions for frivolous lawsuits, not to say that in cases in which a reasonable inquiry would have prevented a tragedy can't be filed either.
"If these lawsuits against gun manufacturers and sellers are as frivolous as you and others here are suggesting, then they, too, will have a short life."
The problem was, in the actual history of the PLCAA, was that well heeled organizations made it clear that they had the funds and the will to keep meritless suits alive with the intention of running various gun related companies into bankruptcy. These are by and large much smaller companies than e.g. auto companies, so their plan had a chance of success. Stopping that was the motivation behind the PLCAA.
Whatever kind of firearms policy one prefers, bankrupting gun companies with meritless suits isn't the right way to go about. It's an undemocratic way for large donors to do things they can't get the voters to agree with, and the voters stopped it.
They're often more frivolous than that. They are the equivalent of suing the auto manufacturer because the manufacturer ran ads on TV showing people driving recklessly. Thereby appealing to people who want to drive recklessly.
And, no, lawsuits never have a short life no matter how frivolous.
"But those types of lawsuits aren't going to get filed because no serious person thinks that Thrifty Nickel has any liability on those facts,"
No serious person thinks Armslist has any liability on the facts. You just have an animus against gun ownership, and this is a convenient way to express that.
No. PLCAA allows the victim to sue the gun seller if the gun seller knew, or should have known, that the gun buyer presented a risk profile similar to the drunk driving car buyer.
And, critically, Armslist is not the seller. All they sold was advertising space.
Nothing but strawman arguments and invalid comparisons from both of you. Are there regulations on school bus manufacturers? Of course there are - and precisely none of them apply liability on the manufacturer for illegal use of their product. You cannot, for example, sue the manufacturer when the bus driver intentionally drives through a crowd of people or uses it to commit suicide. Yet that is precisely the standard that you two keep claiming gun manufacturers should be held to.
Fertilizer is regulated on the mostly-mistaken theory that it is a "weapon" and is therefore as undeserving of constitutional protection as you want to make firearms.
Let's go for some actually-relevant comparisons. In your view:
- is it constitutional to require registration of social media account?
- would it be constitutional to impose a 10-day waiting period before allowing the purchase of a printing press?
- is it just to sue the pencil manufacturer because someone used it to write a libelous letter?
- should you have to pay for a license in order to be free from unreasonable search and seizure?
IF a gun manufacturer is negligent, they can be sued. Your claims that they get special treatment are simply false. The reason those suits fail is because the gun manufacturers were not negligent.
The Lawful Commerce Act merely protects them from frivolous lawsuits - a protection that all of us need, in my opinion. But Congress passed that law because politically-motivated frivolous lawsuits were far more prevalent against gun manufacturers than, for example, the lawsuits against the makers of Froot Loops for not having any actual fruit in their cereal.
If the manufacturer knew or should have known that the person buying its bus has a suspended license for DWI, it may very well have liability; more facts are needed.
But these are questions of fact for a jury, and you want to keep it away from the jury altogether.
Does that rule exist for vehicle manufacturers today? No. It doesn't even exist for dealerships who are actually part of the sale to the customer. It does not matter how many DUI convictions the person has, what's illegal is the misuse of the product, not ownership. You are continuing to invent rules against guns that simply do not exist in any other context.
This does not need to go to a jury because, as a matter of law, there is no liability.
Knew, sure. "or should have known"?
Are we talking legal obligation to inquire? Or your demanding that they go beyond the law and start hiring private eyes to check out potential customers?
Do you consider it relevant that gun manufactures do not sell to the public?
There is a middle man between gun manufacturers and civilian end-users. Even if your theory of "should have known" was accurate, it doesn't apply to gun manufacturers.
Toranth, it's relevant but it may or may not be dispositive; more facts are needed and it's ultimately a question of fact for a jury. If you are selling a product that kills tens of thousands of people a year, then do you have a duty to ensure that the retail seller has safety checks in place? I once represented a chemical manufacturing company, and I can assure you that they absolutely ensure that retail sellers don't sell cyanide to anyone who walks in the door. If you sell retail chemicals, a manufacturer will not sell to you without knowing what protocols you have in place to make it difficult for someone to use your product to bump off his mother in law, and that's true even with cyanide having multiple legitimate commercial uses. The more potential for abuse and the more dangerous a product is, the more important it becomes for everybody up and down the supply chain to be a bit cautious.
None of which means that someone who's determined to get cyanide to bump off his mother in law won't ultimately find a way; the manufacturers and retail sellers just don't make it easy.
No, Krychek, it actually IS dispositive.
Gun manufacturers can only sell to licensed gun retailers.
And I suspect the state and federal governments do a lot more to assure that FFL holders are complying with the law than anyone does with retail of substances like cyanide.
If the state and federal governments approve someone to buy and sell guns, and they do not explicitly give you a reason to suspect they are going to commit a crime with it (including ITAR violations as well a boring-ol' murder-stuff), then why would the manufacturer be liable?
"This business of insulating gun manufacturers and sellers from any liability whatsoever essentially means that they're not even being held to the same standards of negligence as the manufacturers and sellers of any other product."
