The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Second Amendment vs. the Seventh Amendment: Substantive vs. Procedural Rights; Part 1: Similarities and Differences
Although the affinities between the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms and the Seventh Amendment right to civil jury trial seem strong, there are crucial differences. The first concerns individual accountability and the ability to understand responsibilities; the second concerns the distinction between substantive rights and procedural rights.
A few years ago, I mentioned to Eugene Volokh that I'm a firm supporter of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, but believe the Seventh Amendment right to civil jury trial should be abolished. He was surprised; the amendments seemed to him to have strong affinities. And so they do. But I believe the differences conquer the similarities. With Eugene's usual curiosity, he suggested I write about why. Who can resist Eugene's enthusiasm? I explained the differences, in a piece I just published, The Resilience of Substantive Rights and the False Hope of Procedural Rights: The Case of the Second Amendment and the Seventh Amendment, 116 Northwestern Law Review 275 (2021). This series of five posts lays out my argument. It goes beyond comparison of these two rights, and makes broader claims about the differences between substantive and procedural rights.
We'll start with the similarities. Both the right to keep and bear arms and the right to civil jury trial potentially empower ordinary citizens. Both could act as a check on elites. With eloquence and vigor, Akhil Amar illuminated the populist origins of these rights in his books The Bill of Rights: Creation and Reconstruction (1998) and America's Constitution: A Biography (2005). In a 2013 article, Darrell Miller recommended parallel interpretation of the two amendments, arguing that Seventh Amendment jurisprudence can be a model for crafting a test for the Second Amendment. (Darrell A.H. Miller, Text, History, and Tradition: What the Seventh Amendment Can Teach Us About the Second, 122 Yale L.J. 852 (2013).)
But there are crucial differences between these rights. I focus on two of them. The first is relatively straightforward—it concerns individual accountability, or the lack thereof, and the ability to understand responsibilities. Gun owners and users have direct individual liability for their actions. They are subject to criminal prosecution and civil liability for their behavior. This individual liability has a way of concentrating the mind. It seems to encourage decent behavior; holders of carry permits, in particular, are remarkably law-abiding. They may even be more law-abiding than police officers. Furthermore, their responsibilities are relatively easy for ordinary persons to understand.
In contrast, by design civil jurors lack individual responsibility. And they often have trouble understanding judicial instructions and complicated scientific or mathematical evidence. The result is unpredictable and wayward verdicts. These drawbacks are why the right to a civil jury trial was so controversial at the time of the founding. Alexander Hamilton's critique of the civil jury in Federalist No. 83 is little known, but deserves more attention. He and other founders thought that civil juries could not handle more complicated disputes. Hamilton was afraid that a constitutional right to civil jury trial would hobble the legislature in reforming the civil justice system.
The second difference is more complicated. It has to do with the distinction between a substantive right and a procedural right. Substantive rights, I hope to show, are potentially more durable and effective than detailed procedural rights. There is a solid core to a substantive right that is amenable to meaningful interpretation.
On the other hand, specific procedural rights are flimsy. The meaning of a particular procedure or legal institution wholly depends on the surrounding legal system. When other parts of the legal system change, the significance of that procedure or legal institution can change dramatically—it can essentially be nullified, even though nominally, it still exists. Worse, procedural rights cause positive harm to the legal system by requiring clumsy work-arounds for problems and thwarting more direct solutions.
In the past few decades, the contrast between the Second and the Seventh Amendments has been striking. The right to keep and bear arms has had a remarkable resurgence, at both the popular and the judicial levels. This revival is not guaranteed to last—especially at the judicial level—but at least it can be done.
Meanwhile, the Seventh Amendment by its terms requires an originalist interpretation ("shall be preserved"), and the federal courts have indeed tried to apply a historical test. Even so, the attempt at preservation has been a failure. (See Renée Lettow Lerner, The Failure of Originalism in Preserving Constitutional Rights to Civil Jury Trial, 22 William & Mary Bill of Rights Journal 811 (2014).) Courts have developed many mechanisms to avoid civil jury trial, and litigants have fled from it by settling. As of 2020, fewer than 1% of civil cases reaching disposition in federal court are decided by jury trial. Our civil justice system today is vastly expensive to litigants, full of delays, and unpredictable. Persons of modest means are almost entirely shut out of it, or suffer grievous disadvantages. The civil justice system could be greatly improved if we were free from the constitutional constraint of the civil jury. The Seventh Amendment, as Hamilton warned, illustrates the problems of constitutionalizing specific procedural rights.
