The Volokh Conspiracy
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Who is Today's John Hart Ely?
He criticized Roe v. Wade despite thinking it was good policy
This week I taught John Hart Ely's remarkable article, The Wages of Crying Wolf: A Comment on Roe v. Wade. It was an early and now-canonical critique of the Supreme Court's decision that was especially powerful because it was written by somebody who supported much of the work of the Warren Court, and who also supported Roe as a policy matter.
That is why Ely wrote this famous paragraph:
Roe v. Wade seems like a durable decision.
It is, nevertheless, a very bad decision. Not because it will perceptibly weaken the Court--it won't; and not because it conflicts with either my idea of progress, or what the evidence suggests is society's--it doesn't. It is bad because it is bad constitutional law, or rather because it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be.
In any event, consider this. Here is a (1) professor at a top law school writing (2) an article in a top law journal, that (3) strongly criticized the legality of a recent Supreme Court decision while (4) noting that he strongly endorsed the decision as a matter of policy, and did not think it would cause any bad consequences.
Is there a good example of somebody doing this in recent years? There have been some conservative critiques of Heller published, for instance, but the ones that comes to mind came from those who seem neutral or even skeptical of gun rights as a matter of policy. And of course I know there are many examples of top scholars who hold such views, but do not write them up in top journals.
I'd love to hear about good examples, and I'll try to post about them in due course.
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Heller doesn't seem divorced from the constitution like Roe does. There's no penumbras and emanations.
There will be disagreement on the interpretation of the second amendment. But anyone who agrees with the policy advanced in Heller is almost certain to agree on the constitutional interpretation.
Roe seems much more ripe for such problems, because it doesn't fit nicely into an explicit constitutional guarantee. (And I say that as someone who agrees with Roe as a matter of policy, too).
(Ideally, Roe could be located in the 9th amendment. But that would require supreme court jurisprudence which actually recognized the existence of the 9th amendment, and had developed a solid judicial tradition of what a right was, such that rights under the 9th amendment could be cognizably recognized without being spelled out. Any such framework grounded in the Lockean tradition, as it should have been, would have made much of 20th century government action unconstitutional, as it would call for much stricter limits on federal power, and for grants of power to generally be read very narrowly. No expansive reading of the commerce clause, for example).
"penumbras and emanations"
That phrase is not in Roe, it is from Griswold. So many people who criticize Roe often make this basic mistake (among others).
It also makes me wonder, what did Ely think of Griswold? Roe catches much flack but it seems no more 'conjured' than Griswold (or, for that matter, Pierce, Meyer, etc.,).
One way of distinguishing Griswold from Roe is you can argue (and I would) that the contraceptive law in Griswold doesn't even meet the rational basis test.
Nobody really thinks THAT about abortion restrictions. You have to get to some sort of heightened scrutiny where you weigh interests of fetal life against the interests of women and doctors (as Roe did).
the contraceptive law in Griswold doesn’t even meet the rational basis test.
The wish to increase the population is not rational? Why is it rational to believe that prostitution is immoral but not that birth control is immoral? Birth control has been opposed on moral grounds by Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and many others.
You could read his book, "Democracy and Distrust." Ely actually preferred the "emanations and penumbras" approach, which at least tries to anchor itself in the Constitution, to the approach in Roe v. Wade, which is anchored, if at all, only in case law, not Constitutional text, and in any case mostly proceeds by judicial fiat.
Roe relies on Griswold (and on Eisenstadt v. Baird, which also relies on Griswold), so it's completely fair to say that Roe relies on penumbras and emanations. Otherwise, you're left with the language of the 14th amendment itself, or maybe with the standards governing incorporation under that amendment's Due Process Clause, neither of which give you a right to abortion.
This. Roe couldn't exist without Griswold.
Roe cannot be located in the 9th amendment.
A decision akin to Roe, but only restricting the federal government and not the States, could be found in the 9th amendment.
I think you're confusing the 9th amendment and the 10th amendment.
9th: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10th: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The 10th applies to undelegated powers, and leaves them to the states (and etc...). The 9th applies to unenumerated rights, and places them solely with the people.
I wasn't. The way I see it, if courts are to be like some kind of wise philosophers divining unenumerated rights based on natural law philosophizing or maybe just common law tradition, then the 9th amendment may be a place to look for textual support of that notion.
