The Volokh Conspiracy
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District Court: "Jacobson essentially applied rational basis review and found that the vaccine mandate was rational"
Of course, the word "rational" appears nowhere in Jacobson.
On Friday, a federal judge rejected a challenge to Michigan State's vaccine mandate. (Eugene blogged about the case here). The Court accepts the mythicized account of Jacobson. The Court finds that Jacobson "essentially applied rational basis review," and that Supreme Court precedent is "binding." To support that conclusion, the Court does not cite any Supreme Court cases. Not even Jacobson itself! He couldn't, because the word "rational" appears nowhere in the district court decision. Instead, the court cites Judge Easterbrook's decision in Klaassen v. Trustees of Indiana University, Justice Gorsuch's concurrence in Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, and Harris v. University of Massachusetts Lowell.
Let me be very clear here: there is no "binding" Supreme Court precedent holding that vaccine mandates are reviewed with rational basis review. The Michigan court was correct that lower courts have read Jacobson in this fashion:
Over the last year and a half, courts have looked to Jacobson to infer that a rational basis standard applies to generally applicable vaccine mandates; the facts of the case are obviously not going to be identical to every COVID vaccine case that has been or is currently being litigated.
But this rule is not present in Jacobson itself. Indeed, the judge seems to recognize this shortfall, when he wrote that "Jacobson essentially applied rational basis review and found that the vaccine mandate was rational." They key hedge word is "essentially." There cannot be "binding" precedent that "essentially" reaches a conclusion.
I would encourage any judge or litigant that plans to cite Jacobson to read my article. You will avoid making avoidable mistakes.
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Why do all these courts believe that that raping people with vaccines is appropriate?
There is a non-insignificant chance of horrifyingly serious adverse events from this vaccine up to and including death. Moreover, it's important to note the difference between a negative law that says you must not affirmately harm others and a positive law that says you must potentially hurt yourself in order to participate in a free society.
At the end of the day the entire point of a government is to cherish freedom by default.
I do think risk is much smaller than you characterized.
That being said, rational basis would logically take into account the current knowledge the effectiveness. In the case of pfizer, it is only 50%-60% after 6 months and seemingly dropping fast.
If vaccines were truely effective, then you would not be seeing vaxed individuals comprising 15%-30% of total covid infections as we are now seeing. (sept 2021 data)
There is nothing rational about a medical draft to be a citizen.
Tom, how do you get "much smaller" than "a non-insignificant chance"? Unless you have conclusive evidence that the answer is zero, I'm not sure how you can get to any smaller than what Johnious actually posted.
I will agree (with both of you, I think) that the risk is very small. But unlike David's blind assertion, the risk is not zero.
Rossami - probably overstatement that the risk of reinfection is zero,
the only data I have seen on reinfection is Alabama is supposedly reinfections are running at 1% of the total cases which is one of the highest rates that I have seen. The israeli study states that the infection post vaxed is 13x higher than the reinfection rate. There seems to be very incomplete/unreported raw data on the actual number of reinfections.
For allegedly being in favor of equal rights you seem not to care about rights for people you disagree with. Pretty typical, you probably tell yourself the same thing while writing a check to the ACLU, lololol.
I didn't say that the risk was zero. I said that the risk was not non-insignificant. (Which has far too many negatives; I mean that the risk is insignificant.)
That's a reasonable. More reasonable than the wording you chose below.
The problem is that "significance" in this context is not the repeatable scientific definition of significance but the squishy and entirely subjective common definition. When the potential adverse consequence is death (and there is some evidence that in at least some circumstances it is), then even a very low numerical rate seems higher than "insignificant" to me. I am neither an anti-vax loon nor lying merely for choosing that threshold.
False. Why do all these anti-vax loons believe that lying about vaccines is appropriate?
So you're pro-rape David Nieporent?
Every one of the anti-vaxx freaks in these comments has lived with vaccine mandates his entire life. His siblings, friends, neighbors, coworkers and children have accepted vaccine mandates and greatly benefited from them. This includes mandates against Hepatitis B, Diphtheria, Polio, Chickenpox, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.
So what's the difference today? Why this bizarre & irrational hysteria? Simple: Doughious-types are puppets dangling from the puppeteer's string. Leaders of today's right-wing decided Covid Denialism was a effective tool to stoke the base, so they pushed a button marked "outrage".
The response from Doughious-types was immediate, mindless, slavish obedience.
The difference is that I am here to object.
Hepatitis B, Diphtheria, Polio, Chickenpox, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella?
Is this an oops, all rapes situation? Or are some vaccines less rapey than others?
Mandates to take these in order to remain employed, etc., operate where?
Oh it's just a straight-up mandate for those. No employment angle at all.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/08/states-have-mandated-vaccinations-since-long-before-covid-19/
Also required to go to school or summer camp. Or work in the health care industry.
Actually, I just saw Robert Barnes claiming that the Obama admin invariably failed in its attempts to to impose a flu vaccine on health workers.