In the next post, I compare the individual accountability and ability to understand their responsibilities of gun owners and civil jurors. These differences produce markedly different results.
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"And they often have trouble understanding judicial instructions and complicated scientific or mathematical evidence."
And lawyers tend to obscure evidence, or even the reason for the case.
Several years ago I was on a jury for a civil case, and the two attorneys talked for an hour, questioned witnesses, and at the end of that time none of the jury had any idea what was going on. The judge sent us out of the room, and we told the bailiff who escorted us we couldn't understand what was going on. Apparently the judge already recognized this because, as we found out later, he censured the attorneys, brought us back, apologized for their obfuscation, and directed a verdict.
I suspect attorneys want the jury as confused as possible.
Competing experts are incredibly unhelpful for jurors. The entire point of an expert, theoretically, is to explain something the lay person can't understand on their own. But if they can't understand it on their own, almost by definition they won't be able to understand which expert is offering the correct explanation.
two good examples of jurors not being able to understand the facts or when the presentation of the data obscures the real facts.
1) toyota sudden accelertion - these cases are all where the driver punched the accelerator instead of the brake. Also should be noted that brakes will always stop the car even with the gas pedal floored.
2) George floyd trial - The prosecution never covered the actual mechanisim that caused the death, ie the build of of fluid in the lungs which prevented the exhange of oxygen through the air sacs in the lungs.
"Also should be noted that brakes will always stop the car even with the gas pedal floored"
If in good repair. Not to say that Toyota actually had a problem, it was totally the drivers' fault, but, yeah, brake trouble can compromise that guarantee.
I recall Justice Posner got around this by appointing his own experts. He then presided over all depositions of those experts to prevent attorneys from putting to much pressure on them.
Now that generated a ton of controversy and back and forth and idk if it was right, but to be honest, it seems to be the best way of getting around this problem?
That is not a good description of what an expert is supposed to do.
An expert is supposed to testify about matters in which ordinary adults are not expected to be familiar. That is very different from whether they can understand them.
Thus a good expert, who has the facts on his side, should be able to explain his findings to a jury in clear and understandable terms.
The jury will often believe the expert who is certain about his conclusions and claims his methods are perfect over the expert who acknowedges limits to the methods he uses and residual doubt.
One of them is the clearer communicater, in the sense of communicating more clarity. But which one is actually the better expert in the substantive field?
As a non-lawyer, one always wonders in cases such as this, why the lawyer for the party who has all the cards wouldn't just want to lay them on the table straightforwardly where the jury could see them.
I can understand the guy who has nothing but hands to wave, committing himself to hand waving - but why both ?
Presumably something to do with fees. I once had a tax lawyer who was astonishingly good, spoke clear English, knew his stuff and was sensible and practical. You'd call him up and ten minutes later you knew what to do. If it was really complicated he'd say he have to think about it, and then you get a nice clear memo within a couple of days. But they fired him in the end. Not enough time on the clock. I think he joined one of his clients on the in house team. Shoulda thought of that myself.
Always seemed to me that the big drawback to all jury trials is the dichotomy of trail vs deliberations. During the trial, jurors are supposed to be meek sponges, absorbing the two sides' data and arguments. During deliberations, they are supposed to suddenly turn on their intelligence and debate the merits to come to a conclusion which no outside, including judge and lawyers, are ever supposed to know the manner of.
* Give jurors a turn at questioning witnesses after direct and cross examination, even if they have to be filtered through the judge.
* Give jurors their own chance to ask more general questions, of both sides and the judge, after both sides have rested.
* Require the verdict to explain in detail every step of the jury's thinking, for every piece of evidence, all testimony: credibility, relevance, whatever, so that everybody reading the verdict can see for themselves the chains of logic. Did they misapply some law, did they misunderstand some witness or some evidence? Don't let personal animosity or bigotry remain hidden; if jurors are too bigoted to trust black witnesses, force them to confront their prejudices or disguise it, rather than just let it remain hidden.