But the 9th amendment would not provide any support for the idea -- which would have been totally bizarre and outrageous to the adopters of amendments 1-10 -- that a federal court would have any jurisdiction to review the actions of a State with regard to any such rights, whether enumerated in amendments 1-8 or not.
I mean, incorporation happened. Privileges and immunities should cover unenumerated rights too.
Incorporation happened 60 years after the 14th was passed. I'm not convinced that was the original meaning. At any rate, that's the 14th not the 9th. But I can see the relation.
If we're going to pretend incorporation never happened, then yeah, the bill of rights only binds the federal government. (I agree with you that the founders only intended the BoR to apply to the federal government - they expected state governments would have their own protections for the rights of their citizens from state government encroachment, which many state constitutions do. Unfortunately, state constitutions were often explicitly racist, hence the 14th amendment).
But the 14th amendment did happen and was ratified. Incorporation should have been an immediate consequence. (That it took 60 years is shameful for the courts, as the amendment clearly demands it, and its shameful that its been incorporated against the states piecemeal instead of all at once). That should include the 9th amendment as well, if the 9th amendment was read by courts to mean anything at all.
Seems like Ely's statement:
Not because it will perceptibly weaken the Court–it won't; and not because it conflicts with either my idea of progress, or what the evidence suggests is society's–it doesn't.
also demonstrates top law professors really have no idea what will weaken the Court (entire elections now turn on maintaining or overturning Roe) or reading tea leaves about what society presently or in the future will consider progress.
Yes, Roe v. Wade has thoroughly politicized the judicial nomination and confirmation process and greatly diminished the perception of the Court as above politics. It's been a disaster for the judicial system. I think Ely (i) failed to appreciate the strength of evangelical believers in America (they weren't much found in the circles in which he moved) and (ii) failed to anticipate the extent to which evangelicals would embrace pro-life sentiments (abortion had not been notably high on their list of concerns previously).
I agree. It's like someone in the early 19th century presuming that the tide of public opinion won't turn against slavery.
I'd like to hear a decent conservative criticism of Heller.
It's so obviously right that it's hard to imagine one.
Not that it's flawless of course. My main criticism of Heller is it's reliance on self-defense to establish a right to keep a handgun in the home.
It's an unnecessary diversion. We don't really bother with justifying what speech is being used for, once government even starts enquiring what the purpose of the speech is then the inquiry is over, the government lost.
I have a right to keep and bear arms which shall not be infringed, the government should have no interest in why I want to exercise that right. However just like the first amendment I cannot use that right to commit a a crime, the first amendment is no defense to fraud, the 2nd is no defense to armed robbery or murder.
So much of the Constitution orients around stopping wannabee dictators from getting ahold of their greatest devices. The First Amendment isn't about there being a great value in every last stupidity spoken, but about denying tyrants their greatest club in their golf bag of tricks: censorship, the 2 wood.
Some months ago there was an explosion of discussion about the marketplace of ideas. I hypothesized it was driven more by a desire to weaken the First Amendment rather than buttress it.
Sure enough, soon Radiolab released an episode discussing all this, ending with a debate where one side said, sure enough, some ideas were odious and thus not deserving of protection.
Half the planet still living the dream, not having to merely imagine, a boot stepping on their face, forever, was not mentioned.
The argument I think is that allowing debate with those who aim to end all debate (as well as most other freedoms) is a more sure way to having a boot stepping on our face.
That is exactly why Netflix should fire those employees who want Dave Chappelle's special to be canceled. It's why courts should award damages against school board members who use jackbooted thugs to arrest parents demanding answers for why their children are being indoctrinated in classrooms and sexually assaulted in school bathrooms.
And how they arrested that brave patriot that just wanted to get to the bottom of Pizzagate, amirite?
Also, conflating the employees of a private company urging the company to stop selling with government actors calling cops speaks to the non-seriousness of your take.
So you end up arguing over who wants to end debate?
It's a little thing called 'state action.'
On the one hand, we have professors being disinvited over things besides the content of their speech, we have a president banned from social media over what his critics interpreted him as saying, law schools haranguing their students over the supposed perniciousness of the phrase "trap house" and the Federalist Society.
On the other hand, the right hounded The Dixie Chicks so much that they had to change their name.
No, wait, they changed their name to show they are woke. Never mind!
Lol, do you really want to go there? Is there a President somewhere arguing people should be fired for their speech (say, kneeling)?