And in Blackman's paper he addresses school vaccine requirements being justified on the basis that schooling is a Government-provided privilege, iirc. Obviously summer camp is not a right.
So, to repeat, prev-to-COVID mandates in order to remain employed, etc., operate where?
Actually, I recalled that backwards. Barnes said Obama EOC filed multiple suits AGAINST flu vaccine mandates and won them all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex4mkniWtqc&t=492s
Gandydancer : So, to repeat, prev-to-COVID mandates in order to remain employed, etc., operate where?
As Sarcastr0 said, the link listed several examples of employment-based vaccine mandates. A quote:
"Some states already mandate certain vaccinations for specific categories of adults. New York, for example, requires that all workers in hospitals, nursing homes and other health care facilities be immunized against measles and rubella. Rhode Island requires child care workers to not only be immunized against several common childhood diseases, but to get an annual flu shot, too. Several states have specific vaccination mandates for college students"
You're just not very good at this, are you Gandydancer? But the link reminded me of something else: To any normal person, the Right's new vaccine hysteria is the height of STUPID, an almost inconceivable mix of ignorance, selfishness, and loathsome politics. But they've gone there before.
As the link notes, we now have an effective vaccine against human papillomavirus (HPV), which causes cervical cancer. Several states looked to add it to other mandated vaccines, assuming parents would want their daughters protected from a frequently fatal cancer. The result was wild rage from the Right.
You see, HPV is often a sexually transmitted disease. Apparently these Right-wing morons decided vaccinating a girl against the disease impugned her honor - or gave her permission to have sex - or something equally wacko (it's difficult for a normal person to reconstruct Right-wing "thought")
They were aware this reasoning was repugnant but still wanted their culture-war play toy, so the Right invented spurious "problems" with the HPV vaccine, and began to describe it as "innocent little 12-year-old girls" being "forced to have a government injection."
Now we can see that was just a warm-up for this new culture-war imbecility. The same lies. The same posturing. The same medical ignorance. The same callous disregard for public health. The same attempt to hide toxic political bullshit behind phony "principles".
At least Right-types aren't picking on little girls this time.....
Gandydancer : And in Blackman’s paper he addresses school vaccine requirements being justified on the basis that schooling is a Government-provided privilege, iirc
School vaccine mandates apply to private or parochial schools too, as the link notes. What does that do to your bullshit excuse?
It provides an example of what happens when you let the camel get its nose under the edge of a tent in a high wind. Or of "slippery slope". The initial excuse for the governmment's right to compel jabbing disappeared as soon as the idea of its doing so was normalized among the unthinking. We need to stop you totalitarians here and now or you'll be implanting wires in our heads soon enough. Think of how it endangers others if the authorities can't immobilize us should we ever become non-compliant?
When you need to go to sci-fi nonsense to justify hating on life-saving policies...
What say you about the smallpox vaccine mandate?
It's time for a true confession : I used to be anti-vaxx too. One of my earliest childhood memories is breaking free from the doctor preparing a shot and running shrieking thru his office while nurses tried to corner & corral me. Yep; I was ally to Gandydancer at that time - but then I grew up.
Yet I may have to switch sides again. After all, if They can ban you from driving drunk, what's to stop them from banning you from driving to the MAGA rally. Only now I see the totalitarian danger of DUI laws!
@grb: So, you were a excitable moron from a very young age.
I, on the other hand, have never been afraid of needles.
But our only crisis right now is that our government is out of control and there are too many totalitarians in our society enabling it.
We may have to put you down like the rabid freedom-threatening dogs you are.
So you're mentally ill?
In addition to a bad vaccine take, this is an extremely bad rape take.
Being forced to have something placed inside your body is rape.
If the rapist cites the greater good then it's okay?
So the tobacco companies are also raping their customers?
I'v been waiting for a long time to have another shot at them!
Jackie's gonna cash in on your wretched disfigurement with a second bite at the apple!
If tobacco companies forced people to smoke then yes.
You must have been living in a monastery for the past 40 years, because that is exactly the argument that the plaintiffs lawyers and state AGs have been making (sometimes successfully).
If they have then they'been lying.
So when one force feeds those Gerber mashed potatoes to one's six month old, one is raping the kid? Do you want to rethink that?
Based on the amount of metals in baby food yes, yes it is.
Don't forget about fluoridated water!
That’s not the definition of rape either at common law or by statute.
If you get shot by a gun and a bullet enters your body, no one calls that rape, because it’s not.
"An outrageous violation"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape
Oh wow. Your googling to pick the second definition of rape in an online dictionary totally contradicts the statutory definition and most common colloquial usage. Totally nailed it.
Also I’m just sure you go around talking about the Lincoln or JFK rape and people know exactly what you’re talking about.