Agreed. The problem is not that we have juries when we shouldn't. The problem is that we've crippled the juries to the point that they can't do the very things they're supposed to.
Not that long ago in history, juries routinely had the power to do the very things you're suggesting.
And the problem with fixing the problem, is that the juries were not crippled by accident. They were crippled because the rest of the legal system, run by lawyers, didn't like the fact that any legal power resided in anybody who wasn't a member of the guild, and cooperated in gutting the jury system.
Even to the point where, though juries have the legally acknowledged right to engage in nullification, judges are permitted to lie to them about that, and exclude from the jury anybody they discover knows of it.
Restoring the power of juries requires breaking the power of lawyers, and the lawyers sure as hell aren't going to help with accomplishing that.
"civil jurors lack individual responsibility. And they often have trouble understanding judicial instructions and complicated scientific or mathematical evidence"
Contrast this with your typical judge, who always faces accountability for his actions (especially if he's a federal judge). And of course the very reason judges go to law school in the first place is to master math and science.
/sarc
Judges, unlike juries, have to explain their reasoning, and can be appealed accordingly.
Is that really a safeguard for someone who was specifically trained to make the best argument for whichever side he prefers?
Ah, the lawyer's true superpower appears!
More seriously, the relative strengths and weaknesses of substantive and procedural rights seems like it would have interesting implications for the very idea of substantive due process. But I am not a lawyer -- perhaps those more familiar with the theories see a straightforward resolution of that tension.
Incentivizing people to settle rather than go to a jury trial seems like a feature not a bug.
I doubt that judges are any more accountable than juries. Worse, after decades on the bench they tend to get accustomed to their elite bubble. Judges often run around in the same circles and defense attorneys and prosecutors, I already think the system is to clubby. Eliminating jury trials would only make it more so.
There are indeed lots of downsides to jury trials, but I see it as a useful check/balance. Most (98%-99%) cases end up being pled or settled, so that fact alone suggests to me there is nothing broken here.
The 2nd amendment in fact clearly illustrates my point in fact - judges(who are often political appointees) are so clearly eager to ignore "shall not be infringed," in favor of whatever the attorney general and legislature persuade them, why should we trust them with much else?
"I doubt that judges are any more accountable than juries. Worse, after decades on the bench they tend to get accustomed to their elite bubble."
I was an expert witness in a case several years back. During my entire testimony, the judge was reading a magazine.
At least the judge wasn't in a hotel lobby.
And the thing is, so many people on this blog are old that over half of them will get the reference.
Try using that perfectly good joke on Youngstergram, nobody will get it.
i dont get it.
Ditto; but figure it's probably a Chevy Chase movie.
The artist formerly known as an unpronouncable glyph.
Only if Judges cannot be lawyers.
I trust 12 random citizens a lot more than one political appointee or politician standing for election.
Another question this conspiracy might address; what differences, if any, are there in verdicts and sentencing for elected .vs appointed judges?
I don't agree with the author's thesis. Substantive rights *might* be strong, but only if the judiciary feels that the right is worth protecting. As an example, think of how every decade or so the judiciary bends over backwards to prop up abortion by inventing newer and newer rationales. Even now we're on the cusp of the courts' blowing up standing doctrines, federalism, or some combination of both as the judiciary scrambles to find some way to undo SB-6.
Contrast abortion with the 6th Amendment. The exceptions to the 6th Amendment are rare while violations are blindingly obvious.
What we have with the 2nd Amendment is that it's a substantive right in which judges are able to ignore it when asked to enjoin the government's laws. Sure, it's theoretically possible for the 2nd Amendment to be as strongly enforced as the 1st Amendment's freedom of speech is, but it won't be for one simple reason:
Judges- largely those nominated by Democratic Presidents- won't enforce the 2nd Amendment.
They don't like guns. They don't understand guns. They don't like Heller. They don't like McDonald. Their judicial philosophy is akin to striding forth to right the wrongs in our society, and all laws, precedents, and people must bend in favor of their conception of "Justice."