Lol. They get in trouble for taunting, too. And excessive celebration. Perhaps academic freedom is different than freedom of expression while getting paid to play football?
I was simply illustrating that leftists use a wide array of methods to try to stop debate. It's not always Antifa literally booting people in the face, even though it sometimes is that literal.
The fact that you jumped right to Pizzagate shows your hypocrisy about this.
Hey, the Pizzagate guy just wanted answers, why are you dismissing him?
So, we must censor advocates of censorship? Seems kind of self-contradictory.
Not at all. It's the same as that if you want to have a tolerant space you can't tolerate the intolerant.
So Yale law was being tolerant?
This is some Fox News headline I guess I missed this week that you sure didn't.
Is David Lat a credible enough source for you? https://davidlat.substack.com/p/the-latest-ridiculous-controversy
Whoosh.
The problematic part of you playing dumb is that it's entirely credible to the rest of us.
And to eliminate war, you have to get all the good people to band together and kill all the bad people.
Well, yes. If you want to make a peaceful place then warmongers need to be shown the door.
Which is not at all what "TwelveInchPianist" said, but at this point, your dishonesty is kind of a reflex and not totally under control, correct?
If you're not strong enough to tolerate the intolerant, then you don't have a tolerant space in the first place.
That's ridiculous. The intolerant would, by definition, make a place of tolerance one with intolerance.
So Joe McCarthy was right? If you let the Commies alone, they'll be able to obtain political power, at which point they'll start suppressing the speech of their opponents?
(Come to think of it, that seems to be exactly what has happened. So maybe Tail Gunner Joe was onto something.)
Well, of course you've always thought that, right? Your current pose is not to be taken seriously.
"It’s so obviously right that it’s hard to imagine one."
Lol.
I mean, it's got the word "right" in there, even.
It's got a lot of other words too that complicate the idea of what that 'right' is about. Reasonable people can certainly disagree.
The conservative argument against Heller would be that the Second Amendment leads by saying "well regulated." So even if one accepts that the militia is the entirety of the citizenry, the Amendment still assumes not just regulated, but well regulated.
Well regulated may not get us to the near total bans DC and Chicago enacted, but it gets us well past the near total lack of regulation some Second Amendment absolutists propose.
And of course it's not crystal clear that the Second Amendment's intent wasn't to protect state militias from federal encroachment.
And whether or not the gun advocates here find those arguments persuasive, they're not entirely off the wall. So I think one can be an originalist, or a textualist, and still say that Heller was wrongly decided.
Doesn't "well regulated" simply mean something like "in proper working order"?
Yes. It depends what the meaning of 'is', is'
You can't really avoid 'infringing' if the federal govt has the power, through regulation, to infringe on the sovereignty of the militia, (members/citizens)
I don't think so. We regulate alcohol sales for far more than whether it succeeds in its intended purpose.
It is clear as day from historical context that "well-regulated" was not concerned with overbearing government regulations back then.
It's also clear as day that the sun rotates around the earth. Just look in the sky for yourself; you can see it move. And it's also wrong.
Ah, you don't want sunlight as disinfectant, you want penumbras and emanations to confuse mere mortals.
I think that if we ever actually got originalism, you'd be among the first to say it wasn't working.
And if Reason ever got editable comments, you'd be among the first to rewrite yours.
But by the plain text of 2A it is the militia that is to be "well regulated" not the right to keep and bear arms.
You have to get past that before it even makes sense to argue about what "well regulated" means.
Not necessarily. You can argue that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is subordinate to the militia clause. In other words, the entire amendment is about the militia, and "the right of the people" relates back to the militia. Which, if you assume that the militia is the entirety of the citizenry, actually makes sense.
Now again, I don't expect you to find that argument persuasive but the question is whether some other reasonable person could find it persuasive. Unfortunately James Madison isn't here to ask.
I don't even consider that a good faith argument. It goes against basic grammar rules.
You can totally ignore text because grammar?
I think the concept of subordinate clauses is considered basic grammar, but let that aside.
Hovering over all of this is an issue I've raised before, which is that much of the Constitution was written for circumstances that no longer exists. In 1789, the militia was the citizens; today we have the national guard instead. In 1789 there weren't school shootings and workplace massacres every week. In 1789, you didn't have widely available arms that can get off multiple rounds per second. So you're basically trying to shoehorn something that worked well 230 years ago into wildly different circumstances, and it's silly.