Per the latest from the Israelis, the only group that seems to be truly serious about looking for adverse reactions, the Pfizer vaccine, which is the weaker mRNA variant, sees a rate of myocarditis of about 1 in 5000 for young males between 16 and 24, most developing after the 2nd dose,, with a rate of 1 in 10,000 in the general vaccinated population. This significantly larger than the rate of myocarditis prior to the vaccine. It's almost as if the previous experiments before the pivot to vaccines with mRNA tech were shelved because of adverse effects after multiple doses or something. Oh, and Denmark, Norway, and Sweden have stopped multiple doses of the Moderna vaccine. Why? Because they don't like the increased rate of myocarditis.
And pericarditis. https://ausnewslab.com/sweden-denmark-halt-moderna-covid-jabs-for-younger-people-over-possible-side-effects/
Appropriate? The courts say only that it's legal; it's up to the executive or legislative branch to say it's appropriate. And those same courts believe that drafting young men and sending them to charge German machine guns is legal, as is requiring pre-schoolers to have measles vaccines, so it would be surprising if they suddenly drew the line at mandatory COVID vaccines.
Those historical courts were barbaric in my humble opinion.
You can also be executed for refusing to charge German machine guns. And more generally, outside the context of war, the courts also say it’s legal for law enforcement to impose all sorts of force, up to and including death, when engaged in the enforcement of countless criminal offenses. L/! An officer can stop you if he has PC for jaywalking, a misdemeanor that is subject to jail time in various places (not that it matters because an officer can make a reasonable mistake of law). That same officer can shoot you if he thinks you’re reaching for a gun and the courts will say it’s reasonable. Or he can get very physical with you if he thinks you’re resisting him arresting you for jaywalking and you can be beaten to a pulp, jailed, and charged with felonies.
Anyway, it’s notable that people freak out about the tyranny of vaccination, something that has known positive health benefits for society, but kind of just accept living in a police state where you can be grievously physically harmed by agents of the state for things that don’t really affect anyone else, other than it’s a violation of some lengthy local criminal code.
So normal citizens are soldiers now?
Normal citizens become soldiers when there is a draft, which was the point.
Not always. Review the swine fluc vaccination record. And the COVID "vaccinations" are of largely of a novel type with dubiously identified consequences.
Mandated COVID jabs are anyway part of a pattern of tyranny to very little good effect. That matters.
As to unreasonable police shootings, etc.: Conflating things that are allowed in error, sometimes egregious, error, with proper acts does not advance the case for your own honesty.
Don't presume to presume my "acceptance" of anything.
Gerald Ford vaccination
That last line is an artifact of a search for a vaccination program that I remembered was unfortunate. Reason's crappy software strikes again.
“Mandated COVID jabs are anyway part of a pattern of tyranny to very little good effect. That matters.”
It would matter if that were the case. But since it is not the case, it does not. It’s actually part of a public health program to keep people from getting sick and dying. I mean I guess that’s tyranny if you are pro people getting sick and dying, but that is a minority position.
Your unsupported claim as to the facts of the situation is so obviously worthless as rebuttal that I would wonder that you bothered to write it were I not aware that you are a jackass.
My claims are supported by immense amounts of data regarding vaccines and their efficacy at combating Covid and the obvious motivations of public health authorities to accomplish public health goals.
The only jackasses are anti-vaccine “prove me wrong” people like yourself, who think their clown-show amateur “research” needs rebutted by random people online instead of accepting the reality about how public health works.
The totalitarian way you want "public health" to "work" is clearly novel, so pretending that it's same-old same-old doesn't help your credibility at all.
As to my demanding proof that there is good reason to engage in oppressions of my liberty, I'm not giving up my right to do that to the likes of you, so get over that idea, Comrade.
LTG,
With respect to doing the math, one can plot the reported new cases per million (Y) versus the percent of population fully vaccinated (X).
In both the UK and the US, reported new cases increased by a factor of 5 as the % full vaccinated increased beyond 40%.
You can also plot the daily case fatality rate versus the percent of population vaccinated. Again you will see that increasing the percentage vaccinated does not decrease the case fatality rate ineither the UK or the US.
Don’ t cherry pick studies, do the math yourself.
You’ll find all the relevant numerical data in Oxford’s Our World in Data.
With respect: I don't cherry-pick studies or "do the math myself" because I am smart enough to know that this is way outside my area of expertise. This is the exact type of "do your own research" I don't like. It is just random haphazard guessing not based on actual experience or expertise or sustained study.
LTG,
We'll even as a lawyer, you should learn how to do some statistics.
"This is the exact type of “do your own research” I don’t like."
I cannot imagine a more anti-intellectual point of view. Then you are just reduced to acceptance of Authority.
That may be fine for the law, but for those of us that have spent our careers analyzing scientific data, it is not a responsible intellectual position.
Enough about methodology, the evidence remains and does NOT support the wild claims that getting to &0% or 80% vaccination will end the pandemic.
The telling phrase is 'your own' research, as if research were personal. If they meant "Do research," they would have said that. But they want it to be an individual thing.
And by "research" they don't mean putting on the white lab coat and running tests; they mean "Googling for YouTube videos that say what you want to hear."
I'm for vaccines (but if mandated, should be through the states) but how in god's name can such an insanely invasive thing skate by on rational basis?