Lawful Commerce Act does not affect liability for defective products.
Defective product is not the only theory under which someone can be sued for negligence.
Yes, there's also negligent marketing, I suppose, which is utterly inapplicable to an industry that only sells through regulated, licensed dealers, and not direct to the public.
Anti-gunners have attempted negligence lawsuits on the basis that "You should have known that some fraction of the guns you manufacture would end up in the hands of criminals!". And, in public statements, admitted that the lawsuits weren't actually expected to win in court, but only to bankrupt the manufacturers with litigation costs.
But we don't abolish civil lawsuits altogether because some people file frivolous lawsuits. Maybe we tighten up the sanctions rule so that people who bring lawsuits in bad faith can more easily be sanctioned. But the answer should not be that people who really have been injured through the negligence of others are just out of luck.
Nobody is talking about abolishing civil lawsuits altogether, even against gun manufacturers. What got abolished was a very specific form of frivolous lawsuit aimed at imposing litigation costs on innocent parties.
I will conceded I'd have preferred broader legislation anticipating similar abusive lawsuits against other categories of products.
PLCAA¹ does not insulate them "from any liability whatsoever." It insulates them from liability for the criminal acts of other people, when they themselves did nothing wrong. They can be sued for negligent entrustment. They can be sued — like the manufacturers of other products — for defects in the guns they make. In other words, they're being treated like the manufacturers and sellers of other products. You can't sue Louisville Slugger because someone beat you up with a baseball bat. You can't sue Ford because someone deliberately ran you over with his car.
¹I assume that's what your reference is to, since the CDA wouldn't apply to manufacturers in the first place.
At first blush, using §230 as a defense in this case seems like a stretch. Despite that, the court's reasoning in rejecting §230 seems even more strained. When talking about "hold[ing] Defendants liable for their own misconduct", the court seems to be assuming the plaintiff's allegations that there actually was any misconduct. Based on the wording used, I see no misconduct at all. The website worked as designed, facilitating purchases between private buyers and sellers to the standards legally required for private buyers and sellers.
Prof. Volokh,
This is off topic, but there didn’t seem to be a Thursday open thread. What did you think of the oral arguments in Ramirez v Collier the other day? It seems to be a large departure from typical conservative SCOTUS jurisprudence to question the sincerity of a religious freedom claim. I was surprised not to see anyone here commenting on that case.
Isn't it backwards to consider federal pre-emption before one considers the claim under state law? If the claim is meritless under state law, there is nothing to pre-empt.
I know there is a doctrine of Constitutional avoidance -- courts do not decide Constituional questions if they can decide the case based on non-Constitutional law. Anyone know of something similar when it comes to federal pre-emption of state law?
Did any of the victims families ever sue Virginia Tech? Didn't VT's medical department fail to report the shooter's mental state as required by law? This would have brought him to the attention of the people who compile the data for the "background check" and would have prevented him from purchasing the weapons that he used.
They sued VT over the college's failure to warn students about a shooter on campus. All those suits lost, though. I'm not aware of a specific suit over failure to report the shooter's mental health issues.
I'm a practicing Wisconsin lawyer. That state law test is basically just a squishy safety outlet for judges to develop the common law to prohibit new types of negligence claims. Essentially it's a framework for analyzing new negligence causes of action, ostensibly to prevent courts from completely making it up as they go along. Kind of weird for a federal judge to be utilizing it.
"Kind of weird for a federal judge to be utilizing it."
Opinion says its a "diversity action" so the federal judge is applying Wisconsin law.
Federal judges sitting in diversity actions tend to be very circumspect about applying state law in novel cases. It's not their role to help develop the state's common law.
From my read of the opinion, I think the judge is being a little two-faced: on the one hand, he says its not for the courts to decide a state's public policy, but on the other hand, he appears to use almost exclusively public policy justifications to determine the Plaintiffs fail to state a claim. And he does so without any citation to a state case that supports his assertions regarding Wisconsin's public policy on the discrete issue presented by this case.
The rest of the opinion is quite good and well-reasoned, but this section reads like something you'd see from a state court judge, both in the level of reasoning and in the approach to public policy.
Like tkamenick says, it's weird.
Completely agree. See my comment below.
Can we also sue Facebook, Twitter, and so forth for negligently designing a platform that permits people to share tortious words?
I would have certified this case to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. It is not the role of federal courts to guess at state’s public policy. And here the decision reads largely like a policy argument, it doesn’t really address Wisconsin law or Wisconsin court decisions.
I would have asked the Wisconsin Supreme Court to answer the state-law question it left open when it held that state tort law on the issue was preempted by Section 230.
And this is so even though I might normally agree with the 7th Circuit so far as the role-of-the-courts policy issues are concerned. However, the Wisconsin courts, which have conmon-law powers that federal courts do not, could decide to disagree and create new state tort law over a single case notwithstanding the 7th Circuit panel’s policy decisions.
The question is theirs to decide. They should be given the opportunity to decide it. This would be proper respect for the limited role of FEDERAL courts.
They should have sued Al Gore for inventing the internet. Without it there is no Armslist.