Conservatism implies that something is worth conserving. This isn't it. The original question was whether there is a conservative argument, based on the text and original intent, that allows what you consider to be unpalatable gun restrictions. Answer: Yes. I've given it to you. You don't find it persuasive; doesn't mean nobody else does.
Thanks for explaining why there is an amendment process - to change things that are no longer necessary or fit into today's circumstances.
But since I've already given the already existing textual argument for gun control, no amendment process necessary.
In 1789, you didn't have power printing that could run off millions of copies in one short night. You didn't have the internet, radio or TV, telephones or telegraphs, photocopy machines, fax machines.
There were repeating guns in 1789.
Every argument about the RKBA which ignores both those facts is dishonest right from the start.
As usual, you grossly oversimplify things. Whether or not times have changed to the point that the First Amendment needs re-visiting tells us nothing about whether or not times have changed to the point that the Second Amendment needs re-visiting. Each is a separate issue that stands on its own merit. You've brought a 40-watt argument to a 100-watt discussion.
So propose an amendment to the Second Amendment and see if you can get it enacted.
So propose a solution that's actually workable.
Actually, maybe that shoe should be on the other foot. Since the Constitution has gone 230 years without a major re-write, maybe it's time. Maybe you should try proposing that the Second Amendment, as currently written, needs to be re-passed by 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states, otherwise it will be conceded that there just isn't enough support for it. Would you be agreeable to that? If not, then why should I be agreeable to the opposite?
You know what's interesting Krycheck, the amendment process worked perfectly fine until an authoritarian dickweasel threatened the court and got federal government power massively expanded. At which point amendments stopped happening because any time one got any steam the government would do something that marginally solved the perceived problem while retaining all of or increasing their power.
Nope. "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard." 10 U.S.C. § 246(a).
Apparently not basic enough, since you seem to 1. think that there's some kind of correspondence between whether clause is grammatically subordinate and whether the idea expressed in the clause is logically subordinate in terms of the semantic content and 2. misunderstand which clause in the Second Amendment is grammatically subordinate.
That is absolutely not an argument you want to be making. If the first clause is subordinate to the second rather than the other way around, then the case for private gun ownership is even weaker.
Now you're back to the first problem: syntactic subordination doesn't mean (or even particularly imply) semantic subordination. Similarly, the passive voice doesn't mean a lack of action, and a grammatically feminine noun isn't necessarily more effeminate than a masculine one.
No I'm not. Subordination means the subordinate clause is interpreted through the primary clause. They don't stand in isolation one from another.
This has generally been my view, and also the Supreme Court’s position in earlier cases like U.S. v. Miller. The 2nd Amendment only applies to the kinds of weapons a well-regulated militia would use. It doesn’t apply to concealed carry.
And more importantly, a state is entitled to regulate its militia. It could standardize weapons by only permitting certain kinds. It can prohibit weapons in certain circumstances. The individual’s right to keep and bear arms is there, but it is subject to, and balanced by, the state’s right and power to regulate its militia.
It’s what the text says.
This idea of a completely freestanding individual right totally divorced from any concept of a militia is just as completely atextual as the idea that a “right of the people” is solely a collective right and doesn’t encompass individuals at all.
Both elements are part of the text and both have to be interpreted meaningfully. The militia clause is not just surplusage or ignorable preamble.
No, it's not what the text says. "The people" have "rights"; governments do not. None of the other bill of rights amendments give power to the states, except the one-which-shall-not-be-named because it reserves everything else to the people, or the states.
The freestanding right is what SCOTUS understood it do mean in Dred Scott, where Taney wrote that if black people were entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, they would be entitled to "keep and carry arms wherever they went."
When the 14th was adopted to confirm that black people were indeed citizens and were entitled to privileges and immunities of citizens, it was likely this interpretation of privileges and immunities that was understood.
Of course, SCOTUS quickly reversed itself and adopted a much narrower interpretation of privileges and immunities ones it was understood that they applied to blacks.
Too many people forget this. Slaughterhouse was a disgrace, still is.
So the 2A protects the right to keep and bear fully-automatic M-16s, as well as Browning .50-caliber machine guns. Got it.
It can more fairly be read to protect machine guns than silly hunting and self-defense stuff.