The science may be solid enough for strict scrutiny, and therefore you can use rational basis to simply observe that?
"Rational basis" is "virtually no scrutiny". Unless the judges are ideologically opposed they can always imagine up something. So there's that.
One wonders how many lives might be saved, and how many infections of Covid might be avoided if highly skilled, educated and erudite individuals such as Prof. Blackman applied the same time and effort in finding that indeed vaccination mandates are legal (and not just good but great public policy) as he does in trying (and failing) to make the case that they are not legal.
0? 1? "Think of the children"? "Fuck off, slaver"?
What is the point of being alive if everyone is dead inside?
Today's Right was reprogramed overnight to be anti-vaxx zombie loons. Before Covid, the anti-vaxx movement was divided pretty equally between idiots on the Left & imbeciles on the Right. It took concentrated & consistent messaging to remake the latter into a pro-disease party.
They taught their followers to believe the disease isn’t serious, its effects are exaggerated, the statistics are phony, people’s deaths aren’t real, the medical experts are Bond-grade villains, all precautions are irrelevant, and secret miracle cures are hidden from us. The anti-vaccine Right was completely predictable, given they'd already fought every single tactic or measure against Covid. If the virus suddenly spouted little limbs and could speak, it would shake the hand of every right-winger it found, thanking them all for their tireless support.
And Doughious-types? They believe what they're told to believe and say what they're told to say. Strange how their aversion to "slavers" never extends to the handlers who program their every thought.
I'm certainty not asking for abject obedience anywhere near that degree. I just want them to act like they've got the slightest bit of common sense.
Your statement is a total canard, couched in a radically false frame of reference that lacks bidirectionality and proportionality.
What a horrifyingly myopic and dysfunctional view on quality of life.
I see someone enjoys their thesaurus.
The irony
Blackman has made an argument, and you bloviate in place of making any. Why do you persist in wasting everyone's attention in making ipse dixit claims?
Lets ask an obvious question here. Do you really think that, with Roe v. Wade in play, a conservative Supreme Court is really going to be interested in gutting a long-standing precedent tending to counter the libertarian argument that people have absolute control over their bodies as a matter of constitutional right?
Or at any rate the conservatives on the Supreme Court
It would not surprise me in the least.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning
Blackman makes the argument that the "long-standing precedent" isn't. What have you got?
As to what our rogue Court will do, that is a different question.
I got Justice Barrett’s denial of injunctive relief in Klaassen v. University of Indiana.
I interpret the fact that she denied the request herself rather than refer it to the full court as intending to send a signal about where she stands.
And look, I understand you can play the “this case is distinguishable” game til the cows come home. You can believe Jacobson is limited to its specific facts. You can believe that a ruling holding a police officer can’t strangle a suspect on Monday doesn’t put a police officer on notice that he can’t strangle a suspect on Tuesday.
And if you believe that, there’s really not much I can do for you.
You certainly won't be able to do anything for me if you can't come up with anything better on point than that ACB is acting like the worthless excuse for a Justice that I've always thought she was.
The binding precedent is that vaccination mandates are constitutional. All the rest of this is just desperate blathering on your part.
The various levels of constitutional scrutiny did not even develop until 1938 so thank you for displaying your ability to understand the concept of evolution.
But there is not binding precedent that vaccination mandates are constitutional. There is a binding precedent that a comparatively small financial fine for being unvaccinated was constitutional. As a legal matter, that's a significantly different precedent than what you are claiming.
There is a binding precedent that a comparatively small financial fine for being unvaccinated was constitutional.
This is bad constitutional reasoning. Jacobson was not a cruel and unusual punishment case, and under Harmelin, such a claim would fail anyway. Jacobson was a case that argued exactly what the anti-vaxxers claim- that the Due Process Clause precludes vaccine mandates. It didn't turn on the size of the fine, and indeed, the Supreme Court has followed Jacobson in other cases and upheld other penalties besides a fine.
Yeah. When you read the case the Court addresses and rejects all of the same arguments that are currently being made -- that the vaccine is ineffective, that it has serious side effects etc. I don't think Jacobson claimed that he had previously had small pox and was therefore immune, but I am confident they would have rejected that argument too.
One interesting thing at the end, though, was they read in an exception to the mandate, whereby you have to be exempted if you could show that you personally were likely to suffer severe consequences from the vaccine.
Technically dicta, though, since it wasn't at issue in Jacobson.
I am not 100% sure on that. You could make an argument that the implied exception is integral to the question of whether the mandate as a whole is unreasonable.
No; that's not what Jacobson held. That's what Blackman has tried to pretend Jacobson held. Jacobson held that a vaccine mandate was constitutional, period. The punishment was not at issue in the case.
(If you wanted to argue that Jacobson does not stand for the proposition that a state can forcibly vaccine someone, you'd be on firmer ground, but since nobody is proposing that, it would not be relevant to any current situation.)
Effectively, the state could though. If a state passed a vaccine mandate with serious prison time- even 10 or 20 years or something- hard labor, and millions of dollars of fines and restitution, that would be constitutional. And it would have the effect of forcing people to get the vaccine.