Even if NYSRPA v Bruen ends up as a win for gun owners, most of the lower court judges will cabin the precedent to just the core holding. Laws even stricter than New York's Sullivan Act will survive on the books for years afterwards because lower court judges are more than willing to delay, deflect, deny, and deconstruct anything in order to achieve their policy preferences.
"Even now we’re on the cusp of the courts’ blowing up standing doctrines, federalism, or some combination of both as the judiciary scrambles to find some way to undo SB-6."
We are? Under modern standing doctrine SB-6 is plainly really really really bad. The federal government could never do something like this, see Spokeo. The only reason Texas is able to get away with it is that standing doesn't apply to states. Finding some way to make it apply is absolutely not "blowing up standing doctrine" its advancing it.
And I fail to see how federalism is implicated, unless it is now controversial that the federal government is supreme.
I'm under the impression that "not applying to states" IS part of modern standing doctrine.
"Under modern standing doctrine SB-6 is plainly really really really bad"
SB-8 is rather insidious because it both harms no one, and if it does, that harm doesn't come from the state, so good luck finding a defendant!
That's why they're blowing up Federal standing doctrine. The entire population of the State of Texas is being sued on a preemptive basis over harms they did not commit.
Volokh had some thoughts on these kinds of lawsuits in his September 3 post about SB-8:
"But when it comes to the procedure for challenging state civil liability schemes (focusing here on schemes where lawsuits are brought by nongovernmental plaintiffs), the legal rule seems to me to be quite well-settled. If you think that some civil liability rule is unconstitutional, you can challenge it—but only as a defense when you're sued, not through a preenforcement challenge."
"And I fail to see how federalism is implicated, unless it is now controversial that the federal government is supreme."
Federal courts can't order state judges to not hear cases brought in state court. Federal courts can intervene if the state court tries to enforce unconstitutional statutes, but they can't lock plaintiffs out of the state courthouse as the Federal government is trying to do here.
The federal government isn't supreme.
Federal laws supersede state laws that contradict them. But the federal government has no authority over state governments.
tylertusta: If you substitute 'abortion' for 'guns' in your post it would make a hell of a liberal argument
"And they often have trouble understanding judicial instructions and complicated scientific or mathematical evidence."
Doesn't this apply to criminal juries too?
I would suspect that the unanimity requirement eliminates a lot of the problem there. Also criminal law doesn't seem as complicated?
Ok, the law may be complicated, but fact finding isnt as complicated, right?
Well that law is what they are instructed on. And part of the law is exactly how to find the facts. There are instructions on how the jury can't "stack" inferences, how evidence can be used for one purpose but not another purpose, or how to do lesser included/inferior offense verdicts. And then there are the endless statutory definitions, some relevant some not, that the jury is given. So the fact finding in a criminal case becomes complicated because of the law.
As to the complexity of criminal law generally, like anything else, it can range from simple (say the guy is caught on camera stealing the candy bar shouting "I love stealing") to very complicated (complex white collar crime, environmental crime, heck even rapes and murders involve lots of scientific evidence).
I'm not seeing the connection. Can you elaborate?
Also judges often seem very confused about the actual law lol.
The lawyers too. If it was straightforward, there wouldn't be fights about jury instructions.
I think not having the address damages helps a bit, but on the whole yes: if the civil jury system doesn't work for you, maintaining it in criminal cases seems difficult to defend.
Copying one of my remarks from yesterday:
Before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, maybe we could look at Rule 706 of the Federal Rules of Evidence:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_706
The judge can appoint his own expert to be questioned by the judge (and cross-examined by the parties). If the jurors are confused by the evidence, a putatively impartial witness will lay everything down for the edification of the jurors.
If we use judge trials, the same dynamic will hold because many judges went into law because (to quote Barbie) math is hard.
I don’t know how often the judge appoints her own experts for the jury’s edification, but it sure would be nice.
The only judge I can think of who actually did this was Judge Posner, and he got a lot of shit for it as I recall.
anyway why? Experts disagree and have different opinions. Ppl have this false expectation that experts are infallible and unbiased. Why do we need a third to contradict the other two.
Because for any given opinion I can find an "expert" who can testify to it. Giving both sides equal weight in the courtroom is biased because it makes it seem like they have equal standing.