Where in the Constitution does it talk about a right to hunt? Oh wait, the stated reason for the right to bear arms is for militias. That means at minimum, it prevents banning the weapons that would be most useful for a militia.
I suspect machine guns are still out, because they require advanced training. You probably don't want a bunch of yahoos with machine guns in your militia. (Or maybe you do?)
But it sure as shit covers assault rifles. That's the staple. I think you could make the argument that a state could ban everything _except_ AK-47s, since a law like that would serve a "well-regulated militia" quite well.
Anyway, I think the conservative argument against Heller is something along the lines of "wtf hunting? Where did that come from?" A bad case of originalism run amok and away from the text, being the answer.
No, that's exactly what the conservative argument against Heller would not be.
That's what the authoritarian leftist or communist gun grabber argument against Heller is.
Roe was not a marked deviation from prior case law. Abortion was more or less new territory.
Heller sure much different. The collective rights theory was considered one of the most settled questions in American law. In the 1990's courts here and there began to accept the individual rights theory, culminating in Heller. Was this the fruit of years of "scholarship" funded by the gun industry? There seems to be no effort to supply an alternate explanation.
After removing the scare quotes around "scholarship" and the fake claim that it was "settled" that the plain meaning of the 2A's words was gutted by the explanatory phrase nothing is left of your complaint except its tedious dishonesty.
In other words, I am correct.
The honesty of that claim is on a par with that of everything else you say.
There is overwhelming historical writings and other events demonstrating that 2A is both a collective right and an individual right.
The 2A is not a right. It protects rights.
What evidence shows it protects a collective right? There are plenty of other clauses in the Constitution that deal with organized militias and standing armies.
It is both a collective right and an individual right.
The historical writings have considerable discussions of both the "common defence" and "self defence"
common defence most commonly in reference to the members of the community forming a common defence for the safety of the community. Those writing would frequently include reference to the individual right for self defence.
The term "well regulated militia " seems to be based on the concept well known at the time to being the community being able to form a common defence.
There was -- and continues to be -- an effectively undisputed authority for a government to organize armed forces for its defense. Historically that was sometimes done through organized militias, and now it is more often a standing army. Whether one classified that as a power or right depends somewhat on the context (for example, internal versus external relations).
But what contemporary evidence, as opposed to modern-day assertion, says the Second Amendment was meant to protect that right or power?
Except the militia was every able-bodied man. That's how it was understood at the founding, and that's what US law still says (having also added women serving in the national guard). It's not an 'organized' militia - the militia is us. That militia is still available to be called on for national defense.
The 2nd amendment does not refer to an 'organized militia'. It refers to the militia that is all of us. Those are the people the 2nd amendment grants an individual right to keep and bear arms. (And another blogger on Volokh has been making the case that an individual right is exactly how the founders understood it).
FWIW, the law should be changed. The militia should be defined as every able-bodied person. There's no reason non-national guard women shouldn't be considered part of the militia.
Can you point to a Supreme Court case that said there was only a collective right?
But in any case, we had cases stretching from early in the republic with the settled conclusion blacks had no civil rights. You aren't saying the Warren court was wrong for setting all that settled precedent on its ear are you?
" The collective rights theory was considered one of the most settled questions in American law."
It wasn't settled in the DC Circuit.
Only by its advocates.
"The collective rights theory was considered one of the most settled questions in American law."
Who was doing this considering? People like you?
Heller was a landmark decision in large part because it upended many a hornbook.
So, "yes" to my second question.
It is not the fault of the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court, or anyone who recognizes the individual righta to keep and bear arms that hornbook authors failed to understand Presser v. Illinois, or even Cruikshank and U.S. v. Miller.
"We think it clear that there are no sections under consideration, which only forbid bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law, do not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
You flatter me and captcrisis if you think we've authored many hornbooks. Look, as an empirical matter it's just the case that for a long time most authority treated those precedents differently than you find them to be. There's a reason why gun supporters were ecstatic when Heller came down and it wasn't because a long recognized right was simply recognized yet again...
"Look, as an empirical matter it’s just the case that for a long time most authority treated those precedents differently than you find them to be."
That's true. Most authority treated them as interpreting the 2nd Amendment to protect some sort of "collective right" that could not be exercised by individuals, or perhaps at all.
But people noticed that as a textual matter, the precedents simply didn't say that. And they were able to convince the DC Circuit (where it was a matter of first impression) and ultimately SCOTUS of that fact.