Actually just jabbing the needle into the person over their stated objection would probably pose a Rochin v. California problem.
Sentencing people to death is also constitutional. That doesn't mean the government gets to order it for everyone.
Shame to waste such intelligent on making such a poor argument
The irony, it drips. Joey B, is that you?
Jacobson paid a $5 fine and remained unvaccinated, AFAIK.
I would encourage any judge or litigant than plans to cite Jacobson to read Jacobson, instead. You will avoid far more mistakes.
s/than/that
From Jacobson:
"We say necessities of the case because it might be that an acknowledged power of a local community to protect itself against an epidemic threatening the safety of all, might be exercised in particular circumstances and in reference to particular persons in such an arbitrary, unreasonable manner, or might go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public, as to authorize or compel the courts to interfere for the protection of such persons."
Arbitrary and unreasonable? That does sound an awful lot like "arbitrary and capricious" which is, mirabile dictu, a common way of framing the rational basis test.
Seriously, how can you read Jocobson and not come away with the conclusion that statutorily mandated vaccines are constitutional? The SCT specifically held:
"While we do not decide and cannot decide that vaccination is a preventive of smallpox, we take judicial notice of the fact that this is the common belief of the people of the State, and, with this fact as a foundation, we hold that the statute in question is a health law, enacted in a reasonable and proper exercise of the police power."
Then I guess eugenics is still precedent in the United States too.
You can argue that Jacobson should be overruled (or at least modified to require strict scrutiny review), but it is either stupid or intellectually dishonest (or both) to argue that is stands for something other then the proposition that mandatory vaccines in response to public health crises are constitutional.
A far too high percentage of constitutional law "scholarship" these days is to just try to throw up arguments in the hope that a court might run with one of them. Blackman is clearly engaging in that form of "scholarship" here.
You could have stopped your comment one word earlier.
The case has been rendered moot by the evolution of human rights.
That's not how law works.
“Our decisions remain binding prec edent until we see fit to reconsider them, regardless of whether subsequent cases have raised doubts about their continuing vitality.” Hohn v. United States, 524 U. S. 236, 252–253 (1998).
Then what stops another Buck v. Bell until then?
You do know that mandatory chemical castration for sex offenders is a thing in several states.
I only recall seein it as a condition for refusable parole, but maybe I'm wrong. Which states?
Aside from that being reversible and punishment, it's still barbaric.
You shouldn't assume that just b/c David Nieporent advocated reading Jacobson and not Blackman and pronounces on error found in the latter that he's read either, or would recognize error if it bit him on the butt.
Have you read Jacobson? You should -- it is pretty short. I'll admit that I only did so this afternoon, and it took about 10 minutes.
My point is there is no way you can come away from that case thinking it was a narrow holding based on the size of the potential penalty.
Have you read Blackman? One of his points (repeated in many places in this preliminary version of his article, as are other duplicated segments) is that Jacobson is of a piece with Lochner, and its value as precedent ought to be viewed in that light.
That's not how it works, though. There are tons of precedents from the Lochner era that are still good law. Some examples:
Village of Euclid v. Ambler
Downes v. Bidwell & Balzac v. Porto Rico
Gitlow v. New York
Buchanan v. Warley
Myers v. United States
Pierce v. Society of Sisters
Etc.
There's no such thing as "guilt by association" in constitutional law. Other than cases that were logically dependent on Lochner (and Jacobson was not that), nothing's overturned simply because West Coast Hotel v. Parrish came down.
Yes, but Blackman will flail for anything to support his silly points. I'm surprised he hasn't authored some piece with Seth Barrett Tillman explaining that Jacobson only applies to appointed officials in the executive branch.
Jacobson is of a piece with Lochner except that Lochner has been superseded and Jacobson hasn't been, and therefore it is not in fact of a piece with Lochner in any way and its value as precedent is therefore entirely different in kind.
Is this some kind of joke?
It's a sardonic comment on Blackman's weird obsessions.
Also, doesn't the disfavor for Lochner make Jacobson a stronger case (or, as Josh Blackman might say, a "superprecedent")?
The current view (disfavored by David B) is that Lochner lost because of an overzealous application of the "reasonableness" standard.
But in Jacobson, the govt did not even hit that "overzealous" line.
P.S. One thing I learned in law school was that John Marshall Harlan was usually right.
You can't refute Blackman by arguing with me, as I have formed to particular opinion on the matter. But neither can you refute him by ignoring his arguments.
And why Lochner should make Jacobson a stronger case eludes me. Explain.
He didn't say that Lochner made Jacobson a stronger case. He said that the disfavor for Lochner made Jacobson a stronger case.
To be fair, Prof. Blackman's article does offer some practical guidance as far as easily-avoidable mistakes are concerned.
Let me be very clear here: there is no "binding" Supreme Court precedent holding that vaccine mandates are reviewed with rational basis review.