And more problematical some people have made a career out of being "expert witnesses" because they are the only people with a given viewpoint so spend a lot of time just giving it and saying, look I have a degree!
So yes a third party would be helpful. Granted the consensus can be wrong! But no one is arguing you shouldn't be allowed to bring your own experts, and if yours has an opinion apart from the consensus, we aren't precluding him from testifying.
So what. It's an adversarial system.
I get the criticism and it's probably valid.
However, what I don't get is why this criticism applies to civil juries and not criminal juries.
...and judges.
It does. And that's why criminal juries need to go as well. If you don't trust a single judge* to judge fairly, introduce criminal first instance courts with panels of judges. But at least you end up with a judgment that contains reasoning that can be attacked on appeal, and while you're at it you can get rid of half of the laws of evidence.
* When I say judges, obviously I don't mean the politicians who hold judicial office at state level in many states. Anyone who needs the consent of the electorate to keep their job is a politician, not a judge.
"reasoning that can be attacked on appeal"
What if the judge votes to acquit? Appealable?
By the prosecutors, sure.
"When I say judges, obviously I don’t mean the politicians who hold judicial office at state level in many states. Anyone who needs the consent of the electorate to keep their job is a politician, not a judge."
That certainly implies a cure far worse than the disease.
Gun owners and users have direct individual liability for their actions. They are subject to criminal prosecution and civil liability for their behavior. This individual liability has a way of concentrating the mind. It seems to encourage decent behavior
It must be nice living in Narnia. O, wait, it's been a while since I read the Narnia books, but I'm pretty sure the inhabitants of Narnia don't have guns, just swords and knives. Anyway, lots of decent behaviour all around...
She alluded to some actual facts supporting her position (multiple studies showing concealed carry permit holders committing crimes at a lower rate than police officers!)
And you reply with snark; how convincing.
I did my law review article on the Seventh Amendment. Jurisprudence on the right to a jury trial was based on whether a claim was considered "legal" or "equitable" in 1791. There was a comment in a footnote in Ross v. Bernhard about the "practical limitations of juries", which seemed to say that there is no right to a jury trial in complex cases, but it was never taken up. The whole issue seemed a sterile historical analysis, without any functional analysis (i.e., Why are civil juries important, and when?). The 7A was without substance.
Of course, this was in 1991; at the time the Second Amendment was considered to be without substance too. So maybe things on the 7A front have changed as well.
This introduction says that less than 1% of federal civil cases are decided by a jury, and then in the very next sentence implies that juries are responsible for much of the cost, delay, and uncertainty in the system.
Is it really true that 1% of the cases cause most of the problems? It seems like the years-long cases described in "Short Circuit" and other postings here typically do NOT involve a jury. I hope the rest of the series will clarify this and provide some evidence.
I'd also be interested to see if Prof. Lerner is proposing a "solution", given that a constitutional amendment isn't going to happen.
Most of our great and noble reforms don't need a constitutional amendment. Abortion "rights," home-grown wheat or weed as interstate commerce, offering the states "free" money in exchange for modifying their laws...do you think we needed *amendments* for all of those things?
Yeah, I'm afraid that is going to be the proposed "solution".
The author does concede that the text seems to demand an originalist interpretation.
If people like you had their way, we'd still be wearing wigs as our slave coachmen drove us around in carriages. Or we'd be the coachmen driving the carriages while the driver alternated between whipping us and whipping the horses.
Harumph, harumph.
Those are not contradictory things. Cases often proceed as if they are going to trial while settlement talks go on. Frequently (I'd venture 99% of the time) cases are settled at the last minute before trial.
To be clear, I am not convinced eliminating jury trials would make things more "efficient." And even if it did, what does that look like? Railroading innocent people? Speeding class action lawsuits to settlement? Not sure "efficiency" should be a goal of the justice system.
" Who can resist Eugene's enthusiasm? "
The modern, educated, inclusive American mainstream, victors in the American culture war.
And a dean or two.
That should suffice for starters.
Maybe if we didn't allow attorneys to select for stupid juries, juries wouldn't be so stupid.
Surprise! Surprise! The Volokh Conspiracy wants to eliminate trial by jury.