"That’s true. "
Thanks for conceding. It was my only point there.
And the idea that that 'people noticed as a textual matter...' that the observed consensus was wrong was just a formalist turn is hilarious. What happened was: gun rights supporters became more of a force, they funded scholarship and pushed for friendly nominees, and eventually it 'worked.'
You think people like Levinson and Tribe were funded by gun rights supporters?
And would you care to defend, as a textual matter, the "observed consensus" that Miller, Cruikshank, and Presser stand for treating the 2A as some sort of collective or state right?
There's a reason the scholarship "worked".
So the claim 'many were funded by X' means 'all were?'
It's a simple empirical claim, were gun rights supporters more funded then, or not. Bring it, dude, if you have counter evidence.
"There’s a reason the scholarship “worked”."
Different judges were appointed through the political process that does that?
The scholarship worked because it was substantively correct.
But I see you're unwilling to defend the hornbook consensus on the substance. Good call.
"The collective rights theory was considered one of the most settled questions in American law."
This is complete nonsense.
The only SCOTUS decision on 2A prior to Heller is Miller.
And the Miller court implicitly if not explicitly accepted the individual right view of 2A, because if the Miller court viewed 2A as a collective right Miller's challenge of his conviction could have been dismissed without ever considering the issue of what types of arms were covered by 2A.
Under the collective right view Miller wouldn't have even had standing to challenge his conviction on the basis of 2A.
You need to talk to 12"
"Most authority treated them as interpreting the 2nd Amendment to protect some sort of “collective right” that could not be exercised by individuals, or perhaps at all."
"Most authority" was your term to refer to Hornbooks.
Slyfield is correct that Miller treated the 2A as an implicit individual right, as did Cruikshank and Presser.
Lol, it's an empirical claim. You want to argue most hornbooks at the time argued for an individual right? Be my guest. Pony up, Lt. Commander.
No, i think the right argument is that most hornbooks were simply wrong. Wrong about supreme court precedent, and wrong about it being settled.
Could you point to a single supreme court precedent that treats the 2A as a collective right?
?? You were correctly claiming that most hornbooks interpreted the precedents as protecting a collective right. That the true, but the hornbooks were at odds with the decisions themselves, as many scholars in the 80's and nineties pointed out.
I think Dred Scott, where Justice Taney said that if black people were permitted to have rights this would give them a right to keep and bear arms which would be totally inimical to keeping them in the subordinate position that the public peace requires — I think that completely cuts against the idea that the 2nd Amendment was always regarded as solely a “collective” right.
In my view, there is an individual right to keep and bear arms, although applicable only to members of “the people” (e.g. citizens) rather than all “persons.” But it is not an absolute right. It is balanced against the state’s right and power not just to maintain a militia, but to regulate it well.
The "collective rights" theory of the Second Amendment was novel, poorly supported and, thankfully, relatively short-lived. The fact that subordinate courts made assumptions based on that theory without ever reaching an actual Supreme Court decision on it is no indication that it was settled.
"Is there a good example of somebody doing this in recent years?"
I wouldn't count them as "good" examples but there is no shortage of writers for The Volokh Conspiracy who seek to ban the right to openly carry firearms for the purpose of self-defense by penning articles and Amicus briefs arguing that Open Carry can be banned in favor of concealed carry.
You are probably one of them.
Most gun crimes involve concealed carry up until that point. Few want to advertise their dangerousness before it becomes useful as a threat or weapon in the crime.
How open or concealed carry for law abiding citizens has anything to do with any of this I don't know.
An actual parallel would be someone in favor of banning Open Carry in favor of concealed carry saying that that cannot be constitutionally done. You seem to have lost the thread in favor of shoehorning some hobby-horse of your own into a discussion where it does not belong.
Quite a few SSM supporting top law professors criticized the Ogberfell decision (see here: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300221558/what-obergefell-v-hodges-should-have-said, I think VC's own Somin did so as well).
Eric Segall
I'm not sure of their policy views, but perhaps this article co-written by Mr. Baude himself is a good example: Baude and Volokh, "Compelled Subsidies and the First Amendment," 132 Harv. L. Rev. 171 (2018) (criticizing Janus).
I also think think Roe is bad law despite supporting it as a policy matter and also supporting much (most?) of the work of the Warren Court. Pretty sure that makes me today's John Hart Ely.