Why would 'rational basis' review apply and not strict scrutiny review? I thought violation of bodily autonomy and integrity was a huge deal. What would change if strict scrutiny was the basis for reviewing the constitutionality of a vaccine mandate? How would a vaccine mandate change?
If you read Jacobson, the court applied an "arbitrary and unreasonable" standard, which is substantially the same as the modern rational basis/arbitrary & capricious standard.
They held that the vaccine mandates enacted in response to a perceived public health crisis are "a reasonable and proper exercise of the police power."
Yes, I understand that = They held that the vaccine mandates enacted in response to a perceived public health crisis are “a reasonable and proper exercise of the police power.”
My question is what if the criteria to evaluate changed: rational review to strict scrutiny. What changes?
The requirement would have to be narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling government interest. Given the severity of COVID, there is a decent chance that a broad-based mandate would still fly, as long as it didn't have a bunch of exceptions unrelated to health and safety. For example, exempting union members would probably tank the whole thing.
So if the government, oh I don't know, exempted unionized USPS letter carriers from the vaccine mandate put into place for all federal contractors, it would in theory 'tank' a vaccine mandate if the vaccine mandate were subjected to strict scrutiny. Interesting.
I mean...not that a union would ever be exempted from a vaccine mandate. Nah. 🙂
USPS employees are the only government workers subject to OSHA, and thus were not exempted.
You guys are hitting on a very interesting point - how does strict scrutiny apply in the context of executive orders?
First off, the govt as employer has much broader discretion than does the govt as legislator. So I am not sure that strict scrutiny would apply to XOs applicable to employees and contractors.
However, as regards the OSHA regs [which I understand we shall see in final form sometime before Jan 2049], it is really interesting. On the one hand, that are applicable to as many people as OSHA covers. On the other hand, that leaves a large percentage of Americans outside the scope of the mandate.
Personally, I don't see how that satisfies strict scrutiny.
I haven't read the entirety of his article, but Blackman explicitly addresses and refutes your "substantially the same" claim.
Can you point me to that spot? I do not see it in the headings.
I was doing something else while Panopreter was reading it to me, but a quuick search tirns up
I vaguely remember his returning to the subject, but that is anyway a start.
Blackman made an assertion. It was a bad assertion by a bad lawyer. Well, that's not fair — a motivated lawyer, engaging in desperate advocacy. It's a bad assertion by a bad law professor, whose professional obligation is not to be an advocate, but to accurately describe the law. Here's Justice Gorsuch, in a concurring opinion that Blackman himself repeatedly relies on:
"Although Jacobson predated the modern tiers of scrutiny, this Court essentially applied rational basis review to Henning Jacobson's challenge…"
And this is what Blackman said about that, precisely:
It's not "bad law" to disagree with Gorsucks.
...and Jacobson did not in fact mandate that Jacobson get the vaccine.
Of course not. How on earth would SCOTUS mandate that someone get a vaccine? The state of Massachusetts mandated that Jacobson get the vaccine. SCOTUS simply upheld that mandate.
Massachusetts, too, did not mandate that Jacobson get the vaccine. He did not in fact end up taking the vaccine. He paid a $5 fine for not getting vaccinated.
...which was getting off easy compared to the violent reaction of his son to getting vaccinated.
Massachusetts in fact, did mandate that Jacobson get the vaccine. That's why he was criminally prosecuted for not doing it.
You keep trying to pretend that it doesn't matter that the "mandate" didn't actually require that Jacobson get vaxxed, but the opinion's declarations as to the limited application of its holding contradicts you.
Because it's not true. The mandate actually did require that. I don't know how much more clear it can be than "Get vaccinated or get arrested" that vaccination is required.
I'm not aware of a general right to bodily autonomy. Abortion and contraception rights are based on decisions related to bearing children.
I think the "bodily autonomy" stuff comes up more in the context of 4th Amendment cases involving forcible DNA swabs and blood tests.
I'm not seeing anything in the constitution that would restrict a right to bodily autonomy to situations involving abortion and contraception. If it exists for those it presumably exists for others.
I didn't argue it was restricted to contraception and abortion. For example, you can't be forced to donate a kidney even if it is needed to save someone's life. On the other hand, you can be forced to take a drug test as condition for employment in the government or a blood test if a warrant based on suspicion of DUI is supported. The exact contours of the right to bodily autonomy aren't well established, but 1) there is no general right, and 2) Jacobson stands in the way of extending it to vaccines.
Jacobson was reqired to pay a $5 fine, after which he was free to go about unvaccinated. The decision does not stand for "you can force people to submit to vaccination and bodily integrity does not apply". Fior more on this read Blackman's draft of his article (which I've done only in part.)
MSU's policy allows people to choose to not be a student or employee and be free to go about unvaccinated. It's a stretch that bodily autonomy protects people from having to make that choice.
It's in fact perfectly normal for SCOTUS to distinguish between de minimus impositions on natural rights and consequential ones. And there is tailoring that is narrow, and tailoring that is not.
If the case were being heard today, it's possible that SCOTUS would apply strict scrutiny. (Or, as Rudy Giuliani might describe it, "the normal one.") But the actual case that establishes the precedent does not apply strict scrutiny; it applies the equivalent of rational basis review (without using that term, which didn't come into play until later). And lower courts are bound by actual on-point precedents rather than speculation about what the higher courts would do today if faced with the question.
The mandate might not change, but the government would have to justify it with evidence. Rational basis review doesn't require anything other than an unsubstantiated, but rational, argument as to why the law could be justified.
David....Thanks for the complete answer. To be honest, I think I like the idea of the government having to justify with evidence in a court of law the need for a vaccine mandate. Just for that reason, I would be much more comfortable with strict scrutiny. Not just here, but in other areas as well.
The unsubstantiated, but rational review argument does not sound like much of a barrier to unconstitutional action at all.
As Blackman advises in the advice you've disdained, you should read his article lest you make stupid mistakes. He's refuted this and it just won't do to declare your ignorance as if he hasn't.
Oh, I read Blackman's article. (You, admittedly, have not.) His argument is that everyone, including all the Supreme Court justices to have cited it over the last 116 years, has misunderstood it — except him. But nothing he writes can change what Jacobson actually says. And his continued talk about the size of the fine in Jacobson is just the sort of nonsense that someone who doesn't actually practice law would try to seize upon, despite the fact that absolutely nothing in the decision turned on the size of the fine. The Jacobson court upheld a vaccine mandate. Not a small fine for not getting vaccinated.
Moreover, his complaint that later Supreme Court cases broadened the holding of Jacobson — even if true — would not in the least help the argument that Jacobson doesn't support vaccine mandates. The most Blackman's article can be read as actually showing is that Jacobson doesn't sanction forcible vaccination. But since that's a complete strawman, so what?
No, actually Jacobsen upheld a small fine for not getting vaccinated. Recognizing this doesn't remotely depend on whether one does or does not practice law. Scale matters, and courts do not in their opinions always fail to recognize this. Sometimes they do, and precident creep is a real thing, and that is Blackman's argument for what happened with Jacobson, most particularly in the last year or so. If you disagree point out where he goes wrong, don't just wave your arms about dismissively w/o addressing specifics. That doesn't convince anyone.
False. Jacobson expressly upheld a vaccination mandate. You should probably read the opinion rather than relying on cherry picked portions of Blackman's cherry picked description of the case. Indeed, the fine wasn't even mentioned in the court's opinion. (It is mentioned in the syllabus describing the procedural history of the case.)
I would note that this is a phony distinction anyway. The argument that a state can infringe on someone's liberty if the penalty is only a small fine is nonsensical. If a state passed a law saying, "Each resident of the state must publicly praise the governor each morning; the penalty for violating this law is a 50¢ fine," a court would not, in fact, uphold this on the grounds that the statute allows someone to choose between paying 50¢ or praising the governor. Since the requirement of the law violates one's rights, the penalty, no matter how small, does also.
(I would note the irony that Blackman tried to argue in the Obamacare case that a $0 penalty was sufficient to make such a law unconstitutional.)
False? LOL! Jacobson paid a $5 fine and went unvaccinated, That's what happened.
The question was not what Henning Jacobson did — though I would note that you actually have no idea whether he went unvaccinated — but what the Supreme Court did in the Jacobson case. And the Supreme Court upheld a vaccine mandate, not a fine. The Supreme Court did not even mention the penalty. It just said that the state can mandate vaccination.
So David, I totally get what you are saying (I have now read Professor Blackman's paper). Can you respond to this: Professor Blackman maintains that Holmes 'retconned' ,I>Jacobsen in his Buck opinion. And that this retconning happened on two or three subsequent occasions by Justice Brennan and Justice Blackmun.
First: How do you define 'retcon'?
Second: Is this 'retconning' 4X (Buck, et al) a rational interpretation (and extension) of the line of cases Professor Blackman discusses?
Re: Jacobsen and vaccine mandate. The holding was that a fine is Ok in lieu of vaccination. That is what Professor Blackman writes, as a legal matter. SCoTUS never reached the question of compelled vaccination, correct? Professor Blackman cites the MA supreme court in their opinion upholding a fine, that compelled vaccine administration was not legal. The fine was an 'opt out'. Exemptions to avoid the fine were granted on a case by case basis.
Thanks for engaging on the rational review versus strict scrutiny question. I learned new things, and it helped clarify my own thinking.
This is literally the entirety of Holmes's discussion of Jacobson in Buck v. Bell:
The charge of retconning is based on Prof. Blackman's incoherent theory that the law in Jacobson didn't "compel" people to get vaccinated because it only penalized them for not doing so, instead of requiring the local sheriff to hold them down while the shot was administered.
In other words, it's about as meritorious as the rest of his scholarly output.
The thing is, even to the extent Blackman is less wrong, it has no relevance to the current situation, since nobody has proposed actual forcible vaccination.
Retcon is a shortened form of retroactive continuity, and refers to a literary device in which the form or content of a previously established narrative is changed. In common parlance it means trying to convince siomeone that the past is different than what you remember it to be. Or, when Holmes said, "The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes" he's lying about what Jacobson actually held, which was that Jacobson had to pay a $5 fine in lieu of being vaccinated, and the inflation of that to enable compulsory Fallopian tube cutting was a lie about the precedent.
This presents an interesting question of jurisprudence - cases are not reviewed de novo, they are based on precedent. Thus change in our constitutional jurisprudence is generally deliberate and not changeable with each Court.
Yes, this sometimes means you have old precedents not harmonized with new, making for a body of law that is not 100% self-consistent. But it is reliable.
Failing to follow this century-old feature we picked from the English system is one of many reasons why Thomas is unwise.
So assuming normal, precedent-driven jurisprudence, I do not expect that we would just switch scrutiny without a lot of foundational work on the precedent. So far there is only shouting.
False. And false.
...it is changeable with each Court, and it is profoundly unreliable.
The TX abortionists quivering over the (unlikely) fear that SCOTUS will overturn Casey could tell you that.
You think there have been no more abortion cases between then and now?
Because the trajectory of post-Casey precedents is such that they're right to be concerned.
You seem in a bad habit of just declaring things you want to be true or false. You should maybe consider mixing facts into your thinking.
Thanks for the advice, pal. It would be more welcome if you showed any sign of following it.
The pro-abortion bloc and Roberts will bid as little as possible to get a fifth, and it won't take much. The essence of Casey is going nowhere soon. All else is hysteria. Good for fundraising, I guess. But no way will illegality of abourtions be pushed back to just post-heartbeat. That's crazy talk.
...AND, to the extent they move the goalposts, there is no way SCOTUS will allow "retroactive" prosecutions of abortions they newly admit should never have been unprosectable, though that is the correct conclusion from them (probably only implicitly) admitting error.
You and your crystal ball have a good time.
But staying on topic, my post about post-Casey precedents was to show that you're wrong about the Court taking radical swings, even in this area you chose as an example.
It has been following precedent, even as it has built up a body of precedent that would allow it to change it's mind (whether a formal overrule or an informal narrowing).
That trajectory is why there is lots of uncertainty on where an abortion case will come out. At least to those without your detailed crystal ball.
"You will avoid making avoidable mistakes." - What makes you think that the judge is interested in avoiding this mistakes?
The legal world is back to the Wild West, and anything goes (even if it doesn't).
Ok...Vocabulary alert when you read Professor Blackman's SSRN paper (which I am doing).
Triptych
Usage: "Second, Henning Jacobson and Joseph Lochner framed their arguments in very similar terms. The former argued that “a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary, and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best.”304 Lochner raised a similar triptych. That case asked whether the Bakeshop Act was “an unreasonable, unnecessary, and arbitrary interference with the right of
the individual to his personal liberty, or to enter into those contracts in relation to labor which may seem to him appropriate or necessary for the support of himself and his family?”305"
definition: a work of art (usually a panel painting) that is divided into three sections, or three carved panels that are hinged together and can be folded shut or displayed open.
Yeah, I had to look that one up. 🙂
What it doesn't mean is three adjectives in a row.
If they were only adjectives you would be right. But he's arguing that "unreasonable, unnecessary, and arbitrary" are three tests.
Different strokes for different folks. I once looked extremely silly from misunderstanding the simplest of legal terms, but "triptych" causes me no grief at all. In fact, I own four, by Kunisada, Kunichika, Kiyochika, and Yoshitoshi. What I really want, however, is a vertical diptych - or "kakemono-e". (I bet Blackman never squeezes THAT term into a paper)
My Kunisada, but you must picture it a lot, lot more worn:
https://www.scholten-japanese-art.com/printsH/1713
I had to look that up too = vertical diptych 🙂
I think of triptychs mostly in terms of Eastern Orthodox icons, but after that in that work by Hieronymus Bosch with the creatures walking around in broken eggs. Though I'm not reall sure that the number of panels for that is three.
There is a really famous one by Mathias Grunewald called the Isenheim Altarpiece.
So a 116 year old law, which was so obscure that no one even remembered it until about a year and a half ago, is now being interpreted to basically overturn the rest of the US Constitution. And no one has any recourse. Businesses ruined, lives financially ruined, alcoholism and drug use up, child abuse up, obesity up, etc. Yet the solons here in the comments are having a discussion about “rational basis” and “strict scrutiny”.
Is it any wonder that people can’t stand lawyers?
Jacobson has been cited by the Supreme Court nearly 70 times and as recently as 2004.
Jacobson is not a law; it's a Supreme Court decision.
Um, it was not obscure among people who've studied either public health issues or the constitution. It was obviously obscure among the general public, but so are virtually all court decisions.
Recourse for what? Your recourse is to get vaccinated. Which of course does not ruin businesses, financial lives, cause alcoholism or drug use, child abuse or obesity. What the hell are you talking about?
Moral of the story: feed the birds and stay healthy instead.